Most of what gets called “manipulation” and “grooming” seems to be just seduction people don’t like

slavette6 · 2024-01-24T12:38:27+00:00

As a woman in an age gap relationship, I get a lot of "grooming" accusations for my fiance, who is 12 years older than me (I am 24 and he is 36), but only on the internet. We're both consenting adults, I am very happy in this relationship and have only improved since starting this relationship. No exploitation or abuse happened. But people, as soon as they see our age gap, jump to conclusions and accuse him of grooming. Which, to be honest, besides being insulting to my partner, is insulting to me because I feel infantilized and like they don't believe my decision-making abilities. This used to happen only on Western subreddits (or ones mostly populated by Americans), but I recently got the same reaction on my country's subreddit. This is interesting because no one in my real life judges my relationship. My friends and family are all supportive since they've only seen the positive change in me in this relationship. But even if I say that I've only made progress on the internet, they still call it grooming, call my partner a creep and tell me that "I am groomed but I don't know yet", which I find condescending.

I definitely think the word has lost its meaning and has been watered down on the internet.

SpitFireSpear · 2024-01-24T12:47:22+00:00

Okay seriously, the constant age gap whining. If you are 50, and want a gf of 21, people are going to think its weird, no matter how many positives you say.

It is however, legal. And you need to stop giving a fuck if this is what you want

MyLastBestChance · 2024-01-24T12:01:01+00:00

Nobody is preventing relationships between 2 legal adults 🤷‍♀️.

Not everything that is legal is socially popular. The bigger question is why do you guys whine about it so much?

The real problem seems to be that some men think that they should get cookies instead of criticism from strangers and don’t want to be held socially accountable for their own behavior.

obviousredflag · 2024-01-24T11:56:54+00:00

in the west women not only have almost a complete autonomy when it comes to picking their partners, they have also reached economic independence, [...] am not claiming this, women themselves are quite proud of not needing no men to marry anymore.

You make it sound like this is a preposterous development. Men have the same ability to pick their partners autonomously, be economically independent and don't need to marry anymore to have a fulfilling family life or social status in the society.

Most of what gets called “manipulation” and “grooming” seems to be just seduction people don’t like

It's not the difference of liking one and not the other. It's a difference in assumed intention to exploit and negatively influence.

Seduction:

Intent: Seduction generally involves charming or appealing to someone in a positive and often romantic or sexual manner. It can be a consensual and mutual process where both parties are willingly engaged.
Positive Connotation: Seduction is not necessarily negative, as it can involve persuasion through attraction, charisma, or allure. It may be part of interpersonal relationships and can be seen as a form of positive influence.

Manipulation:

Intent: Manipulation, on the other hand, involves influencing someone with the intent to deceive, control, or exploit. It often includes cunning tactics to achieve a specific outcome that may not be in the best interest of the manipulated individual.
Negative Connotation: Manipulation is generally viewed negatively because it often involves deceit and undermines the autonomy of the person being manipulated. It can be coercive and unethical.

wtknight · 2024-01-24T12:16:16+00:00

My view is that men have the innate ability to deceive for the purposes of sex. Even a man who enters into a relationship fully intent upon making that relationship work and who soon grows tired sexually of that woman is, in a sense, "deceiving" her.

Since younger women are more likely to fall victims of men's varying deception tactics that serve to find a variety of sexual experiences, women are right to be concerned about these women, especially as these women's past sexual experiences are still looked at negatively by much of society, and due to the emotional harm of wanting a loving relationship with a man but only being used for sex by him.

Not to let women off the hook, but they use men for resources the same as men often use women for sex. However, fewer women in the west now need to do this due to women's greater financial autonomy. Maybe if there is someday a way for men to have sex easily and cheaply, such as sex robots or VR programs, we will be in the same situation with men. But as of now, women, and especially younger, more inexperienced women, still rightfully need to be concerned about men manipulating them sexually.

TermAggravating8043 · 2024-01-24T12:00:16+00:00

Op, you answered this in your own post.

In a world where woman are equal to men and don’t ‘need’ them to survive, men are then actively looking for vulnerable woman, be them young, poor, or from a country where woman don’t have the same rights as men

AccomplishedMovie804 · 2024-01-24T12:55:19+00:00

When you use the words "manipulation" and "grooming", those words hit home for me. I was manipulated and groomed by a Sociopath. Not understanding what love bombing was, I fell for her so hard. During the 9 months of our marriage, I was manipulated, gaslighted, projected, and completely lied to. Our entire relationship was based on lies. It took me about 9 months to start understanding what was going on. That shit is traumatizing!

