Is the collapse of the middle class producing more LVM?

rinabean · 2021-11-15T21:45:21+00:00

It is because of feminism, though. It doesn't mean feminism is wrong. Like you said, it means women can walk away.

You will see that millionaire men slaughter their families when their stocks take a tumble. Poverty is stressful, but that's not poverty. Men think they're allowed to behave like this at every level of society, and they'll take the slightest excuse. On the milder end, think about all the men who complain about golddiggers. Yes, for some it's hilarious that they think women are interested in stealing some of their debt, but many of them actually do have nice lifestyles - just no respect for women.

I think maybe you're also overlooking how common cheating is and just that it's easier to hide when you have a office job where you can pretend you're staying late, where you have spare money for hotel rooms and so on. Money can also glue bad marriages together. Think of women who get nannies and cleaners because their husbands are lazy. The woman with less money either has to put up with being a servant or leave him. The woman with more money who stayed doesn't actually have a HVM though. But she won't look like a single mother from the outside, so maybe she flies under the radar.

All these explanations that affect women just as much as men can't explain men's behaviour. It also can't explain how women-respecting men raised women-disrespecting sons. It's true that women's behaviour can affect men's, but why should economic stress alone cause men to mistreat women and women to allow themselves to be mistreated? It's not the variable. It's women clawing back their rights and men not liking it. A sexist backlash that encourages women to put up with shitty behaviour so men can still feel bigger than us. And that applies to every single woman and man alive.

LonchuraStriata · 2021-11-15T18:17:11+00:00

I think a lot of it also has to do with increased mobility (which is demanded by employers... who works for the same employer for their whole life anymore?) and the following erosion of small communal structures:

In a small, halfway closed community like a village or city quarter where everyone knows each others families there is a certain social pressure to behave according to certain moral principles (whatever they may be in your culture). Getting shunned or shamed by the community for inappropriate behaviour is a real thing with real consequences for yourself and your whole family (like not getting a job, your neighbors not helping you out anymore, being pushed out of clubs and charities, being kept "out of the loop", people not wanting their kids to hang out with yours...). I grew up in a small village (western Europe) in the 90s and that was definitely still a thing that kept us "in line" as kids and teenagers. The consequences of misbehaving were very real and "what will the neighbors think" was worse than anything the law could have threatened us with - at least in our minds. I remember a case of an older teenager stalking and harrassing the neighbor's daughter. When people found out what was going on and that the mother had even tried to cover for her son and discredit the girl, that whole family was basically dead to everyone and they ultimately had to move away. But something like that only works in communities where there is not a lot of fluctuation - and they are dieing everywhere. Anonymity protects people like this and enables them to slowly escalate.

If you bought a porn magazine at the gas station, someone saw your car in front of a sex shop one town over or you got a suspicious parcel, you bet that the whole village knew that "Mr Smith is secretely a pervert. His poor wife! If his mother was still alive she'd drop dead for shame. I am certainly not going to let my children play over there anymore..." the next day.

millennialpink2000 · 2021-11-15T17:57:20+00:00

Spot on. Entire GENERATIONS will never own a home, have a family and comfortably support themselves because our society is too corrupt to fix it. We'd rather praise a handful of men for flying to space for 10 seconds. OF COURSE there will be social ramifications of this, we're currently living in this horrendous experiment. Last time it was this bad the French at least had the courtesy to cut some heads off and revolt.

Buttercup5555 · 2021-11-15T18:56:49+00:00

What is scaring me so much is that I see red pill vernacular creeping into conversations and content consumed by the middle or upper middle/upper class (these all being relative). Just now was watching a youtube video by a certain prestigious university professor on a subject that is supposed to be neutral yet I see he is covertly supporting manosphere and the comment section under the video is full of the said red pill phrases and obvious lv behaviour.

ETA: it's not Jordan Peterson, yet both of them were guests on a lot of the same problematic podcasts/shows

kansascitydream · 2021-11-15T21:48:33+00:00

I grew up poor/working class. I only date middle class and up now. I now have a well paying job. I am glad that I scratched my way out of poverty. I can confirm: men that are poor are more likely to be abusive , have mental problems,do drugs and cheat. I’m pretty sure there are also studies on this. I am not classist . I grew up and spent my early 20s dating men within my own class (poor). I agree. The collapse of the middle class and poverty causes lv behaviour. Some of the stuff I have witnessed in the poorer communities is so disturbing, I will not even post it here. Become financially stable sisters. Fight for it. Do not date men that are financially unstable. If you live in poverty, with no escape, do not date men in your own class. Date a class above you. Unless you want to deal with the LV stuff that comes with men in the poorer class.

