Why is sex framed as something a woman “gives” and a man “takes”?

Ylduts · 2023-02-10T09:58:34+00:00

Most women can have sex whenever they want, most men cannot.

AceArguments · 2023-02-10T15:07:31+00:00

Men have this thing with framing everything in terms of winning or losing, conquest or submission. Like a guy can't be a normal guy. He's either an alpha or a beta. You can't just win at life, you have to make it your bitch. You can't just be a man, you have to be the man.

The idea that something could be neutral, average, or mutual is like nonsensical to them. They have to frame it in terms of some hypothetical ladder where someone is on top and someone is at the bottom. Because if everything is a horizontal scale, then they can't strive to be better than anyone else. They can only be different. And that's a concept for bitches in their mind so they're obviously not going to accept it.

Sex is definitely mutual and if it's not...well you know what that means.

statsfodder · 2023-02-10T10:00:00+00:00

Without an oppressor/oppressed dynamic, the narrative would fall ...

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2023-02-10T09:37:59+00:00

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Motherofvampires · 2023-02-10T13:46:19+00:00

Because during standard PIV sex between a man and a woman, the man enters the woman body. Hence she 'gives' him access. He 'takes' the access that she has given him and enters her.

PapaDragonHH · 2023-02-10T11:04:25+00:00

Women are the gatekeepers to sex. Men are the gatekeepers to relationship / marriage.

NockerJoe · 2023-02-10T11:54:08+00:00

Because speaking practically, everything from the first date up to escalating to sex usually falls on the man. Thats not to say women can't do these things, but it falls to the man an overwhelming majority of the time and if any money is spent its usually his, and if someone aborta the process before that point its usually the woman.

Which is why when most relationship self help books aimed at men come out, they're focused on going through this process. IME most books aimed at women are aimed at just keeping the guy who already did all of that.

Wether or not an individual woman feels it was mutual isn't really relevant compared to the fact that the effort that goes into having sex is usually fairly one sided and the mental energy that goes to getting to that point generally is as welll.

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-02-10T10:05:21+00:00

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LaloTwins · 2023-02-10T09:47:05+00:00

Because women risk more from sex than men do

The risk to reward ratio is skewed in men’s favour

WilliamWyattD · 2023-02-10T10:48:16+00:00

Because the male floor for attraction is lower. And it is harder for sex to be 'bad' for men, even if there are definitely degrees of quality. So for various reasons, a lot of couples found themselves in positions where sex was at best an act of kindness or love to her partner on behalf of the woman. And what it might have been at worst, she hid from him and he tried not to see, for the sake of the relationship and his ego.

Bandit174 · 2023-02-10T16:59:46+00:00

I mean isn't that how it is in most other mammals too? The men compete the women select.

Women do seem to be the bottleneck or gatekeepers of when sex happens and who gets to have it. Generally the man is the one asking and spending money on dates and waiting for the woman to decide ahe wants sex. If the woman invites the guy back to her place on the first date her success rate will be high 90% range. If a guy asks it will be sub 50% unless he's exceptionally attractive.

All comodification of sex (prostitution, stripping, sugar dating, onlyfans ect) is overwhelmingly women selling to men.

Womens go to insults for men are (vorgin, incel, bet you dont get laid ect) which imply getting sex from women is an indicator of a mans value and the lack of doing so is a mark against it.

h76r35fh · 2023-02-10T09:41:17+00:00

Because most women are not attracted to most men, so if a women is having sex with an average guy, she doesn't really like him and expects some kind of special treatment in return.

Royal-Tip4585 · 2023-02-10T14:13:41+00:00

Men like sex more then women. There’s an r/science article about this proving it for the bazillion time the usual understandings.

Thus for men who always want sex. They have to get the lady in the mood. Thus she gives sex.

LouisdeRouvroy · 2023-02-10T14:15:59+00:00

Because it is the case:

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/04/would_you_have_sex_with_an_attractive_stranger_.html

Best_Illustrator_137 · 2023-02-10T14:26:49+00:00

You literally just explained why in your own question..if we’re going by biological standpoint and not putting any feelings into it, that’s pretty much what’s happening..women are selectively giving it to someone, men take it because it’s harder to acquire..

