Cmv : I now believe women are actually right. Maybe mens personalities are a bigger problem than I believed

Psyteratops · 2023-07-19T15:17:35+00:00

The thing about the ‘alpha’ archetype is that it’s a dumb framing. There are no alphas. Hierarchies are localized not generalized. Any move besides trying to be a more confident, less neurotic version of yourself is a dead end. You cannot be someone else. Improving yourself starts with YOU as the base image, not an ideal you move towards.

Nothing puts people off more than someone attempting to counterfeit a personality or confidence.

babazuki · 2023-07-19T15:19:38+00:00

This does read a little bit like a romance novel description of the main character. It's a little too much focused on how he makes people feel. That's how women describe things. It's not always helpful for someone trying to get a definition.

You could have just listed the attributes concisely

- Confident

-Calm

-Funny

-Mature

-Inquisitive and attentive

-Respectful

-Generous

-Physically fit

These are the attributes I could interpret from your description, they could be discussed on whether or not they're "alpha".

Also, how do you command respect with firm eye contact? What is that supposed to mean? That's one of the things people might be upset about. That's not an attainable attribute unless you have Jedi powers.

Secure1Ad1991 · 2023-07-19T14:37:02+00:00

You are right, but there's a caveat. Personality is crucially important for men who are from 4/10 to 7/10 (90% of men). For the rest, personality is irrelevant: they are too ugly or too hot for it to matter.

No matter how good/bad your personality is, if you are 2/10, you are NOT getting laid.

No matter how good/bad your personality is, if you are 8/10, you are getting laid.

Mobrowncheeks · 2023-07-19T14:53:37+00:00

Sure. This guy that you described is like an ideal character and life won’t allow you to be this way.

But the way we pretend that women are already complete models and men are the ones who are slacking is insane.

Women also have average personalities also. And we pretend those are great for some reason. They aren’t any better. Men are just more willing to put up with more from women then they are for us.

nonplussedminus · 2023-07-19T15:08:19+00:00

Bro none of what you described has anything to do with personality. You can be an absolutely rotten sack of shit and still conduct yourself demanding respect while being polite to the waiter. Meanwhile the kindest most interesting guys may not even be able to keep eye contact. What you are describing is a mask.

platinirisms · 2023-07-19T15:10:53+00:00

I’ll need more information on some parts before making a judgement on what you believe isn’t a perfect man.

”Sits you straight and takes up space”

What do you mean by takes up space, and how does a man achieve that?

speaks with clarity, charisma, and captivating confidence

I think this is the thing that I question the most, how many people, men and women, do you know that ‘Speaks with clarity, charisma, and captivating confidence’. Very very few people I know would fit this description, almost everyone is just normal and talks normal.

None of them possess ‘Captivating confidence’. There’s being confident, then there’s being so confident that it’s literally captivating, especially on a first date when you’re going to have butterflies and a bit of anxiety.

but commands attention and respect

What does this look like, how does someone command attention, is he shouting across the room to get the waiters attention?

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-07-19T14:38:12+00:00

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Twopawl · 2023-07-19T15:10:29+00:00

I'm a bit confused. To me what you described is the bare minimum of a decent guy, with a little bit of very attainable "manly presence". Which part of this is considered unachievable?

uselessloner123 · 2023-07-19T14:35:26+00:00

I didn’t read every comment in your other thread but I do remember one guy pointing out how this is a “Prince Charming” caricature and I agree with him.

I ask you, where is the flaw or imperfection in your ideal man? You are asking for an extremely classy, perfect male with no flaws who treats you like a princess. If that is your standard for “good personality” then yeah you’re going to be hard pressed to find a guy like him. And even here you do throw looks in at the end as well.

I’m not saying guys should have a green light to treat their girls like trash. Far from it. But there are minor details such as the guy being “thankful” when you offer to split the bill instead of just saying “No, it’s fine, I can pay” that make this seems a bit detached from reality.

Treacle-Flimsy · 2023-07-19T17:10:34+00:00

You described maintaining frame in a blue pill language

Jazzlike-Actuary-99 · 2023-07-19T17:28:52+00:00

I get the critique of your description as a cariacature, because you are not describing personality or values. You are describing some idealized experience, as seen from the outside. All surface, and no substance. Basically a Disney prince. He has no distinguishing characteristics. A cariacture with zero depth that exists as a idealized trophe for the princess.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2023-07-19T14:37:29+00:00

Well because women says what the alpha is in from a MORAL and SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE WAY that ends by defauit being nothing but pandering.

