Experimental Evidence on Gender Differences in Lying Behaviour

[–]YoMamaz_azz 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

In a game is a very limited context, especially if there are no real stakes. Im sure most of the lying that men are talking about here that women do, is in regards to social and sexual dynamics which is likely the sphere they have encountered it most in.

Two things to balance out this statement though:

There may be many untruths spoken by women that are not said with the intent to mislead, but perhaps that they may truly believe, or have a certain bias in believing it, but this thing is not actually objectively true, misplaces importance, or is otherwise highly misleading. This is the basis for, "watch what they say, not what they do". A persons internal perception of what or why they are doing something may not align with what an objective outside observer would see, due to implicit biases etc. (ie "height doesnt matter!" yet they have a history of dating exclusively or nearly exclusively tall men.)
Because of the first point, where will be many men who when then hear an untruth, automatically believe it was an intentional malicious lie, due to being biased by their own personal experiences.

One side note though, to the overarching premise and implicit gotcha of this post, which is probably "lmaoooo men say women lie but they actually lie more (according to a study with a highly contextual experiment):

Just because men lie, doesnt negate the fact that women also lie, and on an individual level, the fact that men lie, does negate the fact that women have lied to me.

[–][deleted] 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]YoMamaz_azz 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I think the main reason men get more wound up about it is because society has far more sympathy for women who are lied to by men, and far less sympathy for men who are lied to by women.

Also because women have greater social ability than men, including machiavellianism, as well as often times more social capital to leverage, they are more able to be underhanded and get away with it, while the man is often left no proof as she was sure to leave enough plausible deniability to cover her tracks and leaves him feeling gaslit.

A woman is also able to be validated by a much larger swath of society when she complains about men lying. Anything critical of women is lambasted these days as mysoginist.

Yes, men and women both lie, but women have more of an ability to lie and tell untruths, and be deceptive (and get away with it), and less of a social repercussion for lying to men.

[–][deleted] 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sleuthoftrades1Purple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link

First thought is that this due to a) the culture of the place the study was done, and b) the nature of the study being conducted in a "game" format. Men are more competitive and I believe that is an important confounding variable.

I found another study: https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4336/12/2/44/htm

We find overall support to the often-found result in the literature that males tell lies more than females. Adding to the literature, we also find that when pre-planning is not possible, then males tell lies more than females in the first opportunity. However, this difference disappears when pre-planning becomes possible. This is because females tell more lies in the immediate stage if they know that there will be further opportunity to tell lies in the future. After the opportunity to tell a lie is repeated, males tell more lies than females only when they had an opportunity to tell a lie earlier but could not plan for it.

So while males lie more, I think in the context of relationships (planned lies) women lie more. And this is both more noticeable and important because lies in relationships are planned. I also think that is more egregious, but that is subjective.

On another note, one of the authors also found business students lied more than medical students. As an incoming medical students, I'm glad someone took the time to research something so glaringly obvious. Anyway, the point to that is that also may be a confounding variable. I bet the populations for men contained like more businessmen and lawyers, while the population for women probably contained homemakers and teachers.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167268120303267

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[–]parahacker -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (29 children) | Copy Link

Complete horse shit. Every time I turn around I run into a new news story like this one. Or this one. Or this one. Or this one.

I could absolutely double this entire comment section's word count with "this one" links all going to a unique story of some dude being lied about and going to prison, committing suicide, losing their career, their scholarship, and these are only the cases where it can be proven there's a lie - which is just as difficult as you might imagine proving the rape happened was, if not even harder.

I have personally watched a man sent upcreek for 15 years based on an accusation with minimal evidence and witnesses and an alibi in his defense. I was a witness. Point blank, no shit there I was, he did. not. rape. her.

He had a shit lawyer, though. One accusation only was required.

And that's what it comes down to. What you're talking about isn't 'men' being given the benefit of the doubt, but very rich men. And very rich women, strangely enough, are given that same benefit. But when it's one against the other, there's still enough money on both sides that evidentiary process and due diligence are taken seriously, and - surprise! - the case is often dismissed with prejudice. Maybe, in some of those cases, because those women were lying.

But, 'men'? Men in general?

Yeah, we often don't get the benefit of the doubt, or innocent until proven guilty.

And women, like all other human beings, will look at a situation where they can take down someone else with minimal blowback if it's proven they're lying, and a not-insignificant-percentage of them will lie. Some baldly, outright. Others almost by accident.

And since it doesn't actually need to be the alleged victim doing the reporting, sometimes people will lie about both the man and the woman - him as the rapist, her as the raped. As happened in the first link.

"Rape is notoriously disbelieved." Yeah, no. It's much too easily believed.

[–]Snacksbreak 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]parahacker -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, no. The stats are that about 8% of accused go to jail.

That should in no sane mind mean that 92% of "rapists" get off scot free. That should, if you had an ounce of human decency in you, tell you that there is a)a massive problem with liars and b)that a few rapists go free.

Lying is easy, profitable, low-risk and for some assholes even amusing to them. Rape is extremely high-risk, difficult to pull off and has fewer possible motivations. And yet you think, out of those 92% of men - it's always men, because women forcing men to have sex is not illegal - you think they're all rapists that benefit from some idea in your head that people believe a man's word over a woman's? Seriously?

I guess that's how you justify the kangaroo courts that cancel the other 92% even when they're found innocent. It doesn't take a jail conviction or even a police report to ruin a man - most of the day-to-day evil shit that happens to men is from complaints that never even see a courtroom. Read through r/SupportForTheAccused to see some of that.

And then there's this.

[–]Snacksbreak 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]parahacker 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

No, you're living in a fantasy land where women are always the victims.

That, or you're deliberately trying to deny reality for the benefit of liars who are perfectly willing to ruin a man's entire life for a laugh, or for petty revenge.

Men are very frequently the victims here. And we are not given the benefit of the doubt, our word is never held higher than a woman's unless we have enough money and leverage to force the system to recognize it, and you are personally an example of just how very fucking broken everything is. That you believe men are somehow getting the better deal in court is a clown-world upside-down view of the fucking horror show for males that reality actually is.

You seem to think I'm pulling some kind of prank on you. No. This is life-and-death serious. Men are dying because of false accusations. So are a few women, for that matter, though mostly in statutory rape cases. In that case it's more of a 'believe all victims' problem.

It's common knowledge that the deck is stacked against men wherever a court is involved. Men receive longer sentences, are sentenced more often, are arrested more often for the same acts, it's bias bias bias all the way down the line. So in what world could you possibly think the bias works for men where it comes to rape accusations? Not this one, that's for damn sure. Rather the opposite.

[–]Snacksbreak 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (23 children) | Copy Link

No, Feminism is the sexism version of the KKK. Accepted for years, promoted by people in power, participant in the creation of systemic bias against an entire class of people - that's not the MRA, that is definitely feminism.

MRA is more like the Black Panthers. Get your analogy straight.

To be clear, I think any group that has a mandate to support only one subgroup will eventually fall to extremism, but there's no getting rid of feminism any time soon so the MRA is going to exist in the backwash of feminism's utterly horrific shitshow.

