I hear the statement "The bar for men is extremely low these days" a lot in the context of dating, sex, and relationships. Is the bar low for men's looks or personality/character/effort?

krmaml · 2024-03-21T05:06:15+00:00

A lot of us guys hear this statement and become very confused because it doesn't align with our experiences, so I wanted some insights/clarifications...

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I haven't seen anyone who didn't come into the world screaming murder and covered head to toe in blood.

My experiences with men should tell me they are shallow horny dogs that only care about themselves, and yet, I am able to look past those experiences and not lump them all in with the "bad actors".

We are all shaped by experiences, the difference is whether you are ready and able to take a very hard and frank look at yourself and go "you know... I get it. I get why no one wants to be around me", and make the changes that optimizes and manifests your best self to the world. That doesn't mean the gym, it means taking stock of who you are as a person, who you are in your immediate society, who you are socially.

If one or two people treat you like kryptonite, then, sure they are kinda being assholes. If this is a recurring pattern then you should find a professional to help you pinpoint where it might be going wrong.

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You would have cried at some point.

Strictly about dating, not about your whole social life. Though, I will caution that you have to make sure they are good quality friends who actually listen to you and are there for you, as well as ensure they are not the self-pity, sabotaging types.

Therapy is in fact expensive. Thankfully there are [usually] ressources the government can provide, or insurance, but also? Mental health Hotlines are free. There are also ressources online of what makes a person pleasant vs unpleasant, how to hook someone in when dating that isn't "throw money around and act like an obnoxious fratboy"

Secondly, you need to refocus your locus of control. Right now you're projecting an external locus of control ("Its not my fault! Its the world!") And learn to turn it into an internal locus of control ("I don't like where I am, so I will change it")

As an awkward invisible woman, to an awkward lonely man, hope this helps.

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The OP is asking which bar is Low, physical, emotional or intellectual. The poster I responded to made a broad generalization about a specific subset of often unattainable traits, and made the claim "All women want these specific [physical] traits".

I am a woman, looking for a longterm partner where physical traits are far outweighed by other moredesirable traits (to me). I am not unique in that I need more than a man who only takes pride in the superficial. I've started myself that looks can get you in the door, but it doesn't guarantee you a place to stay.

Even if I am not interested jn people sexually, I still have eyes and the capacity to appreciate a human form for aesthetic purposes. Will that ever be what sways my decision to date or not? No. Does it matter that he is not 6ft? No. Does it matter that his jaw is square? No. Do I like the aesthetic of men with long hair? Yes. Will that factor? No.

When I break it down like this, does it make more sense? I shouldn't have to justify why I am valid, considering men here complain about not being validated all the time.

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Saying "Talk to the woman in question instead of assuming what she wants" is not enlightening?

Saying "don't treat every woman like a carbon copy of eachother" isn't helpful?

Men has more success when they can switch up their strategy based on the woman. One size fits all approaches don't work, and then they come back to have tantrums on reddit about how women are all hoes when they have tried with like.. two women, both whom reject them.

Dating is a war of attrition, not a gender war. The ones who persevere eventually find something they like, or find that nugget of gold that made the pain and heartache worth it. The ones who quit will never find it (blackpill), and the one who dig in the same spot without trying something different will eventually find themselves in a hole of their own making(redpill).

If the latter looks around and starts complaining about "WHY IS THERE SO MUCH DIRT HERE?? THEY TOLD ME IF I KEEP DIGGING I'LL FIND SOMETHING" then yeah, people who found their gold nuggets are going to side eye them.(No Pill)

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So at least to me, I see the bar is extremely low being a reflection of what women request/suggest to hapless men and their reactions kind of saying a lot.

