Forever Alone comes to seddit - Ask Us Anything

Typical_Sedditor · 2012-01-11T17:45:09+00:00

Hello Forever Aloners! In the spirit of giving we thought that we'd give you guys a chance to ask sedditors any and all questions. Now naturally we...

[–]tzutyk 39 points40 points41 points 14 years ago* (47 children) | Copy Link

First off, I do wanna thank you guys for your posts on inner game. It has made me a lot more confident than what I was a couple of months back. From the guy who used to get completely freaked out and start looking at the ground on catching a girl checking him out (yes fortunately I have an attractive face), I'm now the guy who walks up straight, is never the first one to break eye contact (even with guys - it just feels so good when the other guy looks away first), and has started to smile at random people. I'm a bit of an introvert, so I still don't feel like talking to random people, but if I have a reason to, I usually can (and do).

Now, I don't like going to bars/clubs and other noisy places, and don't have much of a social life either. Being an introvert also means that unless the conversation is about something that interests me, I listen more than I talk, while trying to steer the conversation in a direction which interests me, in which case the girl gets bored. Do you have any specific advice for the introvert kinds?
Whenever I see a happy couple, it usually bugs me that that is something I'd kill to have but don't have currently (and I think this applies to most FAs), so such a scene never ever fails to bring me down, irrespective of where I am. Any advice on avoiding this?
Lastly, I strongly think that my biggest problem is that even though I'm close to being 25, I still feel like a 17 year old sometimes (had a very sheltered teenage, which extended even to college years) - any advice on changing that?

As of now, there are three things on my mind - 1. improving myself, 2. having a girlfriend, and 3. work. I don't think I'm happy from the inside, and I want to change that.

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Don't try to be fun for other people, instead entertain yourself. Instead of you entertaining her, she is in fact experiencing YOUR entertainment - and she can be "playing the role" of someone creating the entertainment.

Because she is part of the entertainment (not merely an observer), the interaction should feel less like you are trying to sell yourself to her.

Ideally, the interaction should be a mutual exploration of each other (rather than you just entertaining yourself, however it was easier to explain the mindset that way), with both people giving the other value because they are cool people (without wanting any validation back - i.e don't compliment a girl because you want her to think better of you, but do it because it was a genuine selfless compliment and you thought it would be nice for her)

Essentially the key is to not give a damn about if she likes you or not, but all your actions/words are simply said because you felt like saying them for your own fun. This doesn't mean doing anything at her expense, because that is putting her down to make yourself feel good - which is selfish.

[–]tzutyk 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

sedditor

Now, I don't like going to bars/clubs and other noisy places, and don't have much of a social life either.

You can do day game. You can join clubs or take classes or go to reddit meetups. You can do online dating. Lots of people don't go to bars or clubs but still have active social lives.

Being an introvert also means that unless the conversation is about something that interests me, I listen more than I talk

No insult intended here, but, I think that is a sign that you have poor conversation skills rather than that you are introverted. Look up the technique known as conversation threading. I'm pretty introverted myself, and after I learned that one technique, I was amazed that I could suddenly carry on long conversations with people without seeming awkward.

Whenever I see a happy couple, it usually bugs me

Not sure how to answer this. I definitely won't say that it's silly or insignificant that you feel this way. Physical affection is one of the primary needs of humans (and other social animals too), so I totally sympathize with anyone who feels horrible to have to be reminded how lonely they are.

That being said, if you do the PUA thing right, you could be walking around as part of a happy couple yourself with just a couple months of practice. You have to actually get out there and approach though. Put some serious effort into this.

Lastly, I strongly think that my biggest problem is that even though I'm close to being 25, I still feel like a 17 year old sometimes

This is nothing, brah. You're just letting your mind play tricks on you. I'm sure you're fine, and that other people around you think you're fine too.

[–]aaegler 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]osufan765 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sedditor

1) Listening more than you talk is actually a huge advantage. People like to talk, specifically about themselves. If you can listen and pay attention to what they like and are interested in, and then find a way to weave your interests in and find those commonalities, you should be set.

2) I've actually changed my mindset on this situation completely. I used to get upset when I'd see a couple kissing or holding hands, but now, I just feel good for the guy, sort of like mentally high five him, because he's doing it right.

3) I have this same issue, but I don't know why or how to change it. I think life experience is the only way. I don't want to trade in feeling young ever though. If I can still feel like I'm 16 when I'm 60, I'll feel great about myself I think.

For posterity's sake though, all context specific questions can be asked over at r/askseddit. I think this was meant to be more of a Q and A about the community.

Glad you're taking an interest in becoming a better you though!

[–]tzutyk 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]majorthrowaway123 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

FA here that is slowly starting to get a picture of what I need to work on and a bit how to do it. Just need to find the dedication, the kick in the butt, to actually just go fucking do it. 1) I am like this and I've always liked listening much more than talking, unless it's something that really interests me, which is rare. I tend to narrow my interests over time, and really drill deep into something and I find very few other things interesting for that period of time. I'm really not that shy though, I just don't feel like what I have to say is interesting for someone else in general, which is very much correct for most of my interests..

2) Usually don't have a problem with this.

3) This is definately an issue. Except I feel like 17 year old me, not the normal, general kind of 17 year old...

[–]30vanquish 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Intermediate Sedditor

Now, I don't like going to bars/clubs and other noisy places, and don't have much of a social life either.

Chat with strangers in the daytime. "Hi" works. Smile. Eye contact. Then join a hobby group. Then keep talking to strangers in the daytime and build a network from the group. You create a frame that interests both of you: Fashion and travel are two good topics to start, then add in your own. Ex: "Hi, I had to talk to you cause your fashion looks awesome." Then you talk bout fashion for a minute, then if you're into cars: "Yeah you dress like you'd be driving a mini cooper"
I know how you feel. How I rethink it is: Good to see couples around so I can find someone here too.
Work on inner stuff. What do you want out of life? Write down goals. Write small steps to the goals. Do them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you like 'bar people?' I don't so might not be where you find someone you like. I usually don't talk much either, but when you do, show some sort of passion. Girls like you to listen, so listen and ask them stuff they wanna talk about. Don't ever try to fill in the 'silence void', you seem needy if you do.
You get over it, in whatever way you can. Be happy for them and smile maybe?
Haha same here, I am mad at my parents, because I feel like a kid in a man's body (like those super robot shows). What I advise is for you to think of a nice expresson (its Chinese, so not sure how well it translates) "well intentioned, but does bad/hurtful things". You change that by doing stuff you like that is also social.

Don't get addicted to self-help books, I do that haha. Getting a girlfriend will require you find a girl that you find attractive and who also will love you. Work is work? PM me if you wanna talk!

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Sedditor

I think I can help here.

Being good at small-talk isn't being able to keep up a boring conversation. It is coming up with interesting things to talk about that most people relate to, on the spot. Most people have interesting thoughts in their mind, but have a problem with articulating them, or keeping their mind focused on the interesting stuff. Instead the brain start to "meta-think" for you. Which fucks up your conversational skills.

"What I think is stupid."

"He/She probably knows more than me anyway."

"Is she looking at my hair? Is it ugly?"

"Damn...that foodspot on my t-shirt is showing..I know it."

"Damn...she is hot."

"Does my voice sound wierd?"

"Does she know I am nervous?"

The trick is self-discipline, and control of thought. You need to remove these thoughts from your mind in those situations. You need to fill your head with positive thoughts. Whatever positive thing you have got to think about. This takes practice. One exercise is to mentally switch yourself from horny, to not horny. For example, think about having sex with a beautiful girl. Get horny after a while. Switch over to something non-sexy and remove that horniness. Switch back. It's tough, I know. But practice makes perfect. Some people suggest meditation is a good way. I don't personally meditate.

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Influence was decent I guess. I took a class on persuasion (or something like that) and that was one of our books.

David Burns is basically what you're talking about- he's got Intimate Connections and some other book. He's basically a psychologist who focuses on socializing/relationship-type stuff.

Eckhart Tolle gets mentioned a lot, I can't think of his books right now but you can look him up.

Just go to Barnes and Noble (or do some google searches) and find self-help shit. A lot of it's gonna be similar (if not the exact same) to inner game stuff. Then some of it will be more focused on dating/relationships. If you like to download shit, go to the top posts all-time and scroll till you find a post called "Seduction Material" or something like that. It'll have a lot of links. What also might be there (or not, I dunno, but you can find it if you look around) is a link that lets you download something like 350 pdfs all about seduction/self-help shit. Not that I support that of course, but it's available if you look around.

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[–]RyanFuller0031 points 14 years ago* [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

Positive self talk. It sounds cheesy, but saying "I'm the baddest dude here." and trying to believe it helps.

That's exactly why it's hard for a lot of foreveraloners to take advice on here. That sounds worse than cheesy, it sounds empty and pathetic. For me, I mean. I don't want to be a dick--if it works for you, keep doing your thing--but I'd feel fucking ridiculous doing that.

Get your ass in the gym. Working out 3x a week not only helps you externally look better, but it releases endorphins and other brain chemicals that help you feel better about yourself.

I used to work out regularly at home, not the gym. I guess I probably worked out two of every three days for about three years. It went okay. I got in pretty good shape, but then I hurt my back and had to take a few weeks off, and just never got back into it. That was about a year ago. Over the whole course of this period of time, I still never had a girlfriend (though I did get laid a few times, which effectively doesn't matter since I'm still single and lonely anyway). TL;DR this is great advice, but after three years of working out and then giving up on it, it's just really hard to muster the motivation to get back into it. I still have the weights, at least.

Focus on improvement. Take 5 minutes 1 day a week and physically write down one thing you want to accomplish in the next week. Then go do it. Celebrate your victories only after you've achieved your goals.

Basically the same thing here as in your first point . . . it feels silly.

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I'm 28 and I broke the spell it had on me 2 years ago. Don't be afraid of change. It can be done, and it's relatively easy. Martin Seligman's book Learned Optimism highlights how to challenge your thoughts really clearly and stop yourself ruminating on things. When you change that thought process it becomes much easier to do, rather than worry and not do. All the literature in Seddit does pretty much the same thing, they build confidence and belief to let you tackle the world head on with no fear of interaction.

The result of my change was that one year on from the worst Xmas I ever had I managed to meet a girl in a foreign country, without speaking the language, and she's now a really close friend. It is quite simply the most astonishing night I think I'll ever have and it started from just walking up to three girls and asking them if I could take their picture for them, while out on NYE with my mum and stepdad. Two days later I went back to my family (we were all staying at my bro's place) feeling incredible. So change is possible, I'm constantly self-improving and learning from life.

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sedditor

Confidence is about power, and anyone who isn't confident doesn't appreciate the power they have in interactions with other people.

Your power, mine, and anyone's is derived by what you stand to gain and what you stand to lose. All you stand to lose is momentary disappointment or, at worst, mild embarassment. What you stand to gain is a feeling of unmatched triumph, sex with a beautiful woman, a LTR if you want one, etc.

The advantage is YOURS, the approacher. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose. You can do whatever you want and if it doesn't work, you're none the worse. Use that power. Be confident.

You're going to die someday, it's a given, so in the meantime why be afraid of anything? No one can do anything to you that is worse than what you can do to yourself, what you ARE doing to yourself, i.e. not living.

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Yeah, that's why it should be "Be your best self." I probably wouldn't leave my house either if I was just being "myself." But Satan knows my best self isn't gonna be satisfied with that. My best self is gonna take care of some laundry, maybe work out a bit, maybe go out later if people are doing shit, whatever. You don't always need to have that attitude, but it's definitely a good thing to strive for.

Likewise, when you see a girl, what would your best self do? Hopefully he'd go talk to her. Hopefully he'd be feeling pretty confident, dressed in decent clothes, smelling good and shit. Then he'd carry on an awesome conversation (he's the best version of you), then he'd get her number because he's a boss. You don't necessarily need to change yourself to become that guy, but there's probably some things you need to improve (mainly the mindset itself).