Youtube clips are of actual news reports or commentators. You want to verify, go ahead but don't hate just because the clips are youtube.

For that matter, many of the links I have aren't MRA or Youtube at all. RADAR has nothing to do with the MRA, for that matter. It's existed since the '90's, outdating most MRA activists you might hear from today, and is based on a paper and a premise stating that to lower domestic violence and other crimes both genders's actions need to be accounted for. Their focus is on DV and intimate partner crimes alone and they have no mandate to support men or women - only to lower violence rates for all.

And you cited RAINN, which while generally a good group has a blind spot with this particular issue. That page you linked to has been debunked to hell and gone, and it still exists, which kills its credibility in my books.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

I lived through it. I watched an innocent man go to jail for a crime he did not commit, and that was when I was 12. Every moment of every day since then has simply been more and more evidence that men are victims, that the deck is stacked against us, and that women are equals in aggression and malevolence but protected far more.

I've driven a boy - an 18 year old boy - to the hospital after he tried to kill himself due to a false rape accusation. I've also known 2 men in my life that were forced into sex by women, but get no credibility - and one the woman even threatened to accuse him of rape if he said anything. He didn't, by the way. The common thread of my entire life is that men get the shit end of the stick, and yet are believed to be the perpetrators.

And this is common. If it were just my experiences alone, I'd be less upset. But like the links I posted above, over and over and over and over and OVER again there's stories of some dude who was lied about and went to jail, or lost everything. And yet there's this pervasive belief that men are somehow 'privileged'. It makes me want to fucking scream.

You are WRONG. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. YOU are the one full of shit. And I am DONE here.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure you had 100% of the information of what happened when you were 12.

18 year olds commit rape, FYI, and get scared of facing jail for things they have done and maybe try and commit suicide. Fear isn't evidence of innocence.

What is COMMON is women getting raped or sexually assaulted, and men getting away with it. Society blaming the victim for being drunk, wearing a dress, wearing lipstick, being out at night, being alone, being around a man alone, etc.

If she's one of the few that actually goes to the authorities, then she most likely gets revictimized and eventually she maybe commits suicide.

The story of Audrie & Daisy is a classic example. The book Missoula by Jon Krakauer is another. "Unbelievable" on Netflix is another. These are all about real stories.

And again, I actually worked with victims, who occasionally were men yes, but most were women, so I'm not just talking about some movies and books here, those are just helpful for you to understand reality.

Be done, or maybe learn something. Good luck.

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Much like, "there's no point in us continuing to talk." I kinda wanted to see if you'd call me out on the done comment, just to gauge the hypocrisy level.

I don't think rape victims or IPV victims deserve more trauma, but you should shadow crisis centers and advocacy groups. Silently. Then come back and say all this hot garbage.

You're the one saying hot garbage. I volunteer with homeless groups and mentally/physically disabled support groups; I don't have time or energy to do what you suggest, but there's plenty of bleedover anyway.

The simple fact is that men get rolled over at every level of support and jurisprudence. Women have more opportunities, more sympathy, and more credibility even when the facts are blatantly against their story.

Am I a lawyer? No. But actual lawyers like Chris Dolan, Marc Angelucci and Marilyn York are saying much the same things I am, but I bet you've never heard their names, have you? Because there's a cultural bias against supporting men.

Due process is biased against men, point blank. But yet it's still better than the devastation that cancel culture and kangaroo Title IX courts (and their Canadian equivalents) leave behind.

It is wrong to just indiscriminately support anyone who claims rape, and I say that as a man who was evicted by a woman for not sleeping with her. As a man who has witnessed 1 rape of a man personally and driven home the victim of another.

Not that those actually count in your book, probably, because the victims were men. But still.

It is wrong. Due process, though flawed, is a hell of a lot better than what people like you who automatically assume men who claim innocence are liars want to have. And yet, due process itself in our courts is biased against men, and that MUST be addressed if you have any real interest in fairness and justice.

And YES, many many women who claim rape are liars that destroy lives for the sheer joy of it, for petty revenge, or to get economic and social benefits. I have seen it in action. Supporting such people by supporting "believe all women" is a moral failure.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

Much like, "there's no point in us continuing to talk." I kinda wanted to see if you'd call me out on the done comment, just to gauge the hypocrisy level.

I never said I was done, there were zero flouncing moments on my end. Plus I am right. There isn't any point in us talking. You're in a misogynist cult. I'm basically your literal enemy, as a free woman.

Not that those actually count in your book, probably, because the victims were men. But still.

Of course they count. I support all rape and violence victims. That includes men, women, nonbinary, cis, trans. Again, the victims are overwhelmingly women, but male victims definitely exist. Usually they are victims of men, but women can and do rape as well, it's just less common.

Due process, though flawed, is a hell of a lot better than what people like you who automatically assume men who claim innocence are liars want to have.

Excuse me if i believe the RAINN stat I posted earlier over the biased word of a man that only believes men and and no actual legitimate study.

And YES, many many women who claim rape are liars that destroy lives for the sheer joy of it, for petty revenge, or to get economic and social benefits.

You are wrong, obviously, but pretending you are right: do you also believe there are just as many men that are liars that destroy lives for the sheer joy of it, etc?

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Plus I am right. There isn't any point in us talking. Then why are you? You're in a misogynist cult. You're in a misandrist society. And buy into it faithfully and with no critical thinking. If objecting to that makes me a cultist, then I'm happy to be one. I'm basically your literal enemy, as a free woman. It's quite common for men to be misandrist as well and sabotage other men for being men, but ok.

I favor you being free. I don't favor you contributing to the oppression of and bias against men. If that's what you do with your freedom, I still support your right to it. I will use my freedom to call you a flaming hypocrite, though. While I still can; it would not surprise me if my ability to do so is eventually taken away. In many places it has been.

This

Of course they count. I support all rape and violence victims. That includes men, women, nonbinary, cis, trans.

Is immediately undermined by this

the victims are overwhelmingly women

The CDC has been reporting equal levels of victimization and near-equal levels of perpetration for the past decade, since it started including 'made to penetrate' questions.

That you still believe victims are mostly women is evidence of your cult membership. Though one that's embraced by and approved of within the controlling elements of society.

Excuse me if i believe the RAINN stat I posted earlier over the biased word of a man that only believes men and and no actual legitimate study.

I linked to a page with several legitimate studies.

Frankly, it's not hard to find credible dissenting voices to that RAINN page. You just haven't bothered trying. Shame on you.

You are wrong, obviously, but pretending you are right: do you also believe there are just as many men that are liars that destroy lives for the sheer joy of it, etc?

Of course - or rather, I believe there would be if men had the same advantage women do.

Would men do it? Men have done it. Look at the plague of 'veterans' in the 70's and 80's that never saw combat, making real veterans look less credible or sympathetic. Some who built their whole lives around that lie. Some who even believed it themselves despite documented evidence to the contrary, falling into their own story. Of course men will.

