The Value of Sex

WilliamWyattD · 2023-01-09T16:10:27+00:00

Here's the thing, how long a woman made a man wait for sex can be explained by many reasons. Men are laser focusing on one possibility: This woman was more truly lustful to other men, and thus didn't make them wait. She's 'settling' for me where the sex is a price she has to pay, and thus is forestalling as long as possible.'

I won't lie. This is a possibility. There's no way around that. But there are many others. So filtering by this seems silly. Fixating on it, equally silly. You will have to do the harder work of getting to know her and making sure she isn't settling or 'beta buxxing' you by other means. Another thing that is true is that sometimes a guy isn't what she thought of as her type. So sex waits in this case because there is not really enough attraction, but she maybe thinks she sees something. Then over time she sees him in a different light, or comes to realize whatever he is is actually her type and physical attraction blooms. Female sexuality is often a mystery even to females.

gate18 · 2023-01-09T15:45:19+00:00

If you want logic:

For some men this wait for sex can be a few months, and some girls may even become religious later on and say they won't have sex until marriage. I've seen both scenarios.

I would not be with that person. I just worldn't. So your friend (inlike blah blah blah - men) was ok with waiting. We, society, say men love sex, clearly your friend did not mind. And, considering the entire "slut shaming" women go through maybe your friend liked that she considered/treated him this way. It always takes two to tango.

Hell, I even have a best friend whose wife wouldn't have sex with him until she was married. He would tell me, she wouldn't change in the same room as him, wouldn't get down to her underwear in front of him, and he didn't get to see her naked until their wedding night... even though she had a lot of sex prior with different men. My best friend and his wife are still going strong 4 years later.

The fact that your friend stuck around, he must have liked the entire thing.

In a culture where sex is so highly regarded, these stupid games around bound to happen.

As a logical person, you know that this isn't the norm. Some women have this silly view and find men that have the same view (else your friend would have left) others do not.

However, I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

It's not about the value of sex. That formulation doesn't even make sense. It's just a silly game couples play to test each other.

I've heard man say that they don't like easy girls. Logically that doesn't make sense. Logically, you'd wish the girl you want is easy. But no "if she's easy with me, she'll be easy afterwards, and when we have a toddler in the kindergarten, she'll be fucking other men behind the building. Hence she has to lie to me, to make me work for it, so that my lizard brain is satisfied that she will not fuck around.

Equally with women. I want this man for the long term, if he can't handle a few months without sex, what is he going to do for months or years during or after I give birth.

We aren't like other animals, we can communicate, but for some stupid reason, we do not.

Mrs_Drgree · 2023-01-09T15:38:25+00:00

They aren't withholding sex because sex is suddenly a thing of value, they are withholding sex to check if he can see her value beyond the sex.

PMmeareasontolive · 2023-01-09T16:02:37+00:00

As long as she can display some kind of sign that she's actually interested, I'd have no problem waiting (for what I consider a reasonable amount of time; ymmv). But the thing is, tons of women are not interested, not turned on, and not compatible really, so what is going to distinguish her from those?

the_lazy_orange · 2023-01-09T16:10:15+00:00

The only logical reasons for sex are money or children. Even children is a stretch. Most of us base sex lives on emotions, not logic.

HighestTierMaslow · 2023-01-09T18:58:23+00:00

This depends on the man and his preferences/views. I dated alot in my 20s and some men would be put off by a woman doing it early (yes, even ones women like alot) and some are put off by women not doing it early enough. This is one area I strived for compatibility- sex values with my partner (it really makes your relationship easier too)

Really for women youre damned if you do damned if you dont. Men arent often upfront about their preferences and some dont even know what they want either.

I didnt sleep with men early but I didnt want to wait until marriage. Ive rejected both extremes- men who pressured me heavily to have sex within 3 dates and men who sprung on me they wanted to wait until marriage (yes, they exist and no they were not religious nor were they men without any options either) My husband and I both were in the middle of the two extremes. And my husband had options too.

I lean towards being demisexual, so I made literally every guy wait and it weeded out alot of men. My sex drive in relationships is nowhere near low. How people can have sex with someone off of OLD within the first 3 dates blows my mind. The person is literally a stranger and I had a longer relationship with my Brita filter than I knew these men.

lle-ell · 2023-01-09T15:16:22+00:00

I guess I'm not the right person to answer this as I am not and haven't been the hookup/fwb type, and I had sex with my current boyfriend on the first date (after talking to him a lot over the course of two weeks and already really, really liking him). Why did I sleep with him? Because he was exactly my type physically, and I knew him well enough to know that he was a super nice, caring guy.

However. I don't think it's about sex having or not having value. I think it's about mitigating the risk of heartbreak, and how badly it stings in each scenario. If you get rejected by someone you never had an interest in beyond a ONS, you shrug it off. No big deal. If you're falling for someone and they reject you, that shit hurts. I've experienced this twice in my life, and even though I didn't have sex with either of them I remember how badly it stung. One of them had me crying for a week. Then add sex to the mix. Women often feel closer emotionally to someone after having (good) sex with them, fall in love / fall more deeply in love etc. If you know that you're the type who gets attached after sex, and if you're already are afraid of being rejected and having your heart broken (perhaps because you feel like you like them more than they like you), you don't want to add sex to that mix because that would make the heartbreak a lot worse.

MoreSanitizerPls · 2023-01-09T15:17:19+00:00

As a woman who has never participated in causal sex, I get why women would make the man they want to marry wait. It makes logical sense to me given what men have told women throughout history.