Mysterious_Call_924 · 2021-11-15T18:06:48+00:00

I think you've made some compelling points, however, I wouldn't glorify the Boomer generations values and culture. My grandmother, a boomer, wasn't allowed to wear pants to work. When she became pregnant they fired her because seeing a pregnant woman's stomach was considered "indecent".

Also, there simply wasn't the same access to porn and some of the negative addictions we have today because technology wasn't as advanced. Boomers didn't have phones and computers that could bring up any type of porn you could imagine. Also, there were no dating apps or online ads that people today can use to cheat. So I don't think it was due to any sort of "superior Boomer values" that the culture then was different than it is now 😂

I think it's too broad to say that there is any such thing as a good middle class man. People are simply people. Also, you can be poor and still be raised with an excellent upbringing. I consider upbringing to be more about having someone who loves you and wants the best for you rather than about money.

I agree with u/repurposedschleem that there is a general sense of nihilism today due to lack of upward mobility and lack of access to healthcare. It's easy to seem good when you have a tidy home and money for food and family. The Boomer generations version of poverty is our generations version of a dream life. This generation is not filled with poverty, it's filled with trapped people. I'm not sure calling us impoverished is the right word. Education-wise, we are by far the most educated. In a way we have access to everything with our advancements in tech. BUT we don't have access to the basic things most Boomers had like housing, food, healthcare, etc.

It's a complex issue. But it's not one solved by faith or core values (and I'm religious). That's what we've been fed over and over again by the older generations. These are issues solved by unionization and labor rights.

DogsCanAlwaysTell · 2021-11-15T18:30:35+00:00

To be completely honest I do think there is classism in this post. I can understand why you have come to think this way but I think there are other things at play.

1) it is only in recent generations that western countries have separated church from state. We have benefitted from a culture influenced by Christian/Catholic values, but in recent decades that influence has eroded. LVM aren’t being raised with those values anymore. Men don’t feel the need to stick around to raise kids anymore, it’s more acceptable to be a deadbeat.

2) Women have only joined the workforce very recently, and finally gained the right to be independent and choose a man they want. In previous generations you were, essentially, forced to remain with whichever man you ended up with. Divorce was looked down on. And even if you divorced, you had no means to support yourself. So it didn’t happen. These days we can up and leave at our leisure, so a lot of LVM are showing themselves by expressing their bitterness at women leaving them.

3) I am from a working class family who did well. I grew up very comfortable. My dad grew up in poverty, raised by two catholic parents who fled Ireland due to the ongoing terrorism at the time. My dad is a HVM. He had catholic family values instilled into him, ie. you find a good woman, treat her well and stick with her.

With that, at university and through jobs etc I met and befriended a lot of very wealthy people. What I notice is that wealthy people act just as low value if not more. The difference is that wealthy people have the wealth and connections to get away with the shit they pull. It doesn’t matter if they burn a bridge. They can just up and move. They can just take a break to travel and come back fresh. They can buy their way out of most things. They can pay off the mistress.

I know someone who got caught drunk driving red handed. Her parents took care of it, no charges, and bought her a new car. Most toxic person I’ve met in a while. I met many a guy living in luxury apartments bought by parents. They were entitled womanisers.

LV people can ‘give up’ and make themselves the victim in any situation they are in. That includes even if they are literal millionaires. Low value is a mentality. You can put any cold-hearted, entitled, scummy person in luxury brands - it doesn’t stop them being scummy.

