How Come PUA's Are Getting So Much Flack Now Whereas Earlier They Were Ok?

Lonely_23_1997 · 2022-01-29T14:27:10+00:00

It’s because their scam is well known now. It’s like a crappy business that flew under the radar until people started leaving bad reviews.

trolltaskforce · 2022-01-29T10:22:28+00:00

The main problem I have with PUAs is that many of them are fraudsters and scam artists. Maybe only a small minority of them are legit, the rest are just jumping a bandwagon to make money or get fame. I think their downfall started with the incels starting criticizing them, and the shitting on redpill PUA scam artists eventually lead to the blackpill.

M3taBuster · 2022-01-29T10:31:43+00:00

Granted I am young, but I don't remember a time when PUAs weren't criticized. I remember them being criticized as far back as 2012 or so (when I was old enough to be aware of these things). Sure, maybe the nature of the criticism has shifted to regarding them as predatory in a sense, when it used to be that they were just smarmy, distasteful, etc. But there has always been some form of criticism as far as I know.

lulll · 2022-01-29T13:15:07+00:00

someone literally needs to be on the spectrum to take pua seriously, it has always been a joke. i laugh every time i see some idiot getting scammed by these losers. the funniest guys are the spergs who try to wrap up pua into this self improvement thing and start crying that its about bettering yourself lol

RinoaRita · 2022-01-29T13:07:42+00:00

I think the ones that label and market themselves as pua are actually more exploitative of men than women. It’s the male equivalent of essential oil huns. Results not guaranteed and it likely won’t work but promises results and gives hope.

purplish_possum · 2022-01-29T18:03:06+00:00

PUA was always cringy AF.

UnitedIntroduction48 · 2022-01-29T13:32:07+00:00

Because dating apps and covid killed their gig. Not saying you can’t still cold approach people but people usually meet through friends or an app. It looks kinda creepy these days if you go to a public area for the purpose of finding women that you can date

hemaristhysbe · 2022-01-29T16:55:50+00:00

1) The men who “teach” are making money on clicks and subscriptions, like every other snake oil salesman. The product does not deliver and the field reports are complete fabrications.

2) They teach men to skip a social life and a social circle and set them up for a lifetime of loneliness by convincing socially awkward men that they can attain an endless supply of attention from women. Can’t do this without a social circle and social proof.

3) The claims of “it’s a numbers game” means that socially awkward men spend hours or months of their lives making an utter nuisance of themselves by stalking women in non-social venues

4) Same men ever learn how to operate in social venues, where the odds of making friends and social connections are much higher

5) It’s exploitative of vulnerable men who actually believe there is a magic spell or cheat code to getting laid because they are desperate to believe that field reports and successes are real.

6) Sending socially awkward, vulnerable men into the world to pester strangers is setting them up for thousands of rejections which are humiliating and corrosive.

7) Practitioners objectify and actively dislike women and don’t view them as people but as a means to an end. Planting that kind of distrust and hate in half the population isn’t constructive.

8) It convinces men that they must pretend to be someone else and act as though they fit in. This isn’t “fake it till you make it”; pretending to be confident and outgoing comes across as insincere and stilted, which is going to guarantee rejections and discomfort from others, thus reinforcing the social isolation.

9) Men who subscribe to this snake oil are by nature solitary and/or introverted. Encouraging them to pretend to be gregarious and socially outgoing sets them up to fail. If they manage to convince one woman out of 100 approaches to go out with them, that woman is going to assume they truly are social and friendly. When it’s revealed that he is solitary and prefers staying in, they both lose. Pretending to be someone you are not is a recipe for failure.

10) PUA teaches men that women enjoy unsolicited attention, teaches them to follow women until they are alone, teaches them that women who have noticed a strange man staring at them are giving “indicators of interest” when it’s most likely the woman has noticed a stalker and is keeping an eye on him. All of these “social cues” are gross misreads of human behavior which just make it more difficult for an awkward man to understand and relate to others in the future because they believe in magical signals which aren’t there.

