Do women expect too much from men?

Dominic_Badguy · 2017-08-08T11:50:21+00:00

Like in terms of what they are looking for in a relationship. I'm not talking about myself, but in terms of men in general....

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Because relationships are complicated. Add in enough time of poor understanding, different priorities and communication on different wavelengths and you get a withdrawn, henpecked husband and a wife who feels emotionally alone and undervalued (and thus doesn't want or give sex.) This is where that RPW advise to STFU comes in. At least about common, every day stuff, anyway. Stopping the cycle of complaining and withdrawal is crucial to maintaining a romantic hetero relationship. Men should do their part, but the advise for women to STFU about non-crucial junk is about owning one's shit.

Typical hetero relationships start out with that limerence high and then often devolve into a nag vs. brick wall dynamic. Both sides growing farther apart due to a lack of understanding or valuing the other's life experience, complete with a healthy dose of resentment. Hard to keep the flame burning for someone who can't or won't put themselves in your shoes, especially if you are also incapable of doing so. Both sexes are guilty of this. Solipsism, it's not just for the ladies.

Anyway, women who end up in the "emotionally alone" category figure they can do well enough on their own (or find a mate who understands them better, you might refer to it as giving them tingles again) since their husbands have already checked out anyway. The especially vindictive ones may try to screw their husbands over in court because they feel betrayed and abandoned, have the upper hand in our system and have no clue how they contributed to driving their partner into withdrawal. People in general are utter shit at introspection and correction of their own faults.

I figure the husbands stick around more often because they A) Are comfortable with "good enough" B) don't want to risk divorce rape/child custody nightmares C) are attached to the status that comes with having an intact family D) Have no clue that their wives feel miserable and alone or only pay attention to the shrew attitude and DGAF about how they contribute to it.

My advise for combatting this particular issue is to view your woman's need for emotional acknowledgement and non-sexual intimacy like your need for sex, and to find a woman that can do the same for you. This obviously won't work for everyone, but I think it would help a large swath of people in modern, western relationships. A more RP way to think about it would be to pass comfort tests, I guess.

InB4: But lesbians, though. I'm fully aware of the rates at which lesbians break up and abuse each other. I'm speaking strictly about hetero relationships here.

I did not mean to rant that much. My bad.

TLDR: Men and women often have different needs and are awful at seeing the other side's perspective. Women have higher SMV/RMV, so they have an easier time moving on when their spouses no longer fulfill their needs. Also, resentment murders love.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You act like relationships end because guys emotionally check out of them. You forget that women lose interest in and dead bedroom guys who are eager to please them and try to meet their needs. Men can't win no matter what they do with most women, because female attraction is weaker and less stable than male attraction.

"Checking out" and "brick wall" are just the easiest strategies. If both strategies don't win, it only makes sense to pick the lower effort one, right? Women don't reward effort, which most men know from firsthand experience. You can't blame men for not doing enough when women set up a no-win situation because they're spoiled and unhappy no matter what.

You dismiss lesbians, but they have the same weak attraction mechanism and propensity to be unhappy as straight women. Two people setting up a no-win situation for each other leads to the relationship being more likely to fail. I think lesbians and gays are a great case for occam's razor of figuring out how men's and women's attraction works.

Men are much more willing to put themselves in women's shoes, as evidenced by a much higher number of male feminists and SJWs that female RPWs or MRA's.

My advise for combatting this particular issue is to view your woman's need for emotional acknowledgement and non-sexual intimacy like your need for sex, and to find a woman that can do the same for you. This obviously won't work for everyone, but I think it would help a large swath of people in modern, western relationships. A more RP way to think about it would be to pass comfort tests, I guess.

No, it won't help, because most women are spoiled and don't reward effort by men.

TLDR: Women are much less willing to see the other side than men due to a combination of biology and being spoiled by society, and even when they do see the other side, if they can't help but not be attracted to the guy, all it leads to is a break-up or starfish duty sex.

[–]quotient_is 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Occam's razor is useful, but we can easily discount legitimate complexity by relying too heavily on it. It's easy to always point to the simplest explanations, whether they're correct or not. The razor makes for a good starting point, but using it as an end all be all discourages critical thinking.

“The aim of science is to seek the simplest explanation of complex facts. We are apt to fall into the error of thinking that the facts are simple because simplicity is the goal of our quest. The guiding motto in the life of every natural philosopher should be “Seek simplicity and distrust it.” – Alfred North Whitehead

http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/05/14/why-the-simplest-theory-is-alm/

You don't seem interested in entertaining any complex answers to the issues that lesbians face, so I didn't care to discuss them with you. I agree that women are less likely to settle and that translates to relationships they have with one another. I do not agree that this makes women the boogeymen you paint them as. One could posit that gay couples are (only slightly) more likely to stay together because men are more likely to settle. Men, too, have their faults. RP focuses on how to navigate female faults as a sexual strategy, but it's silly (if normal human behavior) to ignore in-group faults when forming a world view.

I'm curious, do you ever talk to men who are happy in their relationships? They are out there, but you're less likely to find them in RP spaces because they don't need the advice. In the same way, women who are not SJW man haters exist, but you're less likely to find them in corners of the internet dedicated to that line of thought.

I am aware that checking out and stone walling are the easiest methods of dealing with a domineering, bitchy partner. Many women don't understand how they come off to their partners, so they view withdrawal as abandonment. Many men also don't understand (or care about) the female experience. Thus they view a woman's worry and frustration as a personal attack or not worth attention. Neither side is likely to analyze how they perpetuate this cycle because, again, humans are shit at introspection. The loss of interest that women experience and the male "checking out" is often fueled by this disconnect. And, regardless of what some biased echo chamber tells you, both sexes have issues with this.