Men have TOLD women that they don’t take “easy” women seriously. Men have TOLD women that they don’t value sex they didn’t have to work for. Women think, “Men of value don’t value easy women so I won’t be an easy woman for him”. And that makes perfect sense. Can you blame women for having internalized what men have told us since time immemorial?

It’s like men are purposely forgoing the historical context surrounding this phenomenon.

relish5k · 2023-01-09T18:27:06+00:00

Women do not owe men sex according to logical timetables. They are the final decision makers and can decide how they want, and men can never appeal (though they can certainly complain but not one woman will ever care)

Now on to the "logic" there are two flavors of casual sex:

Scenario A is the "yolo" - banging because she wants to , but truly no interest in anything more. Well exemplified by a woman who is on vacation, or studying abroad. Genuinely looking for a one night or otherwise very short term engagement, for the hell of it. There is no point in making the guy wait, because that would defeat the purpose of the encounter.
Scenario B is "down-payment on a relationship" - she likes the guy, and is hoping (even if it is secretly, and to herself) that the encounter will somehow grow into something more. It doesn't necessarily need to be a serious relationship, but something where the man shows considerate and consistent interest in her, even if they are non-monogamous.

Scenario B is often misguided, and can lead to a lot of heartache for women. So after a few failed experiences, she learns to not jump into bed with a man she will want something more from. The advantage to waiting with a guy she likes and sees some kind of future with (Scenario B) is that:

if the guy likes her back, he will stick around (assuming it's not like, a crazy wait window. 3 dates / 3 months depending on social/cultural context is pretty standard)
if the guy does not really like her, he will lose interest and leave, sparing her the heartache.

So women have a strong interest in "making a man wait" in scenario B. But they still have no interest in making a man wait in a Scenario A, because the whole point is about a fun, a casual encounter with no desire for anything more.

Most women would love to jump into bed immediately with every guy they really liked - but if they did that they would almost certainly be emotionally devastated, because only ~10-40% of that pool would reciprocate (depending on the attractiveness of the woman). So women learn and adapt. And if men don't like it or do not think it is fair then, again, no woman will ever, ever care.

northernlights190 · 2023-01-09T15:23:54+00:00

Another factor is the one of self-protection. If you’re having casual sex with someone you think you aren’t at risk of developing feelings for, there’s less chance of getting hurt if and when it ends.

But if you sleep with someone you are developing feelings for and they bail, that often causes a lot of pain. So when you are starting to see someone who you really like, it can be self-protective to take a minute before getting sexually involved in order to gather more evidence that both of you are on the same page in terms of what you want.

richard_golbes · 2023-01-09T16:44:02+00:00

Hell, I even have a best friend whose wife wouldn't have sex with him until she was married. He would tell me, she wouldn't change in the same room as him, wouldn't get down to her underwear in front of him, and he didn't get to see her naked until their wedding night... even though she had a lot of sex prior with different men.

This is ridiculous. I don't believe this actually happens.

guywithaccount · 2023-01-09T19:58:47+00:00

I wonder how women would feel if guys had a switch they could use to turn off their libido. And then when women wanted men to respond sexually, they just didn't, because it wasn't time yet or whatever.

I think they'd be pretty frustrated and they would start inventing all sorts of scenarios in their head. Does he only like her as a friend? Does he find her ugly? Is he fucking someone else on the side? Is there something wrong with him?

I mean, there's ample evidence that women already think these things if a man doesn't move fast enough or pick up signals, even to the point that they'll reject investing in a developing relationship.

If a woman's willing to have casual sex at all, then she's not unduly concerned about pregnancy, disease, or following any kind of abstinence-based moral code. Making a man wait for months or even until marriage just to make the sex "special" seems kind of extreme, and doing it to assess his true feelings seems gamey and untrusting, which is not really a great foundation for a LTR.

If she's doing it so she won't be hurt if he rejects her later, then she's approaching the relationship from a place of fear and self-protection, which is understandable but again, not a great foundation for an LTR.

In the end, women can make their own choices, but men can too. I'm sure there are women out there who have made men wait (in recent times, not historically) and they feel justified because they ended up with a great relationship and feel their strategy was an important part of the vetting process. I'm sure there are others who screwed themselves when he moved on for whatever reason - maybe he wanted a more liberated partner instead of a tradwife, or maybe he felt like there wasn't a good connection and had other options in love.

nemma88 · 2023-01-09T15:41:39+00:00

Anyway... I don't get the logic. I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

I have no first hand experience, but the logic is pretty straight forward. Hookups, the guys and the sex are not of the same value to those women.

From my perspective, a lot of casual sex is the guy being in the right place at the right time, the woman wants sex an there's a suitable male in the vicinity.

redbraisedmeat · 2023-01-09T16:18:45+00:00

Sorry, but there's way too many red flags with women like this. They're just testing how much they can control you. Just dump them and never look back.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2023-01-09T17:14:02+00:00

A woman who is hot for you isn't ever gonna make you wait THAT long.

GridReXX · 2023-01-09T15:52:17+00:00

“The thing” is valuable to the person who wants it more.

Pilling_it · 2023-01-09T16:24:15+00:00

Anyway... I don't get the logic. Everyone has a right to change, grow, refuse sex, etc. etc. I get that. However, I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

Don't want to be perceived as easy, because she'll be less respected. Even if, indeed, it doesn't "make sense". Just take it for what it is tbh.