IntrepidObjective265 · 2023-02-10T14:34:08+00:00

Women generally control access to sex

Men generally control access to commitment

CLyD3_H3ffalump · 2023-02-10T14:35:09+00:00

Because unless the women gives the consent for sex, it's not sex, it's Grape or SA.

CliffPR · 2023-02-10T14:37:37+00:00

The current paradigm, overall, is that the initial approach and each subsequent attempt to advance to the next stage in a relationship or casual encounter - up to and including sex- is the responsibility of the man, with the woman deciding whether to accept or reject at each stage. Hence the woman "gives" sex (or doesn't) because the man by default is in the position of requesting it.

Smoogs2 · 2023-02-10T15:13:55+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7QZnwKqopo

Honestly I think it is replicable in nature and everywhere you look. The male of the species does a little dance and must impress the female. Now that is obviously incredibly simplistic when it comes to humans but I think it rings generally true. Sure there are some girls out there on the prowl especially if the man is rich or famous, but generally speaking, men will "take" the chance and shoot his shot and women gives it or leaves it.

As long as there is a disparity surrounding this and men approach women more than the reverse, and have to impress women more than the reverse, sex and relationships will be framed as something a man pursues and a woman accepts.

Ohmaygahh · 2023-02-10T15:24:52+00:00

Because women select who is allowed to have sex with her and who isn't?

nothatyoucare · 2023-02-10T18:02:11+00:00

https://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/71503.pdf

Thus, the first prediction based on the social exchange theory of sex is that interpersonal processes associated with sexual behavior will reveal a fundamental difference in gender roles. Men will offer women other resources in exchange for sex, but women will not give men resources for sex (except perhaps in highly unusual circumstances). In any event, the bottom line is that sexual activity by women has exchange value, whereas male sexuality does not

Assuming that most men would prefer to have sex with affectionate female partners (as opposed to prostitutes or by masturbating while watching pornography), the women in a community would potentially have a monopoly if they could band together to reduce competition among themselves.

A rational economic strategy that many monopolies or cartels have pursued is to try to increase the price of their assets by artificially restricting the supply. With sex, this would entail having the women put pressure on each other to exercise sexual restraint and hold out for a high price (such as a commitment to marriage) before engaging in sex. Economic history suggests that such efforts, as in the case of Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) are only intermittently successful and may often be undermined as individuals seek to underbid each other. Still, monopolies are sometimes sufficiently successful that most developed nations have found it necessary to enact laws against them. It would therefore not be surprising that economic self-interest would occasionally drive women to work together to restrain the availability of sex.

In fact, having sex with different partners would be a problematic strategy for a woman. As social exchange theorists emphasize, the value of any commodity rises and falls with scarcity. Even such fully renewable resources as praise can rise or fall in value as a function of how widely they are distributed (Blau, 1964; Jones & Wortman, 1973). A compliment may have only modest value from someone who praises everybody liberally, whereas the exact same compliment might have much higher value if given by someone who is perceived as rarely praising anyone. By analogy, sex would have high value if the woman has had few lovers or is known to be reluctant to grant sexual favors, whereas the same activity might have less value if the woman is reputed to be loose or to have had many lovers. The amount a man would be willing to give to have sex with the woman would therefore differ as a function of her (perceived) sexual history. In this respect, the woman’s sexual favors are not a fully renewable resource and the woman will have some incentive to grant them only sparingly.

Thus, a woman’s sexual favors lose value as she distributes them widely. In consequence, she has an incentive to be selective in her sexual partners and to maintain a reputation for having relatively few partners. Put another way, a woman has two resources to consider. Actual sexual activity is a fully renewable resource, insofar as her ability to engage in sex is not heavily dependent on what she has done previously. In contrast, her reputation is a nonrenewable resource. A fully rational approach to social exchange would therefore cause the woman to care less about what she actually does than about what she is perceived by the community as doing. Whenever she engages in sex, she should seek to keep it somewhat secret and deniable, so that her reputation is that of someone whose sexual favors are highly exclusive and therefore of high value

Men are far less constrained by these concerns, and so men would be more willing to admit and even exaggerate how much sex they have had. In fact, if low-cost sex represents a loss for the woman, it may be regarded as a gain for the man, and so the man who can boast of multiple lovers without incurring substantial costs (such as having had to marry each sex partner) may lay claim to high respect from other men

gymbro718nyc2 · 2023-02-10T19:50:33+00:00

It's part of the social brainwashing. But any woman who thinks she is giving me something or giving me a gift, can go out and buy a cucumber cause I ain't touching her.