Literal_Jesus_ · 2024-01-24T15:58:04+00:00

TBH I'm in an age gap relationship we met when I was 26 and he was 35. It's pretty much like dating anyone else in terms of our conversations and relationship.

However with the same age gap at 22 I don't think it would be healthy or make sense tbh. We would have been in very drastically different stages of life and I do think we would have gotten more eyebrow raises. (We definitely do now but that's from strangers not from people in our lives)

I'm an actress and I've dealt with the dark side of this. At 24 a man pushing 40 attempted to "groom" me (I'm not even sure that's the right verbiage in this context). I was on a contract on location and a cast member that I had to work with (that was also the choreographer) in very close proximity, kept trying to get me to cheat on my then boyfriend. He kept trying to get me to drink/take drugs/would make passes at me, would find excuses to get close to me/would follow me when I'd leave rooms and situations when he didn't need to. After multiple conversations the behavior continued. He started being mean to me in front of the cast and take whatever opportunity he could to "punish me" for not returning his advances in private.

It was shitty and confusing because when this started I thought we were friends/coworkers but turns out he was just trying to get laid and was willing to be fucking predatory if he didn't get his way. I picked up on how predatory his behavior was when he started pulling the same shit the moment an additional actress (who was 22) that was brought onto the project. That was when the alarm bells clicked that this wasn't just a "weird dynamic" and this was that guys MO from the jump. Luckily I'm not a dumbass and I didn't cheat on my boyfriend and I started being an asshole to him directly. It's a huge reason why I avoid cast housing/touring now. Even though we were "both adult" the context of our forced proximitiy, the power differential, *the lack of HR on most performing contracts* and our isolation made it problematic and border into harassment. He was essentially trying to wear me down until I gave in by praising me in private and shaming me in public and CONSTANTLY flip flopping and making it to where I just stopped letting myself be alone with him altogether. Idk if you'd call that grooming but now if I see a dude with similar traits creeping on my friend I call it out IMMEDIATELY.

I'll use another example.

When I was in college our choreographer for West Side Story was outed as a predator after he assaulted a cast member at a summer stock show. We then found out that many of the boys in our cast had been DMing him long term during the run and after the run of the show. Dude had a roster of college boys that he was stringing along. That dynamic is legally consensual but with the power differential and his history of predatory behavior it becomes something gross and I'd argue sinister.

Idk when I think about Groomers I'm thinking about men in positions of power or men who are significantly older that (to be frank) are super predatory in how they approach dating with little regard to what is and isn't appropriate and how his actions are affecting the other party. I knew too many 17 year olds with 25 year old boyfriends, to me that's grooming. Or 13 year old students that end up marrying their 8th grade math teacher the moment you turn 18.

I think a 20 year old dating a 40 year old is a waste of time for the woman tbh, but I chalk that up to an unwise decision the woman is making not that the guy is inherently a predator. As long as everything is consensual I don't care.

fuckredditmodz69 · 2024-01-24T16:52:07+00:00

Grooming only applies to adults trying to set up a relationship with minors like you said. Adults are adults and people can fuck off. Saying girls are "manipulated" by men takes away all accountability for the choices they made. People need to stop interjecting into consenting adults choices.

spletharg2 · 2024-01-24T19:54:30+00:00

With regards to manipulation, if any attempt to manipulate makes a woman into a victim, them perhaps all advertising should be banned since it victimizes viewers by being manipulative.

his_purple_majesty · 2024-01-24T23:49:44+00:00

Older men are pathetic losers who can't attract women their own age but also master manipulators who are able to effortlessly bend college-aged women to their will.

They spent the last decade rotting in their mothers' basements, not making any progress on themselves as people, still lacking basic skills like cooking, laundry, personal hygiene, etc. but they also gained supreme mastery over others due to all their additional life experience as older men.

Lenovo_Driver · 2024-01-24T14:00:28+00:00

Society doesn’t give a fuck about older men dating younger women..

Look at how each of Hugh Hefner’s new bimbo of the day would be paraded. He was old as dirt picking women as soon as they were legal and nothing was ever done to stop that. People complained about it sure, but people complain about everything people do, that doesn’t make these voices the prevailing voice of society.

Regardless, none of this will ever be the reality of anyone posting here. This just reads as more red pilled delusion, where a bunch of red pilled dudes are trying to convince themselves that one day in their 40s, women in their 20s are gonna want them if they stay based and redpilled enough and practice all the theory via “seduction”.