TermAggravating8043 · 2023-01-09T17:50:02+00:00

It’s too see if he just wants her for sex and doesn’t value her as a partner first

modidlee · 2023-01-09T21:27:54+00:00

I guess I'm not the right person to answer this as I am not and haven't been the hookup/fwb type, and I had sex with my current boyfriend on the first date (after talking to him a lot over the course of two weeks and already really, really liking him). Why did I sleep with him? Because he was exactly my type physically, and I knew him well enough to know that he was a super nice, caring guy.

And that’s usually how it happens. When I see women say they made a guy wait months I can’t help but think “Come on, just say you’re not that attracted to him, or there’s something about him that may not be a dealbreaker but it’s making you doubt him.”

James_Cruse · 2023-01-10T00:00:02+00:00

The problem with this “Logic” that you’re trying to work out is that women are LYING.

When a woman says she had quick sex with a casual partner because “she needed to get off” = “I really liked the guy, but I found out later he was out of my league when we had sex once/several times and he wouldn’t commit.

“I had sex with him quickly because he has so many female options ans I need to compete with those other women to get him. We had sex and he didn’t want to commit so I have to tell people it was MY CHOICE to only have casual sex, because I don’t want to admit I was rejected for a relationship - because SAYING I was rejected makes the actual rejection even worse because other potential relationship interested guys will know and see me as less, which could ruin my chances with them.”

Don’t believe any woman that says that. Unless she’s extremely religious AND always had been for her entire life, she’s not that interested if she hasn’t slept with you within 3-4 dates.

MasterTeacher123 · 2023-01-09T15:01:29+00:00

Making a guy wait to see if he’s “real” was always flawed for two specific reasons

1.)He can be screwing other girls while “waiting” for you.

2.)He can be a complete loser with no options, and waiting for you is better than what he was doing before lol

obviousredflag · 2023-01-09T17:10:37+00:00

From a woman's perspective, they will make a guy they really like, a guy they can see as husband material wait for sex, because they don't want that guy to view them as "easy" and they want to the guy to want to get to know them outside of sex.

That is just a part of women and men. Not all men see "easy" women as not marriage material, and not all women make men wait for sex. You have a spectrum for this behavior, like you have spectrum for most traits. I, for example, have never had to wait for sex with my girlfriends-to-be for more than 2 dates. I would also not think of them any different for having sex early. None of my guy or girl friends lets anyone wait for sex or thinks of people who have sex early as not good enough for relationships.

If you think of women with high n count badly and wouldn't marry a woman who has sex with you early on, then you will likely face women who will make you wait for sex. People with same values attract each other.

However, I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

Well you explained it yourself: the value system that people hold makes them don't care if casual-sex-partners would refuse them as marriage material, because they refuse them themselves or are not interested. However, when it comes to marriage material, they want to be seen of people with same values as valuable and adhering to their values.

People make their own problems. And probably like half of the population at least doesn't see early sex as having any effect on the marriage-material side of things.

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2023-01-09T15:21:55+00:00

Real question for people with these ‘concerns’

Are y’all dating women or vaginas?

Is the point of relationships love and happiness or validation and a cum hole?

The craziest thing about all this because it’s not about love it’s about validation it’s low self esteem, anyway the crazy thing about this is a lot of relationship oriented men have the same mindset of I don’t want to rush into things I want to get to know eachother.

That’s how I know this argument isn’t from actual relationship oriented guys. It’s from bitter dudes who want to be man whores but can’t so they act as if they’re the ‘good guys’ when really the only thing stopping them from being pump and dump fuck boys is they can’t get anyone to sleep with them.

throwawaypasaspike · 2023-01-09T16:32:11+00:00

I'll explain why I have done this.

It's down to respect for yourself and that other person.

When I meet a person I really like, I don't want to ruin the potential for a relationship or something more meaningful by rushing into sex.

If I don't care about a person, I don't care what they or I think of each other and I can just (in theory) have sex with them.

I don't want "high value men" to think I'm easy, so I make them wait. And I don't care about the opinions of "lower value men". Works the other way around too, I want to show respect to good men by getting to know them first so they know I'm interested in more than just their bodies. With people I don't care about, I don't care to get to know them.

Safinated · 2023-01-09T19:10:15+00:00

Take away the immediate option of sex, do you still want to be around me? No? Ok, bye

RocinanteCoffee · 2023-01-09T21:41:44+00:00

From a woman's perspective, having casual partners and then making a guy they really like wait for sex isn't an issue.

Every dynamic is different. People may feel comfortable with someone quickly and then another person is the "strong, silent type" and takes a lot longer to get to know and feel comfortable with them.

Neither relationship is 'superior' to the other, just levels of comfort are going to be a unique dynamic every time.

Some people may realize after a lot of casual sex that they catch feelings too quickly and after many heartbreaks decide that in the future they are going to put it off until they are in a sexually exclusive relationship or whatever.

Still others may only require someone demonstrating they respect consent and are willing to use protection.

"Withholding sex" is just consent plain and simple. And there is no onus on the woman to change her mind (or not change her mind). It's up to the individual.

What people try to paint as negative things "withholding sex"/"gatekeeping sex" is just consent, plain and simple.

Just because someone has sex with 100 people but will not say yes to you doesn't mean you have the right to expect different/violate that consent.

From their logical perspective (based on conversations with women), those men they were having casual sex with didn't really matter.

