FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

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I don’t quite know what you mean by “do something about it” but I do know that I hate low blows, and attacking appearances is one of them- for both males and females.

Perhaps the low blow towards men that upsets me the most is when a woman gives up in an argument and starts hurling insults of “this is why you’re incel/single/virgin” or “have fun being alone”. It’s just cruel and unnecessary in my opinion, even if a low blow was first dealt by the man. Someone stopping low to the ground doesn’t mean you have to in return and I see a lot of women pull the, “but he did it first!” Okay? Have you no integrity in your own person so as to not let yourself degrade just because someone else did?

Anyway. Dunno what you want us to do about it really, but at the very least I call it out and say it’s uncalled for or pathetic

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You might not like this answer, but it’s up to men to stand up for themselves and for other men. Men are shamed by other men, the term manlet can from 4 Chan fitness. Bros shit on other bros too much Boys are more prone to be both bullies and victims of bullying

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881143/

Women get their social power from solidarity. If only fat, ugly girls got mad for being shamed, boys wouldn’t care. Reality is that ALL girls will dog pile on some guy being mean to the unattractive girl.

Guys will too often join in laughing when a girl is being a jerk. If the cute boys back in high school shut that shit down when the girls said mean things and clapped back, girls would learn to shut up. Too often it’s guys who start the bullying, or laugh when the girls start it.

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[–]Sure_Tourist1088Red Pill Man 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago (58 children) | Copy Link

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[–]HighestTierMaslowNo Pill Woman. I hate people. 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Sex is different for men than it is for women. Yet you want equality in this matter do you not? Isn't that what you were advocating for?

I want certain aspects to be equal (e.g. if men don't get slut shamed, women shouldn't too). I don't want all aspects to be equal (e.g. men penetrate during sex and women receive during sex, this doesn't need to change.)

So, if a man sleeps with 100 women... he does so because 100 women see him as high quality.

If a woman sleeps with 100 men... this does not imply quality, it actually implies low quality.

This is unequal and should change. The reason it should change is because sometimes natural things are wrong in modern society. For example, it is natural for men to rape women, but this is wrong and should change. It is also biologically natural for humans to be naked and not wear clothes, but this is wrong and should change.

So just because nature made it so that woman are expected to be more selective than men doesn't mean modern society should do the same.

The issues with childbearing and investment are less important now that we have birth control (reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancy) and child support laws (forcing men to financially support their children). Because modern society has limited the biological issues with sexual selection, it is okay to expect equality here.

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"Oh, so it's OK to say statically you are more likely to be raped or killed by a man, and it's not bigotry, got you".

WTF does this have to do with cows and sharks?

"Glad we eventually got back to the actual topic".

No we haven't because you keep making random nonsensical statements. What we've gotten back to is you changing the conversation for the 12th time aften you've made yet another random response that has nothing to do with the previous comment.

"I gave you three options as you were using gendered stastics when originally you claimed that was bigotry when the situation suited you. However when it didn't you decided it was OK".

What are the 3 options? What gendered statistic was I using? We were talking about cows but you went on a tangent about bulls. Bulls actually kill fewer people than cows because there are fewer bulls.

"This is the issue you know you are playing a double standard, hence the insane attempt to circlejerk while making yourself look really daft".

Trust me, I'm not the one who is making themselves look "daft".

"I also love the attempt to go yeah well women are evil because with your stastic showing, this was never about bigotry but about your feelings being hurt by a hypothetical situation".

So it's wrong to point of the statistical fact that women kill infants but not the fact that men rape and murder? You are the one who started that line of conversation.

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It doesn’t. But there’s limitations to what bears can do to people. At the very worst, a bear will eat you alive, leave your entrails strewn about the forest floor, come back to pick your bones as you slowly asphyxiate on your own blood.

Horrendous, yes. Wouldn’t recommend it on most days. But to some people, a strange man can potentially do worse. Because unlike bears, humans have imagination, and to some people, there are some things worse than death. What it comes down to, and what men are missing, is the element of the unknown. That is what women are responding in fear to.