Ultimately, one solid strategy for creating a successful relationship is to decide that your partner's life experience is valid, whether you agree with it it not. Male or female, provided your partner is not an abusive shit to begin with. Again, find a woman who understands that your need for sex is equivalent to her need for intimacy. Or find a high sex drive woman, but good luck finding one with a low n-count.

In short, Occam's razor is only so useful, empathy and introspection are hard, and people who clamor to these parts of the internet (on either side) love to throw blame.Own your own shit and empathize.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm curious, do you ever talk to men who are happy in their relationships? They are out there, but you're less likely to find them in RP spaces because they don't need the advice. In the same way, women who are not SJW man haters exist, but you're less likely to find them in corners of the internet dedicated to that line of thought.

I congratulated them on their relationships, then when the woman inevitably turned on them, I consoled them, simple as that.

am aware that checking out and stone walling are the easiest methods of dealing with a domineering, bitchy partner. Many women don't understand how they come off to their partners, so they view withdrawal as abandonment. Many men also don't understand (or care about) the female experience. Thus they view a woman's worry and frustration as a personal attack or not worth attention. Neither side is likely to analyze how they perpetuate this cycle because, again, humans are shit at introspection. The loss of interest that women experience and the male "checking out" is often fueled by this disconnect. And, regardless of what some biased echo chamber tells you, both sexes have issues with this.

How are men who were eager to please and got burned by the woman being unhappy anyway and losing attraction anyway who then picked checking out as an alternative strategy not understanding or caring about the female experience and how are they perpetuating the cycle? They already tried the other thing and it didn't work. The women often lost the interest before the man checking out.

[–]quotient_is 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The lack of understanding isn't intentional and both partners often come into relationships with low empathy and introspective ability. This is perpetuated in part by the modern insistence that gender differences don't exist, which is itself a reaction to the insistence that masculine traits are morally superior and strict adherence to gender roles is necessary. Both partners view the other's reactions and beliefs to be unreasonable because they expect them to react/believe the same way they do. Again, solipsism (and insecurity) is for everyone.

I. E. Women are irrational/selfish because they don't act exactly like men and men are uncaring assholes because they don't act exactly like women. Amazingly, it's possible to understand sex differences without falling into a superiority/inferiority complex.

Both partners feed the cycle because, once the honeymoon phase dies, they often create a pattern of reaction to each other's negativity or indifference that just heaps on more negativity or indifference. Choosing to react to one's partner in a manner that's understanding of their world view requires more effort than most people are willing to muster. Thus, women often physically leave because they feel emotionally abandoned and have more options, and men often emotionally leave because they would rather disengage than fail and they have fewer options.

Men and women can often communicate right past each other when they try to talk things out. I recommend the book How to Fix Your Marriage Without Talking About It pretty highly for that reason. It gave me decent insight into my husband's world view without having to pester him to open up, even if some of the self help junk was gross.

Anyway, I do agree that our current system is stacked against men. I just don't think raging against women is the best way to correct it.

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Dating is not a direct equivalent to the money-market, you know.

The principles of supply & demand control many things, including dating. If most women were fat, and most men were Prince Charming, then those men would have to either lower their standards or live alone. While not all men in that situation would fold, a very significant (majority?) would settle. End result: lots of fat women have mates.

Plenty of people have miserable relationships, and it's not so easy to just get up and leave. There is also the part where it probably greatly affects mens psyche to be constantly told that they're not good enough. It's not just about getting people what they "deserve"

The overall psyche of a man (and men in general) are factored into the supply & demand principles. If a society beat the confidence down of 40% of all men, then they become restricted to lower-value women. And that's how it should be, considering they are now low-value men.

Its up to each man to raise his perceived attractiveness if he doesn't like the results he's getting in the dating market. If he succeeds by building muscle, improving his career, and raising his self-confidence, he will attain high-value women... just as he deserves.

In other words: stop whining. Either fix your problems, or suffer.

[–]ApexHunters 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

True, but you're simplifying and ignoring a lot of things. If so many women were fat and men were Princes, then yes a lot of fat women would have mates. And the men would cheat, or be generally miserable, leading to single mothers, crime and so on.

I can't say i agree with you about "artificially" breaking down men and then saying that they deserve to be there. Not because you're "wrong" technically, but because it's not how it should be. Women (and men) shouldn't have free reign to just psychologically abuse the other gender en-masse until they submit to accepting less than they're worth, just because they've been told their whole lives they aren't good enough.

Especially with the clear double standard where women are told their whole lives how great they are and how much they deserve, while many men spend their whole lives being pushed down and told to shut up.

And to clarify, i'm not speaking from my own problems here because those women don't bother me personally. I'm quite successful with women, and from a purely selfish perspective it benefits me when other men are trash. But it's bad for society as a whole to have men and women treat eachother with such disdain.

[–]effyouasshole 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And the men would cheat, or be generally miserable, leading to single mothers, crime and so on.

Ok. And? This doesn't say anything about how supply & demand affects who gets what.

I can't say i agree with you about "artificially" breaking down men and then saying that they deserve to be there.

Nothing is artificial. Value entirely comes down to perception, which can change over time. If a whole bunch of men perceive themselves as low value, and start acting accordingly, then... it is what it is. Now there's a big chunk of men who are low value, and they will get matched with low value women (or stay single). The mid- and high-value men now have more mid- and high-value female mates.

This is not a problem.

it's not how it should be

Your opinion doesn't matter, and neither does mine. I think people were really overpaying for those bushels of apples at the farmer's market last week. So what? That doesn't change the supply of apples, nor the demand that people had. I think all those buyers are chumps, but my opinion doesn't change the market.

I could maybe convince ALL the buyers to negotiate better. Not only does this take a lot of work, but it'll crumble as soon as a couple decide to not play along and undercut the rest of the group... because they're really desperate for those apples. So yeah... good luck with that.

