FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

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[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tight_Lawfulness3206 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I completely disagree with the idea of destroying men’s only classes/universities.

We are not discussing you; we are discussing feminism. Mary Wollstonecraft is widely considered the first feminist philosopher, and her most famous work is built ENTIRELY on criticizing one fella for voicing an opinion that home education is more suitable to girls. To this one mentioning in passing, Wollstonecraft wrote a quite chunky book, arguing that not only girls should be taught in schools, but it MUST be the same schools boys are taught in, as anything less would be patriarchy and misogyny. And also, teaching children of both sexes together will make women better wives. Of course, around a century later, women said "We changed our minds", and started pedaling the idea that marriage by itself is basically slavery. No man EVER got ANY compensation for having his education facilities that men created for and by themselves and maintained for centuries, stolen and reappropriated against his will.

Well I noticed that if for example women don’t fit into certain institutions such as hard STEM majors that are often boy’s clubs (and notorious for misogyny in class) such as engineering, “biological differences that make women better at housework than critical thinking” get cited.

Cited by who? Or have you just made this up for the sake of being quippy? A knighted Nobel prize winner got fired for saying "the trouble with girls in lab is that... when you criticize them they cry".

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]MentathielPurple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, unless you want to claim that there's something about having a penis that makes you inherently worse at those things, there was a social gendered factor that influenced them to be less interested. Maybe the education is not tailored to male needs sufficiently, maybe they're not encouraged sufficiently, maybe they have gendered problems entirely unrelated to education that are taking up their mental bandwidth.

That's not to say you have to agree with specific prescriptions to remedy these things like quotas or whatever, nor should we expect complete equality in every subject. Just that it's worth examining cases of inequality to see if we're not discouraging potential talent from developing, because if we are we're losing out as a society. But maybe we're not, it is just worth to ask the question.

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[–]coping_manBlue Pill, Ding Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

someone (may be male, may be female) who

resents men
believes men as a whole oppress women as a whole and are actively lowering women's status / standard of living and not raising it and that men are skimming off the top of women's labor (i.e. they think "Hirewomen4free.com" is a real website and that we are getting fat off of women's labor)
believes that society can only improve if we keep redistributing more assets, wealth and status from men to women at each turn
views male sexuality as something contemptible that must be suppressed and punished.
denies that men have concerns on the same scale as women because men are "only worried about being humiliated" but will face no loss of life, property and limb and will get over it with no consequences if they are mature enough while women live in a perpetual somalian mad max wasteland where everyone and anyone could rape and kill them and society wants to support rapists.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]coping_manBlue Pill, Ding Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]coping_manBlue Pill, Ding Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well lets see, if you're asking about my own circle and face to face, #2 fits almost every woman i know who agrees with feminism including my mom and sister, #1 was the case in my high school class (im sure theres more but i can only speak for what i know when some woman in an open discussion in class says "Men have done absolutely nothing to improve society and women could easily fix all that"), #4 is just... my muslim-feminist mom, most muslim women in general and feminists who think that i'm a pervert if i want to have sex with a woman or hit on her and being straightforward is morally wrong like my mom calling me a r@p1$t for saying i wished i had a GF, and the last one is... almost all of them:

almost all of all the individuals in the groups i just mentioned feel this way about men's problems. if you told them men face some issue because of their gender - or worse, that women play a role in perpetuating it - they'd look at you like a schizo. You'd have a much harder time finding a feminist (or even a man) that didn't claim men's problems were trivial jokes compared to women's colossal trials and tribulations, even i rarely do. you've seen this idea that men face no gender-based issues too, you just have trouble recalling instances of it off the top of your head because we tend to bury these memories especially if they're so common. i don't hold it against you. but yes, sir, hateful [male] feminists aren't a boogeyman.

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[–]Enzi42 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can understand what you are trying to say (and honestly I would have been more specific and detailed in my original post had I really thought anyone would respond).

One can certainly have positive relationships between people with differing power dynamics, but I would argue that your examples of parents and children are nothing like the relationships between males and feminists (or more specifically people who believe that men are a "historically oppressive class" and women are their victims.

Parents love their children (at least ideally) and have their best interests at heart. Even though they have power over them, most of them try to act with the best interests of their offspring at heart, placing their wellbeing as a central goal to their actions. Likewise, children love and respect their parents due to the sentiments and actions I just described. Certainly, a power imbalance, but one that is understandable and is overcome due to the inherently goodwill on both sides.

People (because I apply this to both men and women) who see male humanity as an oppressor of female humanity are nothing like this at all. In fact, the closest I could imagine this being is the outlandish show Code Name: Kids Next Door or the anime Darling In the Franx where adults are specifically shown as oppressors of children, tormenting and using them for their own ends and there is a rebellion forged of children to fight against their tyranny. In both instances the power dynamics are shown to be insurmountable walls that preclude affection, the former example being glossed over but the latter showing this in explicit detail.

But to get to my point about male humanity and believers in male oppression being at odds with each other...

It's odd that you bring up parents and children because my main point actually was about the relationship between feminist parents and their sons/minor male loved ones. As I said, I do not think that people with this attitude secretly hate the men and boys in their lives, but they cannot have a positive relationship with them. It isn't that they feel malice towards them (apart from a few unhinged extremists) but there is a "limit" on their love that is not there when dealing with "normal" people.

Let me give an example (and this is an actual real example not a strawman; all of the ones I will provide here will be). Let's say you have a woman who deeply believes in feminist ideals. She wants to fight for women's rights and for them to keep those rights, and she is an ardent believer in the patriarchy that kept women suppressed for thousands of years and men in a position of authority and power, a position they often abused.

Let's say that this woman gives birth to a son. She loves this small child and would sacrifice her life for him in a heartbeat if it came to that. But her feminist beliefs have already infiltrated the relationship from the moment he took his first breath. She doesn't just worry about the usual negative outcomes that could affect or come from her child---she looks at the way he interacts with girls around him and worries Am I raising him so that he will be an effective asset/ally to girls and women around him? Is he going to be just one more patriarchal male who will be an obstacle for my gender? She cares more about how she can ensure he will be useful or just harmless to other female humans than she does about his wellbeing and how his path in life will affect him. She does not wish him harm at all, but if she had to choose between him getting ahead and thriving or giving way to women around him, she'd choose the women each time, because in her mind he's part of the "oppressor class".

Another example would be if that son was accused of sexual assault in his adult years. While it would break her heart, she would support his accuser due to the fact that she thinks of him as more likely to commit assault and her reluctance to doubt the story of another woman. While a normal mother would defend her son and try to cling to his innocence, a feminist mother would mourn over the circumstances but not really believe his innocent protests. Or at the very least she would remain noncommittal.

I've seen this happen before, I've seen women admit that their feminist beliefs would make them accept nothing less than their sons were guilty and there is an infamous case where a man committed suicide over accusations, only for his sister to endorse his accuser citing her feminist beliefs to believe women over her (in her own words) close sibling.

There are actually a lot more ways I think these types of people are poison to the vulnerable men in their lives, but I can't list them all right now. But I did want to explain myself further as to why I think a person cannot see men as oppressors and have any kind of non-harmful relationship with them. If I'd really thought this would get attention I would have been more detailed.

It may be a hardline approach, but I really think feminists and hardline women's rights activists shouldn't parent or have control over male children in any form. It will just lead to suffering and semi or total abuse as their sentiments bleed into their interactions with the children.