It also annoys the hell out of women, but the concerns that I see are how PUA exploits a vulnerable, gullible population of men with outlandish promises of success and lies. Then ultimately leaves them wandering around alone, bugging the hell out of strangers while leaving them with zero social proof or a social circle.

flapperfemmefatale · 2022-01-29T15:23:11+00:00

Were they ever okay? I remember being in high school, my friends and I making fun of the creepy guys who hit on you in ways that were obviously rehearsed and practiced.

PainAdministrative52 · 2022-01-29T16:28:12+00:00

Many PUA had been exposed by hiring models to sell you the idea that some average/below average guy can seduce any girl. It was a major cheme in the early 2010s. For instance one guy called RSD Tyler (Owen Cook by now) was exposed then he switched his audience to Redpill/Self Improvement kind of stuff to get his money supply.

bison5595 · 2022-01-29T10:38:02+00:00

PUA are scammers. I am surprised that they are still a thing,

M_LaSalle · 2022-01-30T06:04:31+00:00

Possible explanations:

1.) We live in an age of increasing censorship, and PUA's are politically incorrect. Anyone purporting to teach real men how to attract and seduce real women is likely to be regarded by the high sheriffs of the internet in the same way they would regard someone questioning the legitimacy of the 2020 election, or the effectiveness of the vaccine

2.) It is dawning on people that most of the success stories you see on places like the Red Pill sub are fake. Some number of users have some amount of sucess, and so there are still users, but for most guys what PUA courses actually deliver is far less than what they thought they were promised. PUA courses haven't quite made it down to the level of baby sea monkeys and X-ray specs for credibility, but they're getting there.

3.) PUA was based on the idea that men could be attractive to, and successfully attract, women they interacted with in real life. One result of the collateral damage done to society by the Covid response is that there are far fewer opportunities to interact with real women in real life. Sometime in the last two years the window during which cold approach was viable began to close. For most people now, their virtual social world is more important than their real liife social world, if they even have one. The PUA skill set is thus sharply devalued, even though the validity of Red Pill in describing female sexuality remains.

clitorophagy · 2022-01-29T12:38:05+00:00

“pick up artist” has never been a compliment. This term has always been used for men who trick women into thinking they are serious when they are just looking to pump and dump. Women hated this years ago too

TheJim66 · 2022-01-29T10:49:30+00:00

Three reasons:

-OLD has made approaching harder and less common than it used to be. So men go sour grapes about PUA.

-A lot of PUAs are scammers because scamming is the most profitable way to be one. You could be honest and say that looks are a big limiting factor of your success and while you can get better results regardless of your looks, you won't be a slayer if you are ugly..... Or you could bullshit people and not alienate the majority of your target audience.

-Usual feminist bullshit.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-01-29T10:17:13+00:00

There's always been a fine line between putting one's best foot forward and outright deception/manipulation.

Anything calling itself 'pick up artistry' seems likely to be leaning towards the latter. Everything legitimate about PUA can be learned in a less sexually charged way. Fitness for fitness sake. Learning about style to be attractive in general, rather than aimed at how to impress a girl at a bar with your uniqueness so as to get laid in the next hour. Toastmasters or other social skills programs. The list goes on and on.

Women want what they want, and reserve the right to have their own standards. But evaluating a guy, especially quickly, is tricky. Thus, women naturally develop imperfect heuristics. Gaming those heuristics so as to appear to be what you are not in order to get laid is classic deception/manipulation, and is essentially an attempt to end run women's sexual selection process. Of course women are gonna hate that. And so they should.

So guys should just actually BECOME better. But show themselves as how they honestly are at every stage of their evolution, and accept women's judgment. If that means no sex ever until you are at another level, so fucking be it. That's life.

Not being yourself is self-defeating in a relationship, as eventually your true self will emerge unless you are a complete sociopath. (And then we need another conversation.) The problem is that if the aim is just sex, then pretending can often work. You may get found out, which then ends the chance of a real relationship. But if all the guys wanted was that first sex, they get what they think they want. Meanwhile, the women get the deceived and feel used. And they have been.

Pola_Lita · 2022-01-29T10:21:49+00:00

To me it just sounds like they're trying to improve their social skills and flirting skills, so they can connect better with people. And to do that you need to practice.......and what better way to practice than talking to numerous people?

