Why do people, especially women, have such a hard-time accepting that humans are also animals?

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Something-bothersome · 2024-05-09T04:09:37+00:00

I think people kind of hold some expectations for humans that we perhaps don’t hold for ducks or cats.

It could have something to do with our seemly awesome ability to behave and achieve beyond other animals on this planet. I mean, walking on the moon was kind of neat.

ArmariumEspata · 2024-05-09T04:11:59+00:00

Because people who say that “we’re basically animals” almost always say it as a defense of certain negative behaviors or negative traits

throwaway000102030 · 2024-05-09T03:55:53+00:00

There’s being similar to other primates and there’s not taking responsibility for any of your actions because we’re technically just animals.

Animals don’t live in capitalized environments separated from nature and act like they can’t control a singular aspect about themselves that conveniently allows them to ignore their responsibilities to the society they, otherwise, are glad to be in.

If you want to forfeit your mental capacity to that of an animals, I better see the results in other areas besides things you choose to “not” have control over.

Demasii · 2024-05-09T05:57:46+00:00

One of the things that is great about the human species is how complex we evolved. Our complexity then shaped a complex environment.

But whenever someone tries to bring up evolutionary biology/psychology into dating/sex discussions, many people, especially women seem repulsed and dismissive

Because it over simplifies human interactions and 9 times out of 10 that someone who is bringing it up is putting a negative spin on one gender.

For instance, women are horrified when men abandon their kids, but for the vast majority of human existence paternity was never certain.

It's obvious that a society with men who help raise their children benefits from many positive outcomes. This is why single mothers get a lot of hate.

It makes sense for women to be horrified. Our complex brain understands the consequences of it.

Unlike women, men didn't have the privilege of being confident in which kids are really theirs, so why would men have evolved to be as invested in children as women are?

Well men do now. Armed with the information of biological certainty the environment has changed from one which they evolved from. This new piece of information is enough to tip the scale for many men to stay to raise their child.

Environment is often ignored when making evo-psych arguments.

C0nstantineXI · 2024-05-09T03:59:06+00:00

A few things come to mind:

1). Just because something can be theoretically explained as a product of evolution doesn’t mean it’s true. “Evolutionary psychology” is usually totally unverifiable. It’s just not scientific at all. EDIT: I’m referring here to the way influencers talk about evolutionary psychology, not actual scientists. I’ve been reminded that it is a real field of science with real experts, however, these are not the people posting about it on Reddit.

2). Just because something is possibly based in evolution doesn’t make it good or right. Should anyone NOT be horrified by men abandoning their kids? What does evolution have to do with whether we as a society judge this as okay?

3). Related to my first and second point, there’s often an argument to be made that directly contradicts any argument you could make about evolution. There are plenty of species where males DO help raise babies. Especially mammals that live in groups, which we evolved from. This, too, is just speculative. Who’s to say how evolution impacts modern society? It’s far more useful to study psychology in a modern context than it is to postulate about unknown variables in the past effecting the present.

4). Ultimately, what is there to be gained from “studying” (i.e. posting about it online) evolutionary psychology? I’ve yet to see any real interesting useful knowledge come from this line of thinking. It seems like it’s mostly a way to discuss perceived gender differences in a way that lends your position some credibility, supposedly. But it’s not based in science.

alwaysright12 · 2024-05-09T08:04:33+00:00

Humans have absolutely evolved to raise children in pairs and social groups

A lot of mammals also eat and kill their young

You're criticising other people for ignoring evolution when you don't even understand it

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2024-05-09T05:25:08+00:00

Us being animals doesn't make us all copies of each other. Varience within a species is what makes evolution possible.

Men abondoning oir kids is a poor evolutionary strategy, due to how useless human babies are. We're not like deer that are walking with the herd after a few hours. Or like rats, that have hundreds of babies a year. Ours take tge care of at leat two adults to have a chance of surviving.

Sad_and_grossed_out · 2024-05-09T06:19:03+00:00

Using other mammals to excuse men not giving a fuck about their children is wild because mothers in the animal kingdom aren't constrained by capitalism and government rule by their own species.

Momma monkey doesn't have to come up with money so other monkeys don't kick them out of the tree and starve them out. Momma monkey doesn't have to leave her baby at monkey daycare or monkey babysitter while she commutes to monkey work to get money so she can buy food. Momma monkey doesn't have to worry about monkey CPS showing up to take baby monkey because she couldn't pay the monkey bills, or failed to get her baby to monkey school, or any other reason because she didn't have any support.