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That's what I meant to ask for and that's because I would think that should be the easiest to show an example of. You can't really show how you've helped men in your personal life, even if that was actually sufficient evidence against the point I was trying to make. Helping personal friends or family doesn't show you care about any men's causes or men in general.

My point was that you come here almost every day to argue with and belittle men who share their personal problems and grievances with how our society in general treats men. And hey, if that's what you want to do with your life, I honestly don't care. But to then after all that say in response to a question asking why men should care about feminism, that if you don't care about feminism, you don't care about other people and are therefore a psychopath? What does that make you then? Because you demonstrate almost every day how little you care about any of the men here or men in general with the comments you make. So how the fuck do you think you have any ground to reasonable ask men here to care about women and their general problems?

and you'd find the exact same problem with your own comment history

I never directly asked anyone to care about me or men's problems so I don't see how you think that is relevant to this conversation.

[–]Enzi42 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, lack of care for someone else can also be the sign of a person with healthy boundaries, and this is definitely the case here.

If someone cares little to nothing for your wellbeing and indeed is antagonistic and cruel at every opportunity, then you have no mandate to care about them or their interests.

As the person you responded to said, feminism (and definitely feminists) have made it very clear that their priority is the wellbeing and advancement of women's rights and interests at all costs. They don't care what they must do to achieve that, and if that means trampling over men, then so be it.

And you know what? That's okay. I don't like it by any stretch of the imagination, but I can understand that mindset and accept it into my overall understanding of how the world works.

What I cannot accept and refuse to abide is these same people demanding that men offer care, concern and effort on their behalf. Then framing it is having "empaty" or "compassion".

In actuality such a one sided bond is nothing but that of a parasite and its host. Just a very calculated attempt at exploiting men's better nature to draw them into serving a movement that ignores us at best and demonizes and harms us at worst.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Enzi42 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I try to be respectful and civil but I am beyond done with this "please, can't you just find it in your heart to have some empathy..." or "We're just asking you to be a good ally" bullshit.

9 times out of 10 people who use that language wouldn't know empathy or true allyship if it sank its fangs into their ass. They don't want empathy and they don't want allies. They want a legion of self sacrificing slaves who will go against their own best interests to the point of acting as willing emotional punching bags for the grievances and whining of their masters.

They use words like empathy and allyship and compassion because those are things we are raised to pursue and demonstrate. But they twist them to draw their target in and slowly wear down their defenses until they are ensnared.

I actually do have a tepid "respect" for the tactic in the same way I "respect" wasps that paralyze their prey and lay eggs on them to eat them alive. It's a ruthless and incredibly effective way of operating that enriches their cause. But it's also disgusting and terrible and should be avoided. And I'll call it out whenever I think I see it.

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor -4 points-3 points-2 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Its about empathy.

Feminism is a political activist movement that is dedicated to advancing women's rights.
You can think about it like other politcal activist movements that are dedicated to advancing the rights of other groups- this can include things like groups advocating for racial equality, or lgbtq+ acceptance.

You don't have to be a woman to support feminism.

You don't have to be gay to support LGBTQ+ rights.

You don't have to be black to support black rights.

It is an error to hold feminism to a different standard than any other civil rights movement. Feminism doesn't have an obligation to, nor does it have the resources to comprehensively support both men and mens issues... and that is okay.

What people do have, is empathy. We can empathize with women, just like we can empathize with immigrants, and like we can empathize with gay people. We can support agencies that advance the rights of these groups, even if we aren't a member of all or some of them.

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I work at a university daycare at one of the top universities in the country, and I would say in majority of cases it’s fine and healthy for the kids.

Typically they have professor parents who have breakfast with them in the morning, they get dropped off at 8-9, and go home at 3 or 4 and play at their park with their parents, then they all cook dinner together as a family (what i hear secondhand)

The kids love coming to school and playing with their friends. The only time I see it having a negative impact is on autistic/ADHD kids because they need one on one attention we can’t give them all the time and often don’t understand what is going on

But for me personally, I love kids but if I had to be around them 24/7 I’d become a psychotic raging monster of a person. That’s why a spouse who helps care for kids is a non negotiable. A lot of families I work with are so relieved and happy for the help, it motivates them to have more kids.

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The fact is that *most* married women in American, Canada, & other Western countries did not have paid employment until the 1970s.

In Western culture, women have always been expected to do the lions share of free domestic labour. Before the Industrial Revolution, not only did most women have no paid outside the home, but most men didn't either; most men were subsistence farmers. In most households, the man did all or most agricultural work while the woman did all or most of the housework. With industrialization & widespread urbanization, it became the norm for the man to work in a factory of office while the woman continued to take care of the home as she'd always done. Among married women with children, only a minority of poor women had paid jobs outside the home; this didn't change until the 1970s.

[–]ConanTheCybrarianBreadpill Woman 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

The fact is that *most* married women in American, Canada, & other Western countries did not have paid employment until the 1970s.

You must have a very loose definition of the terms "fact," "most," and "norm."

Leaving aside the inaccuracy about how farm larbor was divided, and the fact that men could never have had the time and energy to do the "paid" labor if they didn't have a wife managing the operations of their lives and the lives of their children for them....

This has never been true for working class families, first gen immigrant families, black families, Latino families, Asian families, etc. etc. And you telling yourself it was true will not make it so.

The forced nostalgia for a white flight, suburban, upper middle class life where dad goes off to make widgets and mom stays home, happily vacuuming in pearls was never a "fact" for "most" families.

Edit: accidentally hit enter before complete

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"Drastic shifts in sex roles seem to be sweeping through America. From 1890 to 1985 the participation in the work force of women between the ages of twenty-five and forty-four soared from 15 to 71 percent, with the pace of change tripling after 1950. At the end of the Second World War only 10 percent of married women with children under the age of six held jobs or were seeking them. Since then mothers of preschool children have thronged the job market: by 1985 the census had classified more than half of these young mothers as participants in the work force."

Women in the Work Force - The Atlantic

I was very careful in the language I used around farm labour because things were always complicated in reality, but the fact is that it was the norm for men to focus on heavy agricultural labour while women focused on housework.

In Western countries, the middle class + upper class have together made up the majority of the population since the 19th century or earlier, & in that majority women generally stopped doing paid labour outside the home when they got married; this only changed around 1970. My parents are immigrants from a non-Western country, & since I was born my mom has, as far as the conventional job market is concerned, only ever worked part time. In their part of the world, male breadwinners were very much the social norm until recently, just like in the West. Aside from his brief time in the military, my dad has hardly ever cooked in his life, & would barely know how to even if he had to. For non-Western men of his generation, cooking is seen as women's work. My mom sees the 2-income model as something imposed on our culture by the Communists, & doesn't understand why white American/white Canadian women are so adamant about working full time + splitting housework equally. Traditional gender roles are much stronger in African, Asian, or Latin cultures than in America.

> The forced nostalgia for a white flight, suburban, upper middle class life where dad goes off to make widgets and mom stays home, happily vacuuming in pearls was never a "fact" for "most" families.

Your paragraph here is completely irrelevant & has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I simply acknowledge the fact that, before the 1970s, *most* married women *were not* part of the conventional labour force.

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I feel this:

Middle and upper middle class white women deciding to stop doing (or minimizing) their free domestic labor in favor of having a paid job outside the home does not change the fact that most women have always worked.

could not have been more specific.

And the way the conversation usually goes here, it is literally men saying women didn't #work until the 1970s.