You seem to conflate 'casual' with 'inconsiderate'. You can have conscientious, connected, warm and affectionate sex with a casual partner. And sometimes you can sadly experience surface level, inconsiderate sex even with a long-term partner. Casual doesn't equal careless or inconsiderate.

However, I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

Because sex is an activity like anything else. When some hikers hike up a mountain together they might just see it as a fun day, an exercise.

For some others, or with some of their friends or depending on the day, climbing a mountain can be seen as a sacred, even spiritual experience. It really depends on the individual, the dynamic of the two, and what their intentions and reactions are.

A third of marriages begin with a random hookup. An even larger percentage of long-term relationships do. So it's not an either or scenario. Casual sex can be precious, sacred, special. Sex within a relationship can be superficial or wild, or unserious, or unspecial. And vice versa. There's a large spectrum.

Me personally, I see sex as a fun experience to share with another. Like white water rafting, or playing video games. I treat it with a bit more care than this because of the potential consequences (I don't want to hurt anyone and since I don't seek out relationships, I only initiate sex with someone who is certain they want it to be casual). I look after their feelings. I also want to look out for our sexual health and pregnancy prevention... so three forms of birth control and multiple types of STI protection are intrinsic to the experience for me.

The sexual timeline can depend on many things, from the logistics of when a birth control prescription renews, to how long it takes to buy a sold out HIV take-at-home 15 minute saliva test to how sure I am that my partner is okay with a casual arrangement to how comfortable I am with them and how much they respect my consent. (If they don't respect my consent in the little less important things it's going to take longer for me to see if they can correct that behavior when I address it before I'm going to be sure they won't violate consent in the bedroom).

Some people can't have casual sex without catching feelings. Some can. But shaming someone, whatever reason they have, for not having sex with you on the first night, in the first week, or in the first month is unconscionable. It doesn't matter what he did with another girl; that was a different dynamic, the other girl might have had her pills regularly taken, might have agreed more easily to a condom, might have had more of a spark initially, whatever it is.

Similarly, if you personally do not like or respect a person who is delaying sex it is your right to part ways and both seek out more compatible sex partners. It's not your right to try to shame someone into consenting or complain that they have not consented, regardless of the reason.

coffeeaddict2300 · 2023-01-10T03:43:46+00:00

Women are the gatekeepers of sex and it’s our most important power in a relationship. As a woman, I see how hurtful it could be to a guy if we gave up easy to someone else in the past but made him wait. To a lot of guys this can feel like we’re not seeing him as hookup material and may not be as attracted to him.

As a woman, the most logical thing to do is gatekeep sex for every man in the same way. Don’t give it up for chad for one night of fun. Wait for the most amazing guy who’s actually worthy of your time. This is why the traditional waiting until marriage works so well for a woman to keep her power in a relationship. Having casual sex in the past and then suddenly switching to gatekeeping sex for a guy you wanna be with is not a good plan.

mugdul · 2023-01-10T17:25:02+00:00

Wow, you're really getting deep there, buddy. It's not like people have their own boundaries and values around sex or anything. And it's not like women are allowed to change their minds and have different desires at different points in their lives. But please, keep mansplaining the complexities of human emotions and relationships. It's always enlightening to hear the thoughts of someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

Ohmaygahh · 2023-01-10T19:50:51+00:00

There must be some value to it if women happily engage in casual sex with partners they don't care about...

Relative_Bee8356 · 2023-01-10T21:45:40+00:00

The chick who has a bunch of casual sex and then makes the boyfriend wait is a bit of a boogie man -- most people either don't engage in casual sex at all OR they have sex with the boyfriends early on too. Even with the people who treat them differently it's usually the difference of a couple dates rather than months of waiting.

And it's not about "the value of sex." It's either (A) she thinks (sometimes correctly!) that the boyfriend guy will judge her/lose interest if she sleeps with him too soon, or (B) she's already crushing super hard and will suffer emotional pain if he ghosts after. So it's either a seduction strategy or a self-protection strategy.

In female pickup (not FDS, actual female pickup) the best time is right after the first major show of effort on his part regardless of when that actually happens. And there's absolutely no reason to apply strategy if you literally dgaf whether he calls you back after.

despisedlove2 · 2023-01-09T17:51:34+00:00

You are misreading it.

By playing hard to get, the woman is trying to send an implicit message to the man she likes that she isn't promiscuous, has a low n count, and is worth investing into.

It is just a giant head fake.

They obviously don't do it with men they commonly play around with because they aren't trying to snare them.

anjovis150 · 2023-01-09T16:55:56+00:00

And every man has the right to reject a woman who's not interested in having sex with them. I pity any man who's basically a human wallet to these "formerly" wild girls.

rpujoe · 2023-01-09T20:38:15+00:00

Women's mating strategy doesn't have to make sense, you just have to recognize what is going on. To wit, women who have primal sexual LUST for a man will break all the rules to bang him, but guys they just LIKE and want a relationship for will string them along and demand commitment before they have sex with him. This is where "women make rules for betas and break rules for alphas" comes from.

The good news is thanks to the internet guys have been able to compare notes and learn and are FINALLY starting to develop standards of their own. My perspective:

A woman's sexual past sets the bar for future expectations

If you know she had one night stands or threesomes or whatever, then you should expect the same. It's as simple as that. If she's not, then she's not truly attracted to you at a primal lustful level and she's only dating you because "you'll do". These are the women who will divorce you 7ish years later because they're bored.