But I do agree that at a base level, a HVM won’t allow a lot of situations that lead to ‘Jerry Springer’ type situations. However, wealthy people aren’t immune from those exact situations, they just have the money to let the problems be dealt with quietly by family lawyers and therapists.

srslyitsbad · 2021-11-15T18:33:53+00:00

I think that degeneracy is being pushed like never before through the media and pop culture while at the same time we are under the constant exposure of media manipulation. Thanks to technology, people are under constant mind control and the messages being sent are a breeding ground for people becoming unhappy degenerates.

shockingupdate · 2021-11-15T19:43:44+00:00

Sometimes low-class and low-value meet in the middle and multiply. Upward mobility is coming to a grinding halt in the US. It’s becoming harder and harder for any of us to progress beyond the class we were born into. The shrinking middle class looks to religion or cultural institutions for support, which also gets hit hard by economic decline. So it’s like we’re living in a feedback loop of stress and disillusionment. Some people will have the ambition (and luck) to rise above the odds mounting against us, some won’t. We also know that LVM who are “StReSsEd” are likely to leave their families behind regardless of their purported Christian values etc. We’re in a situation that breeds LVM - from the fathers who vanish into the ether, to men who can’t find a woman to “build them up,” to those who resent their own mother for letting them live rent-free, to sons who somehow blame women for all of the above MALE behaviors.

Some of us (me lol) were born into poverty and raised with pickme values. In my case, I learned through experience that LVM never help a woman without expecting 10 times more in return. To get out of the hood we have to keep ourselves afloat and motivated enough to earn a better life - and we’ve been doing that in droves, often supporting each other/our families and shaking off our pickmeism along the way. Scrotes hate to see women succeed, especially while they’re still jacking off in Mom’s basement. And as we know here on this lovely site, contempt breeds more contempt. Again, instead of buckling down and rolling with the punches they get on Reddit and blame us for not providing them with opportunities to get ahead, producing even more LVM as they “warn” each other not to fall for our m*sandrist lies about [checks notes] wanting equal partnership. 🤷🏾‍♀️

ImpressiveHat8550 · 2021-11-15T17:54:09+00:00

LVMs just seem to be increasing all together regardless of race, nationality, religion or income level. For me it feels like the brotherhood seems to be growing and forging stronger bonds over the mutual anger and even fear of the unmasking and dethroning of male supremacy around the world. Men are now almost eager to defend and cover for other mens bad behaviour and the rules of misogyny are in full play. On the other hand the sisterhood is weakening because women are holding other women to standard now more than ever (calling out various inequalities, defending bad male behaviour, allowing abusive men to commit abuse against children and cover for them, ect) Women are making strides and levelling up and it shows. Men aren’t and it shows.

Edit: I don’t know if the sisterhood is weakening is the right phrase. More or less women are now less likely to tolerate, excuse or downplay bad, abusive and toxic behaviour from other women. Men are doing literally the exact opposite.

Alarmed-Seat-4664 · 2021-11-15T21:51:48+00:00

My bf is an engineer and im a data analyst and we wont be able to buy a nice house without bringing my parents along and selling their house as a down payment. Youre either super wealthy or working class. An engineer and data analyst being working class???

hopeful_flounder93 · 2021-11-15T21:06:17+00:00

As someone from a family that endured unspeakable hardship, I feel like I can contribute some hope here. I totally see what you're saying, but there is hope.

My grandparents were in the concentration camps & had everything, and I mean everything taken away from them. My grandfathers on both sides? Still as HV as they come. Was it a different era? Yeah, definitely. But the post-WWII USSR had it's own challenges, and my life in the modern-day West is a world apart.

My parents immigrated to Canada in their mid-30's, as refugees, barely speaking any English, and with a combined total of about $10 in their name. The worked minimum wage jobs their entire lives (jobs that certainly still exist today) - my mom was a cleaner and my dad a carpenter. They lived in near-abject poverty. They were treated like garbage for most of their lives, it was horrible to watch - the discrimination immigrants face in a new place is real and palpable. They experienced work-related injuries and psychological torment that, had they been born there & knew the language, would have entitled them to millions in compensation. They were treated like trash and taken advantage of at every single opportunity.

And you know what?

My dad is still the most HV man I've ever known, and he treats my mom like gold. Seriously, they went through life with the strongest, most admirable marriage I've ever seen. He fits FDS's description of a genuinely good man to a tee.

These "rednecks" you're describing and their embarrassing behaviours are due to something else. It's entitlement, plain and simple. It's contributing nothing to the world and expecting everything in return. I know these types, they'd be shitty no matter what environment they're raised in.

And in case you're wondering, this story had a happy ending: I've educated the ever-living crap out of myself (with the paycheck to match), and my parents are experiencing one hell of a retirement ;)

repurposedschleem · 2021-11-15T17:44:05+00:00

I think this is fascinating and I’ve wondered about this myself, having come from generations of poverty and wondering which comes first.