And other discussions about how women work 24/7, 365 are met with men saying SAHMs don't work, women dont work as much as men, etc.

So while it may have been obvious to you (which is great) I can't assume that's the case in most convos here.

But even if we are only talking about paid labor, your comments are still not universally true. I believe you that they are true culturally, but many women have done paid work throughout history as well (cook, housekeeper, governess, seamstress, matchmaker, launderer, sex worker, etc.). sometimes for monetary pay, sometimes for room and board, but implying it only happened in the 1970s is inaccurate no matter how you talk about it.

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There’s also a lot of jobs that women do that men just won’t take and vehemently don’t want. It’s like how when people say immigrants are stealing jobs. yet as someone who lives in a border state (California) all the Mexican immigrants here do jobs that are normally ones American people think they are too good for such as picking crops, housekeeping, yard work, and fast food/retail. Otherwise those jobs would be VERY short staffed.

I mentioned this in another comment on this thread, but I still find it crazy that a lot of people want an insanely high birth rate despite the fact overpopulation is just as devastating as underpopulation for a species, and half the workforce at home. We’re supposed to have 10 babies but with women staying at home instead of being nurses to help with this explosion of births? The healthcare field is already short staffed!!!

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Yes, and? I never implied otherwise.

That's beside the point. What makes you think that I don't understand that they're laborious? I know they're laborious; I also know they were generally combined with staying home with the kids.

Women who worked as seamstresses, cooks, domestics, &c. despite having families of their own were generally part of a poor minority. I don't think there was any point in Western history before 1970 or so where the *majority* of married women with children worked such jobs for money. Before industrialization, most women had no formal employment at all. After industrialization they usually had conventional "jobs", but only until marriage.

I was responding to someone who claimed that "Women staying at home with the kids across society was mainly an anomaly that happened in the 1950s." That claim is blatantly false. The fact is, in the Western world it was the norm for women to stay at home with the kids for centuries (likely millennia) until the 1970s.

I'm simply describing things as they were. Absolutely nothing in my comment suggests any moral or ethical judgement. In Biblical society, as in any pre-modern society, married women didn't generally work for money. Of course, they generally managed their own households. My beliefs aren't actually relevant to such a historical conversation, though for the record there's nothing in my belief system that forbids women from doing paid or public work, in fact there's nothing in any of my comments in this conversation that suggest any such thing. So far, I've only been making fact-based, value-judgement-free statements; you're the first one to bring my personal beliefs into this.

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I am not saying they are, I am saying these arguments just assume the link between suicides/dropping out of high school and issue with institutions.

These arguments stem from the fact that in current socio-political climate women are outscoring men in various fields. So they are not wrong in saying that men are doing badly under the current condition.

It could just be the result of men being more prone to mental illness or less intelligent. In theory.

Won't that lead to feminists arguing that men are the weaker and less intelligent of the two genders hence they need more protection than the superior gender ? In theory.

My issue is that when we talk about women empowerment we are not talking about male disenfranchisement. This doesn't need to be a zero sum game but people in power are making it one.

We are not getting funds for women empowerment, rather funds are getting diverted from common welfare schemes to women-centric ones.

When in reality there should be two schemes running.

but they are not good evidence that social structures are discriminatory against men/are not discriminatory against women. In my opinion. It could just be the result of men being more prone to mental illness or less intelligent. In theory.

In fact these are pretty good evidence that Patriarchy works for the top most powerful men and women in general. Just that women need to dance to the tune of the most powerful men.

The idea that men need to be strong, shoulder the responsibility, shouldn't cry, shouldn't check on their mental health are male chauvinistic ideals. Just remember that most men till the advent of democracy were brutally subjugated by a handful of powerful men and their female consorts.

So if you have beef against the patriarchy then you should be ready to shun the idea of men determined by the patriarchy.

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A lot of them probably would, but this hypocrisy exists on both sides in some kind of mutual spiral of polarisation. Feminists generally laugh at the idea that men(boys) experience systemic disadvantage in schools even though its basically scientifically established at this point, and instead claim that "women are just better" and "that the future is female" while they continue to support affirmative action for women as well. My own university only a few days ago appearantly told me I'm privileged as a man in STEM, even though studies suggest I experienced systemic discrimination for over two decades, which is so general that it more than compensates any kind of privilege I would experience in STEM specifically.

This however doesn't make the arguments bad themselves. The fact that men are struggling in school and commit suicide more often, along with plenty other such examples kind of undermine the feminist theory that men are privileged completely, regardless of their desperate attempts to protect their deeply flawed theory from this reality by reframing it as "patriarchy harms men too". Unfortunately both sides are so deeply entrenched in their own ideology that I doubt much productive will be done to help both men and women.

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experience systemic disadvantage in schools even though its basically scientifically established at this point

When this gets expanded, people sneak a lot of stuff into "boys". It's typically disobedient boys, that's first of all. Second of all, it's boys who lack concentration skills to sit for six hours. So, disciplined, obedient and intelligent boys do well. I am sorry to break it to the manosphere... But isn't it what academic environment supposed to favor and encourage? If you get up in the middle of the lecture hall and start making fart noises, you'll be escorted out of the lecture hall. Why are the rest of us supposed to accommodate this?

If you are not disciplined, not obedient or not intelligent, and you get filtered out - this is kind of the whole point of school.

support affirmative action for women as well

Just for the record: I don't support that. Encouraging women to go into STEM is reasonable, but not at the expense of men. Discrimination against men when it comes to hiring in STEM exists and it's one valid complaint.

struggling in school and commit suicide more often, along with plenty other such examples kind of undermine the feminist theory that men are privileged completely

No, they do not, because they could be an evidence of men's inadequacy. Canada has a higher per capita suicide rate than Bangladesh. But people in Canada are more privileged by every metric available. Just the fact that one group of people kill themselves more often does not prove anything about the objective reality, it could be a result of mental illness or delusion.

Struggle in school without any specific data points (like the one you reproduced in the previous paragraph) also does not prove anything. When the rest of us ask you "well maybe boys are just less capable/lacking in some way?" we are not being illogical.

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When this gets expanded, people sneak a lot of stuff into "boys". It's typically disobedient boys, that's first of all. Second of all, it's boys who lack concentration skills to sit for six hours.

Similarly you assume that demanding children to sit still for six hours is reasonable and beneficial towards their development and society at large. Based on what? And Similarly you assume that disobedience is always bad, yet most advancements in the quality of life we experience were the result of people being disobedient in the past, most of those people being men.

But isn't it what academic environment supposed to favor and encourage?

Not in the magnitude it currently does no. I think that the focus on obedience makes children not reach their full potential and that it stiffles their ability to think creatively and to dare to make mistakes. Where I live, kids are taught to be terrified to make mistakes resulting in serious issues later on.

If you get up in the middle of the lecture hall and start making fart noises, you'll be escorted out of the lecture hall. Why are the rest of us supposed to accommodate this?

That's an extreme example. And even if someone makes fart noises, it doesn't somehow justify teachers grading them less than someone who didn't do that yet submitted the same work.

If you are not disciplined, not obedient or not intelligent, and you get filtered out - this is kind of the whole point of school.

This oversimplifies things imo. Being obedient isn't an inherently good thing, and being disciplined or not can depend on a lot of things. Intelligent kids especially often are neither obedient nor disciplined. The reasons for this are more complex than "they are just lazy". The point of school is not to alienate intelligent kids just because they don't do perfectly as told. That's a huge loss of talent.