It takes a serious level of delusion to actually believe young women are physically attracted to old dudes, and aren’t doing it for his wealth and status.

KayRay1994 · 2024-01-24T15:22:58+00:00

Why did I know intuitively that this would not only be about age gaps, but also about age gaps with women in their early 20s.

That being said, in the past, men manipulating women was far more normalized and accepted than it is now - is there an argument for overcorrection and calling manipulation when there isn’t? sure - but it is worth noting that this is coming from a place of a lack of balance

Now for your second point - the issue with a far older person person dating someone who’s in their early 20s (i say early 20s cause age gaps don’t matter when one begins to hit their mid/late 20s) is that people in their early 20s are barely adults, barely know themselves and are far more easily mailable. A much older person is generally speaking, more established, more sure of themselves and has a clearer image of what they want. In other words, you’re not only stopping the younger person from finding themselves, but you’re also creating a dependency on you.

spletharg2 · 2024-01-24T19:34:59+00:00

All women are victims of men's grooming because they don't have the physical or mental ability to defend themselves and so they, like children, are a special category of person that needs special protections and treatment. All men are big bad evil supervillains and only exist to harm women. At least that's the general message I see on the internet.

velvetalocasia · 2024-01-24T11:56:49+00:00

How dare women not wanting to be groomed and manipulated. How dare they not wanting to be lied to.

Funny how you describe conscious actions as „circumstances“ as if those men you describe don’t know what they are doing and have no control over their actions.

Sabrepill · 2024-01-24T16:18:20+00:00

What you’re describing is the woke mind virus. False victimhood, moral outrage, moral weaponization, virtue signaling. It’s weak people trying to appear relevant by judging others.

You should read the story of Grover Cleveland, a US president who married a teenager when he was about 50. They ended up having like 10 kids and a really good marriage. There are millions of stories just like this but it makes man haters extremely upset

ColbyXXXX · 2024-01-24T20:12:50+00:00

I always laugh when I see people say “what does that old man see in that young girl”. She is attractive. Thats all she needs for him to be interested in dating her lol.

safestuff987 · 2024-01-24T20:13:44+00:00

While I don't doubt that some women end up in sticky situations, I see the whole "I was manipulated into this" thing very commonly being used as a smokescreen for Western women to sidestep accountability for their own poor decisions.

"Poor decisions" doesn't even necessarily have to mean that she chose a bad partner either. Some of these women probably chose partners who aren't objectively bad partners at all, maybe they're just incompatible or maybe they're just upset that their boyfriends/husbands don't perfectly fit their exact criteria of what an ideal partner would be.

edjohn88 · 2024-01-25T05:06:08+00:00

1000%

There is real grooming out there from the likes of H Weinstein etc. People need to develop actionable hate for that shit not young pretty women they typically just envy.

There tends to be an “imbalance” in every single relationship… opposites attracting makes life exciting. TBH the majority of my subs have been older than me, and often just as intelligent, but they choose to submit because it unlocks a different type of passion. To the right woman, relinquishing SOME agency can be extremely liberating.

thedarkracer · 2024-01-24T12:00:43+00:00

Grooming is mostly referred to be done to kids who don't have much decision making capability and financial independence.

Manipulation on the other hand is easier done to people with a less thinking capability as they think with the heart rather with their brain. So manipulators give them what they want not what they need and they don't think twice. Even the Myyer Briggs puts thinking and feeling as opposites, the more numb you are, the smarter you are. Smart people can develop emotional thinking but never to the level as a normal person which has a dominated feeling trait for example compare an INTJ to INFJ. Search the differences online and see for yourself.

So even though I would agree with manipulation but not with grooming.

Overarching_Chaos · 2024-01-24T14:43:18+00:00

All of this stems from the fundamental understanding that men are "powerful" and women are "powerless", which might have made sense in pre modern technology societies, but this is no longer the case due to the Internet and social media. Hence why only men are seen as groomers and manipulators, when they try to seduce much younger women than themselves, but women are seen as "girl bosses" for doing the same.

It's true that the difference in physical strength between the two genders is still relevant in modern relationships (it's much harder for a woman to physically/sexually assault or threaten a man), but in reality, there are men who only have a chance with much younger, "emotionally immature" women (either due to physical appearance or social status). This is the definition of powerlessness, not power.

Safinated · 2024-01-24T15:18:05+00:00

Is babysitters, family and teachers having sex with boys “seduction”?

