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[–]343_peaches_and_tea72 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Bi man in the UK.
I see about as many men I find attractive as I do women.
I will add though that I think lots of men don't put on weight as well as women do. I'm in an area of the UK which is generally in shape. When both sexes are in shape, I find things are more even.
Athletic women = Athletic men. Chubby women > chubby men.
IMO.
[–]Urbantexasguy30 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As a straight guy, I always enjoy hearing what bi/gay guys have to say on male appearance. It can be insightful at times.
I agree that men don't distribute and carry fat as well as women. Fat storage and distribution are somewhat sexually dimorphous traits. I think nature definitely intended men to be leaner than women, for a variety of reasons.
[–]FunnyElegance2115 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I feel better when a gay guy tells me I look good because gay guys have much better ability confidence to express their emotions
[–]simeneta_two20 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That’s because some women can still keep an hourglass shape at higher weights but on men excess fat goes immediately to their stomach.
[–]Hoopy2236 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Chubby guys can be handsome too; big smile, big beard etc. Like a big ole teddy bear in need of a hug.
Personality wise I meet a lot more guys who are fun to be around, friendly, helpful etc than women. Women (esp younger) seem to be a lot more standoffish, judgmental and angry. Bitchy all the time for no reason/blame everybody else for everything.
My ex had it made (hot, rich family) and yet she was never happy and I never understood it.
[–]throwawaylessons1032 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I never understood it
Attractive people have a lot more people who put them on a pedestal so there's less incentive to be a good person.
But also, platonically interacting with men vs sexually is different. I find women, on average, more empathetic and nurturing, but I've also dated women so I know they're not all sunshine and rainbows.
[–]343_peaches_and_tea2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Chubby guys can be handsome too;
Oh for sure. I'm mostly talking about on average and for me personally. There are definitely guys who are a bit overweight who I find attractive. I do think they tend to be on the "stockier" side though. I find if you have a broader frame then you can carry a little bit of weight okay.
Guys with some muscle and fat are most attractive than fat alone. Beards can be very much hit or miss depending on how thick or wispy they are.
It's really difficult though. After spending time on this sub I've done more people watching to see what things I find attractive. Every time I feel I have some intuition, there's someone who comes along and I'm all "oh, maybe I was wrong about that".
[–]TodTheRod012 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
the fun to be around and etc part is 10000%
[–]Hoopy2233 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Girls can be fun too but its more conditional.
On average they are not as much as dudes....PART of why you see women have men friends more than you see men have female friends.
[–]Hoopy2232 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well as a guy if I meet a girl I really like then I enjoy our time together but otherwise its kind of draining compared to just hanging out with the guys.
thank you for proving my point
[–]redkoicarp5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I will add though that I think lots of men don't put on weight as well as women do.
Maybe true on average. But I also think that some men put on weight better than other men. Mostly, a tall build and good clothes can suit you well when you're heavier.
[–]gmoney92_3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sounds like you just like tall guys whether they're fat or not and short guys only if they're not fat.
[–]gmoney92_5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is actually a scientific fact in terms of fat storage and actually somewhat of an embarrassing reason as to why it's easier for women to stay in shape than men. The lower back and gut are the first place a male body will store fat. For women, it is the last place. It's possible for a man with a gut to be perfectly healthy. A woman with a significant gut is much more likely to have moderate to severe underlying health issues.
[–]Great-Beyond91474 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'd say it's somewhat balanced out by the fact that women naturally hold on to more fat, so getting really fit can be harder. It's also a reason men tend to not live as long, because weight gain with age is very common and for men it just goes right by your heart and lungs and stuff, so it can cause them to fail faster than for women
[–]gmoney92_0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Subcutaneous fat is easier to burn fat.
[–]randomnightly3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've heard the opposite, that women have fat mostly outside their stomach (and it is unlikely for a woman to have a big belly anyway unless she is obese), but men have it around their internal organs where it is very unhealthy.
[–]gmoney92_1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Women store more of what is known as subcutaneous fat, which is healthier fat. Men store more visceral fat. That's true, but fat storage patterns are different than fat balance. When men put on external/subcutaneous fat, it stores on the lower body, primarily the lower back and gut area, first. When women put on fat, it goes to their arms, butt, legs, and chest before it stores on the gut. This is why women show abs at higher body fat percentages than men.
[–]NefariousnessStreet92 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's not easier for women to stay in shape than men. It's much easier for men to build muscle, and they have narrower hips which is better for running.
Good shape has a different definition for women than it does for men. Women do not need to show abs to be considered in good shape. Yes the presence of testosterone helps build muscle faster, but nobody considers the jacked woman the epitome of female physique. Being at 18% body fat for a woman is pretty damn achievable. The biggest problem in general that women have maintaining a healthy body weight is that most women don't meet their daily protein requirements, which causes their body to starve and thus store fat. It's not because they aren't putting on enough muscle.
[–]NefariousnessStreet91 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Oh you meant literal shape, not health/fitness. Either way, the rest of your comment reveals your ignorance.
How so? The majority of women that are overweight are actual malnourished. This isn't me being ignorant as much as its me sharing a fact with you. Lots of women avoid carbs and eat insufficient amount of protein. So many women are actually at a caloric deficit, but because their macronutrients are so out of wack their body stores fat because it worries about not having access to food later. When you don't eat enough protein, your body pulls that nutrition from muscle. When your only source of protein is from plants or dairy, weak protein sources, your body depletes it's micronutrients to try and convert it to human protein, but can't after a certain point.
It's super common and not that hard to fix for people that suffer from this, but it takes time. You can certainly get fat while not eating enough, if you're putting the wrong balance of nutrients in your body. This is why it's super common for overweight people to also be very fragile. Their muscles act as their bodies man protein source.
Lots of women avoid carbs and eat insufficient amount of protein. So many women are actually at a caloric deficit, but because their macronutrients are so out of wack their body stores fat because it worries about not having access to food later. When you don't eat enough protein, your body pulls that nutrition from muscle. When your only source of protein is from plants or dairy, weak protein sources, your body depletes it's micronutrients to try and convert it to human protein, but can't after a certain point.
I'm very concerned about where you're getting your information
[–]randomnightly1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think it really depends on your body type. Some women gain fat in their ass, boobs and upper legs and look relatively skinny or even athletic when they are overweight. And there are women who look stubby, even if their BMI classifies them as underweight. For instance, they have broad shoulders, bigger arms and stumpy legs.
Looks are not the same as fitness. In fact, the most unhealthy type of fat is the type that doesn't show on the outside
I'm not arguing with that, on the contrary, some people can look attractive, while being not healthy, only because of their body type.
[–]MonkeyThrowing1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yea I noticed that too. Men tend to have a fat belly. Women gain weight all over building out a nice shapely ass and firm breast.
[–]randomnightly0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Probably because it is healthy for women to have a higher fat percentage than men, even if they are both skinny or have normal weight. Usually the fat around the stomach is the unhealthiest and it is more common in men. Maybe people have evolved to avoid being in attracted to those who have big stomachs (pregnant or unhealthy).
[–]MalePsychopath57 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average man and the average woman are not attractive. They are forgettable. They have neutral looks. That’s what "average" means.
If I walk past an average person, I can’t remember what they looked like after a minute. I just don’t notice them.
Men and women who are so beautiful that they catch my eye are rare. Maybe 10%.
[–]AcanthocephalaLost7714 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am attracted to the average woman. When I was on dating apps about 2 out of 3 was a right swipe.