Useful-Indication225 · 2023-02-10T09:57:27+00:00

Because it takes most Men more effort to achieve the experience of a sexual encounter

abaxeron · 2023-02-10T10:41:59+00:00

Why is sex framed as something a woman “gives” and a man “takes”?

This is the language of cartel anti-competition price fixing. Large corporations need consumers more than vice versa; yet, they try to maintain the rhetoric that they are "providing goods and services", rather than eliminating and absorbing competition, imposing mandatory useless extra services and features, and even lobbying for laws against price dumping.

jeanironplate · 2023-02-10T12:18:11+00:00

Because men spoke their ideas. Most things you hear in culture are a man's perspective. That's it.

Reasonable_Volume_96 · 2023-02-10T16:20:32+00:00

It shouldn't be. It's very weird to me that some men think women are giving them something when we want to have sex with them.

We aren't giving them our bodies, because our bodies belong to us. We are willingly engaging in a consensual shared experience. Men aren't taking anything from us by having sex with us either, though if they see sex as transactional like that chances are lower they'll actually give us an orgasm.

I understand that some people are into kinky things like Dom/Sub relationships etc but that is not usually something people get into without first having a very deep level of trust, and is simply a dynamic two people discuss and choose to enter into together. Neither is taking from the other nor giving ourselves as a gift or prize to be won.

revente · 2023-02-10T11:02:18+00:00

Because it benefits women.

It implies that they had to invest more, thus they should to be able to extract more from this transaction.

Notice how every time a girl has sex with a dude and he wants nothing more than it ‚he uses her’. Whereas in reality he had sex and she had sex and it was perfectly equal.

warramite · 2023-02-10T11:19:40+00:00

Make a male profile and ask the women you match with to have sex with you, you'll get ghosted, insulted or (this is the reason) they'll ask you for money

Inherently that dynamic means sex is a resource they're selling

SteeloStacks · 2023-02-10T14:42:43+00:00

Women can single-handedly decide whether or not your sexual encounter with her was a consensual and fun experience, or a non-consensual, traumatic crime.

One of my favorite comedians once said more or less that it’s funny to him how men brag about getting pussy, when in all actuality, it’s a gift from women.

Fun_Push7168 · 2023-02-10T16:29:15+00:00

It's simple, most women withhold it from most men, most of the time. So when you stop withholding you are giving.

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-02-10T11:54:45+00:00

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Mrs_Drgree · 2023-02-10T12:33:49+00:00

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Makaveli676 · 2023-02-10T12:34:55+00:00

It’s a seller’s market

zxzzxzzzxzzzzx · 2023-02-10T13:21:21+00:00

There's of course all the historical pressures about chastity and stuff which I won't get into.

But another aspect is that in a generic hookup, the man is much more likely to achieve orgasm than the woman. So their average satisfaction is going to be much higher.

Round-Relative-7859 · 2023-02-10T14:00:25+00:00

Since men want sex more than women, women have the power on sex, so they "have" it.

However, this is just an analogy. No one is "giving" or "taking" anything concrete.

Bekiala · 2023-02-10T14:11:13+00:00

I think is just the physics and biology of it. Sex happens inside a woman's body and she takes a huge risk by having sex. No man can change this for her.

KayRay1994 · 2023-02-10T14:25:19+00:00

if we’re talking just sex, point blank - i can think of two primarily reasons

1) men are far less complex sexually and getting off as a man is incredibly easy.

