Men Who Consider Sex a "Reward" Seem to Forget Women Should Also Be Enjoying It

mlo9109 · 2022-11-14T15:33:22+00:00

I feel this and hate how normalized it is in most straight relationships. I recently saw this meme of "Daddy's Sticker Chart" where the father had to perform certain household chores to get sexual "rewards" from the mother. It's gross!

The pandemic shined a light on this, even among my more "progressive" friends. Like, maybe parent your kids and do chores around your own damn house without the expectation of a "reward" because you're an adult who lives there?

4thelasttimeIMNOTGAY · 2022-11-14T22:03:15+00:00

Ya. It seems like their a thing(mostly but not exclusively in men) where they see sex as a zero sum game where if the sex happens the man wins and the women loses, and if it dosnt the man losses and the woman wins.

zombie_still_alive · 2022-11-14T17:11:01+00:00

I mean, that’s not rocket science, by a long shot.

She is more likely to reciprocate, if you make an effort. There is no comparing having sex with somebody who is enjoying herself, than somebody that cannot wait it is over. And, I may be crazy, but there is nothing more hot, satisfying, and ego boosting, than bringing your partner to a shaking orgasm which take her a few minutes to recover from.

And I am sorry, but if you have to convince your wife to have sex with you, you may be the problem!

IntegrityDJones · 2022-11-14T15:41:04+00:00

Yes. It’s a red flag when men say that. Whenever men on here say sex is a reward or given to them, or something that should be doled out for them cosplaying friendship or human decency, you know they are an absolute shitty lay.

They never describe sex as something mutually enjoyable. I’d venture to say quite a few have never had mutually enjoyable and passionate sex. They’ll make entire posts about how women don’t enjoy sex, how they need an entire checklist to get a woman off, say they want communication while dismissing what women say, so you know they’ll dismiss what a woman says in bed. They also claim men “try” to give orgasms so she’ll come back or they do it for someone they care about. They don’t realize there are men out there who actually ENJOY getting their partner off. Every FWB I’ve had 100% would tell me they only cared about my pleasure and they loved giving multiple orgasms. And that makes it hotter when you do it in return to them. It wasn’t something they had to do to get more sex

That’s why men talk about women “using” sex to get things. If a woman is fucking your for anything beyond pleasure, desire, and orgasms, it’s because sex with you offers nothing. But I’m pretty sure they know that. It’s why they think women don’t enjoy sex.

NockerJoe · 2022-11-14T17:54:47+00:00

Sure, but you can't have it both ways. You can't frame yourself as being reqctive and needing your partner to do work to get you going and then also claim that its a mutual act. The entire discussion about how reactive sexuality is "supposed" to work frames it as a reward implicitly because one party has to do a bunch of shit for the other to get to that point without any real reciprocity or default enthusiasm.

A relationship where both partners are initiating reasonably often and both are doing various gestures is a mutual relationship. A relationship where the guy pays and escalates unilaterally very much isn't.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-11-16T17:54:44+00:00

Generally, the sex as a reward thing is portrayed as happening to couples once they have been together a while. Post-women's liberation, there isn't that much pressure on women to marry at all costs that young women in the West are marrying men they do not find at all attractive. So sex tends to be more mutually desirable at the beginning of relationships.

But as both the people involved and the relationship itself ages, libido mismatches become more frequent, usually with the woman having less desire. Without the NRE, and with both partners becoming less physically appealing, it can be harder for the woman to maintain a libido. Studies show that while sexual novelty is more important to men in terms of a desire to maximize it, a minimal amount of sexual novelty may be more important to women in terms of maintaining baseline desire.

Men also get too comfortable with their wives and stop seducing her. She gets less attractive, and more importantly, feels less attractive. She no longer feels 'seen' as this sexual, alluring woman. Now she feels that maybe she is a collection of warm holes that feel better than masturbation to him. As she becomes objectively less attractive, the need for him to seduce her and make her feel attractive actually goes up just as a man starts doing it less and less. And we haven't even talked about kids, their impact on her body, the stress of them, etc.