I started having real success with girls at the start of college by adopting a similar mindset (though instead of the "best self" shit, I thought of myself as Brad Pitt. I just asked myself how Brad Pitt would handle various things, and then I did those things. I'd also think to myself "How would I usually handle this?" and then just do the opposite of that).

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Newbie Sedditor

I think that's exactly why the seduction community has created all these books and websites and blogs and videos. To explain to you how to fake confidence.

Even if you don't feel good about yourself inside, you can practice standing the way confident people stand, speaking with the kind of vocal tone and speed and rhythm that confident people use, touching people the way confident people do, saying the kinds of things confident people say.

At least, that's what I've been finding helps with me. I never had any idea what to do when people told me, "Just talk to girls, and pretend to be confident." But when they told me, "Don't slouch, don't lean in, speak more slowly, don't buy her a drink unless she buys yours in return," and so on... well, I'm still practicing to get the habits ingrained, but when I get it right I appear much more confident. And gradually, as I start to see better and better reactions from girls, the confidence has been becoming real.

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I think there's a line between "doing" and "being" and if you "do" something enough, eventually it becomes part of your day to day "being". It ceases to be an option because it's become part of who you are - and pushing OUT of your comfort zone is a huge part of that. Make mistakes, be ok with failing, learn from it, go from there. Once upon a time I couldn't stand in front of a crowd and say 5 words, much less speak to random people that I wasn't introduced to by others.

Start small - if you see a cute cashier at a store - get in her line. Give her a smile and ask how her day is going. Eye contact, don't go eye-fishing looking at the groceries or your wallet. Don't stare and drool.

Was standing outdoors in a line for a Bolt-bus back to my home state a couple of weekends ago, casually chatting with a woman while standing in line (we were both an hour or so early so we were at the front of the line). Small talk, general chatter, started out asking her about the book she was reading. The line behind us got longer and longer, and out of no where, this guy walks up and plops his bags down in front of us.
I was annoyed, she was annoyed but the dude just stood there like he just claimed the land in the name of the king of spain or something.

I kept on saying to myself "say something" for about 10 minutes and realized that the same confidence I have in talking to women that I'd built up now could be applied to this situation. "Hey, are you REALLY comfortable parking yourself in front of people who've been waiting in line for hours?" The guy picked up his bag and walked to the back of the line. The girl smiled, I smiled, we sat on the bus talking until she hit her transfer. Got a number and email address.
NEITHER of these things would have happened if I hadn't spent time practicing small and escalating my willingness to be rejected (and be FINE with it) and overall pushing of my boundaries of comfort. It's been a process, and I've had a few GREAT successes, and more than a few great fails (and one work in progress, tbd, weird thing).

hope some of that made sense...

[–]Newbie_Sedditor 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Newbie Sedditor

I'm just starting to get into all this stuff, but already I'm finding my confidence skyrocketing because now I have clear instructions on what to do.

My whole life I've been told, "Just be yourself." So I was puttering along, living my life, just being myself, and not getting girls.

Then I found the seduction community, who told me, "Girls want a guy with qualities A, B, and C. To demonstrate those qualities, you can do X, Y, and Z."

And suddenly my failure with women was no longer because there was something wrong with the myself that I was just being. It was just because I hadn't learned the material yet. There were ideas I needed to learn, skills I needed to practice, habits I needed to change. That's all.

I'm still not all that good at this stuff yet. But now there's a clear path to follow.

[–]nostalgicBadger 12 points13 points14 points 14 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

The clearest plan I can offer you for becoming more confident is called "rejection therapy". What cripples most people's confidence is the fear of rejection, so the first step is to get over that.

Next time you're out at a bar and you see a cute girl, approach her. Don't put too much stock in the outcome. If you get a number, great, but don't worry if not, because that isn't the point; just approach and make the effort. You might get rejected. That's fine. Next time you're out, do the same thing again.

You don't have to limit this to approach women either. You can do it with anything. Next time you're negotiating with someone, ask for more than you expect to get. Ask your boss for a raise. Put yourself in positions where you might get turned down. And you will. A lot. But the funny thing is, sometimes you won't; you might be surprised what you can get just by asking.

The important part is that, after a while, you'll get used to rejection, and you'll realize there's nothing to be afraid of. When you reach that point, the world is yours.

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Here's the thing though: How many times have you even been rejected? I bet it's no more than 50. That's not even remotely close to the amount of times I've been rejected. Exposure and experience will lead to more confidence, no matter how "shitty" you do. Not only that, but not every conversation will consist of a girl blowing you off or making fun of you or some shit. Especially if you approach during the day, social standards kinda dictate that the girl can't really be a bitch to you. So if she rejects you, it's usually gonna be a more friendly rejection.

On top of that though, you don't have to try to "pick her up" in the first place. You can just say Hi and then bail. Or you can just try to have a normal conversation (even some smalltalk is better than nothing). Then you won't really get "rejected" in the first place, and it'll hopefully build some confidence because you successfully approached and had a decent conversation.

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I'm not a Sedditor (like browsing here for self improvement stuff, have introduced my partner to it too), but I need to comment on this, as it's something I've been taught personally, used myself A LOT, and helped my clients with as a trainer.

Confidence isn't a lack of giving a fuck in the outcome, but using that in the initial stages can help to BUILD confidence. You just have to adjust your definition of success in those early days, and keep progressively building. For instance, with approaching girls, your success should be approaching and interacting; or aim for a certain length of conversation when you get past that, even if it's aiming to go any further, and then build and build and build. If you find it REALLY tough in the early stages, collect rejections, make success JUST the approach, and try and get as many rejections in a certain amount of time.

I used this shit a LOT when I first got into my career for the sake of sales. When you're doing cold approaches, or cold calls, its useful to redefine success as you build up your skills.

TL;DR: Change your idea of success; make your GOAL the approach, and then gain confidence through progressive increases in difficulty.

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[–]theawesomeone 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Seddittor.

Original game was basically catered towards allowing low confident men to achieve success by mimicing the personality of confident men. Go up to her, have this body language, ask this question, tell this back handed compliment, transition to c2 comfort building, etc.

Most of us will cringe when we imagine ourselves doing this when we started out, but guess what. It worked and the more girls we were having success with, the more confident we became. Then we realized that confidence is all that's needed. However, this means nothing to a f.a. guy.

Building confidence is something you work on. Go to the gym and care about how you look. Practice eye contact with people you talk to. Work on your posture and vocal tonality. Practice starting conversations with people. Generally work on improving your social life, even if it means putting down the video games for a while.

I remember going to a Target store with my friend and just saying bye have a nice day to everyone leaving. Some people were nice, some people confused, and some just flat out ignored us. Approaching a girl was the same thing. Like learning anything, the better you get, the more confident you become.

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It's all about not giving a fuck. It's confidence in the pointlessness and lack of value of other's judgement of you. Aside from a small group of permanent and important people in your life(family, boss, close friends), nobody else fucking matters. If I were to judge you right now and insult you by calling you weak or pathetic, it has no effect on your life as soon as my face were to disappear. Any semblance of my actions will cease to exist as soon as the moment is over.

Confidence exists in owning this concept.

Now, right... you might understand and even believe me when I say this to you. But, until you completely internalize this and make this faith, you will lack confidence.

The fear of this type of awkward and uncomfortable interaction exists because ancient humans lived in small groups. So behavior that damaged your reputation caused you to be outcasted and ruined your chance of passing on your genetics. Nowadays, fear of embarrassment does nothing but hurt you; it's a side effect of ancient civilization and evolution's incapability to keep up with the times. You need to realize that for a modern man, lacking social confidence is completely irrational and has no real reason for existence, the more logical situation is reckless abandon.

Just to exemplify. This weekend I went clubbing. I was with a girl and tried to kiss her or something, evidently I went to far and got the shit slapped out of me(I was kinda drunk, don't particularly remember). About 20 people were laughing at me and it was a kinda big scene. Fuck it, I walked away. About 20 minutes later I was making out with another girl. The fact that I was the laughing stalk of the entire facility at one point yielded no negative effect to me even a few minutes later. My complete confidence in the situation let me pick up another girl without hesitation.

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Sedditor

Lack of confidence comes from being put down by others and not knowing why... For example you are with friends or co-workers, and you tell a joke, but u are too nervous about if they will like the joke so that makes you suck in the delivery of the joke... Your brain tries to save you the humiliation and doesn't let you tell another joke again......

The moment you understand that you sucked at the delivery of the joke BECAUSE, you were to nervous not because you suck.... you can start working on it ....

So what you do is, you face what you fear.... So that your brain gets used to it and says "hey, I screwed up this time but it is ok"....

That is where confidence comes from.... If you don't have reference experiences, you would be afraid of the outcome. If you understand the outcome, you will feel confident in the action....

In terms if pick up.... You know that in the past month you have approached ( lets be conservative and say 10 women)... 2 Blew you off completely and it sucked.... But the other 8 were quite friendly and 1 of them was even very hot and you made out with her... Next time you go out and decide to approach a lets say a girl that is a 7 on pretty scale, you will feel confident because your mind will be like: This is going to go great because she is just a 7 and last week i made out with a 9, so there is no way a 7 is crazy enought to blow me off......

In my opinion that is the key to confidence.

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I read a lot of both seddit and FA.

I used to be really hateful and angry towards all the PUA stuff. And honestly, I still hate a lot of it. I have a strong dislike for those techniques that involve quantifying various "phases" of the attraction process and focus on manipulating women's emotions and reactions in order to get them to like you (such as preying on insecurities).

This is not the whole story.

A lot of what I've seen on seddit is some truly great advice. Things like working on self-confidence, getting in shape, looking good, getting over fears and anxieties, advice on how to relate/talk to people, how to pick up on social cues. How to deal with rejection, how to not take it personally if a girl is not interested in you.

The things I've taken away from seddit are pretty much summed up at this: Work on feeling good about yourself and improving yourself, be positive, learn how to positively interact with people, and learn about how to attract women by getting experience interacting with them.

How could anyone say these things are douchery?

[–]punisher1005 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

I hear you on the "preying on insecurities" thing. But I have a retort for you. Occasionally you run into situations in life where things are not black and white. You can still have good intentions, for example, wanting to have a great relationship with a girl, be it sexual or friendship. But not always be angel in every interaction.

Here is a comparison that you might be of some value to you. Let's say you want a delicious chicken sandwich. Well to get a chicken sandwich you get some bread, you get some lettuce and tomatoes and some dressing. Well, unfortunately to make a chicken sandwich (a noble cause some might say) you have to chop a chicken's head off and cut the little guy into pieces.

I think most reasonable people would say that this one indignity is worth the cost. Though, some might not and choose to abstain from chicken sandwich eating and see it as reprehensible. Both are valid viewpoints and I wouldn't say one is better than the other.

Do you feel like an evil asshole when you eat your chicken sandwich or do you feel like it was worth the cost?

Do you feel like "preying on insecurity" as a means to an end of having a great relationship with some girl is worth the cost?

For me the answer is "absolutely", for others, maybe not.

[–]Xein 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]IFDRizz 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Let me first start off by saying I am NOT a SEDDITOR per se...I am a guy who was lucky enough to be your typical "natural game" kinda guy. The perceived Alpha Male (College athlete, firefighter, yadda yadda), but was blown away years ago when I read "the Game" and realized others knew (and had even identified and labeled, and broken down in amazing depth) how laws of attraction work. You see, I am extremely analytical and observant, and had been intrigued by buddies of mine who did very well with the ladies, yet weren't really what I would have considered super attractive....and when I read that book it gave names to things I had been witnessing for years from my buddies. Ever since then I have frequented sites like this from time to time because it is choked full of useful information. With all that said, let me clear up what....at least in my opinion (and again, I am no technical expert) what I think are some misconceptions.

