Essentially how it goes.

[–]EclipseClemens 508 points509 points510 points 12 years ago (307 children) | Copy Link

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I don't really see how this correlates to saving more money? Because someone MIGHT get pregnant, they MIGHT carry it to term, they MIGHT decide to not put it up for adoption, and they MIGHT be in a circumstance where they are not financially able to provide; that should definitely pay out of pocket and out these things into place? There needs to be more funding into the things that are already horribly underfunded in the Sexual health world. The fact that you have one wednesday every 6 weeks to even schedule an abortion right now because of doctor availability is pathetic. The fact I had to drive more then 35 miles because of the lack of available doctors in order to get something as simple as free condoms, the defunding and reduction of planed parenthoods as a whole in developed urban areas alone is more than alarming. I like in one of the biggest cities in the country. There is no reason I should have to rent a car and have to drive more than an hour for whats already "being provided". Im someone who has been on and off welfare for the last few years because of the industry I'm in. In that few years I had my daughter. We were on birth control at the time but because my wife only had her period once every 4 months due to the birth control, we didn't find out about our daughter until my wife was almost 22 weeks along. We had a choice to drive 640 miles and pay more then $1,200, carry her to term and adopt, or carry her to term and keep her. The choice was basically made for us. We would never agree to a second term abortion, nor did we have the money (Mind you this was a lowered fee based on our lack of income) and we didn't think my wife could handle adoption mentally. So guess what. We decided to have our daughter. 2 years later, most of the time with no working parents we almost never qualified for anything. Food stamps, discounted prescriptions, housing, TANIF, ANYTHING. We had to count on shelters to stay at, and flying a cardboard sign on a corner to get food.

My point is this, Sometimes good, hardworking people end up getting the shit end of a deal. Sometimes they try there hardest to make the circumstance they are in work. Sometimes it doesn't and they have to rely on the system thats in place to get by. When the system itself is a complete failure you can add as many social programs to it that you want, but unless things change internally those things won't benefit nearly the amount of people that you will end up being taxed for in the long run.

People tend to paint this caricature of what they imagine a welfare recipients to be. Most of the time its an ethnic mom with to many kids and to many luxuries "milking the system". Or maybe some teenage mom who had to drop out of school because she got pregnant. Who's mother takes care of the kid while she works some trivial burger flipping job.

I'm 28 years old. My wife is 27. We both come from middle class homes from Anywhere, USA. We both are college educated and skilled in artisan crafts. We both consider ourselves fairly level headed, responsible people. We both have payed into the tax system for the last 10+ years of our working lives and we felt it was only fair that in our time of need, we were cared for by at least the minimum from the government programs we have payed into. But that didn't happen.

And then you get to hop online and get belittled by someone about how you are spending "Their tax dollars." and you don't deserve this or that. Why doesn't anyone ever consider that the person in question might have worked there whole life, or might not be on welfare "forever". Why do people some how think that by offering anything for free, that somehow thats going to prevent _________. Education and access are the major factors to prevention. We are defunding the preventative measures and providing a "free" ticket to potentially save resources. While at the same time completely eliminating personal responsibility. How would this in any way save money? All I can imagine is the abortion rate climbing, the cost of abortions climbing, more tax money being sucked dry, and more people losing accountability for there actions, leading to an even higher increases in these procedures. It just sounds out of touch.

P.S. We got pregnant for our 2nd time this month. My wife had an abortion and it cost me $450. If you gave us a free abortion, I would have just gotten a PS4 with the money, and what would I have learned from all this?

[–]anachronic 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You could always do a "means test" for free abortions... like if you make less than $X in salary, so that people with funds have to pay for their own. This doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" kinda deal.

But either way, I still support government subsidized abortions because the cost to taxpayers for a single mom raising an unwanted kid is vastly higher than $450

The fact that you have one wednesday every 6 weeks to even schedule an abortion right now because of doctor availability is pathetic.

Exactly, it is... and it's the same exact people who are shutting down abortion clinics that are also trying to strip out government funding for BC and abortions and the "day after" pill to serve their insane religious agenda.

I'd rather pay a few extra bucks in taxes to ensure abortion remains safe and available for all than to nickel and dime it into non-existence.