Women (and men) shouldn't have free reign to just psychologically abuse the other gender en-masse until they submit to accepting less than they're worth

First of all, worth comes down entirely to perception. If men think they're worth shit, they will act accordingly and settle for less. Those who do this deserve what they get.

Secondly, women aren't colluding to beat men down. They compete fiercely for high-value men. They ignore shitty guys, though. This isn't proof of any global conspiracy; women are simply acting according to their own best interests, like all humans do.

Especially with the clear double standard where women are told their whole lives how great they are and how much they deserve, while many men spend their whole lives being pushed down and told to shut up.

Well boo-fucking-hoo. The guys who can't cut it are low-value men, who deserve low-value women (or nobody). The high-value men, on the other hand, aren't sitting around whining; they're drowning in pussy... just like they should.

Supply and demand.

But it's bad for society as a whole to have men and women treat eachother with such disdain.

No other type of society has ever existed, anywhere, from the beginning of recorded history to the present. Full stop.

Even in cultures where marriages are/were arranged, the parents were STILL controlled by market forces. "We're a poor family, so we'll be lucky to get little Johnny any bride we can!" "We're a rich family, so we won't settle for anything less than a bride whose beauty is in the top 0.01% and comes from an upstanding family."

Before the word "feminism" even existed, and before women had the right to vote in the US, both men and women STILL sought out the best possible mates they could, given their perceived value in society.

Your claim that this is "bad" makes no sense, as we have nothing else to compare against.

[–]GroovyEFS 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DemonConsulting 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (137 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't make much sense - a man doesn't expect too much from a woman for wanting her to have boobs and a vagina despite not having those himself. Men and women are inherently different and desire different things in eachother- a masculine woman, tall, muscular, assertive overly confident, certainly isn't the ideal for most men (the rest might want to check if they're really interested in women at all).

It's more of an issue of balance - a woman who seeks a masculine man should provide an equal amount of feminine qualities from her side. Really, the women who "offer" all the great joys of being career-driven, assertive, confident, built like men and behaving like men are exactly the ones who get a very rude awakening when men turn out to not care about those qualities at all. That's how you get 30+ year old singles thinking they "deserve" a man of similar masculine quality as them, when really most men are not looking to date other men (and even then other men are inherently better at being men than a woman trying to compete)

[–]ta1901Man 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KrispyMcSockington 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. You touched on a good point here. Guys generally don't expect a lot from women. They tend to prefer curves overall (individuals may prefer thicker or thinner women), that she enjoys fucking him and doesn't become a bitch or a landwhale.

It isn't all that hard to be nice to someone you are in a relationship with, nor is it difficult to enjoy sex with them. It is also not all that hard to not get so fat he needs to roll you in flour then aim for the wet spot for sex to happen. By comparison she prefers he be tall, ambitious, confident, social, good in bed (I wonder how many women put in all the hard work and still don't always get him to climax). You get bonus points if you are a white billionaire surgeon, pirate, werewolf, vampire who just cannot resist putting average, plain women through your dirty sex dungeon.

Don't believe me?

Well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPnxmw4xNA

Considering guys just want a real live woman's attention, then yes, by comparison, women do indeed expect a bit much from men. An average man has a greater chance of dating a model than an average woman snagging a billionaire.

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How exactly do you think that men would be able to alter female attraction mechanisms?

If men didnt inflate women's egos from teenage into adulthood, and didnt worship women for just existing, women wouldnt think they're better than they are. Therefore, they wouldnt THINK they're attracted to people who have higher SMV.

but you can't negotiate attraction

I hear this argument all the time. Read above.

Women are not going to stop being attracted to top men just because the average man doesn't like it or becomes aware of it or tries to stop it.

That's right, they wont. That's because women generally lack self awareness and a sense of justice. If MEN didnt have these features, women wouldnt have equal rights.

when a woman settles for someone she isn't attracted to, it leads to DB situations, starfish sex or resentment.

Only because she thinks she's better than that man. As the saying goes, "Women only want Chad".

[–] rainisthelife Facepalm 😑 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's because women generally lack self awareness and a sense of justice. If MEN didnt have these features, women wouldnt have equal rights.

Feminism is pretty recent though, compared to the long centuries of human existence when women did not have equal rights. If men truly had this 'self awareness' and 'sense of justice', women would have had equal rights a LONG time ago. Women only got it when they decided that enough is enough and wanted to fight for it. Your elevation of the integrity of men compared to that of women, is pretty telling though.

Only because she thinks she's better than that man

So? Perhaps she IS better than him. At least SMV-wise. People marry people that are above or below them in SMV all the time. Do you think every woman you encounter is on your SMV level? I bet there are women (probably ugly ones) that you deem as below you and you think you're better than. But you seem to have a problem with a woman thinking she's better than a man. That's fine, you can have a problem with it, it doesn't really matter, because these women aren't going to think differently anyway.

Listen, the female attraction mechanism occurs regardless of how society raises women. The instinct is innate and women are not going to stop being attracted to top tier men just because society tries to convince them otherwise. Its amusing that you think that this can ever happen. I'm curious, do you also think that society can beat the polygamous instincts out of men with 'conditioning' too? I'm going to guess that you don't, because you inherently perceive the male sexual imperative as 'good' and the female one as 'bad'. Lol.

Regardless of culture and society, women are always going to have hypergamous instincts and inclinations, and men will always have polygamous ones. The most important factor is whether or not they actually act on them.

[–] DebatesNotBans 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Your elevation of the integrity of men compared to that of women, is pretty telling though.

It's not men who constantly manipulate the ones around them for fun and\or personal gain.

So? Perhaps she IS better than him. At least SMV-wise.

Likely not. Due to hypergamy, women severely overvalue their SMV, which leads to them thinking they're better than they really are.

