Feminism Mega Thread

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[–]zeedoctorzee9 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

-dual custody

National organization for women. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/4hj57b/why_does_the_national_organization_for_women/ reddit comment talking about what happened.

-attacks on education "fucking over" young boys and grown men

Look up the work by Christina Hoff Sommers particularly the book The War Against Boys. She was a feminist who realized feminists were hurting men especially boys so she started research and what she found was shocking especially in regards to education.

-Duluth Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model Look under criticisms even feminist controlled wikipedia is calling it out.

-protests of male domestic violence shelters

Erin Pizzey and Earl Silverman. Erin Pizzey was a feminist involved with domestic violence research and helping victims but found out how much of it was reciprocal and that their was a shocking amount of male victims what was feminists response to this? Protested her and attacked her work and she had death threats that were so legitimate the police told her to flee the country. Earl Silverman started a shelter after being a victim himself and being denied help instead being told he was an abuser by feminist cunts when he tried to get help. Eventually between the protests and feminists influencing the government so he got no funding for the shelter he gave up and hung himself all because of evil cunt feminists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/earl-silverman-who-ran-mens-safe-house-dies-in-apparent-suicide

-influencing the FBI so men can't be legally raped

I forget the name of the person but a feminist academic was part of the FBI who wrote a lot of the sex laws and how the agency worked with sex crimes and because she was a feminist cunt she made it so legally men were unable to be victims because of how the laws were written.

[–]PollaTronante1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Awesome, thanks.

Dual custody:

Seems like there are valid points being made on both sides about this particular shared parenting bill.

Education:

Haven’t read the book. What “shocking” research are you referring to, exactly?

And just like you say there are criticisms of the Duluth Model, there sees to be plenty of criticisms of Sommers’ The War Against Boys as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers)

Duluth Model:

While I strongly agree that male victims of DV need to be recognized and helped, it does make sense that feminists are focusing on the women affected by it.

“At the same time, it is necessary to recognize that there are some women and girls who are abusive and violent to their intimate male partners . This is estimated to be in five percent or fewer of the cases.” (https://vawnet.org/material/are-heterosexual-men-also-victims-intimate-partner-abuse)

“Studies have consistently found that the majority of domestically violent women also have experienced violence from their male partners.” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/)

The Duluth Model is not fighting against male victims of domestic abuse, to use your own words. It is, however, failing to acknowledge their existence and I agree it needs to be changed because of this.

Male DV Shelters:

Pizzey’s anecdotal evidence says that “much of the domestic violence was reciprocal”. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be much, if any, actual evidence for this. I skimmed through her study to try to find it and found this:

"The time has come for a clear distinction to be made between a woman who has accidentally become involved with a violent partner and who now wishes to leave and to never return again, and a woman who, for deep psychological reasons of her own, seeks out a violent relationship or a series of violent relationships, with no intention of leaving.” (https://web.archive.org/web/20160325135504/http://dvmen.org/dv-134.htm)

Holy shit. Not saying she deserved death threats, but to blame domestic violence victims for their own abuse is horrific.

Silverman’s case is absolutely tragic, but there is no evidence that “evil cunt feminists” were out to get him or contributed to his severe mental health problems. In fact, it was the police that would ridicule him for being a victim. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Silverman)

Male as victim rape laws:

Seems like there has thankfully been progress concerning the legal definition of rape in 2012 in the United States thanks to more gender-neutral laws. The prior law had not been changed since 1927, so not sure what “feminist cunt” you’re talking about. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males)

[–]zeedoctorzee4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Haven’t read the book. What “shocking” research are you referring to, exactly?

Basically between more women becoming indoctrinated with feminism and thus scoring boys lower (despite the same or better answers) and changes to the system such as doing away with boys prefered learning styles it means boys are being at best short changed by education. You also have examples where stuff like organization skills or showing the steps to get to the right answer being more important than the actual answer which a lot of boys hate.

While I strongly agree that male victims of DV need to be recognized and helped, it does make sense that feminists are focusing on the women affected by it.

Why? Erin Pizzey showed the rate of domestic violence between genders once you adjusted for reciprocity was the same. The problem was feminists intentionally wrote their domestic studies to be INCREDIBLY biased against men thus tainting the results because they had an agenda Pizzey showed this for a couple studies because she knew they were bullshit.

The Duluth Model is not fighting against male victims of domestic abuse, to use your own words. It is, however, failing to acknowledge their existence and I agree it needs to be changed because of this.

It directly is we have examples like men with a bloody face being arrested when their partner has no marks on them all because of the Duluth model.

Holy shit. Not saying she deserved death threats, but to blame domestic violence victims for their own abuse is horrific.

I agree with her frankly women get what they deserve when it comes to abusive men. I used to have sympathy for them, but I had multiple partners and women I knew intentionally seek out abusive men. The straw that broke the camels back for me with dating was a woman I was dating broke up with me despite repeatedly saying how nice of a guy I was including when she was breaking up with me to go date a guy with a reputation who broke her damn arm. Women will take beatings over a boring beta guy and then complain about it fuck them.

Silverman’s case is absolutely tragic, but there is no evidence that “evil cunt feminists” were out to get him or contributed to his severe mental health problems. In fact, it was the police that would ridicule him for being a victim. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Silverman)

I am sorry but when he had feminists with signs protesting him I am pretty sure they were out to get him.

Seems like there has thankfully been progress concerning the legal definition of rape in 2012 in the United States thanks to more gender-neutral laws. The prior law had not been changed since 1927, so not sure what “feminist cunt” you’re talking about. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males)

Found it that was Mary Koss here is a link with an explanation. https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ds09dz/how_feminists_have_defined_rape_and_influenced/

Face it feminism is a hate and supremacy movement and has always been one the professor who got the first womens studies program started in America called for men to be culled to 10% of the population in one of her early books. Another good modern recent example was when the economy collapse Obama tried to get a shovel ready jobs program started targeting blue collar men who were out of work only for feminists to fight him on it and force him to make it more pink collar oriented even though the majority of job losses at the time were blue collar. Your kind is literally strong enough to influence the president and it is an evil hate movement.

[–]peteypete786 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PollaTronante1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because they fight only for the good things and not the bad but as soon as you point that out they just say well we don't want to do that.

Huh? Your main criticism of feminism is that they only fight for good things and not the bad? You think they should start advocating for more bad things?

There is a lot of money floating around for feminists to use and so a lot of women are paid a lot of money in these jobs and if they admitted that women had equal rights it would dry up.

Where's your source for this? Can you not think of a single way women are disadvantaged in modern day society?

They fight for 50/50 board rooms but don't realise that that it actually hurts companies as you are no longer putting the best person in place, this also leads to a lot of women being labeled as token employees due to quota agenda.

Not really familiar with this, but how is asking for 50/50 asking for superiority? That's literally asking for equality.

In australia the feminists came up with the idea of de-gendering job apllications thinking that it would make it fair, guess what it did make it fair and women were offered less jobs so they made them stop doing it.

Also not familiar with this. Do you live in Australia?

[–]peteypete783 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Huh? Your main criticism of feminism is that they only fight for good things and not the bad? You think they should start advocating for more bad things?

You do know what equal means yeah? it means the same it means that what men get women should get so if you only want to try and get the so called good bits of being a man and not the bad bits then the menas you want to be favoured ie superior.

A source for organisations that focus on womens rights? are you joking every western goverment gives grants to womens organisations and even the likes of WHO give funds for womens rights.

What way are women not equal in the western world?

Not really familiar with this, but how is asking for 50/50 asking for superiority? That's literally asking for equality.

No it isn't if you are asking to be given jobs due to your sex and not because you are the best for the job then that is sexist.

No I don't live in australia the story was talked about on a youtube channel of an australian guy called colttaine.

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So men are much harder workers is what you're saying.

Do you have anything to back that up? And if that is the case, are they simply born that way or are they socialized?

And is that enough to explain the major discrepancy - something like 93-94% being male?

I don't think so.

"Women CEOs in America are paid less, have shorter tenures and their companies are punished in the stock market, even when their firms are just as profitable as those run by men, according to new research from Florida State University." (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180904093805.htm)

They found that some of this discrepancy was due to "in-group favoritism, a phenomenon that causes people to view others who are similar to them as more competent." Men are more likely to hire and promote other men.

There's also gender inequality and bias. "Gender inequality is due to bias, not differences in behavior.

Bias, as we define it, occurs when two groups of people act identically but are treated differently. Our data implies that gender differences may lie not in how women act but in how people perceive their actions." (https://hbr.org/2017/10/a-study-used-sensors-to-show-that-men-and-women-are-treated-differently-at-work?registration=success)

Women, overall, prefer a work/life balance and aren't willing to put in those kinds of hours.

Women are expected to do more at home and face negative bias for being mothers while men who are fathers actually benefit.

"According to McKinsey and LeanIn.org’s 2017 gender report, women with a partner are 5.5 times more likely than their male counterparts to do all or most of the housework. However, women are not advancing, while men are. Previous research has also shown that men are perceived as more responsible when they have children, while women are seen as being less committed to work." (same HBR study)

"Overall, fathers incur an average wage increase of more than 6 percent with each child, while women experience, on average, a 4 percent decrease in salary per child." (https://www.augsburg.edu/now/2017/11/16/the-fatherhood-bonus-and-the-motherhood-penalty/)

[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

Well, let's do this.

Feminism is the ideology created around the pseudo-axiomatic truth of a global-wide male conspiracy to opress women and benefit from their pain, exploitation, suffering and servitude, also known as "The Patriarchy".

The Patriarchy is the core principle of feminism. If you don't believe in Patriarchy you can't be a feminist. If you don't accept at least partially the existence of Patriarchy you can't argue or debate feminist topics.

But there are some parts that don't fit un this narrative. Let me explain further...

1) For a Patriarchy to exist, all men must agree with this system, world wide. It's not enough only a minotiry of men benefit from it, because if the majority of men don't agree with The Patriarchy then men as a group would likely side with women and, thus, share their faith. But for the sake of discussion lets pretend the overwhelming majority of men agree with "The Patriarchy", this lead to a second point, which is...

2) For an opressive-slavery system to exist, the opressive class needs to lack the hability to empathize with the slave class, and feel no shame or remorse for profiting from the slave's suffering and pain. And the next point...

3) To opress an intelligent, grown individual both publicly and in private one needs to know about manipulation tactics and master situational opression skills. This leads me to believe my next point

4) The only individuals that have natural knowdeledge about manipulation and situational opression while at the same time lack the empathy needed to feel pain and shame for profiting of slaving their mothers, grandmas, sisters, daughters and wives, are sociopaths.

So... Feminism is implying that men are highly skilled sociopaths by nature. ALL men, this is. So this leads us to my final two points...

5) If men are sociopaths and have been opressing women for the past 100.000 years without dropping a single tear of remorse... Where will come from now the empathy and love necesary to make us, men, change our minds about women's rights? And lastly...

6) If us, men, don't give two flying fucks about women's needs and opinions (as it should be, because acording to feminists we are some really weird kind of psychos turbo-motherfuckers right?) and we refuse to give women their rights and all the "Yah'go GGRRRLLL" revolution falls in the hands of women alone...

...

Tell me... What do you think, as feminists, are your REAL chances?

In my opinion, an opressive system where the opressed holds 60% of votes and the opressor does the heavy jobs and die at war is quite a shitty opressive system don't you think?

[–][deleted] 5 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

The most important point is that your whole comment, conclusions and questions are based on wrong premises. Men don't have to be sociopath to support patriarchy and no, for the system to work it's enough for elites to benefit from it and for others not to really rebel against it.

It would be somewhere from the "first world", but it doesn't mean that slavery is justified in any way.

People have equal rights in most Western places with some exceptions, of course, that still should be addressed.

For different countries there would be different answer, but common important factors are industrial revolution, war and overall development of humanism and feminism. Considering slavery you had a whole Civil War and abolitionist movement. All in all these were times of fighting for human rights.

And not "whom" but "who" if I get it correctly. Human rights activists, revolutionaries, politicians etc. People who wanted to see a better world and people who saw some economic benefit in it for themselves.

[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

The most important point is that your whole comment, conclusions and questions are based on wrong premises.

You wish... See...

It would be somewhere from the "first world", but it doesn't mean that slavery is justified in any way.