So it is not uncommon to get to a point where the woman could easily live without sex. She may not yet be repulsed by the thought of it with her husband, but she sees it as something she does for him now. It then becomes natural to withhold this favor if he is no longer carrying his weight in the relationship and doing enough for her. I'm not saying that this is all fine and dandy, just that it is more common than one thinks. Those tropes exist for a reason.

Ex_Machina_1 · 2022-11-14T16:25:48+00:00

Most guys here are oblivious to this fact, hence the comments blaming women for it.

These guys are so oblivious to their own anti-women biases that they actually they sound smart when they both complain about women and act as if women are below them. Dudes arent living in the real world.

Weehuw · 2022-11-14T18:33:59+00:00

I agree. We see sex as a reward everywhere around us. Something always felt off with that and I can't believe most people don't feel at least a bit this way.

Personal story: One of my ex girlfriend often told me "I'll let you play with my body" as an attempt to reward me. I never felt happy about this, yes I kind of liked it, but it was also humiliating. It was as almost as if she wasn't attracted or something, but I guess it was just the way she thought sex was. Sex is amazing, but as a reward, it feels really weird.

It also brings some women to be very boring in bed, not because they are bad people, but because they don't know what they want. They "do it for us" and have not inspiration.

I'm not trying to say men have it hard too, they are just directly affected by this problem.

CarHungry · 2022-11-15T06:15:17+00:00

Sex is simply the bare-minimum, it's not a "reward" or a necessity. When your partner isn't willing to do it with you anymore the relationship is over and you move on to the next person who is willing to do the bare minimum. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Salkinov · 2022-11-14T16:24:24+00:00

This should be a red flag for both genders honestly. I know women who act like their man has more benefits out of sex. Some even withhold sex as a manipulative "punishment". I'd never want to have sex with a woman who thinks her body is just some form of leverage.

I can only support this concept in the context of a guy who doesn't care about the women's pleasure.

gymbro718nyc2 · 2022-11-14T16:27:54+00:00

You are kidding, right? Virtually all men on PPD say they are inherently worthless and have zero value and women are inherently worthy and valuable. These men say they are lower than the lowest scum and they want to have sex with women who don't want to have sex with them. Sex is given as a reward in their minds.

Now let me ask you something? Why would any woman want to be with a man who considers himself worthless? Who has no self esteem, no self confidence and no self respect? A man who boldly proclaims he will take any woman who will have him - therefore a man wjth zero standards. Why would a man like this be appealing to any woman?

Rubber-duck7203 · 2022-11-14T16:09:03+00:00

Women consider their pussy to be their most prized possession. Sex is always treated as a reward by women. Something they give and the man take.

Historical-System972 · 2022-11-14T15:43:23+00:00

If they enjoyed it, they wouldn't be charging us for it.

None0fYour8usiness · 2022-11-14T16:19:34+00:00

I mean considering how many women actively use it as such, and considering that only 20-30% of men are actually considered attractive, or attractive enough, is it really suprising that so many men don't believe women actually like it?

MotleyCrew1989 · 2022-11-14T19:14:35+00:00

This is not something seen with the af/bb logic, this happens in regular relationships as a way of behavioral control by rewarding or punishing certain things men do. If they didnt use it as a reward, why would they deprive themselves of it when her man fucks up or does something she doesnt aprove?

Pavi2 · 2022-11-15T12:37:07+00:00

If women didn't use it as a bartering tool and as a reward they wouldn't see it that way. Look inward and don't be toxic.

ReallyUneducated · 2022-11-15T14:42:44+00:00

something can still be seen as a reward and still understanding your SO enjoys it.

ie your parents taking you on vacation was seen as reward; but it doesn’t mean you don’t comprehend they have fun too

No-Calligrapher-3630 · 2022-11-15T18:27:14+00:00

Who would enjoy sex that isn't mutually enjoyable?

LowCreddit · 2022-11-14T19:47:01+00:00

It's never men who see sex as a reward. It's women who stopped being attracted to their boyfriends and husbands. Sex becomes completely transactional in their minds. Blaming men for it makes zero sense.

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-11-14T16:07:56+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ViolentTakeByForce · 2022-11-14T19:58:55+00:00

Unfortunately it’s because women use withholding sex as punishment. And let’s not lie to ourselves and say they don’t. So men who aren’t critically thinking, correlate having sex to being “rewarded”. The opposite of a punishment.