But you seem to have a problem with a woman thinking she's better than a man.

I only do if she ISNT really better. A 7\10 woman is better than a 5\10 man.

A 5\10 woman who THINKS she's a 7\10 is NOT better than a 6\10 man.

Its amusing that you think that this can ever happen.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible.

I'm curious, do you also think that society can beat the polygamous instincts out of men with 'conditioning' too?

THERE'S NO NEED FOR CONDITIONING. MOST MEN PREFER MONOGAMY INSTEAD OF POLYGAMY.

If you had ANY idea of what you're talking about, you'd know that it's WOMEN who are polygamous, but only for the "top tier" man. They'd prefer sharing the top tier man. (ie a harem)

because you inherently perceive the male sexual imperative as 'good' and the female one as 'bad'. Lol.

Tumblr pls go away.

women are always going to have hypergamous instincts and inclinations, and men will always have polygamous ones.

Most men prefer monogamy over polygamy.

The most important factor is whether or not they actually act on them.

(Almost) all women are hypergamous. The GREAT MAJORITY of men are NOT in a polygamous relationship.

Does that answer your "actually act on them" thought?

[–] rainisthelife Facepalm 😑 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Most men do not prefer monogamy over polygamy. Most of them are in monogamous relationships because that's all they can get. If you offered a man two (or more) attractive women to be in relationships with, with no consequences and both of the women were willing to do it, he would certainly take that up over being in a monogamous relationship. If his long time girlfriend or wife was okay with him getting a little on the side, once in a while with no consequences, most men will take this up in a heart beat. Most other men will admire him and praise him for being able to act on his polygamous desires, they certainly won't reprimand him for it.

This is the same as women being hypergamous. They try to get the best that they can. If a 5/10 woman, despite being 5/10, can still get a 7/10 man, why should she pass that up? If all that were available to her were 5/10 men or below, then that's all she can get, but if she can get a higher SMV man with no consequences, then why should she pass that up to appease lower SMV men? In fact, if he was in the same situation, he would probably do the same thing.

Again, just because most men are not in a polygamous relationship doesn't mean that if it was offered to them without consequences, they wouldn't take it up in a heartbeat. The instinct for hypergamy in women, like the instinct for polygamy in men never goes away and is always going to be a preference. Most people just usually end up taking whatever they can get.

[–] DebatesNotBans 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Most of them are in monogamous relationships because that's all they can get. If you offered a man two (or more) attractive women to be in relationships with, with no consequences and both of the women were willing to do it, he would certainly take that up over being in a monogamous relationship.

That's not true. Most men have a very romanticized view of dating. They'd much prefer to dedicate their time to being close to their SO.

Typically, a man who can so easily attract multiple women that he's polygamous, is a "top-tier" man. Women tend to focus on these men and ignore every other kind of man, so no wonder that's what "most" men seem like.

They try to get the best that they can. If a 5/10 woman, despite being 5/10, can still get a 7/10 man, why should she pass that up?

It's NOT that she "should or shouldnt pass that up", it's that it's unfair and\or unbalanced that a X\10 woman only accepts a X+2\10 man.

then why should she pass that up to appease lower SMV men?

Low SMV women only have it easy due to hypergamy.

In fact, if he was in the same situation, he would probably do the same thing.

Women are (almost) never attracted to men beneath them.

Most people just usually end up taking whatever they can get.

That's the thing. EVEN if we accept that "men are polygamous, women are hypergamous", WOMEN ARE RIGHT NOW BENEFITING FROM HYPERGAMY. MEN ARE NOT BENEFITING FROM POLYGAMY!

[–] rainisthelife Facepalm 😑 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That's not true. Most men have a very romanticized view of dating. They'd much prefer to dedicate their time to being close to their SO

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/6ozrc6/good_enough/ https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/6twebq/tips_for_gaming_other_women_when_youre_married/

I just got these 2 prime examples which were referenced on another thread on PPD. They clearly contradict your assertions. Even from the comment sections, even the ones that aren't 'top tier' men would still prefer to have their wives/gfs while fucking other women on the side.

WOMEN ARE RIGHT NOW BENEFITING FROM HYPERGAMY. MEN ARE NOT BENEFITING FROM POLYGAMY!

I think its disingenuous to claim that that's the only thing that women will accept. If she cannot get an X+2 man, then she usually will settle with someone lower. In fact, so will you. If you had the chance to choose between an HB6 or an HB8, with both of them having similar personalities and moral values, you'll always go for the latter. No one blames you for that. It's 'unfair' to the HB6, but are you going to change your mind because she feels bad?

WOMEN ARE RIGHT NOW BENEFITING FROM HYPERGAMY. MEN ARE NOT BENEFITING FROM POLYGAMY!

You do know that if the situation was reversed and men were benefitting from polygamy, like in some other regions of the world, we would not even be having this discussion right now. The world has never been fair to both sexes at the same time. The male sexual strategy and the female sexual strategy are almost antagonistic and in different periods of time or in different regions of the world, one gender might be favored over the other. Honestly, how do you think things would have been for you if you were an above average man that was able to get multiple girls easily? Would you have been willing to sacrifice your desires and date/commit to a less attractive woman, when you could easily get a more attractive one or get multiple at the same time? I'm guessing not.

[–] DebatesNotBans 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I just got these 2 prime examples

Most men are not part of TRP. Are you daft?

If she cannot get an X+2 man, then she usually will settle with someone lower.

YES BUT NOT BECAUSE SHE LIKES HIM. SHE WILL DO THAT BECAUSE SHE HAS TO. THEN SHE'LL COMPLAIN SHE ISNT ATTRACTED TO HIM.

In fact, so will you. If you had the chance to choose between an HB6 or an HB8, with both of them having similar personalities and moral values, you'll always go for the latter.