The guy you described is not alpha, in fact a lot of things you said have no bearing AT ALL; Asks questions and pays attention don't define a alpha, Goes to pay the bill first don't define a alpha, Is expressive and smiles don't define a alpha, Keeps his phone away whilst with you don't define a alpha, being funny don't define a alpha.

The only characteristic you said COULD define a alpha was confidence.

Mental_Iron319 · 2023-07-19T15:17:42+00:00

How do all those things work if the girl doesn't even let you a chance display your personality?

Twopawl · 2023-07-19T15:55:59+00:00

Bored at work so let's break it down! 1. "Sits still, takes up space, calm and still dinner table etiquitte": So... he was either not raised in a barn or has spent considerable time outside a barn since then. Assessment: Low bar. 2. "Speaks with clarity, charisma, and captivating confidence": I can see how this statement would intimidate many men who don't have this quality, but the confidence and charisma is probably the number one thing that is actually important to women even if they aren't aware of it. This is PRIORITY 1 thing to work on once you have fixed low hanging fruit of any obviously unattractive qualities. I'm sorry if it intimidates you but it is reality. Assessment: Achievable to almost anyone given a little effort and time. Medium bar. 3. "Funny but not an immature idiot": I've never heard a woman complain that a man isn't funny enough. If you read this as he needs to be a comedian I can see how you'd see this as unrealistic. I take this to mean that he has a sense of humor along with not being an immature idiot, with a focus on the not being an immature idiot part. Knowing when it's NOT funny to make a fart joke, or joke about someone's appearance. Assessment: Low bar 4. "Asks questions and pays attention", "treats waiting staff with respect", "keeps his phone away": it's sad that these are even included, but I understand why.... Assessment: Low Bar 5. "Commands attention and respect by just the way he is, with firm eye contact": see point 2 6. "Goes to pay the bill first but is thankful when you ask to split it": So he wants to play the "I'm a man I want to take care of you" game but also isn't emasculated by splitting the bill. Nice. I can see why people might differ in preference on this one thinking he should always demand to pay, or that he should never try to pay first, or whatever. I think the point is he wants to be masculine and fill that role but also that his masculinity is not so fragile that he needs to always be in control of everything. People might have different personal preferences here but still, Assessment: Low Bar 7. "Speaks with passion about his life and interests but also never talks over you and is just as eager to know about yours": he has a basic understanding of how to hold a conversation and relate to other humans?!? Assessment: Low Bar 8. "Athletic" Assessment: medium bar if you actually mean athletic as in can hit 3pt shots and run a 5.5 min mile. Not everyone is into that. Low bar if you mean he works out regularly and isn't morbidly obese. Come on.... 9. "Takes care of himself" Assessment: Low bar

That's it. The only ask in this description that isn't burying the bar in the ground is confidence and charisma. That's the only thing in this description that qualifies as a challenge. And if as a man this post triggers you, consider why that is and work on it.

Devourer_of_felines · 2023-07-19T18:06:12+00:00

You’re receiving pushback because what you’re describing is a poorly written fanfiction character.

macone235 · 2023-07-19T14:35:21+00:00

That's a negative. Most people are socially awkward, and most people are not going to become the Michael Jordan of rizz by practicing it just like you aren't going to become the Michael Jordan of basketball by practicing basketball.

That's not how a hierarchy works. It's simply impossible. You can't expect everyone to have the same level of social skills just like you can't expect everyone to have the same level of basketball skills. Especially when you factor that a lot of social skills are formed through external validation, not just internal validation.

Guilty-Instruction60 · 2023-07-19T15:10:18+00:00

So what does this unattainable or very difficult ideal look like?

AidsVictim · 2023-07-19T18:17:25+00:00

You're describing someone with very high level charisma and social dominance. Even for generally healthy (mentally and physically) men that sort of bar is not easy to reach. How many men do you know in real life with "captivating confidence" and commands attention and respect "just by the way he is" ? I'd say such men are very rare and a certain level of genetic luck in appearance and fitness are mandatory before even considering the socialization aspect.

He’s who you can be if you do some real work on yourself for a year or two, and if as a man you can’t fathom being like this guy, and he seems so perfect and out of reach, then yeah, maybe most men DO have a personality problem.

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

caption291 · 2023-07-19T20:08:56+00:00

I haven't met a man that fits your description. I've met men that thought they were like that but imo it was because they hadn't self-improved their self-awareness enough.