When a system can be abused, people will abuse it. Humans are human. What incites me to no end is that this fundamental truth is perfectly well understood when it's a man under scrutiny, but not when it's a woman. Not when en masse there is a way to abuse men, and women are doing it, all the while retaining credibility.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is immediately undermined by this

the victims are overwhelmingly women

The CDC has been reporting equal levels of victimization and near-equal levels of perpetration for the past decade, since it started including 'made to penetrate' questions.

That's not my experience. That's not who calls. That's not who needs advocates in the hospital. Like less than 10% of those calls/advocacy requests were for men. And we weren't only staffed by women, if that's what you're thinking, so if they wanted a male advocate that was an option.

I linked to a page with several legitimate studies.

I don't believe you or trust your sources.

When a system can be abused, people will abuse it. Humans are human.

I can agree with you here, I don't think women are inherently better than men in our hearts. I think the systems still favor men though, which is why women aren't perpetrating the crimes you're saying they are. They don't have the systemic power to achieve that.

Brock Turner received a slap on the wrist even though there were witnesses. There's no way men are getting convicted merely on a woman's word.

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not who calls

No shit. Really? Guys don't call the authorities when they're victimized? What a wonder.

Neither of the guys I knew got raped called anyone. I didn't call anyone when I was evicted by a jilted landlord, under circumstances where if I had had sex with her (and been a woman, and been penetrated by a portion of her anatomy) it would have be classed as rape.

Oh, people knew though. First guy got his facebook page covered in broke dick jokes. These were not people who 'didn't believe him', these were people who knew all parties and heard the screams. Mostly women, by the way. Second guy, most of his friends were her friends and they closed ranks around her. She threatened to accuse him, and that was enough for him to beg me to keep quiet as well.

That's not who needs advocates in the hospital

Men are assumed to be the perpetrator whenever there's a question of who did what.

Speak out and find yourself immediately accused of being the actual rapist. Which is the threat that kept the second guy silent. And in my own situation dealing with a woman who used her position to try to force my actions - there was no evidence, at all, there wasn't even any sex. I just packed my stuff and left. Why would I bother calling anyone? Talk is pointless. Actions matter.

And we weren't only staffed by women, if that's what you're thinking, so if they wanted a male advocate that was an option.

To most guys in that situation it wouldn't matter if the person at the other end was a dolphin.

What matters is practicality. What can you do for them that the cops can't? And if the cops get involved, then that guy puts himself at risk. Automatic presumption of guilt. If sex actually happened, even if he was the one forced into it he's at huge risk of the woman claiming he raped her - and her being believed. That goes twice if he's black, but it's still true for every other guy.

Brock Turner

Registered sex offender, ineligible for most jobs, felon who can't vote and has several other rights restricted, has his face and name known to a large angry crowd, that Brock Turner? I don't defend his actions, but calling what he's living through a slap on the wrist is pure entitlement speaking.

Meanwhile the woman involved has a book deal and gets paid tens of thousands of dollars for public speaking engagements.

And good for her. That being said, it seems you question the court's decision. Great. What's not good is that you aren't questioning all the other times things went far, far worse for the convicted. It seems your lack of faith in court decisions is rather selective. You aren't outraged by the man who lost 32 years of his life to a false conviction. You aren't upset by the man in my first link who had video evidence he was not at fault, and still lost his university track. No, you're upset that the guy who's life is effectively over wasn't punished enough.

Smell that? Your shit stinks. No really. It's foul. You are failing as a responsible citizen and human being. You're prejudiced and untrustworthy of any position where people's fates would be your responsibility. I hope you never get offered one, though with the way the world works you probably will.

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Think about it.

I told you about when I, at 12 years old, witnessed a man I knew was innocent go to jail for essentially the rest of his functional adult life.

While not as bad as what happened to him, I have been negatively affected by that event ever since. I trust people less, I don't feel entirely comfortable alone around women, it's negatively affected friendships and relationships I could have had. In small ways, but it's there. Other events later on only added to those issues.

Yet your immediate response was to call bullshit. No hesitation. You've called into question both whether I'm telling the truth and whether, at the age it happened, I was capable of even knowing the truth.

Would you do that to a woman who claimed to have been raped? Would you immediately, without hesitation, call bullshit on her and question her ability to recognize what happened?

Even I wouldn't do that, and I don't trust anyone.

That's the difference here. You've demonstrated in action the fundamental problem - women who claim rape are given credibility, and men who claim anything are not, up to and including their innocence. They have to prove their innocence.

And you think a situation like that isn't being frequently abused? That's both naive and horrifically biased.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

As a woman that has been harassed and assaulted multiple times in my life since I was 10

As a man working in bars and clubs for most of my late 20's, early 30's, and as a musician and performer, I would get groped, harassed, bitten, stalked, catcalled, flashed, and more every week.

As for 'since I was 10'? Girls are fucking savage as kids. Easily the worst behavior, the nastiest comments, and half of it centered on supposed sexual inadequacy came from teenage girls.

Still doesn't mean I take anything anyone claims on faith.

Majority of my female friends have shared disturbing events with me as well.

Uh huh. Sure. And you bought into that with zero pushback, I'm sure. But you were perfectly willing to push back at my experience.

openly part of a misogyny group.

Men's rights advocacy /= misogyny group. Given time, and were bias to stabilize closer to center, sure - it would be misogyny if it continued to exist independently, because at that point it'd be less about redressing wrongs and more about maintaining and expanding power at the expense of women. Much as feminism is today, at the expense of men. It would be a hate group, just as feminism is a hate group.

As it stands now? MRAs can't allow such. They have to bite back twice as hard at real misogyny because a)they're already accused of such by shallow, prejudiced fools like you and b)no one truly involved wants to be like feminists are today. The pain of the actions feminism has undertaken and continues to undertake is too fresh, they stand as too strong an example of what not to be.

You are far deeper into a hate cult than I am. You're embedded and can't even see it for what it is.

[–] Snacksbreak 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

What is this even supposed to mean?

The point was this line:

Still doesn't mean I take anything anyone claims on faith.

Meaning that if I'm hearing about or reading another article about girls yet again setting up a boy with a false rape claim, I don't automatically assume the boy is blameless. He might have started shit. He might have coerced them into pretending they faked it. One of the other girls might have done that to him. The boy and the girls together might have scripted this whole thing up for the drama of it. And on, and on.

It takes a lot of inductive weight for me to take anything as fact. That includes 'the justice system is heavily biased against men,' 'men and women are assaulted and do the assaulting in roughly equal numbers,' and 'everyone lies.' None of those conclusions are things I came to without a hell of a lot of backing to them, and studying the counterarguments as well.

Which means I'm observing this conversation far differently than you might be thinking. When you accuse me of being a blind cultist, I'm observing that a)you dismissed my references without studying them b)never even bothered to look up counterclaims to RAINN's estimated rape statistics on your own c)do not know the names, do not reference the people and sources *behind* those claims yet d) are quick to throw accusations at me.