Not in this time, but what if I told you african free folks marked themselves like slaves to get into the roman empire borders?

I would have prefered to be a slave in ancient Rome than free lions dinner too, don't get me wrong, and it seems we agree with this right?

For different countries there would be different answer, but common important factors are industrial revolution, war and overall development of humanism and feminism.

Where did all these civilizational changes took place, and who shaped them, created them and promoted them?

Considering slavery you had a whole Civil War and abolitionist movement. All in all these were times of fighting for human rights.

Where did this civil war happened, and who were the ones who fought and died to end slavery?

Human rights activists, revolutionaries, politicians etc. People who wanted to see a better world and people who saw some economic benefit in it for themselves.

So...

Where is the Patriarchy?

...

And not "whom" but "who" if I get it correctly.

My bad. English is not my native lenguage.

[–]NarniaFox -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Once again, your premise was that people have to be sociopath in order to oppress others. They don't have to though, because they make themselves believe that they are doing the right thing.

Nope, I thought you meant "where you'd like to be born". It would be better to born in a country that didn't turn you into a slave and didn't sell you as a slave to other countries.

Answer your own leading questions, dude. I'd guess that your point is that enslavers did all these great things, but it doesn't mean that slavery is a good or right thing to do. And I was talking about the US civil war. Black people and white people who supported them.

Patriarchy is here:

Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property.

English isn't my native language either.

[–]Expensive-Guitar3609 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Once again, your premise was that people have to be sociopath in order to oppress others. They don't have to though, because they make themselves believe that they are doing the right thing.

I'm trying to breaking it to you, actually.

Nope, I thought you meant "where you'd like to be born".

I was pretty clear when I said "at that time".

It would be better to born in a country that didn't turn you into a slave and didn't sell you as a slave to other countries.

So, definetly not in any african country. I absolutely agree with you on this.

I'd guess that your point is that enslavers did all these great things,

No, my point is that at any time in history you look at, you will find that there is a large amount of people (men, actually) that thinks bad things are WRONG, but often times they find themselves on the losing end of the power balance and that's when things get shitty for most people (women, children, old people and people of other races and all that jazz).

I saw you cyrclejerking with your friend down there talking about the Apartheid and I didn't want to interrupt and turn this conversation into a race one, but you seem to miss that blacks voted in South Africa until the very year the Apartheid was institutionalized and instaurated, which was (if I remember well) in 1948, when the Nationalist Party won the elections despite blacks being 80% of the population.

Funny uh?

Why didn't blacks supported the liberal candidates? You know that Britain tried to stop the Apartheid financing liberal candidates right?

Tell you why.

Because there was a lot of support for Apartheid from blacks, specially those blacks that were allowed to live among whites, because even when they were treated as second class citizens they were still doing better than the rest of the entire Africa's black population and they didn't want to share with other blacks from poorer countries their part of the "White Cake-topia".

You know... Similar to how some blacks now from US don't want blacks from Africa to move to US?

It's funny, because is not like South African blacks were like in the US of the old segregation days (the 80's) where they had nowhere to go and were sorrounded only by white cities and countries, thousands of miles away from a country with people "alike".

South African blacks still were in Africa. The most black continent (the black continent, actually). Sorrounded by black people. And they were trying to force their way into a tinny white-dominated racist country.

Like... In what world do we live in that is normal, lets say, for a sane human being, to move thousands of miles away to a foreing country only to claim that said country is "racist"?

I mean, it looks like Roman Empire 2.0 for me, if you know what I mean.

but it doesn't mean that slavery is a good or right thing to do.

Never said that.

I'm just saying, at some points in history, it's a lot better for weak people to serve strong people than just... Die.

This is specially true when the wrong men have the power and the good men have to suck it up or die too. Fortunately for you and me, but specially for ME (a man) lots of good men gave their lives in the past century so we didn't have to fight for basic human rights today...

Because if you, a woman, didn't have rights today you would be probably sucking it up in silence, and I would be the one wasting my damn life fighting for our rights, because both you and me know this is the way it has always been.

No thanks.

Thanks those men, actually.

Black people and white people who supported them.

Roughly 200.000 black men served the Union military and navy combined. That's only 10% of the Union Army.

So I think it's fair to say "white men... and the black men who sopported them".

Black or white women, as usual, didn't take part in the civil war so they don't count. You know, they were too much opressed to go to war and fight for their freedom at the time...

By the same men that were... Fighting for freedom? Ok, give me a break...

All this being said, you let me know when you understand why opressive systems are not as "black and white" (no pun intended) as feminist want it to be.

That's my point, feminism has it wrong.

English isn't my native language either.

You doing way better than me then. ¡Chapó!

[–]NarniaFox 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope, you're changing the narrative. Your point was that men should be sociopaths for oppressing others and now you're moving it towards "they did a good thing actually".

I got the part about time, I didn't about being a slave in a chosen country. Do you get it?

I'm not into talking about Apartheid, because I have pretty limited knowledges about it and I don't consider them enough to hold a proper conversation. I should educate myself first, so sorry for not keeping up in this topic.

People used to die in big amounts. Men more because they went on wars. But women didn't just "sit in safety" or whatever. For example, during the WWII women fed the army and produced goods necessary for it to function. They had to watch their kids starve, because everything was sent to the army. Without women our army would just starve. And it isn't much different from previous wars. Someone had to produce goods for armies in the first place.

So thanks to both men and women.

So I think it's fair to say "white men... and the black men who sopported them".

I didn't mean that there were more or less white men, I meant that they were against slavery == they supported black people.

Let me know when you stop talking to others in a condescending tone when you're trying to prove your point.

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Feminism is a boogeyman tradcons use to distract themselves from the fact that there is a massive disconnect between traditional family values and material reality.

Today less women stay at home because they are more likely to have a decent job. The better the job you can get, the higher the cost of opportunity of staying home. If a woman isn't the motherly type and needs constant intellectual or artistic stimulation, there are no rewards of being a housewife. Housewives are completely dependent on their husbands and if those decide to drop dead or abandon the relationship, she'll be fucked because her homemaking skills won't be worth a dime to any well-paying company. This isn't feminism, this is the free market in action. The more people are capable of providing a service, the less that service is worth.

The other issue is the cost of sustaining a family of three on a single income. People have done this for a long time and very often at the expense of their own financial well-being, but as dual income families become more acceptable, less people are willing to choose austerity just to stay home. In fact, some people might decide not to have children at all just to be able to enjoy financial stability. Let's face it, people like living comfortably and your tradcon landlord will only care about about your money, not about your values.

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[–]athrowaway2832221 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

honestly i don't think of incels when i think of trp, i think of misogynists lmfao 😳 (i think, like how people think of man hating when they think of feminism when that in itself is its own thing)

One, that shows he will "get it", which is goddamn essential in success, and two, there's no risk he will become bitter, because he's already aware. After that, confidence and success will cycle themselves positively in a feedback loop.

if it's a strategy that works for you -- it works for you! i'm sure many women will find your approach attractive, out of all the ways someone could look at trp at least. i like how you use it as like a toolbox for self improvement/success.

i just like naïve non-jaded bluepilled men 😔one who has never heard of a gender pill in his life LMAO a clueless innocent person <3

[–]Pilling_it1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

honestly i don't think of incels when i think of trp, i think of misogynists lmfao 😳 (i think like how people think of man hating when they think of feminism when that in itself is its own thing)

Yeah, I'd include those too. But bitterness is never attractive to anyone, you don't want anything to do with someone putting forward their baggage first thing.

if it's a strategy that works for you -- it works for you! i'm sure many women will find your approach attractive, out of all the ways someone could look at trp at least. i like how you use it as like a toolbox for self improvement/success.

I tend to attract women who like how calm I am, but looking younger doesn't help with being all flirty. Sure does work wonders though. And that's how trp is supposed to work. Much like fds, a lot of terper try to reap the success without the effort. Except the effort is long, painful and ungrateful if you want to assimilate it correctly. Otherwise you just end up putting a facade.

i just like naïve non-jaded bluepilled men 😔one who has never heard of a gender pill in his life LMAO a clueless innocent person <3

I know your kind well lmao. Wanting the shy one to defile him yourself, much like a cute thing.

[–]athrowaway2832221 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pilling_it1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

true!!! that is def unattractive from the beginning, but once you're serious it's good to be honest, open, truthful, etc.

Women don't tend to be problem solver though, better have a solid idea of how to solve it once you present it

calm men superiority

I don't understand those who yell all the time. One, it takes so much energy, two, how are you going to be taken seriously? I just have to tell I'm going to raise my voice if shit go on to get people's attention.

well i'm young-er (probably like you? we went back and forth before i didn't catch your age though) and a virgin too so i like the shy ones who believe in fairytales hahah

24 actually. Defo not a virgin (you need some experience to figure out how to please imo, otherwise you're not gonna be a good ltr partner), but I ain't sleeping with lazy entitled shits either. Also, good luck finding someone who still believe in Disney, pill values are seeping everywhere nowadays.

[–]athrowaway2832221 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women don't tend to be problem solver though, better have a solid idea of how to solve it once you present it

mmm idk i like to solve problems but i also just like it when people vent. i like to vent too. emotional vulnerability is key!!! (and that's why sad boys r a fave 🤝). but you're right that it's best to have a handle on our own problems/traumas/issues.

I don't understand those who yell all the time. One, it takes so much energy, two, how are you going to be taken seriously? I just have to tell I'm going to raise my voice if shit go on to get people's attention.

agreed.

24 actually. Defo not a virgin (you need some experience to figure out how to please imo, otherwise you're not gonna be a good ltr partner), but I ain't sleeping with lazy entitled shits either.

oh sorry, i meant the "too" as in i'm on the younger side (19, you're young too!) and a virgin as well, not in regards to you! i definitely know you're not, we've talked about this i think.

and maybe that is true about experience, but i'm pretty guarded and can't really find someone attractive enough or be able to trust someone enough until i have an emotional bond/connection with them.

Also, good luck finding someone who still believe in Disney, pill values are seeping everywhere nowadays.

nahhh there's still enough non-jaded zoomer men looking for committed LTRs/marriages out there, just gotta look for the focused, committed, non-pussy-chasing but loving ones. shy and inexperienced doesn't matter for me either.

[–]Pilling_it1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

mmm idk i like to solve problems but i also just like it when people vent. i like to vent too. emotional vulnerability is key!!! (and that's why sad boys r a fave 🤝). but you're right that it's best to have a handle on our own problems/traumas/issues.

Yeah, but pay attention and you'll notice you'd rather hear him vent than asking you how to solve problems. Because men tend to not talk about problems to vent (or like once, but not more), these are on average way harder to solve than what women talk about between themselves.

and maybe that is true about experience, but i'm pretty guarded and can't really find someone attractive enough or be able to trust someone enough until i have an emotional bond/connection with them.

The biggest irony is that your hormones make you feel more bonded to the man after having sex. And for him, the biggest the thirst, the biggest the post nut clarity (hence why it's unattractive among other things), and thus the risk of leaving you.

Also someone attractive enough is bound to have experience and thus being more confident (which is also important in the equation of overall attractiveness). Your niche would be the ones with low confidence in themselves, but they tend to have some issues down the line and attract girls that want to fix them, often so they don't have to look at themselves.

nahhh there's still enough non-jaded zoomer men looking for committed LTRs/marriages out there, just gotta look for the focused, committed, non-pussy-chasing but loving ones. shy and inexperienced doesn't matter for me either.

Yeah, when young it's often a kink, but after some years of that trust me that women want one that can find that goddamn clit lmao. On top of what I put above, he'd have to not use much internet too, which does remove the whole nerdy archetype.

I also don't especially chase pussy, but I can't exactly say that a lot of women aren't ltr worthy nowadays, and a lot of them around my age value the casual attention of the attractive ones that don't require much beside raw attraction over having a serious conversation.

So while I ultimately want a ltr, I don't think it's that wrong to have some fun with people I actually have chemistry with, since women value that, regardless of how they rationalize it's wrong.

Not saying that's impossible for you to find, by all means best of luck, but I think it's not very possible for one person to stay what you're looking for in our environment. Do challenge what I said to reality though, and see for yourself.