[–]Intrepid_Place53909 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
agree that very attractive people catch your eye normally, they stand out.
I also think very good personalities, happy people, great smile and attitude also stand out.
[–]MalePsychopath11 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I agree. I knew a girl in college like that. She was a real wallflower but incredibly sweet and warm. Always positive and smiling. I liked her a lot.
[–]decoy887 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sounds like you’re describing the Traffic Light system of attraction.
[–]MalePsychopath1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah, exactly this.
Have you been to the DMV? It’s a leper colony down there.
[–]sex_is_dirty2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know. I always felt so at home at renewal time.
[–]Grantmepm1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average male is also 36 years old in the USA.
[–]supercreativenamelol1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ngl, I would consider some celebrities average and forgettable
at the same time, statistically "average" face is what people consider the most attractive. Imperfections cancel each other out, the resulting face is harmonious and proportional.
In physical attractiveness studies, averageness describes the physical beauty that results from averaging the facial features of people of the same gender and approximately the same age.[1][2][3][4] The majority of averageness studies have focused on photographic overlay studies of human faces, in which images are morphed together. The term "average" is used strictly to denote the technical definition of the mathematical mean. An averaged face is not unremarkable, but is, in fact, quite good looking. Nor is it typical in the sense of common or frequently occurring in the population, though it appears familiar, and is typical in the sense that it is a good example of a face that is representative of the category of faces.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averageness
Here, the generated images of average faces are prettier than the original images (exactly because imperfections will be cancelled out): https://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-plots-the-average-face-of-sydney--and-the-rest-of-the-world-20110211-1ap3w.html
This isn't what people usually think when they say "an average face" though. They mean the most common face that has imperfections but isn't ugly. Which is what you probably meant.
[–]FenaPugi34 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I do genuinely think most men are/ can be attractive.
We're just not incentivised when growing up to care much about our appearance as we're vehemently told to just stay somewhat clean or do the bare minimum to look halfway decent.
If men were taught about skincare and self-care then I'm sure it would become more like 60/40, so there'd be healthy competition between men at the very least.
I think everyone (women for the most part but also men) is still hung up on men being emasculated for learning about self-care (especially in western countries). It really is an obscure juxtaposition for wanting men to look good but no one incentivises men to take time to learn about it or teach men, and do so without having prejudice of thinking a man will be 'emasculated' for learning about it.
[–][deleted]21 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Go on a skin care or hair care sub and you’ll find the women are very supportive and encouraging to men who ask for advice.
I grabbed a bar of mens soap. When I used it it was dark blue and had a really weird shape. I found out later it was shaped like a gun grip. So who knows where the men can’t use products to take good care of themselves idea comes from. It could be marketing to keep men and women from buying the same stuff so there are more customers.
I know it’s not your average man or woman who thinks a guys balls drop off if his soap doesn’t resemble a weapon.
[–]SirTruffleberry1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Interesting. It generally costs more to have different packaging for near-identical products, though. Was there a price difference compared to the female version?
[–]SpicySinnersSandwich-1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They'll also think you're gay as hell though. If you were to ever mention to a woman that you have a skin care routine, even if it was casual and on-top to a discussion, she'll think you're gay like on the spot.
[–]PreparationWorried334 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You don’t have to tell her what you’re doing. Most people care about the results not the process. Most men don’t care to hear about their female partners balayage, steam treatments, wax appointments, esthetician trips or if they’re picking a coffin nail vs a square nail etc. All they care about is how good she looks at the end of it all.
[–]AGORAPHOBIC-ECSTACY0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The difference is men don’t get turned off by the female grooming process but women do at the male grooming process because women favour immutable traits.
[–]Salt_Mathematician247 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Bullshit. Kpop stars wear make up and they have an international army of simping fangirls. I dont know where you guys get this from. Either stereotypes, other men or presupposing based on things you've heard.
Women are far more open to pretty and well groomed men than straight men are. They're the ones who will bully each other for it lol.
[–]AGORAPHOBIC-ECSTACY1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
GIRLS are attracted to kpop stars, not women.
[–]Salt_Mathematician242 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Average age of a kpop fan is 23 (Google it). Optimal age according to trp.
Sounds like a girl to me.
Yeah, I felt the same way when I was younger, liked more feminine looking guys and boys. Now I find them pretty but like a gay friend that I'm not attracted to.
[–]PreparationWorried332 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Maybe this was true 10+ years ago but for people under 30 this is normalized now. Skin care, nail care, hair care etc for men is normalized and makeup for men will be next in the coming years.
Also once again, she can’t be turned off if she doesn’t know. You don’t have to tell anyone why you look so good. The results are all that matter not the process.
Your second paragraph is exactly my point. Men have to hide the process and women don’t because we expect men to be at their peak “naturally.” Yet women can alter their faces with paint and we have to pretend like they don’t.
[–]PreparationWorried331 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You don’t have to pretend like anything. Women get made fun of all the time for wearing makeup and getting plastic surgery and they get put down for not being natural. At the end of the day though, results trump the process. Men who look better after their self care routines see a boost in attention they receive. Regardless of what judgement they may or may not receive for the routine itself. Because no one really cares. All that matters is whether or not it made you look better.
Women get made fun of for bad makeup and bad surgery. Men get made fun of for partaking at all. I’ve seen male wig videos on female social media pages and the comments are filled with visceral disgust. I’ve brought a girl home and ended up turning her off because she saw my serums and eyebrow tweezer. This isn’t my opinion. There’s definitely women who aren’t this braindead but I have yet to meet any in my age bracket.
If it’s bad they get made fun of by both men and women. If it’s good but it made them look drastically different than what they looked like before surgery/makeup they will get made fun of by men for being “fake” and put down in favor of natural beauties. Most people don’t view good looks as authentic unless it’s cosmetic free(outside of basic hygiene like shampoo, body wash etc).
As I keep saying though at the end of the day no one has to know what your beauty routine entails. You don’t have to go blabbing about what you do. All that really matters is if you look good after all that effort and expense. If you do, you will get the reactions you want and no one will have to be aware of what you did to achieve it.
[–][deleted]3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hit on women with clogged pores and skin that needs exfoliating or be thought of as gay. That’s tough alright.
I don't agree with the premise that being well-kept means folks will assume you're gay.
However, playing along with that premise, surely being perceived as gay defeats the point of hitting on women in the first place. You want to be taken seriously as a potential mate, after all.
I agree.
women for the most part
Not sure about this part. I think women are more likely to be attracted to men that have "prettier" looks and even wear make up (kpop, anyone?). Its the men around us that kick off at these type of men calling them "gaaaay" and "girls" etc enough to scare us out of it by the time we reach adulthood. I think its disingenuous to claim it's mainly women. I think women appreciate effemicacy in men a lot more than straight OR gay men (known for their masc4masc culture) do, dudes really seem to really worship hyper masculinity, alpha/beta crap.
[–]FenaPugi3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Didn't mean to come off as disingenuous, so I apologise for that and I do appreciate the valid points you brought up with kpop, the in-group bias men have towards calling each other gay and hypermasculinity (alpha/beta).
My main reasoning for that was because of the overwhelming amount of trads in society, even in western countries (where atheism is just barely becoming the norm) of whom push gender roles and conformity of such; CCP China has even just recently banned feminine presenting men on mainstream media.