To me, the above argument resonates, but it’s also a matter of practicality. A bear is ruled by instinct, and instinct can be affected. Because of that, I think with the right tools and survival knowledge, I have some percentage of a chance of surviving a bear intent to do me harm. I don’t know if I have the same percentage chance with a man who has similar intentions. We don’t know if the guy will be Jeffrey dahmer or Mr. Rogers, and because we don’t know, many are unwilling to take the risks they come with what they do somewhat know: a ravenous bear.

Whether you find this thinking flawed or not, it doesn’t mean it is without reason or logic. Women’s unfortunate history with men largely influences these answers, because, as much as you don’t like it, men are threats to women and prove so every day, even in controlled environments. That’s not to speak of a forest. But at least with a bear, we know what we’re getting.

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“ERM THE BEAR WOULD NOT RAPE ME ERM THE BEAR WOULD LEAVE ME ALONE” the odds a normal guy would rape you at any given moment is pretty fucking low the stats that you try to push arent even possible or else we would littarly see the number of rapists per capita be diabolical, as if they think the bear wont maul them with 0 compassion cause its a wild fucking animal 🤣

“ERM ITS ABOUT HOW MEN CANT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER AND NOT RESPECTING HOW WOMEN FEEL” Simple logic would show a bear posses a greater threat than a normal guy so why wouldn't the average man feel the need to defend himself against such a stupid hypothetical. Who gaf how women "feel" in the face of an absolute fact.

homicidal unfeeling bear who views you as a light snack VS Kevin aged 25, loves long walks on the beach, breadsticks, and his dog named Ranger

https://preview.redd.it/inyveemlctzc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d66001c7f601e910fa02b948113764e46f4dce1c

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[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Available_Log_6622go fck yourself pilled 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]HighestTierMaslowNo Pill Woman. I hate people. 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Some do but the reality is that people are more inclined to believe in things that are convenient for them to believe. This is true of all human beings and the only people who are less like this are the ones who are aware of this. The people who claim they are perfectly virtuous are usually lying, especially to themselves and ironically that makes them less virtuous than someone who is open and honest about their flaws.

The way this is always so innocently framed as "oh we just believe x is true" is a way to hide what is actually true, namely "I need to believe x is true because its convenient for me to get advantages without feeling guilty about it".

To me all of this is just a smokescreen. Feminists just love pretending to be virtuous when they really aren't any more than your average human being. Believing women are disadvantaged is quite problematic when you don't even care about proving that this is the case, or if you don't even acknowledge the difficulty of comparing "what is worse" in an objective manner. Ultimately these people are going to believe this, regardless of what the real world is like. You could live in the most extreme matriarchy imaginable and still you'd have feminists claiming women are disadvantaged, because their belief is completely disconnected from empirical data. This belief is not about it being true, its about making their ideology coherent so they can ease their conscience when trying to advantage women.

[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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Like I said, their methods are "by any means necessary." Collateral damage aka naked misandry isn't de jure fundamental to the movement, but it is de facto fundamental to the movement. Radical feminists turn a blind eye to any woman who abuses a man and the "men are trash" style rhetoric. They don't care if a 30 year old woman rapes a 14 year old boy and leaves him with an 18 year state-imposed sentence of child support for the resulting baby. They don't care if a woman stabs a boyfriend 120 times and kills him and gets no jail time. When cornered about it, radical feminists will make excuses and play the whataboutism card: "but what about the female victims" as a derailment tactic. It's done here all the time.

Radical feminists demand that men step up for women, but they will never step up for men who are victims of women. They demand what they never give in return.

[–]januaryphilosopherWoman/20s/Irish/UK/Maths teacher/radfem/healthy BMI/bi/engaged 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BrainMarshalPurple Pill Man The Bear-Shifting AI Art Freak 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Individuals decide their means and boundaries and violence or any other form of hurting people is heavily discouraged.

LOLno. Which feminists protested Mary P Koss when she said women cannot rape men? Which feminists protested Sharon Osbourne when she and a whole crowd of women cheered Catherine Kieu castrating her husband unprovoked? Which feminists protested Saturday Night Live making fun of Tiger Woods being abused by his wife for cheating?