Momma monkey can swing around collecting fruit actively with a baby clinging to her tits and nothing much else is expected of her like humans. For this reason momma monkey doesn't need daddy monkey, she has everything she needs to do it herself. Human women until recently were literally banned from gaining resources for their offspring outside of men. And even now when women try to do it alone like momma monkey we get judged to hell 🤷🏻‍♀️

Men set up the system in society to keep women from supporting their own offspring because the want women dependent on them. Guess we can all regress to the trees and give up money and organized society and law if men don't wanna deal with their kids so bad.

spanglesandbambi · 2024-05-09T07:12:30+00:00

We are also basically a tree. It's the context it's used in.

You know if you take something out of context and rehash it, you could say anything. Your post would work better if you used some direct links to issues you have seen.

StaleSushiRolls · 2024-05-09T07:41:49+00:00

For instance, women are horrified when men abandon their kids, but for the vast majority of human existence paternity was never certain. Unlike women, men didn't have the privilege of being confident in which kids are really theirs, so why would men have evolved to be as invested in children as women are? In most mammals, males don't participate in childrearing at all.

So you're justifying being a shitty father to your child because "muh evolution". Really?

One of the theories on why humans did so much better than other hominids is because they raised their children together with their females. Which meant that males didn't need to compete with each other for mates nearly as much, leaving more of them living longer and healthier lives.

EulenWatcher · 2024-05-09T03:32:44+00:00

a) During most of our written history humans actively put themselves aside from animals. Look at any major religion, for example.

b) Having an evolutional explanation for a certain behavior doesn't make this behavior acceptable.

c) We can't be sure how people evolved behavior-wise, as we do not have enough information about human societies during prehistoric times.

Disasterid · 2024-05-09T04:00:48+00:00

Humans are animals and also evopsych is barely a science. Two things can be true.

Financial_Leave4411 · 2024-05-09T03:52:41+00:00

It’s not that women have a hard time accepting it, it’s that women are looking to find a partner they want to be with that will give them an advantage in life rather than accepting a man that puts them at a disadvantage in life. After all why should women purposely choose a man who’s going to abandon them to raise children on their own when they can choose a man who won’t abandon them? So when women say everyone’s different or you’ll find someone for you, what they’re really saying is YOU are not right for them and YOU need to keep looking for a woman willing to accept what you’re offering.

KayRay1994 · 2024-05-09T05:40:52+00:00

I think men abandoning their kids is about the worst example to use here cause it sounds like you’re trying to justify being a deadbeat (i doubt that you are, just wanted to point that out)

With that being said, while we are beholden to our biology to an extent, we also stand out on that our cognitive and emotional ability are both far more advanced, leading to far more autonomy and uniqueness in comparison. I do think it’s silly to shrug off biological differences because of that, but it’s also just as silly (frankly maybe even sillier) to attempt to remove autonomy or accountability because of this.

To add to this, many mammals are far more collectivist and group oriented - many ape species, canine species and some wild cats rely on colonies, for example - and we are closest to apes as far as our evolution goes. To add to this, again, our cognitive ability is far more complex than any animal and as such, we have far more autonomy over our own actions and enough sense to reflect upon our decisions. That factor alone makes us more complex than “just animals”

Critical_Corner_1859 · 2024-05-09T07:35:39+00:00

Wait until you find out that without social conditioning women act in a similar way, and that humans are naturally polysexual and bisexual, being a social sex species. We have sex for reasons other than reproduction and pleasure. If we really let instincts take over, we would all just be fucking everybody, regardless of sex, the way bonobo monkeys do.

Cethlinnstooth · 2024-05-09T06:13:23+00:00

It has probably escaped your notice because modern men don't tend to have a decent grounding in history, but we're still in, but on the cusp of leaving, an era in which western women had it pretty firmly placed upon them to be the civilising emotional influence on the supposed rational but beastly nature of western men. Rousseau and all that similar shit.

Also a lot of evo psych especially as argued by modern men who lack even the basics that a classical education may have provided and know basically nothing about anything other than computers and that by gosh they require people to agree with them is actually kind of bullshit. By its very nature there is little demand to offer proof to an evo psych theory about something, you're allowed just to cobble together a few ideas and argue those ideas. Sometimes people just smell the bullshit even if they have similar levels of knowledge about the thing being discussed.

