Should “trapping a man” count as rape by deceit ?

RatchedAngle · 2023-03-29T15:17:39+00:00

I do think it should be a crime to lie about being on birth control or to impregnate yourself with a discarded condom.

BUT men will have to deal with the same problem that female rape victims deal with: these crimes are very difficult to prove. It becomes a he-said, she-said situation.

You can’t prosecute a woman who genuinely forgot to take the pill. And all it takes is one missed dose to affect the pill’s efficacy. All a woman has to do is say “I forgot to take it.”

You would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she intentionally deceived you and intentionally chose not to take the pill. Good luck.

So, the same way we tell women to be careful when they walk around alone at night, I’ll give men similar advice: if you don’t want a woman to get pregnant, buy your own condoms and wear them religiously and don’t ever let them out of your sight. Take them with you when you leave her house.

JasenBorne · 2023-03-29T16:27:19+00:00

people lie to each other all the time to get someone to sleep with them. what's next, gonna call it rape if the man tells the woman he loves her and will never leave her, she sleeps with him, gets pregnant, and he ditches? gosh 'he told me he loved me' happens farrr more than the lying about birth control; can't even imagine how many men would be in prison.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-03-29T17:47:19+00:00

I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily rape, but it should hypothetically be a crime. Men also sometimes baby trap women by doing things like removing the condom or poking holes in it. Both are criminal acts imo, but the difficulty comes in proving it, as with many forms of sexual assault. No birth control is 100%, so sometimes pills fail or condoms break.

The good news for ~99.99% of men is that their semen isn’t valuable enough for anyone to go out of their way to harvest it in some weird fashion like that woman tried with Drake. The most important thing for the average man (and woman) is to make sure your partner isn’t crazy and that you agree about kids or no kids before getting serious. For men, USE A CONDOM, one that you bring yourself. And for women, use the pill or another form of birth control you control.

Most women really don’t want to raise a child on their own, but if she starts talking about wanting babies too much too soon, run. Likewise, most men don’t want to pay child support but some men have weird breeding fetishes, so if he starts talking about impregnating you early on, gtfo.

januaryphilosopher · 2023-03-29T17:51:03+00:00

Saying that you are using a form of birth control that's used before or during sex (for example, that you have an IUD when you don't or will use a condom when you've poked holes in it) and deliberately not doing so is having sex under false premises, so rape by deception. Making promises and then failing to keep them (for example, not pulling out on time or not getting a Plan B) is a risk the other person knew before so isn't rape by deception, although it's still not a nice thing to do. Using someone else's gametes outside of sex without permission isn't sex so it can't be rape, again it's not good but the closest to any named offence I can call it is theft.

GlamSunCrybabyMoon · 2023-03-29T17:09:01+00:00

If a man doesn’t want kids but relies on the woman using contraception only, that’s not rape, that’s just taking a leap of faith and being stupid. Even if she says she is on it birth control, I’m sure most men won’t even bother to verify that or ask her to prove it.

I had this conversation with my younger brother and told him that he can’t rely on his gf (or other girls) using birth control only because it can fail or she can just stop taking it. He has a tendency to date crazy women, so maybe don’t give them the control. Lo and behold she got pregnant but he is lucky she wanted a abortion. This is about the 3rd time he’s been in this situation. Just be proactive if you know you don’t want kids.

social_mule · 2023-03-29T15:47:26+00:00

No.

Rape should count as rape and nothing else should count as rape.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2023-03-29T16:17:53+00:00

what country is this rape by deceit for hookers a thing in

Demasii · 2023-03-29T16:46:12+00:00

I know for sex workers that it’s rape by deceit to have sex and not pay afterwards .

I didn't know this. I would not consider this rape. It's breaking a contract.

can men sue or pursue criminal charges of rape by deception if , say , he’s a high earning man and she agreed to take the pill, but chose not to afterward ?

The pill isn't 100% so no. Too much plausible deniability.

None of these scenarios are rape. Rape is not consenting or able to consent. Being scammed is not rape.

LaloTwins · 2023-03-29T16:54:00+00:00

Lol refusing to pay a prostitute isn’t rape

It’s fraud

Notanothrshitthrow · 2023-03-29T15:43:14+00:00

Yes, it should be a crime. However like the top commenter has pointed out, proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it occurred will be as difficult as it is to convict for rape, if not more so.

You'll either have to prove that she intentionally missed her pill, which would be incredibly difficult, or prove that she poked a hole in the condom, which again would be very difficult to prove (unless men start collecting and cataloguing all their used condoms...)

gofigure62 · 2023-03-29T15:33:38+00:00

If a woman lied about contraceptives and/or sabotaged contraceptives, yes that is rape.