Explain to me which feminist groups out there are protesting to save underaged male rape victims from being hauled into court and assessed an 18 year sentence of child support if the rapist has his baby? I'll wait.

And "edge cases" is irrelevant when we're bringing up a male victim. Bringing up male killers in that discussion is the very definition of derailing... whataboutism. It stops being a mere edge case when the woman perpetrator is cheered by other women, or gets a super light sentence. That is when it becomes institutional. Particularly when the DOJ's own statistics show women get lighter sentences than men for the same crimes.

[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]funfacts_82Red Pill Man - PPD automod is a woman 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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Hasn't it been proven that women work harder as well? Hmmm.... there's something in the world called hundreds of years of gender discrimination. It doesn't just magically erase itself after women are granted equal rights under the law. That shit lingers.

Women always have two jobs.

Mother and career woman. They account for 70% of the unpaid labor worldwide. It's sad they don't get a break like men do. When my mother came home from work, she still had to deal with the kids. My father just kicked his ass back and gamed all night while my mother was cleaning up after him. My mother also worked a month straight and he job didn't pay her a penny of the wages. She fought hard through court to get thst cash but nothing came through. She was also in a higher position than my father working for the same company. She brought that shit to court, and still nothing.

You have some wack ass stereotyped about women.

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[–]Available_Log_66221 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I meant that women do have to take on two jobs. They have to act as the parent to their child and have to work. We just devalue the labor women partake in so we don't consider it a real job.

"Other studies have found that women are more productive than men because they are assigned 10 percent more work than men, yet achieve the same completion rate. Additionally, women exert higher physical effort for small rewards, which may contribute to differential behavioral preferences."

"First, both men and women actually complete about 66 percent of their assigned work. However, women are assigned 10 percent more work than men these days — that they achieve the same completion rate tells us that they're being more industrious."

Why are women being given more to do? However, if you include hours worked inside the home, such as child rearing, housekeeping, meal preparation, and running a home, then women work many more hours in a week than men on average. "

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Hard work is irrelevant, results are relevant. Get. That. In. Your. Head.

That's why you think women are winning because in your mind ending up with a degree is the solution when it's merely just a stepping stone.

There's way more options to succeed in life than degrees.

But let's assume for a moment what you say is true. Then how exactly are women winning when literally almost every single of the fields that require a high level degree are still dominated by men across the board?

Doctors, Scientists, Nobel prize winners, CEOs etc are still mostly men. What good does it do spending a quarter of your life working towards a degree when you don't make good use of it anway?

Women are dominant in graduating for almost 2 decades now and there still 8snf a meaningful shift observable in those positions. Now tell me why is that?

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There was zero affirmative action or “special treatment”.

You're either blind or arguing in bad faith. You said you're in California right? Here's some special treatment you'll get to benefit from once you graduate:

California's Women on Boards (SB 826) law, passed in 2018, requires publicly traded corporations with headquarters in California to have at least one woman on their boards. Companies that don't comply may face fines of $300,000 per unfilled seat.

Just in case, I'll explain it logically: Companies get punished if they don't have women on their boards. So there is more demand to hire/promote women. This means that you as a woman will have a bit of an advantage if you apply to a job vs. men with the same set of technical skills.

For a man to compete against you he has to compete not against your technical skills, but also the desire for companies to hire a woman instead.

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You're twisting the point. It's not that black and white either. They do get advantages. Not an automatic preference.

If I were a woman with the same skills/experience I have now as a man, my career would be easier because I'd be more in demand in my industry. However, if I were a woman without the skills I have, then I wouldn't be in demand.

I'm assuming you're in college by how naive you sound and your inability to understand the difference between a tiebreaker as a soft preference and hard/obvious discrimination.

Walk into any Computer Engineering class and survey the gender distribution. You'll see why - even if you don't understand - men take the higher jobs. There are more men willing to enter competitive industries and compete for the good jobs, despite the thumb on the scale against them.