Like, I think immediately of women requesting their partner being hygienic, well-groomed, put together in a fashion sense, and have an aesthetic. When you say this (and so many women do), the reaction a decent portion of men give is like you've asked them to work 7 years, marry their sister, and then work another 7 years to marry them. It's just not a reasonable response to an incredibly reasonable, not that difficult request. But some percentage of men seem absolutely resolutely peeved by this common standard. And we see it as an extremely low standard because well...most women meet it, you don't even have to ask if a woman is meeting it, you don't normally suggest to her that she meet it if she's struggling with dating, that's how freaking assumed it is.

You can see the reactions to women saying they want a handsome man who they're attracted to get the same sort of ire as if wanting to be pleased by the physicality of your partner is like wanting to be Genghis Kahn and own a good portion of the planet. (Another common and really not that high standard).

A woman says she wants her man to be fun to be around, funny, and charming, men here lose their fucking minds and say they refuse to be some bored bint's jester or clown. Like you'd think women are asking them to push boulders up hills and have their innards devoured by crows regularly because those women want to enjoy the company and laugh with the man they're dating. Really? That's the standard that sounds so ridiculous that they refer to actually being pleasant company as jester maxing?

And this kind of remains consistent for almost every standard women mention or bring up. It is met with such scoffing and ridicule, but when you put it on the chopping block and really examine it for what it is, it never sounds like that high a standard.

And when you start to assemble the standards women are suggesting or saying they want, they just don't sound all that outrageous compared to the response they receive. They want a man who takes pride in his appearance, is pleasant to be around, is exciting to be around, and that they're physically attracted to. This isn't the earth and sky, it sounds like the bare minimum anyone should do to be in contention for a romantic relationship. It sounds hideously low as standards go to be someone that gets to put their penis (which can cause pregnancy, disease, or pain) inside of you. It sounds hideously low to be given the opportunity to become someone's true love.

Like, it's so low that if you were auditioning for a commercial there would probably be higher standards. If you wanted to be the next James Bond, there would be higher standards. Frankly, I think the average Hooters Employee meets stricter standards. But if you mention almost any of this to a subsection of men, they act like women want them to Construct the Roman Empire particle by particle while doing a funny dance.

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The stagnant imagery women are attracted to is of men they either have relationships or parasocial relationships with. As in, those men aren't strange to them. Yeah, they have One Direction posters on their walls, but they believe they know those boys and they've seen them moving and existing.

You're also ignoring that most women aren't on dating apps. Which means a particular kind of woman is on dating apps, probably one who isn't super representative of most women because again, most women aren't on datng apps. Probably the kind of woman who is either very desperate or very horny or very something else that allows her to engage in that meat market. When you put the entire puzzle together, it makes sense and doesn't point at what you're saying.

It's not outdated, it just isn't as perfectly black and white as a certain kind of man wants. Most women don't want sex without an emotional connection and will not bend on that. SOME women are willing to bend on that IF he is incredibly, outlandishly hot. You need to stop extrapolating that minority behavior is how the majority thinks or operates.

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There are two problems with the way your explaining how requirements aren't actually that hard to have/get.

First is a complete lack of what quality women actually want. Women saying they want a guy that's fun and entertaining is easy to say but in actuality requires a lot of nuonce and is extremely specific for that women. These two things alone can make this "simple thing" actually be quite difficult.

The second things is the fact of the matter that it becomes exponentially more difficult the more requirements one adds. Being a very specific funny in one thing but now one has to also be a very specific serious and have a very specific face shape, suddenly things have gone from achieva9 to down near random chance based.

The "bar" isn't low because woman have how standards, the bar is through the roof because woman have Soo freaking many extremely specific requirements that getting everything "just" right or any specific women impossible.

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I, and I think most social scientists would disagree that there is really this high amount of complexity to what it means to be "fun" and "entertaining". Like, I wish there were a whole lot of nuance there, but there really doesn't seem to be. There seems to be a vast amount of agreement what is and isn't fun or is and isn't entertaining. It's only difficult to people who aren't naturally those things. This isn't as variable as I think people believe (not zero variability, but very low variability).