2) kinds trickles down to how things as a whole are socially structured with male/female dynamics - ie. the woman is the object to be desired, and given that mindframe alone once the object has been obtained, it has been obtained. In other words, it isn’t about sex being a shared bonding experience, for the guy it’s about getting off and for the woman its about getting him off

now, if we’re talking about the lead up to the sex - i think two things play a role

1) men’s sexual desires are usually far simpler, and as such, more straightforwardly approached

2) because it’s been the social norm for a very long time - whether it started off as upholding power/control, leading the way in a time when survival was tougher, etc - such things have been normalized through time and at one point just becomes the case cause that’s always been the case

CountryParticular090 · 2023-02-10T14:34:32+00:00

Become a radical feminist if you don’t like it power structures exist everywhere it’s the nature of the matrix you have to focus above it

Lift_and_Lurk · 2023-02-10T14:34:36+00:00

Because the dudes who say it want sex to just be given to them.

Lazy-Sandwich9033 · 2023-02-10T14:49:07+00:00

Because as a man you have to work on yourself hard to get it, once you looksmax and become more low inhib then sex becomes easier. It's something women give us after working hard

Different_Weekend817 · 2023-02-10T15:15:11+00:00

Why is sex framed as something a woman “gives” and a man “takes”?

i've only read the opposite, that sex is something men do to women - ie men give it to her (figuratively and literally) and she takes it as the subordinate. this is theory by feminist and law professor Catharine MacKinnon (had to read it for law school). not saying i agree with this, but that's the theory and it's well famous.

The obvious answers are that women are biologically predisposed to being more selective as they carry the risk of pregnancy, whereas men are more incentivised to have as much offspring as possible, hence the saying ‘women sleep with who they want, men sleep with who they can’.

no, this is socialisation not biology. now that we have birth control that's 99% effective when used correctly and medically-assisted abortion where available, it's not risk of pregnancy that makes sex less attractive for women. it's cuz it's socially discouraged for women to have 'high body counts' and have sexual freedom like men; a large part of society still wishes to keep traditional gender roles.

Gingerchoco · 2023-02-10T15:17:43+00:00

It is weird when you think about it. On a macro/societal level, women risk more from sex, and their sexuality is a kind of currency where it isn’t for men.

Zooming in on personal experiences, it has rarely felt that way, especially the taking part… and that’s the initial round. In relationships, it’s felt pretty equal.

hari_hbp · 2023-02-10T16:44:45+00:00

The day women stop labelling consensual sex as "he was using me", the idea that "woman gives, man takes" will die off.

FrivolousMood · 2023-02-10T17:32:39+00:00

On average, men have a higher sex drive than women. Because of this gender difference, men are (sexually speaking) forced into a role of pursuit. And women are forced into a role of gate keeping.

stepbrostoppls · 2023-02-10T18:05:02+00:00

Gametes difference, men produce millions of sperms a day, women's eggs are limited to one per month and are not regenerative. This is a huge scarcity difference. Women also bear all the cost of reproduction as their wombs produce the next generation of humans, which is immensely valuable to society as a whole and men. Women are giving something of value away while men are not and it's why most women desire commitment with sex as the inherently understand the value exchange is not even. This is what modern feminism gets so wrong with advocating for sexual liberation, I couldn't come up with an ideology that's more devaluing to your average women. This is why studies show that women "slut shame" as much as men, if women overall give up sex easier, she overall starts at a weaker bargining position.

Atomic_Thr0away · 2023-02-10T19:43:44+00:00

As Arthur Shopenhouer pointed out in his essay "On Women"

"A woman pays the debt of life by what she suffers"

Every woman knows how to play victim. They know it works. Something they exchanged freely today... Oops, all of a sudden tomorrow she's decided she was ripped off/you got the better deal. So now she wants more or worse, she can turn that shit into an allegation of epic proportions because "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"

If they FEEL like you got the better deal, you now owe her. She can hold these two thoughts in her head at once 1. Yes it was consensual, but 2. He got the better deal.

It's like, ugh, no... He wasn't fucking you, you weren't fucking home, you were both fucking each other at the exact same time so it's even... But as we know, women feel they are more valuable, especially in the world of sex... Even the supposedly "equal" feminism sees women as giving more in the sex act.