Plugandharam · 2022-11-14T15:18:59+00:00

The idea that women "reward" high-tier men with "better sex" if the man is hot/rich/famous seems to run on the assumption that a woman's pleasure is irrelevant.

Women's copulatory orgasm is in fact predicted by such qualities

Hekinsieden · 2022-11-14T15:58:06+00:00

I may be a volcel with 0 relationship experience but I like to imagine this stuff being between 2 adults who have nuanced and honest conversations about their desires but I guess that's the most unrealistic expectation of all?

but also haven't you heard the line "I'mma eat your shitter like an apple fritter"? Was a man saying it to a lady so some do care about her pleasure.

EDIT: All the relationships I see IRL seem like neighboring countries with a thin peace treaty keeping them from all out war.

johnnyferrera · 2022-11-14T17:07:42+00:00

Women are the ones who treat it as such. Men just adapt to it.

DisasterPeace7 · 2022-11-14T17:02:11+00:00

Then a lot of women need to stop using it as a reward lol

What I will say to the men is if you're in one of those relationships where sex is leveraged against you as some kind of reward or treat, find another relationship or cheat I don't know, a woman doesn't really respect you unless you have options but that's another discussion altogether

My issue is... no one is actually thinking about how women behave when they're actually pursuing their own pleasure, where they actually get to have sex they can also enjoy, when they want it.

Yeah they are, the woman is, y'all gate keep the shit, of course you should be looking out for yourself, the same way that the man should be looking out for himself and then when you cum together it's some form of a compromise lol

obviousredflag · 2022-11-14T17:34:44+00:00

Men don't see sex as a reward, women do. It's a reward for commitment. Women on average want commitment prior to sex, men want sex prior to commitment. Women reward men for the appropriate level of commitment shown. It's their leverage to get what they want, and if they got it, they reward the man for it. Women hold the notion that they shouldn't reward men with sex before the men have (at least partially) done what the women want. Women are the scarce resource for sex, so they have more power than men in situations where the partners are equally desirable.

If the man is less desirable, women hold off on sex for longer, because they have more power in this situation and can get more of what they want. If the woman is less desirable, she uses sexual availability as a means to outcompete other women to get commitment from the man (hopefully). This doesn't stop at sexual availability, but also regarding the man's sexual preferences, even if they run counter to what the woman likes. Women compete with other women for men with when and how they have sex with men in the early stages of relationships. Just like men compete over women with more commitment, exclusivity, attention, resources, etc directed toward the woman than other men do, even if that is against their preferences. This is, of course, average data. The individual will behave in any possible way.

Maffioze · 2022-11-14T16:57:37+00:00

I fully agree but I find it ironic that you don't see how its mostly women and feminists that promote this kind of thinking.

If you constantly shame men for their sexuality, highlight sexual violence done by men towards women and dismiss sexual violence done by women towards men and treat sex as a way to manipulate men and generally infantalize women then logically people will get the image that sex is something done by men to women instead of a mutual activity. Also don't forget how upset women get whenever a man doesn't want to have sex with them, since men always want to take what they want and therefore they feel not wanted when he is not in the mood.

Anykindofland · 2022-11-14T19:38:53+00:00

The idea that women "reward" high-tier men with "better sex" if the man is hot/rich/famous seems to run on the assumption that a woman's pleasure is irrelevant. The sex is "for the man's pleasure", and she'll (apparently) do any sort of deranged sex act for him if he's hot enough, meanwhile the narrative paints the average man as getting starfish sex, where he only "gets to" fuck her while she lays there and "rewards" him by letting him pump a load into her.

Thats how women treat sex. There was a thread a while back, asking women why the frequency of sex decreases during a long term relationship. The answers of those women showed, that they expected the men to work for it. Seducing her the whole day, doing housework, taking her out to a nice dinner. They never mentioned anything about being proactive when it comes to sex or even that sex is something they enjoy. They treated it as a reward, as something men have to work for. Honestly, why are men always blamed when they respond accordantly towards women behaviour.

revente · 2022-11-14T16:53:46+00:00

If a woman LIKES anal sex, she will want to have anal sex with whoever she's having sex with.