The more qualities you add only makes it more difficult if those qualities are difficult to achieve. But they aren't. That's my point. None of anything I said was difficult to achieve or have all at once. Especially since they tend to come from core values or characteristics that bleed into all aspects of life. If you're entertaining and fun, you're probably a lot of the other things because what makes you entertaining and fun comes from the same place.

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Like, I wish there were a whole lot of nuance there, but there really doesn't seem to be.

Can actually Objectively Define what caused something to be considered "fun"? Now remember that I intentionally included the words Objectively Define so saying something from a thesaurus doesn't count.

I think most social scientists would disagree that there is really this high amount of complexity to what it means to be

Depends, because I would argue any social scientist that says there isn't a high amount of nuonce or complexity to social interactions is a bad social scientist...

The more qualities you add only makes it more difficult if those qualities are difficult to achieve.

That's not how math/statistics works. If you have several traits that are easily to have, let's say 90% achievable, then you have a 90% chance to have one of those traits. But if you want 2 of those traits, you have a 81% (0.9x0.9) of achieving both.

This Math holds true no matter how many time you do it. So if you want them to have 7 of these "easy" to achieve traits you have a 47% (0.9⁷⁾ chance at achieving all of them.

Now we know as a fact that women make the traits they not as achievable as 90% and at a generous 70% (even though ita much more like a 40% or less) leads 7 traits to have a chance of 8% to achieve.

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You’re taking “equal” literally

yes because words have meanings. they dont just mean whatever you want.

It’s not about physical qualities.

why not? are physical qualities not including in "equal"? thats pretty convinient if so

Is it also unequal for her to be looking for a man in general? Since you know…he’s a man and therefore they aren’t exactly the same and can’t be exactly equal. If she had blonde hair and wanted someone with dark hair, would that make it unequal?

you understand why different hair colours are not unequal stop using weaponized incompetence

And it’s not necessarily more confident and extroverted than she is. Just confident and extroverted in general. Sure some people want a partner that’s more extroverted than themselves, but it’s because they want someone to balance their introvert qualities.

yes it is. 99% of women do not have the confidence to approach a man and ask him out.

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He probably does slay with a group of women.

I... are... are you being serious here? You really honestly believe a fat bald midget janitor would slay with multiple women just because he's funny? Holy shit. Professional comedians will literally be the first to tell you that it made zero difference to their dating. Larry David is one of the funniest people who ever lived, but there's no women out there touching themselves to Curb Your Enthusiasm. Gilbert Gottfried even wrote an entire essay about how "being funny" means jack when it comes to dating.

But assuming that only ONE quality is enough to get you ANY woman is silly.

That ONE quality (being physically muscular, tall, and masculine) is enough to get you 99% of women, though. That's the point. And he needs to excel in multiple categories as well. Women always date up, no matter what.

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hmm, so never has any real issues with dating and long term relationships, poly queer too so been doing it for a long time now.

Some of what you're saying sounds kinda reasonable and reflective of what I see in the dating world, but I feel like it misses some of the masculine experience aspects. Which is maybe not super surprising;) Also I tend to think there is a somewhat more neutral element involved here, namely, sexual liberation and wildly increased options for lover selection.

The 'equal partner' I think is doing a lot of higher bar work here. Like, how can I phrase this, it's a nebulous sort of term, which I think you're alluding to in your other replies here, but the point is that that nebulousness makes the bar arbitrarily high. It's as high as you want it to be, in other words.

This is something I honestly see a lot in especially the non-poly dating world, as standards seem to get arbitrarily high on the auspices of a supposed 'equal footing'. Little things like the person's opinions bout something, or the way they laugh, or the things they like to spend their time doing, all become terribly 'important'. Rather than, say, how well they treat you, love you, care for you, are sexual with you, etc... which is far more what I would tend to be interested in.

I purposefully don't want to care too much for my lover's being 'equal' with me, as that would entail some kind of strange nuanced evaluation of the person. Are they muslim, I'm not, oops! Do they like to bowl, I don't, oops! They have a different view on the economy, oops!

