Nobody owes anyone sex, but it’s a reasonable expectation if there’s commitment

wtknight · 2023-08-18T19:45:09+00:00

Flaired CMV as this post is making an affirmative claim

Schmurby · 2023-08-18T16:09:23+00:00

I would say that is there’s no sex in a committed relationship and one party is not ok with it, then it’s probably time to rethink the relationship.

Humans (with very few exceptions) really like sex. There’s no point in staying with someone you’re not into

MyLastBestChance · 2023-08-18T15:53:33+00:00

I think the problem is when people fail to consider the state of the relationship when expecting the sexual side to be good. If the relationship itself is struggling, that is very likely to be reflected in the sexual side.

That may be difficult for some men to understand since some seem perfectly willing and able to want to have sex with someone they resent, don’t like very much or even actively dislike but most women don’t feel that way.

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2023-08-18T17:13:19+00:00

I admit if I were in a dead bedroom situation I would really really struggle. I have hypersexuality which my partner knew before he entered into a relationship with me. I try very hard to not aggressively initiate as much as I used to because I realized it made him feel bad. It was all the time. And I know I can be a lot. He jokes about getting be a girl to play with but I am hyper fixated on sex with him specifically.

The thing people never consider about dead bedrooms though is the state of the relationship or the physical and emotional state of the non-interested party. Often that is the biggest factor in a dead bedroom situation.

In a sense it's reasonable to expect if your partner is in good physical and mental health and you're putting effort into your relationship daily. But not if any of those things are off.

purpleunicorn888 · 2023-08-18T16:23:32+00:00

Agree with your two reasons. I’ve been downvoted a lot, but I welcome differing views that are insightful. Im open to compelling, well laid out, logical arguments—please don’t attack me personally. I feel like I’m in a unique position bc I’m high drive, demisexual (sex is really special to me and I see it as a way to connect and feel close with my partner, not just something to satisfy horniness), and I’m a woman.

I think in a marriage you do owe the other person the following regarding sex:

Good faith effort to maintain a healthy and mutually satisfying sex life
Not to unreasonably withhold sex
Not to use sex in a manipulative way. Like I want this material thing, I will use sex as an incentive to get it
Sincere effort and ongoing commitment to heal unhealed trauma and address health issues that potentially affect sex (therapy, hormonal testing, exploring potential medical issues)
Honesty (not brutal 😂, but in a way that facilitates helpful communication)
Consciously NOT misleading/misrepresenting your drive to the future spouse in the dating/engagement phase. I’ve heard of several situations where the low drive person has more frequent sex before getting married. In these instances, the woman purposefully increases the amount of sex before the marriage so it’s on the lower end of the guy’s acceptable range. The guy then believes this is the type of frequency he is “signing up” for. After the legal commitment is made, the woman scales back to the drive that is truer to her. Universally nobody likes to be misled.

AstronautLoveShack · 2023-08-18T16:36:27+00:00

If I'm in a relationship, it's with the expectation that we will be having regular sex. 90% of the time I am correct. There are situations that I will not want to have sex and that should be acceptable to my partner too. Not as in a dead bedroom, but maybe I'm exhausted or I'm feeling sick or I have some basic female reproductive organ issues. I'm not a 24/7 sex robot. Likewise, sometimes my husband worked a double or doesn't feel well or any number of reasons why he might not feel up to it. So while at this point we aren't having it every day, we are at least having it 2-3 times a week. And this is in our 50s and after 10 years together.

Now if I just didn't want to have sex with him ever, he'd rightly be upset. If he didn't want to have sex with me ever, I'd rightly be upset. And we'd have to have a chat about it. Maybe even break up over it. But there is the very real possibility that one or the other or both of us won't be able to have sex due to health or aging in the not too distant future. There are other things we can do to continue having physical intimacy though, and that's my plan for that.