[–]athrowaway2832221 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, but pay attention and you'll notice you'd rather hear him vent than asking you how to solve problems. Because men tend to not talk about problems to vent (or like once, but not more), these are on average way harder to solve than what women talk about between themselves.

ahh maybe so.. i like when we have problems in common because #relatable though. i like helping people solve problems even though i can't solve my own (give and take perhaps).

The biggest irony is that your hormones make you feel more bonded to the man after having sex. And for him, the biggest the thirst, the biggest the post nut clarity (hence why it's unattractive among other things), and thus the risk of leaving you.

that's why i'd have sex with someone who actually finds me attractive and already loves me lmao. and tbh i don't think so, tons of women have that "why did i have sex with him" moment, and i want to avoid that

Also someone attractive enough is bound to have experience and thus being more confident (which is also important in the equation of overall attractiveness).

of course, makes sense. i think a number of women like confidence, but i'm pretty reserved myself (crazy but reserved!) so i don't really care for confidence, i just like kind people

Your niche would be the ones with low confidence in themselves, but they tend to have some issues down the line and attract girls that want to fix them, often so they don't have to look at themselves.

eh not necessarily low or someone i have to fix (though.. i like helping people) but someone who wants to continue growing and self improving with me would be cool. though i'd be fine with this as well

Yeah, when young it's often a kink, but after some years of that trust me that women want one that can find that goddamn clit lmao. On top of what I put above, he'd have to not use much internet too, which does remove the whole nerdy archetype.

i mean pretty much everyone uses the internet nowadays, that's almost unavoidable. and i get it, but men can learn and since i'm inexperienced too i don't mind learning together (it's not a kink, it just sounds nice). intimacy > experience imo

I also don't especially chase pussy, but I can't exactly say that a lot of women aren't ltr worthy nowadays, and a lot of them around my age value the casual attention of the attractive ones that don't require much beside raw attraction over having a serious conversation.

that makes sense, i'm not blaming you for it!! i just personally like serious conversations a lot better

So while I ultimately want a ltr, I don't think it's that wrong to have some fun with people I actually have chemistry with, since women value that, regardless of how they rationalize it's wrong.

of course there's nothing wrong with that. but you realize that women rationalize it being wrong due to men slut shaming them if they released their inhibitions... i mean that's a very small portion of it for me, i'm not abstaining to please a future partner or to not get slut-shamed, but rather for my moral/religious duties and fear of being vulnerable with just anyone, no matter how "attractive".

Not saying that's impossible for you to find, by all means best of luck, but I think it's not very possible for one person to stay what you're looking for in our environment. Do challenge what I said to reality though, and see for yourself.

haha i definitely will. i just have to look beyond the conventional. after all, i don't mind being the smokeshow in the relationship (may even prefer it) so long as i'm attracted to him, we're compatible, we can be faithful and committed, and he doesn't shame me for inexperience :D

[–]Pilling_it1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

ahh maybe so.. i like when we have problems in common because #relatable though. i like helping people solve problems even though i can't solve my own (give and take perhaps).

You're looking for someone that's similar enough to relate to, and different enough to learn from. And that's also why I talk about the "fixers" too, they give really good advice, and in that process, don't have to look at their own, nor wouldn't be able to apply their own advice.

that's why i'd have sex with someone who actually finds me attractive and already loves me lmao. and tbh i don't think so, tons of women have that "why did i have sex with him" moment, and i want to avoid that

Love comes over time though? I'm not sure I could have fallen in love without the intimacy sex provide either. As for finding attractive, if we're talking as a whole package, that's a tall order, especially that young, people are sorting themselves out. But as physical attraction remains important... Eh, just take care of yourself and you're good.

of course, makes sense. i think a number of women like confidence, but i'm pretty reserved myself (crazy but reserved!) so i don't really care for confidence, i just like kind people

I say confidence, but the more adequate word would be charisma, which is strongly influenced by confidence (being able to articulate and defend your views among other things). You can put whichever you want in kind too, although I think I see what you mean.

eh not necessarily low or someone i have to fix (though.. i like helping people) but someone who wants to continue growing and self improving with me would be cool. though i'd be fine with this as well

Again, there's a whole spectrum between 100 and 0. But I often saw people trying to fix others (also often being people pleaser, even if only in private), and ultimately in doing that they can take their mind off their own case.

i mean pretty much everyone uses the internet nowadays, that's almost unavoidable. and i get it, but men can learn and since i'm inexperienced too i don't mind learning together (it's not a kink, it just sounds nice). intimacy > experience imo

Not anything is happening without intimacy. But again, in 7-10 years, I doubt you'll have the patience for a grown ass one that can't find the clit. Men already never get physical contact between themselves and women are afraid to make it weird, they're way more touch starved than you think (and are). Often what some mean by being "lonely".

that makes sense, i'm not blaming you for it!! i just personally like serious conversations a lot better

More like it's not always comfortable,and take them out of the bubble where my persona in their mind is very agreeable lmao.

of course there's nothing wrong with that. but you realize that women rationalize it being wrong due to men slut shaming them if they released their inhibitions... i mean that's a very small portion of it for me, i'm not abstaining to please a future partner or to not get slut-shamed, but rather for my moral/religious duties and fear of being vulnerable with just anyone, no matter how "attractive".

If that tell you anything, I've taken the habit to tell a partner the first time we're alone that what happen in private stays in private. And I repeat it as much as they want everytime they ask. Anything less than that, and most women can't really relax. Also give them a goddamn massage, one can only be so tense.

haha i definitely will. i just have to look beyond the conventional. after all, i don't mind being the smokeshow in the relationship (may even prefer it) so long as i'm attracted to him, we're compatible, we can be faithful and committed, and he doesn't shame me for inexperience :D

Hint, get him in the gym if you want to stay attracted to him. And do the same. And well, men don't mind inexperience anywhere near the level women do, regardless of what some say. For the rest, as long as you avoid covert contracts, you're good.

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[–]NarniaFox11 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I support feminism because it's the only movement that actually helps women here. We don't have state-funded domestic violence shelters and few that exists are funded by volunteers and are created by feminists. Feminists push against taking abortion out of universal heath care, tried to push against law changes that would make it harder to bring an abusive partner to the law, do pickets and raise funds in support of abused women, raise awareness about women's issues etc.

Feminism is problematic in the same terms as men's rights movement, because there isn't one unified agenda and there aren't ways to stop people who use the movement to express their misandry/misogyny to call themselves feminist/men's rights activists. It isn't an organization that could give and take membership, so the only way is not to stay silent. And I do think that more feminists should oppose misandry that comes from some of them, it would be good for everyone.

Edit: so thanks to kind u/abaxeron, I've learnt that some shelters are indeed funded by the state. There's no info which shelters or to which extent though. And there are around 150 organizations that deal with domestic abuse in Russia with, again, no info how many of them have actual places where victims can live. A lot of shelters are religious and this is problems by itself.

[–]abaxeron6 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We don't have state-funded domestic violence shelters

'Scuseme?

Сколько сейчас кризисных Центров в России?

Это более 150 организаций по стране, и общественные, и государственные. Меня радует, что у нас хорошее взаимодействие с государственными Центрами. Мы все понимаем, что вместе решаем одну социальную проблему, просто у общественных структур меньше полномочий. Финансируется все на местном региональном уровне. И многое зависит от приоритетов местной власти. Если они осознают проблему – они вкладывают в это деньги. У нас есть отличный пример в Тюмени, например. Там действует мультидисциплинарное государственное реагирование на проблему – с убежищами, с подключением социальных служб, правоохранительных органов. В Екатеринбурге, в Челябинске. В некоторых других крупных городах.

[–]NarniaFox3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks, that's actually a good news, I've thought that there are far less shelters overall and I honestly didn't know that they get at least some financing from the state. I wouldn't get too positive about it though.

First of all, 150 ~~shelters~~ organizations when far not all of them have actual physical places where abuse victims could live aren't enough. Secondly, there's no information how many of them and to what extent get help from the state. If one is funded, they still could claim that "some are state-funded". Thirdly, a good share of these 150 is religious shelters.

По данным журнала «Фома», в России в июне 2019 года насчитывалось 60 церковных приютов для беременных женщин и матерей с детьми, находящихся в трудной жизненной ситуации[6], а по информации Синодального отдела по церковной благотворительности и социальному служению, с учётом открытого в феврале 2020 года в Архангельске центра «Мамина пристань», число действующих церковных приютов для женщин достигло 74

I think that shelters shouldn't be religious to start with although it's better to have at least some ways out rather than nothing. But there is a whole problem of abuse towards women and children inside the church, so this kind environment isn't what I'd call suitable for victims of abuse that don't have any other place to go.

Ah, sorry, I've misread. Not 150 shelters, but organizations and not all of them have actual places for victims to stay in.

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While I still think feminism still sums up to an overall beneficial movement, it has some serious flaws that need addressing. For a tl:dr just read the first sentence of every paragraph.

There is a serious case of victim complex currently infecting the movement. Too many women are painting themselves as an oppressed class in the western world. This is not to say women don't face serious issues that disproportionately affect women, but men also have different issues in similar severity. While men and women have different privileges/issues, the 2 genders are in sum are really close to equal. Feminism is no longer an equality movement, it's a women empowerment movement (still a good thing). The distinction is important.

There is a sizable and vocal minority of man haters in the feminist movement that get almost no pushback from the average feminist. I would go as far to say these man haters get tacit support from the average feminist. Seriously how many self proclaimed feminists will push back when another self proclaimed feminist says something like "all men are trash". Very few.

Feminism doesn't hold itself to the same standards as it does the rest of society. While there are many examples, one is how feminists preach on the importance and impact of language/word choice (I agree with this) while also insisting on using "patriarchy" as the "bad guy" they are fighting against. Pretty much everytime I see the patriarchy issue discussed in any detail feminists will claim that it can be enforced by men and women, harm men and women, and benefit men and women. If that's the case why use a word so clearly connected to men to define the "bad guy". It should be obvious that it will negatively affect how feminists view men. If you are fighting against societal enforced gender roles, say that instead of "patriarchy".

Feminism today lacks a unifying goal. The previous generations had much clearer goals like voting, workplace, or school equality that had measurable ways to show improvement. What is it today? While they are fighting some very important fights like reproductive rights and sexual harassment culture, they are bogged down by some plenty of idiotic battles. The fact that manspreading gained any amount of traction speaks for itself.

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Any discussion about feminism on this particular subreddit is doomed to fail. The problem here is that we are generally operating on two different definitions of feminism.

The manosphere (including TRP), in general, has convinced itself that feminism is a boogey(wo)man made out of straw. To the manosphere, feminism is some nondescript entity that is anti man and out to get them and the things they like. Gamergate is a great example of this mindset, the paranoid insane belief that feminism is trying to take away their videogames. Its insane.

This means its impossible to have a good faith discussion about feminism here, because more than half of the posters on the subreddit don't have a good faith understanding about what it is.

You aren't going to persuade someone who unironically believes that feminists are a part of a (nazi conspiracy theory tier) coalition of Governments, Major Corporations, and other assorted globalists trying to destroy Western Civilization by eroding the concept of masculinity.... of well anything frankly. Those people are insane.

And you can already see this thread breaking down. You have people saying, "as a feminist...." then immediately being told that "feminism doesn't mean equality". And you have people with the cat out of the bag from the world go saying equating feminism as nothing more than "man hating".

This thread is going to be a shit show, it is already a shit show. And unless TRP magically develops critical thinking skills and becomes capable of leaving their propaganda behind them for longer than 2 seconds... its only going to get worse.

EDIT: The responses to this comment definitely prove my overall point. We have a lot of people arguing against a definition of feminism that I did not attempt to provide. We have some people saying "no u." We even have some one claiming that the manosphere reads feminist authors (lol). This board is absolutely not qualified to talk about feminism at all.