More often than not means men will get the "man up" treatment from their caregivers/ peers for (but not limited to) skincare or self-care pretty early on in life and push them away from the idea of it.
[–]Salt_Mathematician248 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Your response was more balanced and honest than the average poster here, so don't worry too much. You're right that they'll get the "man up" treatment by both genders. I just think we need to look at where this originates from.
I find China banning feminine-presenting men very interesting because it begs the question, why did those men ever become popular in the first place? From my observations it was because those men were attractive and marketable to a female audience. Just check out this list;
https://kingchoice.me/the-100-most-handsome-men-in-the-world-2021/
It has quite a few of these "pretty boy" chinese actors and media figures ranked pretty high.
The Chinese censorship reminds me of western conservative and right wingers complaining about the "feminization of men" but they never really touch of why it is happening. Supposing it is just a nefarious leftist agenda to destroy civilization when in fact a lot of these men become popular because of capitalism and the female libido. It's no coincidence that liberation and empowerment of women coincidences with this.
[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I agree.. men don't understand how much women are into feminine/androgynous guys. This is my gut feeling really but I think the more comfortable and financially stable women are, the less they pick hypermasculine men. Many not all women but a larger subset than men probably suspect.
It's weird that some men worry about being effeminate or "looking gay" for dressing too well because many women actually LIKE men in certain styles and nice hair and a skincare routine. Just generally gay men are more attractive to women than straight men are, so idk why they worry.
[–]Salt_Mathematician245 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It really is a mindfuck. Men seem to not want to be attractive to women on their terms, they want to decide what is attractive to them.
All I could put this down do is men's fear of being treat like women have. Fear of being objectified, fear of being vulnerable, fear of ever taking on a submissive dynamic both in sexual relations or in culture. I can understand a little but they're assuming it will automatically put them at risk of exploitation when there isn't any evidence and also is revealing with how much the average man isnt projecting this insecurity into empathizing with women and common feminist talking points.
If they can act like women are naturally predisposed to their "place", it's easier to never listen to complaints put forth by being in the position they seem to fear the most.
[–]pm_me_hairy_nudes2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah I see that too especially with the "women like assholes" thing. The redpill guys want the moral high ground and to victim blame and to be assholes themselves, so they try SO hard to believe women are into assholes (wouldn't that be a mental health/self esteem issue if this was actually the case?). And not a single one has a study or poll or hard evidence to prove this happens significantly.
They want attention, sex, and validation from women, while still maintaining superiority by objectifying, disrespecting, double standard slut shaming, and keeping women away from male dominated spaces when they're not horny, while being negative about the entire gender.
some of those guys are masculine looking tbh, it's just their makeup is feminine but their bone structure is definitely masculine
[–]Salt_Mathematician241 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
When I say feminine, I'm referring to the original comment of men less likely to beautify themselves or wear make up because of restrictive standards. Masculinity in of itself can be very subjective and open to interpretation and social circumstance.
I wouldn't call their bone structure necessarily "masculinity", the have the typical oval shaped faces which high cheekbones which are universally preferred among men and women. Not honking great square jaws. You can achieve this sort of face shape with contouring and highlighting make up, which these stars do.
i had no idea that was universally preferred. I'm a guy with diamond face shape and high cheekbones, is that good or bad?
[–]oedipascourage2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
At least you are aware that effeminacy is a surface variable that adds to good genetics - K-pop, anyone?
[–]Salt_Mathematician243 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Kpop stars wear make up and the features they are reknown for that are commonly associated are what one would typically ascribe to being more feminine - soft clear skin, plump lips, oval faces and doll-like and "cute" features. Their hair is glistening, thick, soft, often styled and sometimes dyed and bleached. They wear flowers and jewellery. I could go on.
https://www.google.com/search?q=kpop+boys&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivnx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXiefkubD1AhWPN8AKHc2qDpUQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=670&dpr=2.63
And "good genetics". Gimme a break with that cope. Don't blackpillers have a sub-catergory called "ricepill" which claims asian men have inferior and less masculine genetics by default. Keep reaching to confirm your circlejerk colorblind worldview pal.
[–]oedipascourage3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You didn't even read what I said throughly and steered the conveesation to somewhere else. They make - like they make them do more - K-pop stars wear make-up, before and more importantly, which is my point, they handpick them according to not personality but looks and in this extreme cases mostly genetical variables matter: They are outputs of a system that has an aim to affect us to and profit from it. You using them as an example for average man to observe is blatantly bizarre and has no merits if we are talking about the average anyway since average women do not even prefer that style but sub groups might do.
And please do not assume all the people on the internet is as you think they are. You come off more dogmatic then me assuming I'm blackpilled but I guess that's what people do: hitting below the belt while they subcounciosly know that they do not make sense in a way to win a debate.
[–]Salt_Mathematician244 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You're using blackpill arguments of immutable characteristics which I know for a fact is horseshit. Any woman knows for a fact this is false because we learn from a young age how to use make up to enhance and conceal features. For example, I would say kpop stars are relatively plain on their own, but, lemme let you in on a little secret 98% of women all know, did you know you can use make up, like contour and highlighting to give the illusion of good bone structure? On top of that they use contacts and eye shadow to draw attention to their eyes, they even dye their hair and grow and style it to an attractive length instead of buzzing it all off. Hair styles can also do wonders for your face shape.
What if I say blackpill uses my arguments? I do not have models that I make my life revolve around.
Please, are we really going to try to consider personal arguments (I think they are plain) and targeted generalizations (women do know that and their subculture allows them so men could do it too) as arguments to zoom in on?
Immutable characteristics are - for a fact - bullshit huh? Try getting to 6" with make-up from 5"1. Try growing hair with make-up to shape it after becoming bald in 18 even though multiple attempts has already failed. And I'm not gonna bother conceptualizing your easy make-up solution in male context since It doesn't fit the preferred male template and no it's not just because of the male population.
The current mating context (biology, and interlinked culture parts) allows women to reach the set low bar easily and it is not as easy for men. That's it. It doesn't mean that we as men should not do something about it - since you call everyone stating these lazy: It just means that these are as objective as they get.
[–]RydrSmalls2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
did you know you can use make up, like contour and highlighting to give the illusion of good bone structure
That wouldn't really work on male faces as much as you think it would. Besides, women would be weirded out by men who wear makeup and wouldn't date them.
Hair styles can also do wonders for your face shape.
Again, overexaggerated and requires a man to have (quality) hair in the first place. I lost most of my hair early so that's not an option for me.
Some women might be at first, others would like it and probably even offer to teach you. But with time it would just be normalized. And if you do it really well, it wouldn't be noticiable.
True about the hair but wigs these days are super cheap. In the UK you can get a real looking one for like £10 off Shein.
[–]RydrSmalls1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
But with time it would just be normalized.
But the point is that right now it isn't. Right no, if you wanted as a man to improve your looks with makeup and told women that, you'd get mostly weird looks. And last, but not least, makeup is temporary. It doesn't change your looks and many women would get shocked after seeing that guy who is an 8 go back to a 5 after washing off makeup, just as much as men are shocked whem women do it.
True about the hair but wigs these days are super cheap.
Wait, I thought men are supposed to be confident about their lack of hair? Wouldn't wigs signify insecurity and alert women to steer away? That's what women told me. Besides, I'm not going to wear a damn wig. The £10 one you mentioned must look terrible and shows you know nothing about it. The actually good-looking wigs are costly and high-maintenance. Besides, I wonder how women would react after learning her bf actually has a wig and hides a bald head underneath.