-First of all, it IS a game. We (the sexes) have different rules. Whenever a chic tells me "God, I hate all the games you men play" I always respond with, "well then take off your make-up that you are using to highlight the attractive features of your face while at the same time hide the flaws...stop wearing the padded push-up bra that misrepresents your actual breast size...take off the high heels that make you taller than you are and your legs appear sexier..etc etc". I think you get my point. They are playing the same game of attraction, but they are using weapons that work for them to attract us. The difference is, is they are taught how to use these weapons from an early age by their moms. Do we consider this manipulative when it comes to them catching our attention? No...so why is it manipulative if I can portray myself to her in a more attractive lite? (assuming you arent lying).

-It isnt "tricking" a girl into having sex with you. I think this is the big perception about PUA. There is no voodoo magic being cast that instantly make a girl wet and her panties fall off. Basically it's about making yourself attractive to the opposite sex, and then helpful hints for different stages along the way so you don't fuck things up.

"What are some things that could be perceived as manipulative or malicious that are viable strategies for getting the girl?" The word malicious bothers me. There is no need to be malicious. Even if all you are after is just sex. You see...big secret here....women WANT TO HAVE SEX TOO. I get asked all the time how I stay friends, or cool with girls I have had sex with. Its really fucking easy. DO NOT LIE, DECEIVE, or manipulate girls into sex. If all I am after is a sexual relationship with a girl, then I am going to tell her that. You would be surprised at the number of girls who are perfectly ok with this. Unfortunately society has a huge double standard when it comes to casual sex, so most girls need to keep it on the down-low.

hope I helped...got side tracked midway cause a girl came over lol

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Mystery would've called it teasing if that's what he meant by it. The "Nice nails, are they real?" line isn't meant to be said as a joke. If it was, it'd be teasing, and he wouldn't have called it negging.

Though I think even Mystery himself backtracked on that after so many people thought it was a shitty thing to do, and people started referring to it as "disqualification"- not only a different term, but it's neither teasing nor negging- it's basically like if you blow your nose in front of a girl, you're showing her that you're not trying to impress her (same sort of psychological impact as a neg, but doesn't involve you saying something "mean" to the girl). Another example is the "You're like my little sister" line- it's an innocent line that shouldn't offend her, but at the same time she's wondering whether the hell you're actually interested or not.

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[–]marco161091 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

I used to be really hateful and angry towards all the PUA stuff. And honestly, I still hate a lot of it. I have a strong dislike for those techniques that involve quantifying various "phases" of the attraction process and focus on manipulating women's emotions and reactions in order to get them to like you (such as preying on insecurities).

I can understand where that comes from. What one needs to understand is that all the PUA theory didn't come up with all these "phases". They were always there. If one were to observe a person who was naturally good with women, you'd notice that almost all of the phases are covered. What PUA theory really did was tabulate all these.

Here's an analogy. If I were to ask you to multiply 25 and 50, you'd probably immediately tell me the answer is 1250. How do you know this? Well, you probably know 5 times 25 is 125 and 10 times 125 is 1250. Okay, but how do you know 5 times 25 is 125? Or that 10 times 125 is 1250. Well, you probably know the multiplication table of 25 and 10. But then how do you know this? You learned it. Alright, but how was it derived? Well adding 25 five times would give us the 5th number in 25's multiplication table. Okay, but how do you add two numbers. And so on and so forth.

If you were to ask a kid who only knows addition to multiply 25 and 50, he'd be clueless. However, explaining him everything step by step would give him the answer as well as the tools to do so with other numbers.

That's pretty much what PUA theory is, in a nutshell. Of course, there are a few things in PUA that a lot of sedditors and practitioners disagree with. Well, that's discretion isn't it. Is nuclear science bad because it resulted in the creation of nuclear explosives?

There is a huge stigma attached to the art of seduction. Is it because the whole thing is bad? No, it's because there are a few people out there that give it a bad name. They're even in the minority (I speak this from personal experience). It's just that the word "pick up" generates the image of a playboy going around getting girls into bed and then breaking their hearts. Why is such an image generated? Mostly because there ARE people out there who do it. They might not necessarily have even studied pick up theory. Not to mention, the social media has also generated a bad image of "playboys".

On the other side of the spectrum, the people who are good with girls and don't play with girls' emotions are never really even called "playboys". Just awesome guys who are good with girls.

Maybe this perspective will give you an idea why you have a bad image of pick up.

It's good to hear though that you've learned some good things from this place. Stay awesome. :)

[–]30vanquish 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TehRoot 12 points13 points14 points 14 years ago* (78 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ARealSocialRetard 17 points18 points19 points 14 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

I have a FA friend who says that he's read some of the PUA literature and he still doesn't understand HOW it works. I've tried to explain a lot of the premises behind it all, and he simply refuses to admit that it could work, even though he's never tried any of it and I have personal experience that directly contradicts his notions that it couldn't possibly be successful.

To take it from another perspective: I read a book several years ago about managing finances called The Wealthy Barber. In it was probably the single best piece of financial advice I've ever read anywhere, and it goes like this:

Don't ever take financial advice from people who have no money.

We've all done it. We hear advice from people on all sides, and in the end, we want to follow that advice which sits closest to our own way of thinking. But the fact of the matter is that if you're poor, or if you're a Forever Alone, why would you take advice that fits your own perspectives? What you need to be doing is finding the advice that is totally antithetical to what you already believe—because what you've been doing up to this point has already proven to be a failure.

Can FAs relate to PUAs? Perhaps, perhaps not. But I will say that a lot of PUAs—myself included, though I wouldn't really consider myself at the level of a PUA—can absolutely relate to FAs, because we were there once, too. The real question is: Can FAs set aside their preconceptions long enough to realize that even though the advice they get from PUAs sounds crazy, it just might work?

[–]TehRoot 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

[–]ARealSocialRetard 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I could change myself and follow this 'PUA' literature, but I'm at the point where I've got a lifestyle that I've become comfortable with, and developed a whole identity with it, that I have personal fears of losing myself

I think that this is another fallacy that's related to PUA literature. A lot of guys look at stuff like The Game and The Mystery Method and think "Man, there's a lot of manipulation involved here," or perhaps "This all seems so FAKE." And guess what?

I agree with that. It IS fake, and while there is a lot of value in reading and comprehending the old-school stuff like The Game, it really doesn't apply anymore. For one thing, a lot of women see the gambits that Mystery teaches and know what they are, so they aren't as useful as they used to be,¹ and for another, it's just outdated.

Pickup today is a whole different beast. It's more about being yourself than it ever has been. The difference is that instead of saying "just be yourself, and things will work out," we tell you to "be the best version of yourself that you can be." That means that you strive to become a better person every day, and the more you do it, the more you'll feel better about yourself, and as that happens, you'll realize that you are an awesome fucking person and other people want to be around you and spend time with you.

Do you have any idea how attractive that attitude is in a person?

¹ That's not to say, though, that they're completely useless. I've actually had conversations with women, TOLD them that I was going to use a pickup game on them, and even though they knew it was coming, it STILL worked on them. What it boils down to is this: once you get them in the right mindset to be receptive to what you're saying to them, they want you to succeed. Of course they want you to succeed—they're always hoping that the next guy they talk to is the one who sweeps them off their feet.

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I think of it as the Game Theory definition of a game (of course it's easier if you have studied Game Theory): a "game" is a series of interactions among the lines of a set of rules between players with different strategies who try to maximize their payoffs. Game theory considers every interaction as a game - diplomacy, society, etc..., so the "game" can naturally be examined as a game in Game Theory:

Players: you, the "target" (the girl), the "obstacles" (the girl's friends), the wingmen (your friends).
Interaction: normal social interaction
Rules: basically the rules of normal social interaction
Payoffs: now this is where things get complicated. Positive payoff for you is having fun and possibly fucking a hot girl. Positive payoff for said hot (and single) girl isn't fucking the best looking guy, neither is remaining celibate for the night. Positive payoff for them is having fun and possibly being fucked by a guy they are attracted to. Which, while includes, doesn't mean looks. Positive payoff for the "obstacles" (who are frequently uglier girls) is getting some of the attention their hotter friend receives, which also means they want her to remain with them. Positive payoff for your wingmen should be you getting laid. However, for girls there are negative payoffs: they could be perceived as sluts if they give in too easily and they don't want to have quick and boring sex with a loser who managed to fool them into thinking that he is actually a man.
Strategies: this is what you find here. You know, girls start applying their strategy before you even have any interaction with them - they apply makeup, put out, stay fit, etc... to get the attention of the potential mates. They raise the "bitch shields" to repel the first wave of losers, then use "shit tests" to filter out the losers who got through the shields, play hard-to-get so neither their friends, nor you would think that she is a slut, etc...

With terms of Game Theory, "game" would be a

hybrid (neither cooperative, nor non-cooperative),
asymmetric (the same strategy yields different results for men and women),
non-zero-sum (you either go home alone, in which case you leave with the same value as you arrived with, or go home with a girl, in which case you both leave with more than you arrived with),
perfect information (you remember your interaction with the girl),
incomplete information (you don't know all of the strategies, neither the payoffs and even some rules change; the girl doesn't know your true value),
combinatorial (the difficulty in finding an optimal strategy lies in the multiplicity of possible moves),
finite (you can't drag the conversation with a girl forever),
continuous (the strategies are a part of a continuum and you are free to choose from anywhere in the continuum, you aren't restricted to these strategies),
stochastic (random chance has a great role)

game.

As you can imagine, this is a hard game to solve mathematically (this is why we shouldn't worry about dating robots taking our places for a while). Here you'll find mostly strategies to make that incomplete get closer to complete and to extend the continuum of possible strategies (this is outer game) and ways to improve yourself in order to provide a higher payoff for the girl and extend the continuum of possible strategies - without confidence, most of the strategies described here are hard to pull off (this is inner game and /r/fitness, /r/malefashionadvice, etc...).

Of course this makes it look even more impersonal, but the point was that a game isn't necessarily something trivial and it's not about beating others. This specific game is about giving and receiving value - in human terms, having fun.

[–]asoap 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

sedditor

You used one of my trigger words, identity.

Personally I believe that a person's identity be destroyed. I think it's a limiting factor. Your identity is an image in your head that you've constructed of yourself. It's not who you are, it's just who you think you are.

If you destroy it, it sets you free to be many more things. You can swap off the FA hat for another one. Right now I'm in FA mode because I choose to be. I'm spending all of my free time working on a project to improve my business and get my life in order. I've sworn off of women. But the nice part is that I've made this choice on my own merit. It's not being forced upon myself, by myself.

The biggest words of advice I can give is to go out and enjoy life. Don't worry about anything really. Just have fun. Take an interest in everybody and everything.

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[–]asoap1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ahh crap. You edited it before I could say "What do you mean you people!?!?" Sigh. I love that joke.

I'm going to assume you mean, why do we do PUA?

For me. When I was 25 I was in a weird spot. I got fired from my job, started my own business and was in a lawsuit and suffering from anxiety attacks. I was a typical FA type of guy. But decided that if I wanted my business to succeed and myself as well I need to improve EVERYTHING in my life.

I was never good with woman, and suffered from a speech impediment for most of my life. The speech is still a bit of an issue. But for business you need to sell yourself, people aren't really buying your product, they are buying you. It's the same thing with women. So I figured that if I can sell myself to women, I can sell myself as a business.

After getting into this stuff, I learned so much that changed my life. I stick around in here because I notice myself still screwing up with women and I need a reminder every once and a while not to do stupid things.

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[–]osufan765 17 points18 points19 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

Buddy, I can relate to you more than you could ever imagine.

I'm 21, still a virgin, and have only kissed one woman (fortunately for me, it was that girl, I know you know who I'm talking about). When I was in high school, I was 6'3, 250 lbs. I didn't have any friends, and would rush home so I could sit down and play WoW and hop on vent with people who understood me.

In a very serendipitous fashion, I stumbled on Seddit. I was like a lot of people from r/ForeverAlone, thinking that it was all bullshit, cheesy, and false information. How could these assholes objectify women like that?