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Men and women are way more equal than before. But I think there's still a lot that can be done, the suicide rate amongst men is very high and thats directly related to men being taught as children to not cry, be strong, not show emotions and a bunch of other detrimental stuff. If we were to treat little girls and little boys the same this would certainly be way better than it is right now. Women are also way more shamed for having multiple sex partners than men, as you can see in some comments in this sub. Women are still expected to do most of the work when raising children even if they work the same hours as their partner, causing a lot of stress. Women are not taken as seriously as men in positions of power, as can be shown by the huge unbalance of men and women in power. Men have more chances of diagnosing a disease late and limiting their treatment options for the exact same reasons as the suicide rate problem. And I think I've listed enough. I think all of those problems are connected, if we (even if indirectly) teach children that men are supposedto be the powerful ones thats both bad for women who won't be taken as seriously and won't make into those roles, and for men, who will avoid to show weaknesses untilit costs them maybe their lives. I think all of that is pretty sad. And I think you would agree with me they're bad. I just wish men and women would come together to fix it instead of being like bla bla women are where's bla bla men are pigs

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To an extent this is true and that factual even. Has how is feminism not anti men when they create hashtags like "male tears" or "men are trash" or "men are rapists".

Shall I point you to various comments within TheRedPill where men make comments about killing gay people, or running over women with steam rollers? Don't bring out the obtuse bullshit on this. There's idiots in every village and every movement. Pointing to them to make your argument just makes you look desperate.

I get you feminists think feminism is well wonderful and flawless and nothing it says or do is of any fault, but maybe actually try to see things from a different view point for once

Ad hominem.

Ya the manosphere does create boogiemans and strawmans with feminism, but it also brings up good criticism of it.

Citation needed.

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In some aspects I think it goes overboard.

Some false theories like the wage gape taint the movement since they're clearly falsehoods and shouldn't be brought up.

Another one are abortions. And the negation of the fact that those fetuses are infact yet to be born human babies. And normalizing abortions like it's a procedure, rather than literally taking a human life, and it being an extremely tough moral decision to make.

Some things are valid, like fighting the normalisation of rape. And fighting the idea that rape means some creep drugged and fucked you in a sex dungeon. When in reality most rape is someone taking advantage of women while they're drunk, or pushing for sex and the woman giving in because she's scared of the repercussions if she were to refuse.

But there's a lot of things in feminism that are a matter of personal opinion aswell.

Legalising prostitution is fine, because it would give healthcare coverage to prostitutes, it would tax them, it would drive down STD transmission, give a safe work environment to the prostitutes, etc.

But on the other hand, do we as a society really want to normalize being a prostitute and having whore houses on the street in our neighborhoods, next to schools and kindergartens? Do we want women to give up and sell their body for money when push comes to shove? Do we not want to address issues that LEAD women to prostitution in the first place?

[–]thelajestic7 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Some false theories like the wage gape taint the movement since they're clearly falsehoods and shouldn't be brought up.

The wage gap isn't a falsehood. It just seems to be a very misunderstood concept. Yes, it's generally not legal to pay someone a different wage for the same role/experience just because they're a woman, however there are other factors at play. In addition, much of the "gap" is due to the fact that women are much more likely to have to leave work/work part time due to caring responsibilities. This is something that really needs to change and there needs to be more equality in terms of carrying responsibilities; it can't just fall to the woman automatically.

Another one are abortions. And the negation of the fact that those fetuses are infact yet to be born human babies. And normalizing abortions like it's a procedure, rather than literally taking a human life, and it being an extremely tough moral decision to make.

It is a procedure. The life of the living, breathing, already alive and conscious human will always take precedence over a fetus that isn't viable outside the womb. There is no moral way to justify this not being the case.

[–]geyejoe71 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women leave work because the OPTIMAL solution for who takes care of the baby when it is just been born, is the babies MOTHER.

You have some dads that take leave when the baby is born, but that should only be done in cases where the father is 100% ready and willing, also, if he earns less than his wife, since it has a financial purpose then too.

This is a disadvantage YOU CHOOSE as a woman, if you decide to make a family.

You need time off work. For YOURSELF. The employer has every right to be dissatisfied with having to pay you for YOUR PERSONAL TIME OFF.

It is a procedure. The life of the living, breathing, already alive and conscious human will always take precedence over a fetus that isn't viable outside the womb. There is no moral way to justify this not being the case.

Just because it isn't viable outside the womb, doesn't mean it wouldn't be in years to come. It's a baby. And you're killing it. Just be honest.

Takes precedence over a living breathing human? Giving birth doesn't kill you, if it would, you have the right to choose your life over theirs. But it isn't killing you in the majority of cases.

[–]thelajestic5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women leave work because the OPTIMAL solution for who takes care of the baby when it is just been born, is the babies MOTHER.

You have some dads that take leave when the baby is born, but that should only be done in cases where the father is 100% ready and willing, also, if he earns less than his wife, since it has a financial purpose then too.

This is a disadvantage YOU CHOOSE as a woman, if you decide to make a family.

You need time off work. For YOURSELF. The employer has every right to be dissatisfied with having to pay you for YOUR PERSONAL TIME OFF.

Fine, let's stop having babies then and let the human race die out.

There is no way currently to grow a baby without a human womb. Therefore, if you want society to continue you need to ensure the people with the wombs aren't completely disadvantaged by this continuation of the species.

Takes precedence over a living breathing human? Giving birth doesn't kill you, if it would, you have the right to choose your life over theirs. But it isn't killing you in the majority of cases.

Giving birth kills in a lot of cases. Even when it doesn't it comes with life altering, long term physical side effects.

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[–]umnothnxbye5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Giving birth can absolutely kill you. USA has bad track record for that. Heck, even pregnancy can kill you. Like pre-eclampsia.

Also, nobody should have to be tortured against their will to bring another life into the world. Pregnancy was quite hellish, but as someone who has given birth it is by far one of the most agonizing and traumatic things I've been through. I was not prepared for just how horrific it would be.

Not only that it took months and months to heal. I was still bleeding and felt like shards of glass were shoved up my vag at 9 weeks postpartum. It was brutal just walking to the bathroom. Pissing was a hell all of its own making.

I think if I was pro-birther, I sure as shit would have changed my mind after all that. I went through all that willingly, albeit naively, but to do it against my will? No. That's barbaric and psychopathic to expect women to do that against their will.

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I think the best way to solve such pay gap isn't to just pay women more, it's to have more quality daycare options,

There are daycare options. They just cost money. Either way you're suggesting some kind of extra financial contribution that someone is going to have to pay for so that women don't feel like they're being shorted or disadvantaged.

, and stimulate fathers to participate more

I imagine that single mothers are making up a large part of the "pay gap" but I bet that child support money isn't included in the pay gap figures. Child support in this case is the how fathers participate.

But the small difference that exists even before women have children still exists, there isn't a consensus on why tough. So I wont pretend to know why, and I also know that you don't know why.

What numbers are you using to assume that? Women without children out earn men without children. Its mostly the single mothers who are driving down that average, and not because they're simply being paid less per hour.

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Don't forget the bashing of men, and not call out women. Also men don't owe women anything.

You specifically ignore where I said that we should hold false rape accusers accountable... Therefore I don't encourage bashing men.

Remember kids only men rape and women are the victims.

Here are some stats sweet cheeks.

As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.

As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.

Do you see the disparity?

And no, we're not accounting for prison rape. Even though I'm not sure if this study accounts for it.

If it doesn't, it doesn't matter here, because I'm specifically talking about men raping women, and women raping men.

So when it comes to rape, yes, men are the overwhelming majority of rapists.

Edit: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Study

[–]OkLieThen1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You specifically ignore where I said that we should hold false rape accusers accountable...

I didn't. False rape isn't that all that common for one. Two just because you say to hold false rape accusers accountable doesn't mean you don't support bashing men.

Here are some stats sweet cheeks.

Do you want to prove my point?

Do you see the disparity?

You mean besides the fact that men report rape far less often than women and that if you look at more current numbers far more men are raped than what RAINN stats show. I can't find the study, but the CDC in their last rape study were made to penetrate was not classified as rape, if you look at how many men fall under that in a years time men are almost match women on a per year bases.

men are the overwhelming majority of rapists.

Men rape more but they are no means the overwhelming majority of rapists.

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To me "the other" is less about revelling in the power of victim status and more about what form and function is considered normative, thereby following that other forms and functions are aberrations.

My background is in women's health and this is very applicable. For example, clinical trials have generally been male focused (white male at that). There are a lot of reasons for that other than sexism / racism (you really don't want women getting pregnant in an experimental drug trial!) but there are real-world consequences when we define normal health functioning as normal male functioning. There was a good example with adverse effects that women were experiencing from taking ambien, for example.

In general I think the impact of "othering" is a useful framework to keep in mind of a philosophical discourse, and SBD's contribution is valuable in that regard.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

there are real-world consequences when we define normal health functioning as normal male functioning

Yes; you (the scientist who runs clinical trials) will not get accused of hating women of color for trying to make women's lives better a couple generations after your death, when you can't argue back. Very much a real-life consequence.

I can dig up a dozen of unauthorized medical experiments on male prisoners and mental patients for every case similar to "the Pill". None of them will be presented or discussed as specifically attack on men. At best, they will be presented as mistreatment of "people of color".

My last favorite case? - Had a cab some time ago; started a small talk with driver, found out he's a student about to become a dentist. Asked him what was on my mind for years: "How do dentists, respected members of society, become dental technicians in male prisons?"

Guess his response. "It's the easiest way to run experiments on compliant patients who won't go anywhere, and write a PhD paper."

Not to touch on morality of such state of affairs, but in example that you yourself brought up, men seem to be "othered" way more than women. And I love how you (predictably) leave out the main part: women have lower mortality in any age group, for any reason, except a chosen handful, and greater life expectancy at any age, in any country, except a chosen handful. Any step towards providing women with even better medical service is the step away from gender equality.

In general I think the impact of "othering" is a useful framework to keep in mind of a philosophical discourse, and SBD's contribution is valuable in that regard

Considering that she had Woolf and Kollontai before her (who said almost the same thing, just without using the term), I can maybe give her credit for introducing this idea to the French audience.

[–]PrincessFKNPeachManlet Lover 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Yes; you (the scientist who runs clinical trials)

will not get accused of hating women of color for trying to make women's lives better a couple generations after your death, when you can't argue back.

Very much a real-life consequence.

This was trying to make their lives better:

Because the pill was still illegal in half of the country and women consistently dropped out of the studies, Dr. Rock and Pincus decided to travel to Puerto Rico and test women there. Unfortunately, their studies had just as harmful affects on these women as well. “Many Puerto Rican women were sterilized without their consent or knowledge in a procedure that was colloquially known as “La Operacion” in the 1950s and 60s. Pincus and Rock assumed that they would find a large, compliant population of test subjects. They believed that if poor, uneducated Puerto Rican women could use the pill, anyone could,” Broadly revealed.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeron0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Then why do you keep presenting worthless information?

It's not worthless if you don't treat it like a retard.

Liberating women from having no choice in their reproductive life course WAS NOT some ACCIDENTAL side effect of a drug that ACKSHULLY was intended to alter women's mind state to make them more likely to stay in the fucking kitchen.

No; these guys took a task to make women's lives better while they could invest themselves into literally anything else; they succeeded well within norms, sensibilities, and competences of their time, and they DID NOT choose or treat their female test subjects any worse than they would have male test subjects, if the developed drug was male-specific.

Inhumane? Maybe. Unethical? - Definitely. Sexist? - No.

Edward Jenner tested the world's first vaccine on a child and then tried to infect the kid with deadly and highly contagious smallpox that was untreatable at the time.

Louis Pasteur lied to medical community about the amount of test animals he tried his vaccine on, and then administered it to a child anyway. Attenuated vaccine against rabies. A brain-eating pathogen that kills humans in a week and up until today has no treatment once symptoms manifest.

Attenuated vaccines that were common up until recently have a nasty habit of sometimes mutating back into aggressive form. They left from several dozen to several hundred kids annually infected with aggressive polio. Some of those kids died; some got their dysfunctional limbs amputated; some survived having to rely on caretakers and life support equipment for the rest of their days. If not for the vaccine, they might have never contracted the disease. But only when attenuated vaccines gained a feasible alternative, WHO issued a guideline to remove them from production and usage.

But let's go back to the original point: the medical community's only options to collect information aren't "exploit poor women of color to engage in medical trials" or "know nothing about the human female body" so why are you going down this rabbit hole about how they aren't learning more about the female body because someone might say they hate women of color?

I am not "going down" no "rabbit hole"; I'm saying this because THIS IS WHAT FUCKING HAPPENS UP UNTIL TODAY. Look up the history of Flibanserin/Addyi trials, a drug supposed to treat anorgasmia in women. They had to test it on men for side effects, so that women don't accuse developers of sexism if side effects include such things as paralysis and death. Women STILL accused them of sexism for dragging clinical trials for too long.