Joke's on you smartass. I actually LIKE dorky weird looking girls.

See, that's the thing. Guys actually have DIFFERENT preferences in women.

but are you going to change your mind because she feels bad?

I'm personally more likely to date the HB6 than the 8. Another guy might prefer the 8. Women pretty much ALWAYS prefer the 8 if they can get him.

if the situation was reversed and men were benefitting from polygamy, like in some other regions of the world, we would not even be having this discussion right now.

We WOULD though, because it would be even worse. A few men would be with most women. You'd have a SHITLOAD of men without a woman.

Now, if you REALLY wanna reverse things, if women WERENT hypergamous, THEN we wouldnt be having this conversation. Because everyone would pretty much be with their equal.

Honestly, how do you think things would have been for you if you were an above average man that was able to get multiple girls easily? Would you have been willing to sacrifice your desires and date/commit to a less attractive woman, when you could easily get a more attractive one or get multiple at the same time? I'm guessing not.

Again, that's the thing. Attraction for men is VERY varied. Even if I were a 10\10 man, what if I still liked obese landwhale immobile 1\10 women? Good fucking luck finding a 10\10 woman who actually likes a 5\10 man though.

[–] rainisthelife Facepalm 😑 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most men are not part of TRP. Are you daft?

Nope. I'm not daft. Although the fact that you had to resort to such an unnecessary insult within a pretty benign debate is very telling. Also, just because most men aren't on trp is irrelevant to the fact that the polygamous instinct is present or preferable to monogamy in most men. Even the super BP men have this, they just have it in a lesser degree.

I'm personally more likely to date the HB6 than the 8. Another guy might prefer the 8. Women pretty much ALWAYS prefer the 8 if they can get him.

The key word there is 'personally'. Your personal preferences is not indicative of preference and the behaviors of the general male population. If you think most of your fellow other males would not take the HB8 over the HB6, then you're either delusional, or you just like to argue for no reason.

We WOULD though, because it would be even worse. A few men would be with most women. You'd have a SHITLOAD of men without a woman.

You did not read what I said. I said that in regions where men are benefitting from polygamy. Obviously this would be places where there are more women than men and a man can exercise his polygamous instincts. The men is such a community would not be complaining. Each gender will always try to maximize what they can get, given their environment.

[–]SJDubz1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–] rainisthelife Facepalm 😑 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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Is women being so high value the reason why lesbians have the highest rate of dead bedrooms, and gay relationships have the lowest?

I'm genuinely astounded by the minuscule of sense that you used in generating this statement. No joke. What the hell do gay/lesbian relationships have to do with heterosexual relationships? I was talking about the fact that men are not likely to get bored with their partners as most of these men are not high value, and not only did you bring up something completely irrelevant, your counter point actually further proves mine! The very fact that gay relationships are less likely to experience DB compared to lesbian ones means that, men (gay or straight) are less likely to lose sexual interest in their partner over time, and will not "get bored of the woman". In fact, the woman is more likely to get sexually bored of him. Again, if you had actually taken one tiny second to read through my statements and the previous conversation before puting your mouth in, you would have realized this. It's not rocket science.

If you're gonna try to imagine a reason for men being lower value than women, at least try to make it believable instead of embarrassing yourself.

LOL! Wow, you must have been really butthurt by my previous comment to you in that other post, that you not only internalized it, but in your pain and silly desire to seek revenge, you went ahead to seek out some of my other posts. And to cap it all off, you can't even come up with your own words/phrases, and so you decided to copy mine. I'm incredibly flattered. Thank you!

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-_- Back to this again. I've mentioned multiple times that women prefer skinny and ottermode too and some prefer builtfat or bearmode over low bf% bulging muscles (In fact, bodybuilder, which is the extreme of low bf% and bulging muscles, is way too far for most women too). All the ones I mentioned are not 'bulging mulscles', since some don't have that much muscle and others have muscle hidden under some fat. Yes it requires some work but it can be not that much depending on what you already do for work, if you play sports or not, and which bodytype of the ones I've mentioned you aim for.

Yes, men prefer soft curvy women, which might actually be worse because some women are just unfortunately genetically not predispositioned towards curves. Larger rib cage with a higher and narrow pelvis = no curves on the bottom. Smaller boobs = no curves on top, regardless of diet or exercise.

My general point isn't that women have it worse though, it's that it's different barriers of entry for different things (men might need to exercise more(but could be mitigated by genetics/job/hobbies), women end up spending money on things to augment their curves or their face(which is also mitigated by genetics/job/hobbies)). The bottom tier of acceptable is fairly low for both, and the optimal tier is very hard to reach without good genetics. Most men are attractive enough for a relationship, most women are good enough to fuck. Because of how much women/men either don't want or want casual sex, the bar is higher for casual sex with women and higher for a relationship with men, generally.

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It's not uncommon for a woman to say she wants a man who makes her feel safe. How can you want such a thing from another human being?

Given the simple biology of women being weaker and birthing children, this seems like the least surprising trait of all. Any woman who lacks the instinct to look for a man who can protect the family and won't harm her seems like a good candidate for the darwin-award, at least for the most part of human history.

Though I absolutely agree that being stable, supportive, a functioning adult ect. are traits that a woman should have as well - unfortunately they don't seem to be important enough to keep people from breeding with those who lack them though, including women. They might wish for all that in an ideal man but in the end they still sleep with a hot guy even if he doesn't have his shit together and men still sleep with hot chicks and give them resources, even if their life is a train wreck.

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I don't think comparing male and female SMV works.

A FAT\UGLY\SHORT WOMAN IS NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL AS A BUFF\ATTRACTIVE\TALL MAN. Stop denying this, twisting words around, or trying to change the subject.

.