SmallSituation6432 · 2024-05-09T03:48:16+00:00

-or "we aren't cavemen anymore so people aren't/shouldn't act like them"(they greatly overestimate the typical rate of evolutionary change)-

The fact that you thought to apply evolution so directly to social and cultural behaviors demonstrates you understand nothing about biology or anthropology. It's all just words to make you feel smart.

N-Zoth · 2024-05-09T03:52:37+00:00

Because it's an extraordinary claim coming from people with no relevant education. And evopsych is probably the least credible field of science (honestly surprised it hasn't been classified as a pseudoscience yet).

The fact that "influencers" like Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate and the Liver King are the champions of the "hurr durr man is just an animal" movement doesn't help at all.

El_Don_94 · 2024-05-09T03:51:38+00:00

Because its often used to say things that while true paint women in a bad light without doing the same to men or mentioned virtues of women.

Sillysheila · 2024-05-09T04:01:38+00:00

I accept that people are animals, however, that doesn’t mean some animalistic behaviour we have isn’t appalling or not fitted to modern society. Rape is natural and practiced by many different species including animals, and if you think about it, would be an excellent way to spread your genes. I mean just think of the amount of descendants Genghis Khan has today. He “won” on an evolutionary level, if the name of the game is to spread your genes. That doesn’t mean it’s moral or befitting of a safe and civilised society, though.

Plus if you think about how our society functions, nothing is natural. We live in man made structures, poop in sanitised toilets and we sleep in comfortable insulated beds. We also spend a lot of our time on electronically powered rectangles that are not natural.

That’s why people, not just women, but in general, might be uninterested in hearing naturalistic arguments.

I agree that there is some benefit to analysing how our ancestors lived and translating some of that to our lives, but there’s also so much cultural and technological baggage around us too. Technology is changing how people interact in the dating or social world in a big way. People who are Gen Z are below for example have a lot more social anxiety than previous generations and were raised in front of screens rather than with people as much. I believe this is having a huge impact on mate selection, because unfortunately women prefer socially confident men but they’re not raised to be as socially competent.

Planthoe30 · 2024-05-09T04:11:04+00:00

Why do people, especially women, have such a hard-time accepting that humans are also animals?

Humans are not fundamentally different from any other animal

Unrelated but from a vegan perspective it’s comical that the carnists would also make this argument.

For instance, women are horrified when men abandon their kids, but for the vast majority of human existence paternity was never certain.

So how far are we going back exactly? Like the Homo sapiens lineage began approximately 550,000-750,000 years ago.. You expect modern women to pay for the sins of the past that have nothing to do with them? Do you really believe this is a good argument for men abandoning their children?

In most mammals, males don't participate in childrearing at all.

Example of you reaching for excuses as to why you should be able to abandon your hopefully hypothetical children.

Solondthewookiee · 2024-05-09T04:16:14+00:00

Humans are not fundamentally different from any other animal,

Humans are so fundamentally different from every other animal that I'm not sure how you could have possibly missed it. The complexity of our cognition and reasoning means that humans are not bound by simple instinct and the complexity of thought also introduces great diversity of thought.

But whenever someone tries to bring up evolutionary biology/psychology into dating/sex discussions, many people, especially women seem repulsed and dismissive,

Because it is exclusively (and incorrectly) used to justify the red pill point of view. Red pillers will smugly tell you how it's evolution that women are all using "beta" men for their money or how it's okay to abandon kids, but get quite upset when it's pointed out that if they are unable to attract a partner, then their genes should not be passed on, or a lone woman being afraid of a strange man in an isolated area.

obviousredflag · 2024-05-09T09:11:45+00:00

Abandonning your suspected children was never selected for.

TheSkyIsData · 2024-05-09T04:28:05+00:00

too find the fact that people refusing to admit that humans are animals to be a cause of so so many problems.

On the abandoning children example, females also abandon their children quite frequently in the wild. They also will kill other females children, and have their own infighting that you would never hear about in a science or nature documentary for some reason.

I think in general society favorites women to the point of even other animals being anthropomorphized to fit this view that females are "innocent and full of unconditional love for their offspring" when that is so far from the case.

It does go both ways though. For example since males generally drive variation it's more beneficial for females in animals that mate for life to "cheat", since having offspring with multiple different fathers ensures their strength through variation.

I'm of the opinion that both red and blue pillers could benefit from viewing humans a little more naturally. Not in a way that I'm justifying these behaviors, because I'm not, but more so to be educated enough to make conclusions about society in general.

