Toxic Masculinity

What_Is_X · 2018-03-10T07:39:08+00:00

This seems to be a misunderstanding of the term. I haven't seen anyone referring to all masculinity as inherently toxic (although I'm sure someone will now link an example). The term refers to a toxic subset of masculine behaviours, such as being "tough" and not talking about issues.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2018-03-10T14:40:38+00:00

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theothermod · 2018-03-10T11:22:09+00:00

Hello and welcome to /r/MensRights. If you are not a subscriber, please take a moment to understand what you are seeing.

This subreddit is about the issues faced by men in our society.

We welcome healthy debate and you won't be banned merely for disagreement. It is common here to reject feminist ideology, but that doesn't mean we hate women or oppose equal rights. Rather, we seek to expand those equal rights to include men.

These are some of the best discussions we've had. There is also a documentary made by a feminist who investigated our movement. If you want to know more about the issues we are concerned with, try these books: The War Against Boys by Christina Hoff Sommers or The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell.

Thank you for being open minded.

Mr-Zero-Fucks · 2018-03-10T13:38:52+00:00

There are toxic people. Period. Some of them are male, some are female. Period.

Cut them off from your life. Period.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2018-03-10T15:18:11+00:00

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Chris153 · 2018-03-10T08:46:52+00:00

This is a gross oversimplification of larger issues. It's not as though these boys need more or less masculinity in their lives. It's that they may be getting it from other subpar sources.

Society, at present, communicates the idea that children should grow up to be more like the adults of their own gender than the adults of the opposite gender. You could say this is a good thing, or that it's bad. Either way, a male child in a single mother household is going to look to other role models for notions of what a 'man' is. Single mothers may be more likely to expose their boys to subpar masculine models (dude on the street corner, irresponsible celebrities, etc.). Or, there may be a representation bias whereby aggressive and criminal men are the ones we know came from single-mother homes whereas we never hear about the success stories.

It's not a matter of degree of masculinity (more or less, positive thing or negative), it's a matter of what that masculinity means in context. Does it mean aggression and criminality? Or does it mean moral fortitude and responsibility. Y'all remember that karate mentorship video? I loved seeing that redefinition of masculinity to include crying.

Duderino732 · 2018-03-11T04:35:51+00:00

Reddit is the worse place to discuss this. Full of liberal nu-males who see “toxic masculinity” as a good narrative to challenge their stronger counterparts.

Pathfinder24 · 2018-03-10T09:51:39+00:00

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Pathfinder24 · 2018-03-10T12:04:38+00:00

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FuckedByCrap · 2018-03-10T08:26:53+00:00

No one is saying that masculinity is toxic. There is a distinct subset of uneducated males who are toxic and push their version of masculinity as a way to dominate others, because they lack the skills to behave in productive ways. Comments like these, that are latched onto by the Red Pill Club, do nothing to advance anything.

2018-03-10T12:52:06+00:00

Imagine, someone uses the word “toxic blackness” to describe-issues in the black community. Even if it is an academic term and refers to legitimate issues, the term itself is unacceptable because it carries a negative implicit connotation on blackness. It is a disgusting term that would infuriate me if ever used. I feel the same way about toxic masculinity. Masculinity and gender is not by choice..even if toxic masculinity refers to legitimate problems, it is an unacceptable usage of the word.

Babill · 2018-03-10T09:33:13+00:00

Did this hit all or something? So many people getting lots of upvotes defending this absurd term.

Toxic masculinity is ridiculous. Nevermind that the same feminists who say things like that also say things like "masculinity so fragile" when men do try to talk about anything.

It's just a way to attack men. It's not a legitimate term. Nor is toxic femininity. I'd prefer to refer to any toxic behavior... as toxic behavior. Rather than be a sexist idiot. But I guess if people want to be sexist, that's their business.

himynameis2442 · 2018-03-10T10:59:18+00:00

I'm seeing a lot of women in this thread telling me what it's like being a man but if I dared to try and tell them what it's like being a woman of be called a misogynist faster than light can travel...just observing something. Also ladies you may hate it but men and women are different. I'm not broken or toxic because I deal with my shit differently than you do. Toxic masculinity is a derogitary term. How would you like it if we called over emotional acting women toxic feminity? How would you like it if you reacted in a way that wasn't deemed manly enough that we called you toxic just for displaying your emotions the way you want to display them? Stop using that term. It's sexist and demeaning and does nothing literally nothing to help anyone

theothermod · 2018-03-10T10:07:49+00:00

The choice of words implies that masculinity is toxic.