Just for the record: I don't support that. Encouraging women to go into STEM is reasonable, but not at the expense of men. Discrimination against men when it comes to hiring in STEM exists and it's one valid complaint.

Fair enough.

No, they do not, because they could be an evidence of men's inadequacy. Canada has a higher per capita suicide rate than Bangladesh. But people in Canada are more privileged by every metric available. Just the fact that one group of people kill themselves more often does not prove anything about the objective reality, it could be a result of mental illness or delusion.

Yes it could be. Or it could not be. It doesn't change the fact that feminists continue to make very doubtful claims with no real evidence backing it up.

Struggle in school without any specific data points (like the one you reproduced in the previous paragraph) also does not prove anything. When the rest of us ask you "well maybe boys are just less capable/lacking in some way?" we are not being illogical.

Well you are being illogical if you ask that question, because women quite frankly are not more intelligent than men. More importantly, the most intelligent people are more likely to be men.

So then you're probably arguing that it's about behaviour rather than intelligence but the problem with that is that there isn't such a thing as the "objectively right way to behave". You can blame anyone for misbehaving but that ignores the fact that what is understood as misbehaviour is not a neutral thing based on completely reasonable and objective metrics and it ignores that misbehaviour does not magically appear out of thin air but rather depends on context. So you're essentially saying that it can't be these other things that are problematic, the context or the current social norms, it must be individual boys themselves. Why? Like on what is this based?

I also don't lack specific data points. This has been proven countless of times. Boys are graded worse than girls for the same work, because teachers are biased.

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Similarly you assume that demanding children to sit still for six hours is reasonable and beneficial towards their development and society at large. Based on what?

This is a different branch of the conversation that has nothing to do with gender discrimination. I'd say it has more to do with discrimination of children whose parents can't afford sending them to a really good private school.

Similarly you assume that disobedience is always bad, yet most advancements in the quality of life we experience were the result of people being disobedient in the past, most of those people being men.

I... So don't assume that. I grew up in Russia, got arrested at 14 for something dumb, was fed political propaganda all day, and watched it slowly radicalize. I know a thing or two about utility of always questioning authority.

But, here is something beyond standard JP talking points that you absorbed without questioning: pulling a surprise Pikachu face when the authority bitch slaps you is retarded and juvenile.

More importantly, the most intelligent people are more likely to be men.

not the ones who "struggle in school". "They are dumb and lazy" is a much simpler explanation than "there is a systemic bias".

So you're essentially saying that it can't be these other things that are problematic, the context or the current social norms, it must be individual boys themselves. Why? Like on what is this based?

It could be. I am not the one who has a burden of proof, because I am not the one who introduced the arguments.

I pulled "individual responsibility" out of my ass as a reason for why these arguments are half-assed, shaky and vulnerable to attack - without any specifics, they might or might not be evidence of many men just being incapable of academic pursuits, depending on who you are talking to. Come on, STEM.

Boys are graded worse than girls for the same work, because teachers are biased.

probably because boys are less obedient. If you like someone else you'll grade them harsher.

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is a different branch of the conversation that has nothing to do with gender discrimination. I'd say it has more to do with discrimination of children whose parents can't afford sending them to a really good private school.

I disagree. It can be gender discrimination if it harms one gender more severely than the other.

I... So don't assume that. I grew up in Russia, got arrested at 14 for something dumb, was fed political propaganda all day, and watched it slowly radicalize. I know a thing or two about utility of always questioning authority.

But, here is something beyond standard JP talking points that you absorbed without questioning: pulling a surprise Pikachu face when the authority bitch slaps you is retarded and juvenile.

We are talking about kids as well. By definition kids are juvenile. I'm not pulling a surprise pikachu face, I'm simply aware of the problems I and other students faced as the result of our upbringing.

I don't understand how you can not see that the education system plays a huge role in what can for example happen in Russia.

I also don't listen to JP and think he's a grifter for what it's worth.

not the ones who "struggle in school". "They are dumb and lazy" is a much simpler explanation than "there is a systemic bias".

Nah, especially the ones who struggle in school. A simpler explanation is not a better explanation and again, the systemic bias is a proven thing.

It could be. I am not the one who has a burden of proof, because I am not the one who introduced the arguments.

Imo you are, because you hold the responsibility of what saying "well maybe boys are just worse" can result in, namely that certain problems aren't fixed. Burden of proof doesn't necessarily depend on who is saying what, but on the consequences of doing so. Me saying systemic bias contributes cannot really harm anyone much as I'm not advocating for affirmative action. But you saying "they are just lazy" can definitely harm kids and students, as nothing is done to address a possible problem that you assumed out of thin air isn't there.

I pulled "individual responsibility" out of my ass as a reason for why these arguments are half-assed, shaky and vulnerable to attack - without any specifics, they might or might not be evidence of many men just being incapable of academic pursuits, depending on who you are talking to. Come on, STEM.

Again, but we know that cannot be the sole explanation because we know boys are graded less for the same work. I believe educational institutions place to much importance on being well behaved rather than being intelligent.

probably because boys are less obedient. If you like someone else you'll grade them harsher.

That's one theory, but that hasn't ever been proven, just assumed. But I don't see why that matters either. A math teacher is supposed to grade you based on your skill in math, and not based on how obedient you are, how much he likes you and other personal subjective things the teacher personally feels. Raising someone and making them well behaved is something the parents should be in charge of, not some random teacher in school who has way to much power to decide on someone's future merely based on whether they like a student or not. I don't think they ever deserved to hold that power, I have seen them crush the dreams of people I know based on fast and inaccurate judgements. Often times they are also completely clueless about what is actually going on in the private life of the student and just like you assume they are just being lazy or too stupid when in reality they experienced traumatic things at home.

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Grigori Perelman, solved Poincare conjecture, the Millenium Problem. Lifetime bachelor, 57 years old.

The problem with "more recent" data analysis is:

one: it became much more widespread for people to be "in a partnership" without getting married; case in point - James Maynard, Fields winner of 2022. Technically does not have a wife, but has just enough of a woman in his life for you to weasel out and say "hey, this doesn't count".

two: for the last 70ish years, discoveries are almost never attributed to a person, and instead are attributed to research groups, institutions, or corporations.

three: a lot of people nowadays choose to keep their private life out of the public's eye.

Back in times when I analyzed innovators in a certain field between years 1795 and 1950, 40% of them died childless and never married. All but one were men.

Although it still doesn't hold water why people in the before-times don't count; I thought "the patriarchy" (i.e. reappropriation of women's labor by them filthy males) was stronger back then.

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A lot of people are crypto feminists, they have feminist ideals, though they may outwardly be against feminism and be opposed to labelling themselves as one. Its because feminism has sunk its claws so deep into our societies that its embedded in to the culture.

So a really good example of this is pushing women to pursue degrees and careers. I know many of you now are scoffing at the idea of this being feminism, and thats the point I'm making, its so deeply ingrained in our culture that we now think of it as the norm, but this does comes straight from classical feminist literature like simone de beavoirs the second sex, where she says women need to work so they can make their own money, do their own thing, and not be dependent on a man. Though this has undeniably negatively impacted our societies from a number of angles.