EVERYTHING with women's involvement in medicine is a fucking catch-22. I had people telling me in this thread that Freud was "presenting women as the Other" (the vast majority of his patients were women, he raised three daughters, and at least one of them became accomplished published researcher in psychology in her own right).

Ian Frazer, one of the very few people alive today to see their treatment for female-specific illness (uterine cancer) getting developed, passing clinical trials, AND getting approved for usage, will also, I am absolutely certain, be "cancelled" some day for some bullshit reason, when hysterical cunts who have never helped anyone or invented anything decide to move their sensibilities even further.

Meanwhile, women still have lower mortality rates, everywhere, in every age group, for any reason except a chosen handful.

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[–]wekacuckPreparing to die a virgin. 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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It confused me how exactly civil code can promise jury's leniency to the accused of criminal violence.

This goes a bit about my knowledge to effectively commentate on, but I think the first part in which she says something roughly about the right to take the law into your own hands was abolished, that it is implicit in the Napoleonic code that husband's who do decide to take justice into their own hands will be shown lenience. I am actually going to take a bit more of a look into this.

I have a little bit of hope that she was attentive, and the real jerk is the translator

The three translations of this I know of say "execute justice", "avenge" and the one you pointed out "punishes his wife for adultery", so I think it is correct. But in one of the translation it says it allows for "the indulgence of the jury".

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

There's a massive disconnect between the things feminists are actually saying and what incels / Red pillers wilfully misunderstand. When feminists say "shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity" red pillers / incels will actively misinterpret it as "being stoic is toxic" or "being a man is toxic"

Apparently this place is supposed to be a debate board, but all I'm seeing are stubborn conspiracy theorists that can't even be bothered to even read their own sources. It's not a debate board if one side is completely unwilling to even try to understand what the other side is saying.

Where is the debate if red pillers only ever argue against strawmen and aren't willing to even listen to the other side?

All the time it's "toxic masculinity is just an attack on men", "masculinity is called toxic" or "anything a man does gets labeled toxic now" but if they just tried to read a single article about Toxic Masculinity they would notice that it's always an attack on how society raises boys and what kind of harmful standards are placed upon men, but never an attack on men or masculinity in general.

Just right now someone further down again claimed that:

"Toxic masculinity" is used as <an attack on the actions of men>. When a guy does something bad, it is toxic masculinity. A guy hitting his wife is described as toxic masculinity but the reality is that a man hitting his wife is just damn near the least masculine thing he can do.

Masculinity--true masculinity--is no longer under attack because it has been equated with shitty male actions. We no longer can have a discourse about true masculinity.

and used this article as proof that "men shooting people is toxic masculinity" and that it's only used as an attack on men.

So let's take a look at the article in question:

Newsom had his explanation for the difference. “I think that goes deep to the issue of how we raise our boys to be men, goes deeply into values that we tend to hold dear: power, dominance and aggression over empathy, care and collaboration.”

Heldman said efforts to reduce mass shootings should emphasize reducing what is often termed “toxic masculinity,” the pernicious societal norm that being a man means “you can’t show emotion, that you can’t seek help when you need it, essentially that you can’t be fully human, you can’t be vulnerable.”

Encouraging media portrayals that depict boys and men in a vulnerable and realistic way could help reduce mass shootings, she said. Parents can help by examining the ways in which they discourage boys from healthy expressions of emotion.

“We know from studies that even feminist mothers will give girls, their daughters, more sympathy when they are hurt than their sons, which encourages boys to hide their pain and to deprioritize their pain, and view it as not being something that they can show the world,” Heldman said.

Madfis said mental health professionals also could play a role in preventing violent behavior by considering their patients’ conceptions of masculinity during counseling.

“Try to address mental health from a perspective that actually addresses men as men,” he said. “Try to grapple with healthy forms of masculinity, and try to reject the more toxic and problematic forms of masculinity.”

Nothing in that article is an attack on men. It's all just a criticism of the societal standards that are placed upon men.

Toxic Masculinity doesn't portray men or their actions as toxic. It portrays men as victims of a society that doesn't care about them except for what they can provide.

Any sane mens rights activist should be happy that feminists are addressing ways in which society hurts men, but red pillers wilfully ignore all of that to portray feminists as evil witches.

tl;dr: Toxic Masculinity has nothing to do with what Red Pillers / Incels falsely claim about it. They are wilfully ignorant about this topic as they desperately crave any reasons to hate feminists

[–]Kaisha001 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There's a massive disconnect between the things feminists are actually saying and what incels / Red pillers wilfully misunderstand. When feminists say "shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity" red pillers / incels will actively misinterpret it as "being stoic is toxic" or "being a man is toxic"

No, the APA listed stoicism as a trait of toxic masculinity.

Apparently this place is supposed to be a debate board, but all I'm seeing are stubborn conspiracy theorists that can't even be bothered to even read their own sources. It's not a debate board if one side is completely unwilling to even try to understand what the other side is saying.

Oh the irony. Feminists love to preach equality, then cherry pick to form these absurd narratives. Then when challenged, simply double down or play semantic games. I mean just a few months ago our resident Russian feminist was complaining about how much worse women had it (in Russia) in the 20th Century...

It's not the people don't understand what feminists are saying, it's that we know its bullshit.

Where is the debate if red pillers only ever argue against strawmen and aren't willing to even listen to the other side?

Pot meet kettle?

All the time it's "toxic masculinity is just an attack on men", "masculinity is called toxic" or "anything a man does gets labeled toxic now" but if they just tried to read a single article about Toxic Masculinity they would notice that it's always an attack on how society raises boys and what kind of harmful standards are placed upon men, but never an attack on men or masculinity in general.

False. It is a direct attack on men. You love to pretend it's just 'select' behaviors, or harmful practices; but in reality it's any used as an intellectual cudgel to enforce the feminists agenda. Feminists do not care one bit about male well being.

Any sane mens rights activist should be happy that feminists are addressing ways in which society hurts men, but red pillers wilfully ignore all of that to portray feminists as evil witches.

Complete bullshit. In practice it's always used to denigrate and attack 'all men' for the actions of a few. Some guy shoots up a school, and now it's 'toxic masculinity this and that' and how 'all men need to change' and blah blah blah. It's the same tune every time.

[–]couldbemage 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So this is essentially: "The definition of n-word is just black person, so it's pretty dumb for you to be upset about it."

I certainly get that the shit black people have gone through is worse, not saying it's equally bad. Just pointing out that directing a phrase at another group that doesn't like it is generally shitty.

And then there's the phrase itself. Toxic is pretty damn loaded. The people using it are the same ones that say the feelings evoked by language matter. If it's really just a correct way to describe harmful cultural norms, why is toxic attached only to masculinity? Are there not harmful norms that are feminine? And even every culture? Tech culture? Black culture? Christian culture? Japanese culture? I can certainly think of some for any of those.

But I can't imagine using the phrase toxic blackness. Holy shit, just writing that makes me feel like I need to censor it like I did n-word.

Toxic (whatever cultural norm) is not common use.

If you actually cared about helping men, there is no reason not to say harmful cultural norms or something similar. Yet you cling to a phrase that you know pisses off those you're claiming to help. Which tells me the real goal is exactly that.

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality. 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I see nothing in what you've highlighted to suggest a portrayal of men as "victims of a society that doesn't care about them except for what they can provide".

But that's exactly what it says

“toxic masculinity,” the pernicious societal norm that being a man means “you can’t show emotion, that you can’t seek help when you need it, essentially that you can’t be fully human, you can’t be vulnerable.”

As a man society doesn't let you be fully human. If you remove the humanity from someone what's left is a working machine. Toxic Masculinity objectifies men as disposable wage slaves.

who virtually always deny any hypothesis regarding observed gender asymmetries that suppose an indifference and apathy toward the neuroticisms of men at root

Those apparent gender differences don't count if they can't be observed universally.

For example in the US there's a strong gender difference in the willingness to eat vegetables. One might now suggest that it's just natural and that men simply don't like them as much, but then you take a look outside if the US and notice that this gender difference doesn't exist in a lot of places. Then you dig deeper and notice that in the US there's lot of societal ideas like "real men eat meat", "vegetables are for women" or "vegan is an old Indian word for bad hunter" which explain why this gender difference exists in the US, but not in countries where these sayings don't exist.

Similarly in the US there's a strong gender difference in the willingness to seek mental health care or to go to a doctor. One might now suggest that this is just natural and that men just care less about their safety and health, but when looking at other countries this gender difference again ceases to exist. So you dig deeper and find out that in he US men are getting shamed for needing help (like the old joke that men would rather get lost than asking for directions) and that mental health care is seen as something feminine or for women, as men are supposed to be always strong and tough.

So once you start to look at it more closely the possibility of men just emoting differently biologically can't explain why they would emote differently in the US but not everywhere. And what's left are those obviously different societal norms that are pushed upon men.

instead favoring models which only suppose a hostility toward women.

How do you manage to go from "society doesn't allow men to be fully human" to "men are hostile towards women"? That doesn't make any sense at all

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality. 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

So let's take a look at the article in question... Nothing in that article is an attack on men.

ALMOST EVERYTHING in this article is an attack on men, starting with a headline.

“These shootings overwhelmingly, almost exclusively, are males, boys, ‘men’ — I put in loose quotes,” Newsom said during a news conference. “I do think that is missing in the national conversation.”

And here we start with a straight up lie that the article admits right in the next paragraph: "[2013-2019], there were 11 shooting rampages in California in which the perpetrator indiscriminately shot victims in public places and killed three or more people... Nine of those mass shootings involved a sole male suspect, one involved a sole female suspect, and one involved a male and a female couple"

Thus, women constitute 1 in 6 Cali mass shooters. Hardly "overwelmingly, almost exclusively, males". In fact, way above my expectations; good job girls, especially adjusting for women's worse access to firearms and general worse shooting accuracy. To conclude from this paragraph, the article feeds us false impression that share of males among mass shooters is higher than it actually is.

The second obvious lie is that this issue "is missing in the national conversation". Newsom IS a national conversation.

goes deeply into values that we tend to hold dear: power, dominance and aggression over empathy, care and collaboration

Repeated by his wife almost word-for-word when she was talking about her upcoming film in an interview (page 5 paragraph 2) Right after this part, without any smooth transition, the governor "concluded" that the state needs background checks for ammo. For those who missed the memo: he was shamelessly promoting his wife's feminist documentary at a discussion about gun violence and racism.

Here’s what a range of experts had to say about what might explain the gender disparity.

MENTIONS OF SINGLE MOTHERHOOD: ZERO

So, there are people who have been rejected by lots of girls

Such a wonderful and original thought. Not only the "study"'s abstract is a fucking trip of sexism, racism, and gay idealization, the premise it operates with is outright false:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

"Broadly speaking, the racial distribution of mass shootings mirrors the racial distribution of the U.S. population as a whole."

The correlation between masculinity and homicide goes beyond mass shootings. Almost 90% of suspects arrested for any form of homicide in California in 2018 were male,

Therefore, which this article fails to mention, share of women among mass shooters is SLIGHTLY HIGHER in Cali than among arrested for homicide.

Obviously, gender disparity in homicide arrests is not evidence for anything except how handcuff-happy police is towards a specific gender. This part is included into article for fear mongering purposes and to entrench the anti-male bias it's trying to convey.

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

And here we start with a straight up lie

It's not a lie though. 5 in 6 being male shooters is overwhelmingly male, also that's not the real number.

Thus, women constitute 1 in 6 Cali mass shooters. Hardly "overwelmingly, almost exclusively, males".

You did a good job on dishonestly leaving out the the next paragraph

Nationwide, there were 53 indiscriminate mass shootings in public areas during that time, and all but three involved male suspects.

3 out of 53 included did not include male shooters, that's not 1 in 6, that's 1 in 18, which means that it actually is overwhelmingly and almost exclusively males.

To conclude from this paragraph, the article feeds us false impression that share of males among mass shooters is higher than it actually is.

To conclude you are deliberately feeding us false information to give the impression that the share of males is much lower (a third of the actual number) than it actually is.