If you are worried about government spending, so am I, but let's talk about the bloated and insanely wasteful defense budget if you wanna trim some fat... not reproductive rights.

[–]Hereforthefreecake -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a financial questionnaire that you have to fill out, being unemployed didn't qualify me for anything. Even with zero assets. Thats kind of the point I was making. You can pass anything you want with social programs, with doing so they will just narrow the field of qualified applicants down to nothing. Instead of splashing gas on a fire with the religious crowd by funding abortion directly, more funding should go into educating people and providing more clinics. Hopefully loosening the strict rigid guidelines that exist currently. You either have to have a medical condition or be underage to get a "free" anything. Simply being poor isn't a qualification anymore. Now raise spending by potentially millions with abortion, and that number will be cut down even more. Most likely to only life threatening situations. The more and more social spending goes into programs like this, the less and less people end up qualified to use them. As someone who has needed an abortion this month and is also fairly bad off right now, I still agree that I should be paying for my own abortions. With the way welfare programs are right now, I don't qualify for anything offered, even being homeless and broke. And adding more to these social programs will do nothing but lead to more cuts in more critical places. Its a really fickle topic without an easy answer. And Id love to live in a world where we didn't even have a defense budget, yet one that is as bloated as the one we have. But the facts are we spend a lot of money on progressing the profits of a few, and the more social programs we put in place, the less it spreads out. At some point you have to tell people no, and you have to let them deal with there consequences. At least in the current system we have in place. The current system is setting itself up to only serve the more fortunate, and a culling of the lower class extras has been in place for years now. But you know "Hey man you can't hate someone for being successful" and "You know if they didn't like there situation they could just get a better job" keeps us in the trenches slinging mud at each other.

[–]anachronic 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The people I'd like to tell "No" are the rich welfare queens paying 15% in capital gains tax when the rest of us ordinary folk are paying double that.

I'd like to revoke the mortgage deduction.

I'd like to stop lavish subsidies to companies like ConAgra and Monsanto.

The millionaire farmers who are paid to not grow crops... the bridges to nowhere... the fighter jets that get immediately junked after they're delivered because they were obsolete before they even came off the production line but we can't stop making them because the factory is in Senator so-and-so's state.

All that pork barrel crap that John McCain used to bitch about. I'd love to slash and burn it to the ground.

But social programs that try and help people's lives out are not where the knife should fall first. They're a drop in the bucket compared to all the other shady crap that we should be focusing on instead.

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Except for when women want to have a kid to gain significance in thier life when they haven't achieved anything else, (tends to happen in lower and or working class families at least in the UK). When they have a kid they are proud of being mothers and all that they achieved. Most men will pay for condoms but just offering it to women makes some men (some silly men) think that if a woman tells them they are on the pill they do not need to wrap it up. The government should pay for both sexes or none so it lessens the assumption that someone is on the contraceptives when they might not be. But that seems like a big cost to the tax payer to prevent silly people from having kids but it might pay off in less welfare benefits.

Sorry if this is really unclear, im exhausted after work, will edit for readability soon

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If the government mandates health insurance must pay for birth control, and you must have insurance or pay a fine, and then subsidizes the health insurance for those who cannot afford it, while maintaining that the insurance they are subsidizing must cover birth control...that seems like the government is in essence doing just that. Am I missing something? While not directly paying for it, it basically makes it impossible for the government to not use tax money to subsidize the cost of birth control. I mean, if I said "I didn't punch that man! This guy here did!" and then it was later on found out that I was twisting the arm of the guy I accused until he punched the man, it doesn't seem like it would be a stretch to say I was responsible for the guy getting punched.. Just asking an honest question, cause I'm wondering if I'm just missing something...

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[–]germaneuser 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I am talking about it. I never said it should be supported or opposed. Additionally, saying:

"...can you provide a reasonable argument as to why the government should pay $50, 000 for uninsured ER visits from pregnant women rather than $20 a month or less depending on the type of contraception?"

would seem to be begging the question. Do you have evidence to cite such a statistic to support your argument? Or are you just throwing out hypotheticals? More specifically, would publicly funding birth control guarantee that a $50K trip to the ER would not happen regularly regardless? Regardless of the answers to my hypothetical questions, I originally made my comment not to debate the merits of funding/not funding birth control. I was specifically wanting to get back to addressing the top comment's statement that the American government was not funding birth control, which to me does not appear to be entirely correct. My statement about an individual's right to argue the specifics of tax funding was just an observation - nothing more.