ThorLives · 2023-07-19T20:32:27+00:00

I don't even understand how you reached your conclusion. If I said "women need to weigh less than 200 pounds", I would also get haters in the comments. People would tell me I'm fatphobic. I would get hate from women who were over 200 pounds and felt that it shouldn't disqualify them. Some might point out that some women have thyroid problems.

So, could I conclude, based on the backlash, that women are the problem because they aren't willing to do the one thing that would make them attractive - i.e. eat less? Of course not. You can't take the opinions of a few angry people and make a sweeping criticism of an entire gender.

You're leaping to conclusions here.

GeneralFig6053 · 2023-07-20T03:40:56+00:00

My boyfriend is like that. Except for the part where he is thankful that I offer to pay. He finds it insulting for a woman to offer to pay for dates so he takes care of that

MistyMaisel · 2023-07-19T14:50:06+00:00

Dude, the phone thing alone would put a lot of men ahead. They complain constantly about social media, but so many guys I know and deal with are constantly on their phones with gacha games, social media, texting, and other bullshit when they're in very social situations.

I remember one of the final nails in the coffin of my previous relationship was seeing him sit at a dinner table with my family on his phone playing gacha and being on discord instead of socializing at a family meal.

Zombombaby · 2023-07-19T16:46:19+00:00

Nailed it. We're okay with you being yourself. But if yourself is just an asshole who refuses to grow past selfish behaviours then yeah, why would anyone want to date you?

modidlee · 2023-07-19T18:20:45+00:00

I’d say you really don’t even have to work too hard to be this guy, besides the athletic and taking care of yourself part. Everything else you listed to describe this guy is really just a guy who’s happy with himself, enjoys life and spending time and talking with the woman he’s with, and is a genuine kind and friendly guy who’s interested in different things. That’s not really hard to be. I talk to women. Pretty much all of them say they meet guys that are attractive enough all the time. But the thing that always stops them from dating the guy is his personality and mentality. Always. But when I say this guys still refuse to believe it could be their personality that’s behind their struggles. I think a lot of guys problem is ego. When they’re with a girl and they know she likes them they can’t help acting like they’re God’s gift to women and she should feel blessed that he’s with her. Like one girl told me this one guy she was with kept going on and on about her “submitting” and respecting the fact that he’s the man and “dominant” and she needs to follow his lead. That’s going to be an off putting personality to a woman. The guy who’s really that guy who can get women to see him like that won’t ever have to say a word or demand it.

peteypete78 · 2023-07-19T16:59:56+00:00

I think what the other posters in the other post took issue with is the part you have missed from this post.

"Alpha = confident, assertive, direct, unapologetic, positive, mature, self assured and out-going and has a strong dominant body and demeanour."

Guys with this personality do tend to be more of an arsehole.

PrinceArchie · 2023-07-19T15:54:24+00:00

Not sure why you made another thread in an attempt to find validation. The point remains you're a hypocrite. You expect men to be YOUR ideal sophisticated ladies man aficionado, who is conveniently very much in shape; but then tried to act as if this isn't the same caricature you criticized in that very thread. How is this a male personality issue? Personalities are a wide gamut of things, you can appreciate people without them being an ideal, you can yes date them even.

Honestly I'd take it a step further, outside of being a respectful individual, I honestly question anyones motive for scrutinizing any individuals "personality" if it isn't actively destructive. It comes off as incredibly pretentious, as if you're telling people how they must or will behave to gain approval from you. That in itself is a type of personality (incredibly judgmental and controlling) that im sure many people would not like.

waffleznstuff30 · 2023-07-19T15:22:52+00:00

Women are brought up to likeable. Men are brought up to be respected.

Being likeable means being demure and kind and essentially self sacrificing. Respect is something foreign that women are wanting in the modern dating space. Because in the past the trad 50s house wife wasn't respected. Her needs wants and aspirations as a person aren't valued. It's her utility and her being likeable that mattered more. I think that's the hardest straw to grasp for men nowadays is that women want to be respected/valued in their partnerships not just liked. Why a woman can be disrespected and it's pick better men but let's not try and change how we treat this other person.

Men are taught to be respected. With this sense of inflated respect. There comes a sense of entitlement with it. And that's where men who talk about their ideal women or how they put women into fuckable or datable categories. This is why things like RP/HVM talk are a talking point now. Because it clings to that principle of respect and you do this you will get the respect you crave. And the alpha male character Because he exudes that respect and bravado. Because they are the respected it's their birthright as men. And when a woman does something disrespectful it's like a cardinal sin to the entitlement of respect. So men leaning into being likeable takes a dig at their sense of being respected. Because they have to humble themselves and may be rejected which can be a sign of disrespect.