Feminists know what they're doing. They object to terms like "fireman" and "chairman", since they imply that these are typically male positions.

"Toxic masculinity" implies that masculinity is toxic. Like "mansplaining", its existence is a deliberate sexist attack on men.

JustWanderful · 2018-03-10T23:15:41+00:00

Wow! So many effeminate responses in here, arguing against the posted statement. Sheesh.

Blutarg · 2018-03-10T14:51:54+00:00

Wow, great point!

Rethgil · 2018-03-10T22:52:49+00:00

For all the denials about the Left being worse than the Right when it comes to men's rights, this is an example of how that's a dead argument.

There's similar UK Right wingers openly saying the same as the posted link

But you would NEVER, NEVER get a Left wing politico daring to do this. Most of them believe men are toxic.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm Left wing. But I'm sick of what there become and their joining in and enabling the feminist anti male doctrine. Its time we were honest with ourselves about where the real problems are so we can challenge and change them, and let them know we will not put up with it anymore.

II3D · 2018-03-11T00:11:19+00:00

Get out of here with those statistics. We all know statistics are misogynistic and racist.

ChiefBobKelso · 2018-03-10T11:13:03+00:00

Lost of people here saying that feminists don't actually say that masculinity is toxic. Given how the base assertion of feminism comes down to men set the system up for men at the expense of women, I don't know how they could believe anything other than men are inherently selfish and bad, and thus that masculinity is inherently toxic.

konjo1 · 2018-03-10T09:11:49+00:00

Or maybe its the fact that these boys dont have fathers that show them that men aren't brutish animals that solve everything with violence.

So they learn their behavior from less than savory sources.

happy_love_ · 2018-03-10T08:43:46+00:00

My mom never let my dad see me, apparently lied to me about him my whole life. I grew up really fucked up.

Taxus_Calyx · 2018-03-10T09:32:08+00:00

What’s up with all the feminist apologists reaching the top comments on this post? Are we actually going to pretend that mainstream modern society isn’t trying to force feed us a narrative of ALL MASCULINITY being inherently toxic? In r/MensRights of all places? Must be because the title is “Toxic Masculinity” so it’s attracting a bunch of feminists sympathizers.

Auctoritate · 2018-03-10T12:58:06+00:00

Nah, this is dumb, dude. Masculinity isn't bad, having a father is good. It's that shitty culture can form that expects men to be emotionless and bottle feelings up, and other negative things, and it's super shitty.

gmanperson · 2018-03-10T09:01:37+00:00

This is wrong in so many ways. Being a father is isn't just being masculine, and acting as if that were the case degrades fathers themselves.

Sks44 · 2018-03-10T19:27:25+00:00

Media logic:

“Video games cause violence”

Reality: Since mid-80s when Nintendo hit, violent crime in the US has gone down.

“Toxic Masculinity is a problem!”

Reality: lack of male role models has been proven to be a negative for female and male children.

“Sexism and improper behavior are rampant in (insert industry here)”

Reality: The media was rampant with such behavior and was silent about it. They were also silent about NY and LA entertainment industry behavior. They then claimed they knew nothing about it.

Fire_God_Vargas · 2018-03-10T14:11:28+00:00

I just hate when literally every problem in society is blamed on men. Of course there are some bad elements, but overall we're keeping society together.

I think it's a lack of masculinity that's driving us downward. Telling men they they are the problem isn't gonna help your cause when you are looking for allies.

Sandman019 · 2018-03-10T09:23:21+00:00

Growing up with your dad has nothing to do with this at all.
Growing up without your dad messes you up because your father, a person who is supposed to love you unconditionally left you, making you feel like something is wrong about you.

bulkheads · 2018-03-10T17:57:48+00:00

There seems to be some confusion between what toxic masculinity is and what being a positive male influence is.

2018-03-10T19:38:30+00:00

Masculine is not toxic.