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Feminism is mostly about trying to have sex with Chad/Chads without losing access to resources.

the TWO resources being either, get the government to pay, or change the culture in a way that shames beta bux husbands who don't want to accept it by calling them insecure or "controlling".

Government

Feminists: There are not enough men who are good enough!!! Now the only solution is to be single mom's and tax the average man to pay for our Chad sons!!! I mean our kids!!! 😳😳😳

Beta bux

Feminists: Why do you think you can control my body Billy??? Who I have sex with is NONE of your business!

Beta: But baby, if you want to see a lot of people, why shouldn't we just break up? I'll still be down to have sex with you, but I'm not sure if I want to pay for all this stuff in a relationship like this 😭😭😭

Feminists: YOU ARE TRYING TO BREAK UP BECAUSE YOU'RE INSECURE. And that's ridiculous Billy, I'd never have no commitment sex with YOU 😂😂😂

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Body positivity isnt about some fictional chad, its about treating fat people like gasp human beings! If mocking fat women helped obesity rates, we’d be a damn skinny nation

Saying that being morbidly obese is "OK" doesn't help anyone either. In fact, I'd argue it promotes obesity. Besides, women only have body positivity for women. Men don't get body positivity AT ALL. I'd believe it if they included men, but it's just about trying to make men view fat women as attractive.

They want college degrees because in America we have a “move out at 18 and go to college or else youre a loser who works at mcdonalds” culture.

Be honest, do you know a single person who left their parent's house before 21? People don't move out at 18 anymore. It doesn't happen. Women can stay home as long as they'd like too, because they aren't shamed for it like men are.

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By definition, if it is only being done to someone based on their consent, then it can't be dehumanization. Consent is a thing only humans can do.

Hurting others for pleasure is bad regardless whether those being hurt want it or not and people enjoying it can only ever be bad.

Why? People get hurt in sports- hell, there are sports designed around combat and getting hurt, like wrestling, boxing, arm-wrestling, and if you count muscle strain as pain, any burst sport like lacrosse, football, etc. People cook spicy foods for their friends for their friends' pleasure, or create haunted houses to scare people for the enjoyment of the fans. There are plenty of negative experiences people do for fun, because those things release endorphins.

Killing a suicidal person doesn't absolve me of the crime of murder.

That's a different conversation- about legality, not morality. Plenty of societies consider assisted suicide a perfectly fine thing, and some societies make it illegal. (The main issue with assisted suicide is that you can't consent if you're not informed, and certain mental health conditions can block your ability to process information- in the same vein as you shouldn't have sex with someone who is too mentally impaired to consent to it, you also shouldn't do other things to them).

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By definition, if it is only being done to someone based on their consent, then it can't be dehumanization.

And which definition are you referring to that says dehumanisation can only be nonconsensual. Dehumanisation is dehumanisation, whether the objects of it want or not, and dehumanisation is bad. Even if the objects of dehumanisation like it, what about those who dehumanise? What do we think of people who want and like to dehumanise other people? Certainly nothing good.

People get hurt in sports- hell, there are sports designed around combat and getting hurt, like wrestling, boxing, arm-wrestling, and if you count muscle strain as pain, any burst sport like lacrosse, football, etc.

None of these is comparable. None of these have dehumanisation and sadistic domination as their endgoal, even if individuals might feel it and be motivated by it. Defeating someone in a sport is by no means comparable to enjoying stimulated grape.

That's a different conversation- about legality, not morality.

No, it is precisely about morality. Killing innocents is wrong, even if they want it. Imagine if people could say "but Your Honor, they consented to me killing them!" It is ridiculous to even consider it.

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And which definition are you referring to that says dehumanisation can only be nonconsensual.

If consent is defined as "wanting something with the knowledge of what it is and what receiving it entails and understanding the generals of removing oneself effectively from it", then Objects can't consent to things at all, and animals can only somewhat consent to some things. Only humans can consent to things to a great extent. Acting based on something's consent is therefore an act of humanizing them.

None of these is comparable. None of these have dehumanisation and sadistic domination as their endgoal, even if individuals might feel it and be motivated by it. Defeating someone in a sport is by no means comparable to enjoying stimulated grape.