Just saying that what I as a dude and a successful one in the dating and love life realm of things see a lot of with the 'equal partner' bit, and the 'compatible morals and personality' bit.

The other thing I see is just the plethora of options available, which makes folks think that they can pick and choose, and there is something to that, but the reality is everyone is picking and choosing, so that plethora of options is actually surprisingly limited. Folks being 'too picky' may just end up with no 'chair' to sit when the music stops. Its a consumerists attitude bout sex and love, which is as dubious as it sounds. Like walking in a chip aisle and picking your fav only to find its all out cause everyone else is picking your fav too.

To me, love and sex are labors of love, and they entail such things as working things out between people who may actually have different views, personalities, etc... that supposed to be part of the fun. Fucking the mirror sux.

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I’m the “on paper he checks is the boxes” guy. 6’2”, athletic, nice face, good money.

I always had issues. Ironically, it feels like it was because I had my shit together. I’m not “exciting”. I have my few hobbies, and spend my time not working, relaxing. But I don’t have any exciting stories to tell.

Women want a lot of contradicting things. The main thing I’ve noticed is they want a guy with money who’s in shape, but get mad when you spend 90 minutes a day at the gym, or have to work the weekend. They want a guy who’s emotionally intelligent and communicative. But they want to play mind games, and get upset when you tell them you won’t put up with childish behavior. They want stability. But they also want excitement and drama.

The bar isn’t “high” or “low”. It’s just fucking crooked.

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Sebastian Fundora

I do 12 minutes of HIIT per day (no rest between sets) 4 times per week, and I'm more built than that dude (with a visible six pack). I sprinkle in some exercise snacks (mostly pull-ups, pushups, or pistol squats) when I get bursts of energy throughout the day. I'm a bit taller than 6'1", and I'm in my early 30s.

His endurance is probably significantly better than mine (and 99.9% of the population), though. And, like you, he's taller than 98% of the men in the US, which makes his athleticism even more impressive.

However, unless someone wants to be an elite athlete or a swole bodybuilder, they don't need to go overboard on time in the gym. IME results are all about intensity (with proper form), consistency, diet, and high-quality rest. Follow your schedule; give it your all on every rep; do it properly; eat a nutritious meal; and don't feel guilty for resting.

In my early to mid 20s, when I was into bodybuilding, I used to do 90-minute workout marathons about 5 days per week. In retrospect, it was a huge waste of my time IMO, even though I was a lot more built than I am now (my diet was ridiculous). When it comes to workout length, the point of diminishing returns is a lot earlier than most people think, especially for naturals.

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[–]DumbWordsmithMulti-Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

For me, most of the sessions didn't focus on weights themselves. It was 3/4 cardio and form work etc.

That makes sense given what your were training for.

Yeah, I weigh about 193 lbs right now. When I was bodybuilding, I weighed more than 220 lbs, but my diet was unsustainable IMO.

When I was 16, I weighed like 125 lbs at 6'1". It was bad. I started at pretty much the bottom, even though I was a varsity athlete at the time.

But yeah, if it's your passion and you're combining that with a sport, you're definitely going to be spending a lot of time on it.

No doubt. IMO if you genuinely enjoy working out or you're getting paid for something that comes from it, putting in more work is worth it. But if you're slugging away for 2 hours in the gym for other reasons (like trying to sleep with more women), you're probably wasting a lot of time.

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[–]DumbWordsmith2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not going to make any recommendations for you, since I'm not a licensed fitness, nutrition, or health expert.

However, what I found most effective when I was bodybuilding was focusing on compound movements in the 8-12 rep range (trying to increase the weight every couple of workouts or so) and eating a high protein diet with enough energy intake to fuel a growing body. I did two workouts for each body part per week.