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"Yes you can say that taxes support the government which is charged with mandating coverage, but now we're getting into a chicken/egg argument"

I don't know how this is a chicken/egg argument. It is precisely clear the order of events here unlike the statement, 'Which came first, the chicken or the egg". The order is basically: "Government mandates that health insurance covers birth control" -> "Government states that individuals must buy health insurance" -> "For those who can't afford it, government subsidizes health insurance costs (so long as the insurance covers birth control)." Perhaps you mean a funds mixing argument? I.e. Taxes Fund -> Government -> Government does x,y,z. Since 'Taxes' are not going directly to x,y,z, taxes are therefore not funding x, y, z? That is the only thing I can get from the above statement. If that is the case then that seems like a rather disingenuous statement to make. I don't know - is that what you mean, or is it something else?

Edit: "Taxes aren't subsidizing the coverage of those entitled to free health care." So then, if someone cannot afford health insurance the health insurance companies are required to subsidize the cost for that individual? If this is the case then that is entirely different from what I've understood concerning the legislation. However, this wouldn't change the nature of my argument. If the government can use the force of law to force insurance companies to subsidize these costs, that's no different then "The person twisting the arm of someone to make them punch another man" argument stated above.

[–]joshgeek -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

No big surprise that I may be wrong, but how I explained it is how I understand it. Anyone who knows otherwise would be appreciated to explain it. Regardless of a direct tax fund as a source or private premium fees, the effect is the same. Some people are paying for other people's birth control, whether they approve of it or not. Personally this doesn't seem to be the worst thing in the world, but I can understand if some people are uncomfortable with the notion. Per the OP, I don't think people (male, female, or otherwise) should be ostracized for voicing their opinion on the matter.

*Edit- To attempt to clarify, I am unsure of how much the government will directly subsidize insurance companies who cover BC. But one can assume, knowing subsidies cover a mere percentage of normal rates of health care in our current system, that the insurance companies will not be compensated to the extent that they would be from a standard policy holder. Therefore they would have to make up the shortfall in some manner. The easiest and most likely way would be to increase rates for paying policy holders. I think this is why you see private insurance rates increasing rapidly at the moment. My own employer recently had to reduce the amount of coverage while increasing our deductible in order to keep the bump in insurance costs to a measly 20%. So that's my logic anyway.

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Wait, so a single guy can't get a woman pregnant? Why should women pay for prostate cancer treatments or other ailments that effect mostly men?

Or you just view it as blanket cancer treatments.

As a man, I can't understand why anyone would be against getting as many women on birth control as possible.

He literally just explained his position to you. It was 2 sentences long. Seriously. It's fine to disagree, but his position is obvious.

It makes sense for me to buy car insurance that would cover my medical bills in an accident. I'm not currently crashing my car, but it could happen. However I don't see the need to pay for Alzheimer coverage right now. Not just because I don't have it, but because I don't think I will get it for a long time. In 40 years, that's some coverage I'd want to pick up though.

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The same reason women should pay insurance that covers testicular cancer, and prostate exams. And men should pay insurance that cover gynecologists.

In fact the vast majority of thing health insurance covers you will not use, it's be impossible for you to get that sick and not die. I would rather have insurance that covers what I need and what everyone else needs when they need it, while being affordable to everyone. Bigger pools means bigger nominal profits for insurance companies.

I'd also rather not have your religious opinions affect how my healthcare is brought to me. As I'm sure you won't want mine to affect yours.

Edit: if you would rather have financial opinion. Birth control will mean less pregnancy and less births, which are very expensive for insurance companies and affect the price of insurance, if health care on whole on this issue is cheaper it will be cheaper to you. And if the insurance company spends less than 85% of the premiums on health care they will owe you a rebate.