... And then I started reading. I still didn't buy in completely, and still don't. I read the material, internalize it, look at myself as a person and who I strive to be and the personal values I hold true, and apply what I've read in a way that jives with who I am.

One day, I just got fed up with not talking to anyone. My friends have all graduated and have big boy jobs now, but I'm still in class, and slaving away on weekends serving tables. My social circle vanished on me and I was left stranded. I hadn't met anyone that I considered a good friend in years. I just decided to say hi to people. We're all interesting and have our own stories. I still get nervous when I strike up a conversation, but that fades away quickly after you're conversing.

I know SWTOR is big right now, so we'll use some Star Wars analogies. Pickup is like The Force. It's there, it exists, and you can use it for the powers of good and be a rad, moral Jedi, or you can use it to manipulate people and be a total douchebag Sith.

(By the way, I've lost 55 lbs and I'm down to a slim 195.)

[–]TehRoot 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]osufan765 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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Sedditor

I don't think it is a case of blocking out, I think it is a case that we made the decision to not be FA and to instead do something about it. And we know how much happiness and confidence came about due to that choice.

My biggest "problem" with FA is that the only barrier is yourself, so many guys don't want to just make that choice to choose happiness, when instead they choose to be bitter and hating others because of it.

They choose to have self-defeating attitudes and beliefs that do nothing but make themselves unhappy, and swat away anyone that offers help or a way out.

We, as sedditors, know that it isn't an impossible thing to completely turn around FA into someone successful with women and who is confident. It takes 6months - 2years or so. We've seen this over and over. It is fact for us. We have a hard time listening to reasons that "oh my life will never change" or "it is just impossible for people to be interested in me" when we know it isn't true, and even if it were we think you should at least try.

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I can't expect much of a change? Really? Then people should stop giving that advice. People come into FA all the time and assume that we're all fat neckbeards who dress in fedoras and tshirts and tell us "lose weight, dress well, you'll get some attention."

Obviously that isn't the case.

"Put yourself out there" I have been. Still no results.

The alcohol is exclusively for me. I don't care about what other people think I'm drinking. Alcohol helps me relax. It tastes like shit, and there's a chance it comes back to bite me, but it feels good being a little buzzed.

even though I haven't put anything I've learnt from it in to practice yet

Then how can you even claim to be a sedditor? "I've read all the books there are on how to play the piano. I'm a pianist." People would rightfully laugh at you.

[–]Sicklad 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]marco161091 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

I think at an average, most Sedditors would relate a lot to FA's. I personally was lucky enough but there are so many people I know who came to Seddit when they had noone.

FA's generally can't relate to Seddit because of the stigma attached to the whole thing as well as (dare I say it) their own problems. A lot of FA's I know generally have this outlook where they blame everything on the world around them while here in Seddit, people are encouraged to understand that there is nothing the world around does to us. Everything is upto us.

There is a huge stigma attached to the art of seduction. Is it because the whole thing is bad? No, it's because there are a few people out there that give it a bad name. They're even in the minority (I speak this from personal experience). It's just that the word "pick up" generates the image of a playboy going around getting girls into bed and then breaking their hearts. Why is such an image generated? Mostly because there ARE people out there who do it. They might not necessarily have even studied pick up theory. Not to mention, the social media has also generated a bad image of "playboys".

On the other side of the spectrum, the people who are good with girls and don't play with girls' emotions are never really even called "playboys". Just awesome guys who are good with girls.

Maybe this perspective will give you an idea why you have a bad image of pick up.

I could be a bit ignorant about r/fa of course. I've only ever gone there twice or thrice. My general opinion of most of the people there has been that they are essentially good people who took a few bad turns in life and have lost their way.

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This line of thinking rapidly turns into the vapid philosophical stance of 'No-one can be altruistic because they do those acts out of selfishness'. It's intellectually boring.

You don't have to be Mother Teresa to be happy. An asshole can be happy. osufan765 is not coming across as an asshole or a douchebag, he was just honest.

Does your happiness have to be predicated on no-one else in the entire world suffering? That seems an extremely hard way to approach life. If it bothers you, help fix it. And not by clicking some internet petition, by real world work. If you feel that way, go volunteer. It's a way to meet people and do something good at the same time!

But don't call people douchebags just because they don't constantly obsess about poverty or disease or whatever you cryptically meant. Most people don't obsess about those things because they can't do much about them.

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[–]asoap1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ahh. Well first off. If you're thinking about doing yourself in, get into /r/suicidewatch (I think that's the subreddit) before you do anything stupid.

Excuse me for being an arm chair shrink. But have you looked into getting professional help? If you can afford to live a lone, maybe you can afford a shrink? It might help you out. But I'd recommend trying out a few until you find one that you like.

Also, You're not the first person in the world to feel this way. I'm sure there are many others that feel this way also.

I recommend this book. The power of now. It takes an open mind to read it, as some people can get turned away from it because he uses religions as an example. But it's a really good read that helped me out. It's not a religious book, as it made me MORE agnostic. But it's something that requires a bit of reading and then some reflection. It might help you out.

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/1577314808/?tag=googcana-20&hvadid=7291456523&ref=pd_sl_76ev4dzeyd_b

[–]AnxietyMan1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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How about this: lets accept for the hell of it that I'm an asshole. I manipulate women to have sex with me, use them, lie to them yadda yadda yaddda. I'm willing to accept all of that as who I am.

How about, however, we go out to the bar, I'll buy you some drinks, and you can make a personal judgement on that. You can see a sedditor in action and make an informed decision. What do you have to lose? You said you're lonely and could use some personal interaction anyway, and I'll show you a good night out on me.

If your anxiety gets bad or you decide you just can't stand anymore of me, you can bail whenever you want. But maybe you'll actually have a good time and find out that I'm not as much of an asshole as I may appear to be on the internet, you got nothing to lose by taking the chance.

[–]AnxietyMan2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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It took me a bit of time for my real thoughts to bubble up to the surface on this, to figure out what bugged me about this attitude.

I believe you are just scared of failure and real effort.

It is easy to sacrifice yourself and give things away, because there is no real chance at failure. Instead of trying and possibly failing at something, you'd rather just run into a burning building or suffer because you think no one can come along and say "He should have done more", because you think sacrificing things negates your personal responsibility to be a contributing member of society.

What I do matters in this life. Hard work counts. To play this sacrifice card says it doesn't matter, it says that some guy who's life was so shitty he didn't might sacrificing it to save someone else is somehow worth more than someone who created 5,000 jobs, revolutionized medicine or promoted democracy because he did it for selfish reasons.

To say you would rather sacrifice yourself than achieve these other things is saying that your life doesn't matter, it absolves you of the risk of failing. It is literally choosing death over life.

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[–]MonkeySteriods 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

My advice is a bit different from Dutch, and osu. There are two different types of approaches. Theres a warm approach and theres a cold approach.

Warm approach is similar to meeting new people through friends or a related event. Lets say an intro to college "ice breaker" [Meetup, etc]

A cold approach is when you meet someone completely unrelated to you. This is typically at a club [the worst], bar, or on the street.

Warm approaches are simpler, more likely to be successful, and are less stressful. If you want to do slightly better or the same where you are go for only warm approaches. If you want to break the whole FA deal, go for cold approaches, until things start clicking. Also, with warm approaches people are less likely to reject you right out. [This is VERY bad when you don't know where your flaws are] Also, cold approaches teaches you that rejections are better than missed attempts. Its harder to be friendzoned when you're blown out immediently.

Right now I'm pretty much in a warm approach mode, but if I hadn't started out with cold then I would have never learned some of the mistakes. But, then again I'm building up more of an entourage. [Which will go and do cold approaches]

EDIT: Also, cold approaches give you really amusing stories to tell later. I've seen some really screwy behavior in clubs mostly by girls, and some by guys.

[–]themauvestorm3 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]osufan765 -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

What age are you?

You're definitely taking a step in the right direction by looking into hobbies that you find interesting. Believe it or not, I didn't really have any friends until I started attending a local LAN party back when I was 14. All of my really close friends I've met from there, and it was really easy to form those friendships because of the mutual enjoyment we have of PC gaming.

You just have to be willing to put yourself out there. Something about being in an area where I knew I shared a common bond with everyone involved really made me come out of my shell. When I was in school or out and about, I was super reserved and quiet, but there, I felt invincible. We were all there for two reasons: to play video games and yell at each other.

Find something where you're comfortable. Don't do something you're not interested in because you think it will help you meet people, because you'll just fall into the same rut you're in. If you find something you truly like doing and enjoy, it gives you something to talk about and you'll feel comfortable talking about it.

And always remember, the best opening you can have with someone is "Hi, my name is..."

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Sedditor

If you really enjoy music, go to concerts. That's a guaranteed commonality right there, which is a whole lot easier than cold approaching when you have to search for commonalities.

If you know how to play an instrument, you can get involved in a band or an orchestra, or volunteer your time to teach kids. You'll meet other volunteers that way, plus it scores you huge bonus points when you're telling people what you do in your free time.

If you like video games, then you probably like card games and table top games. I know around here, there are a few local places that have M:TG tournaments and such. If you have a small social circle, you have to start small, and that's making acquaintances with people. Eventually they turn into friends and you can get involved in what they're interested in, meet more people, and increase social circle exponentially.

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Dude, at my lair there is a dude who's 42 and seriously balding. We had a lair meeting yesterday. He got a number from a hottie (25ish, maybe a bit more) I saw him open 3 days before when we went out. Yesterday he shows me the conversation. He applied the concepts of text-game beautifully and last message from her was, and I quote: 'Do we have to keep texting into oblivion or will you ask me out anytime soon?" He's never been married, started showing up for meetings 3 months ago.

Yes, I don't know how it is to be 30+ and FA. But I will never know cause I've taken charge of my life.

It is all in your head and if you say otherwise I will tell you you are full of shit. Sorry brah. I wish you best of luck. Breaking your mindset (made even worse by FA conditioning) is going to be your hardest part. Pickup is easy compared to that. Good luck.

[–]AnxietyMan-5 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]marco161091 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

Once you get your first kiss, you'll realize it's really not as big as you made it out to be. It's probably going to suck but that's okay. You weren't born doing maths and you're probably not half bad it now.

As for tips.

Before going for the kiss, get physically intimate. Stand closer to the girls, maybe put your arms around her. Make her comfortable. A lot of girls will reject a kiss not because they don't want it but because you surprised them.
Don't stick in your tongue immediately. Lightly massage her lips with your own. After 2-3 seconds pull back. Maybe give another peck. After that lightly lick her lips with your tongue. See if she's fine with it.
Mind the teeth. Yours and hers both.
Enjoy it. Even if it's bad, as a first kiss it's still going to be the most physically intimate you've been with a girl and it'll feel good.

Stay awesome. :)

[–]themauvestorm3 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Sedditor

Don't even worry about picking up chicks or anything like that: The biggest thing you guys could get out of this is to start thinking of yourself as a value-giver in the world, not a value-taker.

Value-takers feel like there isn't enough for them. They put fences up around themselves, hoard the happiness or love they've scraped up and worry about losing that, rather than focus on how they can gain more. Value-takers suck the fun out of situations, they put others down to convince themselves that they are at least better than someone else. They wait for others to create the joy in life, and jump on the bandwagon.

Value-givers aren't worried about how much love will come their way. They're more concerned with brightening the lives of others. They assume abundance.

Have the confidence to act lovingly toward others. Have the confidence to accept yourself as being good enough. Admit to yourself that you are worthy of others' kindness. When talking to others, figure how you can make their life a little bit brighter for a moment. The most popular people I know all share this in common; their presence makes those around them happier.

A big AHA moment for me was realizing that EVERYONE wants to be accepted, loved, acknowledged, and respected, but some of us are really good at letting our fear get in the way of that. Seeing that OTHER people, including hawt girls, have social anxieties too gave me a lot of empathy for everyone I talk to. Everyone wants to connect, and if you gain a thirst for doing that well, and get good at it, people will be grateful to you for it.