Yes but this isn’t exclusive with the statement that :

Women have lower inhibitions the more turned on they get

You can do that by getting a better technique or by becoming hotter.

It’s also plausible that some women consciously agree to acts they don’t enjoy, only because they anticipate the reward i.e. -trapping a better man.

Teflon08191 · 2022-11-14T17:35:28+00:00

If a man treats sex as a "reward" then it's because he's been conditioned to do so.

If a woman treats sex as a "reward" then she's probably not too concerned about her own pleasure either. I mean, when's the last time a prostitute got mad that their client couldn't make them cum?

Barely-moral · 2022-11-14T18:28:15+00:00

The idea that women "reward" high-tier men with "better sex" if the man is hot/rich/famous seems to run on the assumption that a woman's pleasure is irrelevant.

Correct. That is because a woman's pleasure is irrelevant to the argument.

The argument.

Women react to some traits men display/ have by having sex with them.

Women react to some traits men display/have by not having sex with them.

Men like sex.

Women having sex with men that display/have some traits are creating an incentive structure that rewards those traits.

That argument remains true no matter what happens inside the mind and internal experience of any woman. The incentive structure would be there whether women do it out of love or out of the mandates of Cthulhu.

The sex is "for the man's pleasure", and she'll (apparently) do any sort of deranged sex act for him if he's hot enough, meanwhile the narrative paints the average man as getting starfish sex, where he only "gets to" fuck her while she lays there and "rewards" him by letting him pump a load into her.

Hyperbole. Exaggeration. Sex is a reward for men, see the argument above.

A woman will give more and better sex to some men that display/have some traits. You can't deny that. Same as the previous argument. Her reasons are irrelevant to the point.

These conversations always seem to be around what the man "gets", and the more he gets to "do to her", the happier he apparently is.

It is a simplification but yes. More or less.

The concept of her having the sex to reward herself seems to be entirely absent.

Because it is irrelevant. Whether she rewards x trait for her own pleasure or because a pink unicorn inside her inner left ear is threatening her life... The incentive structure remains the same.

My issue is... no one is actually thinking about how women behave when they're actually pursuing their own pleasure, where they actually get to have sex they can also enjoy, when they want it.

See above. Irrelevant to the argument.

I'm gonna use anal sex as an example, because that's a big one that feels great if you like it and want it, and feels terrible if you're not into it. So here we go:

If a woman LIKES anal sex, she will want to have anal sex with whoever she's having sex with. Because she actually likes the feeling of anal sex. She won't "hold out" and refuse to let her average boyfriend fuck her ass because he's not "alpha" enough. Men who think this way are essentially admitting they don't care if their partner enjoys herself as long as they get "the reward".

Even if you are correct it does not change the argument.

So maybe I just don't understand why anyone would ever want to have duty sex. It sounds pretty unrewarding.

Seeing duties fulfilled is its own reward. Knowing your partner will fulfill their duties even if they are not precisely excited about them means that you picked well. That someone has the right priorities. Duty comes first.

warramite · 2022-11-14T20:12:55+00:00

How the world IS is different from what you WANT it to be.. Sex is a reward given to successful men, pathetic men (incels) don't get it cause they have failed to add value to society/to the woman in question

soundsshemade · 2022-11-14T21:22:35+00:00

I'm fairly certain this entire post is a strawman. You describe hot guys getting to do whatever they want to girls. And boring guys get less enthusiastic sex.

You conflate from this that either set of men is only thinking of themselves during this cooperative act and that either manner of sex is pointless for women because regardless of whether the guy is attractive, he's somehow managing to only make the act pleasurable for himself and then end it before she gets anything.

(Then there is a paragraph about how if women like anal sex they have it with nice guys, but if they don't like it they don't have it. Which somehow implies that hot men and boring men were only having sex with girls who don't like anal sex? Or were letting the girls know it'd only be for them, the guy's, pleasure so the girls kept that info to themselves?)

Why have you been so stingy with your interpretation of trp. Ok maybe the people you encountered explained themselves poorly. Do you blame math if someone explains it to you wrong?