It may help if you define how you use your terms: Dehumanise, sadistic. I defined the former above, and I define sadistic as "To enjoy causing intense stimulation to another entity". By that definition, most of my examples apply.

Imagine if people could say "but Your Honor, they consented to me killing them!"

No one can say "Your Honour" in a conversation about morals, only laws. Laws don't define morals and morality doesn't define laws (hence why you can't be arrested for not saying please and thank you to someone or not holding the door open for them, and why you can be arrested for plenty of things plenty of people don't generally consider immoral).

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There has been a rise in domestic violence against women.

In my country this has been on the news and there have been many protests and publicity about this.

Many people are saying things "need to change" and '"something needs to be done"

I recently read a story about a women who was murdered by her boyfriend. The women, started messaging another man on social media and decided to break up with her boyfriend. The boyfriend reacted, stabbed her and killed her.

No women or person ever deserves this.

But it makes me think - Women are exercising their hypergamous nature through social media. We know that the average women has countless options compared to the average man. 90% of men can be replaced at any time by a women but 90% of men don't have the option to do this. With the rise of cost of living, mental health crisis as well maybe it's just too much for men to handle? Knowing your girlfriend is leaving you over a man who DM'd her on instagram, whereas your chance of getting another gf comes by once in a blue moon? Violence/outrage?

Discuss

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Look. I don’t think ANYONE is happier as a "corporate slave" if it's a really shitty job. But statistics show women tend to be happier with their job than men are. A lot of women work in professions they are passionate about, such as nursing, teaching, and dog grooming. I love my own job and the structure/socialization it provides my life. I like having my own money, and it’s VASTLY improved my relationship with my parents and me, as well as my independence (as an adult who lives at home).

Love isn’t a business transaction where I say "yes master" and bring in a plate of food while a sugar daddy husband gives me my monthly allowance. The decision on who to work and who to stay at home comes from mutual communication based on finances and the needs of the children. Not some bdsm master submission thing from the Bible.

Many women who opt out of marriage and motherhood do so because they have witnessed first-hand the unhappiness that comes with it, often through their own mothers/relatives/friends. Not “corporate girlboss propaganda” but direct experience. Most feminists are antiwork/anticapitalist if anything. Hell look at the ads from the 1950s for all the wine tonics and antidepressant pills that stay at home moms had to take to cope with the endless chilcare and housework

If you get postpartum depression (very common in autism/adhd moms), you get told you’re an awful selfish mom and told to STFU. If you have any hobbies to yourself, you get told you’re a bad mom. If you even want a five second break or a little bit of help, you get shit on.

With a job, if it’s shitty, you can quit and find a better one. if you have a shitty boss you can even possibly sue them for workplace harassment. On average, women with abusive husbands make around 7 attempts to leave.

Unlike motherhood, it also provides adult socialization, which is why a lot of housewife moms fall for pyramid schemes due to loneliness. (look at the lularoe documentary)

If you have a kid with severe behavioral issues due to the dice roll, you can’t just say “Oh I don’t wanna be a mom anymore” and quit. There’s no vacation time. You don’t get a quiet moment to yourself until they’re older. There's no clocking out or sleeping in on weekends.

I am not an antinatalist. But we need to stop with this "corporate slave" argument. Especially when all the older women I know without kids are happier than stay at home moms I know, and more mentally stable. Go to r/regretfulparents and tell me how many blissful trad wives you see there. And it shouldn't be that way. Women should be happy with motherhood so we don't collapse as a society.

The answer is policies/charities that are more helpful for moms and women in general (as a society we often shit on femininity and motherhood) but that would make too much sense.

[–]Maffioze25M non-feminist egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Based take for the most part, but I can't really relate to your part about women being called selfish mothers easily.

From my perspective, people do the opposite, they make a lot of excuses for mothers (and don't for fathers) who mistreat their own children compared to fathers and they present them as victims. I have spoken to both men and women and everyone of them that had an abusive mother told me they feel like their abuse wasn't taken seriously whatsoever. Someone who is very dear to me had a mother who suffered from postpartum depression and as a result she treated her child terribly, leading to lasting negative effects on their wellbeing. And I guess it wasn't a choice, but aren't you ultimately a selfish mother when you suffer from this condition? Not by choice, but still.