[–]Scarypaperplates6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think this is slowly changing now however with male grooming becoming more promoted.
[–]TodTheRod014 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
skin care is the least of the western worlds worries when it comes to emasculating men...way worse shit...
[–]divingrose771014 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am constantly trying to get my son to care about hygiene. He is resisting a nightly skin care regimen. Any ideas how to convince him of the benefits?
[–]assdreads4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I agree with everything you've said except for saying that the majority of people who are hung up on men being emasculated for self-care are women. On any social media platform, or even in your friends you'll see women puttin make up on guys, doing their self-care routines, begging them to dress nicely and use decent cologne. If anything, I've only ever seen men being hung up on it saying that "It's gay"
[–]y2kjanelle2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Beautiful comment!
I can assure 100% that it wouldn't be "60/40" if men started doing skincare. Male attractiveness is also about height, bone structure, coloring, voice and many other things that are genetic. Women don't have to worry about any of that, they just have to be of normal weight and they're a 7 to most men. Add makeup and gym and most women can be a 9. For men it works nothing like that.
[–]goochiegg2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Makeup won't make me tall, and handsome 😂
[–]Intrepid_Place539021 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The avg guy in the US, is fat, dresses like a slob, has no confidence and spends most of his free time on watching/following sports or playing video games
The avg woman in the US is fat, bitchy, entitled and spends more money than she has.
So, they both are not attractive. How's that?
[–]Ray2020K2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well said and accurate.
[–]Electronic_Leave_47717 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As a guy most other men I see are ugly I don't think it's any wonder why girls don't want to date any of them.
[–]WilliamWyattD14 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't believe that the 80/20 rules is strictly true. However, it seems clear that women's attraction to men has a different distribution curve than the other way around.
The exact reasons are likely a complex mix of factors. Dealing strictly with the physical aspect of attraction, Women are naturally more selective and hypergamous due to greater investment in sex. Women have less raw libido, which includes less testosterone. Women also work harder on their appearance. Declining Male testosterone levels may matter. Obesity may suit women better than men. Finally, it is not out of the question that women are in some ways absolutely more attractive than men, with greater selection pressure (historically) on female beauty.
And of course, physical appearance is only one part of attraction. But today's society puts more and more value on it.
And I think I do a pretty good job of being able to see men and women through fairly neutral eyes, even though I am heterosexual. I do think women look better than men, and that is even after compensating for make up as best I can.
[–]E-2-butene8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Finally, it is not out of the question that women are in some ways absolutely more attractive than men, with greater selection pressure (historically) on female beauty.
Ugh, sorry, but this is my biggest pet peeve on this subject.
On a population level, men and women share genes, so any selection for broadly attractive traits like facial symmetry or high cheekbones is going to become more prevalent in men as well, even if women are the primary target of selection on a reproductive level.
Only exceptions are going to be dimorphic traits like height or facial masculinity, but at least the latter actually doesn’t appear to exert as strong of an effect on total attraction as one might think. It only seems to matter once other baseline attractive features are established, which should be shared on a population level.
Imo the difference in perceived attractiveness almost entirely comes down to female pickiness and exclusive female access to beauty enhancers like makeup.
[–]WilliamWyattD5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You've raised a common argument. I'm not an evolutionary expert, but I've personally heard mixed opinions from experts on this.
You could be right, but both evolution and beauty are complex. So I do not think it is out of the question that there could be a way for sexual selection and evolution in general to increase the physical attractiveness of one gender compared to the other, over time.
[–]E-2-butene3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yea, that’s true, beauty and evolution are definitely complex. I’ve got some background in evo bio, but I’m not a credentialed expert on that subject in particular.
If you have a source on an expert objecting to this line of thinking, I’d be interested in seeing it. It really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless you could isolate out features that are only attractive in one sex and also shown to be a major determinant factor in total attractiveness.
[–]throwawaylessons1035 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thanks for being honest on your perspective :)
I'll preface this with, I think both the average man and woman (in the US especially) are not very attractive. Being overweight/almost obese isn't attractive. Being unkempt isn't attractive.
But I'm a bi woman, and when I go out into the world, I simply see more physically attractive women than I do men. My opinion is, I think there's A LOT more female "7s and 8s" than there are men who fit into those categories.
I'll admit that it's easier to become a 7 or 8 as a woman, and we have more tools at our disposal. But I think this greatly contributes to the unequal distribution curve - even my straight guy friends joke about "the only guy they'd go gay for" which is usually a Chad, and most straight women I talk to also say they find more women attractive than men.
[–]superincongruent3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
My opinion is, I think there's A LOT more female "7s and 8s" than there are men who fit into those categories.
Especially true among younger people. I didn't really get it when I was young, but men place a huge value on youth. So say an "average" college girl has a lot of men desiring her and therefore SMV. A lot of guys don't seen to get she's not their looks-match.
By age 30 or so enough people have gotten fat it evens out more.
[–]WilliamWyattD2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sexual selection works both ways, even if female selection is much stronger. I've seen the hypothesis raised even by scientists that since men were selecting almost entirely for beauty, while women were selecting for a mix of qualities, women evolved to be more attractive than men in some absolute sense. This would not be surprising.
But then technology changes the world, diminishing the value of those other male qualities and thus raising the relative importance of male beauty. But evolution has not caught up yet.
Also, as you mention, women put more work into looking good and currently have more tools. Finally, while extra weight impacts both genders, it could well be that it impacts male beauty more, especially now that we have such extremely cut and muscled men as celebrities and models setting new standards. Nothing in nature is every perfectly equal.
That said, it's hard to be certain. Some of this could be built in female selectivity. Bisexual women may look at men and women using different programming as male sexuality is much more dangerous to women (pregnancy).
[–]Bandit1748 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If women are more beautiful and that is the reason for the discrepancy in attraction I think it's important to break down which specific aspects of beauty they are better in and whether or not those are the reasons women find men unnatractive.
Like a lot of women here say they find more women attractive, but if you took an average woman they find attractive and created a male version with those same traits they probably wouldn't find him attractive. I think its more that the standards or thresholds to be considered attractive as a man are just higher. Right of the bat we can easily say height matters more for men than for women so that's immediately one trait where men are undeniably judged on more harshly in regards to attraction.
[–]WilliamWyattD4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Given the complexity of 'beauty' and evolution, it's unclear how well we can do what you suggest. It would be great if we could, but I'm not sure we can.
That's why I tend to just list it as a possibility. I'm an amateur in all of this, but I've never seen anything definitive on whether women have evolved to be more physically attractive than men in some absolute way. I just think that at this point we cannot dismiss the possibility.
[–]Bandit1746 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The only traits I could see them being better in are skin quality and hair (ie they dont go bald and have less body hair)
They do not seem to have significantly different rates of obesity.
They also do not seem to have significantly better rates of facial symmetry although that's harder to quantify.
The standards are just more strict.The acceptable height and weight range for men is more narrow as is the criteria for having a good jawline.
I think the crux of it is when women judge male attractiveness they are judging it from the perspective of "are his genes worthy of suffering 9 months of pregnancy and possibly dieing" and when they judge female attractiveness its just "is she not completely disgusting"
It's simple. Women wear makeup. Google before vs after results and see how much it can change their faces. From a 4 to a 9. Men can't do that.