There's going to be a personal limit regardless. Essentially, all an individual can do is maximize their intensity (no lollygagging during workouts or half-assing sets), focus on learning and maintaining proper form to avoid injuries, be consistent with their workouts, eat a good meal after a workout (and throughout the day), get adequate rest during the night, sprinkle in enough rest days during the week, and take some time off every couple of months or so to let their CNS recover.

Long workouts are pretty shit for naturals IMO, because that cortisol spike is going to bite them in the ass. There's really no need for naturals to exceed 30-45 minutes per workout (3-5 times per week) IMO. Given what I know now, even that seems excessive to me.

Like I mentioned before, I think success comes down to intensity (with proper form), consistency, diet, and high-quality rest.

[–]berichorbeburied1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DumbWordsmith1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What is the reason long workouts are bad? (Assuming you work out the right way. Have proper rest and nutrition. And only work out with proper intensity).

I'd say it's mostly because of the law of diminishing returns. (Also, beginners tend to be a bit sloppy.)

After a certain point in a workout, a person is putting in much more than they're going to get out. Unless their goal is to increase endurance, it's not really that useful for them to push it much further IMO. It comes down to being efficient with their time and giving their body (and mind, which is critical for sustaining focus and motivation) the best chance to repair and recover for the next workout.

During a workout, the body produces cortisol, a "stress" hormone; it's inevitable and necessary. However, chronically elevated levels or excessive spikes of cortisol can suppress testosterone levels, promote the breakdown of muscle protein, and increase fat storage.

For naturals, who rely on endogenous hormone production, excess cortisol can hinder results and eventually lead to symptoms of "overtraining." Other issues to consider are tendonitis and bursitis, which often start off as slight annoyances and become really painful over time.

If intensity is the main attribution. Is short bursts of intensity. Or sustained bursts of intensity better for hypothetical peak physique if the male form.

Intensity being one of the main factors is just my opinion after 16 years.

Thus far, my best results have come from short, explosive, focused bursts of intensity. In my case, this typically involves a lot of strategic supersets whereby the exercise that follows the previous one works a different body part.

I have an older friend whose routine is very similar to my current one but involves much slower repetitions. Like me, he doesn't rest much between sets, so it's still very intense. He's a beast for his age, and that's what works for him.

This comes down to preference, I think.

I've tried my friend's approach for a few months a couple of times before and lost a bit strength/explosiveness. I quickly gained it back after a few weeks of intense workouts.

If I'm not mistaken, short bursts of exercise (i.e., HIIT and sprints) have been shown to temporarily increase testosterone and HGH in some studies.

Also assuming proper diet and rest and intensity. Is it possible to keep increasing? (Not if it’s extremely hard to do. Just if it’s possible). If it is possible? Would progressive overload or static regiment be the best solution?

Of course. This will come down to the individual as well.

If something is producing great results, and you're not developing injuries or losing motivation, then why not?

As a beginner, it's best to build good habits out of the gate. Be consistent. Study the proper form for each exercise. Focus your attention each movement. Get to know your body; learn what works for you, and learn to how to notice your limits.

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Diet is the hardest part, and should be about a 500 calorie a day surplus minimum. Wouldn’t do more than that because you’ll gain fat disproportionately fast unless you just reeeaaally wanna dirty bulk.

0.3 grams of fat per pound of bodyweight minimum.

0.7-1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight minimum.

Fill the remaining calories for the day with mostly carbs. Try your best to stick to Whole Foods.

Adopt a muscle building regime that pushes muscle close to failure. Use your compound lifts as the base of your workout (Bench press, squat, deadlifts, barbell rows, overhead press) and supplement them with isolation exercises.

Here’s a list of YouTube channels I watch because they’re either informative or have good tutorials.

Jeff Nippard AthleanX FitnessFaqs Eugene Teo Renaissance Periodization (Dr. Mike)

There’s plenty more to learn. But that’ll start you in the right direction. Also, the only supplements worth buying are protein powder and creatine. You don’t even NEED those. But unless you just want stims for fun, don’t let anyone sell you any junk.