Are you seriously saying PUA-ing is basically just a personal version of Toastmasters?

I've always seen them as predatory, exploiting a woman's naiveté to gain access to her body by appearing to be what they are not.

Maybe there was a completely different version a long time ago?

Suck-Less · 2022-01-29T10:10:04+00:00

The real question is why don’t we have a term for women that are “free shit artists.”

Perseus_the_Bold · 2022-01-29T23:44:03+00:00

PUAs were NEVER ok. We have been deridng them as Weasels in Disguise since the very beginning.

We do not hate them because they "exploit women." We hate them because they are hucksters exploiting other men! They are con artists selling their bullshit to unsuspecting simps and then attempt to bullshitting the rest of us into buying into their gynocentric garbage using the same Macho Card that feminists use. They spin the narrative that "you're not a real man unless you're dripping in bitches" and "You need female validation to be a man!" These positions are extremely emasculating and disgusting to men who go their own way.

Any man whose ego needs female approval in order to feel validated in the world is so emotionally castrated by that point that he is essentially a psychological eunuch already!

These consumers of PUA content are what we call Simps. It's the reason women feel safe around them and emboldened to boss them around without consequence or fear of retaliation because they've already been neutered and de-fanged while they think they are being most manly.

PUAs are responsible for priming more and more young men into thirsting after women up to a point where they forfeit their actual manhood to achieve it; even if all they ever get from a woman is derision and disgust. This is because some attention from women towards these spineless beasts is better than getting no attention at all.

We have been cursing PUAs since the very beginning because were never fooled by their sneaky weaselish skirt-worshiping bullshit. They are hucksters selling counterfeit masculinity to a crowd of gullible and immature men who believe that their manhood can be found in the opinionated approval of women.

MGTOW strives to achieve freedom from thirst. We renounce women because our dignity as men is not to be bargained with for a bit of attention like a dog begging for a treat. MGTOW is born out of the idea that men are better than their biological urges. And that these are so often the cause of our degradation in life. So many men do so much stupid shit because they are slaves to their dick, all a woman has to do is put a leash on it and the man is not a man anymore, he's now a simp, a skirt dog.

ThorLives · 2022-01-29T17:44:34+00:00

I don't remember any time on PPD where people were okay with pickup and PUAs.

ruboyuri · 2022-01-29T23:58:31+00:00

I don’t remember a persecution movement lately. Anyone able to clarify ?

AnonRb6 · 2022-01-30T05:19:10+00:00

I think they always had flak since the start to be honest with you.

SylvestorTalone · 2022-01-30T08:40:38+00:00

They're getting it from both sides now as women don't like the message, and men realize they are frauds.

the-lone-squid · 2022-01-30T13:28:15+00:00

Because most of the popular pua’s are unattractive dorks way past their prime who are just ripping people off.

Or literal kucks… like that Jack murphy tool

manfrom-nantucket · 2022-01-29T10:08:57+00:00

The flak is largely coming from simps who are desperate for female validation and women who fucked those guys only to realize that their investment went nowhere.

mandoa_sky · 2022-01-29T14:32:10+00:00

there are lots of PUAs that have been busted for r***. all you need is a quick google search

NoMarriageNoKids · 2022-01-29T14:01:24+00:00

Most women are PUAs themselves.

BloofGoober · 2022-01-29T10:18:54+00:00

Because people with two brain cells to rub together are realizing what a crock-of-shit the redpill is generally.

gimpgirl555 · 2022-01-29T10:09:05+00:00

I wonder why this is? Is PUA-ing really toxic? Or are people just running out of real problems to focus on?

Millennial women have hit the wall and are tired of getting pump & dumped. Therefore PUA is practically illegal now.

It was encouraged 10 years ago because it gave women many suitors.

The socially acceptable way to court older women now is expensive dinner dates, and no sex before commitment. See /fds for instructions.

ginagj · 2022-01-29T12:02:41+00:00

This is a fake outrage issue. Same with cat calling. Heaven forbid a man try to chat a women up or tell a women she’s beautiful! I’m so bored of women and their fake pearl clutching attitude and I am a women! I can’t begin to think of how bored and exhausted the men are with us.

mydlo96 · 2022-01-29T13:24:18+00:00

Beta male tryhard strategy to be alpha. It's like robbing a store instead of working to increase your wealth. HVM dont need that. Males should fight the cause not the effect. On the other hand females don't care to examine their weak spots and it is easier to blame males.