I can't take you seriously. You're an embarrassment. You can call me trash all you want, but you're the one behaving like a biased, hypocritical, mindless, trashy person.

[–] Snacksbreak 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–] parahacker -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Nazi, huh?

Feminism is far, far closer in tactics, strategy and behavior to the Nazis than anything MRAs have done. Yet. Though I'll repeat, any group that focuses and promotes one demographic over others will eventually become the problem it intended to overcome. MRA groups are a long way from that, though.

Feminism, however, crossed that line a good while ago.

I'm not going to bother defending against the rest of your nonsense accusations. Anyone who reads this conversation will be able to determine how utterly ridiculous your words are. But they won't read it, because the OP was removed.

All you're doing is proving more and more how biased and hateful you are, to essentially an audience of one. Hateful, as in full of unjustified hatred. Take a step back and re-evaluate... pretty much everything you ever believed true, because your worldview is fucked.

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Did any of those things kill you?

DId any of those things destroy your family or your kids?

Did any of those things cause you to lose your house?

Did any of those things cause you to lose your job?

Did any of those things injure you in any way?

Also - goalpost moving - now we're talking about lying about drug addiction or cheating. I thought we were talking about lying about love.

Women lie about fidelity, money, drugs, alcoholism, sexual attraction, how they feel or care about their men or husbands, their pasts, their past sex partners, and their past fuckups.

So what that men lie. When women lie it destroys EVERYTHING. When men lie, all that happens is someone gets some fully consensual sex they might not otherwise have gotten. When women lie, entire families get chewed to bits.

Sure, the 2% or less of men who have EVER committed a rape in their lives lie about rape. Sure. which leaves the more than 98% of men who never raped anyone and who are TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT IT.

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It's a reasonable assumption to make considering the vast disparity. In nearly all cases, the first one to file is the one initiating, and is the one who wants the divorce. Almost no breakups are truly mutual.

You're being intentionally dense on the matter because your kneejerk reaction (which is the kneejerk reaction of society) is to grant women the benefit of the doubt. You can't take a 70-80% figure and be like "Gee well I don't know maybe men and women are equally at fault." No, sorry. That's a surefire way to get zero men to take you seriously in this scenario. Why? Because we all see the deck stacked against men in family law. There's a longstanding institutional bias against men in family court, and women fair far better in divorce than men. Because women are incentivized to divorce, they're more likely to file. At this point it's a simple numbers game. If you incentivize women to leave their husbands, guess what: they're going to leave their husbands more often.

To suggest anything beyond that to exonerate women is to make an unprovable claim. If women were filing for divorce 70-80% of the time to escape abuse, even a significant plurality of the time, that would be data touted by feminists on MSNBC incessantly. At some point, we have to trust our common sense, and take off the rose colored glasses with regard to women. And I don't exonerate men on this. Men need to wake up and realize that modern women, probably at a rate of 70-80%, are simply not marriage material.

[–]NovadinaEgalitarian Woman (Blue) 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It’s a reasonable assumption to make considering the vast disparity. In nearly all cases, the first one to file is the one initiating, and is the one who wants the divorce.

Do you have a source for that? I don’t see why it’s a reasonable assumption at all, women often are the ones who benefit more from a legal divorce, they often get left with the children and need an actual co-parenting plan in place for child support, or if they don’t work they need spousal support, and often men control all the joint finances so women may not even have access to their joint money unless they file for divorce. It seems pretty reasonable to me men might be fine to just move into their mistresses place and not want to file for a legal divorce, which would mean he would have to split the all the marital assets which often men would rather not do.

[–] Liberal_On_Guns 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you have a source for that? I don’t see why it’s a reasonable assumption at all, women often are the ones who benefit more from a legal divorce, they often get left with the children and need an actual co-parenting plan in place for child support, or if they don’t work they need spousal support, and often men control all the joint finances so women may not even have access to their joint money unless they file for divorce.

Notice how the discussion changes. In a normal conversation about relationships and marriage, we're brow-beating by you women about how women are so empowered now, and financially independent, and don't need men. Until it comes to divorce. Women are so independent until the divorce. Suddenly, they have no issues assuming the role of a traditional woman when it's divorce time.

As to why it's reasonable to assume, it's because the disparity is so vast. In order to exonerate women from this statistic, you would have to show that men are abusing and cheating at a significantly higher rate in order to justify the divorce. In essence, you are claiming that there's a chance that women initiate 80% of divorces because men are lying abusive cheaters. Well, if that were the case, the data would reflect that. However, we have data on abuse. Women are far more likely to assault their men than the reverse. in fact, lesbian couples have the highest physical abuse rates. As for physical cheating, the data varies. Some data shows effectively 50/50 percentage, or striking distance of 50/50. Market research data has shown women to be likely to have a "backup boyfriend" in place, and I've listened to a number of psychologists and relationship experts discuss cheating, and they tend to say that women cheat just as much as men, sometimes more. If you talk to divorce attorneys (feel free to ask some on reddit, plenty of legal subs that would field your questions), they will likely agree that the one filing is almost always the one seeking the divorce.

Sometimes, you have to use your objective faculties. Further, you don't want to be one of those people that needs a study to confirm your common sense.

[–] Novadina Egalitarian Woman (Blue) 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I'm suggesting if 70% of divorces were filed by men your stance would be that women are shitty.

Well, that's false, and that's clearly not what you were suggesting. That's just a petty attempt at "clapping back" and avoiding the question. The fact is that I have no problem whatsoever going hard against men, especially when they're being whiny bitches avoiding accountability.

The vast majority of divorces I have known including my own were very mutual. I filed the paperwork but what lead to us not being a viable couple was not enjoying being with each other, mutually.

Doubtful. You were done long before he was, guaranteed.

There does not need to be a bad guy. Sometimes you think you are a match then actually living together proves differently.

This is what you'd expect the bad guy to say, tbh.

[–]ChibsFilipTelforddMen should not date virgins 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FlightlessbirbzPurple Pill Woman 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Liberal_On_Guns 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oookay, but if this statistic were fueled by cheating, you wouldn't see an 80% figure. It would be much closer to 50/50. All of the data we have on physical adultery shows the figure being around, but not exactly, 50/50 among the sexes. Also, there's market research data showing that women have backup boyfriends at a 50% rate (one survey found, at least).

People need to wake up and realize that women don't necessarily need a good justification for divorce. Typically, they're just done. Has nothing to do with cheating or being wronged. They fight all the time for whatever reason, and that's reason enough. The kneejerk reaction to paint women as victims, while in the next breath claiming they're strong and independent and don't need to fill the traditional roles in a marriage, is getting tiresome.