I'll ask again: Do you deny that a fat, ugly, short woman is NOT on the same SMV level as a buff, handsome, tall man? Seriously, answer this question.

Why would I answer your questions

Because we're in a debating subreddit, and asking\answering each other's questions is how civil debates happen.

I never said a word about "levels" or "quality" of the people involved.

You said that if someone "gets" another person, then they're not asking for too much, which means you're implying that they're not "overstepping their league" (asking too much) because they "got" the other person. I countered this by giving the example of, "even if a 5\10 woman gets a 7\10 man, it doesnt mean she isnt asking for too much."

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I'm genuinely trying to understand your argument.

Here it is: Regardless of who accepts who in a relationship, there are traits, like being fat\short\ugly that are OBJECTIVELY NEGATIVE, and so remove value from a person. There are also traits like being buff\tall\handsome that are OBJECTIVELY POSITIVE that ADD value to a person.

A person with many negative traits expecting a person with many positive traits is unreasonable.

"BUT DEBATES, WHAT IF THE HOT GUY ACCEPTS THE FAT GIRL??????" Doesnt matter. She's still objectively unattractive, and he's still objectively attractive.

What counts as an exception in your view?

It happening very infrequently.

What percentage of women are the maximum allowed to do this and not be behaving immorally in your view?

It's not really a matter of a fixed number percentage when MOST (if not all) women act like this.

And again, what about the men who date down? Are they behaving immorally?

Yes. They are enabling hypergamous behavior in women.

[–] PorgiAmor 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–] DebatesNotBans 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Are you saying that it is immoral and/or unjust if women actually attempt to date higher than themselves on the SMV scale?

It's unreasonable that they EXCLUSIVELY only want guys above them.

Or if they are mostly attracted to men higher than them on the SMV scale?

If they're EXCLUSIVELY attracted to men higher than them.

Like, let's take a hypothetical fat woman who has the opportunity to get into a relationship with a more attractive man. In your view, is it immoral for her to accept that relationship offer?

Again, for the hundredth time. This would be fine if there wasnt Hypergamy. Since it exists, in your hypothetical situation, if the "fat woman" gets with the "more attractive man", who would a hypothetical equally "fat man" get with? A literal landwhale woman?

The problem with this (Hypergamy) is that it isn't balanced.

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I suppose I'm not sure what the point is of trying to create a theoretical concept of league or level that's separate from the practical concept of league/level that means who you can actually get.

By their physical characteristics. Again, a fat, short, ugly, poor woman is low tier. A buff, tall, handsome, rich man is high tier. You can VERY easily determine people's general "level".

You're taking into account weight, height*, looks, and money but maybe you also have to take into account gender as a physical characteristic that affects their value/level/league/desirability. Perhaps simply being a woman is a boost to your value/level/league/desirability (whether due to men's sex drives being higher or some other explanation).

(*I'm not sure why you included height, as being short as a woman is not seen as a negative like it is for men.)

With that in mind, if a 5\10 (or below) woman only accepts a 7\10 (or above) man, she's asking for too much.

What if she can actually get with such a man? It's very strange to say "well you're clearly able to land such a man, but you're asking too much if you won't go for someone less attractive than him".

[–]DebatesNotBans 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what the point is of trying to create a theoretical concept of league or level that's separate from the practical concept of league/level that means who you can actually get.

Because if a fat (NEGATIVE TRAIT) ugly (NEGATIVE TRAIT) short (NEGATIVE TRAIT) woman only demands a buff (POSITIVE TRAIT) handsome (POSITIVE TRAIT) tall (POSITIVE TRAIT) man, that's an unreasonable demand for the woman. REGARDLESS of what she can "get", it's still UNREASONABLE that she's demanding that kind of man in her situation.

but maybe you also have to take into account gender as a physical characteristic that affects their value/level/league/desirability. Perhaps simply being a woman is a boost to your value/level/league/desirability

You hit the nail on the head. THAT'S MY ENTIRE POINT! This thing is called "Hypergamy". It's what enables low-value women to be with high-value men.

I'm not sure why you included height, as being short as a woman is not seen as a negative like it is for men.

I see what you mean, but I meant like REALLY short, like 4-foot-something women.

What if she can actually get with such a man?

IRRELEVANT. If you can sell a bag of rice for 200k dollars, it doesnt mean it's worth 200k dollars. It's worth 99 cents at the dollar store.

but you're asking too much if you won't go for someone less attractive than him

You do realize that being fat, ugly, and short are negative traits, and that being buff, handsome, and tall are positive traits, right?

A woman full of negative traits being with a man full of positive traits does not mean they're a reasonable match.

[–]aznphenix 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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OK, but then what. So a woman who is objectively worse than her SO dates a better man.

Is this immoral and unjust in your view?

What I'm saying is, IT IS UNREASONABLE FOR A LOW-TIER WOMAN TO EXPECT A HIGH-TIER MAN, WHEN SHE IS LOW-TIER HERSELF

And I guess I'm curious about what your proposed solution is to this problem, if you have one?

Appeal to women's sense of justice and self-awareness to make them change their ways.
Make men stop being thirsty fucks who worship any woman they see.

Are you arguing that women are morally obligated to date on their level only? And what about men? Are they immoral if they date down?

This wouldnt be a problem if hypergamy didnt exist. It would just be people randomly dating slightly up or slightly down.

What's REALLY happening is, like I've described, women EXCLUSIVELY want a guy who's better than them, and ignore the guys on their level or below.

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What do you mean no reason to? Lots of people know the genders of other users on the sub. When you use the wrong words or pronouns, we get confused if you're talking about the right person and sometimes we correct you if people care enough. Sometimes it's also because they make weird wrong generalizations about a person. (Claiming male solipsism or being a neckbeard incel to a female user, or saying that they're a histrionic woman to a male user). I personally generally don't care enough to fix anyone that mistakenly calls me a 'he' but other people do and I don't know why it's hard to just comply for small things like that. It's social lubrication. Makes people think you're willing to work with them and debating in good faith rather than trying to pick at anything and everything you say.