We believe that women are turned on only by a select few men. They enthusiastically have sex with those men. Some percentage of them provide good sex, some percentage provide poor sex. We cannot extrapolate from this that the men WANTED to perform poorly. Maybe they just DO suck. If they speak on their exploits as if they didn't care that may just be bravado and they did provide a quality experience. We do not know, ANNNNND as demonstrated by your interpretation we know that people will believe these guys when they give you an excuse to think the worst of them. Even if they're just lying on the internet.

Back to the subject, there is NO REASON to believe that women giving themselves to top 20% men aren't receiving exactly the product they desire. Even if the men tried very little to please them, I believe, as do many rp, that the women derive much pleasure from the entire thing.

As well, being displeased with starfish sex is both parties problem. If someone just lies there the other person should catch a clue and leave. And the one lying there is very much at fault for feeling disappointed.

You don't like the way men speak about sex. Ok. But even though it is crude to say women prefer a disproportionately small percentage of men, to have sex with, we are not monsters who ignore other humans pleasure and basic needs. Things can be said in a "nasty" way and still be valid. As well, you don't need to take the nastiness, and throw it back at us as proof that our views are wrong. I hope I have done an adequate job explaining why.

iliilliiili · 2022-11-14T16:49:44+00:00

the female orgasm is not necessary for reproduction, that should tell you a different reality. Also men view sex not only as a carnal rewards, but also as dominance over the woman because it forces emotional investment.

men dont like anal. the only reason men are so obsessed with anal is because its an act of submission and to ensure that she is actually serious. the whole point is that she does not want it herself, and does it for him anyway. If women would no be so easily persuaded when their emotions are involved, no man would ever have the urge to do anal. but they know that women make and break rules based on attraction vs taking adavntage, so its a way to ensure that they are not being played. Women are responsible for the expectation. dont let another dude do anal because you like him more, because then I have to demand the same thing to not be disrespected.

tired_hillbilly · 2022-11-14T16:56:39+00:00

You're misunderstanding what we're talking about when we say it's a reward. We're looking at it from the man's perspective only. Men like sex. If certain traits or actions make women more likely to agree to sex, then men will try to do those actions more often.

We're not saying it's a transaction or duty sex or whatever, just that men will do things that increase their odds for having sex.

Angelio72 · 2022-11-14T17:48:20+00:00

I agree with this also. Sex isn't a reward system. So a feminist women could talk about toxic masculinity and have sex with criminals for example , there is no moral obligation for sex really. For me truth and rational thinking is a moral obligation tho

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squeamish · 2022-11-14T18:25:17+00:00

"Reward" and "her pleasure" are not mutually exclusive. You can have sex that both of you enjoy that consists of individual acts that only one of you does (or that you both do to very different degrees). Enjoying something someone else doesn't isn't an indicator that you don't care about their pleasure, it just means that you care about yours mine, TOO.

And it's perfectly normal to do things you don't enjoy for the benefit of other people. This is obvious for things that aren't sex, but is just as true for sex, as well. Most of the actions that define a relationship consist of of doing things for another person, regardless of the return to yourself. The joy you receive from making that person happy is what you get back.

None of this means anyone is obligated for anything (any more than anyone in a relationship is obligated for anything) or has the right to be abusive, though.

mrmudzi · 2022-11-14T20:59:03+00:00

If a woman LIKES anal sex, she will want to have anal sex with whoever she's having sex with.

Categorically false, and for so many reasons like parts don't fit comfortably or current partner is not enthusiastic about anal

Think_History_5682 · 2022-11-14T22:32:56+00:00

Woman all to often look at it like surrendering something... Which causes all sorts of deep dysfunctional sex anxieties

JollyRoger66689 · 2022-11-14T23:59:01+00:00

Totally agree, one of the reasons I don't tend to care about women complaining about men just wanting them for sex.... like ok I get it rejection sucks in general but I'm not going to feel extra sad for you because you wanted to have sex with them and enjoy yourself before being in a relationship

Green-Quantity1032 · 2022-11-15T00:13:31+00:00

I know some guys think of the whole 'reward with hot sex' thing, I think it happens to some extent, but it's not on purpose.