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nothing like a contextless data dump to start the day. Looks like on average men are spending more time in leisure activities and paid work and women are spending more time doing household chores, childcare and church. Men are doing more housework now than ever tho, which is great (tho it's not equal)

It's that unequal share of leisure that seems to bother the women in my groups (and this is of course a minority, most of them only comment praise and adoration towards their partners). The whole "he gets home and plays video games or goes out drinking while I put the kids to bed, make dinner and clean the kitchen" thing. Or when they ask if husband will watch the kids and his version of that is having the kid play on the floor while he ignores them playing video games (not like there's nothing wrong with doing this some of the time! But if that characterizes most of his 1-1 interactions with the baby, it's an issue)

[–]Kaisha001 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]relish5kWorking Tradwife (woman) 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Some mother chose to chop of their hair, stop shaving their body hair, stop wearing makeup and live in sweatpants after baby comes (at least for the first few months anyway!) other women (and their husband) find the time investment that it takes to live up to the societal expectation of female beauty worthwhile.

The women I know who are unhappy in their marriages are upset because the time their husbands spend in childcare is qualitatively poor, they feel like they have manage their husbands household responsibilities rather than him taking ownership, and they spend the 4 hours after baby is asleep cooking and cleaning while husband watches tv and plays video games. They are the exceptions and not the rule, but they are genuinely miserable. If anything it's more of a lack of communication on their end that it's leading to their misery - they want the husband to want to do the dishes and not to be told to, which is stupid. Expectations need to be clearly set on both sides of a relationship to make it work.

Also I can't believe that parents of children under 6 report 9 average hours of sleep a night, that is nuts

[–]Kaisha001 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–] relish5k Working Tradwife (woman) 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

It was a reference to the men who are blindsided by their wives filing for divorce. My hypothesis is that these are the men who regularly relax at home / spend time with their buddies while their wife is cooking, cleaning, providing childcare and not getting a break. The time they spend with their children is not focused on the kid (eg playing video games, basically ignoring the child), and the chores they do around the house are actively managed by the wife. These women share their frustrations on my mom groups and I would bet their husbands will be hella surprised when they file for divorce (also do to the wife's own poor communication skills). Some of these women are SAHMs, some are working part time, and some are working just as many paid-work hours as their husbands. These do not represent that majority of women, who are very happy with sharing the load equitably with their husbands

For those families who do rely more (or solely) on the man's income, I can only imagine who stressful that must be for him. It must be a lot of pressure to know that feeding, clothing, and housing your family is all on your shoulders. It's not more valuable than the work of the parent who is providing care, but it's certainly equally valuable and deserves appreciation. Of course a husband deserves to relax! But he is no more entitled to that relaxation with his wife. (On the unpaid labor thread I asked those who had done both staying at home and working, which was harder? Most of the answers said they were both equally hard, but in different ways.)

In my experience, new fathers through themselves into work because a) they feel an intense pressure to provide for their new family and b) because work is an escape when home is a chaotic mess with crying kids and an overwhelmed wife. The later actually represents my own experience - my husband admitted as much to me. Fortunately he was able to take 6 weeks of paternity leave while I worked which helped him see just how demanding baby-care can be, and how a stay at home parent needs to be supported more than just financially by their spouse. Now we both make sure that things are as even as possible, and only really relax if the other person is able to relax too (which is essentially never!)

[–] Kaisha001 -2 points -1 points 0 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It was a reference to the men who are blindsided by their wives filing for divorce. My hypothesis is that these are the men who regularly relax at home / spend time with their buddies while their wife is cooking, cleaning, providing childcare and not getting a break. The time they spend with their children is not focused on the kid (eg playing video games, basically ignoring the child), and the chores they do around the house are actively managed by the wife. These women share their frustrations on my mom groups and I would bet their husbands will be hella surprised when they file for divorce (also do to the wife's own poor communication skills). Some of these women are SAHMs, some are working part time, and some are working just as many paid-work hours as their husbands.

It's quite an imagination you have. Too bad reality doesn't back up your vicitimhood complex.

The later actually represents my own experience - my husband admitted as much to me.

No doubt, because not only does he have to manage his job, he now has to manage yours as well. Can you imagine taking care of the kids, then running off and doing his job? No of course not... cause women can't empathize.

[–] relish5k Working Tradwife (woman) 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (8 children) | Copy Link

You say imagination, I say "this is what I am literally hearing from women groups I am a part of." Maybe they are all collaborating to invent these stories as a feminist conspiracy, how elaborate. Accusing someone of making up experiences because they don't jive with your beliefs is not very constructive in a debate board.

As soon as it was my husbands turn to be a stay at home parent, it clicked for him exactly how much work it takes, and he apologized for not being more supportive of me during my marriage leave, instead burying himself of work which was familiar, and an area of his life where he could be in control.

When I was working full time and he was at home with the baby I made sure that he got at least an hour to do his own thing everyday when I was done working, because he deserved it. Now that were both working and both understand the labor of caretaking, it's all about balance and making sure we both have an equitable amount of "off time"

Also, this is why I think paid parental leave should be not just offered to all men, but mandatory (along with an automatically given paid may leave , so that it's equal)

[–] Kaisha001 -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You say imagination, I say "this is what I am literally hearing from women groups I am a part of."

I have no doubt you are hearing it. Everyone hears it... non-stop. Women in the west can't stop going on about how oppressed they are and how terrible life is for them. Just look at the women on this forum.

Maybe they are all collaborating to invent these stories as a feminist conspiracy, how elaborate.

There's no maybe about it. They are literally regurgitating facebook meme's as if they were debating talking points. Of all the studies I've collected while on PPD, you know the two I link FAR more than any others? The 'time of use' study, and reciprocal domestic violence study.

Women LOVE to be the victim. They LOVE to pretend they are oppressed. Give them any excuse to complain about anything and you'll get a massive circlejerk.

Women don't have it harder than anyone else, they just bitch about it more than everyone else.

[–] relish5k Working Tradwife (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's not a zero-sum game. Women are can have problems that are specific to them and their situations, there is no need to make it a contest.

When I hear someone say something like

How do I get over constantly being so angry at my husband. 😪 We are constantly fighting about housework. He barely does anything but I can't bring it up anymore otherwise we just end up in another fight, and they're getting nasty. Last night he was supposed to be playing with the baby, but he got distracted by his phone and she fell and hit her head. It really upset her and he couldn't calm her down. I ended up nursing her to sleep. This morning I got up and he has done nothing. None of the baby's bottles were prepared for the day, the trash hadn't been taken out. This is what I wake up to every day. He never helps with the night wake ups either, and we have a bad sleeper, so I'm constantly exhausted.
I feel like I never get any time to myself as I'm constantly doing housework, which infuriates me even more when I see him sitting there gaming.

Is she perfect? Almost certainly not. Is his side represented and does it deserve to be to pass a judgement on him? No and yes. But when I see something like this I think to myself "oooh that's how a man ends up blindsided with a divorce." Especially when a man finds time for leisure in front of a wife who feels like she can't take a break. Clearly this couple needs counseling and better communication, I hope they can fix it.

But it's not a fucking meme it's an exhausted overworked and unsupported new mom, and a broken home if they can't find a way to fix it (which is on both of them, not just her"

[–] Kaisha001 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Women are can have problems that are specific to them and their situations, there is no need to make it a contest.