The second obvious lie is that this issue "is missing in the national conversation". Newsom IS a national conversation.

Now you are reaching hard.

I give you a 2/10 for a very poor attempt at making your bullshit sound credible

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Sure it does, it does things like fight for the right of battered men not to be arrested while fighting to prevent Republicans from blocking VAWA, among other things. I vote Democrat because I am egalitarian and Democrats don't bow to the man-hating feminists who are in charge of the movement even though they will put Kamala Harris in striking distance of the White House.

I also support AOC because she's an amazing leftist Democrat and has very deftly and quietly distanced herself from the misandrist elements of feminism so well that they don't even realize she's doing it. Too bad Men's Rights people don't listen to her because she occasionally shouts out to men's rights themes. AOC is the kind of feminist I'd vote for if I were in New York.

Oh hell who am I fooling I'd vote for Anita Sarkeesian before I voted for Trump.

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Alimony highly favors women.

Because men generally earn more income. I have never seen a study that proves a majority of men still end up paying alimony when they earn less income than their ex-wives. If you can provide that, I'll agree with you.

Divorce courts highly favor women

See above.

All levels of education highly favor girls/women

Women are graduating college 66% to men's 33%

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2018/04/23/how-our-education-system-undermines-gender-equity/

Women under 30 are out earning men, but strangely no talk of THAT pay gap

And that quickly reverses after 30. Women also still earn less overall during their lifetime: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/02/heres-how-much-men-and-women-earn-at-every-age.html

Default custody laws go to women

Because custody is based on numerous factors, including who the primary caregiver is. In a majority of cases, the mother spends more time with the child/children than the father (even when both parents work).

Duluth model of domestic violence says that the larger of the two should be arrested in the case of DV, which is 99% going to be the man, even if he's the victim.

Rape laws in some places are defined as made to penetrate, which makes it legally impossible for men to be raped

Finally, you mentioned good ones.

False rape allegations are diminished as not significant enough to care about

False allegations of any sort should be treated the same way.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/21/health/why-people-lie

Growing number of sexless men

No one is entitled to sex.

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Men try, but are often shut down by feminists. MRAs have no power compared to feminism, and feminism will not let MRAs rise to any kind of power. Feminists will use every dirty trick in the book to make sure the word MRA is a dirty word, similar to Nazi.

Granted, the MRAs spend way too much energy complaining about feminism rather than fixing problems, which is why I don't identify as one.

This is pretty much how every conversation goes with a feminist. The feminist claims to be for equality. I point out just how unequal men are in society and how feminism isn't doing anything to alleviate men's oppression at the expense of women. Feminist says, "It's not the job of feminism to, ya know, bring about ACTUAL equality! I only meant equality for women."

As for men being primary care givers, women en masse are largely disgusted by a man that doesn't work. If women were on a massive scale were turned on and married men that wanted to be SAHDs, we'd have a nation of stay at home dads.

Also, how do you propose men be primary caregivers if family courts are wildly biased against giving men custody?

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This sounds like feminist identity politics, which is the scapegoat of feminisms.

Real feminism is just a bunch of female social scientists writing essays analyzing structural dynamics of society and how they influence, restrict or benefit women. The ideas presented evolve over time as anything sciency does.

Honestly, it's pretty boring. I doubt much of anyone-- self identified feminists included-- have read any first order feminist material.

Real feminists want to do things like identify underprivileged female populations and send more resources their way or lobby against regressive abortion regulations in shitty red states. Radfems want to disengage from standard male-oriented social dynamics by creating alternative spaces in which to create new women lead dynamics. Transwomen seem to really hate on the radfems but I'm honestly shocked that there are enough transwomen around that this is such a thing.

Then there's feminist identity politics which amount to nothing. Any thought or idea coming out of there is basically meaningless meming. Not something that I participate in. It is a reflection of the standard gender roles as much as anything else.

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I think there's something to be said for "enabling females as consumers benefits capitalism."

This is actually true. Female consumers are super consumers because their caretaking roles mean that they aren't just buying for themselves, they're usually +kids/+elders.

I also read a study back in college on microloans in India that were targeted to women only. The finding was that money given directly to women was spent on her dependents or used to fund alternative income streams, which would always end up benefitting the local economy and reduce child poverty.

Money given to men did not make it's way into the general economy the way women's money did. They either hoard it or spend it on themselves.

Women having independent income streams from men absolutely does benefit the economy. We live in a culture that privileges maleness but capitalist society is agnostic to women who make money, because it does stimulate the economy, although there are still a lot of barriers in corporations to women reaching the upper echelons of leadership.

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My take: powerful men and capitalists encourage feminism.

Nah. People will always ultimately have their best interests in mind, so feminism is a conglomerate of female interest inflated to the point where they can actually effect change and serve those interests. "Free societies" encourage feminism or meninism/personal interest, whereas every other social/economical structure restricts it in some way. I put "free society" in quotations because we're not as free as some people believe we are.

From a capitalist POV, modern women are the best workers. They work incredibly hard, follow the rules, and don't ask for or demand very much.

Nope. The ideal worker is someone who will keep their nose down and not ask questions, and simply do whatever is put in front of them. That's why the market is heavily centered around dependency and competition. People need to work to survive, and those who will put forth a lot of work for "enough" compensation are the most profitable. Statistically speaking, though, men are the best workers for most job fields because men have more strength/stamina and aren't liabilities due to pregnancy. Therefore, they can work longer and more consistently, which in the long run leads to more success. That's also why jobs try to milk their employees for all they can during work hours by overloading them with work. If you want a prime example, look at China, and also the US economy during peak baby-boomer times. Mostly men working, building, etc. Slave labor drives economies, and men are better equipped to handle it.

And honestly this is why I support feminism. It benefits me and my family. I can live my traditional life at home while having my financial interests aligned and growing along with the capitalists.

Heh. You're actually just a cog in the machine that they (the elite) have built. As long as you're fine with that and keep spinning where you're placed, they don't care, because they benefit more from your docility and cooperation than you do from them.

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what would you define as toxic femininity? what do women do that is harmful to everyone including ourselves?

That's an interesting question. I think it would have to not be 'what do women do' per se, but what is a common and often accepted construct of femininity that results in negative outcomes for individuals and wider society, given the way toxic masculinity is defined.

~~Coming from a liberal feminist framework, I find it quite hard to think of what this might be, but that doesn't preclude it existing. Perhaps that is actually a starting point?

"Toxic femininity includes the concept that women are necessarily more virtuous and inherently better or even perfect as a result of their gender alone."

It is a damaging construct for both genders, and leads to aberrant expectations and behaviours, as well as being a sentiment that's fairly prevalent in many areas of culture.~~

Further edit: Here's an interesting exploration of a few viewpoints on toxic femininity: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity

The idea that toxic femininity might be internalized misogyny seems like it has parallels with the way pickmes are characterised. On first pass, it would seem that pickme behaviour is not as damaging to men in the same way that toxic masculinity damages those around them, but on reflection it is clear that it does some damage, reflecting on various FDS posts about pickme mothers.

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toxic masculinity refers to things that are male specific/heavily male represented. catcalling, virgin/inexperience shaming among men, centering their entire life and value around sex, rape culture, diminishing each other's masculinity or calling each other gay based on meaningless things like a man wearing nail polish and skirts (like that is not indicative of masculinity or sexuality),

luckily you literally see a LOT less of this in younger men. some young men are so pure it's crazy, so many of them actively fight toxic masc

i think i could think of some "toxic femininity" but then it goes for both genders. mostly manipulating, lying, abuse, gossip. but both genders do that in similar equal numbers. but then golddigging could be one (though people argue it goes both ways b/c on the other side of the transaction is sex).

still some young women acknowledge and oppose a lot of these things as well

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I don't think "too much" leadership is ever seen as a bad thing

Well of course it is. In fact, it is often referred to as too aggressive. Sometimes micromanaging.

I'm opposed to stereotyping and generalizing men

This is pathetic. XY chromosomes. XX chromosomes.

It is the antifeminists who insist that men and women are different and have these distinct traits.

And you are wrong. Dead ass wrong. Menstrual cycles. Ovaries. Physically, we have distinct traits.

Now, let's take a look at biological differences: I look to spread my seed. Going to bet that most feminists do not look to spread their seed.

But here is the framework you are attempting to push on me: If I point out these differences, then you are telling me that I am "antifeminist". Simply put, that's dead ass wrong.

Seriously, if you are incapable of seeing that men and women are different, then you are useless.

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as people can be deemed "too nice"

Not women.

As a whole, I disagree that feminine traits are seen as more desirable than masculine ones.

you are forgetting the filter to use for those traits. "Too much". You seriously have to do some mental gymnastics to say that "too much caring" is bad.
No mental gymnastics are required for "too much aggression".

My point to you is pretty simple: Even a woke feminist women like yourself cannot help but be stereotypical, but by trying to not be stereotypical. I am not attacking you, but are challenging you. The problem is that you cannot accept a challenge but rather must see it as an attack.

Someone physically hurting their partner or a child is displaying strength and aggression and lacking kindness and empathy, hence why this behavior is more likely to be labeled as masculine as opposed to feminine.

First thing you need to do is say that the "label" is incorrect otherwise, you are just adding to the stereotype. Surely you can understand that?

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Did you even read the article? Obviously not, because it's using it exactly like I said.

Newsom had his explanation for the difference. “I think that goes deep to the issue of how we raise our boys to be men, goes deeply into values that we tend to hold dear: power, dominance and aggression over empathy, care and collaboration.”

Heldman said efforts to reduce mass shootings should emphasize reducing what is often termed “toxic masculinity,” the pernicious societal norm that being a man means “you can’t show emotion, that you can’t seek help when you need it, essentially that you can’t be fully human, you can’t be vulnerable.”

Encouraging media portrayals that depict boys and men in a vulnerable and realistic way could help reduce mass shootings, she said. Parents can help by examining the ways in which they discourage boys from healthy expressions of emotion.

“We know from studies that even feminist mothers will give girls, their daughters, more sympathy when they are hurt than their sons, which encourages boys to hide their pain and to deprioritize their pain, and view it as not being something that they can show the world,” Heldman said.

Madfis said mental health professionals also could play a role in preventing violent behavior by considering their patients’ conceptions of masculinity during counseling.

“Try to address mental health from a perspective that actually addresses men as men,” he said. “Try to grapple with healthy forms of masculinity, and try to reject the more toxic and problematic forms of masculinity.”

It's not about male actions. It's about how we raise boys. It's all about societal norms that are placed upon men.

Masculinity--true masculinity--is no longer under attack because it has been equated with shitty male actions

If you would have read your own source you would have noticed that they quite clearly differentiate between toxic masculinity and healthy masculinity.

Why are you even trying to argue if you can't even be bothered to understand what you are arguing about?

Your willful ignorance is just annoying

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I see.

but a man acting too much of a man, extremely stoic, unemotional and aggressive, in a way a woman could not replicate, this man would be a defective woman in the eyes of a femtrash, and would be exhibiting toxic masculinity.

I disagree. Here's a good explanation of it:

"Toxic masculinity refers to the notion that some people’s idea of “manliness” perpetuates domination, homophobia, and aggression.

This idea that men need to act tough and avoid showing all emotions can be harmful to their mental health and can have serious consequences for society, which is how it became known as “toxic masculinity.”" (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-masculinity-5075107)

You don't see the disconnect in the term "femtrash" vs. the term "mansplain" or "manspreading"? Really?

since femtrash cannot see the inherent sexism in these terms, they should not have any problem with my term.

The parts of the words that refer to male ("man") or female ("fem") are not the problem. The part of the word that refers to another human being as "trash", however, is the problem. "Spreading" is neutral. "Explain" is neutral. "Trash" is inflammatory and derogatory.

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Toxic masculinity is a fraud because it never admits that women have inherently feminine outlooks on masculinity that is toxic, standards not rooted in Patriarchy or Conservatism

I'm not sure what is meant by "inherently feminine" outlooks, can you please explain?

It is a fraud because it blames all of men's problems on men, on Patriarchy, on male institutions, and never holds women responsible.

So women are responsible for men's problems is what you're saying?

Also, blaming problems on the patriarchal hierarchy is not blaming men. It's blaming social structure.

In feminism women as a class can do no wrong. That is wrong with that ideology.