HighestTierMaslow · 2023-08-18T16:36:40+00:00

Sex in LTRs is needed assuming both people value premarital sex.

Sex in marriages is needed unless you're both asexual.

Deadbedrooms are typically from relationship issues affecting the bedroom. Sometimes one person really just loses their libido for no medical reason. No way to predict that one

Zabadoodude · 2023-08-18T15:59:15+00:00

I think you're generally right. You can't unilaterally change a sexual relationship into a non sexual one and expect there to be no consequences for the relationship.

Only caveat I will add is that temporary interruptions happen in long term relationships. Pregnancy, illness, times of extreme stress, can all slow or stop sex life for a time. But there needs to be an understanding that regular activities will resume soon, and you're both working towards it.

MistyMaisel · 2023-08-18T17:51:08+00:00

It is a reasonable expectation IF:

There is commitment
All parties are physically and emotionally healthy
The relationship is healthy and thriving
The clutter of life is not standing in the way
Sex is pleasurable, intimate, and validating for both parties
Both parties are creating a mood in which sex could occur
Both parties want sex

Put reasonably, most women wouldn't have married those men if they knew how that man was really going to treat them and what kind of partner he would be.

Men see it as withholding sex, I think this entire phrasing says the silent part out loud: they believe sex is about them, owed to them, and something women do for men. She's not withholding sex, she's not having sex with you. Say it correctly because by using language correctly you are more likely to understand why sex isn't happening.

There are many reasons it is reasonable not to have sex with someone you love, respect, and are committed to (some of which you can guess from my list above). Being pissed off someone isn't having sex with you is stupid, it is very human, but usually that means stupid. Rather than being pissed off a person isn't having sex with you, try to figure out why. Ask why. Pretend you love this person and do not see sex as something which is done for you. It's stupidly and insanely simple and yet people act like being pissed off is reasonable or a good answer.

NJFlowerchild · 2023-08-18T16:04:34+00:00

It's a reasonable expectation if the relationship and surrounding circumstances haven't changed. It's not reasonable based on commitment alone.

Mentathiel · 2023-08-18T16:52:18+00:00

I think the problem is with the framing of this issue.

If you're in a dead bedroom situation, of course you're going to be upset.

The problem is, your partner presumably isn't "withholding sex" or whatever, unless they're abusive and are using it as a manipulation tactic. They just DON'T WANT sex as much as you do. That's a very different problem. You with your phrasing of "how is it reasonable" etc. imply that they should suck it up and have more sex since it's unreasonable to expect you to go without it. Which means you want them to decide to have sex with you even though they don't want it. That's the problem.

We all agree that dead bedroom situations are a problem. We all agree it's a big problem, enough to break up over. Even more minor libido mismatches can be frustrating over time.

What we don't agree with is that the partner who's not in the mood sucking it up is a reasonable solution. Nor is you blackmailing them that they either suck it up or you cheat on them.

Your options are:

1) break up

2) try to work on it, figure out what is interfering with their sexual desire and try to improve it

3) consensually open up the relationship, though this is very difficult to do in a healthy manner

4) masturbate more

5) be frustrated

Your options are not to cheat or blackmail with cheating. Your options are not to try to control your partner's behavior through guilt-tripping. You can communicate that you're unsatisfied and see if they're willing to work on it in some capacity. And then decide whether it's worth it or you want to break it off.

Does it suck that you've invested maybe years into a relationship that is now breaking apart over sexual stuff? Absolutely. That doesn't entitle you to sex though.

Safinated · 2023-08-18T22:16:39+00:00

We already established we are whores, but the price is a point of contention and haggling. How much sex is reasonable ? Who decides? Can there be trade offs or exceptions?

Haigro · 2023-08-19T01:54:06+00:00

I have a weird perspective of this as a man.