2023-01-09T17:46:48+00:00

The thing is, the men that would wait a long time for you to have sex with them would still love you even if you fucked them on the first date. The ones that will have sex with women on the first date but hypocritically judge them and reject them for being “easy” aren’t ones you want to be with anyway.

The solution is to just have sex when you’re comfortable and want to have sex. The HV and compatible men won’t care, and you’ll weed out the ones who aren’t relationship material anyway, without intentionally depriving yourself of sex with sexually attractive partners.

Bruce_Hale · 2023-01-09T20:20:21+00:00

I don't think women withhold sex from guys they really like.

Sofapilotuniverse · 2023-01-09T23:18:34+00:00

The sex on a ONS happens immediate she is emotional attached to his look or genetics. The husband material has money nice guy features all logic things. There are far less emotions involved hence the schedule. Its a necessary evil.

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sparklyyblueberryy · 2023-01-09T21:06:48+00:00

Not only a gendered thing

Scarce12 · 2023-01-09T21:56:14+00:00

Well the thing is, women have Madonna-Whore complexes too, and these women you talked to have problems with integrating desire and love, so that's why they do it.

Watch these women, and you'll see they give their partners dead bedrooms.

SoldierExcelsior · 2023-01-09T23:20:29+00:00

I guess the guys willing to wait and meet her terms is the guy that's serious if he's not serious about her and doesn't want her for more than sex he won't wait.

I see the logic behind it but the equity isn't fair ..one guy had to commit to get sex while others can have it without commitment...I think only a beta man would go for that a man with no other options.

The problem with this is there's no gurantee she will have sex with you after marriage and even if she does you might not enjoy it or she's very prudish doesn't allow you to do all things you want etc.

I think the only way I would go for that is if she said I could have her any way I like anytime her body is all mine after marriage nothings off limits she will dress up like Harley Quinn or a squirrel if I want it.

But women are the ultimate reneggers and I don't think you can believe anything they promise.knowing what I know I would only marry a woman if she's very wealthy,not for any other reason not for children not for sex

DeepHouseDJ410 · 2023-01-10T00:03:47+00:00

I’m not proud of it, but if the ONSs and FWBs type relationships have taught me anything it’s that women get just as horny as us guys do. When women are sexually attracted to guys they’ll want to have sex as fast as possible and have repeat experiences if the guy’s a good lay, regardless of whether an actual relationship follows or not. The men that they make “wait” are the guys that they’re not particularly sexually attracted to but who qualify for long term survival partners, ie. good providers and good dads.

Historical_Summer630 · 2023-01-10T00:06:38+00:00

Women can also follow a Madonna whore thought process in regards to the men they interact with.

medlabunicorn · 2023-01-10T00:36:33+00:00

There’s a difference between sex to scratch a horniness itch and sex to bond. The former is basically masturbation; personally I preferred to use sex toys, but some women and most men are really good at it (based on what I see in popular culture, anyway), so that shouldn’t be hard to understand.

Sex for bonding is something different. If you actually like the guy, then it’s really easy to end up catching feelings when you have sex. It has less to do with the dude thinking you’re a slut and more to do with protecting your own heart. If you know you can’t turn off the feelings, it’s better to wait to make sure the guy is worth investing in.

_here_ok · 2023-01-10T00:52:42+00:00

I don't think it's about the sex itself but more on being valued. If A wants B to value them more for something they provide then A will hold off on providing it. The less they provide the more valuable it seems to B individually. However all that goes down the drain if B finds out about the past which is why A might try to hide it.

It's more on a byproduct of women being oversexualized and thinking sex is something they have to provide in a substantial way to properly be valued. If they give sex freely then it won't be substantial but if they never give sex then they won't be valued.

There are other ways to view it such as that the sex is special because the person you are with is special.

they assume a guy will just leave if sex is given because all the guys they had casual sex with left or that husband material ≠ sexy.

There are many ways to view it and I can go on and on about the possible reasons because it's an individual to individual basis.

Atomic_Thr0away · 2023-01-10T01:11:36+00:00

The men women really like never have to wait for sex. Unless she's like a 13-15 year old virgin about to enter HS and her so called friends (competition) are like "make him wait a year".... if' she's not a virgin it drops to 3 months.

WTF? So much for logic

The guy she makes wait is the guy she's training. She knows she's gotta give him some eventually. She's using that this as dog treats.

The guy that gets her motor running... she'll walk 500 miles to his house, uphill both ways, in winter, lie to her parents, go on the pill, and fuck his brains out everyday in the back of a car.

Is this your first day or something? Did you have a stroke?

Dstar538888 · 2023-01-10T01:33:43+00:00

As a woman, casual sex does not interest me in any way, shape, or form, regardless of how hot the guy is... he's still a stranger until I get to know him better so it's not that I'm waiting to have sex to impress him or keep him around, I'm doing it for myself, so that I can get clarity on whether he's just trying to use me for sex or not and determine if we are on the same page... If the guy decided he doesn't want to wait, that's perfectly fine with me, and he's more than welcome to leave and go find someone else...also it's a safety and security thing.... I need to be able to trust the guy I'm being intimate with, and trust takes a while to build, so it's not gonna happen after only 1 to 3 dates....also there was just a girl that got kidnapped and assaulted because she went to this guy's house on the first date and he turned out to be a complete psycho and nearly killed her...he was a fairly good looking guy too....so just because we're attracted to a guy doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to go home with him....I see so many men on here that think women just hop in bed with hot men after 5 seconds of talking even tho the VAST majority of women are not looking for hook ups regardless of his appearance....you can be attracted to someone without fucking them after 2 seconds of knowing them.... self-control is everybody's friend.....