Birth control failing, a woman forgetting to take her pill, a woman not using contraceptives correctly, or a woman assuming the end date of a long term contraceptive aren't forms of deception.

Men still have the responsibility of engaging in their own methods of protection for contraceptives. Which includes not engaging in vaginal sex (oral or anal), using condoms, and/or getting a vasectomy.

Yoyo4games · 2023-03-29T15:24:11+00:00

If lying to get sex is rape, then absolutely.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2023-03-29T16:54:48+00:00

any crime of deceit generally requires a "reasonable right to rely" on the representations of the deceiving party or some manner of fiduciary or agency relationship. there is no reasonable right to rely on the word of some sex partner that she is on birth control nor is there any deceit or theft involved in taking a used condom from the trash, nor does any concept of "consent" come into play. none of this makes sense in at least anglo common law country law, merely lying is not a crime

TempoIndigo · 2023-03-29T17:01:55+00:00

Maybe but currently its not

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

Even if you rape a kid, that kid has to pay

8m3gm60 · 2023-03-29T16:30:45+00:00

I know for sex workers that it’s rape by deceit to have sex and not pay afterwards .

Is it? That sounds like a contract violation. The act would be over by the time the contract was breached. The sex worker would have a civil case for the breach and probably a criminal fraud case if the customer made the deal without intending to pay.

and she agreed to take the pill, but chose not to afterward ?

That would be a case of stealthing. The laws are inconsistent on that.

blueshinx · 2023-03-29T15:35:02+00:00

It should definitely be a crime. Consent to sex isn’t consent to actual reproduction.

In the case of the pill specifically it would be really hard to prove though, I’m interested to see how that could be solved.

1stevercody · 2023-03-29T19:24:35+00:00

I remember in a law class learning about men being held responsible for children when they were being used as a sperm donor by lesbian partners. It may not be "fair", but it's how it is. The problem I see is the burden of proof, unless you record every communication, it's just not going to hold up. Your best bet is to wrap that shit up, get on that male birth control when it's ready, or get a vasectomy..

sublimemongrel · 2023-03-30T00:53:04+00:00

There is caselaw deeming sperm “gifts” in terms of property law I believe. Granted, this would be state by state and civil law.

That being said the only rape by deception statutes I’m aware of deal with impersonation and/or rape or assault in the guise of medical treatment. It’s limited (in the states anyways) to very narrow circumstances. Please link me to whatever statutes/sources you found claiming not paying sex workers is rape by deception. Considering sex work is illegal in the us except in one county in NV, I’m not even sure how that would work

keenenandraz · 2023-03-29T15:52:18+00:00

They should make easier for men to surrender custody. That way women can have the kid if they want, but would be solely responsible for it. My old roommate was baby trapped. He took it better than I would have.

SteakhouseBlues · 2023-03-29T15:18:12+00:00

AstronautLoveShack · 2023-03-29T15:55:06+00:00

It might be difficult to prove entrapment, and not just the condom broke or the BC failed. I got pregnant on BC. That can happen if you miss a pill, or don't take it at the same time every day, if you are taking antibiotics, or even from drinking certain kinds of tea.

TermAggravating8043 · 2023-03-29T15:23:21+00:00

There’s nothing stopping a man leaving a pregnant women, and having absolutely no contact with the child born. He has to pay for it because whist he didn’t want it, he still created 50% of it.

Unless the man had a vasectomy, always used a condom, regularly communicated with his partner about her bc, and both partners agreed for an abortion in case of pregnancy then he can’t claim it was rape by deceit

1Here4Bach · 2023-03-29T15:14:50+00:00

Rape is having sex with someone who has not consented to having sex with you. Taking a thrown away condom and trying to inseminate yourself is not rape.

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LiterallyJustDev · 2023-03-29T17:59:46+00:00

Another beautiful day to cause gender division and riots.

Gr4nd45 · 2023-03-29T15:16:22+00:00

Yeah, probably... but such questions just make modern society seem so ridiculous to me. If you are that afraid of the natural consequences of this action, WHY are you "sticking it" in that woman, in the first place?

Can we no longer act responsibly, with self-restraint? Have we regressed back to mindless animals? All of these problems just because it's inconceivable to people, that you could simply abstain from hooking up with strangers/untrustworthy individuals.

EricAllonde · 2023-03-29T15:55:30+00:00

Should “trapping a man” count as rape by deceit ?

Of course it should. But we have two entirely separate criminal justice systems: one for male perpetrators and a different one for female perpetrators.

The various forms of abuse are not taken seriously when committed by a female perpetrator against a male victim - even when the laws are already in place.

In this case it's even worse, because forcing a man into parenthood without his consent is explicitly legal. Doing that to a woman is a serious crime, but doing it to a man is perfectly legal.