[–]Inevitable_Review6730 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Obviously you’ll see more 7s and 8s for females because you’re likely overrating their actual beauty when they use makeup and women tend to be affected less by weight gain as they tend to store it in traditionally attractive areas such as their butt, hips and boobs as a byproduct of estrogen.
Men rely strictly on genetical features with no makeup or filter whatsoever, in before you say men can use makeup it’s a certain death sentence as a man because women consider you feminine if used. Men need an average to tall height most of the time unless their face is very attractive to compensate for it like Daniel Radcliffe, men cannot wear makeup to make their faces look frauded so they rely on having proper bone development to give them a jawline, cheekbones, good eyes; to top all of this off you need a good body and it’s very genetical on how much you grow and women have unrealistic expectations of NATURAL gym results vs what they see on social media from male models who take Steroids and inject testosterone to grow muscle and get to single digit body fat, this is simply not possible for males and muscle growth is painfully slow naturally.
The beauty standards for women are going down if anything with body positivity and makeup while beauty standards for men are higher than ever before and it’s all genetically tied, you cannot do anything about it. Examples: go search plus size model and find me 1 man who fits this profile
[–]Intrepid_Place53902 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
women have a very health libido, for the right type of guys
[–]mairomaster2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Nah, that's a commonly used bullshit statement IMO. Many women just have low libido, that's it. It doesn't fucking matter if you put Jason Momoa in front of them, they will still have low libido. Sure, they will be more motivated/excited to fuck him because of all the fame/status/looks, etc. but that doesn't instantly make them into crazy wild bitches in bed.
[–]Intrepid_Place53901 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
uhmm, well in my case, and actual experience. I disagree
[–]NephilimXXXX1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Funny enough, I happened to be looking at reddit while not logged in the other day. I stumbled on a post in /asexuality and quite a few women were talking about being asexual and how their mothers were telling them things like (paraphrasing) "women don't have sexual desire, what you're describing (asexuality) is just the natural state for women, but men are horny". Thought it was interesting that there are apparently enough women with no libidos that some women actually think it's normal and common for women to lack sexual desire.
Look it up on the asexuality subreddit if you don't believe me.
Edit: it was on the asexuality subreddit, not asexual. The post is titled:
"Nobody actually feels sexual attraction" - my mom
(Not sure if I can post links to other subreddits.)
One of the top comments:
She told me "Sexual attraction is something that men experience regularly but very few women do. The media over-sexualises everything(true), women don't usually think about sex at all. You are just normal. I never really liked anyone until I met your dad and I only started liking him after I got to know him better." And then the finale: "At least if you don't feel attracted to people, you are less likely to cheat on someone, which makes life less complicated for you" Basically saying that I am lucky I don't have to worry about pesky sexual attraction...
[–]TodTheRod011 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
i'll disagree on women working harder on their appearance...if they did women's obesity rate would be much lower than men's.
they work at COSMETIC things...that take money more than anything...makeup, haircuts and flattering clothing....
[–]daddysgotanew11 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average man is as good as the average woman. The problem is that average men are happy with average women, while average women only want top tier men.
I know of plenty of men who dress well, groom well, are 5’9 to 5’11, have good careers, own cars and houses, are educated and well spoken, in good shape; who struggle with women because they don’t have top tier looks. It’s very hard for them and they end up dating down in looks and weight
[–]Intrepid_Place539010 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ok, so I'm having a hard time with this.
(dress well, groom well, avg height, good careers, cars/house, educated, in good shape) and struggle with women.
c'mon, be honest. Struggle with women who's smv is above them is probably it?
I think it's normal for men to have a woman who's their smv or -1, up to -2 below them. The woman should make up for it with RMV.
I find it hard to believe if a guy has all of that (truly has all of that), but maybe is not muscular or not the best looking guy, that he has a hard time finding a girl his smv or -1. In the 20-30 age group, maybe, because girls are mostly just having fun, but above that age hard to believe for me.
[–]AidsVictim4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ok, so I'm having a hard time with this. (dress well, groom well, avg height, good careers, cars/house, educated, in good shape) and struggle with women. c'mon, be honest. Struggle with women who's smv is above them is probably it?
It's more likely these men just aren't in the self selecting social circles where they would meet their "looksmatch" (or are out "outcompeted" by the men in said social circle ). Women don't want to socialize with or meet these men unless they already have social value, all the "beta" stuff is worthless in that case.
Men typically have to go below their looksmatch when using OLD while they can get their match or better socializing. The obvious thing to do then is start socializing, but modern America is a fundamentally anti social and socially bifurcated place (i.e. it's very difficult to enter or build social circles in adult life)
[–]Sad_Top17432 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just wait until you’re over 30 bro lol
[–]Intrepid_Place53903 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
yup, I'm way over that, so tough for me to see this perspective.
but still, I see young people walking around/dating, who are near the same smv, and guys who are totally avg, with girls who are avg. still think it's a bit exaggerated.
[–]Sad_Top17431 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
By compensating in other departments. When you’re younger it’s mostly about looks and status for women but the older they get other variables like finances come into play.
[–]openthecannedpeaches1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You can't be serious.
[–]daddysgotanew3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I’m very serious. Chances are you know men like this too. It’s something that is only talked about in confidence but it is real
[–]openthecannedpeaches3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I guess so, but in my experience, these people have issues man, deep issues. It has nothing to do with looks or money.
[–]daddysgotanew2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Their only crime is not being facially appealing enough in a tik tok/Instagram obsessed world
[–]openthecannedpeaches6 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sorry, i just can't relate to what you're saying. If i had my own appartment, at say 23 i would have been swimming in pussy. And i'm not Chris hemsworth. Sex is easy, if you're decent looking, you're financially stable, and you don't have a mental health condition(s).
[–]daddysgotanew4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If only that were true
[–]Mustbeaight1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Lol the key is « decent looking » devil in the details
[–]Zerofication10 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average man has no problem dating the average woman, it's the average woman who has a problem dating the average man.
I think men could do with stepping up their looks game, in all honestly. Getting braver with it.
[–]Zerofication1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So the average man has to become not so average just to have a shot with average women.
No, but they need to stop shying away from make up,, hair and beauty. Universal enhancement and peacocking tools.
[–]oedipascourage-1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Madam, you have just worded what he said differently - and added a context.
Nope. He ignored the context of my comment where I said men should get braver with appearance enhancing products and just cried the same old "b-but genetics". Dumb and lazy.
[–]Mustbeaight0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You don’t step up genetics. You get what you get
Absolute rubbish. I cant believe you've all actually convinced yourself of this. Women with any objectively unattractive facial feature correct and conceal with make up. You guys are showcasing your laziness and stupidity whenever you say this to a woman because we know better.
[–]Mustbeaight2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Lol you really believe for one second a guy would have any success wearing make up? All he’d achieve is to be seen as gay by WOMEN
« Hey bestie I love your makeup »😂
Women often fall for gay men.
[–]oedipascourage0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Our ideal male template of the culture doesn't contain such easy solutions as make-up, sorry.
[–]Salt_Mathematician240 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So do something about it.
[–]oedipascourage1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It takes time, fortunately, since when things are better you'll have a perspective to steer you while moving forward through a sea of red flags. I wish the most women the same time frame in some way for their own good.
[–]TheMorningJoe3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
^
[–]goneaway2thewind7 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Tbh, not really. It seems so polarized between guys who barely try and complete overdone looksmaxxing guys.
[–]1master_dom1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How can you overdo looksmaxxing?