That's simply not true. Just off the top of my head feminists' rebukes of white feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism immediately come to mind.

[–]LeJacquelopeMale thirst is as much our enemy as female hypergamy 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what is meant by "inherently feminine" outlooks, can you please explain?

Women demand that men be stronger and confident while themselves bringing none of this to the table. We're the ones who have to prove dominance, and women love dominant men, any idiot knows that.

Also ask yourself why there's no feminism when a natural disaster strikes. Women see men as fucking disposable - if lives need to be at risk they ain't the ones stepping up. Disposability is the most toxic of all influences on masculinity. And it's not just human women, males are treated as disposable throughout the animal kingdom.

So women are responsible for men's problems is what you're saying?

They're responsible for weeding out men that they see as weak while happily demanding that men accept their weaknesses. Women aren't entirely responsible for our problems but they are partially responsible, they are responsible for refusing to stop treating men as disposable.

Also, blaming problems on the patriarchal hierarchy is not blaming men. It's blaming social structure.

Yes it absolutely is. Patriarchy is men, there is no female element there whatsoever. The problem is that it is an absolute lie. Women, even feminists, love men who infantalize them. Feminists rant about Patriarchy while sexually rewarding men who do the very "patriarchal" things that feminists denounce. That shows that this isn't about Patriarchy. Patriarchy is nothing but a gender dog whistle.

In a feminist world men are still disposable. In existing matriarchal societies like the Musuo men are disposable - they own no property, women own all the property, and kids don't even know or care who their daddy is. You talk to me about the promise of feminism but the Musuo and currently existing cultures like them are the reality of it.

That's simply not true. Just off the top of my head feminists' rebukes of white feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism immediately come to mind.

Glad you brought that up. White feminism is rebuked for its racism. TERFs are rebuked for their anti-Trans culture. Nowhere did you mention an example of feminism acknowledging the existence of misandry, the hatred of men, much less calling it out. Feminists all say that misandry doesn't even exist. And that is another reason why the movement is fraudulent.

[–]PollaTronante 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Women demand that men be stronger and confident while themselves bringing none of this to the table. We're the ones who have to prove dominance, and women love dominant men, any idiot knows that.

That’s a sweeping generalization. Are women saying this, or are Red Pillers saying this while subsequently claiming that any woman who says she doesn’t require a dominant man is a liar?

Also ask yourself why there's no feminism when a natural disaster strikes. Women see men as fucking disposable - if lives need to be at risk they ain't the ones stepping up. Disposability is the most toxic of all influences on masculinity. And it's not just human women, males are treated as disposable throughout the animal kingdom.

I’m not sure why you think feminism would have something to do with disaster relief. I do think male disposability is a valid issue but that it’s a byproduct of the patriarchy.

Yes it absolutely is. Patriarchy is men, there is no female element there whatsoever. The problem is that it is an absolute lie. Women, even feminists, love men who infantalize them. Feminists rant about Patriarchy while sexually rewarding men who do the very "patriarchal" things that feminists denounce. That shows that this isn't about Patriarchy. Patriarchy is nothing but a gender dog whistle.

Your linked article talks about benevolent sexism (BS), not infantilization.

“One prominent explanation has been that BS is an “insidious” ideology: Women like BS because they respond to its “subjectively positive” appearance without being aware of its subtly harmful effects.

“BS tends not to be recognized as sexism by those who are exposed to it and therefore is likely to remain unchallenged”

"One account that elaborates on the insidiously harmful view to explain women’s active preference for BS men over non-BS men is the protection racket hypothesis. According to this hypothesis, women adopt BS attitudes because it helps them deal with the threat of men’s HS by rewarding them with protection, provision, and affection (Glick & Fiske, 2001; Sarlet, Dumont, Delacollette, & Dardenne, 2012; Sibley et al., 2009). One study showed that in nations where men endorsed higher levels of HS, women endorsed higher levels of BS (Glick et al., 2000). The authors interpreted these findings as showing that women are more likely to value the benefits offered by BS in cultures in which they perceive men to be hostile."

So if you don't like that some women appear to be attracted to benevolent sexism, a solution would be to work on lowering the amount of hostile sexism that women face.

In a feminist world men are still disposable. In existing matriarchal societies like the Musuo men are disposable - they own no property, women own all the property, and kids don't even know or care who their daddy is. You talk to me about the promise of feminism but the Musuo and currently existing cultures like them are the reality of it.

How can you claim no patriarchy exists and then claim that the matriarchy exists? What would you call a society where historically men have held the political, social, and economic power?

Furthermore, feminism is not about creating a matriarchal society to replace the patriarchy, it is about eliminating patriarchies and matriarchies altogether.

Glad you brought that up. White feminism is rebuked for its racism. TERFs are rebuked for their anti-Trans culture. Nowhere did you mention an example of feminism acknowledging the existence of misandry, the hatred of men, much less calling it out. Feminists all say that misandry doesn't even exist. And that is another reason why the movement is fraudulent.

Not all, but some feminists claim it doesn’t exist because it’s analogous to “reverse racism” and men have not been systemically oppressed in our society.

[–]LeJacquelopeMale thirst is as much our enemy as female hypergamy 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That’s a sweeping generalization. Are women saying this, or are Red Pillers saying this while subsequently claiming that any woman who says she doesn’t require a dominant man is a liar?

Women say it all the time here - they require the man to be confident. For instance he has to make the first move. Women here have said they don't like insecurity in men. They don't like weak men.

I do think male disposability is a valid issue but that it’s a byproduct of the patriarchy.

Again, wrong. How do you explain the fact that males are treated as disposable across the animal kingdom where there is no patriarchy? Men are also disposable in currently existing human matriarchal societies like the Musuo, where no one knows or cares who their father is and men don't own property. How do you explain that?

Your linked article talks about benevolent sexism (BS), not infantilization.

It is infantilization. Infantilization is giving women preferential treatment which is what benevolent sexism is all about.

“One prominent explanation has been that BS is an “insidious” ideology: Women like BS because they respond to its “subjectively positive” appearance without being aware of its subtly harmful effects.

This doesn't negate my point - it enhances it.

“BS tends not to be recognized as sexism by those who are exposed to it and therefore is likely to remain unchallenged”

No shit, most women and feminists lack self-awareness regarding this.

So if you don't like that some women appear to be attracted to benevolent sexism, a solution would be to work on lowering the amount of hostile sexism that women face.

This is a shitty trait that punishes good men for the acts of bad men. Innocent men can't be held responsible for the acts of other bad acting men unless we get to hold all women responsible for the acts of bad acting women.

How can you claim no patriarchy exists and then claim that the matriarchy exists? What would you call a society where historically men have held the political, social, and economic power?

In America, Patriarchy is currently a dog whistle. Although I will give you the GOP, they want to bring it back. That ain't ever happening. In China the Musuo are by any definition imaginable a hard core matriarchy.

Furthermore, feminism is not about creating a matriarchal society to replace the patriarchy, it is about eliminating patriarchies and matriarchies altogether.

No it's not. Feminism doesn't even mention matriarchies. Literally feminism denies misandry or sexism by women against men even exists.

Not all, but some feminists claim it doesn’t exist because it’s analogous to “reverse racism” and men have not been systemically oppressed in our society.

Not true. For instance try being a battered man. Literally the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence says women battering men is a trivial issue. This has been codified into the Violence Against Women Act. That's why battered men get arrested when they call for help. Literally, feminists, who created the Duluth Model, legally systemized the act of discriminating against battered men. That's just one example. I can bring up others.

[–]PollaTronante 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women say it all the time here - they require the man to be confident. For instance he has to make the first move. Women here have said they don't like insecurity in men. They don't like weak men.

Some women want a confident man, just like some men want a confident woman. Definitely not all women require men to make the first move or to be free of insecurities.

Again, wrong. How do you explain the fact that males are treated as disposable across the animal kingdom where there is no patriarchy?

Actually, there are patriarchies in the animal kingdom. Some are even matriarchies.

Men are also disposable in currently existing human matriarchal societies like the Musuo, where no one knows or cares who their father is and men don't own property. How do you explain that?

I will address this below.

It is infantilization. Infantilization is giving women preferential treatment which is what benevolent sexism is all about.

I’d say infantilization is different from merely giving someone preferential treatment, but I can see the parallels.

This doesn't negate my point - it enhances it.

I'd say women should be more aware that benevolent sexism is still in fact sexism. As it stands, women who reject benevolent sexism are often viewed negatively.

No shit, most women and feminists lack self-awareness regarding this.

Agreed, and it’s unfortunate. Many women have internalized misogyny.

This is a shitty trait that punishes good men for the acts of bad men. Innocent men can't be held responsible for the acts of other bad acting men unless we get to hold all women responsible for the acts of bad acting women.

I didn’t say anything about punishment. Feminists work towards lowering the amount of hostile sexism women face, even though they did not cause the sexism themselves.

In America, Patriarchy is currently a dog whistle. Although I will give you the GOP, they want to bring it back. That ain't ever happening. In China the Musuo are by any definition imaginable a hard core matriarchy.

Back to the Mosuo/Na people, upon further inspection you previously stated a few things which are false. For one, they are better described as matrilineal than matriarchal. Two, men are not treated as disposable, and three, children usually know who their fathers are.

“They have aspects of a matriarchal culture: women are often the head of the house, inheritance is through the female line, and women make business decisions. However, unlike a matriarchy, the political power tends to be in the hands of males.”

“According to some, men have no responsibility in Mosuo society—they have no jobs, rest all day, and conserve their strength for nighttime visits.[11] However, Mosuo men do have roles in their society. They help to bring up the children of their sisters and female cousins, build houses and are in charge of livestock and fishing,[9] which they learn from their uncles and older male family members as soon as they are old enough.”

"The large majority of women know their children's fathers; it is actually a source of embarrassment if a mother cannot identify a child's father.”

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo)

If you don’t believe America is a patriarchy, do you believe it used to be one? And if so, when did this change?

If the GOP wants to bring back/strengthen the patriarchy in America, doesn’t this prove that we need a way to fight back against ensuring that doesn’t happen? Hence where feminists come in.

I do want to address your points regarding matriarchies, misandry, and battered men, but I will make that a separate comment.

[–]LeJacquelopeMale thirst is as much our enemy as female hypergamy 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitely not all women require men to make the first move or to be free of insecurities.

The number of women who are not like that are so low as to be inconsequential. In my opinion more men have been hit by falling meteors than have actually met one.

Actually, there are patriarchies in the animal kingdom. Some are even matriarchies.

How many patriarchies do you see in the animal kingdom?

I’d say infantilization is different from merely giving someone preferential treatment, but I can see the parallels.

How is it different? With preferential treatment you're basically saying she can't hack it in life without some gender bonuses.

I'd say women should be more aware that benevolent sexism is still in fact sexism. As it stands, women who reject benevolent sexism are often viewed negatively.

Interesting. By who, would you say?

Agreed, and it’s unfortunate. Many women have internalized misogyny.

Why can't you just admit it's misandry?

I didn’t say anything about punishment. Feminists work towards lowering the amount of hostile sexism women face, even though they did not cause the sexism themselves.

Like I said it's holding innocent men responsible for the acts of bad men.

Back to the Mosuo/Na people, upon further inspection you previously stated a few things which are false. For one, they are better described as matrilineal than matriarchal. Two, men are not treated as disposable, and three, children usually know who their fathers are.

Really now? I mean, literally, they don't even have a word for 'father'. Or husband, for that matter. Literally their roles are erased from their system. How can they know who their father is if they don't even have a word for it?

“According to some, men have no responsibility in Mosuo society—they have no jobs, rest all day, and conserve their strength for nighttime visits

YIKES. That's actually even worse than I was saying.

They help to bring up the children of their sisters and female cousins, build houses

Houses they don't even own... here we call that a dystopia.

If you don’t believe America is a patriarchy, do you believe it used to be one? And if so, when did this change?

Yes it used to be a patriarchy. That ended with women getting the right to vote.

If the GOP wants to bring back/strengthen the patriarchy in America, doesn’t this prove that we need a way to fight back against ensuring that doesn’t happen? Hence where feminists come in.