JohnKimble111 · 2018-03-10T07:21:06+00:00

There's an amazing disconnect in SJW/feminist theories. On one hand we hear that single mothers are amazing and such a family structure is just as valid and great for kids as any other and fathers are all violent monsters of little or no use whatsoever.

The same types of groups arguing he above then also tell people to check their privilege, one such privilege being having been brought up in a stable home by both your biological parents.

It's hilarious that they don't realise how these statements are so at odds with each other.

LittleGoblin · 2018-03-10T09:57:00+00:00

And not weak men either. Our children and society need confident, strong, and goal oriented men.

Maybe a controversial topic right now, but the clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson really is an amazing individual to follow on the topic of masculinity. But not just for topics like masculinity and how to be a better man, he also talks about being a healthier PERSON mentally. A lot of what he talks about is a paradigm shift in our thinking/belief system society pushes on men/ourselves in order to build better characters.

Honestly? his YouTube videos and podcast he’s featured on are great to listen to. They are positive, encouraging, and intelligently designed.

Sure there are behaviors that some people put into a category of being “toxic character parading as masculinity” and misunderstandings of what a man should be, but the movement has turned into a man hating witch hunt.

It has turned men into second class citizens. It’s outright wrong and with an outright political agenda basis. Makes me sick. Do NOT let this changing world undermine you as not just a man, but an an individual.

I believe it is also the duty of us women to encourage better men. Stronger men. Loving and supporting, family oriented men.

I take what I have learned from this sub, from JP, and from other places to gauge my everyday interactions with my future husband. I’ve seen his character build JUST by my attitude and encouragement towards him. And, I hope one day we have sons so that I can teach them to be better men as well.

AtheistComic · 2018-03-10T11:57:04+00:00

I'm all for the masculine in life for myself but these blanket statements are rooted in fallacy. A child growing up with ONE PARENT fucking suffers. Guys. This is some blue pill shit for dudes and we gotta step back from yanking our dicks about it.

Men can be abusive if they don't follow the Lion's example. THAT is what mens rights means to me, but you can of course have your own free will interpretation if you want... but every step you take back from a good example, promotes a negative stereotype.

ifelsedowhile · 2018-03-10T10:35:44+00:00

The point is that women have an important role in causing "toxic masculinity" because they reward those behaviors that lead to an excess of competition but feminists have a hard time admitting it because their ideology is designed to relieve women of every responsibility and because it goes against their notion that everything is a social construct while scientific evidence suggests certain traits in men and women are the product of evolution.

2018-03-10T09:11:28+00:00

If boys didn't need men then black boys in the US would doing as well as Asian boys.

Momochichi · 2018-03-10T14:01:09+00:00

I'd like to see those studies that say children raised by single moms tend to be more depressed, aggressive and criminal. Did they control for economic status? Because the only studies I've found say these children don't perform any better or worse than those raised by two parents.

2018-03-11T00:43:17+00:00

Toxic Masculinity:

"Real Men don't" cook, garden, sew, wear makeup...the list is endless..

Last time I checked if I was born with a penis I am a man regardless of what I do.

beetholder · 2018-03-10T09:00:38+00:00

This just betrays the fact that she (and probably OP) doesn't know that toxic masculinity is, or just ignores its real meaning.

What's funny is that if you people really cared about men's rights, you would've been all over toxic masculinity as a societal phenomenon. Societal pressure to behave in a specific way, to ignore your feelings until you want to commit suicide because you don't want to open up to anyone (it's not manly, real men don't cry or care), to act against your own interests just because people around you will think that "you're not a real man"? It sounds like exactly the thing MRAs should stand against.

But no, let's stop at the name and ignore the concept itself. It's probably just feminists trying to tell everyone that men are toxic by default, no need to actually look into it.

Clongjax · 2018-03-10T11:32:05+00:00

Modern Feminism (NOT Classic) is a mental illness.

v650 · 2018-03-10T10:30:45+00:00

Its having a father figure period. I know a woman who raised 5 kids on her own, the dad was a total asshole. All the kids, 4 of them girls, turned out perfectly fine (none of them working the pole!) except for dealing with the dad issues of having a asshole of a dad. They even send her father's day cards because she was both the mom and the dad. It's not about being masculine it is called being a FATHER. Big fucking difference. You want to be masculine man up and be a father, not a sperm donor.