I believe that the fact that many men (& women!) my age (late 20s) don’t really see a future — in the US we’re terminally underpaid, with no real parental leave, 401ks are vulnerable to economic shifts, most of us are a back injury or ruined transmission away from irreversible economic ruin, etc etc, has definitely created some kind of cultural nihilism among the more economically vulnerable. The rugged individualism we’ve been forcefed by the beneficiaries of corporate-socialism has ruined the sense of community that kept our poorest forefathers and foremothers going. So, deaths of despair are way up than they were. I think it makes total sense that the hopelessness pervading what used to be the middle class is leaching into other life arenas — why marry if you can’t afford a home or children? Why commit when you’ll never be able to afford building a future? This isn’t to excuse those behaviors — putting effort into trying is the only thing that’s ever made anything better — but I think it helps explain the situation a little.

No baby boy is born LV. Their upbringing, their circumstances, their perceived hopeless future teaches them to lash out, and just as it always has been since time immemorial, women by and large are the targets.

huevos_and_whiskey · 2021-11-16T05:54:11+00:00

Some of the trashiest people I have ever met live in million+ dollar houses.

modernmedusaa · 2021-11-15T23:06:32+00:00

Context is everything, none of this happened overnight, its generations of women taking mens shit...and most women are feeling the effects of it

I don't think you can say its strictly a class thing...its more of a sex class issue....as misogyny cuts through economic classes but yes working class women / minorities tend to feel the pinch most...especially in this casual sex free for all culture where men are pornsick and don't want to pay, protect or provide.

Ofc working class women will struggle more...if they choose the wrong mate...they can end up handicapped stuck in poverty but being honest its real slim pickings in working class areas at the best of times...which is why it pays to be fussy

What men have been doing to us and society is actually shameful- the more you learn about it the more you understand why society is a hot mess

Realistically nature is a MATRIARCHY- where females ONLY mate with males that have good health and expect them to provide. If they don't treat them well or seem incompetent- they leave. The competent males in nature are meant to protect the females and keep the inferior males in line. That way everything is more balanced.

Female nature is HARSH and ruthless- more in line with what FDS preaches. The females have more at risk when dating, even if they don't want kids....which is why they should be very selective. Instead women get brainwashed into having low standards and accommodating low value men who don't even respect them....but also don't forget men have threatened and handicapped us in order to maintain control. Women get tired of there being barely any decent men to choose from.

That's not happening in human society, we're a supposedly advanced species but men use that intelligence to handicap women, and thus handicap everyone because women birth and raise everyone here

It does not make any rational sense to abuse and handicap the selective more important sex which chooses mates, births and raises everyone here- but men don't care as long as their pee pee gets stroked

Instead we have a patriarchy because men figured they could use violence, money and laws to overpower us and fiddle things in their favour...which means women end up scrambling for loser men and women/ their kids lose.

I don't think we should underestimate the impact poverty, misogyny and mental health issues have on women and their ability to parent or choose a decent partner....not to mention the POOR selection of men and damage done by decades of patriarchy

In my great grandma's generation...women in the 1930's could get locked up in mental health homes for decades for simply having children out of wedlock and refusing to marry cheats/abusers. I only found out about this because of a very little known documentary you can find here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcj-KjKCuNw

How come I wasn't taught that in school? How come males aren't being told about that in school? Men are barely taught anything about womens history...and they don't care to listen when we tell them

Not to mention there was a war going on during the 1930s to 1940s because of mens violent psychotic fragile ego's- which caused a lot of generational trauma...fathers going off to war, women raising kids on rations

My great grandad fought in the war and my great grandma had to raise my gran on local rations, tho she always spoke well of him. But we'll never know the truth bc women were brainwashed and going through trauma then too.

So they were practically being forced into that socially, birth control only came out in the 1960s and was only for married women at first...I think in 1967 it became available to unmarried women in the UK.

So men were absolutely fiddling things in favor of their penis brain once again, at the expense of society. Women needed birth control in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies to asshole men and it greatly reduced the number of kids and women falling into poverty.

Then came the 'free love' movement in the swinging 60s...everybody fucking like rabbits because of newly introduced birth control and the war being over. But men were failing us a long time before that happened.