Not a single thread goes by where women insist, despite all evidence otherwise, that they in fact have the biggest problems, that only their matters, and that men's problems don't matter.

Heck, all of feminism is pretty much 'women's problems matter, men's don't'.

Nothing gets women riled up faster than telling them they aren't vicitims...

Is she perfect? Almost certainly not. Is his side represented and does it deserve to be to pass a judgement on him? No and yes. But when I see something like this I think to myself "oooh that's how a man ends up blindsided with a divorce." Especially when a man finds time for leisure in front of a wife who feels like she can't take a break. Clearly this couple needs counseling and better communication, I hope they can fix it.

No counseling or communication will fix anything.

If he's lazy, then he's always been and she just chose to ignore it up until now. No amount of nagging will change it.

If he's not, and she's the one with the problem, no amount of evidence will convince her that she isn't the vicitm here and that her 'feelz' are wrong.

But it's not a fucking meme

Given that near EVERY SINGLE THREAD has some form of 'men iz lazy' or 'if men just worked harder'... clearly communication isn't going to fix it.

As a whole, men are not lazy. That's not conjecture. That's not anecdotal. That's not 'mah feelz'. That's just a cold, hard, measurable, and provable fact. There's clearly something seriously wrong when so many women (ie. near every last one of them) believe something so wrong...

[–] relish5k Working Tradwife (woman) 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Men are not lazier than women. When they fail to pitch in at home it has less to do with laziness and more to do with not knowing where they fit in (which I get but like, the first step is asking). men don't really understand what their wives are going through after a baby comes. they freak out and withdraw, stick with what's familiar (work, friends, video games) leaving their wives overworked, exhausted and lonely. I'm sure given the option moms would also peace out from the overwhelming situation of have a newborn, but they can't. Sometimes these patterns are corrected after the newborn stage (as was my experience) and sometimes they are set for the duration of the marriage.

There's a reason why How Not to Hate Your Husband After Having Kids is a best seller. It's about telling women how to communicate with their husbands so that we don't all slip into non-helpful gender roles and expectations. It's helping women to NOT be victims, and helping men to feel included and like a part of the core team at home.

I can't argue with your perception of your social media diet. It's all tailored to the individual anyway so maybe you subscribe to a lot of memes focused on female victimhood, I don't know your SEO. As a mom, I see a lot of memes about domestic labor and 90% of them are funny "share the pain" complaints about how simultaneously chaotic and boring it can be caring for children and keeping up a household, with no mention of husbands whatsoever. And why shouldn't these memes exist? Staying home with kids is isolating and monotonous, if it gives women a respite then great. I do see some memes here and there shitting on dads (like literally, about how long they take to shit) and that stuff ain't for me, I don't think women should denigrate their husbands, especially not publicly (and usually it's very jokey since influencers like to project the perfect marriage anyway). But nothing about complaining about the burdens of domestic labor is inherently anti-male.

[side note - it seems that married stay at home moms have the least amount of leisure time and do the most housework and childcare compared to single moms, which is very interesting. It would be interesting to compare those BLS time tables looking at just married women with children under 6]

My point remains that I read quite a bit of comments like the one I shared (which also included a bit about how they had a great and equal relationship for 10 years prior to baby, and how he's upset they're not having more sex), and when I hear about how mostly women file for divorce, and men can feel blindsided I'm like "K, checks out"

I bet given the choice most women would opt for 5 hours of leisure a week over getting to claim victim status.

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You don’t compensate people for a personal choice.
Who’s to say that in every case it’s a mutual decision? What about in all the cases where neither parent stays home and the woman still wins custody. Let’s face facts here, very few couples have a stay at home mother anymore.
If that were true it would be a fixed amount and not scale with income. Childcare costs do not rise with the extorted partner’s income. The state also takes a cut so they are incentivized to rob the higher earning parent of their child in order to generate an extra revenue stream. It’s not at all related to what’s in the best interest of children because if it was crime rates wouldn’t continue to get worse thanks to children of single mothers. The biggest predictor as to whether a child ends up in jail, runs away or doesn’t finish school is how much access they have to their father.

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There is absolutely no reason not to have default 50-50 custody with no child support at all in this day in age.

There is no default. Custody is a matter of the bests interests of the child. Bitching that the best interests of the child are not fair to the father is just more evidence that guys like you should really not be parents to begin with.

Also, I'm not sure child support gets negated in a case of 50-50 custody -- I think each spouse would be required to pay the other child support at 50% of the general rate, assessed against each other, so if there is a moneyed parent, that parent would end up providing child support funds to the non-moneyed parent. This makes sense, since the money isn't actually going to raising the children, not to the parents, but you probably don't like the idea because the fathers tend to be the moneyed parents, and you don't care what's fair, you only care about what's best for the fathers.

[–] miketrance 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

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[–] miketrance 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

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I actually do https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/the-real-complex-connection-between-single-parent-families-and-crime/265860/

There's a great article explaining that single motherhood is a huge risk factor for criminal children.

It doesn't say anything about joint custody arrangements, or about single fathers.

another https://prospect.org/health/consequences-single-motherhood/

Oh, let's see:

However, our evidence shows that children in single-father homes do just as poorly as children living with a single mother.

Kay, so you can't argue that single fathers are better than single mothers.

Still doesn't say anything about joint custody arrangements. Obviously single parents are going to struggle compared to parents who are together, but don't we want a comparison with parents who are separated? After all, the children will still usually be with only one parent at a time, but now they have to deal with the separation.

Children of divorce are in a tricky situation already. We're not expecting outcomes better than if the family stayed together, we're just expecting the best outcome we can get.

So I'll ask, where is your proof that awarding custody to women solely is better for the children.

I don't have or want proof of that, I never made any claim along those lines. I even said that judges have a sexist gender bias favoring mothers. But the best interests of the child standard is the right standard, we just need courts to see it a little clearer.

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Unlike child support, which is common when divorcing couple has kids, alimony awards have always been very rare, going from about 25 percent of cases in the 1960s to about 10 percent today, said Judith McMullen, a professor of law at Marquette University. In one study of Wisconsin cases, she found it was only 8.6 percent.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-women-divorce-alimony/how-bread-winning-women-are-driving-alimony-reform-idUSKCN0T61O920151117

That's from 2015, I suspect it's dropped more in the past 6 years.

Alimony is generally awarded in cases where the spouses have very
unequal earning power and have been married a long time. For example, a judge is unlikely to award alimony if the couple has only been married for a year. In fact, some state laws prohibit alimony awards unless the couple has been married for a certain amount of time.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/alimony-what-you-need-know-30081.html

California doesn't have clear laws limiting alimony and has a fair number of wealthy spouses. Let's see...

It is a common misconception that alimony is a required part of a divorce or separation. Only about 10-15% of all divorces or separations include any spousal support as part of the final divorce judgment or decree. You may think most divorces involve spousal support since those divorces that do are typically litigated.

https://cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/spousal-support/spousal-support-faqs/

You want more? I mean, I'm sure you do, nobody on reddit can be convinced by evidence, but maybe you should try Googling it yourself instead of making shit up.