SniffedMDMAWithUrMum · 2018-03-10T12:51:25+00:00

Exactly stop fucking trying to suppress masculinity because it boils over. Nothing is worse than angry young men.

sassybanana · 2018-03-10T13:06:50+00:00

If sugary drinks really hurt kids, then presumably kids without drinks would be better off, but research shows they actually die. Truth is, we need more soda, not less

AutoModerator · 2018-03-10T12:02:01+00:00

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2018-03-10T17:29:12+00:00

I was under the impression that masculine father figures weren't necessarily what mattered, what made the difference was having two parents in the child's life

2018-03-10T17:54:21+00:00

I don't think adding more masculinity is the answer. Just let people be who they wanna be. Live and let live.

recoil669 · 2018-03-10T18:02:58+00:00

In the many discussions I've had around toxic masculinity, it's defined as it's own kind of masculinity. If people are saying "Toxic masculinity" as in all masculinity is toxic those people need to jump off a bridge.

I do think there is a lot of merit to the term (There are ways that masculinity presents itself that can be harmful to people), but to imply that all masculinity is Toxic wholly unhelpful and should be immediately refuted.

ConfusedPuddle · 2018-03-10T19:08:12+00:00

We need more healthy masculinity not toxic masculity they are two different things

a_pile_of_shit · 2018-03-10T19:56:48+00:00

I there are many sides to "toxic masculinity". Some people use it to say all men are bad but at the same time there's the whole thing about how men should just deal with their own issues and that leads to things bottling up which is what should be addressed when talking about toxic masculinity

2018-03-10T12:33:03+00:00

There are a lot of things wrong with this, lots..

RedForman- · 2018-03-10T13:48:38+00:00

Depressed because they had to listen to their bitter mother go one about how their dad left when in reality the mom was just a dumb cunt.

LoneKharnivore · 2018-03-10T14:26:41+00:00

It's almost like putting an adjective in front of a word changes it.

'A boat' and 'a green boat' are different. 'Food' and 'dog food' are different. 'Masculinity' and 'toxic masculinity' are different.

romulusnr · 2018-03-10T18:09:18+00:00

There's masculinity, and there's toxic masculinity.

MrButtholePoopy · 2018-03-11T01:15:21+00:00

i always thought that toxic masculinity was a phrase used to describe over the top macho "men don't cry" types.

TherapyFortheRapy · 2018-03-10T12:21:31+00:00

Another day, another post that proves how worthless the mods here are.

2018-03-10T13:24:08+00:00

Toxic masculinity is more referring to the "shut up and take it" attitude that's commonly ascribed to males. Luckily, children are meant to be raised by their mother and father together, so that they can see both sides of the coin.

GlobTwo · 2018-03-10T14:06:47+00:00

That's not what people mean when they talk about toxic masculinity. It's not a suggestion that being masculine is inherently toxic. I think you'll make more insightful contributions if you read a little more on this topic, OP.

RubixCubeDonut · 2018-03-10T14:31:19+00:00

This person is either misinformed or purposefully obtuse.

Often times men struggle more with suicide and depression because we're societally conditioned to be less open and emotionally vulnerable with our other male friends, or even other people in general. The "masculine ideal" is to be stoic and independent without needing to rely on help (especially emotional help), and you don't have to look very far to find people who still think that it's unmanly to cry or see a therapist.

If there is an aspect of masculinity that is actively hurting people and contributing to the overall societal problems that men face, is it not accurate to describe it as "toxic"?

There are other examples that I could give to highlight this person's misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity means, but I feel like this demonstrates my point most accurately.

Nobody other than fringe idiots actually thinks that masculinity is inherently toxic, just that some parts of our current masculine ideal are harmful.

thevinci335 · 2018-03-10T08:09:59+00:00

She is writing for a conservative blog it seems. Is it right when I think of conservatives, I imagine overtly macho men that make penis jokes, was or wished they were in the service, wear ball caps, wranglers and a goattee?

Title	Toxic Masculinity
Author	JohnKimble111
Upvotes	5904
Comments	467
Date	March 10, 2018 5:06 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/83d4wp/toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity.904623 https://theredarchive.com/post/904623