I understand that 60+ years ago with the risks of pregnancy, bad reputation, and probably less effective treatment for some STIs... But today? Nope.

But that's how the narcissistic woman loves things.... She's either the strong independent hero, or the victim - never the villain. Nothing is ever a fair deal.

M_Ptwopointoh · 2023-02-10T20:17:33+00:00

OP, I'd recommend a brief trip over to the Dead Bedrooms subreddit if you're genuinely confused.

Relationships where the woman wants sex as much or more than the man do exist, but they are rare. The default marriage involves a man who wants sex more often than his wife, and the default failed marriage fails because the wife isn't sexually attracted to the husband.

It's just pattern recognition. To use the word "framing" here would be like questioning the "framing" that men are taller than women. I personally know a woman that's taller than me, a man, but does that invalidate the overall statistical reality? Sex is only framed as something women give and men take because that's usually how it works!

Conscious_Ad_6572 · 2023-02-10T20:39:57+00:00

Look at animal kingdom, most of the crap u don’t understand, u will them

ConsultJimMoriarty · 2023-02-10T21:10:12+00:00

Being the penetrator is good.

Being penetrated is not.

That’s basically what it boils down to.

KochiraJin · 2023-02-10T11:50:10+00:00

How often have you approached men for a sexual relationship vs men approaching you for one?

einsumzwei · 2023-02-10T13:28:30+00:00

because men have been and continue to be predators.. this is why give and take is a thing

PuertoRock007 · 2023-02-10T11:52:26+00:00

Probably because men tend to want it more. Women many times expect to gain something from sex.

Tree09man · 2023-02-10T12:07:58+00:00

I think it's part of western society to be this way and also has to do with male and female biology. Women's sexual needs and sexuality has always been a touchy and sacred thing in the west. Where as a mans sexuality has generally been viewed as "whatever". So in sexual interactions it's considered taboo to press a woman for sex if the answer is no where as this same sentiment isn't encouraged on men. Quite the opposite really. Men ARE pressured to have sex by other men and women and at an earlier age.

And I don't believe the ideas of "giver" and "taker" are so much of a consent thing as much as they are a social norm. Traditionally speaking, in most of human history, and in most cases in the west it's considered the guys job to persue and the womans job to reject or reciprocate. In that regard guys become the asker, the woman becomes the giver if she reciprocates his feelings and then he becomes the receiver/taker.

y2kjanelle · 2023-02-10T20:42:25+00:00

Because “take” has a form of control within it. It’s quite simple. It’s used as a way to control womens sexuality because if she is “giving” away sex, she is also”losing” something whether it’s self respect, self esteem, value to other dating prospects.

Sex isn’t meant to be enjoyable for women unless it is on mens terms. When men feel like they’re getting sex enough and not just some men, when losers get to have sex while providing a pathetic nothing, when men feel empowered during sex bc they gain status from it, etc.

Historically rape and sex have been used this way too. For example, the Rape of Nanjing, all the women were raped and “taken”. In rap songs “I’ll take your b*tch, etc etc”. Slave owners raping men and women to make them emasculated, as if they have no power, hopeless, and owned.

Women are seen societally as pawns/objects of desire and that GIVES POWER TO MEN, we don’t take power from them and are never given power. It is to be TAKEN from us, which is where our value comes from.

It’s sad and women suffer all the time from it because men refuse to let that go and just let people live their lives freely. They’re losing their shit and frothing st the mouth because a lot of us normal people don’t think women should be used to boost men up anymore.

Men are terrified of having to create value for themselves completely. A lot of it comes from taking value and status and sex and love from women and if we do not give it anymore,

Then what?

Title	Why is sex framed as something a woman “gives” and a man “takes”?
Author	Ridan_
Upvotes	49
Comments	251
Date	February 10, 2023 9:33 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/10ymr4h/why_is_sex_framed_as_something_a_woman_gives_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-is-sex-framed-as-something-a-woman-gives-and-a.1151255 https://theredarchive.com/post/1151255

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