Its simply doubled the amount of workers in many areas of the job market, its a big factor for why many sectors are saturated today and many of these sectors still haven't adapted to it. Its led to the decrease of marriage and families. Its propagated this individualistic mentality, everyone is chasing self satisfaction instead of the goals of the family and community. Its led to an increase in mental illness among women, women in the workplace report higher rates of depression, anxiety, etc., compared to male co workers. Its led to partner dissatisfaction in women, women are hypergamous, pursuing career means they eventually decrease their dating pool of who they find attractive and who finds them attractive. These are just a few ways its impacted society negatively.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]CokeBooty 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

> Women should get married and depend on a man to provide for them, most men would love to provide for a woman who's dedicated to them and the family.

if that was a safe option, then women would already being doing it

you don't have to convince people to take the best available option for them

> Women don't want to provide for men, they're not biologically wired that way

if men are biologically wired to provide for women why do they hate providing?

why is men providing so rare?

why do they want to be 50/50?

why do they hate golddiggers?

why do women tip more?

> Thats why even when women start earning six figures, they don't take the responsibility of providing for a man and her family,

how do women with husbands and families earn 6 figures without providing for their man/family?

you're telling me her salary goes into her account and she spends it all on herself while the man provides for her and the kids?

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

if men are biologically wired to provide for women why do they hate providing?

Because the redistributionist safety net system forces men to provide for women other than their wives and daughters at the expense of their wives and daughters; gold equivalent of post-WW1 reparations gets transferred from US men to US women every three years through Social Security system alone; the primary contributors being married men; primary beneficiaries female divorcees and singles.

why is men providing so rare?

Twenty-three percent of American married women between ages of college graduation and retirement have zero wage income; the estimate has been stable for the last 30 years.

why do women tip more?

Cuz it's not their money, obvs.

how do women with husbands and families earn 6 figures without providing for their man/family? you're telling me her salary goes into her account and she spends it all on herself while the man provides for her and the kids?

On herself AND her children. In current year, men have zero input on wether or not a woman becomes a mother. A man cannot force his wife to get pregnant, get an abortion, or not get pregnant from another man; the only thing he can do in all and any of these instances is file for divorce.

edit: typos

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

how is a biological impulse limited like this?

Indeed, how could a biological impulse of tribal hunter-gatherers evolve to support members of one's own tribe.

men have a biological drive for sex, but that isn't limited to only their wife, for instance.

There's a level of genetic similarity that dictates optimal sex drive. It's way lower than between close relatives, but significantly higher than random. Not exactly the article I was looking for, but just as an entry evidence:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0162309588900258

The paper I was looking for outright stated that role of genetic similarity in mate selection is so significant that random-choice models are basically useless.

In current year, men have zero input on wether or not a woman becomes a mother.

as they should

Therefore, this assertion: "you're telling me her salary goes into her account and she spends it all on herself while the man provides for her and the kids?" - is baseless. The baseline is not "she spends all her money on herself"; the baseline is "she is a single mother".

[–]LadyLazarus2021 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CokeBooty 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

if that was a safe option, then women would already being doing it

you don't have to convince people to take the best available option for them

If that were true, fat people wouldn't exist.

why is men providing so rare?

Men are still majority sole or primary breadwinners

why do they want to be 50/50?

Because feminism has told them thats good

why do they hate golddiggers?

providing is not the same as being swindled by golddigging whores

why do women tip more?

has nothing at all to do with the topic, why would men give away money to someone thats not their woman?

how do women with husbands and families earn 6 figures without providing for their man/family?

The marry men who make more or as much as them, in majority of these cases the man is still the primary breadwinner, in minority of cases its 50/50, in cases where the woman is the primary breadwinner she's significantly more likely to file for divorce.

[–]Tight_Lawfulness3206 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tight_Lawfulness3206 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I would disagree that it’s negatively impacted our society. Especially since the 1950s was just one decade where women stayed at home, (and it was mostly wealthy white women, Black/Latina women still had to work). Do I think women should aim to be corporate CEO girlbosses? Naw. Do I see lots of women who love their jobs? Yes. Especially women who enjoy stuff like being nurses, teachers, etc. it’s not this dichotomy between high flying girl boss and trad wife. A lot of women CONTRIBUTE to family and community with their jobs. It’s why I’ve worked with a lot of housewives who work with me as a “pocket money” job because it gives them more purpose. Especially since kids get older. Especially in jobs like at local libraries and recreation centers. That’s probably what I’m going to go into after college, something where I can work with kids and families in my community.

I think if the conservatives want us to have a massive birth rate of an impoverished African country, we’re gonna need a LOT more employees at jobs. Especially when the US is a mostly service job based economy, and at all the service jobs near me it’s mostly women. Most women work pretty low paying jobs anyway, and I can imagine if we had a better economy a lot would quit to be stay at home moms besides the ones who prefer working. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2011/12/working-moms

I also have seen TONS (I’ve worked in childcare for years) of stay at home moms who got fucked over in divorces. Even ones in traditional religious marriages who got cheated on and dumped. My mom was a stay at home mom my whole life until she went back to work recently after she got bored. She told me that even if I choose to be a stay at home mom, that’s perfectly okay and respectable but I need a backup degree (she went to college) in case anything happens.

[–]CokeBooty 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Theres a difference between women working odd jobs for pocket money vs pursuing degrees and careers. Theres always been women working some jobs, like on farms, mid wives, sewing, cleaning, etc., but not all women worked, and women weren't going out to earn a living, they weren't pursuing careers. The priority was always the family, priority was to get married and start a family first and take care of them.

it’s not this dichotomy between high flying girl boss and trad wife.

It really is and we clearly see that today, sure maybe we can point out some exceptional cases, though I'd argue even if we look at working mothers they have to compromise on many aspects of being a mother and their career. But we can look at marriage stats, significant decrease in marriage, increase in average marriage age, maybe you can say theres other contributing factors, but the number of single childless women is significantly increasing. Maybe you've heard the study that estimates by 2030 45% of working age women (25-44) will be single and childless, this study specifically was done by an investment banking company, Morgan Stanley. We quite literally have financial institutions and businesses that are studying and trying to adapt to the new normal, the downfall of families and rise of single childless women, these are the new target consumers for big businesses.

Its not a left vs right issue, its not about conservatives, every society needs a positive birth rate to survive, all of the west right now has a rapidly declining birth rate, which means soon society will not be able to support itself. Governments are just slapping band aids on the issue by increasing immigration, but that is not sustainable, there isn't an infinite supply of immigrants you can import, and it causes much more issues of its own.

Ironically women pursuing careers has contributed to the worsening economy, and had also taken away the choice from women whether they want to work. Women don't get married and decide to pursue careers, today they pursue careers and later may meet someone and get married. Often they decide to both continue working because they assume they'll make more money so its better, but because more and more couples are doing this, it has become the norm and shifted the economy that way, now its becoming more and more that women don't have the choice anymore whether they want to work or be a stay at home mother.

About SAHM being more depressed than working moms, thats because the SAHMs today are chronically at home, and we saw this from everyone during the pandemic, being locked at home for long periods of time increases rates of depression. It used to be that mothers took care of the family at home but also were involved in the community around them, but today our sense of community have also been eradicated.

About divorce, its well known that 70%+ of women initiate divorce, and courts are in favour of women. Often when its said that mothers get screwed over in court, it usually means they don't get equalization of assets or alimony, which isn't being screwed over, they're not owed that, it doesn't belong to them. It used to be that women that divorced or widowed would have their family and community to rely on, but again out society today has done away with families and community.