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I get that argument, but that's hardly very controversial. It's more of a nuance of an individuals political views.

Condoms are not expensive the the pill isn't either. It's just weird having this conversation with Americans because I live in a nordic welfare state where birth control is not free, and nobody really thinks it should be free.

What happens here is that there is a lot of sexual education, so teenagers are aware of the risks and will prevent it. In the USA (and correct me if I'm wrong) sexual education is a very sensitive subject and not taught very widely. Might that be a more contributing factor to teenage pregnancies than a dollar for a condom?

At least where I live, it really doesn't come down to people not affording birth control. It's more about idiots being idiots and not using protection.

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We'd have an even lower one by not covering welfare/abortions too, so I'm not so sure it's that simple.

Society overall, not just the government.

Resources are limited. If people don't bear the consequences of bad decisions, and we force others to bear them, you remove many incentives for not making bad decisions.

When it comes to reducing the number and severity of bad decisions made, there's more than one way to go about that.

We can...

Change the consequences. (Handing out condoms is relatively cheap, and changes the consequences of poor people having sex.)
Make bad decisions inaccessible. (For example, making it illegal to sell rotten meat. This can sometimes result in a net increase in efficiency.)
Provide more information to make good decisions. (Education; requiring warning labels.)
Allow the consequences to hit. (This sometimes will result in negative consequences to those who didn't make the decision.)
Impose additional consequences. (As we do for crimes.)

Barring some pretty serious technological intervention, humans are always going to be at least somewhat stupid and irrational, and there's more information out there than any one person can reasonably process. (Even smart people are stupid some of the time.)

When we're making the decision on what balance of measures to use, it makes a difference what our motives are.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Make bad decisions inaccessible. (For example, making it illegal to sell rotten meat. This can sometimes result in a net increase in efficiency.)

That's virtually impossible though, and in the long term businesses won't go very far poisoning their customers.

Provide more information to make good decisions. (Education; requiring warning labels.)

Agreed here.

Allow the consequences to hit. (This sometimes will result in negative consequences to those who didn't make the decision.)

I agree we should try to internalize those externalities, but that would mean people would be bearing the decisions of their actions and not others(whereas forcing people to pay for others does make other pay for the consequences of the decision maker)

humans are always going to be at least somewhat stupid and irrational, and there's more information out there than any one person can reasonably process.

But that's okay. Prices of goods and services encapsulate that information. Prices can be distorted of course, but working to remove those distortions is an admirable goal.

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I don't see how that's not an egocentric argument?

Everyone is entitled to having their own opinion even if its selfish. There is absolutely no Ego here, you're just using a demeaning term for an argument you don't cherish. These don't necessarily have to be the opinions of scarce 'egocentric' religious individuals, this can be the platform of a church or a religious 'group'.

As a country as a whole its OUR tax money. And living in a country that loves majorities if other people think that "Free birth control" is right and is more beneficial to the country. What YOU, an individual thinks doesn't matter.

That's not how politics in the real world work. In a democracy you constantly have to barter, bargain and exchange with your political opponent. You can't just shut them up as convenient as that would be. These people never accepted that the government subsidize birth control and they never will, you cannot make that disappear.

Especially if your argument doesn't bring any positives to the table. Well except for "jesus aint like contraception".

You aren't so much in need of hearing an argument as you seem to be in need of being able to comprehend ideas that are different from yours. You really think these people against free birth control were just like "hey lets just be mean, egocentric and piss everyone off for no reason bwahaha !"

[–]ThatCoolBlackGuy 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"hey lets just be mean, egocentric and piss everyone off for no reason bwahaha !"

Uhm...yes? The people against birth control and gay marriage are on the same ship when it comes to that.

"I don't want my country to support no gay marriage what is this? A gay paradise?

against

"I don't want my money to go to no birth control"

When asked why the only argument here is "Well its against my Christian beliefs and what i stand for."

Take it as far as you will. But that is not an argument with any logical or beneficial basis. There are thousands of positives subsidized birth control can have for the nation.

There are literally no good arguments for the cause against it. None. Or at least you guys have a terrible time formulating a good one.