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Oh ok so there are lot of assumptions right here. I don't know where you live or what age you have, but my generation has been raised to share chores fairly no matter the pay gap, that is why this configuration didn't come to my mind.

My wife is the one that make the least money, so when we made a child we decided that she would have to take a maternity leave. That would be the only thing.

The problem that raise is often that she is the one with the most stress for ordering and cleanliness (which actually popped up after childbirth, I've heard there would be some instincts about it that would appear, I was not disappointed). So she ends up complaining because I am not keeping the house at her cleanliness standards and she ends up doing more than I do. At the same time she refuses to build a planning with me to set recurrences of chores... this is not exactly easy to manage.

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(Just as a note, you have a strangely accusatory/personal way of writing with "you do this" and "you do that" and I think people will find it off-putting, because how do you know what I do?)

No. You just offer two options: live in filth or clean. And you don't want to clean. So the woman is stuck doing all the work because "my standards aren't high" and "I just don't care!!!"

If your partner wants a puppy but you don't want one, is it reasonable for them to get one and then complain that they're stuck taking care of it?

They're stuck doing the extra work that their partner does not care about being done. If I unilaterally decide to re-organize our record collection and she doesn't see a need for it, can I complain that I'm "stuck doing it on my own"?

Don't be filthy!! Damnit just clean!! Why is it so hard for you to do it? You shouldn't be married if you would rather be in filth than clean up.

You write this as if the woman's cleanliness preferences are automatically the right ones. I don't see why that would be the case.

[–] ggbeauty 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–] dakru Neither 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago * (5 children) | Copy Link

Why would you not wash the dishes for weeks? Why wouldn't you vacuum or do laundry? Don't marry someone (aka get a puppy) and not expect to do work because you don't care.

To use your style of argument: Why would you insist that other people start cleaning up the kitchen before they even get to eat? Why would you insist that a house must be sterile and spotless and consistently be in condition that's ready for a real-estate agent to show potential buyers through the house, rather than a place that people actually live? Don't marry someone and expect that because you're a woman you get to be the domestic dictator.

Could you actually address my two main points?

If your partner wants a puppy but you don't want one, is it reasonable for them to get one and then complain that they're "stuck" taking care of it?
You write this as if the woman's cleanliness preferences are automatically the right ones. I don't see why that would be the case.

[–] ggbeauty 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No, BUT KEEPING A HYGENIC HOME IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM GETTING A PUPPY.
I say "don't leave the dishes in the sink for 2 weeks" and you call this "sterile" and "spotless" and compare doing the dishes on a regular basis to putting a home to be "in a condition that is real estate ready". You compare me saying "do the laundry" and "vacuum" to being a "domestic dictator" This is incredibly stupid and gross. You lack hygiene. If you think expecting your partner to maintain a minimal level of cleanliness is being a "domestic dictator" then you are unhygienic and dirty. Don't complain when you get scabies or some weird sickness. Don't complain that women's standards are too high, when you compare keeping a clean home to buying an unwanted puppy or keeping a house real estate ready.

To use your style of argument: Why would you insist that other people start cleaning up the kitchen before they even get to eat? Why would you insist that a house must be sterile and spotless and consistently be in condition that's ready for a real-estate agent to show potential buyers through the house, rather than a place that people actually live? Don't marry someone and expect that because you're a woman you get to be the domestic dictator

"Men are less picky than women"

Proceeds to go on a huge rant when a woman asks for laundry and vacuuming to be done.

[–] dakru Neither 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I say "don't leave the dishes in the sink for 2 weeks" and you call this "sterile" and "spotless" and compare doing the dishes on a regular basis to putting a home to be "in a condition that is real estate ready". You compare me saying "do the laundry" and "vacuum" to being a "domestic dictator" This is incredibly stupid and gross. You lack hygiene. If you think expecting your partner to maintain a minimal level of cleanliness is being a "domestic dictator" then you are unhygienic and dirty. Don't complain when you get scabies or some weird sickness. Don't complain that women's standards are too high, when you compare keeping a clean home to buying an unwanted puppy or keeping a house real estate ready.

I didn't say that not leaving the dishes in the sink for 2 weeks is sterile and spotless; I responded to your extreme assumptions about what I do with extreme assumptions about what you do. You write in a very personal, accusatory way ("You lack hygiene", "Why would you not wash the dishes for weeks?") towards the people you talk to, assuming all sorts of things about how they live, and it's quite strange.

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Then he shouldn't call her lazy and complain when she says she is overwhelmed and wants to be a housewife or SAHM, or if she wants to go part time.

If I married someone and we both worked M-F 8-5 and he demanded that I do all the housework because he makes more money, I would either go part time, demand a maid, or break down and just not do anything.

One could also argue that without her housework, they would lead a gross lifestyle with cockroaches.

Once again, it's not about money. It's about team work. You work together, not comparing who makes more.

If both partners work 8-5, and the wife cooks for 1 hour and the husband spends time vacuuming and folding laundry while she cooks, and they do the dishes together that's team work. Then they both can each spend an hour or two enjoying each others' company or doing whatever they want.

If he says "ah!!! I just made more money than you!!" And lays down on the couch and cracks open a beer while she cooks then does laundry then vacuums then washes the dishes, then it's not team work. It's not even love.

She is tired and fed up and he whines "why isn't my wife sexually attracted to me anymore!!!"

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That supports my point more than it refutes it.

Yes, marriages are about teamwork and agreements between people about who contributes what to the relationship. Of course if the couple agrees that one parent will stay at home and raise the kids then that is their agreement.