[–]Tight_Lawfulness3206 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You’re still avoiding the point I’m bringing up about the fact if people want us to completely overpopulate this country, once again we will need a TON more nurses and teachers. Many essential fields employ women, and if something like covid happened again with 10x the population and yet 50 percent of the medical workforce is out being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, it’d be ugly. And google all the countries with the highest birth rates. They’re not trad paradises with prosperous economies and blissful homemakers making apple pies. They’re full of poverty/disease and total shitholes.

And at least for me being a zoomer woman, firsthand I can say that men don’t want to settle down and start families. My female friends are desperately freaking out about their biological clocks because finding a man willing to start a family is like pulling teeth. It’s always “babe I’m sorry IDK if I wanna commit I’m not in the headspace maaan I wanna live with my bros” It takes two to tango, and this isn’t just about the women.

I agree with your point about community. I think the decline in religion has been devastating for our society, especially since we do need morality. Casual sex culture has been awful as well. People have zero impulse control due to technology.

And being a midwife/sewing/cleaning are still full time jobs. I think technology has played a huge part in people getting married less and having less kids because I know plenty of women who met men in college and became mothers after a few years of working. Now that zoomers are a little more antisocial and have less social skills, I think they are less likely to connect with coworkers and people around them because their noses are buried in their phones. (I’m guilty of this)

And I’m a bit optimistic, but I genuinely think with all this birth rate freaking out, I think there will be an upward trend in people breeding and having kids. Especially with people my age freaking out about it and bringing it up.

[–]CokeBooty 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Many essential fields employ women, does not mean they require women, they can be easily replaced by men. Ironically majority of teachers used to be men not too long ago. The majority of women are not in essential fields, they're whats called BS jobs, like administration, managerial positions, receptionists, etc. It is true that there needs to be an overhaul of the system, because the system has changed throughout the years to accommodate societies new ideals. Like the scope of responsibilities and requirements of nurses has broadened throughout the decades, and nursing as an academic discipline is relatively new itself. The education system even needs to change, people are in school for too long learning useless things, which is why they have a hard time growing up. Many fields require further education after a useless bachelors degree. We need to think about homeschooling as an option for elementary education.

And google all the countries with the highest birth rates. They’re not trad paradises with prosperous economies and blissful homemakers making apple pies. They’re full of poverty/disease and total shitholes.

We're not talking about having high birth rates, we're talking about increasing birth rates, because at the moment almost all developed nations are below replacement level of birth rate, and the only way they are increasing populations is through immigration, this is not sustainable.

firsthand I can say that men don’t want to settle down and start families.

The issue is more about them not willing to get married, or commit to their women. According to studies, the majority of men do aspire to be fathers

Contrary to our expectations, almost all of these men did have the expectation to become a father in their early twenties—only 6% of them never reported the expectation to become a father between age 22 and 47

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s43545-023-00642-6#Sec13

I agree with you its an issue, dating has ruined society, marriage and divorce laws have ruined marriages. We should promote religious only marriages, and limit dating. Both men and women, the more they date, the less they are capable of pair bonding, meaning the less they're likely to commit, and increased risk of divorce and infidelity.

[–]LadyLazarus2021 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Many essential fields employ women, does not mean they require women, they can be easily replaced by men. Ironically majority of teachers used to be men not too long ago.

(And as women proved first during WW2, women can also replace men).

The majority of women are not in essential fields, they're whats called BS jobs, like administration, managerial positions, receptionists, etc.

(Teachers are essential. Think the pandemic might have taught you that. Parents sure learned they were. So are doctors, which is now 60/40 men women. Lawyers are now 50/50. And nurses, majority female, are essential - ESSENTIAL- to patients surviving. https://nursing.maryville.edu/blog/quality-of-care.html

But go on, tell me how all these teachers are in all these nonessential BS jobs - because we KNOW how much corporations like “make work” jobs.)

people are in school for too long learning useless things, which is why they have a hard time growing up. Many fields require further education after a useless bachelors degree. We need to think about homeschooling as an option for elementary education.

(Lol, lmao. Yah my husband used to disparage soft sciences and English until he had his ass handed to him getting his D.Sc. for bad writing skills. And then I taught him how to write. He now reads his subordinates’ work - all IT - and cringes. He readily admits that the help I provided him from all my soft sciences has facilitated his advancement.

Right now most Americans read at an 8th grade level and don’t even let me get to math. And you want to force even more kids to be homeschooled where the don’t have access to socialization and to advanced information? My kids read at the eighth grade level in elementary school. That’s fine more jobs for them and less competition)

I agree with you its an issue, dating has ruined society, marriage and divorce laws have ruined marriages. We should promote religious only marriages, and limit dating

(Nah. I don’t believe in god. Keep pushing it and watch people run in the other direction.)

[–]CokeBooty 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

(And as women proved first during WW2, women can also replace men).

go back and read the thread, the point flew over your head

(Teachers are essential. Think the pandemic might have taught you that.

The pandemic showed us why teachers are NOT essential, and actually how corrupted the education system is. Lots of parents actually got to see what their kids were doing in class, and they weren't happy.

So are doctors, which is now 60/40 men women.

This is one of issues I was talking about where the system hasn't adapted to the increase in women in the workplace. Med schools are taking in more women to the point where women are the majority of med students now. The issue is that women shortly after becoming doctors go part time or leave the practice all together, 40% of female physicians leave or go part time within 6 years of completing residency, they leave to start a family and to be mothers. Not only that, but female physicians don't pursue certain specialties especially surgery specialties, so they mainly go into like family medicine, pediatrics, geriatrics, OBGYN, dermatology, and other primary care specialties, and this is causing many other specialties to die out and become dependent on aging physicians. So to summarize, the majority of med students are women, they are taking up seats in med school, then the majority of them only go into specific specialties, and then leave or go part time soon after. This is gonna be disaster in the near future.

(Lol, lmao. Yah my husband used to

dont care about your life story

Right now most Americans read at an 8th grade level and don’t even let me get to math.

That proves my point, if you look up rankings of the worlds top education systems, the US is high on the list, usually #1, despite this Americans can barely read, shows that teachers are non essential.

Nah. I don’t believe in god.

Could have guessed

[–]Planthoe30Purple Pill Woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

I got banned from r/askfeminists because apparently im not a feminist??? That was news to me.

The question was: What is your honest opinion - can a woman be happily single and alone forever?

My answer was:

I personally don’t do well by myself mentally I think it really depends on the type of person you are. I have one friend who is in her fifties and never married and no kids and she enjoys her life. She likes to go out and have a good time, she appears happy but she does say there are times she regrets not settling down/having kids but that she is overall happy. I wonder if she would feel that way when she is in her later stages of life but her personality type I think is what determines her ability to be happy. She is very outgoing, independent and mentally tough. She makes friends easily, and I think that is probably what keeps her happy. I had an aunt who was single never married until the day she died and she also seemed relatively happy. She was also a very positive and outgoing person who made friends easily so I think being on your own it’s possible to be happy but dependent on your personality.

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I am going write this long take because I would otherwise be banned from feminist subs, even though I am a supporter.

I support sane feminism that pushes for equality (not equity) between women and men. But I think a significant part of feminism lost its way when feminists pushed for the oppressed vs oppressors framework such as the “patriarchy.”

The assumption of a clear demarcation between the two groups (i.e. men are oppressors) was not only incorrect but also divisive. Not only it failed to resonate with men’s experience, it also provided a justification for “edge ladies” to be misandrist under the guise of feminism. Subsequently it should be no surprise why many men consider feminism anti-male.