Aurelius-chfn09a · 2022-01-29T13:52:22+00:00

To be honest, I've always regarded that type of man with mild contempt. Why on earth would a man devote so much time and effort to chasing women, when they add so little value to our lives? Prior to puberty, boys and girls wanted nothing to do with one another. We realized that we have different interests, different personalities, and different physical abilities, and that we just weren't compatible on any level. We have literally nothing in common. I submit that the only reason men and women seek out each other's company is because of the sex drive that takes control of us at puberty; take that away, and we would return to our former states, free of all the headaches of having to deal with the opposite sex.

BlockedAgainIGuess · 2022-01-29T15:05:28+00:00

They’ve been getting flak since The Game my dude, where you been?

Demasii · 2022-01-29T15:06:47+00:00

PUA went from a underground community that genuinely helped men get over their shyness to internet scam artists looking to make money.

Rapists like Alex Smith who exploited the system doesn't help either. Popularity ruin things.

People also have gotten use to OLD that the idea of being in an uncomfortable position to simply state that they are "not interested" to some stranger cold approaching causes them stress.

kentucky-windage · 2022-01-29T17:43:16+00:00

It’s always had a very negative connotation for me. They’re weak men who attract partners based on schemes instead of their character. Maybe if you spent all that time learning something cool more chicks would want to fuck you. Idk.

Square_Inflation_534 · 2022-01-29T12:05:59+00:00

There's more women on reddit. Women don't like PUAs for a number of reasons.

Ohmaygahh · 2022-01-29T14:58:20+00:00

"PUAs" have always gotten a lot of eyerolls and flack in the mainstream since forever. You can look up on youtube interviews with Neil Strauss ( the jessica alba one is a good one ) and I distinctly remember an interview on Oprah in the early 90s in which a thin white guy in a black turtle neck was getting grilled with a lot of disapproval from the audience; and what he was espousing was totally true and right. I'm blanking on his name.

even the term "Casanova" comes with a negative connotation. It seems women detest men who try to learn and understand women and attempt to improve their sexual lives. I don't understand why the strong antagonistic response to it.

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2022-01-29T11:45:31+00:00

Wtf is PUAing 😆

Alburg9000 · 2022-01-29T14:07:33+00:00

Cause theyre seen as parallel to incel culture

Redpill, incel, pua…all focus on women too much thats what puts people off

EdessaKandros · 2022-01-29T14:21:29+00:00

I don’t see anything wrong with pick up artists. It’s what men do, try to get women. I think there are some PUAs that might behave in predatory ways but one person doing someone bad doesn’t reflect badly on an entire group of people.

80hdADHD · 2022-01-29T19:44:19+00:00

Mass approaching is choosing to step outside of social boundaries and ignore the signals that people are uncomfortable with how you’re acting. It’s also objectifying because each woman is being sort of simplified and sorted in the PUA’s mind, which gets more toxic as the numbers increase. Not to mention the PUA’s are clearly narcissistic a lot of the time, and they encourage a hyper focus on the pursuit of one goal while interacting with all of these women instead of slowing down and putting in the time and effort necessary to understand them as people.

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Yahween · 2022-01-29T16:17:09+00:00

Because it takes most people a while to catch on to snake oil salesmen.

sarkington · 2022-01-29T16:20:30+00:00

I don’t see any recent flak

Mark_Freed · 2022-01-29T16:38:46+00:00

[permanently deleted]

kayama57 · 2022-01-29T17:29:58+00:00

If PUAs didn’t turn their collective identity into the narrow minded exclusive pursuit of higher body count maybe the movement would have a better reputation.