Without birth control....a lot of us women would of ended up in poverty to mothers with 6 children. We would be stuck. I know it changed a lot of attitudes...but I am thankful I have the freedom to abort some rapists demon spawn.

Not to mention men were trying to oppress us through religious brainwashing about women being submissive womb slaves to men and keeping us out of the workforce and legal systems. Women couldn't own their own bank account in the 1960s.

Wasn't till the mid 70s women could own their own house.

I think in most western countries, women won the right to vote around 1918 - 1920, but it was a lot while longer till they could own a property or separate bank account

So they had it real tough and had a lot of trauma- men were quite literally handicapping womens freedom. Making it difficult for them to survive without them...and their kids felt the brunt of that

My grannies generation didn't get much of a choice...divorce was still taboo because of media/ religion and they wanted women in the home, so many ended up stuck in toxic abusive marriages 'for the kids'.

The kids grew up with poor role models...a lot ending up in poverty seeing their parents fight

Some of them decided to get pregnant young in a bid to have their own family and start fresh....but quickly ended up let down by the father and a single mother or had mental health issues

A lot of women had to work overtime and were sold the 'you can do it all' propaganda- which men took advantage of....which they took as 'I can take my foot off the wheel now'

They had to work hard to gain financial independence, get out of poverty and try and keep the household floating and didn't really have support available from the men they had kids to.

Our generation...the smart ones anyway have seen what their mothers, grandmas and great grandmas went through and decided no....we don't want that. Theres another way.

We want to take full advantage of the freedoms past women didn't have and fought for...and we will ONLY budge if men prove themselves to be decent partners which many don't. Yes this is a tedious process..but the stick needs to get raised and we need to hold it there.

Many women have also woken up to the lie that settling pays off....and the fact many men prey on women to get a maid or have their bills split now. A lot of men just cheat on dating apps, watch porn and are even more lazy/low effort and immature than prev generations but expect us to be full time working pretty house slaves.

But realistically....a lot of damage has been done to women, their families and their kids in the process....and a lot of men are unfit candidates and still try to exploit or control us despite our freedoms. So women would rather build wealth in the mean time...until men decide to get a grip

So men have a lot of catching up to do and have caused a lot of damage in the process by building society on the backs of oppressed women to prioritize their ego and penises at our expense

A lot of women have grown resentful of this and the ways they have oppressed women, ruined families and ruined womens friendships and hopes at love

Now women are more educated and have more freedom to choose they are more aware of how men seek to control them...many men are failing to meet the bar which is not surprising- they've been coddled too long at our expense.

Its going to be a slow long bumpy process of women rebuilding their esteem, mental health and bonds with eachother...and realising their true power again & that its men's job to compete for US. Not the other way round.

herbivorouscarnivore · 2021-11-15T19:17:26+00:00

I feel like this post is conflating purchase power with being a HVM. I know one of the FDS tenets is to have a man splurge on a date, but taking that at face value makes us lose sight of the motivation behind that. An extravagant date usually takes effort. Effort is what a man should put in if he’s really interested in a woman.

Note that I wrote “usually takes effort.”

I dated a wealthy man who, for our first trip, planned an elaborate weekend getaway at a coastal town. He paid for the hotel, and every day he took me to the most expensive steak and seafood restaurants.

I was a vegetarian, and he knew that.

This is not an isolated experience for me. If I really think about it, the majority of wealthy men I dated were actually LVM. They seemed to think they could fix anything by throwing enough money at it, and as a HVW? I recognize that as a character flaw.

This isn’t to say that men with lower income are automatically HV, just that HV behavior isn’t directly proportionate to income.

jkklfdasfhj · 2021-11-15T19:39:52+00:00

That might be a very US specific observation that probably doesn't explain LVM culture worldwide. I'd love to hear what non-US FDSers have to say about this.

Ninja_Flower_Lady · 2021-11-15T20:00:52+00:00

I'm not sure about the economic aspect of it, but I like a lot of the points you made about small town communities checking bad behavior. I feel like the con of smaller communities is change and forward thinking can be slow. But the upside is definitely stronger social ties, higher social trust, and transparency b/c everyone knows everyone. People are genuinely nicer in small towns imo, and there's a greater depth and satisfaction in social relationships of all kinds.