Furthermore the intersectionality framework fails to fix this problem. While intersectional feminists would argue that there are many axes of oppression, they would still put men in general in the oppressor class in the gender axis. And men see through this attempt to obfuscate the vilification of men.

If feminism is to regain a broad popular support, it must do away with this radical and divisive framework and return to the fundamental message of equality. Alienating a half of population based on their gender is not a winning strategy.

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You said women working means no kids. But literally women have been working and having kids. Hell women entered the mainstream workforce in the 70s and all we got was the biggest economic expansion in history for the next 30 years. Oh and the millennial generation which is actually a bigger population than the Boomers (who ironically are named after a baby boom).

Now, do you genuinely believe I meant that as soon as a woman enters the workforce, she is bound by the universe to not have kids?

See if you were in good faith, you would understand that women entering the workforce is a constant in every country where the birth rates are plummeting.

Socio-economic factors vary, education levels vary, religious adherence varies, but quite literally the only unchanging predicator for dropping fertility is the rise of feminism.

Speaking of millennials;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna27827

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Again:

Biology isn’t fair.

Men can dominate us in a fight. Most men can murder or severely injure most women with relative ease. Men use this physical dominance to do things like jobs they humiliate women for not doing, like construction work “we built your roads!!!!” Or to violently subjugate women like in the Middle East.

Women’s difference is that we carry kids. We get pregnant. Men don’t. It’s not fair, but it is what it is.

Perhaps women should take responsibility and not have children with men who don't want them.

How do we know a man doesn’t just want to have biological children without the responsibility of taking care of them? There was a passport bro here who said his dream was to find a woman abroad, have a kid with her, leave, and then send money every month and visit from time to time so that he could have biological offspring without the work involved. This was a nerdy virgin dude. How do we know a man doesn’t have this dream in mind?

[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Biology isn’t fair.

What does any of this have to do with reproductive rights? Why should a man have to pay for a child you alone chose to have? And if you would deny me my reproductive rights, why should I care about protecting yours?

Most men can murder or severely injure most women with relative ease.

In America about 500 homicides are committed by women each year and most of their victims are men. And if she can't do it, she gets another man to do it.

There was a passport bro here who said his dream was to find a woman abroad, have a kid with her, leave

And there are women who dream of tricking, defrauding, and sexually assaulting men and boys into fatherhood they never wanted and making them pay child support. And some of them act on it. You'll find threads on Reddit and elsewhere where women are advised to stop taking the pill without telling her husband or poke holes in condoms, and others who brag about doing it. Difference is, the law protects women who do it.

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we have to split housework

I’m a little out of touch, but I don’t think ‘keeping count’ is the key. I like my things organised. My wife is happy if first it’s clean, then ‘out of the way.’ For example cutlery. It’s not hard to pack a dishwasher with all the knives together. Forks. Spoons. Etc.. Yet her and the kids just jam it in. Do I keep count? No. As it’s easier to change myself, than encourage change in others. So when I’m home, I don’t let anyone else do the dishes. If I do, I remind them it’s to be done my way. In context to responsibilities, if I want things a certain way, it’s my responsibility to maintain it. I could explain the efficiency of it, but it would be to no avail. It’s far simpler to change my processes, to account for other’s predilections.

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Egalitarianism/humanism is "equality for all". Feminism is about rights for women.

When BLM was a thing, we all understood why saying "All Lives Matter" was an issue, and yet that same logic is lost on us when talking about feminism for some reason.

Also, "feminazi" isn't real and is a really stupid term given that nazis were generally misogynistic.

The vast, vast majority of feminists don't want, or even talk about wanting, men to suffer (beyond the occasional "castrate rapists because they can't be reformed", or "kill all men" chants), but even with those examples, woman-haters proudly brag about the details of the offenses: how they want to rape women, enslave them, torture them, etc, and by comparison, feminists just use a slogan and it is insanely rare for any of them to actually commit any real harm to any man in the name of misandry, especially an innocent man.

It's like that saying, "The worst misogynist's dream is a world where women are suffering and enslaved. The worst misadnrist's dream is a world where men just aren't there."

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[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, you had to go to the SCUM manifesto just for a quote that doesn't even give details, while incels casually describe wanting to rape women to death and make them breeding stock, millions of men watch porn videos of abuse, and men used to get needles shoved up their wives' eyesockets/skulls if she had too much personality. All of the quotes you listed gave no details beyond the most objective, because the misandrists' dream isn't the suffering of men, it's not having to think about men/issues men cause. Even castration threats don't talk about the details of how great castration would be due to the suffering, but simply are about the concept of men's threat coming from their fertility. Which is a pretty great example, as I said, of the oppressor/oppressed differences.

"Female separatist colonies" have a wonderful tendency to fall apart as soon as they run out of men's money.

One of the first Womyn's Lands started in 1870, and continued literally until the last woman died at the old age of 101 in the 1980s.

Of the Womyn's Lands that started up in the 1970s when it was the rage to start them, at least 20 in the USA alone are still around today (of the notable ones, that's more still running that ones that have shut down), many with hundreds of Acres each. Womyn's Lands that do shut down tend to only due so because of bomb threats, protests from conservatives and trans women, or the community not advertising online enough and lacking younger women to take over as the older women age out and die. Umoja, Kenya is also doing just fine, all things considered, with a growing population. Women are also more likely to work in and donate to charities, so the money and labour they are using is often donated from other women.

[–]KentuckyCriedFlickinCircle Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

and men used to get needles shoved up their wives' eyesockets/skulls if she had too much personality.

(YAAAAAAWN) No. At no point in history was it legal for a man to shove needles up his wife's eyesockets because he is her husband. This procedure was performed by doctors due to its therapeutic effects on patients that otherwise tried to shatter their own skulls by bashing them at walls and chew off medical personnel's fingers. More than 40% of patients of this procedure were men, since men with mental illness have - to this day! - way lower survival rates than women, and many just don't survive until the moment that such interventions would be considered.

Umoja, Kenya is also doing just fine

Umoja is not a female separatist community; it widely employs male simps in to chop their firewood, build their houses and fences, toil their land, and among other things - guard their perimeter! The economy of the "community" relies mostly on being located on tourist route and selling unlicensed booze, because the government has a million and one other concerns to solve before a bunch of man-hating hags scamming stupid foreigners with cheap terrible beer.

At least a couple "womyn's lands" I investigated were founded by heiresses.

a quote that doesn't even give details, while incels casually describe wanting to rape women to death and make them breeding stock,

You don't even give any quotes at all. Bindel's description was very detailed and quite contemporary; I just didn't want to bother you with posting it in its entirety, otherwise you'd tell me that she is irrelevant for some other reason. Too old, too white, whatever. This is feminism thread; no effort goes un-dismissed.