RavenWolf1 · 2024-01-24T16:27:16+00:00

Honestly whole age gap is bad mentality stems mainly from older women who are jealous that men are attracted to young looking women. Liking youthful looks are coded in our genes. Both males and females like youthful beauty. Women want to look like them and that is reason why cosmetic industry is so huge. They are very salty when they can't meet that fleeting beauty standards. They are jealous that men want to have those beauties.

I hope soon in future we can cure aging then everyone can look lika 20 years old. I hope that then this whole debate is over and age discrimination as whole ends in society. My worst fear is that then we debate that can 50 year old date with 200 year old?...

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-01-24T15:08:02+00:00

yeh, so what. youre not going to get women to not be made to feel bad by the shit men probably HAVE to do to get sex. you seem to be posting post after post telling women they have no right to feel bad, youre not going to talk women out of not feel bad when seducers, fuckboys and other various men hurt their feelers. to be sexually successful as a man requires hurting womens feelings, this is life

gntlbastard · 2024-01-24T14:18:48+00:00

The older broads have to say that because they are bitter about it. The men who are their age having the ability to attract a younger woman is something most older chicks can't stand. It's because they remember how easy it used to be for them to attract men and now they have to sit on a sidelines and watch what used to be.

AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2024-01-24T11:45:20+00:00

I saw a great meme on Facebook but was never able to find it in the wild. It was in the old meme format where a handsome compliments a woman at her desk and she says awww thanks and then the fat nerd does the same and she starts dialing HR. Except that the woman's photos were replaced with an 18 year old starting an OFs and being called an empowered woman. The second partner the meme, the fat guy was replaced by Leonardo DiCaprio dating a 25 year old and the girl was calling HR.

Ah, the duality of women. Or Schrodinger's women if you will. Simultaneously empowered boss babes AND at the same time the biggest victims in the world who are never responsible for any bad decision they make.

Makuta_Servaela · 2024-01-24T14:22:07+00:00

At some point, maybe the mods should kill age gap posts the same way they kill body count or whatnot posts.

The word “grooming” people thorw around like a power-phrase...

"Grooming" actually refers to any form of guiding someone to believe a certain thing/value, specifically by the groomer targeting people who are uninformed, directing them away from questioning the groomer's guidance, and directing them away from others who have different information than the groomer. The idea that it's just a sexual thing is false.

a 21 year old woman choosing an abortion is seen as empowered in her ability to do so (by left leaning progressive at least), a 21 year old woman falling for a much older guy is a “victim” of manipulation. This makes no sense, but our broader culture states this between the lines.

Anyone of any age is old enough to decide that they don't consent to another being acting on them. The feeling of discomfort is the very first experience we understand. Non-consent is the default state. Consent is the alternative, and requires convincing and information. The age gap concern here is that, depending on the age gap, it is likely that the younger party isn't consenting/informed and is being (by the aforementioned definition) "groomed" into avoiding equal partnerships with equal peers OR the concern that a large swath of older adult men normalizing the idea of youth/innocence in a woman being the favoured traits meaning that women will be culturally pushed, or "collectively groomed" away from independence and intelligence.

McTitty3000 · 2024-01-24T14:50:57+00:00

They are very different terms but I do agree that specifically Femcels love to use these terms to crap on male preferences

Many_Dig_2782 · 2024-01-24T11:38:56+00:00

You’ve already fucked up. You said grooming

Now you’re about to get dozens of responses about grooming children when that’s obviously not the context you wanna talk about

Unfortunate because “manipulation “ is a good debate topic and brings in to question why we take off kid gloves and don’t judge women for everything except the men young women choose

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Flightlessbirbz · 2024-01-24T14:30:36+00:00

I mean yes, there are types of seduction people “don’t like” for good reason, that can be defined as manipulation or grooming. Trying to call it something else doesn’t change what it is or obligate people to approve.

apresonly · 2024-01-24T14:53:08+00:00

Yes, seduction is manipulation.

> The word “grooming” people thorw around like a power-phrase by a scaremongering republican

if you're not triggered by the word grooming, then you can see what people are talking about

if you have an emotional reaction to a word and just dont want it to be used, its going to be hard for you to follow the conversation

> a 21 year old woman choosing an abortion is seen as empowered in her ability to do so (by left leaning progressive at least)

yes it is empowering to not be forced to go through 9 months of pregnancy and labor

do men want to go through this?

does not having to go through forced pregnancy and labor mean that the person is invincible and no one can act immorally towards them? how?