[–]miketrance 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (140 children) | Copy Link

[–]danhakimiTalking about pills is stupid 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (139 children) | Copy Link

oh man, more uninformed legal guesses.

Child support is calculated by a strict table... I believe in every state. Depending on details, child support may not be nearly enough to cover the raising of a child. Misappropriating child support is likely to, in many of these cases, result in major red flags.
That money is for the children. If a custodial spouse misappropriates child support payments, inform your attorney, your attorney will inform the judge, and you just and watch what happens. Grab your popcorn.
The court usually doesn't award custody because custody is usually agreed to by the parents.
When the court determines custody, it usually uses the "best interests of the child" standard and not the "find an excuse to funnel more money to the woman" standard. Judges tend to be relatively good at this. Unfortunately, since women still tend to be primary caregivers, and are largely percieved as being better caregivers, judges do tend to favor women in custody determinations. We might want to combat this by either changing the perception that fathers do or should play a lesser role in parenting, or, on the individual scale, by being better parents to our children (ideally, in a way that can be displayed to a court through admissible evidence of the best interests of the child).

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[–] miketrance 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Get in front of the mirror, turn off the lights, and say it three more times, see if it comes true.

It already has. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature can see it.

Well, having any default custody arrangement would be incredibly dumb, so I kind of doubt feminists have been wasting their time on that issue when there are actual issues to be discussed. Don't worry, lawyers aren't stupid enough to fall for your "default custody" bullshit.

Wrong again. First off, you keep saying best interest of the child but you aren't actually stating what you based that off of. Judging by the rest of your commentary, it's based off you talking out of your ass. Second, here's a link from a feminist blog detailing feminism's organized effort to undermine shared parenting legislation. http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2006/0802sacks.html

Also, lawyers are currently fighting FOR shared parenting rights and it is already the default in many European countries. Let's see some evidence that giving women primary custody is actually in the best interests of the child because crime and other risk statistics for single mother households directly contradict that claim.

Next, https://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/06/03/new-organization-of-leading-women-for-shared-parenting-may-finally-end-courts-favoring-mothers-n1611512

Here's a few interesting highlights from this article. "Continually, between 78 and 87 percent of both men and women support shared parenting – and there is no statistical difference between the sexes. Dr. William Fabricius, an Associate Professor of Psychology of at Arizona State University, discovered these results when polling residents in Pima County, Arizona. He also found that polls taken in Canada and a vote in Massachusetts revealed very similar results. But sadly, Fabricius writes, “there is a very sizable gap between current popular views strongly favoring equal custody, as reflected in polls and votes on custody allocation, and actual legal outcomes.”

So what is your evidence that contradicts Dr. Fabricius' claims?

[–] danhakimi Talking about pills is stupid 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

It already has. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature can see it.

Man, go to law school and tell your family law professor that, see if you can squeak by with a D.

Wrong again. First off, you keep saying best interest of the child but you aren't actually stating what you based that off of. Judging by the rest of your commentary, it's based off you talking out of your ass. Second, here's a link from a feminist blog detailing feminism's organized effort to undermine shared parenting legislation. http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2006/0802sacks.html

This is pretty clearly not a feminist blog. A couple of MRAs wrote that -- it says so at the bottom of the article.

The article has a few obvious lies in it. But that's not surprising.

I told you not to send me any of your bullshit blogs.

Also, lawyers are currently fighting FOR shared parenting rights and it is already the default in many European countries. Let's see some evidence that giving women primary custody is actually in the best interests of the child because crime and other risk statistics for single mother households directly contradict that claim.

To clarify, "shared" parenting is very common, if you mean joint custody in general. A default 50-50 arrangement is stupid bullshit.

Next, https://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2013/06/03/new-organization-of-leading-women-for-shared-parenting-may-finally-end-courts-favoring-mothers-n1611512

Here's a few interesting highlights from this article. "Continually, between 78 and 87 percent of both men and women support shared parenting – and there is no statistical difference between the sexes. Dr. William Fabricius, an Associate Professor of Psychology of at Arizona State University, discovered these results when polling residents in Pima County, Arizona. He also found that polls taken in Canada and a vote in Massachusetts revealed very similar results. But sadly, Fabricius writes, “there is a very sizable gap between current popular views strongly favoring equal custody, as reflected in polls and votes on custody allocation, and actual legal outcomes.”

So what is your evidence that contradicts Dr. Fabricius' claims?

Does he have a poll about "equal custody," or only a poll about "shared parenting?" If the poll doesn't specify equal custody, then he doesn't have evidence about equal custody.

[–] miketrance 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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Sure you did, you said the standard we have now is "best interest of the child".

Alright, so you're saying that, when I said the standard is "best interests of the child," you think that the best interests of teh child is for women to get primary custody?

Right now women get primary custody 86% of the time.

Like I said, that's probably a bad thing that probably reflects some sexism.

But to clarify, you really love to blur the line between "sole" and "primary" custody, and also blur the line between "shared custody" and "an even split," don't you? You know that "primary custody" could be a 60-40 split, right?

You think the standard we have now is the best one, therefore you think that women getting primary custody is the best interest of the child.

No, I think that judges are having trouble with our current standard. Don't put words in my mouth, asshole.

by counteracting all the research I've cited proving otherwise.

haaaaah, yeah, all the research you've cited, lol, yeah, I'll get right on that, here's my response to "all" the research you cited:

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I didn’t admit I was wrong, I said that child support is used as spousal support by a biased family Court system.

Oh, looking back, I get it -- when you said "that's all well and good," you didn't mean, "you've successfully proven the exact thing I asked you to prove," you meant, "even though you've successfully proven the exact thing I've asked you to prove, I'm going to move the goal posts entirely to an utterly different topic, and then ignore everything you say that even vaguely relates to the way money gets distributed because I don't actually care about the truth."

I was naive to think you care what anybody says.

When primary custody is awarded to women over 86% of the time during divorce in the US i would say it’s a pretty valid argument.

So, again, you ignored the fact that child support is generally lower than the actual expenses of raising a child and the fact that misappropriating child support payments is illegal and chose to continue the conversation with the oppsite assumptions, still pretending it's used as spousal support even though you know that doesn't make a lick of sense. Oh, and still assuming it's used by judges around the country as an evil scheme to funnel more money to women.

I'll also point out that, although you demanded sources from me, you have provided none of your own. (That's not an invitation to link me to RP blogs, nobody wants to read that shit).

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The original post is just another dumb "men are terrible" post. This crap is just displaying that posters have an axe to grind.

And, yes, I agree that some experimental setup in a lab probably doesn't capture the cases where women lie in the real world. On the topic of women lying about partner counts, there's a study on that, and you're right. Men are quite honest about their partner count (despite people who claim that men triple their partner count). Women aren't so honest about it:

Women who thought their responses might be read said they had had an average of 2.6 sexual partners, compared with 3.4 partners for those who thought their answers were anonymous. But those who thought they would be caught out by the polygraph reported an average of 4.4 partners.