Relating to what you said here

Everyone is entitled to having their own opinion even if its selfish. There is absolutely no Ego here, you're just using a demeaning term for an argument you don't cherish. These don't necessarily have to be the opinions of scarce 'egocentric' religious individuals, this can be the platform of a church or a religious 'group'.

I couldn't understand the first part at all. Being selfish and egocentric is basically the same thing. They're synonyms for crying out loud.

I also don't see how a group of people can't be egocentric either?

Our christian value's goes against that. Why should our money go to something we're against?

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It depends on what you mean.

I think that having cheap/free sexual health prodcuts available for the young/poor is a great thing.

I do not think that using force to make everyone pay for it is a great thing. When you pay for something with tax dollars, you're essentially saying to everyone in your country "You must pay for this, or we will send men with guns to take you to jail. If you resist, they'll probably use those guns." On a certain level -- even if I think something is a GREAT idea -- I can't speak for everyone else in the country. So I'm not willing to use violence to make them pay for something just because I think is a great idea. I'm perfectly fine with nonprofits and groups getting together to provide such services -- I support them monetarily and with my time as a volunteer. But no, I don't think it's a good thing when you look at it from a "do the ends justify the means" perspective.

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long term birth control methods (IUD, implanon, depo shot, vasalgel) would be a much more reliable investment

True, but this still doesn't mean that they should be subsidized over and above other medicines for people other than the lowest income patients. Moreover, the issue here is that this isn't just medicine, it's social engineering that arguably grants freedoms and options to one group of people at the expense (financially and otherwise) of another. The trick is to improve the world without treating men as disposable pack animals. Basically, current birth control subsidies for women are like asking a man to buy you the boots that you're going to walk all over him with. He pays for you to not have a baby with him until you want to, at which point he gets no say in it. It's bullshit. It's not any sort of a human right that I am willing to recognize for women.

applications not related to contraceptive

Agreed, but for those applications they should be weighed equally against other people's medical needs and not taken for granted as a god-given right. Also, they should be weighed realistically against the environmental pollution they cause.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

people other than the lowest income patients

That actually doesn't bother me too much. If you can afford it, I think it's okay that you should pay for it. I personally like the idea of allowing subsidized access to anyone who wants it so that people don't have to weigh their reproductive health decisions against financial worries, even in the middle class. But I understand the logic.

it's social engineering that arguably grants freedoms and options to one group of people at the expense (financially and otherwise) of another

I just have trouble seeing it that way. I understand the argument - that it's a resource distribution from men to women - since all other things being held equal - women consume those services far more than men. But I see net benefits being provided to men as well - women with access to contraception means less unwanted pregnancies that can eventually hurt men that aren't ready for children. And, as men's birth control options increase, I believe they should be covered as well. I see this as more of a societal issue than a gendered issue.

Agreed, but for those applications they should be weighed equally against other people's medical needs and not taken for granted as a god-given right. Also, they should be weighed realistically against the environmental pollution they cause.

I have no problem with that argument. If a pill came out tomorrow that was cheaper and much more effective than birth control for treating things like PMDD or other hormonal issues, then birth control could be considered more for its contraceptive properties than its other medical uses. I hear you about the environmental pollution. I also worry about side effects to women themselves (I personally quit hormonal birth control because of negative side effects). But as it stands, even for its faults, the pill is still an important tool in reproductive health, and I still believe it should be included in any comprehensive health insurance plan.

[–]dungone 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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Yes, I see it as more of an exchange. Or rather, I see the ethical ramifications as outweighing the medical ones, because, in reality, they always do. If you look at a baseline society with no laws or social-engineering, any man could walk away from a pregnant woman consequence-free. The woman, in turn, could abandon the baby behind some bushes in the jungle and whatever snakes or lions would take care of the rest. Now that's free birth control and reproductive rights for all. The problem with out-of-wedlock births even in the Industrial Revolution wasn't that women were raising unwanted babies, but that they were throwing them out in the gutter along with piss and shit and other garbage. That's what caused the moral outrage, and of course, men got the blame for it as usual. For actual relationships, men with steady income used to get custody and did provide for children that they had agreed to father. That we completely flip this paradigm around by having men as a group subsidize women to walk away from pregnancy while denying men custody and yet preventing men from walking away is not only unnatural, but unprecedented in it's level of injustice.