Here's a good website to read a little about conversation skills http://www.girlschase.com/content/conversationalist

Hope this helps :-).

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[–]darkenspirit 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I dont know what I am right now. I feel I am in transition from an FA to a Sedditor.

I had a serious case of comfort zone oneitis before coming here to seddit. I dated a girl for 7 years from highschool all the way through to college and at the end of it, I lost her.

I was heartbroken. The breakup left me with serious issues:

She took my cat.
Obese (245lbs at 5'11 at age 21)
Debt (Spent way too much money on her and on the 1 bedroom apartment in the city)
Unable to speak to women because all the game I had was HIGHSCHOOL LEVEL, ontop of that, I had no college friends because I spent a lot of time commuting and spending nights with my girl
Graduating into the worst fucken economy ever looking for a finance job.

I was also diagnosed with a weird bi-polar syndrome and I was seriously depressed. After a lot of reddit lurking and the such, I fell upon /r/keto and /r/malefashionadvice. These two subreddits would change my life forever.

I started keto because there was hope here. A fucken bacon diet where I could stay at home? ARE YOU FUCKEN KIDDING ME? I cant believe how much weight I lost. I am now at 200 after 6 short months. Because of this and mfa, they lead me to seddit where I soon learned the first step to getting back into the world:

GET YOUR FUCKEN LIFE IN ORDER FIRST

You cant get girls if your shit isnt in order. If you dont look like you can handle yourself as a person, how is the girl supposed to trust you with her emotional bullshit and her problems when she asks you for support? Plain and simple, she cannot, no matter what her personality is like. She can be a FA herself, but if you cant support her, she wont ever see anything worthwhile in you.

I learned I had to work out, I had to get confidence somehow.

When i entered the gym the first time with my flabby no muscles weird shapes body because of this diet, I was fucken intimidated as hell. Hot bitches everywhere with their tight gym shorts, leggings or whatever the hell constantly judging me. Guys who could bench a billion pounds and have rippling abs. This could not possibly be a place for me.

The first hour, I sat there doing stretches, what kinds of stretches? I dont even fucken know, I was just reaching at parts of my body trying not to look confused.... Then I starte dto notice something after my first hour there. It wasnt about the weights you were lifting, it wasnt about the effort you were putting in here, it was the fact that I WAS HERE IS WHAT WAS MAKING ME FEEL 1000 times better.

As I kept going back I soon realized the people with the huge abs and arms were here 4+ hours a day. I soon learned weight means nothing, ITS REPS, MORE REPS = MORE FIT.

I joined a small club where we play table top games and I soon met some wonderful people through them. The quality of people improved slowly. From outright slobby nerds to cool people who enjoyed to game but didnt make a life of it. I learned it doesnt matter who it is, TALK TO EVERYONE, everyone has shit to share and you become so much more enriched talking to people and learning to conduct yourself in a conversation.

So here I am, I present before you someone who is trying hard to keep his 25k a year job while working out in hopes of showing a girl someday that I can cook for them, Love them, and game with them like no other. Do I need this girl? No I dont right now because I have a lot on my plate. I have Judo, Working out, my Job, and above all else, enjoying my own company to look forward to everyday.

My advice to all FA's. Get out to the gym first. It is such an easy step that opens the gateways to everything. Diet and take care of the one thing you will own that is the most important thing in the world, Your own body. When you have lost several pounds and can fit into a size smaller than the one you are in now, you will realize what a great rush this feeling is and it will springboard you into a new life.

It wont be easy.

It wont happen in a day.

But do not ever fucken discount the little steps you take towards that goal.

I believe in you all. I believe in my fellow FA's, it doesnt have to be that way. I lost everything and I am glad I did because I was living a shallow life where my life depended on another girl who had all the power in that relationship. When she wanted sex was the only time I would get it, When she wanted to go out is when we'd go out.

Dont rush into something so fast. FA doesnt end with getting a girl, it could very well be the reason why you are stuck there in the first place. Worry about yourself first, then present yourself to the world. You are an amazing person with a lot to offer.

[–]majorthrowaway123 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]frogma 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

More reps generally means more tone (so more "fit" I guess), whereas heavier weight/fewer reps gets your muscles bigger faster, but doesn't necessarily get you more toned unless you're doing a bit of both.

For things like chest workouts, more reps of lower weight isn't gonna get you too big (it'll take a lot more time), but your chest will be slightly more chiseled. Whereas for biceps, I've pretty much always stuck to more reps/lower weight, and my biceps have always been huge and not exactly "chiseled" per se.

Either way, powerlifters do more weight/fewer reps, and bodybuilders do less weight/more reps. The powerlifter's main goal is to be able to lift heavier and heavier weights, whereas the bodybuilder's main goal is to make their body look really good. If you're a smaller guy, either "method" is gonna help a lot, but powerlifting will initially help with getting bigger overall (IMO basically). If you're already decently sized (or fat), bodybuilding might be better because the whole point of bodybuilding is to make the body look "nicer" in general.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

"toned" is not a precise term. It doesn't correspond to any characteristic in real life. It's one of those terms like "balanced diet". Based on what you're saying, I think you're talking about losing fat in combination with not too large muscles. If you want to lose fat, you have to cut back on food (calories). A powerlifter can be fat and still lift a lot of weight because he/she is being judged on pounds lifted. But if he/she wants to look good, he can lose the fat and look good. A bodybuilder is judged on appearance and so must gain muscle and lose fat. Bodybuilding exercises isolate muscles in order to get a certain look. (That's my understanding; I haven't studied bodybuilding.)

I'm not sure if there's much practical difference for someone like me who wants to look good and be functionally strong. I do know that powerlifting doesn't take as much time in the gym though. Just a few sets of a few compound movements and you're done. You can focus on cutting the fat outside the gym in terms of your diet. When he was talking about spending 4 hours a day in the gym.. I'm just like: O_O For me it's more like 30 minutes three times a week (when I was doing the powerlifting exercises. Now I've moved and haven't joined a gym. I'm doing bodyweight exercises at home now, but still few reps with whichever version of the exercise is the hardest thing I can do at the time, such as one legged squats. Counting calories to lose fat.)

[–]frogma 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You're exactly right- I was basically gonna say the same thing about being "toned," but I wasn't sure if that's what made the distinction (less fat in comparison to the muscles). I think in some cases (or in some muscles at least), you can do more reps at lower weight and build up certain muscles that otherwise wouldn't show, whereas if you're "powerlifting" with them, you can get em bigger overall but nothing will really "stick out" (usually).

I'm not sure what your personal goal is, but I know most guys would like to be bigger overall, with less fat. I don't follow any certain "regimen," I just do the things I want to do that'll help me look the way I want to look. I've worked out only a few times in the past few years, but I used to be really built (I'm kinda just riding off that, because my muscles haven't really deteriorated too much since then, so I still look decent).

I'll go through some of the shit I did though:

Halfway through high school, I got addicted to working out (can't really remember what got me into it). I looked online for different regimens, different diets, different supplements, all of that shit. I basically decided that I was gonna do my own regimen (but it's important that you make sure to stretch and shit, and know your limits). I also decided I didn't want to fuck around with the more questionable supplements, so I just bought a big tub of creatine (for anyone who doesn't know, creatine is regularly found in meats- you get about 3-6 grams of it from a burger, and you already have it in you, so if you try to compare it to steroids, I'll consider you a dumbass). I would take basically twice the "dosage" of creatine that I needed, and post-workout I'd eat a shit ton of pure protein (turkey and shit). My bench max went from 165 to 210 in literally about 2 weeks (basically thanks to the creatine, and the fact that I worked out a lot). I would work out 2-3 times a day, for at least an hour at a time. The cool thing about creatine is that it helps you not get as sore.

At that time, I was really only focusing on chest and biceps, because I wanted to look like the standard "fit" guy (though I definitely mixed in some other shit, but not as much). This was my regimen:

Instead of doing 10 reps of 135, then 8 of 145, then 6 of 155, then 4 of 165, then 2 of 170, then 1 of 185 or whatever (like most people recommend), I would just go till exhaustion with each weight. At my peak, I'd start with about 30 reps of 135 (or as many as I could do), then rest and/or focus on a different area for about 5-10 minutes, then go back and do the same thing with 155, or jump up to 185 if I wanted, then eventually max out. I'd be taking breaks in between, so it allowed me to do a shit-ton more reps while also increasing the weight a lot. I highly recommend it to everyone, though I was chastised the last time I mentioned it here. IMO though, that'll allow you to get bigger AND more toned at the same time. I'd also do that shit about 2-3 times throughout the day (this was over summer in high school, so there wasn't much else to do).

So basically, I got really big really fast. I was eating good too, so I gained about 15 pounds of muscle and simultaneously lost a ton of fat (though I had never really been fat in the first place). At my peak I was benching 245, deadlifting 515, and then my squats were terrible because I never really focused on legs. Then there were other random lifts (like curls) where I could lift a shit-ton of weight, but those aren't usually measured in comparison to other people.

Then I took a powerlifting class in high school, and most of that shit dropped. Since I had to do the "standard" powerlifting regimen, I wasn't able to perform up to my potential for most exercises. For bench we'd warm up with 10 reps of 135, then a minute later we'd do 8 reps of 145 or whatever. My muscles definitely got sore and shit, but it wasn't the same. And since I was following some other guy's regimen, the coach didn't allow us to deviate from it. At the end of the day I'd be pretty exhausted from that and sometimes wouldn't be able to do a second workout at home.

So that's basically my history with powerlifting. Then at one point in college I went to California and decided to get a six-pack and lose some pounds overall. So while I was there, I'd go to the YMCA once or twice a day, mix up some weights, some running, and some ab workouts, and then at night I'd go for a run. At the peak of that I was running about 10-14 miles a night (basically a mix of "slow" jogging and actual running). I did that for a few months. Never got a six-pack, even though at the time I was also really watching my caloric intake and shit like that. I dropped about 20 pounds, but I'd say about 15 of that was muscle for some reason.

Since then, I haven't worked out too much at all. What I've also found is it doesn't really affect my success with girls. I have a beer belly and shit, still have some left-over muscles, but I'd say I look only slightly above-average overall. So I hardly ever recommend people to lift weights and shit in order to get better with girls. If you're truly doing it for yourself, go ahead, but don't base your expectations on that. Also realize it's not exactly necessary in terms of your interactions and shit. You can be a really cool guy and talk to girls whether you're a bodybuilder or a 300-pound bum on the street.

[–]themauvestorm3 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Wow, I'm happy you manage to get yourself out of hat dark spot but wow... The advice you give is sound; it's exactly what one needs to get out of the pit and yet,

I can't believe how encompassing the expression ''forever alone'' evolved to be. When I hear ''forever alone'', I imagine someone who's never been in any meaningful relationship with peers outside of his own family. I see someone with limited relation with his close family, at best. I see someone with just next to no friends, also someone without any kind of romantic experience; someone for whom the sole concept of holding hands with a romantic prospect is foreign.

Not to say loneliness and depression can touch this type of person anymore than it can to the next one; the way how I interpret ''forever alone'' compared to the widely accepted meaning just stumps me plain and simple.

Have and upvote and congrats on your recovery.

[–]alonedesu 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]frogma 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of the more well-known guys are like that because it's technically (and essentially) a business they're running. If I was making money off that kind of shit, and trying to uphold an image (not necessarily a "good" image overall, but the image of a guy who gets a lot of girls), I'd probably start acting similarly.

Then I know plenty of other guys who act like what you're talking about (most of whom aren't in the community), and I'd consider those guys to be assholes. I think a guy like Mystery is exactly like what you're talking about, but then there's a bunch of other guys (like TofuTofu) who are focused on giving value, so they're gonna be much friendlier in general to people. I'll admit, I'm not the best at giving value (at least, not all the time), so I will make value judgments and come off as more of a dick sometimes. Especially early on, I'd purposely avoid the guy who was unintentionally cock-blocking me by taking up too much of my time. Now I kinda do the opposite- I embrace that guy for who he is and don't mind chatting with him for a bit, then politely leave him so I can actually get shit done.