In my last relationship, I was the one who did not want sex. My significant other, a woman, wanted to have sex all the time. At the beginning of our relationship, we did have sex all the time. However, a dead bedroom is usually indicative of something wrong in the relationship. When a woman REALLY wants you, she will crave intimacy with you. The reason I refrained from having sex after being with her for a while is because she was insanely annoying. She added tension to many of my close friendships, she was insanely clingly and was upset whenever she was not the center of attention, and my personal life/career suffered because we were so codependent. I could not have any time to myself or to do shit I wanted to do.

Therefore, I empathize with many women on this subject. While I do agree somewhat with your statement, I would strongly argue that a dead bedroom is a huge indicator of a stagnant relationship. If you have been married for a decade and have been raising children, how long has it really been since you went on a date together and saw each other as lovers rather than as purely parents? If you have been in a long-term relationship, how long has it been since you really planned a fun date/tried something new or has it been just phoning it in every weekend and saying you're too tired?

LoopyPro · 2023-08-18T19:00:51+00:00

If nobody owes anyone sex, then nobody owes anyone commitment either. It's a two-way street.

If a person decides to bait-and-switch by withholding sex in a marriage or committed relationship, creating a dead bedroom situation in the progress, than that person should not expect their partner to stay faithful or stay in the relationship at all. The least that person could do is addressing the issue that lead to the dead bedroom in the first place and attempting to solve it for sake of the relationship/family. If kids are involved and the family gets destroyed as a result, the person neglecting their partner is to blame, as they started it.

If a person says that they will become miserable and experience psychological distress if their sexual needs are being neglected, they are not making that up. Some people try to gaslight other people into thinking that sexual needs aren't real needs, but no amount of dismissing, denying, or sweeping it under the rug will make such needs go away, they will only result in tension and resentment.

Novadina · 2023-08-18T16:03:07+00:00

Dead bedrooms are usually indicators of other problems in the relationship or health issues. You can choose to solve those issues or leave the relationship. If the other person doesn’t want to work with you on solutions to the problems, then you pretty much have to leave.

At no point should you expect your partner to have sex if they don’t actually want to do it. I can’t even see why you would want that, gross. And it won’t actually solve the underlying problem, so resentment will likely just grow making things worse.

JNRoberts42 · 2023-08-18T16:00:36+00:00

If a spouse can only have sex with one person for the duration of the commitment, the other should be concerned about ensuring that sex is at least part of the promise.

So long as the higher libido spouse maintains the same level of care and independence he or she provided in the beginning.

It’s pretty clear from dead bedrooms that one or two rejections inspires a cascade of petty, passive aggressive revenge from the seeking spouse. No one wants to have sex under those conditions.

mdjfodiepcklrn2 · 2023-08-18T18:42:47+00:00

True, but there’s a flip side. Both partners also owe it to each other to remain desirable. You can’t let yourself go and then sit there surprised that the woman who wanted a completely different dude is no longer interested. Additionally, you’re working against the clock - boredom and routine can set in easily. The only way to fight against this is to be an interesting person who does new things and adds value to someone’s life consistently

Sillysheila · 2023-08-19T01:56:49+00:00

Saying nobody owes sex in response to someone saying it’s reasonable to expect sex at least sometimes in a relationship is a bit of a non-sequitur. Of course no one should force themselves on their partner, but that doesn’t change the fact sex is important in most relationships.

If you expect someone to be sexually monogamous with you, and then don’t have any sex with them for no reason (I’m not talking about if you’re sick or just had a baby or something like that) and don’t wish to rectify this I dunno I think it’s a kind of cruelty to the other partner. I don’t like when people mix up wanting regular sex and forcing sex in the same line of thought.

Overarching_Chaos · 2023-08-19T02:01:25+00:00

Physical intimacy (not necessarily sex) and commitment are mutually built throughout the relationship, no one is owed anything. The more you familiarise with each other, the higher the degree of intimacy and commitment which is technically developed.