Gilmoregirlin · 2023-01-10T03:49:16+00:00

Easy the same way that most men have certain ladies they just would sleep with but not marry or date and others they would. You have different standards for different needs/wants. Sex and relationships are two different things. You can have sex in a relationship but you don’t need a relationship to have sex.

PrettyBeautiful7030 · 2023-01-10T03:57:32+00:00

They were okay with having sex with those men, because they didn't care what those men thought, because to them, the casual sex men were lesser men and were only good for getting off.

I mean, what's hard to understand? Men differentiate between casual material vs marriage material same concept.

From a woman's perspective, they will make a guy they really like, a guy they can see as husband material wait for sex, because they don't want that guy to view them as "easy" and they want to the guy to want to get to know them outside of sex.

Again same concept, casual versus marriage material.

Anyway... I don't get the logic. Everyone has a right to change, grow, refuse sex, etc. etc. I get that. However, I don't how you can make sex seem value-less when you're having casual sex... but when you meet the guy of your dreams, now your sex is deemed valuable and must be protected by waiting.

I ll tell you why, with a casual relationship, we are just performing, there is no shyness, no consideration to the man's view of us..it's purely sexual. With a boyfriend we're nervous, in love, afraid of making mistakes...

fakingandnotmakingit · 2023-01-10T04:26:38+00:00

Personally think it's a chicken and egg thing right?

Women get told by men that men don't like easy girls.

Women get told that men like the chase (and I got told this a lot because I fucking hated being chased and never played games, and so lost the attention of a few men. Whatever)

Women are also very wary of men only wanting them for sex instead of actually liking them. The stereotype, even on ppd is Men will fuck women they don't like. Men will fuck women and then discard after. Men will fuck zone you.

If a man fuck zones you and you didn't care about him. Whatever. If a man fuck zones you and you actually liked him... Then take steps to minimoze getting fuck zoned.

Ergo

Men don't like easy women. So women will play hard to get if they actually like the guy so she is not perceived as easy regardless of whether she actually is

Men like the chase so women will make him work for it, so that she keeps his attention regardless of whether this is true or not

Women like to be in relationships with men who will like them for who they are and who won't bail on them if they're sick, stressed, or otherwise in a rut (not a full on unsolvable dead bedroom, but life happens etc) so if they like you they want to see if you're able to like them with more than just sex

If a man fuck zones you and you didn't care about him. Whatever. If a man fuck zones you and you actually liked him... Then take steps to minimize getting fuck zoned. And part of those steps to minimoze is to make him wait. Because if he didn't wait, odds are he fuck zoned you.

Take it or leave it. That's up to you.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-01-10T04:46:55+00:00

You say you don’t get the logic, but you pretty much just explained it. The logic is that sometimes men judge or lose interest in women who have sex right away, so best to delay sex with a guy who you are really interested in. Whether you agree or disagree with the accuracy of that idea, that is the logic. Women can also change what they want or their belief systems, just like men.

At the end of the day, everyone has to decide for themselves when they feel comfortable having sex with this particular person, at this particular point in life, or how long they are willing to wait to have sex with this person. There is no right or wrong here, only compatibility or incompatibility. You probably won’t know their sexual history, so you must simply decide for yourself what you want and how long you’re willing to wait. If you want a quick hookup, you’re just not compatible with a woman who wants to wait several months, for example. But she isn’t somehow “wrong” for that, even if she hasn’t always waited in the past. That’s not how life works.

Imagine if someone was an alcoholic and got sober, then their friend got mad because they “used to go drink with their other friends but won’t with me now.” I’m not comparing sex to alcoholism, but sometimes casual sex can be unhealthy in a similar way for some people. Saying “well you used to do that so now you always have to” is ridiculous.

FlyV89 · 2023-01-10T05:09:26+00:00

I keep saying this, relationships, commitment, monogamy, marriage and romance as a whole is pretty much done, it's just that we as humans (and women specially) don't want to feel like that "good ol' thing" we had wasn't real to start with, we don't want to let it go.

The problem is there is only one truth, reality, and reality says there is no forever after happy ending.

The reasson is simple.

Women know when a man is intrested. Be it for just sex or something more, women just know, because men are pursuers, and under this dinamic is based the core notion of romanticism as a phylosophy.

Men have to prove women they are not only intrested in sex, basically.

And this is how it was since the ancient times up until like what? The 60's? The 70's? I think my mom even said men were more romantic when she was young and she dated my dad in the 80's.

Funny shit, she told me this last Christmas during dinner. Her and dad divorced 6 years ago and she's still on her early 50's. She went to the dating market two years ago and came back absolutely stunned hahahaha I swear she told me she was hoping to find a romantic, chivalrous man to court her like dad did... The girl I'm kinda seing was sit next to me and was laughing her ass off, she was like "yeah Ma'am... No, that's not how it goes nowadays" hahahaha.

Basically, when giving up sex freely and without commitment, women have given up too their bargaining chip to prove men they are intrested and emotionally invested in them.

It's intresting that during our entire history, women gave sex to men in exchange for what they consider the absolute proof of eternal love... A damn ring haha.

Sounds funny, but at it's core, this is how romanticism, as a cosmovision, worked. This was the way old societies figured out to make it fair for both men and women and make sure everyone was getting a proof of the "love" of the other part towards them.

And it worked, I think for over 2000-3000 years, depending on which society we are talking about.