[–]Bandit1745 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not attracted to any men but in terms of general looks I don't think the average man is significantly worse looking than the average woman. There might be some discrepancy in looks but not enough to justify the discrepancy in how men rank women and how women rank men.
I think women just have stricter criteria for evaluating men than women.
[–]throwawaylessons1033 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Right. But what % of men do you find attractive based on looks alone?
When I say "attractive," I don't mean you personally want to have sex with them as a straight person. More so, just noticing that they have attractive physical features, sometimes even wishing you looked more like them.
[–]Bandit1743 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Maybe 20 - 30% But that doesn't mean I view guys below that threshold as ugly.
Thats the real difference. Men view maybe 40 - 50% women as ok and maybe 20% as really attractive meanwhile women view most men as ugly and maybe 20% as ok and 5% as really attractive.
[–]lulll4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
i find them about as attractive as the women i see
[–]throwawaylessons1036 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So what % would that be?
[–]lulll1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
more % than the average FDS womans body fat
[–]Matt_Door3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
80/20 as in “80% of men are having zero sex”? No, I don’t believe that. Is it 20% of guys get 80% of the casual sex, hmm I’d say it’s pretty close, but 20% guy isn’t necessarily chiseled jaw hunter eyes dude, he’s the guy with the drugs and/or is a party-club scene insider (DJ, promoter, etc) and is a complete social animal and dumpster diver, too
That said, there’s a lot of decent to good lucking dudes out there. You say look at the WalMart aisles, what about the gym, or the construction site?
[–]the-4th-survivor3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I feel like the 80-20 rule is legit because in my experience the majority of guys aren't attractive. Granted I'm a straight man so that makes me biased but I can usually tell if a guy is objectively attractive or not and most guys I see are pretty average looking. If not 80-20 it's at least 70-30.
[–]Visible-Doughnut-7823 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It depends what you mean by attractive?
If 20 percent of men are deemed “attractive” by woman I would say men would likely also deem only 20 percent of woman conventionally attractive. If “attractive” means “good looking” rather than “average looking” than it stands to reason only 20 percent( for both genders) would be deemed as “attractive” by the other. Other wise the rules of “average” don’t work.
The crucial distinction is just because a guy doesn’t find a woman conveniently “attractive” doesn’t mean he doesn’t find her “fuckable”. An average looking woman is still generally more “attractive” than his right hand.
Guys aren’t walking down the street looking at every girl he sees thinking “oh my God she’s so hot”. He is however probably thinking that he’d fuck her given the opportunity.
Woman are just much more selective with who they fuck. It stands to reason that Woman only focus in on the top 20 percent of guys- even if they are nowhere near the top 20 percent of Woman themselves- as there is still a very real possibility those top 20 percent guys will still fuck them.
[–]MarBitt2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes, I find most men attractive at least in certain situations or some of their characteristics.
I sometimes find charismatic men more attractive than top-looking women, they attract more of my attention, for example in movies and the like, it is easier for me to remember them, their actions affect me more. But it can also be that female roles are often boring and flat.
I'm not complaining about the 80/20 rule, I don't believe in it much.
I find it interesting you say even you are more attracted to charismatic men, because when women say they can't accurately access their attraction to men based on a few photos alone, the general consensus is because "we don't actually find them attractive"
Men don't turn me on. So I rate attraction by the amount of attention, how strongly it affects me and how I remember a man / woman. Or what I find "objectively" nicer. And I prefer hardness, sharp shapes, strength, performance.
[–]RahLyt3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is so true it fucked me up during my early school years, all of my friends are talking about the girls I'm more mesmerised about how cool the main guy sounded saying some random quotable. Really question my sexuality because apparently I was supposed to notice some random hot background girl.
As elementary school boys, we found girls boring and annoying most of the time. And we definitely talked about and imitated more male than female characters. There was talk of exposed breasts and erotic scenes, but because it was something from the adult world, forbidden, adventurous.
[–]wingsandeyes2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I find the average men by definition average or average looking. They are neither ugly or attractive, just average.
If you were a woman, would you be attracted to most men you came across?
It would depend on a plethora of things. Research shows that personality, income and status all play a significant role in male attractiveness when viewed by women. It would also depend on how large the pool for available mates may be, if I lived in a town to 2000 I might find an average joe to be pretty damn good but f I resided in a metropolis and received dozens, of OLD or IG DM's daily I might find them particularly lowly.
Do you also find the "average" man attractive? (In the US, this is a guy who's 5'9 and almost obese according to BMI)
No but I believe that they should be a fine match for he "average" woman, who would be 5'4 and have a BMI almost identical to her male counterpart.
[–]nick18122162 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don’t know, but I know I’m unattractive. I guess I just accept the 80/20. I don’t resent women for it. I’d do the same. I also wouldn’t want to date me! I work on myself, live healthy, have a good career, work out, try to dress nice, etc…
It’s going to be a lonely life, but at least it’ll be a comfortable one
（´＿｀）
[–]dres_sler2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
All I can say is that I’ve been shocked on numerous occasions hearing women say that a random guy I pointed out was “ugly” to them.
My friend also called super man a 5. A FIVE. SUPERMAN.
HENRY CAVILL.
[–]Icy_Consideration9051 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
well how much do you rate her??
[–]AreOut2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
since I am not competent to rate male attractiveness I just pay attention to where girls are looking
it's certainly much less than 20%, maybe even only 2% of men are viscerally desired by girls
[–]vGiber2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It’s no longer 80/20, it’s 95/5
[–]PMmeareasontolive2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average man is as attractive as the average woman. I tend not to rate people in real life but I've done some comparisons using pictures in school yearbooks, and they both grade out the same.
[–]gmoney92_2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I guess I don't apply because I don't believe in this bullshit rule. I think most humans have the ability to be attractive as long as they invest time in their health and appearance. Most men who bitch about 80/20 don't understand that most women look like wombats in the morning and they literally spend 2 hours getting their shit together before letting the sunlight grace their skin. Most men role out of bed and spend 30 minutes or less pulling themselves together before getting their day started. If men put in an equal amount of energy they would be competitively attractive. The fact that they don't might indicate that men are actually generally more attractive than women.
[–]Tek_Analyst2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I used to live in a very sex filled city. I always felt like there was a lot of competition due to it, but never a feeling of they were more attractive.
After moving for work reasons, there’s like zero competition. Of course I’m in a LTR, so it doesn’t matter as much. But from my POV, the answer is no. Most men seem unattractive, and very much uncaring about their appearance.
[–]RRBeachFG22 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No they aren’t, but most women aren’t either
[–]Sadboiurbex2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Straight ish guy from UK, I can look at a lad and go he's a good looking dude without actually been attracted to them if that makes sense
[–]Capable_Dark2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Absolutely. the average man has never looked better
[–]simppymcsimp2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No to both genders
[–]lolomotif122 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm a heterosexual man, attractive men do not often hit my radar because its not something I'm consciously looking for. However, I can appreciate when a man dresses well, or is groomed, in shape or just good looking but I do not look at them in a sexual way or grade them in a sexual way as I would a woman. It's just "bro" appreciation, if that makes sense.
[–]rivetcitymayor2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wish I could post my pic for y’all to understand that even if you are pretty good looking, great shape, good fashion, it’s still not easy for guys lol
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[–]LalaTheSecond8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
These guys can't answer a simple question.
[–]flapperfemmefatale11 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm also noticing this. If they don't find the average man attractive, why the fuck should we?