That's my $0.02 from having lived in both San Francisco and the Midwest. I don't think anywhere is perfect, we can just try to take the best lessons from different worlds.

lansburysoda · 2021-11-15T18:01:42+00:00

100%. So many men give up on life because they can’t see themselves succeeding in this economy, and I don’t blame them. Why would they want to get married and start a family in this fractured, disconnected, distracted & sick society where it looks like our children’s futures will be even worse? Personally, if I ever have kids I hope to raise them somewhere in Europe with a strong state-run safety net and strong social ties.

Sonofabiscochito · 2021-11-15T20:45:37+00:00

But the core values of a good HVM in the past and today are also the core values of a good middle class man, are they not?

No. Being middle class is not even close to enough. LVM are prevalent in all classes. In fact, many men with higher income seem to act even more entitled and view women as commodities (see Leonardo DiCaprio, etc).

Obviously the way people are raised can have a huge impact the way they treat others and how successful they are, but income and class is not even close to the determining factor of whether or not a man is high value.

DaughteroftheDawn · 2021-11-16T06:20:34+00:00

I don’t think that there are more LVM today than before. They are just more visible because of social media. A couple of decades ago, they couldn’t go on Twitter and whine about paying for dates or women liking attractive men for the whole world to see.

CountingDownTheDays5 · 2021-11-15T18:34:11+00:00

Yes, in my opinion. Finically footing for men and women is extremely important. However, the wealth is being given to a small amount of people, leaving those who should be middle class with less of a footing. A few LVM manifest from these conditions the bitter, the wealth and entitled, the selfish, the hustler with deplorable means of doing so, the racist with generational money, the colorist with new money, the idiot with no money, and the worker who refused to get his mental health checked.

I think there is a reason white males masses shootings are becoming more common, and violence in urban area via MOC are increasing. The adversity these men were never suppose to face because of the lack "operations" promised is very present. Male fragile egos cannot handle it and so here we are. I think HVM will become rarer and rarer as time progresses.

LadyM2 · 2021-11-15T19:53:02+00:00

Rich families produce assholes too, and there are many of them around. But poor families are definitely screwed. Single parents are typically from low class for sure. And ironically those people vote for Trump.

womaninprogressfor7 · 2021-11-15T21:33:33+00:00

Sad to say it's at every strata. Upper middle class upbringing, here. Hung out with diplomats and officers' kids. Permissive parenting. Laziness and disrespect for women is at every level. "Let the housekeeper do it, that's her job." Entitlement. Habitual dishonesty, to parents, in academics, with girls. Sexual harassment. Criminal mischief.

As far as I know, most people who graduated in my class appear to be doing fine economically. Lots of divorces. Even at some surprisingly young ages. Still entitled jerks.

ferociouslycurious · 2021-11-16T01:00:28+00:00

I don’t think it’s collapse of the middle class. I think we’re just finally recognizing the trash that’s always been there.

reddishfish13 · 2021-11-15T17:57:28+00:00

I would say yes to a point. What constitutes the "middle class" is a sociologically shifting demographic and always will be. But I think that in modern times people with different incomes, backgrounds, genders, races — basically any demographic category — are being radicalized to revert to their bases so that powerful people and institutions can benefit from those unquestioned loyalties.

You might be interested in reading this article from the Brookings Institute about the definition of "middle class": https://www.brookings.edu/research/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

But beyond class, men today are definitely being fed the rhetoric that women are out to get them/that women are no longer traditionally feminine/that men are able to get away with mistreating women. Just knowing porn exists and is viewed by many men should tell you that, not to mention hearing porn mentioned in the mainstream, or knowing the red pill exists — or heck even 45's comments that aired during his presidential campaign should tell you that.

There are very few appeals to decency in modern day propaganda. Most appeals are to the lowest common denominator, which are the fear drive and the sex drive.

Dragon__Bait · 2021-11-15T19:00:05+00:00

From my perspective, I think maybe one of those correlation doesn’t necessarily imply causation things. But maybe influence?

The character and quality of parenting definitely influences the character and quality of a man (and woman). Sure, some incredible people climb themselves out of bad upbringings but not unscathed and without tremendous effort, self reflection, and desire. The majority aren’t going to have that.