Inevitably in some ways which we've deviated from nature is going to have some negative effects, the same it has positives. For example artificial lighting basically destroying the healthy sleep cycles we used to have

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-05-09T04:35:12+00:00

Combination of ego being too big + magical thinking leads people to believe they are above other animals

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spacekiller69 · 2024-05-09T05:05:08+00:00

Humans are animals and behave very similar to our ape cousins despite what religion and society preaches but it doesn't justify behaving like a caveman in modern society though it gives the explanation why so many people are hateful greedy and violent.

CompetitiveTennis112 · 2024-05-09T05:37:09+00:00

You're probably right on how primate males aren't important to female child-rearing, so it shouldn't be surprising men will abandon their wives and children, or at least be much more uninvolved in the child-rearing process. This is probably fairly evident throughout human history as well.

But even though it's true, do you think it's better for a child to grow up with a disinterested/absent father? Does evolution not favor the child of dual-parents, rather than the child of a single mother?

In this regard we're maybe less like monkies of a troop who nurse each other's children, but more of a penguin community where we cluster for the benefits but still have individual family units.

Competitive-Ask4393 · 2024-05-09T05:42:36+00:00

Romanticising every aspect of life

fucksiclepizza · 2024-05-09T06:23:45+00:00

Sure humans are considered animals but clearly some of us are more evolved than others. I'm not a woman and I look down on pieces of shit who abandon their kids.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-05-09T07:11:13+00:00

We've done a whole lot of things that other animals haven't done. For example, a cat in London is going to have no idea what a cat in Birmingham us doing or even know that's a place that exists, while humans can spread ideas and be affected by those ideas across the globe. I don't know why you'd expect all these differences to have little to no effect. Unlike other animals who only have instinctual knowledge or knowledge from their immediate environment, we've developed sophisticated ways of recording and sharing knowledge and can base our decisions on anything in human history instead of crude instinct. We actually do know whose children are whose and if you're not sure we even have ways of finding out. And quite frankly, you'd even expect your cat to be quite different to other cats, although being a cat the nuances of their personality are harder to tell.

Siukslinis_acc · 2024-05-09T07:18:34+00:00

Because people everywhere had the notion drilled that we are something superior. Also, human centric view (anthropocentric).

There is also the thing of social moral development. Like pur values have changed over time. Like we lived in small, closely knit tribes where the whole tribe was watching over the kid (basically the kid belonged to the tribe and not the parents). While nowadays we live in an atomised society where each person is on their own and thus the kid is being watched by their parents.

So, we aren't living like animals, thus the expectation is that we don't behave like animals.

Also, in a similar vein, men complain when a woman is with them only for the resources. This is also an animalistic thing as recources are needed for survival. The more resources, the bigger the chance of survival.

BoomTheBear86 · 2024-05-09T08:45:06+00:00

Evo psyche is a theoretical approach to human behaviour development. Nothing more or less.

The problem is behaving like it is verified fact. It is highly contentious for a variety of reasons related to the method.

The most evident is it regularly begs the question when it comes to making claims it how humans were, y looking at how we are now, which is proof we were like that, and that we were like that is why we’re like we are now.

If you study carefully you’ll notice at no point did you prove anything about how we were in the past, it was assumed from the present and then that assumption is used to explain the present. It’s circular.

We don’t have enough information to make the claims evo psyche does with certainty. Explaining present behaviour in the present day is still an imprecise affair and riddled with challenges. Acting as if we somehow have a clearer view of how we behaved then when we have no observations to run off is ludicrous.

“We don’t know why we behave the way we do now, so let’s use how we behaved then to explain why.” Can’t anyone see the problem here? If you can’t explain behaviour now, why on earth would you be able to do it then? Short of bringing in dozens of assumptions to frame your premises from in lieu of evidence (not very scientific)

Remarkable_Rough_89 · 2024-05-09T08:56:14+00:00

superlurkage · 2024-05-09T10:06:21+00:00

Because that’s always the excuse for terrible things

obviouslymoose · 2024-05-09T10:34:04+00:00

I’m a woman and I’m 1000% an animal

BUTTT society exists. Like say we’re wolves for example, they have a very established society. If the omega decided to fuck the beta things would not go down well

No-Rough-7390 · 2024-05-09T10:36:59+00:00

Because it enables them to duck and dodge generalizations we can largely confirm through data and behavior regarding them.