Just as a girl finds guys who push for sex after 2 dates annoying, we find it similarly annoying when a girl expects LTR-level commitment (and I don't mean monogamy, I refer to time and emotional investment) when we're dating for 2 weeks.

Opening_Tell9388 · 2023-08-18T16:04:10+00:00

Attraction is a big thing here.

Travel, try new shit, listen to new music, cook different food, explore sexuality. Sometimes shit can get stale. People stop wanting to eat the same stale white bread. Keep it picante.

This is what helps stop or delay dead bedrooms. Though we are humans and we are not used to monogamy and we are not used to living till we are fucking 80 lol.

No means no. Even if you're married.

RealAmericanWeasel · 2023-08-18T16:10:47+00:00

Prostitutes owe you sex if you pay them.

FineDevelopment00 · 2023-08-18T16:59:14+00:00

I don’t believe in sex outside of marriage I’d say this is even more applicable to marriage

Based; I'm opposed to sex outside of marriage too! I'd even go so far as to say the only time sex can actually be warranted is within marriage; no one ever owes a mere bf/gf or FWB or ONS or whatever sex because that is strictly reserved for marriage alone.

OTOH, the marital debt exists but it's not at all what a lot of people mistake it for (marital rape.) It's simply the acknowledgement that the married couple should both be considerate of each other's needs and act accordingly; neither should deprive (for frivolous reasons) nor ever force sex. When there's a conflict in this area, both spouses have the duty to cooperate with each other in making the healthiest decision for their marriage and each other's well-being must always be prominent in each other's mind so as to avoid selfishly using each other.

Help_Support-Account · 2023-08-18T19:48:45+00:00

Debates about these things are actually easily solved.

If someone does not want sex for whatever reason, and you do, with the reason being either impossible or not worthwile to be overcome TOGETHER, then you can just easily break up.

Obviously break ups aren't as easy when you are living together and having kids, but that comes with the territory. Thus independence and the ability to discard people should they not be able to meet the commitments that were made at the beginning of the relationship, should always be an option to be entertained.

shmupsy · 2023-08-18T19:15:30+00:00

I see a lot of replies in here really trying hard to frame the women who lose their drive as still the good guys.

Yes I get that it's a big problem out there with guys being shitty, but I really think that's a minority of cases. And of course kids get in the way.

I think we are deliberately trying to distract from the very common behavior of women to flood the man with sex in the beginning. This tells the man that this women likes sex just as much as him.

Then the woman pulls back after the 'honeymoon' is over. If you manage to talk about it, the man is told that there is actually a complex set of rules encompassing all aspects of their life together. He is expected to follow them, and still sex is not promised.

It's clear that women flood the man with sex when they are in the securing phase. Why do we have to deny this simple, primal thing, and create narratives that the man started doing something wrong along the way? Most of the time, the man is the same as he started. Life getting boring is not the man's fault, yet he is made to suffer for it.

One last footnote is that if the mental health of the woman is the cause, that's really not an excuse. And yet of course this depression we see pop up in women can go on for years because they don't want to work on themselves.

If you flooded him with sex in the beginning, you set the fucking standard, and it's on you to either keep it up, or work out an amicable compromise. But gaslighting is what I see instead.

dyngladfel · 2023-08-18T20:52:51+00:00

I imagine for a lot of couples, if one of them is pissed off at the other one it's going to put a lot of pressure on them. You say wanting sex doesn't make someone a bad partner, but I don't see how not wanting sex makes someone a bad partner.

slazengerx · 2023-08-18T17:56:38+00:00

if someone knew they were going to get into a dead bedroom they would never enter into that relationship

Dead bedroom is the norm, not the exception; it's a feature, not a bug. Eventually, anyway. It may take years or kids or a decade or whatever but... it's the norm. Humans aren't meant to stay attracted to each other sexually for decades on end. It should go without saying but of course there are exceptions. A lot of folks just accept this as a part of a long relationship in which there are other benefits (kids, companionship, stability, finances, etc) and others cheat.