There's definitely 2 sides to the coin though- I'd say a guy like Jeffy from RSD is exactly like that (I've only seen him briefly but he strikes me as that type of guy), whereas a guy like Tim from RSD is probably a lot different (if you see any of his videos, he seems like a pretty genuinely friendly and outgoing guy).

Edit: In other words, there's plenty of guys like that, who take value and focus way too much on objectives, and then there's plenty of other guys who focus on having fun and giving value. A lot of the "earlier" PUAs took the former approach, probably at least somewhat due to Mystery- whereas a lot of the more current guys have started to focus on giving value. I'm sure you'll still see plenty of both types, and both types exist outside the community too.

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There is a very, very subtle point I want to make about this that'll take up some links for sources and I'll probably mess it up. Before you hate me forever, probably read up on Hugh Riskit's thoughts on PUA and ethics since he's a better writer and mirrors my own opinions.

Rather than give the general argument I'd like to ask some questions as to the specific concerns you have. I'll approch how to address your concerns through a chain rather than shot gun because I want to pinpoint what you think. I need to get this question out of the way first. :

Do you think there exists a model of learned human behavior that is both effective, and ethical? That is, does there exist in possibility space a manner of conducting yourself that is attractive to members of the opposite sex you find attractive, that is congruent with you personality, and is learnable?

[–]alonedesu 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That is a heavy question.

It has to be. The fundamental divide between people's opinions of ethics and pick up in the general sense is whether someone can learn to be better with people without unethical influence.

I completely understand your ethical concerns. A lot of people have them. I'll explain my paradigm quickly:

People signal. It's what we do. We form rapid judgments of each other based on very little information. This isn't unethical per say, but it is very error prone in that same way that our pattern completing brain is prone to make errors and see visual illusions. You are signaling right now. You are not allowed a get out of signal free card. The question is: Are people receiving the messages you want them to get?

Caring can look overbearing. Confidence can look like arrogance. A teasing joke misspoken can look like a wicked jab.

Therefore it is vital for both you and your relationships that you get good at signaling. By being a better reader of signals, (knowing what people intend to say) and knowing how to convey better messages, you can have your own needs filled as well as anticipate and fulfill the needs of others.

Additionally, girls will like you. You'll learn to convey interest in ways that are well received and achieve a measure of charisma with the opposite sex that allows you to determine what makes a 'good match' in your mind. After all, how do you know you like nerdy chicks? Or goths, or whatever you think you'll love in someone. You can only guess, really. Humans are bad at anticipating what makes us happy. Very, very bad at it. So it's good to learn what really does 'click' with you. After that you can narrow in. This is where advice gets sparse, because the hardest part is learning that signaling is a thing. You can't get out of it, so you may as well be good generally. There's several pitfalls of self judgment, other objectifying, and shallowness that does need to be avoided. Science fact. But if you adhere to a physicalist worldview like mine, you'll know there's no fate. There isn't any destiny. There are good matches out there, people who finish your sentences, are great in bed and are in it for the long haul. If you don't know how to reach them then it is very possible you could never reach them, leaving both of you stuck with whatever the laws of randomness threw your way.

That is unacceptable to me. Sure there are plenty of people who "were never looking and just found her" but they are a self selecting bunch. They'll turn up in any internet thread. There's no reason to believe the universe will match you with someone you'll like in five years. None. Plenty of people where never looking for her, and never found her. That means you'll have to figure that part out yourself.

As for identity? I'm not so concerned with that. Getting your childhood dream is letting a six year old plan your life. My six year old self didn't anticipate how I would change and grow. He didn't know what it was like to be a fireman or writer or whatever he wanted to be in that moment. He has 0 experience with running the life of an adult that isn't his mom. Frankly, he's pretty shitty at running him mom's life anyway. (always demand Micky D's the fat bastard) I ascribe to a habitual theory of identity. It's what the old virtue ethics of Greece Palestine and India thought. Aristotle, Epicurus, Buddha, Jesus and (my fav) Epictetus. Your actions forge your identity. You aren't generous unless you give. You aren't kind unless you show kindness. Any protest that you are really quite nice on the inside does not fucking cut it. You are what you do.

Signaling is a thing. Get over it. Learn to do it. Make your life better as you get better at it. Make other's lives better by sending them signals they'll like. (People like to be liked by likable people.) Part of that will involve getting laid. It'll be fun.

At least that's what I think.

Note: I tried doing the whole back up every claim with links thing, but boy that's annoying. :)

[–]alonedesu 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Weightlifters can become meatheads and Cyclists can become elitist assholes. I once knew a guy who a perfect nice until he became an assistant manager at a movie theatre I worked at when I was 16. Afterward he was a terrible taskmaster, berating even me for a work performance that had achieved notoriety for its industriousness.

We could hypotheses that such people were already assholes without power. Thus they were forced to lick boots and suck up and that explains their earlier likability. After all, at the end ofRevenge of the Nerds, there wasn't an egalitarian wonderland. Rather the power structure flipped. The Phi Beta Kappas were forced to do manial labor while the nerds enjoyed the sexual attention of sorority sisters. Personal Power puts Personal Ethics in contrast and relief.

The temptation to use skills to serve a Machiavellian impulse exists. But to the credit of all the PUAs I know personally, none of them show such behavior.

Relationships outside male-female can be improved through the sociability insights in the seduction community. One of the core insights of the seduction community is the license to stereotype. It is unfortunate that one of the most common protests to PUAs is that they are not acting personally. Superficiality is a word tossed around quite often. But I would challenge the assumption that depth can be reached in a short conversation. Stereotyping is necessary in the same way that prototyping, modeling and board brushes is necessary. If I see a guy in a video game themed shirt I can make certain high probability guesses about what he is like and adjust for when I am wrong. Artists will often start with plantonic circles and squares and fill in and remove the bits they don't need. As a result they have a realistic looking figure and if they labor over that painting for many years, an artist can achieve remarkable depth. It is the same with male to male relationships, and relationships generally. You must paint broad strokes and then fill in as you go. One of the major errors of first timers is to assume that the knowledge they already have of friends and family is now suspect if it doesn't conform to the PUA model. The PUA model puts into context behaviors that are widely shared but it is without nuance and this is on purpose. It is a mistake to apply it in cases where it does not need to be applied. This is another possible interpretation of the self styled Machiavellianism that you saw.

[–]drumdance 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]frogma 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

KarmaKaiser's comment is awesome, but to answer the part about "methods": I've never subscribed to any certain method. I'm generally not good at remembering shit in the first place, so I couldn't really do that anyway. But I think what you'll find is that most PUAs will say some shit you agree with, and other shit you completely disagree with. Easiest example is with negs- most people don't like negs, don't feel comfortable using them, and don't want any part of that. So if you're looking at a PUA like Mystery and you've been enjoying some of the material but then you come across the part about negs, just fuckin ignore it if you want. Same thing with anything else you see here or in some material. Enjoy the stuff you personally like, and don't waste your time on the shit that doesn't appeal to you (even if it's being said by the same person). Although I think a healthier thing to do is at least try to learn from it and figure out the underlying psychological aspects involved, because that can be pretty insightful.

Then just make sure to go out and actually do shit instead of just analyzing it or talking about it. Try all kinds of different things just for the hell of it. If you can, don't even use scripted shit- either make up your own shit, or come up with it on the spot. I don't like anything that's scripted because by definition it's not exactly genuine (and most likely won't be congruent when you use it).

Basically just do whatever you want. The way I approach things, I read about all kinds of shit, quickly forget most of it, but keep some of the basic principles in mind when I go out. Then I basically just wing it and go with the flow, and see what happens. I don't analyze a single thing while I'm actually out- I save that for later. And that's why a lot of people think seddit goes way too much in-depth about shit- it definitely does, but that's because from the confines of my own home I can analyze the fuck out of whatever I want. Don't think for a second that I'm doing that while I'm out talking to people (and I hope most other guys don't do that).

Edit to add to your second point: I firmly believe all guys will go through a few main stages. You start off pretty insecure and ignorant. Then you start having some success. After a certain point, the success will cause you to become a little too confident, sometimes to the point of complete douchebaggery- that's just the way you react to the success. Then the final stage basically involves you learning how to be a good person and still have success without being motivated purely by that success. The "douchebag" phase will probably be the most fun overall (and you'll probably be getting all your validation from girls/sex, which isn't how that should work), but you'll learn that it's not a healthy mindset to have. Not everyone will go through those stages, but I think that's how most people tend to react to success.

[–]drumdance 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Sedditor

But this isn't about seduction.

That cute girl in the elevator? She's got health problems. And daddy issues. And she hasn't loved in a year. And when you ask her out, you'll make her week.

The only thing to fear is fear itself. And maybe dying alone.

If she says No, the world will keep turning. And one of seven billion people, for a week, before she forgets, will think you're, at worst, a nice guy. But now she knows your name. If she says Yes, your world will change.

Stop waiting - the world isn't.

Either our wired generation is lonelier than any before it or it's simply easier for them to vocalize their misery. I suspect the former - everyone's facebook pages showing you pictures of the parties you're not at while the people in the pictures are secretly just as miserable.

Either live your life or die with regrets.

Need more practical advice? I don't have it. You're all special cases. This is your unique problem. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy would probably benefit all of you.

Relentlessly step out of your comfort zone. Stop saying No. Stop rationalizing your indecision - "I should say 'Hi' to that girl - No, she probably has a ..." < That's you lying to yourself. Stop that.

And you should unsubscribe from r/foreveralone.

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If you like bars, then yeah, go to a bar by yourself (usually the weekend will have at least a few college kids rolling through).

Then there's a few ways you can approach it- kinda depending on the amount of people there, and kinda depending on your preference. You can immediately say hi to the first people you see, and just get some good vibes going from that- and even stay to chat with them if you want (just say something situational to get yourself involved with the group, then kinda play it by ear from there). Or you can go to the bar and have a couple drinks before you do anything else- just kinda relax, get a feel for the place, and get some social lubrication. Then start talking to the guy/girl next to you (and make sure to sit next to someone- or one chair over). It can be about sports, or random shit. Older guys are really fuckin easy to talk to usually, and they don't really mind smalltalk (usually). Older girls are basically the same.

As far as the actual "game-playing" goes, it's the same as it is when you're out with friends. Nobody's gonna give a shit that you're alone. Sometimes people will ask, and either tell the truth ("my friends are away at school, I'm stuck here"), or if you don't feel comfortable with that for some reason, make some shit up ("My friends wanted to see the Twilight movie but there's no way in hell I'm going to that"- or just say you're waiting for your friends but not sure if they'll show). People usually won't ask though- unless you look really uncomfortable or something. Usually when I go with friends to bars, I ditch them anyway to go do my own thing. It's never an issue, so don't feel weird about it. Especially in your hometown, I bet a ton of other people will be there alone too.

[–]let_them_burn 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]frogma 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Showing up at a college bar alone is effectively no different than showing up with friends and immediately ditching them. It's something most people are uncomfortable doing so they assume it's an issue, but most people won't generally notice or care. Ask yourself how often you look around a bar and try to spot people who are alone. Then ask yourself (assuming you do that) how often you'd go up to them and actually say something about it. I actually do it to girls a lot (but I do that on purpose because I know other people don't), but I've never said anything like that to a regular guy, and 9 times out of 10 I won't even make note of the fact that a guy's alone unless he also happens to look like a weirdo. Most people are the same way, except total dickwads, who you'll be dealing with anyway but are also in the minority.

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[–]JRAlpha0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your problem is probably that you are value-taker, not value giver. Change that and you will see a social circle forming around you. Read up on giving vs taking value.

You could go out to bars and just approach girls alone. That's how Mystery (most famous PUA) started. For that you need to have an iron cast mindset and determination.