They are either avoiding saying that men are exactly as ugly as we think they are or they are worried about looking too gay.
[–]reLincolnX2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You're saying the 80/20 is true.
[–]LalaTheSecond5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah but not everyone's 20 is the same.
Because you're average yourself maybe.
[–]flapperfemmefatale8 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why does that make a difference? What I find attractive in a person has nothing to do with how attractive I am.
[–]TodTheRod010 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
kind of....
the point is that AVERAGE women...aren't attracted to AVERAGE men....they are looksmatched....yet AVERAGE women think AVERAGE men are BELOW them....and that they deserve ABOVE average or top tier men...
almost EVERYONE is agreeing that AVERAGE women AND men are not overly attractive...
[–]flapperfemmefatale4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So why would you date someone you don't find attractive? It sounds like men are just mad that women aren't as desperate lol
[–]TodTheRod01-2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
your take from that is that women aren't desperate but men are...
Am I the only one in this thread who thinks thats a REALLY fucked up take from that....holy shit
[–]flapperfemmefatale2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You're saying women should date men they aren't attracted to, just because they're their "looksmatch."
not at all what i said....go back and read it...nowhere did i say that....
[–]poppy_blu3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because you refuse to accept that women don’t think like men
that doesnt even come into play....
[–]poppy_blu2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
🤦♀️
because you are OVER simplifying the question...and being disingenuous.
The question is pretty simple. You see a person, and they're either attractive or they aren't.
Asked and answered.
[–]poppy_blu1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Inb4 all my friends are attractive but they never get dates
[–]heyitsjeape1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I can’t tell if other men are attractive or not.
[–]wtknight1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No. I don’t even find attractive men that attractive, although I can appreciate good muscle definition. I’m not sure what women see in men, but a few of them have been attracted to me anyway so that’s good for me.
[–]-passepar2t-1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, I don't find men attractive.
[–]Shredddz1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
no, I would say men who I could picture next to attractive women are as rare as the women, I would even say its more rare to see a good looking women but Im ofcourse biased because I cant rank more precisely than objectively good looking physical attributes. Beyond objective traits I compare them to the boyfriends of good looking girls to get a better idea, but in general I would say the distribution is equal, just like logic and genetics would predict.
[–]Square_Inflation_5341 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have no idea I've never looked at most men on the street like that
[–]abaxeron1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If I was a single woman and had 100% control over STIs and pregnancy, I'd probably have already fucked every man in my entire company at this point and went for the second round in alphabetical order.
[–]bubble_gummmmm7 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, you probably wouldn't. If you become a woman, you wouldn't have the same sex drive that you have now as a man.
[–]ahandtoyourdarknessx1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I find most men attractive enough. I find very few men attractive enough that I’d feel comfortable commenting about. And to be honest I find very few women to be attractive enough to release that dopamine feeling just from looking at them, but at the same time there are many girls who while they aren’t breathtaking, I still find them very pretty and would go out with them.
I’m a straight male, and I have no problem admitting if a guy looks physically attractive because anyone who can’t recognize what is considered attractive is lying to themselves.
I think that is the problem and the most frustrating thing about 80/20 if it’s true. Is that women don’t have the same opinion. It’s either a guy is gorgeous or he is a "hotdog on the ground covered in hair outside of a 7/11"
It’s like a binary for them. Like just because a girl isn’t interested in me doesn’t make me a fricking hotdog on the ground. I’m cute enough to be a consideration at least
[–]toasterchild1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm a woman and can't deny this is a thing. I know it's not usually just a physical looks thing but that is how i feel towards men. Either something you have catches my attention or i feel absolutely nothing.
It could be your smile, the way you talk, looks, charisma, but there has to be something i click to. For me it's often a certain sense of humor, i know it doesn't happen very often.
We don't choose to be this way, it's probably something related to hormones.
[–]mairomaster0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Is that women don’t have the same opinion. It’s either a guy is gorgeous or he is a "hotdog on the ground covered in hair outside of a 7/11"
That's a great point actually. I've noticed that as well. Guys seem to be a lot more objective at judging looks and having considerations. For the girls it's often either they will screw you right away or they give so little shit about you that you are basically none existent to them.
[–]NockerJoe1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The average woman in the U.S. is like 4 inches shorter but even more likley to be obese in the U.S. so I don't think body fat really weighs into the decsion making process that much.
[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
My question for the men here is... Walking down the street, at the park, at Walmart, on dating apps from "the other side"... Looking at all the men, do you find the majority of them attractive? If you were a woman, would you be attracted to most men you came across?
I don't notice them. But if I were to look, I would recognize more attractive men than women do. It would still adhere to 80/20. The majority of men aren't very attractive. And I would be looking solely at his looks. A woman is going to be looking at style as well. And height. For me, height and style won't even enter the picture. I would factor in style and grooming if it was extremely poor. But if I see a dude in cheap, ill-fitting clothes, I can still recognize if he has a good bone structure and/or a good build. But a woman's attraction is largely arbitrary.
We literally just had a woman on PPD telling people that even though she likes fishing, she rejects guys with fish and boats anywhere in their profiles. Specifically, this was called one of her "red flags."
I don't use BMI as it's a useless metric. For men or women. I've heard plenty of out-of-shape women be like "But my BMI says I'm at a healthy weight!"
[–]NMFlamez1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This isnt the right question to prove your point.
[–]AidsVictim1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Do you also find the "average" man attractive?
Not really, although I wouldn't say they're ugly either. They're more or less their female looksmatch. It's purely a libido/sex characteristics things that makes women more attractive.
Location and places you go to can play a huge role, because if you go to the gym constantly or clubs/bars that cater to a hotter demographic, your "stats" are likely skewed.
Most women and men in the gym are not especially attractive IME although it's also one of the few places you consistently see 8+ of either sex.
i'm going to put it this way...
the average man is on par with the average woman...
THAT's the issue....the thing is AVERAGE women think they are out of the league of AVERAGE men....and that they deserve above average.
if we're talking average in terms of statistics height and weight....avg men are on par with avg women...now if you said avg in terms of 1-10 looks wise....what i personally consider a 5, MANY people don't hit that...if you're more than like 10-20lbs overweight to me you automatically are below a 5...
I see more ugly in the face women then I do see avg in the face men personally...I think a lot of men could look better by just dressing better thats a major issue in my opinion and its not like every guy has to go out and buy a suit.
I see more guys who are chubby then i do see guys who are flat out obese or jacked....but i see more women who are straight up obese.
I'm purposefully discounting the gym (since I am there a fuckton, and I go to a hardcore gym with athletes not a normal ppl gym)
I find neither the avg 5'4 fat chick meh chicks, nor the 5'9 fat meh dudes attractive....
I cant with this dishonesty. The same men who say this are the same "ewww men. No homo" types. You dont think men are attractive and you dont think they should be. You never self-relect.
WHAT THE FUCK....where did i say ewww no homo or that ALL men are not attractive...you are FULL OF SHIT.
"You dont think men are attractive and you dont think they should be."
THIS WHOLE sentence is bullshit that i NEVER said...you are extrapolating from i don't fucking know where...but I hate LIARS and people who try to put words in my mouth...
Lol.
[–]koolex1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think part of the disconnect is with dieting, makeup, grooming, and stylish clothes I feel like almost all women can be very physically attractive, but a lot of physical male attractiveness comes down to height and facial features, so biology dominates effort. Style is easier for men than women, but developing muscles is way harder than just being skinny.