In contrast, men’s answers did not vary significantly. Those attached to the lie-detector reported an average of 4.0 partners compared with 3.7 for men who thought their answers would be read.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3936-fake-lie-detector-reveals-womens-sex-lies/

All of these dumb "men are terrible" posts are getting real old.

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I'm a Quaker. A big part of living according to what I believe is in a Godly fashion is not lying.

Do I ever not lie? No. I went 1 1/2 years once with always telling my truth than told a whopper to get out of a job I didn't want impulsively. However, when I do impulsively lie I go back to the person I lied to and apologize.

The last time was I got impatient waiting for a receiver to come open the door and pushed it. Alarms went off, in the moment when a guy came running I said my cart hit it. I was ashamed right after, my boss teased me about it for a couple of days.

Not everyone lies. I've been with my husband for over 20 years (he's not a Quaker) and he has never lied to me.

Most lies are white, and most people tell white lies ( you look great! when they don't look so great) but most people do not live a lie.

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If you think wearing mascara is a form of deceiving men then I literally can’t help you.

I never asked for your help. No matter what you say, make-up doesn't make you be better, it's illusion no matter why you do it. You lie about your status, about your looks, about your confidence, WHATEVER, still lying.

And I’m sorry but how many women cake up their features to the point where they look like a whole new person?!?!

Non padded bras are very rare now. That single handedly makes women's chest frequently just total illusions.

How many men cake up their life to the point where they are whole different persons? I lied about being a virgin to girls so they'd not chicken out at sex with me. That's pretty much as good as some make-up to correct your skin.

Im sorry but if women drawing in darker eyebrows to be pretty for themselves makes you have a breakdown I, again, can’t help you with that.

Haha that's the fun part. Many things women do makes them uglier. The fake eyebrow thing is something so dumb.

You used virtue signaling completely wrong, just like the rest of your arguments. Don’t use words you don’t know the meaning of.

Doesn't matter, it works, if you start reading girls like this as a man you rarely ever get fooled by their bullshit marketing attempts.

It also works for reading companies and job hunting, it's hilarious.

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No, men are politicians and business leaders and their lies have power too.

Those are a small minority of very intelligent men (who are sociopaths). The average male jerk would never even make it to their level, let alone come up with that type of shit.

Politicians and top businessmen can definitely outsmart the majority of the population, including men and women. I dont disagree that they have power, they have the most power.

As far as interpersonal stuff, women can probably run rings around guys if they want to.

This is more what im talking about. The average guy isnt onto womens capping. Especially nowadays, men seem even more oblivious to it.

Maybe because women get better with reading talking and words at a younger age than guys do.

Maybe. But i think its also just biology. Women have much higher emotional intelligence than men. And women are also more social naturally which makes them better at reading people.

For a man to compete with women, he has to be intelligent, be social and interact with many people and gain experience (not just with men but also with women) and be very observant.

Nowadays a lot of guys are actually LESS social than we are naturally inclined due to videogames, the internet and related entertainment. The guys who are more into that have less of a social life and are even worse at competing with women. They stand no chance.

there is no evidence that in a place like this, with a bunch of randos, that only one sex is slinging all the bullshit.

I agree with that. Both sexes are slinging bs.

My point is only that women are better at it. And this isnt really criticism. Its one area where women have a clear advantage over men (on average). You guys should be proud of it. Its not only about bsing others, it also means you are better at figuring out others bs.

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If it’s “intent to deceive” that’s important, then Barneysparky has a point. Men who use beards to hide a weak chin are in fact deceiving if make-up to hide a pimple is deceiving. It doesn’t matter if it’s natural or not; intent is intent. A man who just has a beard, with no intent to it, is not what is being referred to.

Thus why it’s not deceptive for a guy to wear pants in public, despite it being unnatural, because he has no intent to deceive on his “size”, just to follow social norms. Women follow social norms (in the US) by shaving their legs and, indeed, using makeup as part of grooming practices; it’s seen as unladylike and lazy unfortunately.

I absolutely agree on the shape wear though; nobody can tell if you are wearing it, so there’s no social pressure. Would be the equivalent of a man wearing lifts or putting a sock in his briefs.

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One thing I've noticed on this sub is how frequently men say women are liars and can't be trusted. This leads to some men disregarding anything the women here have to say about their own experiences.

Not necessarily true.

Just because "them" is lying, doesn't mean "us" is NOT lying. We're all only human.

However, regarding the amount of lies, women turned out to be the most reliable, and men’s behaviour, particularly when paired with women, is worrisome, to say the least.

No, it's not worrisome. It's adaptation to the way things have downspiraled. What people seem to have an issue with just may be competition in the fields "traditionally" held by females. Since females aren't being treated equally to males - punishment, perhaps males adapted their tactics and started LYING more, I mean not telling the truth, which only misandrists call "lying", let's call it that, because it sounds more INCLUSIVE. Thoughts?

So, maybe it's women who need to start saying lying is AMALT.

Please. Females are socially TRAINED to lie from day 0. Especially compared to how males are raised.

And, yes, AWALT, AMALT and AHALT.

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Thanks for sharing this OP. It's interesting. That said, I feel that you have misread this study.

For those that didn't read it, the TLDR is that a person is given a small amount of money. They then tell the other player how much it is (but can lie) and offer the other person a share. If the other person rejects the deal, all money is lost. All communication is via computer, but the people do know each other's gender.

First, we should have to realize that lying/low-balling here isn't exactly immoral. Any more than it would be at poker. It's a game and very low stakes. Secondly, it's good to note that the sample size here is pretty small, with each gender pairing having only ~100 examples. So the whole study is pretty inconclusive.

That said, here's the results.

Speaker	Decider	Lied	Size of lie	Offer	Accepted
Man	Man	65%	20.9%	42.1%	69%
Woman	Woman	74%	18.7%	40.0%	85%
Man	Woman	70%	21.1%	41.6%	76%
Woman	Man	73%	17.2%	41.2%	61%

OP, you said:

Men lie more, tell more selfish lies and tell the biggest whoppers to women.

You are right about 1/3 of these.

In the experiment, woman lied more often. They also offered the least to their partner, so it seems they are being more selfish with their lies. They were particularly dishonest and selfish towards other women.

In the experiment, men told the biggest lies, but less often. They also then offered the most to the other person. They were particularly honest and generous with other men.

But the biggest difference by far isn't in the lying or the offers. It's in the acceptance of an unfair deal.

Men who felt they had gotten a raw deal were the most likely to walk away and let the whole thing go to pieces even though it meant they got nothing. Women accepted that lying and crappy offers (again, particularly from other women) were just part of the game.

Men showed principles. Women showed practicality. That's the most divided bit here.

Title	Experimental Evidence on Gender Differences in Lying Behaviour
Author	DespondentColors
Upvotes	46
Comments	626
Date	June 28, 2021 8:48 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/o9t3mi/experimental_evidence_on_gender_differences_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/experimental-evidence-on-gender-differences-in.787322 https://theredarchive.com/post/787322

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