Otherwise just join activities that people your age frequent. Classes, hobbies, interests. One thing you can do pretty easily is keep an eye on your city subreddit and attend a meeting. Redditors are a friendly bunch. Hit up people and instead of asking them if there is a party, propose an activity (if they say no and you don't beg and emo about it they will respect you for inviting them). Make social connections between people and they will remember you and introduce you. Join your local PUA lair (after reading some materials, don't show up a total layman, they will not give you a free bootcamp). See if there is anyone who is starting out, and if you guys get along make a pact to go out sarging (picking up women). Introduce him to your social circle, and he can introduce you to his.

Really, all you need to do is just go out, be out and eventually you will see your social life snowball. But not before you become a value-giver.

[–]let_them_burn1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Accident7 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Hello there! I've been coming here for a couple of months now and I'm proud to say my results have gone up! But I'm still getting stuck at one part, that is the sexual escalation. I'm very confident and I talk to girls that I just met and girls that I've known for a while like its a breeze with fun being had back and forth. But my problem is is that I can't escalate. It's like making it to a final boss in a videogame (nerdy I know right?) and not being able to beat it cause you aren't high enough level or aren't strong enough or w.e the case may be and in the end it results in you quitting.

Now it's not to say that I quit, but I just dont know how to be sexual in the sense of being able to hint at sex and straight up say sexual things. I always think she would get offended and then spread bad rumors about me (I know I'm a big wuss for worrying about rumors)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not comfortable at all with being sexual (outside of kino) and the main help I need is there

Tl;dr I need help with sexual escalation bad!!!

Thanks!

[–]marco161091 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not comfortable at all with being sexual (outside of kino) and the main help I need is there

Are you saying that you don't have a problem with physical escalation (kino)?

If that's the case, then you shouldn't be getting stuck. Physical escalation is the most important thing you need and is something a lot of people get stuck at.

My advice would be to practice kino a lot more. With everyone. And take a look at the DiCarlo escalation ladder. A simple google search should be enough. It's a freely available e book.

If you're talking about verbally escalating the conversation onto something sexual, well that's not as important. But still a helpful tool. You should practice flirting. Find double meanings in words, etc. You will probably fuck up. But you'll learn. And that's the only way to learn anything.

Stay awesome. :)

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[–]marco161091 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

Like women as people first and above all.

Not objectifying females. This is something that is mentioned throughout seddit. This is also something which is mentioned in almost every book about pick up theory.

You know the funny thing? A lot of people who say they don't objectify women actually do it the most.

Showing sexual interest however, is not the same as objectifying someone.

Be interested, curious, and willing to discuss any topic of conversation that comes up.

Again something which is encouraged not only in Seddit, but mentioned over and over in all good theory out there.

Don't take her jacket, pull out the chair, or open the door. That's trying too hard and is freaking obvious.

Not true. Do it if you do it for everyone. Do you take the jacket of the girl you're not attracted to as well? Do you pull out a chair for the girl with the moustache as well? Do you open the door for the old woman in the hallway? If yes, then go ahead and do it for the hottie with you as well. If not, don't do it.

Actually understand the experience of being a female in society and don't just assume that women are dickless men.

The female psych and emotions are something which is discussed to a healthy amount here as well.

Listen

Another thing which is encouraged in seddit as well as theory out there.

Understand your own issues first. If you can't love yourself first, you're incapable of being in a relationship with another person. Deal with that first.

Pretty much the pillar of all advice on seddit and a lot of good theory out there.

Don't listen to any advice on seddit.

All the points you mentioned besides this are things advised on Seddit. So how does one go about this exactly?

You have an opinion of seddit which is wrong. I won't blame you. A lot of people do.

There is a huge stigma attached to the art of seduction. Is it because the whole thing is bad? No, it's because there are a few people out there that give it a bad name. They're even in the minority (I speak this from personal experience). It's just that the word "pick up" generates the image of a playboy going around getting girls into bed and then breaking their hearts. Why is such an image generated? Mostly because there ARE people out there who do it. They might not necessarily have even studied pick up theory. Not to mention, the social media has also generated a bad image of "playboys".

On the other side of the spectrum, the people who are good with girls and don't play with girls' emotions are never really even called "playboys". Just awesome guys who are good with girls.

Maybe this perspective will give you an idea why you have a bad image of pick up.

You gave good advice. Which in itself makes you one of the very people you hate. Maybe my comment gives you a different insight. Even if not, stay awesome. :)

[–]AFlatCap-5 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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The point of going on dates is not so much to get to know somebody as it is to enjoy yourself. In my experience, I've found that conversations about what you or her do, where they went to school, what interests they have, etc. are not very fun (both for you and her). These are the same conversations she has with many people and is justifiably not intrigued by them. While "getting to know somebody" is important, it should come naturally. Have fun conversations where you engage the other person and make each other laugh or smile, even if the topic is nonsensical or unimportant. Instead of asking the same run of the mill questions during conversation, try asking something completely random . Poke fun at your surroundings, things in the news, celebrities, whatever. When you have a great night with your buddies joking around and shooting the shit it isn't based on questions like that, remember the point is to have a good time.

[–]JRAlpha 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor

What you most likely do is interview mode. You ask her factual questions or you discuss an activity in a factual sense and while it is keeping the conversation alive it is not moving it along emotionally. What you gotta do is incorporate jokes and funny comments and talk about emotions. Women love talking about emotions. When you tell a story about how your hard drive failed don't say: "My hard drive failed yesterday. It was 11 years old. Solid workmanship". Say something like: "Oh I had the most bummer thing happen to me yesterday. My old hard drive failed. I know it's just a hard drive but that baby went though 4 computers. Some of my fondest memories were saved on those disks. I lost so many dear pictures and original music. Like that one time I went kyaking and I met this funny Belgian dude who kept doing... [go into the story]".

In first example you are not saying anything that she can relate to (unless she is into IT, but even then she probably works with it, she doesn't wanna talk about it on a date) but in the second one even the most layman person can relate to losing good pictures and records of fond memories. And then you go into an interesting/funny story and she is in for an emotional rollercoaster. You are building rapport and comfort as well as emotional connection. She will like you then, and remember you. Don't forget to escalate both kino [touch] and sexually because then you just get friendzoned.

Otherwise, you have to limit the show of interest, make her work for your attraction, if you shower her with it she will go cold. There is other tricks like multithreading, conspiracy plotlines, role reversals, passing shit tests, jealousy plotlines, social proofs, preselections, vibing, sovial violation and many other concepts. You have alot of reading to do, mate.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]JRAlpha 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, they are not deceptions. Conspiracy plotline is when you pull the girl into "us world" and you tell her that you two are gonna do this, or that you two are only one who know this. She feels like she belongs to you in a social sense and they like it. It's not a lie, you can actually tell them whatever the conspiracy is/was.

Jealousy plotline is when she comes up with a conclusion that she has to compete for you. It only works if you establish higher value. You can introduce her to your female friend "who means the world to you" or some other chick you've picked up (so called merging sets). If she feels like she will lose you she will fight for your attention and be more receptive to your escalation. It's a huge validation for her because she feels like she won the battle. And it's not actually a lie, if she is boring and resistant and you have abundance of women to chase, she will lose you.

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[–]supersmaks 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Alright advice train 30, haven’t had a lady so much as smile my way for about 10 years, or have been to a party or whatever. its feels out of my reality almost entirely. Got laid a few times in high school and college (all pre 20’s) but never had a relationship. I suppose what started as being poor in college, and focusing on my craft and not social stuff, spiraled into introversion, lack of confidence then experience etc. then my pattern was completely work/learn/grind, repeat. after moving to socal (fucking torture for forever aloners) about 6 years ago and not getting out or made friends at all I feel I’ve pretty much missed the bus, fuck I don’t even make friends online. I’ve read more pua /self-help than most of the forum, but its never translated to action. I’m successful good job/place/car, good at what I do,(and near the top). I basically bust balls with people all day so im good at all that. But the behavior/mindset/reference experiences are so distant, it doesn’t even feel like the same species to me. Don’t know how to turn this around now, tried therapy/ meds this year as an experiment, (BS!) just cycled off. just cant get to a state of believing its possible at all anymore. im one of those worker types that's always workng or dedicating time to my craft/learning so it doesn't leave time for much compounding the problem.

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[–]supersmaks1 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

thanks for the reply, couple things.first, its very hard for me to even present my case writing. i haven't written much,found my voice, or articulate in writing. i fear most of what i say will be mis-interpreted. your advice is fine but not near where my perspective/problems.ive got a weird brain.

"A good way to start is to find a few things that interest you. It could be basketball, cooking, dancing, or one of a million other things."

i have dedicated myself to my craft and it pretty much consumes all of my energy life force etc. basically if there is time available i have things to do to fill it (real learning has to be done alone), and not just in my craft. i have so much to say about this i don't even wan't to start in,ill just say ive met so few dedicated people it disgusts me, so it seems to be the only real improvement i can control in my life, unyielding dedication/motivation.but that doesn't transfer to other things.

"You also have experience from being successful, see if you can transfer that confidence over to meeting new people. If you are at the top of your industry, you must be constantly networking."

negative,(this is a concept thrown out allot) while sure I've met some people, i got where i'm at through skill and hard work, it only took 2 people to see how hard i work hire me, and let me flex. and the confidence does not transfer, i've searched myself deeply for this.

"You need to figure out what you want from life. If you don't have time to go out and try to push your comfort zone, you have to make it."

i figured that out along time ago, that's how i dedicated and became successful, but what you want from life is not what you need from life to make you balanced. i find it hard to make big life decisions without being more balanced in life. if my perspective is that skewed with women, my entire out look of the future, family, happiness is as well.

Just to try and add context. its not like im an introvert programmer type that's all scared and introverted, or doesn't know how to be social.im cooler/more creative than most and can hang/talk on subjects for days, and i can get people crazy stoked pretty easy. it was more of a bitterness or turning away from people i suppose. i hate anyone trying to sell me anything or waste my time and fuck my life up, so i just generally leave people alone. as i had my adult awakening i suppose and saw how much we've all been bullshitted/programmed, and chose not to play the game for a while, well that was 10 years ago, and now my internal mechanics just aren't there for this. when passing a women (im pretty socially calibrated and aware), the vibe is always, "hello fellow human". not necessarily negative, but not interested.

[–][deleted] 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]supersmaks1 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

again thanks for the discussion. ill try and clear up it more. "First off, who cares if you are misinterpreted?"

i don't care what people think , fear may have been the wrong word. i don't articulate these heavy concepts well, and don't want to get into the weeds by addressing the wrong psychological concepts.(my point to begin with).

"It seems like you may be a perfectionist"

negative(think right brain,not left brain concepts). striving for quality/dedication with as much force as i can,yes. im an artist, i experiment without outcome dependency constantly.

"Do me a favor and try looking at interacting with people in a different light for a week, and see if you like it. Just a week or two that's all"

i do this all the time, i treat my life like a science experiment, search my consciousnesses all the time. this year so far i've tried, anti-anxiety meds,high end psychologist (consistently,and while on meds), being sober, being stoned all the time. different binges of caffeine, exercise, etc. playing with midsets (brutal honesty,all sarcasm,just jokes etc).

having said that, your message is clear, i am totally aware, and do not disagree.but its not quite there. let me try again.

i am past the point of caring what people think, the, "don't give a fuck" mindset for me manifests as not interacting at all, and improving the things i can(art/music/learing etc). i interact with so few people it doesn't matter how i act as there is not much to reflect the difference. i have lived the last 10yrs or so with virtually no validation from people. no hugs/friends/holidays etc. that compounded with daily logistics, i never really cross paths with women at all. and this has set in deep patterns. its not that my beliefs are limiting, its that there not there to begin with.

i read some of your other posts and id like to comment on this.

"You need to search your self. You have these beliefs for a reason. They won't just go away because you want them to. The only way to deal with them is to figure out why you have them, and then you can figure out how to deal with them. Normally just figuring out why you have certain negative beliefs is enough to deal with them. I would suggest talking to someone about it, spending time thinking about it, and be on the lookout for it during your day to day activities. If you pay attention to it, it should start to go away."

i figured most of this out but it didn't go away, im aware, i talked it out with a professional. IT DIDNT GO AWAY.