Poverty could contribute in two big ways-

Parents struggling to keep their family afloat might work longer/harder/weirder hours and be present less in their children’s daily lives. And they might be exhausted and stress when they are around.
I don’t know how to word this one… Maybe it will be less controversial if I preface by saying I’m poor. I struggle. Many great people and great parents are riding the struggle bus for the reasons you’ve mentioned. It’s shit out there. And not all well off parents are good, obviously.

But, (finally the point lol) it’s worth noting that the majority of mentally ill, addicts, and general shitshow people are poor. They aren’t going to be good parents.

So yeah, typing it out now I think you’re right that it is probably a major player in the rise of worthless men. Good call lol.

But I honestly think a bigger factor is the instant gratification society we live in. Social media, endless porn in their pockets, fast food, fast entertainment, fast dopamine.

It creates lazy, whiny, entitled men that don’t have the self discipline or strength to work for anything. They don’t understand the value of things. Or of women.

My top contender is porn. Fuck porn. It dampens empathy and devalues women. It’s perverted the minds of developing boys and made them view women as a pile of body parts to be used, defiled, humiliated, hurt, and discarded for their pleasure. The only way to compartmentalize that is having a Madonna/whore complex which still degrades our entire gender and puts our worth entirely on our sexuality and pureness.

If a man seeks pleasure from the very things he would be horrified and angry to learn his daughter does, he does not respect or value women. He feels entitled to do things he finds disrespectful and unbecoming of the women he “loves” (owns).

Most men watch porn. Most men watch a shitload of porn. Most men are pornsick porn addicts. Most men think it’s just fine and get defensive and hateful when told otherwise. They believe their right to jerk off to the degradation of women supersedes our right to have feelings about it.

Elena1684 · 2021-11-15T20:18:40+00:00

I’m 55 years old and my huge extended family is filled with LVM both with money and without. In my case I blame living in a male dominated world. All men had to do was provide and the women stayed because they had to. Their daughters grew up as pick mes and their sons LVM themselves.

Society has only magnified the problem. My family grew up in small towns so cheating wasn’t as big of a thing as it is today. Now men can literally find and talk to OW while their wife is in the same room. The internet wasn’t here so no easy access to porn, gaming or other addictions. Busy lives make it easier for them to lie so some schmuck with no game can create an entire secret life. They have more money for alcohol and can travel.

I think LVM men are the same but with more options to be awful. Add in an increased population and they multiply like cockroaches. They teach others how to get away with things “get a burner phone” or here’s a book on how to manipulate women. They breed more LVMs and more pick mes. It’s an epidemic now. I say this because I have teenage daughters regularly receiving dick pics. When did this become okay??

Maybe I’m jaded because I was cheated on and abandoned I don’t know.

loopy13759 · 2021-11-15T21:06:51+00:00

Millennials aren't having kids. Oh the horror!

CroneRaisedMaiden · 2021-11-15T22:54:33+00:00

FDS is the way the more we ignore red flags the less women as a whole gain and that in itself transcends class imo

However, lower class men have solidarity with each other in the games they play and LVM tactics also in my opinion

Joan_of_Spark · 2021-11-16T02:59:25+00:00

I've known plenty of LVM who have money too. They're just better at hiding it (having the resources to constantly buy new stuff when their laziness trashes it, getting to pretend their selfish actions are "spontaneous" and "fun" because they have a cushion of money to back it up). I think being raised with responsibility and care is something that families with more resources can do, which produce better people overall, but being poor is not a moral failing.

WandernWondern · 2021-11-15T18:44:19+00:00

I won’t go into the religious aspect because I think it’s irrelevant but what I will say is what is NOT a chicken and egg mystery is that HVM breed HVM. And that’s regardless of religious beliefs or social standing. And an impoverished, lacking mindset is infectious. I’ll also note being born impoverished does not guarantee an impoverished mindset but it does predispose you to one.

Digital_Coyote · 2021-11-15T18:56:31+00:00

Hmmm.

I think good values are good values: you have them or you don't, irrespective of economic background. I know plenty of low SES people I'd trust with my life and that number gets smaller the higher up the ladder you go. I also know horrible families across the social spectrum that get worse with each generation until someone decides they want different.