[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I had written up a whole response to this, but then I realised that that would be claiming a burden of proof that's not mine. And, every time I respond to your claims, you shift the goalposts. So, your turn. You made so many claims here that you will need to back up before we can move forward:

Lobotomies were only performed for real reasons.
Lobotomies weren't ever performed for misogynistic reasons
Men with mental illnesses have a lower survival rate than women (keeping in mind that not all suicide, death, or death-by-stupidity is mental illness-related, so you can't just use the suicide or standard life-expectancy rates to defend this one).
The fact that a woman inheriting a land and then continuing to run it successfully for decades means she and none of the rest of the colony deserves it. (Keeping in mind that for many years in many countries, and still in many today, men physically and legally forced women out of owning land. It's like if someone punches you in the face for years, and when they walk away, you make fun of them for not sticking around with you).
The fact that the Ugowa community sells alcohol, tourism, and beadwork, (that last one being one of their primary exports that are very popular and highly used in that region of Africa) is abnormal for small Kenyan villages to the fact that it would somehow be a sign of failure to them.
The amount of men working in Ugowa and the idea that no women do any of the building or farmwork ever.
The quality of Ugowa beer.
Ugowa's women's need for men to protect them from non-human threats (would be pretty ironic if the only thing a woman needs a man to protect her from is other men. Kinda defends the need for such a settlement).

And for quotes about misogynists, just look at IncelTear. They compile millions of them.

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Lobotomies were only performed for real reasons. Lobotomies weren't ever performed for misogynistic reasons

"men [husbands] used to get needles shoved up their wives' eyesockets/skulls if she had too much personality" - is false. This is my point.

It in turn consists of two points:

"husbands used to get needles shoved up their wives' eyesockets/skulls" - is false;

Or (technically "And", but let's soften)

"used to get needles shoved up their wives' eyesockets/skulls if she had too much personality" - is false.

The first ("husbands used to..."), if it was true, would require one of the following:

EITHER, lobotomies performed on women, AND ONLY on women, required no medical mandate, and could be done at the request of their handlers (husbands) akin to asking a vet to spay a dog (1);

OR, men, AND ONLY men, had medical mandate over their spouses (2).

The second ("if she had too much personality"), if it was true, would require one of the following:

EITHER, there's an established set of precedents of men dragging their wives to brain-snip if they had too much personality, and not doing so if they did not have too much personality (unfalsifiable; "personality" is not a measurable scalar);

OR, "too much personality" was a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis. You guessed it, for women, AND ONLY for women (3).

Finally (4), all of this ( 1 OR 2 OR 3 ) happened under full and total legal mandate of the law, in a country where women have been voting for all elected positions of power for the better part of two decades.

So, Yes, if we're about to see who is throwing burden of proof off too much, NOTHING in the link you provided, written by "Social Studies of Medicine PhD", confirms any of the four positive claims outlined.

I think I'll stay in line some more before carrying burden of proof for claims that you put in my mouth.

And for quotes about misogynists, just look at IncelTear.

Good, you know how to use the Internet. You can also look up what women say about "males" on the internet.

[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

EITHER, lobotomies performed on women...

It doesn't require any of those. It required a status quo, not an ultimate. In the same vein, saying "men in Africa rape little girls because they are convinced it will cure them of AIDS" is not saying men ONLY rape them for this reason or that ONLY men rape. My claim was that there was a status quo that if a man doesn't like his wife's personality, it was possible and not unlikely for him to send her off to the doctor, lie about her, and get the doctor to perform the procedure, and there wasn't as big a systemic issue of women doing the same to their husbands (since women's words weren't taken as seriously and it was easier to brush off a normal women as crazy).

Every single one of your "Only"s can be rejected because of this. It doesn't have to be "Only" to be systemic and targeted. For example, black people aren't the only people with kinky hair (some white people can have it too), but the trope of afros being considered inherently bad and trashy is targeted at black people.

"too much personality" was a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis. You guessed it, for women,

Look up the etymology for the condition "hysteria" which comes from the description word "hysteric", which comes from the Greek word "Hustera", which means...

While "hysteria" generally refers to anyone, the idea of the disorder comes from the body part it was named after acting up and causing the behaviour.

You can also look up what women say about "males" on the internet.

Yeah, the vast majority of it doesn't involve detailed descriptions of rape and bloodied beatings. The focus of a man-hater is freedom from the issues they trope men to cause. The focus of the woman-hater is the eroticized suffering of women. Even femdom and castration/male abuse porn is primarily created by and for men.

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yes i would love to! unfortunately i don't know a good intro since it has been a few decades since i started reading about feminism (shout out to Jane magazine) so i'm just going to dive in:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226895828_A_Paradigm_of_Philosophy_The_Adversary_Method

https://www.amazon.com/Communion-Female-Search-bell-hooks/dp/0060938293/ref=sr_1_7

https://www.amazon.com/Down-Girl-Kate-Manne-audiobook/dp/B07D3CC9LV/ref=sr_1_4?

https://www.amazon.com/Will-Change-Men-Masculinity-Love/dp/0743456084/ref=sxts_entity_rec_bsx_s_def_r00_t_aufl?

loved reading these deeper dives into eating disorders, violence and gendered differences in self-harm vs harming others:

https://www.amazon.com/Unbearable-Weight-Feminism-Western-Anniversary/dp/0520240545/ref=sr_1_1?

https://www.amazon.com/Violence-Reflections-National-James-Gilligan/dp/0679779124/ref=sr_1_1

everyone who reads this says it is a life-altering read on what abuse actually is, but it is infuriatingly gendered, which genuinely sucks and puts a lot of people off (the author says both men and women abuse and are abused, but chose to gender the title due to his personal experiences in the field):

https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

absolutely bonkers compilation of research on what's happening to men online:

https://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Hate-Women-Misogyny/dp/1728290902/ref=sr_1_1?

and this fun little study is something that really changed the way i think about gender when I first read it:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8485292_The_Heroism_of_Women_and_Men

another one -- this isn't directly about feminism, but about "tough love" culture (which men push bc they are socialized to think it's weak/feminine to be any other way) and how harmful it is for us as human beings:

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/0374518599/ref=sr_1_14?

Also not directly feminist (the author actually got in trouble for talking about how his wife types his essays at one point) but this theory of how to think about the world and care for life and the planet is one of the best things i ever read (and would absolutely be considered feminist philosophy even though the author didn't identify that way when it was written in the 70s). it is central to my philosophy of who i am as a loving feminist who wants the world to be healthier for everyone:

https://www.amazon.com/World-Ending-Fire-Essential-Wendell-Berry/dp/1640091971/ref=sr_1_4?

(its specifically the essay "the unsettling of america" which i tried and failed to find a free pdf of)

Also happy to recommend movies if you prefer that medium! i'm a cinephile so.

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[–]spanglesandbambiPink Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]spanglesandbambiPink Pill Woman 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]spanglesandbambiPink Pill Woman 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 2 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]spanglesandbambiPink Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Women are projected to surpass men income wise in the west and are going to college more often yet I encounter so many women who still yell and demand I pay for everything. They have their own jobs, tout they are independent feminists, why can't they pay? Ive had too many negative interactions with outspoken feminists. I've even dated women who made significantly more than me openly boast how successful they are only to have a full on tantrum when I suggest we split the bill, no joke.

Also, people are waking up and realize how toxic it is. You'd think younger generations would be more progressive with feminism but they aren't as shown below. People are tired of feminism, including myself. It's just a tool to punish and extract resources from men. I'm all for equal rights just not feminism.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/01/gen-z-boys-and-men-more-likely-than-baby-boomers-to-believe-feminism-harmful-says-poll

I really think the main issue is that most feminists are hypocrites

[–]spanglesandbambiPink Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]TermAggravating8043 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[S,M] -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

Comments

Why doesn’t he make her a full time homemaker who doesn’t have work outside the home?

Title	FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	5
Comments	482
Date	February 10, 2024 5:00 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1anktiz/feminism_weekly_discussion_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/feminism-weekly-discussion-thread.1245063 https://theredarchive.com/post/1245063