Logical-Confection-7 · 2023-08-18T18:42:26+00:00

Is normal, and you have to options. You find common ground between the desire of your partner and yours, or then you just walk away. The problem is trying to guilt the other into giving up sex.

Vic_from_fallout_2 · 2023-08-19T05:23:35+00:00

Nobody owes anyone sex, and nobody owes anyone a continued relationship. Keeping a dead bedroom situation "alive" (undead?) is a symptom of bigger issues - poor communication, lack of confidence and being unable to compromise (or end it).

Like a few other people have said - the moment one person is profoundly unhappy in ways that are significantly harder to fix than finding someone new, the relationship is "totaled." Prolonging it is like driving a car with no windshield, missing a wheel, etc.

ThrowAwayBro737 · 2023-08-18T20:36:37+00:00

I don't see how this is even an issue. There are gives and takes in any relationship. If you value sex more than companionship and your partner isn't giving you sex, then you'll need to get sex somewhere else or leave the relationship. If you value companionship more than sex and your partner isn't giving you companionship, then you'll need to get companionship somewhere else or leave the relationship. It's not that hard.

This-Adhesiveness-52 · 2023-08-18T21:33:04+00:00

Reality is not pretty

There are many sexless relationships. The sex average is only 4 times a month, there more people below that average then above.

If you are in a relationship primarily to get sex on a regular basis you better not get married. Sexrate declines the longer you are together. Boredom of sleeping with the same person.

Women don’t share their resources only men do. You will have to pay most of the bills and other expenses.

Married and long term relationships cost men almost half of their monthly pay. For the average guy making around 2400 euro that somewhat around a 1000 euro. If you have children it’s 3/4 of you’re monthly pay that is gone.

The average price of a prostitute is around 70 to 100 euro so if you do the math that 10 to 13 prostitutes a month you can have for the same price as being married or in a long term relationship.

That is more sex then the 4 times a month on average most couples have !!! You don’t really gain anything, you at the mercy of you’re wife for sex supply or risk losing everything in divorce If you get caught cheating. Like i said reality is not pretty.

BeneficialRush4171 · 2023-08-18T18:04:00+00:00

I think once you’re married it’s normal to expect to be having sex at least once a day before you have kids at least. Probably after kids too though when they’re young it might be less often but it should still be often. I’d aim to still have sex everyday but you don’t know how the stress affects you until you get there.

BigVulvaEnergy · 2023-08-18T15:57:27+00:00

No. There's not a reasonable expectation.

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ornamentalwallpaper · 2023-08-19T04:19:23+00:00

Endure

basedmama21 · 2023-08-20T03:28:46+00:00

Agree. Should be happening at LEAST weekly. Even if you have kids. If she’s pregnant, 2X a month minimum. Pregnancy can get pretty brutal and cumbersome but it’s no reason to shut down everything imo.

nectarinepiss · 2023-08-20T04:31:06+00:00

99% of the time the party that’s “withholding sex” has reason other than just not feeling up to it if it’s a consistent problem . issues in the relationship and such .

H8beingmale · 2023-08-20T05:45:50+00:00

its like men have to earn sex more than women do

TheGoldenChampion · 2023-08-24T04:37:21+00:00

I’m a virgin with quite bad ED and this post is bullshit. It’s bullshit, women don’t care about sex. They can’t. They don’t. They don’t care. It’s just a man thing and I’ll get over it somehow. Somehow. Somehow. I will. Somehow. I will. I will.

Title	Nobody owes anyone sex, but it’s a reasonable expectation if there’s commitment
Author	HmanTheChicken
Upvotes	135
Comments	248
Date	August 18, 2023 3:48 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/15uo6sy/nobody_owes_anyone_sex_but_its_a_reasonable/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/nobody-owes-anyone-sex-but-its-a-reasonable.1228905 https://theredarchive.com/post/1228905

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