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itm4l2000 · 2024-01-24T14:56:32+00:00

The "chase" is essentially gas lighting men who have a lot going for themselves for mediocre women who are average at best.

Three months max, if she is still trying to get you to commitment your resources and time, in exchange for her "deep emotions" about you, leave as soon as you can.

daddysgotanew · 2024-01-24T20:38:13+00:00

Truth. 20 year old women aren’t getting “groomed” lmao. They know exactly what the score is. More so than men who are way older than them.

ChicktoGo · 2024-01-25T02:09:00+00:00

Poop

No-Rough-7390 · 2024-01-25T12:02:24+00:00

My take, for a while, has been that most women have no idea what they want/what they are into until it’s right in front of them or is actually happening.

As a result, you get a constant post hoc analysis of what transpired based on how it affected their current status.

The_Texidian · 2024-01-25T12:09:16+00:00

I’ve seen this grooming take place irl. She graduated high school and while 18, she met a 30 year old on the apps.

Basically he just gains her trust by going out on dates and love bombing. Then isolated her by making her talk less to her male friends because he wanted more time with her, even went as far as deleting male made music off her phone cause he was jealous.

Anyway. Went about how you imagine. She complied and is completely alone. Her family tried tooth and nail to get her out of there but she loved him. Eventually they moved in together…and that’s when the guy took her car away because “they couldn’t afford 2 car payments” and then demanded to move out in the middle of nowhere where she knew nobody.

As far as I know. He’s trying to get her pregnant now. They aren’t married. She can’t go anywhere without him taking her because she isn’t allowed to drive his car. And she can’t have friends unless he approves of them. She’s now 23 and he’s 35 or 36.

mergeoh · 2024-01-25T14:43:57+00:00

Adult people can do what they like with each other. People who deny them this right ( usually Americans) are telling on themselves

BCRE8TVE · 2024-01-25T21:44:29+00:00

people especially seem confused about the cognitive capabilities of young adult women: a 21 year old woman choosing an abortion is seen as empowered in her ability to do so (by left leaning progressive at least), a 21 year old woman falling for a much older guy is a “victim” of manipulation. This makes no sense, but our broader culture states this between the lines.

This makes perfect sense, just assume Schrodinger's feminism (a woman is simultaneously a strong empowered woman able to take on the world, and simultaneously a poor helpless victim of circumstances, depending on what is best for her on a given situation), and assume that whatever behaviour men do that women don't like, is predatory, toxic, harmful, and should always be criticized and berated regarless of what they do.

Everything makes perfect sense under that paragism.

It's a good thing we live in a patriarchy and have male privilege, isn't it.

feral-female · 2024-01-25T22:32:40+00:00

Oh look another incel or redpiller or whatever member of the manosphere who doesn’t know the difference between grooming/manipulation and seduction. Hint: actual seduction doesn’t involve manipulation, coercion, pressure, lies, power imbalance. The issue is that the vast majority of men have 0 clue what seduction actually is, and that’s also why the ones who actually know are so successful and the rest are mostly losers trying to manipulate women in times where most women are smart enough to realize it.

feral-female · 2024-01-25T22:43:21+00:00

I dated older men when I was younger and it is absolutely grooming. The ones who are in this situation right now will always deny - I did when I was. You only realize or admit to it afterwards, but it is absolutely grooming in 99% of cases. That’s the only reason older men seek to date younger women. In my case I realized what was going on: he was grooming me to be his wife and mother of his babies while I didn’t actually want to have children and was too young for it anyway. He tried to brainwash me into it. I realized and turn it around: started cheating on him with a younger guy sometimes in his bed when he was traveling and in his condo - everyone knew it and I wanted everyone to know to teach him a lesson. He wasted years waiting for me to be “ready” to have kids/change my mind on it, which ofc I never would, and then when I was done playing, I left him, told him about all the cheating, which he suspected and still he tried to get back and I friendedzoned him, and it took years until he actually found an older woman who also wanted to have kids. Frankly. He got what he deserved. All these groomers should get a similar lesson - in fact, many do, a lot of women end up cheating on older men with younger ones. I heard many similar stories.

Title	Most of what gets called “manipulation” and “grooming” seems to be just seduction people don’t like
Author	HardTimes4Vampires
Upvotes	131
Comments	454
Date	January 24, 2024 11:33 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/19ef1s3/most_of_what_gets_called_manipulation_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/most-of-what-gets-called-manipulation-and-grooming.1243658 https://theredarchive.com/post/1243658

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