I don't think anyone would even consider whether a bad father had a choice or suffered from mental health issues. They would just be called a deadbeat or an asshole and their circumstances wouldn't even be explored in the first place. I really don't think mothers have it specifically bad in this area.

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I don’t understand the point of feminism.

Women are never going to pursue or initiate.

Women are never going to get jobs and be rich just to provide and take care of a man who earns 0$ and would otherwise be homeless without support

Women are not going to emotionally coddle and work hard to entertain men constantly try to win their heart and love

Women are never going to stop trying to be beautiful and intentionally make themselves ugly and then look for love or a companion or sex

Ect ect.

So feminism from my understanding and theory is only for women self independence.

The whole point of independence is to not be dependent.

So a feminist shouldn’t be searching for a man if she wants to be independent.

As any interacting that’s relationship oriented will always result in symbiosis or codependency or compromise.

Which goes counter to independence

Feminism is women wanting to be alone

Except they don’t want to be alone. Because they still want to be around men. And have sex. And have families.

Therefore I don’t understand it. And it doesn’t make sense to me.

I could’ve fleshed out my points more.

But TLDR. Women are not going to flip gender roles. You can’t abolish gender roles. And women aren’t going to be independent if they still use or need men. So unless Feminist are going to be entirely independent and not deal with men and be single or lesbian. It is literally pointless.

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[–]berichorbeburied🔥legendary🔥 🔥saiyains🔥 🔥will🔥 🔥power🔥 man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You have no reason. Or no logic to it.

Which is what I assumed.

You are using your emotions as an answer.

Which isn’t an answer.

Because you would simultaneously cancel out emotions being a valid reason for something you personally was against.

So emotions can’t be a valid reason under that logic.

And fyi. I’m not telling you what to do or what to do. And I’m not judging you.

You have free will. Do what you want.

And no we aren’t the same.

I’m following logic and concepts and formula through out my actions and thoughts.

And I will change based on what the truth is and based on if there are errors in my thinking.

I don’t go off of feelings.

And I actually do choose what type of women I’m attracted to.

I just wanted to know if you had a valid reason or not.

That’s all.

And yes. I understand that feminism helps you as a lesbian.

Your agreeing with my op/oc

And I’m agreeing with your response.

A closed loop.

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How does feminism help men?

From deconstructing masculinity to find out how it ticks, to expanding legal definitions and support structures, feminism helps men because in more ways than you think men and women need a lot of the same things and feel the burden of a lot of the same problems.

playing soccer/futbol and trying to score against your own team so that you can even the score.

Feminism isn't men vs. women. Well, some think it is, but it should be men and women vs. social issues. The goals aren't zero sum, support for women is not support taken away from men. For instance with reproductive rights, I am not losing anything by women being able to choose to have an abortion or not. In fact, I gain because now if a pregnancy scare happens I can offer support for getting an abortion. A woman being able to choose means there is a decision I can be a part of.

And that you’ll disagree with Misandry or sexism that negatively affects men is actually shocking tbh.

I think you'll find that this viewpoint is surprisingly common among feminists. I'll remind you that places like twox are NOT feminist spaces, they are women's spaces, and women's spaces are not automatically feminist.

[–]berichorbeburied🔥legendary🔥 🔥saiyains🔥 🔥will🔥 🔥power🔥 man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What is deconstructing masculinity?

There is light and dark (the absence of light) and in between (varying degrees of the amount of light).

Basically metaphorically I’m alluding to the fact that in my understanding of what you’re saying. Is basically you want or want to encourage men to embrace women ideals/perspectives/behavioral patterns ect.

Because we don’t live in a vacuum. And nothing does not exist as it’s thought of.

So while in theory you could be focusing on nuetral things. But nuetral things are accepted even in “masculinity”. So to me it’s pretty clear. What that phrasing is leaning towards.

But instead of assuming I will let you explain yourself.