Moreover, the reproductive issues are just a small part of the problem with subsidized healthcare for women. The broader social-engineering issue is that women consume more healthcare because they live longer at a higher standard of health than men. That's fine and dandy so long as women manage fully pay for their own healthcare, but the way I see it, women should actually be subsidizing men's.

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If you support equal access and equal funding, then you shouldn't support sexual discrimination and violation of 14th Amendment rights. Your suggestion is purely hypothetical, it's got very little to do with what's actually going on.

There are three issues of fairness here that are not being addressed. First issue is that there does not exist equal funding or equal access to healthcare for men and women. Women pay far less per unit of healthcare over their lifetime than men, even if there is no greater social good to justify it (e.g. breast cancer vs prostate cancer). And this is going to be even worse going forward. Second issue is who subsidizes it - men. Even supposing that all healthcare should be equally available to all people, the question of which pays how much for which other group still has to be dealt with. Thirdly, supposing there is actually a greater social good for extra above-and-beyond subsidies for female birth control, it still has to be settled just which women actually need to receive these subsidies to manifest that benefit and, considering that men ultimately have worse health, live shorter, and pay part of women's healthcare needs instead of their own - what should men get in return? Why should men be forced to pay child support if they're already paying for women to have all the birth control options that money can buy?

[–]CAMYtheCOCONUT 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So you're saying that we should pay tax dollars for condoms and pills that fail and that people won't use anyway because they lie about it? Weird. I'm not even sure you support what you want to be handed to you.

And I'd imagine that a baby on the way would either make the parents take some responsibility and get their act together or put him in the custody of someone else like a grandparent or a foster home. Or maybe they'll abort it which they should pay for too.

Or we could fix it altogether and have them either not have sex or pay for the proper means of protection and prevention so that they can partake in those activities. There's also this handy thing they can buy called the morning-after-pill just in case they're not sure. Bottom line: I'm not going to compensate for people's lack of judgement when they bang through taxes. Either be prepared or don't have sex.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Here is the thing. You already compensate people for their lack of planning when having sex. All those single moms on welfare? Yep. You pay for that. Those kids that end up in foster care from parents that didnt plan on having kids? Yep. You pay for that. The men that end up in prison from committing crimes for money to suppprt kids they didn't plan for? Yep. You pay for that. Handicapped kids of druggie parents tha tneed expensive special teachers in school? Yep. You already pay for that.

Dont you think paying for birth control, morning after pills, etc for these people and preventing all these problems in the first place would be cheaper in the long run? You talk about planningnahead but your opinion is very short sighted. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with economics.

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I have a better Idea How about we quit subsidizing stupid altogether? You know get rid of the incentive to have a brood when you cant afford one? Hell maybe then fathers would have an incentive to stick around and they would be appreciated because the nanny state is not going to raise their children. How about we get rid of minimum wage laws that create unemployment for the under qualified? Oh, how about we stop subsidizing crappy state schools that do not care about the children, indoctrinating them with a awful victimhood propaganda and rewarding the schools who most underachieve with more grants? I have another good idea how about we end the "war on drugs" and stop trafficking crap into these communities and then turning around and throwing these non-violent offenders in jail creating a police state and civil unrest in the communities?

s

Ahhh fuck it after all the bottom line is what is best for the Nobility who thinks they can socially engineer everything. So let's not question any of it. After all who wants to see those dirty niggers and peasants breeding anyway?

/s

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I'd bet one reason red states get more than they pay is that they're anti-birth control. That means more unwanted children and more poverty, less social mobility and all that fun stuff.

And this,

Married men do benefit from having their wives' birth control subsidized, but single men do not.

You know how often this sub talks about (single) men that are forced to pay for children they don't want? They'd definitely benefit from free birth control. More birth control means fewer cases where financial abortions are wanted.

... and it means they don't need to pay as much to the red welfare states to cover their expenses, either.

You know who would best be able to calculate these total costs for you? Actuaries. Like the ones who work at health insurance companies. Those companies were eager to accept the new mandate to provide birth control. They know it is cheaper. For all of us.