Basically another “well I’m not like that…” kind of argument

bloblikeseacreature · 2024-05-09T10:51:24+00:00

just from an intellectual scientific perspective, the kind of stuff you hear being passed around is offensive. it's misapplied from what was junk science to begin with.

if even uneducated women are too smart and grounded to accept broscience arguments over their own experience, that's good on them and you should respect them for it.

lvoncreek · 2024-05-09T11:09:21+00:00

Thats usually just an excuse. Especially for men

UnhappyInevitable680 · 2024-05-09T11:11:00+00:00

Blue pillers aren’t getting it. They just can’t have nuanced opinions about things. Complex issues are easier to think about in extremes. This is evident of our political division. Every issue has only 2 positions, or no position. If I am for a country having borders, I am put in the conservative box, which is adjacent to the trump box, which is adjacent to the evil box, therefore I’m evil. It’s simpleton thinking, evolutionary psychology explains a lot of things about men and women but it’s easier on the mind to think everything is on a spectrum, nothing means anything, everything is valid, men bad women good.

lolthankstinder · 2024-05-09T11:17:37+00:00

We’re animals with higher level brains slapped on top that interact with animalistic brain functions in ways that are not fully understood. Women’s perception tends to align with feminism which champions the idea of socialization. With socialization, you can brainwash undesirable evolutionary tendencies away in children and influence how they manifest.

nightsofthesunkissed · 2024-05-09T11:32:29+00:00

There are plenty of animals who do a way better job than us of relationships and child-rearing though, lol.

You have male animals who will cover hundreds of miles to find food to bring back to their families, physically defend their families from predators, etc.

For instance, women are horrified when men abandon their kids

No shit.

Do you want to just say "Well it's your fault, you fucked an animal. Maybe he thought his kids weren't his or something, idk.. Maybe he saw a shiny object. Oh well" as an excuse for a man abandoning his family?

This post is a really stupid attempt at trying to invalidate genuine concerns under the guise that men are incompetent pieces of shit who will go "oonga boonga" and leave their family to chase another woman.

No_Assumption_5864 · 2024-05-09T11:33:55+00:00

Superiority complex, however based from my experience usually are religious people the ones who most of times see humans as a separate beings from animals and nature

TheDuellist100 · 2024-05-09T11:41:48+00:00

Humans are rising beasts. Our ability to perceive and manipulate the universe is vastly superior to that of other species. Evolution tells us all we need to know about males and females. Our ancestors were on the right track. We are living in a minor blip in human history were security is so high, we are so convinced of our "specialness" that we think humans are equal and we can all get along in some communist utopia.

RelationshipSalty369 · 2024-05-09T11:59:40+00:00

Because it's only ever used in defence of shitty behaviour.

Sparkling_gourami · 2024-05-09T12:10:22+00:00

I think people dismiss that we’re just animals because most of it is happening on a level we aren’t conscious of. For instance, there is a lot of evidence to point towards men being more attracted to women in their peak fertility window, and women being more sexually open during their peak fertility window. I’m curious if other men have experienced this, but sometimes a woman I didn’t feel particularly attracted to suddenly becomes attractive for a short period of time, I wonder if that’s what happened.

Apparently women can also pick up on the smell of men’s immune systems and are more attracted to men who have a different one then there.

I think on some level, admitting there is a lot of stuff happening on a subconscious level that we are completely unaware is kind of scary for people. We like to think of ourselves as very independent.

For your example of the father leaving, while I’d agree it’s probably easily for a father to give up kids than a mom, that person is still bad and the decision isn’t justified. We have culture evolution too, which is what makes humans unique. Our culture says abandoning children is wrong. You could even argue the community outcasting men who do this as part of our evolution.

2024-05-09T04:36:49+00:00

It’s insulting to their ego.

Just look at some of the responses in here.

There’s even some reductionist arguments in here hung up on the fact that red pillers are hyper fixated on a couple evo psych ideas (like Rollo Tomassi), but that doesn’t have any bearing on the dozens (hundreds?) of studies on dating, sexuality, and relationships done by people that don’t have “Evolutionary Psychology” written on their degree that show predictable patterns of human behavior.

May as well just let them self-pleasure to idea that culture and nurture define human characteristics and we can ascend to becoming Demi gods with the power of education and reason.

Your cousin got shot in 2016 when a kid fell in his cage.

Title	Why do people, especially women, have such a hard-time accepting that humans are also animals?
Author	Total_Yankee_Death
Upvotes	3
Comments	129
Date	May 9, 2024 3:28 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cnnlls/why_do_people_especially_women_have_such_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-do-people-especially-women-have-such-a-hard.1517936 https://theredarchive.com/post/1517936

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