As for saying it’s men and women on social issues

Social is a word for a group of peoples interaction (idk if that’s the correct definition. that’s how I understand it). under that context you are essentially saying it’s men and women vs men or your saying it’s men and women vs men and women.

But under the context of feminism it leans more to you saying it’s men and women vs men.

Because socially. that means men and women interacting with each other. If under feminism women are oppressed by men. If men were to help they would be helping women to fight the oppressors. Which would be men.

Under that framework of feminism.

As far as your last point. I’ll listen to you. I’ve never actually seen male feminists disagree with female feminists and still be accepted during that argument/debate. And usually I see male feminists over apologizing after everything. Even if they didn’t do anything.

But like I said. In theory you could be a male feminist.

And it is my right to be skeptical.

But at the same time. I have no proof that you are not. So I’m just listening and learning.

[–]teball3Blue Pill Man[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What is deconstructing masculinity?

Oh boy. More ink has been spilled over that question in the last decade than could fit in Shamu's tank. However I definitely do not mean this:

Is basically you want or want to encourage men to embrace women ideals/perspectives/behavioral patterns ect.

I mean taking a hard look at masculinity, where it comes from, what is it doing, what is it's purpose, and does that purpose actually serve to help men? The kicker to that being, that if we examine it and see that the answer is "no", then that does not mean we would be better served by being more feminine either. Keep in mind I am talking broad strokes here, so let me narrow it down to an example: do men actually benefit from the idea that because men are stronger, they should be the only ones going to war? Absolutely not. Does that mean that the solution should be that men should be more like women and be protected from war? Also absolutely not. The most equal, and feminist solution, would be that if warfare is needed both men and women should go to war. A complete breaking of a masculine/feminine divide. This is 1 example of 1 facet of this crazy thing we call masculinity.

If under feminism women are oppressed by men. If men were to help they would be helping women to fight the oppressors. Which would be men.

You are close to getting it, but slightly off. It's not that "men" are oppressors, it's that there is a social structure that was originally created by men that we call patriarchy. Men=/=Patriarchy. Patriarchy=/=Men. One is a demographic that can hold any beliefs or ideas it desires, that other is form of society. All men could die tomorrow, and women could continue to uphold Patriarchy all on their lonesome, even without any men around. If that doesn't make sense to you, than I don't think anything about being a male feminist ever will.

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Out of those women who made the first move.

Did they have alot of better options than you?

Were you the best option?

Were they running out of time?

Also there are exceptions to every rule when pertaining to free will.

I’m sure you’ll tell me how women are going after men who are shorter than them in droves next.

But as I think you agreed with. In general. On average this is not changing.

The most attractive women are not pursuing.

And that’s the baseline. The most attractive.

Why? Because they hold the most control or options in dating and everything trickles down from there.

If the most attractive women aren’t pursuing then the logic follows. Any other woman is doing it because they have to. For whatever reason.

Your point on women making more.

I counteract that with settling. As in they are settling for those types of men.

As in most men are not making more money than women when you start talking about overall and you exclude the super wealthy men.

IMO. I could be wrong. Granted.

Your last point on women coddling and working hard to entertain the top 20% of men.

I can accept that logic.

As you are saying the most valuable or attractive or ect type of man. Women would work hard for because it is either rare or it is what they want and by default anything less is something they’d only settle for and not want.

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Well this is the contention.

If the super attractive women are not pursuing. Then that means women don’t pursue in general.

Which means if you want a woman to pursue. She can’t be attractive or she can’t think she’s attractive.

Since attractive women hold the control and options for her to pursue means she wants you and no one else or you are her only option or ect.

Any women below super attractive are more likely to pursue. In general just on this logic.

So yes women pursue and provide and ect.

But when we go to the baseline or the golden standard they in general do not.

If you live your life based on how the women you don’t want operate move. Then you’ll never get what you do want.

If you are ok with settling or being with women you don’t want. Then be happy being pursued.

Yesterday this woman basically threw her pussy at me. And I would’ve threw up. But it did happen. And I could’ve did it. But I didn’t want to.