Here's something I wrote about the legal rights issues involved:

https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-fair-to-force-a-man-to-pay-child-support-if-he-doesnt-want-to-be-a-father/answer/Eric-Allonde

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2023-03-29T19:10:09+00:00

BC control isn't 100% effective, so it would be hard to prove.

kinkcloudinAZ · 2023-08-26T06:55:13+00:00

i think its so hot, it a fantasy I have happen to me

Jazzlike_Worth_9908 · 2023-03-29T17:25:03+00:00

Id say the real issue is not letting men choose whether or not they want to keep the baby just like women can

Chemical_Major_1403 · 2023-03-29T16:41:20+00:00

_yes cause consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy , men do not know how little the right they have in the reproduction system, also I will add an interesting question, we always say that a woman shouldn't carry her rapist child but why men do not have the right to obligate his female-rapist to abort the child

blaizken_420 · 2023-03-29T17:21:47+00:00

What happened with Drake would only be filed under reproductive coercion. But sex workers who aren't paid? Rape by deception means laying with someone under a completely fake identity. "I didn't get all the benefits I wanted" isn't rape, it's whiny female supremacist #metoo bullshit.

beleidigtewurst · 2023-03-30T13:07:01+00:00

A real case: Woman used sperm from oral sex to get pregnant, gets child support

Because f*ck men, as they are "privileged", that's why.

FlyV89 · 2023-03-29T16:29:26+00:00

Fatherhood is a social construct, and perhaps the biggest social construct of all human history, and also an opressive and outdated gender role. There is no precedent of animals fathering their offspring beyond some issolated species, and our specie it's not the exception. Men don't feel as strong about becoming fathers, they don't feel as much for their babies as women do (let alone random children) and we don't like families that much because we are more independent and confident as a whole than women.

Once the sperm is out if the man's body, no man should have anything to do with it unless he wants to actually be a father.

Matherhood is a biological fact and a physiological process. Women GIVE BIRTH to babies.

Fatherhood is a legal and social contract, basically originated and intrinsically tied to marriage.

Marriage is a dying institution, so fatherhood should be abolished.

GGMcThroway · 2023-03-29T16:19:19+00:00

Tampering with birth control should count as rape yes. Or at the very least, an equally punishable crime by a different name.

MyLastBestChance · 2023-03-29T16:33:14+00:00

I guess the pill thing it would be considered as the same as stealthing or lying about having a vasectomy or promising to pull out and failing to which I believe varies wildly by area.

I’m not sure the sperm theft would be rape as it’s commonly understood if the sex itself was consensual and the sperm was taken afterwards. Maybe fraud would be more applicable?

None of that is to excuse what is unconscionable behavior, of course.

Trouvette · 2023-03-29T16:56:44+00:00

In theory, yes. However, when it comes to the level of a crime, we run into the problem of proof. Take the condom incident, as an example. While the use of a condom shows clear intent to avoid children, engaging in sex also shows accepted risk. And even if you have a psycho like Drake dealt with, how do you prove that the pregnancy was caused by her actions rather than Drake misusing the condom or him engaging for a bit before he put a condom on? And with the standards used for crime, I don’t think entrapment would ever stand up to that level of scrutiny.

Safinated · 2023-03-29T18:57:29+00:00

If stealthing is, that is too. It’s going to be a bitch to prove tho

waffleznstuff30 · 2023-03-29T20:06:31+00:00

Yes. It should be counted as rape. It's having sex under false pretenses. I think it should be considered rape.

Now if a legit oops happened like actual unlucky .02% person who's method of birth control failed. Then no and just figure accordingly.

But most of the time it's premeditated and thought out.

KikiYuyu · 2023-03-29T20:53:15+00:00

It can't really count as rape if he consented to the sex in his right mind with a person who is who they say they are. It's certainly a huge violation of course, but I just don't see it fitting under rape.

Not sure why it matters if he's a "high earning man" or not. It's kind of fucked up to use how much money someone has as a qualifier for rape.

Thekurdishprince · 2023-03-29T22:58:29+00:00

It would not matter because currently a mans consent is not even needed for him to become a father.

So even if you made baby trapping " rape " he would still be responsible for the child with the current laws. Yes you read that right a man who is a victim of rape is still responsible for the child.

Let me give you a scenario here :

A woman drugs a man and rapes him. She wakes up and says i raped you and i might be pregnant. You go to the police and tell them what happened and they question her. She CONFESSES to raping you and is convicted in COURT because she literally just confessed with no hassles. She is also pregnant so what happens now? Can the government force her to get an abortion ? NO ! Can you get out of paying child support and having no reasonability to the child ? Also NO ! But how can that be the man is a victim here ? Because muh mah bodily autonomy and mah you as a man have less rights than a woman.