[–][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]supersmaks1 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

you pretty much nailed it there, well said. and again forgive me for bad writing again, but by beliefs, i meant relating to women (my thoughts move fast and sort of shifted between the girl talk and in general). i have plenty of beliefs in the general sense.

but with women, don't hate em, love em, chase em etc, don't have problems talking to people,just don't talk to people, just go home.i don't walk around pissy to people, and would generally seem normal, basically if you talk to me you're getting a joke back at the least.

its really time to shift my daily routine and this is probably my biggest closest fear. if leave a super cush job with killer pay/benifits (just got out of debt, and have a little saved) and something goes wrong i have nowhere to go, i am effectively homeless and dread the poor times of college (at least the poor part). but im not sure what to do other than i need to reset on how to live. im still in survival mode mind set, doing what i have to do daily to cope. so wake up later, exercise consistently and cook my own food, more meditation. but i have no one around so after 2-3 days off and the loneliness really sets in, i cant say if it would be the best move.

"fear that doing so will cause you harm, so you reject it before you have a chance to get hurt" i suppose that said it. how the fuck do i turn that shit around

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That's great...you are miserable, good for you.

What I am trying to get here is what do you want. People to agree how you are a miserable person? That you feel what you feel?

I can relate to your thoughts. I get like that when I am extremely depressed..

Thoughts I had:

-Invited to party?..."they are just pitying me" -Let's eat taco bell..."Don't tell me what to do..." -Advice on cheer up? "Ass doesn't know what it's like...I'm depressed. These people don't know what it's really like."

I felt...special being depressed. I couldn't fit in, so I had to make up a reason. I was the depressed and miserable one. I am so miserable I cant be happy. It's what it is. But I realized I don't want to live like that. It's tough, but it gets easier.

I am sure many others here can relate too. Many gone through it and have got out of it many times. They are trying to help you. Depression sucks and people can sympathize. They can and want to support you, but in the end it's up to you.

Whether you want help or not is up to you. If you don't want people trying to courage wolf you and want to be told you are what you are now. Be direct or don't fucking post here. This is a subreddit to encourage and teaching people to better themselves. There are other subreddits to do that.

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[–]frogma2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel you, I just don't think there's any other way to "sell" the message. A while ago I was looking at a thread on FA and decided to give some input, then (like you're kinda talking about), I got a lot of shit for it, for no discernible reason. So I stopped trying to talk to people that way. What I usually do now is I PM a specific guy and give advice one-on-one so neither of us has to make sure we say "all the right things" without dealing with bullshit from other people.

I think right now (especially from what I've seen myself), seddit automatically has a lot of haters, for good reasons and bad reasons. Usually if I go into another subreddit to talk about seddit, it's basically in defense, and I try to make some good points to see if some people can get a better perspective without outright dismissing me. I like to think I do a decent job of that, and usually I get a good amount of PMs from people who were too afraid to publicly reply to me.

But in general, I don't really try to "advertise" anything at all. What happens is I see someone who has (IMO) a really bad mindset, or someone who gives (IMO) some really bad advice, and the only reason I respond is so people can get a different perspective. Then it's just natural sometimes to mention seddit, since I don't have the time or patience to write a book for people or answer their 1000 questions myself- a lot of shit can be answered by looking through the sidebar or through some of the top posts all-time.

Like I said though, I don't think there's any other way to go about it really. If I post in some other subreddit, first I'm gonna give some advice (or whatever is called for), and then I'm probably gonna mention seddit since seddit gives a lot of the same advice.

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4chan'er

Don't say another Goddamn word. Up until now, I've been polite. If you say ANYTHING else - ONE word - I will kill myself. And when my tainted spirit finds its destination, I will topple the Master of that dark place. From my black throne, I will lash together a machine of bone and blood, and fueled by my hatred for you. This Fear Engine will bore a hole between this world and that one. When it begins, you will hear the sound of children screaming -as though from a great distance. A smoking orb of NOTHING will grow above your bed, and from it will emerge a thousand starving crows. As I slip through the widening maw in my new form, you will catch only a glimpse of my radiance before you are incinerated. Then, as tears of bubbling pitch stream down my face, my dark world will begin. I will open one of my six mouths, and I will sing the song that ends the Earth.

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There was a thread earlier today in FA (which was deleted), that I can only assume came from a sedditor or someone versed in seduction BS. It's been deleted I believe, but he had a tip to get out of the friend zone: "Tell her that you're glad you're just friends".

It doesn't sound so bad in itself, but his reasoning was that this plays on her insecurities, makes her wonder what is so wrong with her that even you, whom she supposedly looks down on, would reject her. He claimed a 5/5 success rate as I recall.

It's manipulative. I don't like being manipulated and I presume other people don't either. This is just one example off the top of my head because it was recent, I've certainly seen much worse over the years.

Edit: In an IAMA a while back a self-proclaimed PUA said that he could never let a woman have her way. I'd accept that he was just a douchebag and not really into seduction at all if I hadn't seen similar shit from seduction communities all over.

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[–]JRAlpha 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sedditor here.

But the whole success with opposite gender is based on manipulation. Sorry brah. When you see a hawt lady your eyes pop out cause her lips are so red, her breasts are full and perky, her skin is smooth and even, her eyes are prominent, her hair is smooth and gorgeous and her body is athletic.

But her lips are not that red without lipstick, her breasts are not that perky without a push-up bra, her skin is not that smooth without an assortment of different skincare products, her eyes are not that prominent without makeup, her hair cost 200 bucks and her figure isn't that perfect without days in the gym.

See what I'm getting at? She is manipulating you into eliciting a response that is better then she would get without taking steps.

Now, I personally don't find that dishonest, she is just trying to be her best self. In same sense PUAs are just people who have learned to be their best selves except that for men it is more about looking sexy and more about behaving sexy. So we instil behaviours in you that women find sexy. One of those behaviours is being dominant aka alpha and leading the interaction. this DOES NOT mean rape her or make her do things that she is not alright with. Many of manipulative behaviours that PUAs use are there to break down the inhibiting defence we meet. When you approach a girl, she is apprehensive. She doesn't know you and she is unsure of your intentions. She doesn't know if you'll rape and kill her. But you know yourself, and you know that you will not harm her and thus the apprehension on her side is unwarranted and it will not harm her to break those walls down with you.

Remember that we provide tools and understanding, and you provide morals. If you find it morally objectionable to use neg theory, don't use it. You can do fine without it.

Central tenant of seduction community is "Leave her better off than you found her". Keep that in mind when you judge us.

[–]n0c0ntr0l 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

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I think you require some work to break out of this mindset in my opinion. Try to feed your own inner curiosity a bit more, try to open your mind a bit more to the possibilities that the world has to offer.

Yeah a lot of people's hobbies seem really boring, but isn't there something that that intrigues you a bit? Maybe when you find out a bit more about it, you find some interesting tidbits in there. Or maybe, even if the topic itself isnt intersting, how about how that person feels about it, their passion, their energy? Doesn't it feel good to get caught up in their excitement a bit? How has their life changed because of it, how have they pushed themselves to be sucesful at it? Any tips you can use there that can apply to YOUR hobbies or goals?

Often things that seem really boring at first can actually end up being really fascinating if you spend some time peeling back the onion a bit. Especially when speaking with someone really passionate about it.

Try to feed your curiousity and passion for life in general and conversations can get a lot more interesting.

[–]MonkeySteriods3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Whisper1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Terms like "sociopath" sometimes have some legitimate clinical meaning, but often they are an attempt to pathologize the warrior personality.

In other societies in history, competitive, realist personalities who didn't feel a lot of guilt were very much appreciated, and held up as models of manly virtue. Men like Julius Caesar, Hernán Cortés, or Charles Martel may not have been nice people by modern standards, but they were certainly not insane.

Often, individuals with a hyperactive superego will go through life subconsciously afraid of a smack from mommy, unable to compete or assert themselves because they have been conditioned to believe that it is somehow bad, that if they were to shed their crippling burden of guilt, they would instantly turn into serial killers.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even true sociopaths are more frequently beneficial to society than baneful to it, and more frequently inhabit positions of leadership rather than prison cells. Niceness and self-restraint are virtues, but they must be balanced against other things which are also virtues: courage, ambition, determination, tenacity, vision.

Too often people use an exaggerated claim of decency as an excuse for lacking these.

The seducer, like the leader or the warrior, does indeed attempt to shape the world rather than be shaped by it. He attempts to influence women rather than mold himself to their whims.

But to call him immoral for this is to call women a bunch of children who can't be trusted to decide what they prefer. In the end, women have spoken. They respond to seduction skills. They don't respond to gifts, bribes, placation, grovelling, or other fake niceness. They're not irrational for doing so.

[–]ShitStyx0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Learning social interactions and how to properly apply them requires the practice and follow through to really get a good handle on things. When you're trying to train a dog a new trick, you don't try to teach him a mathematical equation, that would be silly; dogs don't understand math. Instead you make it a game. When the dog does what you want, you positively reinforce the action. Practicing pickup works alot in the same way. When you do the things that women find attractive, you're validated with sex. Really no one fully understands what attracts women, much the same, a dog doesn't really fully comprehend what you want him to do. He's just learned, if this guy gives me que X, and I do Y, he'll reward me with a treat.

If you really think about that for a second, it actually sounds more like pua are being manipulated by women, not the other way around. Pua just do what women want, and are rewarded for that.

Whisper also makes a great point. "what would it cost you to find out if I am?"(wrong about pickup)

It would require you to improve yourself physically, so you get ripped and become healthier. It would require you to go out and expand your social circle, and you end up having fun. It would require you to create some order in your life, develop some responsibility, and lead interactions. All of these things are good things, so what you lose by practicing pickup, are the negative qualities you currently have.

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[–]KiwiBuckle 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can understand why you're skeptical of the Seddit community. Honestly until I started reading the sidebar did I begin to understand what Seddit was all about. Above all else, Seddit focuses on self-improvement. The two things that are posted on Seddit are

1) How to improve yourself

2) How to communicate more effectively

You state some reasons about why these 2 things will not help you but I disagree with them because I personally have over come a very messed up child hood. In my teenage years some of the things I went through include:

Being locked up in a suicide ward
Going to 4 different psychologists
Growing up in a group home
Dealing with Autism, clinical depression and hypersomnia

Here is a prior posting I did under our Autism-Help Project as evidence of the above list

You may not currently be physically attractive but you certainly can be with good eating habits and minimal exercise. You may not be mentally attractive but you certainly can be if you've read a few classic books or watched some good movies.

No body is telling you to pretend your not. They're telling you to realize you're not. The reason people often say advise that if you don't have confidence to fake it because even when you are rejected (assuming you are, which you may not be) you will notice that it isn't nearly as bad as you thought it out to be in your head.

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[–]tylerofathenry 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I have been looking into the PUA community for a few months now and I do walk a little bit taller, and though the last few years I have been a very confident person despite not "going the distance" with but two girls, I do feel like I have made deeper connections with women just applying my research. But the knowledge is so unorganized from what I have come across. Additionally it is so "do THIS in THAT situation" rather than understanding the principals and concepts behind responses and reactions.

So, to the question... I feel the answer will be "Save your money, buy a book." or "All the information you need can be found online.", but for the sake of firsthand knowledge, would you recommend taking (and have you taken) a firsthand, live in field boot-camp or attending a conference?

My apologies in advance for the formatting.

[–]KiwiBuckle 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Forever Alone comes to seddit - Ask Us Anything
Author	Typical_Sedditor
Upvotes	110
Comments	624
Date	January 11, 2012 5:45 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/ocl65/forever_alone_comes_to_seddit_ask_us_anything/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/forever-alone-comes-to-seddit-ask-us-anything.1326824 https://theredarchive.com/post/1326824

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