It takes just a few percent of bad apples to have reason to discard a whole crop

Smitten_Squire · 2022-01-29T18:08:31+00:00

When it became more popular and associated with fedoras

Optionsmfd · 2022-01-29T21:11:38+00:00

i didnt realize there were current PUA........ thought that was in the past

Popular-Rate3182 · 2022-01-29T21:40:55+00:00

AMS IS THE ONLY ONE INTRUST

JacobMoogberg69 · 2022-01-29T22:43:16+00:00

Omg I was there in the early days and back then it was just a man internet community of guys who exchanged pick up lines and tips on how to get laid in bars. But then super weird spergs like Mystery and his ilk became famous and it was flooded by a bunch of autists and low self esteem losers.

kimvadan · 2022-01-29T23:45:41+00:00

PUA - Public Urinal Anxiety?

Effective-Walrus1157 · 2022-01-30T04:42:32+00:00

I've never had a problem with PUAs as a woman. I agree a lot of their strategies work. I dated a guy who helped men meet women by teaching PUA techniques and I loved that he helped his fellow dudes.

What's toxic to me is these guys who sell $80 or ridiculously expensive classes to teach the world's most basic shit.

I also don't love the hatred against women some PUAs spew, which is increasing nowadays.

I love the ones who help men improve themselves, but certain ones basically preach women are idiots who don't like most men and deserve to be scammed. They're setting men up for misery and it pisses me off.

Especially these guys who go on about alpha and beta shit - I agree a lot of guys need to develop a backbone. I don't agree teaching men that disregarding other people's feelings and being a jerk is somehow a path to success. They're setting men up for miserable relationships where they always attempt to be the alpha instead of bonding with their partner, and I've seen real-life results of this that are embarrassing.

Ever had a socially awkward dude hit on you randomly and when you politely ask him to leave you alone, he tells you he's not like those other men cuz he's DOMINANT and won't go away?

It kills me. Telling a socially awkward guy to just be a jerk, insist she talk to you anyway, and ignore her as a person is so mean to that poor guy I don't have words.

TLDR: PUAs of the past fave better advice than "YOU'RE A MAN ACT LIKE A DICK TO GET WOMEN"

ledatherockband · 2022-01-30T07:14:23+00:00

They always caught shit. Maybe it’s one of those things where you weren’t aware of it and now that you’ve noticed you see it every where?

WilliamWyattD · 2022-01-30T13:31:16+00:00

PUA was the origin of TRP. There was a time when PUA was the only modern source of non-PC distorted and practically applied gender and sexual dynamics truths.

Now there are other sources that are less aimed at merely trying to use shortcuts to get one-night stands. This is better, but a deeper misogyny has also crept into the new manosphere.

I don't really have an answer to the OP's specific question; I'm not even sure if if I completely agree with his premise. I just want to point out that as various aspects of the manosphere have developed and evolved, so too have the toxic elements that always seem to go along with them. Thus new reasons to value the manosphere, and new reasons to hate it.

Simple-Dimension3806 · 2022-01-30T22:31:56+00:00

PUAs get these women foaming at their mouths. If women can play dirty men should too.

Xenomarph · 2022-01-31T02:43:37+00:00

People have always kinda hated PUAs. You apparently haven't paid attention these past 15 years.

Even someone like me, who sees the utility in a lot of the stuff they teach, gets irritated at all the wannabe PUAs out at bars.

lkfb94 · 2022-01-29T19:10:55+00:00

The whole PUA thing is backwards.

It’s psychopathic.

It is good to go through it and leave it, having gained what you thought would be success, and in fact wasn’t.

Im_The_Daiquiri_Man · 2022-01-29T19:14:21+00:00

The now defunct website “PUAHate” covered this years ago.

PUA’s (like Mystery) are pathetic grifters.

Any good, actionable advice the PUA movement had was rolled into TRP long ago.

The PUA movement had utterly dumb shit like NLP techniques (another grift) and “approach from a 32 degree angle and gesture to your cock when discussing food.” 😂

How Come PUA's Are Getting So Much Flack Now Whereas Earlier They Were Ok?

Comments

Ethics and Morality

Title	How Come PUA's Are Getting So Much Flack Now Whereas Earlier They Were Ok?
Author	ThunderToffee
Upvotes	24
Comments	285
Date	January 29, 2022 10:06 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/sff2ws/how_come_puas_are_getting_so_much_flack_now/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-come-puas-are-getting-so-much-flack-now.1099113 https://theredarchive.com/post/1099113