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I think this is a miscommunication. The bar men are referring to is how selective women are about their partner's qualities before they can be attracted to him or sleep with him or commit.

I believe the bar women are referring to is the actions a man needs to perform and conditions he needs to meet in order to get sex. This presumes an attractive man to the woman in question, and is not about what it takes to be attractive to her. Rather, it is a comment about how historically even attractive men had to do a lot of shit before they could get sex, and to keep the sex flowing. Now, hot guys expect sex on the 3rd date, and women have to provide or another woman will. She knows this is the culture, so it doesn't mean the guy is bad--thus she cannot 'next' every guy who wants early sex. She'd run out of attractive men.

There's less commitment and wooing needed to get laid. Less responsibility afterwards--ghosting and pump and dump are common. So guys who are attractive have it easier than ever before in history to get sex. THAT bar is on the floor.

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The bar is so low for men, men just need to be taller than her, richer than her, more emotionally stoic than her but also more emotionally intelligent, but not too emotional or else that's a turn off, he has to be stronger than her but not too strong because gym bros are ick, he has to be passionate and ambitious and make money at work, but still have lots of time for her, he's got to have lots of hobbies and be interesting, and also be interested in her hobbies, he also has to dress well and groom well and smell nice and have good fashion sense, but not be too effeminate (or masculine) either because that's also an ick.

Like, come on guys, the bar is in hell, why can't you just do better. It shouldn't be hard for 100% of men to be the top 1% that women deserve, right?

Meanwhile men's dating standards : don't be fat, don't be a bitch, don't be a pain.

But it's men who are the entitled and superficial ones.

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I recommend sliding into Instagram DMs over dating apps every day. You can harvest IG accounts off Tinder and just browse Insta to find girls. Follow hundreds of girls, message them, respond to their stories. Try to be funny/flirty. Much better odds than dating apps, as you'll at least get some responses and conversations (because girls on Insta don't have thousands of matches to sift through).

Target girls with lower follower counts. You can also work on your profile to make yourself look better/higher status/more sociable/interesting. You can buy followers to give yourself a healthy follower count (sadly, a lot of girls are impressed by this).

I have an anonymous burner account, trolls girls and send dick pics, and still have had a few decent conversations happen, and a few girls who almost seem to like me. One girl said I was the funniest guy in her DMs, she loved receiving messages from me and wanted to know more about me, and she was hot.

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Why are women so collectively obsessed with men who are good at catching every fish then?

because they are good fishers and are catching them?

that doesn't mean these men are the best and healthiest and that their relationships with women are good.

i think its better to realize you shouldnt be attracted to something flashy, but it can take years to learn that through the consequences of your actions. no one seems to want to take the older generations word for it.

> Why is women's priority/obsession is to get genuine love/partnership from those men then?

for the same reason lottery machines work. these men know how to get a woman to play once and then your brain gets stuck bc of inconsistent rewards. women do this to men too. its shitty and i wish men and women could agree on this.

> Why is women's behavior in dating pushing out the men who only want to catch the one fish?

because men hyperfocus on attractive young women, who all the fishers are fishing for

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One thing that a lot of people get wrong is that they don’t understand attraction. In real life, „types“ don’t seem to matter all that much.

My current boyfriend honestly did not meet my „type“ at all. There was nothing physical that made me think about him any higher than any other guy. What made me like him was his personality.

Please don’t date someone just because they’re your „type“. It likely won’t work out.

For your question, a „low bar“ is inhearent with actions alone. One example of men being held to a low standard is that when a man takes care of his children it’s highly praised, but when a woman takes care of her children it’s just her role.

In a lot of „typically feminine“ roles, men are held to a lower standard. Differently, women are held to the same standard for men in traditionally masculine roles of not a higher standard. Women are now expected to work a full time job well, take care of her children and clean the house, where the man is held to a lower standard and still supported.

I have seen men take care of their children (and not work a job or clean the house) be praised heavily because he is willing to take care of the children. That is an incredibly low bar.

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