Then we can discuss all day about "what if"s and if that was convenient for women or not, arranged marriages, marriages for convenience or political alliances, "but Hunter gatherer tribes" (marriage detractors love talking about hunter gatherer tribes like if they actually were a thing past the neolitical) and a loooong list of things, but my point is...

It worked. For quite a lot.

And this brings us to the sexual revolution, when women said "well, marriage is not the end all be all, and we can actually have sex with whomever we want", and it worked for a while at least, until some dudes said "hey... Wait a minute...

If that dude is getting it for free, without having to put on that bullshit romantic show... Does it make sense for me to behave like an idiot just to get off?".

And the answer is, simply, no. It doesn't make much sense isn't it?

"Being in love" it's a chemical feeling that last around a year max, this has been scientifically proven by now. The honeymoon phase wears off. It doesn't make sense to stress that much about love, speaking from rationale.

So what's the way men meassure a woman's intrest in the modern dating market?

The eagerness and easyness in which she jumps into bed with him.

And this is something that kinda gives romance and relationships the final stabb, because it only accelerates the principle of the hook up culture.

When all this started, it was only a few women and men engaging in casual sex. Now it's pretty much all women, at some point, in some way. And the fact that it's only a minority of men getting it while the majority gets only some to none it makes it even worst.

Because women have to put out to get a relationship now. We are not talking about marriage anymore, that's not even in the equation right now and it'll be a thing of the past in the next decade. We are talking about more or less commited relationships. Women have to put out to get a relationship.

Sometimes even to have A SHOT at a relationship. Today nothing is 100% sure.

But even if they get a relationship...

How much a man can resist the temptation of novelty when he knows out there there are guys slashing left and right and lots of hot, different women giving it up for free?

Not gonna lie here, this is why I broke my engagement. I got cold feet. 100% honest here, I just could think "one woman for the rest of my life? What I was thinking!!!"

And this is the core problem with your post.

You ask why women do rules for "LTR dude" that they break for a quick lay with another dude.

Aside for the reassons we all know here and we discuss here all the time, in my experience as a historian, sociologist and fanatic of psychology literature, I understand this is another form for women to cope with the new social trends in the dating market.

Making a man wait is just a form in which women try to recalibrate on an individual level to recover the power they have freely given away during the last decades.

Basically, it's women reverting back to the old behaviour, the old traditional roles, the old "dating morals and rules", when they want the old marriage thing.

It's so damn self evident that it's actually stupid in some sort of way.

Women know that in order to be in the beneficiary end of the old romantic acts they have to embody the old traditional femenine, chaste image of the woman in the male subcoscious mind.

The problem?

The internet.

We, as a society, are not going back. There is no way of reverting the changes we have done now.

If women had made this adjustments of personality on an individual level, low key hiding from the gaze of the masses of men, men wouldn't be wondering "hey, why did she jumped in bed with this guy but not me?". Men would be walking down the aisle blindfolded.

But now, we are discussing the "WHY" right here. This mechanism is pretty much in the open. We all know it now, and there is no bearing around the bush.

This is, basically, the leitmotive behind the Manosphere, The Red Pill, The Black Pill, MGTOW, Andre Teit (or whatever) PUAs gurúes, Fit Fruit, that black dude in suit, all those "relationship teachers" and content creators over the internet...

It's everywhere. And all the men and women with an ounce of abstraction capacity who are able to understand how sociocultural movements insert themselves in the grand scheme of things can read between lines. We all can see the core tenant that it's preached out there.

"There is no love out there for you. Quit the idea"

This is what the masses of men are learning, reading, hearing out there. How long before we see a huge change, IDK, but one thing I'm sure thou...

We are seing the last days of romanticism as a form of life. Romanticism and marriage are done, and commited relationships have their days counted.

Edit: hey, I just realized I wrote such an amazing piece of shit that I wanted to say thanks to you, all. I learn so much with you everyday and on top of that improve my english! So basically that. Now gimme a gold and beat the shit out of your romantic-self. Fuck and let fuck, travel, rock and get drunk. That's what life is for.

Girls, don't trust guys you like, we are all motherfuckers these days, yes because we can, and guys, don't get jealous of girls who won't fuck you, they are going to get fucked by another dude who's cucking another girl.

neetykeeno · 2023-01-10T05:56:42+00:00

I wait as long as I think necessary under the circumstances. There's a lot of different things about me, the guy, the circumstances that could have an impact on how long that is. I have never factored "looking easy" into that decision ever other than that I'm not exactly one for doing things like visibly leading someone off to an empty room at a party because it seems a little crass.

I'm not into casual sex and have a low count. I don't care if relationships take a different amount of time to happen. It takes as long as it takes. It isn't about depth of attraction it is about whether this is a wise decision.

NationalistGoy · 2023-01-10T07:01:01+00:00

From a woman's perspective, having casual partners and then making a guy they really like wait for sex isn't an issue. From their logical perspective (based on conversations with women), those men they were having casual sex with didn't really matter. They were okay with having sex with those men, because they didn't care what those men thought, because to them, the casual sex men were lesser men and were only good for getting off.

Women who had casual sex in the past, probably did all kinds of sexual acts on the guy, things you wouldn't believe women would do, and those same things she would refuse to ever do with her husband.

Some guy marries a woman, and he has to beg her for anal sex on his birthday, while she enthusiastically had threesomes in the past. So sad.