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It is very desirable for the men's rights movement! It should cover birth control for both men and women in my opinion. The reasoning is very simple, so everyone has the tools to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

If you complain about government providing birth control then it leads me to believe you are against other forms of public welfare. Look at it this way though, if there is a cut in unwanted pregnancies there will more than likely also be a downward trend in welfare spending as a whole.

Most unwanted pregnancies that occur due to not having birth control happen to people on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. Providing those people with birth control they may not be able to afford will mean less unwanted kids. Less unwanted kids will mean less benefits going out to help needy families. It also frees up resources that would have been spent by the parents on the unwanted child to go towards other activities. They may advance themselves as a person be able to contribute more to society.

The reason it is important to men's rights is because it cuts down on child support the man would be forced into paying. There will be less weddings of obligation that lead to legal disaster more often than not for men.

All around government supplied birth control would be a good thing at a lower cost than the alternative of not having it.

[–]dungone 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It should cover birth control for both men and women in my opinion.

It does not. We're not talking about what it should be, but about what it is.

If you complain about government providing birth control then it leads me to believe you are against other forms of public welfare.

That's a huge and wholly unsubstantiated appeal to consequences.

Most unwanted pregnancies that occur due to not having birth

You shouldn't call them "unwanted" just because you don't want other people to have them; those people have made a choice to have them; in fact they made a series of choices to have them. Most unwanted pregnancies happen because of a lack of "suitable" breadwinner men. Women are not having babies that they did not choose to have; they're choosing to have babies in spite of choosing not to ensure that those babies have a father. Most women who have these kids don't actually have health insurance, anyway. The subsidies are going to relatively rich women and at times are paid for by uninsured working class men who end up having these unwanted babies with uninsured lower class women. So you see, you've got the whole thing backwards. I never said that I was against providing birth control to low-income women as a form of welfare. But that's an entirely different issue from men paying for women's healthcare just in general, just because they're women, regardless of their income.

The reason it is important to men's rights is because it cuts down on child support

This argument is so flawed it borders on the extortionist. Men being saddled with child support for children they never agreed to have is the very reason why men subsidizing women's birth control is so incredibly unjust. The child support system and family law are morally corrupt, broken systems that are actually causing more harm than good. We can certainly start by fixing those if we want to help our society.

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For the people that truly try and conceptualize feminism as "equality for everyone", what they hear you say is "I disagree with the idea of equality". Not "I disagree with your approach to discussing and solving gender-related problems."

It's unfortunate, but layman feminism (equality for women... and presumably men too?) and academic feminism (patriarchy theory, kyriarchy, rape culture, toxic masculinity, etc.) are going to get confused in the mind of most people you talk to. They think you're talking about their feel good brand of "Women should get paid the same as men and have reproductive rights and not be sexually harassed" feminism. Stuff everyone agrees with (whether you attribute any wage gap that exists to discrimination or economic choice, nobody in the gender equality sphere believes that anyone should be paid less for the same work).

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The problem with the whole small government argument is that it's inconsistently applied. Going after things like birth control, abortion clinics, Public radio, etc. These are not fiscally significant cuts. They are fighting tooth and nail over what is essentially pennies, while ignoring huge elephants in the room. They are political attacks designed to defund the things their opponents support.

Whenever you hear some politician making a huge ruckus over something that fiscally trivial for a state or federal government just replace the argument with: "This is a political agenda to defund things I don't like."

The fewer children people from financially strained families have, the less money taxpayers will have to pay supporting them down the road (18 years of public school, food stamps, welfare, prison?). If anything, we should be doing more to encourage these people to use more birth control. It would be the fiscally wise decision, but you wont see them do it because the whole fiscal responsibility is too often just a convenient argument to push their beliefs on reproductive rights.

So why waste so much effort and time on something so cheap and arguably cost saving, when there are so many better ways to cut costs.

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Title	Essentially how it goes.
Author	C0ltFury
Upvotes	841
Comments	467
Date	November 11, 2013 12:48 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1qdfpw/essentially_how_it_goes/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/essentially-how-it-goes.1159096 https://theredarchive.com/post/1159096

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