So it is irrelevant whether the woman trapping you with a baby during consensual sex be classified as raped because even in the event of it being classified as rape you are still responsible.

Heck you do not even need a mans consent to SEX you can straight up RAPE him and make him a father against his own will paying child support. That is why a man getting raped is worse than a woman getting raped in most western places because the man as a victim of the rape has repsobnility to that fetus/baby while the woman does not since she can get an elective abortion if raped by a man.

What can a man who was raped do ? NOTHING at least not legally. He as a victim will still be responsible. This is also the reason i am more understanding of men who are called " dead beats " because belive it or not if you give them alcohol and let them open up you will realise how many of them forced to became fathers throgh fucking RAPE.

What can a man who was raped do ? NOTHING at least not legally. He as a victim will still be responsible. This is also the reason i am more understanding of men who are called " dead beats " because belive it or not if you give them alcohol and let them open up you will realise how many of them forced to became fathers through fucking RAPE.

neetykeeno · 2023-03-29T23:17:29+00:00

I'm fine with the idea of there being a crime of falsely claiming the presence of birth control relevant to an incident of consensual sex. I think the burden of proof would have to be pretty high and that a lot of accusations wouldn't make it to court due to being petulant outbursts from people against whom no actual crime was committed or due to no evidence existing.

I don't think falsely claiming the presence of birth control should be a crime if no sex takes place with the person lied to or if the lie is corrected before the sex takes place. So basically you're still fine to tell intrusive busy bodies whatever the fuck you want because they don't deserve the truth.

I don't think lying about birth control is a narrow enough thing to be made a crime. Spectacularly shitty though it may be to have had vasectomy or tubal ligation and then allow ones sexual partner to assume conception is possible I don't think it should be a crime.

I don't think it fits in particularly well with the concept of rape except when it is a condom's presence or integrity that was being lied about...this being a significant disease safety issue as well as a reproductive one, In which case I would be fine for someone to face two charges...one for the lie about contraception and one for it being a lie about a disease prevention method.

I don't think making the crime contingent on a baby being produced or crime only relevant to men as victims or only relevant when child support is payable is a good idea. If you want people to be honest about lack of contraception it should be an attempt to create a cultural norm for everyone...not just to protect rich men's wallets.

HazyMemory7 · 2023-03-29T23:35:43+00:00

No. If someone can prove a girl did what that girl trying to trap drake did it should result in criminal charges, but otherwise if we're talking about contraception, the pill can fail, and men should be using condoms as well regardless of whatever contraception the girl is using.

george__whorewell · 2023-03-30T00:17:40+00:00

Rape means having sex with someone else without their consent, so I don't think this qualifies as rape but it should DEFINITELY be illegal

IntelligentAmoeba182 · 2023-03-30T01:38:43+00:00

It should be a crime, but it’s not rape. But also you can just walk away from the person. You aren’t legally bound to take care of a child

Marzipan-Happy · 2023-03-30T01:52:22+00:00

Hotsauce in his condom ? Yeowch. Rape no, deceit yes. It should be punishable, but that would be hard to prove.

begayallday · 2023-03-30T04:23:32+00:00

It’s definitely an uncharted area of law afaik, but I’d wholeheartedly and vocally support anyone who wanted to take it there.

womandatory · 2023-03-30T09:24:34+00:00

No. Rape is a specific crime of sexual penetration without consent. Comparing anything else to it, including being baby-trapped, or having to split resources in a property settlement, or paying child support, is completely despicable, reductive, inaccurate, and disrespectful towards rape victims. You want a term to describe something, it probably already exists, or make up your own.

Choice_Ad_6230 · 2023-03-30T09:29:14+00:00

If the intent is proven it should be a civily prosecutable crime.

sharksville · 2023-03-30T13:58:40+00:00

It is deceitful yes, but shouldn’t really count as rape. The term rape usually refers to one person forcefully having sex against another person against their will. It can be a man forcing himself onto a woman without her consent or a woman forcing herself onto a man without his. However the consequences of those actions should be equally. A persons punishment for being deceitful should be the same as the person who gets punished for rape.

New_Hat8820 · 2023-03-31T00:00:20+00:00

It’s too hard to prove but if you had receipts it could work

Title	Should “trapping a man” count as rape by deceit ?
Author	LiterallyJustDev
Upvotes	69
Comments	248
Date	March 29, 2023 3:09 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/125r0ll/should_trapping_a_man_count_as_rape_by_deceit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/should-trapping-a-man-count-as-rape-by-deceit.1207530 https://theredarchive.com/post/1207530

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