One important point is that whichever spouse makes the higher salary is often the one who will be chosen to continue working (unless of course they just decide the woman should stay home because vagina). So, you can see that in the end the fact that he made more money actually mattered a lot.

So, yes, I think couples really should take into account which spouse brings home more bacon. Couples should never forget which one is contributing more to them being able to live the lifestyle that they do. After all, if the one who is bringing more feels unappreciated and decides to leave, it's going to have a bigger financial effect on the one who gets left with their smaller salary. (putting aside alimony and child support for now since that throws a another helluva fuckwrench into things.)

[–]ggbeauty 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But if they are both working full time, you argue that the housework shouldn't be split. I am arguing that it should if both are working full time.

Obviously someone working part time should do more housework.

If you're working full time and cleaning full time, is your lifestyle really happy?

I would rather live alone in a small apartment and just take care of myself than work full time, cook, clean, raise kids, run errands, etc. while my husband just works and says "lol I make more money!!" In a big house.

After all, if the one who is bringing more feels unappreciated and decides to leave, it's going to have a bigger financial effect on the one who gets left with their smaller salary. (putting aside alimony and child support for now since that throws a another helluva fuckwrench into things.)

Alimony is dead nowdays.
Of course she is going to feel unappreciated if you tell her "boo boo! You don't make enough money! You must work full time and do everything and I refuse to help! Money!!"

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This question doesn't make sense to even ask.

If a 350lb homeless woman with no teeth expected to land Prince Charming, what would happen? She would end up with nothing. The dating market is a roughly a free market.

You can't fault people for wanting something out of their league. The market will ensure that they get someone they deserve. Otherwise, if they're "expecting too much", they crash and burn. Eventually, they will lower their standards until they find someone, or they end up alone. Either way, everything is as it should be.

I see a lot of angry guys complain about women with standards that are "too high". Well, either those standards aren't too high after all (according to the market), or those women are going to be left empty-handed. So what's the point in getting angry about it?

[–] BPremium Meh -1 points 0 points 1 point 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] effyouasshole 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] BPremium Meh -1 points 0 points 1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] effyouasshole 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women dont lower their standards to the point where they'll take their equivalent though.

If they lower it to the point of being able to snag a dude, the market deemed it to be enough. Your opinion, my opinion, and the opinion of that one random homeless dude in Kentucky doesn't matter. Supply & demand matters.

Or only do so temporarily and end up divorcing the guy and taking half his shit. Women are never satisfied.

They still get what they deserve. Either loneliness because they thought they could get more but the market says no to an older woman with a child, or the market says yes and they get a better guy. Or she has to settle for a guy worse than her ex-husband. She deserves whatever happens to her, as dictated by the market.

See, now thats nonsense. If that were the case fat chicks couldn't get thinner better looking men. But they do. Because men are thirsty and women exploit our biology to get more than they deserve.

Oh well, dude. That's the market. There's a lot of thirsty dudes willing to settle for overweight women. For being desperate and unattractive, and thus unable to get someone better, those men get what they deserve. For men who have high status, they're going to continue to bang high-value women.

That said, you can either understand how supply & demand and the free market work, and exploit it to your advantage (read: raise your perceived value as a mate), or continue whining about the world and change nothing.

I can show up to a farmer's market, see waves of buyers spending what I think is too much for bushels of apples, and throw a tantrum. But what does that accomplish? Those sellers are happily raking in the cash without my business. Either I want those apples enough to get in line, or I don't.

The ONLY way the price of those apples is going to come down is by 1.) restricting supply, or 2.) restricting buyers. Back to the fat chick/desperate dude scenario...our society would need to ramp up its fat-shaming massively. Individuals can indeed change the course of society, but it requires a LOT of political power, or a LOT of time and hard work.

Its much easier to start pumping iron, and working on your career to make yourself much more attractive, no?

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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Don't you see the facts underneath OP words?

Whatever, it is your POW , you standard blindness. You problem (and you life).

Human selfishness & solipsism can be so severe that is "wrong & evil" for anyone. This is a fact.

There are too may human being, this days, heavy selfish & solipsist. That is another fact.

Can't you see it coming?

I don't care but only because I chose to ignore your blindness about selfishness : you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot force him to drink. And I only point to the water, as you are ( or you should be) more intelligent than any horse.

Personally I don't concede the usual "nobody is guilty before some evidence is reviled" to selfishness because there are simply to many pathological human being around. And the most part of them are female.

I treat selfish people as the junkies they are : I don't trust them at all, I don't believe to what they say ( I don't ever listen to them) and they are guilty until they show that they are not dangerous in their actions, every single time. That is the only sound way to treat drug addicts.

Obviously you ( and everybody else) treat them as you wish and you get the results you deserve. You problem, not mine.

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Man here. Mostly no.

As far as money goes, money is tight for most people, so they are expecting too much for the guy to be a model, super fit, and a millionaire.
As far as personality traits go, the man should be responsible, and should actually have a history of showing that. Potential is not enough.
The man should be loyal and should not cheat.
They should make an effort, and get results, improving their communication skills.
They should know how to manage money in a practical way. Filing for bankruptcy is usually a huge red flag.
The man should understand that women are different, and act to meet women's needs, not by trying to read their mind, but through actual communication.

This is what I look for in women too.

I'm not going to argue there are lots of great western women. I was just addressing what people should look for in a SO.

[–]Eastuss0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Do women expect too much from men?

Comments

JustShitlordThings

Title	Do women expect too much from men?
Author	Dominic_Badguy
Upvotes	32
Comments	845
Date	August 8, 2017 11:50 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6scykw/do_women_expect_too_much_from_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-women-expect-too-much-from-men.266551 https://theredarchive.com/post/266551