From a woman's perspective, they will make a guy they really like, a guy they can see as husband material wait for sex, because they don't want that guy to view them as "easy" and they want to the guy to want to get to know them outside of sex.

Couldn't be me. If a woman is not a virgin, and she is evidently not the conservative type of girl, then there is little to no reasons to make me wait for sex. I can't force her to have sex that's fine. But I won't stick around for long.

It's like a car dealership that doesn't allow you to test drive an used vehicle, because they don't want to add mileage to it. It's ridiculous.

For some men this wait for sex can be a few months, and some girls may even become religious later on and say they won't have sex until marriage. I've seen both scenarios. Hell, I even have a best friend whose wife wouldn't have sex with him until she was married. He would tell me, she wouldn't change in the same room as him, wouldn't get down to her underwear in front of him, and he didn't get to see her naked until their wedding night... even though she had a lot of sex prior with different men.

This hurts to read. Guy was definitely settled for.

Anyway... I don't get the logic.

There is no logic in it.

2023-01-10T07:21:32+00:00

Women are not logical, not in the same cause and effect way at least.

Once you understand women are more neurotic than the standard "logical person" as we conceive it in society, a lot of things make sense.

They just need re-assurance in a very toxic way. And keeping a dude hanging is one of those way they feel they have any power in a relationship.

cmvmania · 2023-01-10T09:31:15+00:00

For some men this wait for sex can be a few months, and some girls may even become religious later on and say they won't have sex until marriage. I've seen both scenarios. Hell, I even have a best friend whose wife wouldn't have sex with him until she was married. He would tell me, she wouldn't change in the same room as him, wouldn't get down to her underwear in front of him, and he didn't get to see her naked until their wedding night... even though she had a lot of sex prior with different men. My best friend and his wife are still going strong 4 years later.

Your best friend is a prime textbook example of beta buxxed

UpbeatInsurance5358 · 2023-01-10T12:49:34+00:00

It seems to be a case of "waiting to ensure he doesn't just want the sex instead of me". Also, the man of a woman's dream doesn't exist. Just like vice versa.

smarmycheesesandwich · 2023-01-10T13:52:56+00:00

If she doesn’t wanna smash on a regular basis, she is the wrong one for me.

bluestjuice · 2023-01-10T14:07:29+00:00

Ah, see, it’s not that the sex is more valuable in scenario B. It’s that potentially the relationship is more valuable than in scenario A. Having sex really soon could compromise or damage the relationship (sometimes, for some people) and while that isn’t a consideration in scenario A, it gets taken into account in scenario B.

2023-01-16T00:48:29+00:00

The value of sex is lower for women than men. Women judge whether a man is able to value her for reasons other than sex. Men who are able to value women beyond superficial reasons are the type of men most women are seeking.

Additional_Speech164 · 2023-01-21T00:58:04+00:00

If I’m only attracted sexually and am eitther not looking for a relationship or he’s just not the guy, sex can still be fun. However, if I’m actually wanting to date him then we should get to know each other first, it’s always worked for me as a woman this way.

General_Doubt7181 · 2023-01-26T16:10:42+00:00

I would have gotten the ick if I had sex with a man I didn’t like when I was younger. Whereas it seems men can have sex regardless of ick factor. Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m usually not 😂

I think If normal women are having sex with men, they most likely are trying to secure a relationship. They know the chads won’t commit off the bat, so they go the causal route, hoping it will lead to a relationship. Obvi it doesn’t.

To men, this might appear as casual, but women are subconsciously manipulative trying to secure a relationship due to being the weaker sex, so even if she says casual, she doesn’t usually mean it.

I see it time and again in Reddit posts or TikTok’s”how do I get my situanship to love me” usually from women.

Maybe what a lot of men don’t get, or they do get it and do it anyway, is that Women really take men’s words to mean something. so when chad is saying “you’re so unique and amazing” she is really thinking score! He’s going to marry me!! It leads to the same story over and over in her life and eventually, one day, she gets it. But not until years later.

Tale as old as time tho. Women didn’t learn this until they had several years of this. Men just know cuz they all talk to each other, or just get excited with new women that they actually believe what they say and don’t have ill intent even if they change their mind after sex.

TikTok now has lots of info for these genZers. These women appear to be learning early on what men say means nothing. And to take things slow, and how men view sex.

So I would say if a woman is making a man wait, she probably really likes him and understands that men process sex differently. And if a woman has “casual sex” she still really likes him and is scheming to get a relationship. There might be some that can separate sex from feelings, but if that was the case for the majority, we would all be rabbits or fuck like men and we clearly don’t.

Unless the guy is like 80 and rich or just plain gross or whatever with money. But she should be scheming him the most 😂😂😂😂 any 90 year olds on here, my DMs are so open for you

ForeverMaleficent993 · 2023-01-09T16:32:14+00:00

I think this comes from a place of fear. Making someone hold out.. However its a good opportunity to get to know someone this way. I have had casual sex, mainly out of loneliness/not being good enough in my own skin.

With my partner we really got to know each other first. We had sexual energy but we kept it sacred and didn't want to do anything until we met. It was long distance. When we did finally meet we went crazy! Couldn't resist sexually so to speak.. it didn't take away from the moment cause we had already bonded.

Title	The Value of Sex
Author	teamgr377
Upvotes	46
Comments	245
Date	January 9, 2023 2:56 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/107gdyv/the_value_of_sex/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-value-of-sex.1146357 https://theredarchive.com/post/1146357

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A woman's sexual past sets the bar for future expectations