I feel like being a very attractive man requires biology and a significant amount of perseverance but I feel like being attractive as a woman is totally obtainable for most women. It probably comes down to will power to diet and a desire to look good but its totally obtainable if it was her goal.
It's a blessing that women are also very attracted to masculine traits so that men can make up for our biological limitations, we don't have make up to cover up for being short.
All that being said, I would say that women who are in as good of shape me or better are physically attractive at least 50% of the time. I think you'll see this 80/20 rule as common as you'll see men with a 50/50 rule which shows up in OLD swiping data.
[–]Paleo_Con1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
People in the comments trying to deboonk a statistic(80/20) with personal experience and subjective opinion to cope, typical reddit cringe.
[–]Traditional_Job24671 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's more than what you think on just appearance with the 80/20 rule that even anyone who thinks it's about appearance and attractiveness is only scratching the surface
[–]Ray2020K1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am a heterosexual male and have not complained about the 80/20 rule. But do believe their is hypergamy and both genders try to date out of their league.
No I don't think I would be attracted to most men I came across.
However, if all men put the same amount of time, money and attention on their physical appearance as women do then it would be different.
Funny question. There is research on Online dating where females ideally prefer males with a BMI of 27 which is overweight. And males ideally prefer females with a BMI of 17.
Christian Rudder is a co-founder of OKCupid and published research date about the website in a book titled Dataclysm. When asked about the dating habits for the gay community he responded that "men act like men and women act like women."
[–]Youngrazzy1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What makes us attractive as men is not our looks. Its our status most of the men that are seen as attractive would not get the same attention if they did not have status l
[–]NoMarriageNoKids1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Straight man here; Male attractiveness to women is a combination of things. Looks, physical stature, fitness, hygiene, attire, financial well doing, the vehicle you drive, charisma, status, etc.
So, I'd say that a charismatic personality goes a long way. It can overcome some obstacles because I find that women are easily charmed. But, don't neglect the basics of fitness, attire, and your ride.
Add an interesting or exciting hobby like music and some sports.
[–]none_theWiser1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Beautiful people exist, period.
[–]VelveetaIsBae1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
We just want a man who brushes his teeth twice a day, flosses daily, and washes his butt crack daily.
[–]Suitable_Gear_61971 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If a man isn't fat? Yes If he's fat and has some type of beard? Yes
[–]sex_is_dirty1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've always thought that there were more attractive men about than attractive woman. Put another way, there are more good looking guys than good looking girls.
Is having a basic sense of aesthetics gay?
[–]ffandyy1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No one would say a majority are attractive, but I’d say ark east 30% are, and probably a solid 30% are just normal looking
[–]AloneOnTheStrange1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
From what I hear and experience from gay men, they find a lot more men attractive than women do.
It's just that men and women see attraction so differently. A woman will disregard the majority of men just from height, income, social status, and preselection. Whereas a man won't even consider those things.
[–]BennyHillThemeStops1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Most average men in my area are not unattractive and are not grotesque. I did a tinder experiment years ago to see what the male competition is like.
I saw very few guys who I thought couldn't ever get laid based on their physical looks alone. Their crappy photos as well as their bios made them a lot more unattractive.
[–]AggroWeasel1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Men, on the whole, are more attractive than women.
It’s astonishing how much false advertising women use.
There are VERY few women that look good naked with no makeup. VERY few.
I think there is a difference between finding someone attractive personally and rating their looks based on how pretty they look compared to the others. For instance, I can rate feminine looking gay men or 10 year old girls highly, without being the least attracted to them. If I'm looking through that lens, I think that almost all women are prettier than almost all men because their faces are more harmonious and fluid. Testosterone can make male faces more attractive for me personally, but if I'm thinking nonsexually, only aesthetically, then feminine faces are more pleasant to look at. I definitely notice more women and girls or feminine looking guys (not looking like women, sometimes just younger) walking around than adult masculine men. I am never attracted to them though, only admiring their faces aesthetically and their style.
[–]EstablishmentKooky500 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think, objectively the avarage guy is just as attractive as the avarage girl. The reason for the confusion is that guys are more then willing to date down (more so then women), especially if it's just about sex, and this gives a sense of abundance that makes the avg girls beleive that they are more attractive then the avarage dudes.
If we talk about weight, guys in the US are more likely to be overweight, but women are more likely to be obese or severely obese. In the UK, women are leading the statistics from overweight to severely obese.
[–]Lezonidas0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The problem is that non attractive women can easily find a partner while non attractive men cannot (or they have to lower their standards too much)
Also speaking about what I see in the streets, when I was 18, yes, women were way more attractive than men on average, now that Im 34, men look more attractive on average than women. Also their interests and hobbies are worse and more expensive, and they feel more entitled to everything, which makes the experience of spending time with them worse than with men. That's basically why I stopped dating 2 years ago and I have never felt better and more stable. The only con of this sexless and dateless life is that I will not have children, something I'd have loved, but I have one nephew, that'll do.
[–]MR_Shigitoshi0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The complaint is women should feel comfortable and satisfied with their looksmatch vs them feeling like they reluctantly settled because they had a bunch of ONS on Tinder with better looking people
Do you guys sit with a woman on a date and think, man she's not as fit as Anna next door was at 18? Is your whole life just a comparison sheet of people you've known?
I've never known anyone closely who think like this.
[–]AramisNight0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have yet to ever see an attractive man. My only barometer for male attractiveness is how long i can stand to look at them before my last meal tries to come up.
[–]sunkized0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As a lesbian I think most men look normal. It blows my mind how picky straight women are
[–]Complete-Temporary-60 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not attracted to men.
[–]ogsimpology0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
10% are attractive simply physically. Maybe an additional 10-20% could be like "hey, they look presentable", but nothing you'd turn your head to.
Men aren't sexually appealing creatures based on looks alone most of the time. It's character/wealth/fame/ comedic sense/social intelligence/intelligence/charm, that gets them women.
The only reason men are butt hurt over it is because we like average women based of just looks alone aswell, whereas women would need a supplement with an average men to go along with.
[–]SirTruffleberry0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The question is circular. When you say I can objectively identify attractive men, you're really just saying I know which men women will find attractive. How does it add anything to the discussion to ask my opinion when it is just my best attempt to copy and paste women's opinions that you've already heard?
[–]And_Rue-2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No, I don't find the average man attractive.
However, why should that matter to me, as a heterosexual male?
Do I need to find an average man attractive to observe the ridiculousness of a mediocre woman feeling deserving of a partnership with an above average man?
I don't "complain" about 80/20, as it's beneficial to a subset of men, but I do have an issue with the gynocentric, unrealistic, conflicting beliefs that result. It's mathematically impossible for a woman to be both attracted to a small subset of men (when she herself isn't in a small subset of women) and believe in monogamy/committed relationships/marriage. Go support polygamy or buy some cats.
[–]LalaTheSecond2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I knew it
The fact that you dont, should matter. I think most women can see attractiveness in other women but men think they have to be ugly to themselves to be attractive to women lol.
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[–]EstablishmentKooky500 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Lezonidas0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MR_Shigitoshi0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]toasterchild1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AramisNight0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sunkized0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Complete-Temporary-60 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ogsimpology0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SirTruffleberry0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]And_Rue-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]LalaTheSecond2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Salt_Mathematician242 points [recovered] | Copy Link