Now apply that to life.

I’m sure you can get women.

That’s not the point of this debate.

The women you really think are hot and attractive. Were they pursuing you. Were they trying to provide for you. Were they trying to emotionally coddle you and entertain you.

That’s the real question.

And how often do you observe or see that happening with other people.

But your other points I understand. And I won’t contest those points.

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I’m saying the baseline for if x is true.

Should be the peak instead of the valley.

For example it would make no sense to try to figure out what homeless people spend their money on if you are trying to run a successful business.

That’s the logic/concept I’m applying rn.

Of course you could say focus on the average more than the peak.

And that’s an argument.

But seeing the peak we can tell what will happen when one has all the options and control in this hypothetical scenario.

From their moving downward we can see what becomes more likely.

Under that trend and concept.

Women pursuing will happen more on average the more the attractiveness declines. As the options decline. As the awareness of personal value declines. Ect. Ect.

You making an argument about your feelings and your emotions related to the women you’ve been with.

I’m not going to argue with your emotions and feelings.

That’s your opinion.

And opinions are relative.

And opinions change.

And most opinions are not quantifiable or even testable.

So.

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You explain division of labor that highlights strengths based on sex is the definition of gender roles.

If you have gender roles that you accept and agree with that’s fine. But it’s still something that goes against feminism.

Like I said I understand it when it comes to independence and lesbianism.

But you’re still not going to provide for a man. Or choose a man smaller and weaker and younger than you. Or you’re still not going to put all your time and energy into caring for a man with no benefit to you.

And also even in an egalitarian relationship. That’s forced equality. Meaning you would have to mentally analyze every interaction and force 50% across the board. Which in itself goes against feminism. Being forced into something.

So let me clarify. I only think feminism is pointless in the context of women being in relationships with men. Women trying to attract men. Or men and women starting a family. As All those interactions will inevitably involve interactions that go against feminism.

So in that sense it’s pointless. At least from that understanding & perspective

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Equal does literally mean 50%.

You can’t “feel” equal.

Either you are or you aren’t.

But what you’re describing seems to be that you are the dominant one in the relationship.

And if that’s what you want then you found the perfect situation.

You are stronger. You provide. Ect. Ect.

Are you taller than him also?

Idek why you’re arguing with me if you flipped the sexual dynamics.

That’s not feminism anyway.

But I am curious to how you being dominant works?

Are you never going to have children?

And if you do want children how will your dominance play a role in that process? (I.e will you still lift heavy stuff during your pregnancy and after? Will you still provide during your pregnancy and after?)

It’s just something I’m curious about. Because all of your dominance will be pointless if you give that up because of pregnancy and child birth and raising a family.

So I’m assuming you don’t want to have kids at all.

But I’m curious on your dynamics.

In a trying to understand way.

Is he shorter than you? And also is he younger than you?

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50% of overall effort of contribution is essentially a feeling.

If you took everything and averaged it to 50% I guess in theory that could be done.

But then you’d have to get into the nuance of what you considered more important I.e if he or you did 50% of overall contribution or effort but it was only averaged out and only done in things you or him deemed less important. Would it be weighted the same?

But essentially you’re talking about your feeling of feeling like equal effort.

If you provide and you’re taller and stronger.

It’s very interesting.

But you don’t want kids. So I don’t know what the overall point is.

But I guess it’s just that you feel fulfilled right now?

As far as how this relates to feminism.

Honestly your relationship would be feminism.

It’s rare for a woman to do what you are doing.

But if like I said you are the dominant one. Then it’s feminism.

I don’t understand it. I don’t understand the end goal. And I don’t understand the point.

But I accept your relationship as being a poster child for feminism.

As that’s something they would fight for. For sure.

I still disagree with the 50% contribution being a feeling.

Either it’s verifiable or it’s not.

If you are relying on a feeling. Then it’s meaningless and relative.

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Title	FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	5
Comments	768
Date	May 4, 2024 4:00 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1ck3mkg/feminism_weekly_discussion_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/feminism-weekly-discussion-thread.1517417 https://theredarchive.com/post/1517417

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