Cjaylyle · 2023-07-19T14:30:45+00:00

you guys ask for a lot and have a huge self entitled behavior but never produce anything but excuses of why the world is this and that. Then we can’t ask for more because us women have to learn to stay in our place and anything outside of that would classify as being a hoe or “for the streets”. As if us having standards is a problem.

ZealousidealAd7191 · 2023-07-19T20:54:48+00:00

You just described Ned Flanders 🤣

That guy would be described as boring as fuck to most women, especially to most women in my dating pool (if I were still on the market).

Purp-Slurp1 · 2023-07-20T18:22:40+00:00

I mean you just described what is essentially a perfect person. Are you really upset that people tell you it's unreasonable to think every man could just choose to become a perfect person?

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Latter_Adagio8945 · 2023-07-19T16:04:29+00:00

Yeah I think that’s basically how a guy should be. Although bill splitting is sorta a contentious issue.

No-Assistant-2592 · 2023-07-19T16:33:30+00:00

Being your best self is and making an effort is something I always advocate. I genuinely think that a lot of men don't have any problem with your description or that it's too much all on it self. I think that it feels too much in the context of dating.

I think my that if we look at the underlying factors as for why the man in your description is seen as attractive to a lot of women, we'll see why so many men might not like it. I think that you can summarize it like this: It makes their partner feel like they can open up to them, be themselves around them, loosen up around them, etc. I just think that a lot of guys want that energy back from the women that they're dating, and they're not just getting it most of the time. It's not that there's a mismatch between their personalities, that's OK for most guys, more like that a lot of women genuinely think that just showing up, just them existing around them, should be enough for the man. I genuinely think that most men feel insulted by this, even if they might not admit it to anybody.

Even if they're the man you described naturally, they just don't feel appreciated. That's where a lot of the resistance comes from.

itiswhatitis1090 · 2023-07-19T16:55:27+00:00

I think both genders personalities are problematic and alot of it comes from the internet.

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-07-19T16:59:53+00:00

[permanently deleted]

magiksissclit · 2023-07-19T18:47:35+00:00

I think the biggest things you mentioned were passion, paying attention and having (real/true not peacock) confidence. The rest also makes sense to varying degrees but if men could find those first three things within, combined with a positive self-image; the sky’s the limit

Unlucky_Unit_6126 · 2023-07-20T00:53:48+00:00

I'm arguably the most interesting guy in the room just by being passionate about my work and philanthropy.

Sometimes I have a presence, sometimes I don't. I can't mask all the time and sometimes I've been beat for weeks.

The unattainable is trying to be this all the time.

SmilesRHere · 2023-07-20T05:10:15+00:00

That’s me you described, including the athletic part, and yes I’ve had a lot of success with women, but what you describe has absolutely nothing to do with the alpha beta etc. RP BS, it is basic culture, courtesy, respect and manners, being a decent human being.

So yes, it is mostly about personality, assuming everything else is at an acceptable minimum.

Everything else includes looks, hygiene, social and world views, cultural background, intelligence and more.

There has to be a spark, when two people meet in real life, I repeat, in real life, not online, for something to become possible, far too many people seem to think the online back and forth means anything, it doesn’t! It is just enough to open the door to the possibility of that spark.

throwaway123456_7812 · 2023-07-20T17:13:49+00:00

The guy in description you gave could very well get ghosted after the date or get hit with the “I’d rather just be friends line” if he isn’t attractive enough. The point is it doesn’t matter whether you “do all the right things” if you don’t pass the looks bar.

-AvatarAang- · 2023-07-21T00:57:24+00:00

commands attention and respect back just by the way he is, with firm eye contact

This is the only part that I think would be really difficult to do, since the decision is made by others.

Some people don't receive much attention or respect from others, whether because of their face, clothes, height, race, body language or some other factor. I'm one of those people who seems to be invisible in public. How do I bring myself to "command attention and respect" from other people? They're the ones who decide that, not me.

Petrosmine · 2023-07-21T17:34:55+00:00

bad boys

Title	Cmv : I now believe women are actually right. Maybe mens personalities are a bigger problem than I believed
Author	Cjaylyle
Upvotes	52
Comments	281
Date	July 19, 2023 2:26 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/153wji0/cmv_i_now_believe_women_are_actually_right_maybe/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-i-now-believe-women-are-actually-right-maybe.1225790 https://theredarchive.com/post/1225790

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