How I see it, it's not that she won't 'reward' the 'beta' guy with mind-blowing sex per-se.

She just won't feel like it, she won't be horny for doing kinky things with him, therefore no kinkiness.

When you're horny a lot of things start to be hot, for example spitting on each other.

When you're "meh" on the guy, maybe less so.

By the way I don't know if average-looking is the problem here - I think some guys are just really not dominant enough to inspire that kind of sex, I don't know why they wouldn't act it though.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I know of enough guys who don't have sex the way it was meant to be done, but still jerk-off about it. Apparently their girl is "not like that".

I don't buy it, what can I tell you. I think THEY are not like that.

As for me, if I don't feel like what we're doing is one of the kinkiest and mind-blowing sex she had, then I won't be there for very long.

Of course I recognize you can't go all-out on the first time, I let it build.

Actually there was one girl who suddenly became very open after like 2 months, strangely it was exactly a week after we established the relationship is casual and not exclusive, but I really don't think that's what made the difference in her specifically.

EDIT:

I can tell you one thing - if the girl is enough of my taste (future pun intended) and clean - I'll want to go down on her. Otherwise I don't like going down on girls even though I have sex with them and do all kinds of other things.

I don't reward her with going down on her, I'll want it, because she's so hot for me.

EDIT2:

I used to have a fear of experiencing this kind of thing (her having kinkier sex with an ex or something), but I've pretty much established that girls who want to have sex with me, eventually want to get kinky. So it's no longer an issue. But I admit it can mess with your head

EDIT3:

TL;DR Probably if you get her off hard enough, she'll be kinky with you.

Robotemist · 2022-11-15T01:46:15+00:00

Why would you expect me to share my reward? If I give you money to go on a shopping spree as a reward for meeting my standards, how silly would it be for me to expect you to spend half of it on me?

Women want to have your cake and eat it to. Either see sex as a reciprocal act in which you don't use it as a carrot on a stick, or see it as a manipulation tactic that the man uses for his benefit once gets it.

_Remember_me_not_ · 2022-11-15T06:20:00+00:00

That is absolutely true, men or women should work out on having a fulfilling sex life and move on if they do not have the compatibility with a person. Clinging on to the incompatibility and difference in preferences and choices which could not be resolved will ultimately hurt the person and their partner. No one is entitled to sex or relationship and no one should be force to it either.
It is also very degrading to be a man who has been reduced to a beggar for sex in a relationship, which has been normalized especially in a dead bedroom situation. They should learn and accept that sex is something both the partners explore together and if that is not possible, it is better to move on instead of staring lifelessly at the dead fish.

Apprehensive_Cut_146 · 2022-11-15T11:55:53+00:00

That type of men also don’t really see women as a person, either

2022-11-15T20:13:45+00:00

Exactly to the men here it seems unthinkable that women actually like to have sex and it’s not something that just happens to us will we passively lay down. Apart from that I would be grossed out if someone would have sex only to please me without really wanting to have sex together

ICtruthcity · 2022-11-17T06:07:36+00:00

Some girls might want to sleepy with 100 men that consider sex a reward, but best believe she ain't going to tell no bitch friend about it...

As soo much for

Enjoying it

SexPervert69 · 2022-11-17T16:31:40+00:00

I did not forget. My goal will always be get the other person off.

It's women who use sex like a reward.

KingOfTheIncels_ · 2022-11-17T18:11:15+00:00

For the longest time I thought women disliked sex and merely put up with it. To some degree I still feel like women generally dislike men and merely put up with us.

Lazy-Sandwich9033 · 2022-12-03T03:55:59+00:00

I've always thought women use sex a reward tbh, it's how it seems in my experience

Title	Men Who Consider Sex a "Reward" Seem to Forget Women Should Also Be Enjoying It
Author	Gravel_Roads
Upvotes	157
Comments	324
Date	November 14, 2022 3:15 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yv2bv8/men_who_consider_sex_a_reward_seem_to_forget/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-who-consider-sex-a-reward-seem-to-forget-women.1139873 https://theredarchive.com/post/1139873

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