I don't know that I'd say the ruins of the middle class is creating more of them. Maybe they're more visible because many of them are still operating with the generational upbringing that tells them they're entitled to the spoils of existing their fathers/various grandfathers got (e.g. bill-paying jobs with minimal education, being able to treat women with impunity because of their lack of options and social consequences for being alone/separated, etc.) but it's out of sync with current socioeconomic realities? Once they get out on their own, their inability to amass some kind of status leaves them utterly unprepared to deal because the older men in their lives literally don't have this problem. They can't be guided by people who don't understand or who are tone-deaf to their concerns. "Just work hard" isn't enough. If they don't actively choose to find a way, they're lost entirely. As their parents lose economic status and mobility or simply refuse to infantilize/enable them, they can't cover for them either. The takeaway is that they can't hide being LVM behind the trappings of forward adult progress anymore. This might make it look like it's a class thing?

Blaming women, social safety nets, Western values, or anything else they can come up with is the path of least resistance. All of those things are more palatable and reaffirming than "the world has moved on, things are different, and we need to change."

Generationally, women may be faring better than their peers because we (as a demographic) are separated from not being able to have our own shit or do for ourselves to the same degree by a few decades. We know out situations are precarious and we've learned from our predecessors' misfortunes. We struggle, too, but it feels like more of us are trying to survive with the intent to do and be better.

seraph9888 · 2021-11-15T21:01:31+00:00

Yes. Absolutely.

In functioning societies with expansive social safety nets, women have the option to leave their lvm partner. That option does not exist for the vast majority of women in America. Their health insurance is tied to their husband; rents are often too high to live with only one wage earner; child care is usually too expensive to justify a woman working, because she is usually paid less; etc.

throwaway-fds · 2021-11-16T20:09:03+00:00

this comes off as very classist. lvm are scattered throughout income classes. my boyfriend and his family lived in poverty and his mom still depends on foodstamps/other government assistance programs and he is very HV. on the other side while my mom was living in poverty, my father is upper middle class and he is a NV drain to society. red pill/LV rhetoric is being picked up lightning fast by middle/upper class men as well. trash is scattered throughout any group of man, and i dont believe our financial situation is contributing to the amount of trash in any group.

povery does push women to certain unfavorable jobs like prostitution/only fans, but i don't see them as LVW, only victims of their situation.

maiqthetrue · 2021-11-15T22:51:47+00:00

I think you're on to something, but I think causality is reversed. Our current economic crisis isn't causing men to lose their values. The values of being HV -- male or female -- are the values of civilization. This is true of all civilization. It's high maintenance, you have to work hard and put forth effort or the thing falls apart. You have to support other people, you have to support things that don't benefit you personally. Those values started dying with the boomers. They got theirs, and grew up expected to do good for society. Then they just stopped. They decided to go low effort, to not teach good values, to not work hard or require their children work hard. And here we are -- wondering why men of our generation are stressed by the prospect of work?

2021-11-15T20:39:55+00:00

I'm an immigrant in US. My experience has been that goal oriented people from low income families work hard to break the cycle of poverty and work towards improving their life. People with extremely wealthy parents are also good at keeping their lives together as they've stronger support system and value their accomplishments along with money. Some of them work harder than me because they're not troubled by childhood trauma and live healthier life.

It's really the people who grew up in middle or upper middle class families that don't want to put in much effort and will settle for a similar lifestyle as their parents. Put in bare minimum efforts and screw around without any purpose to life and still maintain a comfortable lifestyle

No-Release7162 · 2021-11-15T19:08:45+00:00

News just in. Wondering where your next meal is coming from does affect your dating behaviour.

I am shocked! Shocked! Well not that shocked.

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yourfriendly · 2021-11-15T19:40:31+00:00

The thing is LVM can do all the right things but if they don’t have the means to do dates or achieve what you want as much as their HV counterpart, it keeps them LV. If monetary value is important and sought after as it should be if thats what you’re interested in, more is always in, and lower class will always be lower value compared to their counterpart(honestly, a capitalists wet dream). At least in America the erosion of the middle-class is already underway so that disparity between what you have currently and your best potential pick will become more and more stark.

Title	Is the collapse of the middle class producing more LVM?
Author	FDS-MAGICA
Upvotes	735
Comments	123
Date	November 15, 2021 5:28 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/qullr8/is_the_collapse_of_the_middle_class_producing/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/is-the-collapse-of-the-middle-class-producing-more.1083948 https://theredarchive.com/post/1083948

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