Hence where egalitarians come in. As an egalitarian I fear the GOP more than I fear feminist nutjobs like Julie Bindel. One good word for feminists, they don't go on mass shootings like right wingers do. I voted for Clinton and Biden. I hit the phone banks to get out the vote. You and I see eye to eye about those people. I'd rather be surrounded by a dozen angry feminists than have one Trump supporter backing me up.

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Toxic masculinity is a fraud because it never admits that women have inherently feminine outlooks on masculinity that is toxic, standards not rooted in Patriarchy or Conservatism

Despite what the red pill falsely claims you do not need to be an emotionless asshole in order to attract women.

It is a fraud because it blames all of men's problems on men, on Patriarchy, on male institutions, and never holds women responsible.

So it is a fraud because you are unable to even understand what it means?

How do things like "calling men pussies for wearing a bicycle helmet is toxic masculinity", "shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity" or "calling men faggots for ordering a vegan meal is toxic masculinity" put the blame solely on men?

Anyone with basic reading comprehension skills understands that the blame isn't put on men but on society - which obviously includes women.

[–]MoreAlfa 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeJacquelopeMale thirst is as much our enemy as female hypergamy 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Despite what the red pill falsely claims you do not need to be an emotionless asshole in order to attract women.

Women routinely mock weak men. Many women date men who are bullies because they like strong men. Feminism doesn't even go after women who do this.

How do things like "calling men pussies for wearing a bicycle helmet is toxic masculinity", "shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity" or "calling men faggots for ordering a vegan meal is toxic masculinity" put the blame solely on men?

Because feminists never call out women who do this, in fact when examples get brought up they go 100% silent. You are intentionally trying to cover for this and put it on others and accuse them of "not understanding." Typical feminist defensiveness. Because you don't have an actual logical counterpoint.

Oh and there's this, too - feminists want men who are sexist as long as it benefits women. And there's this, too. Feminists like sexist men more. But instead of admitting these facts, feminists like to do gymnastics and justify it instead of condemning it.

Oh and this is where you start launching personal attacks at me, lol

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women routinely mock weak men. Many women date men who are bullies because they like strong men. Feminism doesn't even go after women who do this.

But they do.

When feminists say that shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity this criticism applies to women as well. Criticism of societal norms obviously applies to women as well, as they are part of society.

Because feminists never call out women who do this, in fact when examples get brought up they go 100% silent

That's just what you want to feel, but that's not what's happening.

Oh and there's this, too - feminists want men who are sexist as long as it benefits women. And there's this, too. Feminists like sexist men more. But instead of admitting these facts, feminists like to do gymnastics and justify it instead of condemning it.

All I'm getting from this is that you think that women=feminists and that you are unable to understand that women aren't a hive mind

[–]LeJacquelopeMale thirst is as much our enemy as female hypergamy 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When feminists say that shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity this criticism applies to women as well. Criticism of societal norms obviously applies to women as well, as they are part of society.

Where? When? That's all talk. There is zero action behind it.

That's just what you want to feel, but that's not what's happening.

Where? When? There was zero feminist groups berating other feminists who are like this. This author never got called out by any group whatsoever. Zero feminist groups complaining about women like this, either. No feminist groups calling out women who are like this either.

Tell me, what feminist group protested this? What feminist group came out and said that women shouldn't be doing this? Well I can show you where feminists mock battered men and physically disrupt battered men's forums, all without any condemnation from the movement.

All I'm getting from this is that you think that women=feminists and that you are unable to understand that women aren't a hive mind

Nope, women != feminists. Feminists are, however, a fraud and a giant pack of lies.

Now I know you're pretty irritated right now and you probably don't like what I wrote. Before you start raging out here's one simple request for you. I've pointed out a whole lot of examples of feminism doing nothing at all to address sexism against men by women. I'm accusing the movement of being all hat and no cattle.

Show me the cattle.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago* (34 children) | Copy Link

There's very little confusion. Speaking in communist terms,

"toxic masculinity" is a dog whistle.

What is presented: "Toxic masculinity is aspects of masculinity harmful to society and to men themselves. Part of toxic masculinity is homophobia".

What is actually said: "Men, and only men, are to blame for LGBT teenagers being disowned and running away from their homes."

Other wonderful examples:

Men, and only men, are to blame for scale and impact of COVID pandemic.

Oh, this one's even better

(both images are obtained through Google image search on "Toxic Masculinity")

Go to Google Scholar and search for toxic masculinity. Pop your dog whistle goggles, and observe.

Men are to blame for global warming.

This one's even better: PETRO-MASCULINITY holy shit, these people call themselves academics.

You'll need to be literally brain-dead not to see the message. Men are to blame for their own suffering. Men are to blame for women's suffering. Men are to blame for suffering of animals. Men are to blame for suffering of the world. And men are to blame for when they are pointed at this fact, they resist and rage and teach each other not to listen.

The only way to stop suffering is to force men to change, and let women lead this change. Or, in simplier terms, to make men more like women.

There's virtually nothing to be confused about or to misunderstand.

As perfectly demonstrated by Fleischpeitsch in responses, one of the main purposes of dog whistles is to maintain plausible deniability.

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And?

Men, and only men, are to blame for scale

Talking about the possibility of psychological impacts causing a group of men not wanting to wear masks because of self perceived hit to masculinity (TLDR; Toxic masculinity) is not 'Men are only to blame', I went back and read the articles the pics are attached to and none of them say men are to blame, no where near. Hell you even get to blame society and how you were raised rather than just being a dumb entitled bitch.

And it's also a interesting concept that seems pretty spot on. Sure, it wouldn't be the reason for all men who don't wear masks but for many its hitting the nail on the head. The same reasons men die more to preventable illness because they put off going to a doctor and so on.

Before 'Toxic masculinity' was a word there was the concept of 'The Male ego' which is basically the same thing. It's not new.

That's not to say there are not people who take the concept too far or use it simply to be derogatory.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]nemma8832/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

> Look at those images and show me which character on them is "society".

That's not what I meant. I meant just because a person writes an articles about a subset of men and issues particular to men psychologically doesn't mean they think AMALT and men are to blame for everything. Just because RP and whatever can't separate talking about a group or issue within a subgroup from AWALT and women are to blame for everything doesn't mean everyone does, and by in large in general people don't think in terms of black and white. They can understand the implications and that it's not a universal trait and not only men.

> Men, and only men, are to blame for scale and impact of COVID pandemic

The bit bolded is not referenced in the article, this is the closest to that statement.

That same day, when the Democratic presidential nominee, Joseph R. Biden Jr., posted a video of himself on Twitter wearing a face mask, the Fox News host Tomi Lahren suggested that he “carry a purse with that.” The implication: No strong, powerful man would resort to mask wearing.

That mask-wearing has become such a gendered issue isn’t surprising for public health researchers. A 2016 paper by the Los Alamos National Laboratory found that men are less likely than women to adopt protective behaviors, like washing hands, social distancing and wearing masks. More recently, three different studies — published this summer by Cambridge University Press — arrived at the same conclusions.

You seem to be taking Umbridge more because you feel it a personal attack. The article is pretty well sourced and more importantly it's not wrong. You can disagree with if the effect is toxic or not but absolutely going maskless is seen as a display of masculinity (In America, and for the most part just America), and there is a subgroup like Tomi Lahren who strait up called someone unmasculine (non masculine?) for wearing one.

"Men die more to preventable illness" because healthcare system does not provide healthcare to men in ways that are sufficient and acceptable.

Well, in my country it's much the same. Regular screening dates for things like cervical or prostate cancer and that's about it unless you go to a GP, and anyone can register with our national health service. And men still die more from preventable illnesses.

My partner had hemorrhoid's. Not nice small hemorrhoid's big nasty fckers that fairly frequently would cause a lot of pain and days where he couldn't walk after going to the toilet.

He got them removed when I pushed him to see the GP after 10 years of having them pretty bad . He now only takes 10 min loo breaks rather than 45. Many men feel they want to take care of problems by themselves and not rely on others and that Pride also extends to not bothering the GP about it. That pride is also a good thing and can be utilized as a boon under different circumstances, and some of the not so controversial talk on toxic masculinity is how to accommodate men rather than decry or change them fundamentally.

Edit; Heres a humorous female only bash on the anti mask issue so we can restore balance -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdUEUXKl-S4

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Men, and only men, are to blame for scale and impact of COVID pandemic

this is the closest to that statement

OH FUCK OFF:

"You wrote in your newsletter, The Ink, that President Trump removing his mask on the White House balcony was a show of toxic masculinity. Explain." - "I grew up in America and, having lived through this culture, I recognized in the fear and false bravado the same !!!MEN!!! who threw me into lockers at school."

Emphasis mine.

Many men feel they want to take care of problems by themselves and not rely on others

No; many men feel that female medical personnel is comprised mostly of cunts who have a wonderful habit of laughing at men's pain in their very faces.

There were quite probably literally zero cases of a man saying "I was at a doctor's office" and anyone SERIOUSLY, UNIRONICALLY replying "hahahaaaaa pussy".

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And that this article quite clearly states that the aversion to masks stems from societal norms that make men believe that dying would be better than protecting themselves, as protecting themselves would only result in ridicule.

No; "society" does not exist, made up things such as "toxic masculinity" can't talk to "tell" anything, and this article clearly states that those norms are men's fault:

"You wrote in your newsletter, The Ink, that President Trump removing his mask on the White House balcony was a show of toxic masculinity. Explain." - "I grew up in America and, having lived through this culture, I recognized in the fear and false bravado the same !!!MEN!!! who threw me into lockers at school."

Within feminist theory, "society" is very much equivalent to "men". The "toxic masculinity" dog whistle is aimed at people familiar with feminist theory.

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That's because a lot of so called feminists themselves use it wrong. Yes, that is what it is supposed to mean since it was originally created by male activists. Feminists later appropriated the term. While some do use it correctly, I have met many who do in fact use it in a way to say "masculinity itself is toxic". In the sense that the existence of masculinity is a threat to no gender roles, femininity, or whatever. I notice it is used alongside terms like "masculinity so fragile" to mock men. Yes, you're right if it is used correctly it isn't necessarily mocking men. The problem is there are plenty of women who DO use it to mock men, and I would bet more men have met women who do the latter rather than the former IRL. My most recent ex herself would use the "masculinity so fragile" line to shame men she didn't like or disagreed with. It is like how people use the word "literally" in a way that is totally opposite of how it should be used, "literally blew my top off".

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Complain to the Men's Rights Activists Shepherd Bliss and Robert Bly that created this term back in the 90s

Mythopoetic men thus speak of the need to recover "deep masculinity," to distinguish what they regard as genuine or mature masculinity from the problematic toxic masculinity of immature males

The movement seeks to restore the "deep masculine" to men who have lost it in their more modern lifestyles.

Other causes claimed by advocates for the loss of the "deep masculine" include:

Men no longer being comrades who celebrated their masculinity together. Rather, they had become competitors within their workplaces.

Men spending more time in their houses with women than they did with men (in non-competitive terms outside of work). Excessive interaction with women generally kept men from realizing their internal masculinity.

Feminism bringing attention to the 'feminine voice.' Through this, the mythopoetic men felt that their voices had been muted.

The separation of men from their fathers kept them from being truly initiated into manhood, and was a source of emotional damage.

Men were suffering further emotional damage due to feminist accusations about sexism. Men should celebrate their differences from women, rather than feeling guilty about them.

Men being discouraged from expressing their emotions. Male inexpressivity is an epidemic and does not correspond to their "deep masculine" natures.

[–][deleted] 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]FleischpeitschBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The idea that it's used to bash men is just a misunderstanding that's based on the fact that no red piller ever seems to have taken a look at a single article about Toxic Masculinity.

Toxic Masculinity is always about how society harms men, but never about the actions of men. The blame is always put on society. It's even in the name. Masculinity refers to cultural standards that are placed on men, so toxic masculinity obviously refers to harmful gender norms that society pushes on men.

What feminists say: "shaming men for expressing feelings other than anger is toxic masculinity"

What red pillers falsely assume this means: "men being stoic are toxic"

What feminists say: "calling men faggots for ordering a veggie meal is toxic masculinity"

What red pillers falsely assume this means: "men eating meat is toxic"

Toxic Masculinity is always a criticism of how society doesn't care about men except for what they can provide.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/mf8mb9/feminism_mega_thread/gstqwoi?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

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