I am a feminist. Help me understand the Men's Rights movement.

yelirbear · 2015-05-05T17:03:11+00:00

To me, (and this is my personal takeaway), its about sanity in the conversation about equality. I support womens rights and equity feminism, but by and large the movement of Feminism has lost its collective marbles, and become more about catharsis for upper middle class college educated white women than it is about actual progress for the oppressed. In a world where some women suffer stoning for adultery, and lack the right to drive, let alone hold office, the biggest news story in the feminist world right now is that a protein supplement ran an advertisement featuring someone with an uncommonly low body fat percentage.

moreover, men do face issues in life that are unique to men, from defining masculinity, to shared parenting rights and alimony reform (both of which have been opposed by feminist groups) , to education. Discussion of which are generally not accepted by feminism (even though we've been told that feminism and gender equality are one in the same).

basically, there is only so many "kill all men", "men are scum" and "I bathe in male tears" jokes we can hear thrown around , while also being told that "feminism is good for equality for all" before we come to the conclusion that feminism neither wants us, nor has anything to offer us.

paperairplanerace · 2015-05-05T17:21:20+00:00

(Final edit: OP, I say "fuck" a lot, I promise it's totally normal for me and has nothing to do with you. :P )

Please, dear christ, let me start out this thread early on by saying that a lot of the population here is high-turnover and relatively new to the movement and still in the bitchy-asshole phase where there really is some ire against feminism for less than perfect reasons. (Edit: By which I mean no implication that there's any lack of perfectly good reasons. There are lots of perfect reasons. Just not everyone has them. Anyway, this sub is a huge sub on Reddit, gotta take that into consideration when thinking about the representation and seriousness level here. Treat it like a default -- mostly a hive of scum and villainy, some gold. /edit)

That said, fundamentally, when people claim that feminism is defined by being egalitarian, the central issue is that it's predicated on wrong assumptions about our world/western culture.

(Let it be stated that there is serious gender inequality in the world, but I'm talking about the first world and the average person in it.)

At the end of the day, men can be anything other humans can, and a lot of feminism is a big arbitrary weird model of social constructs surrounding how they theoretically can't. There is no useful generalizing about male and female natures behaviorally (unless one gets medically specific, which nobody who approaches this as a political issue ever fucking does, so it doesn't matter), or at least what there is is guesswork, but modern feminism takes the very rough, totally unpolished, baby-science of sociology (I won't quite call it a pseudoscience in general, but when you can have mutually exclusive models of theories in a field that are all considered valid, it's not a fucking science yet) -- so, more accurately, sociological guesswork -- and tries to infer natural rules from it. Shit like the construct of "the patriarchy" is basically literally religion. You know how Biblical myths aren't a basis for scientific argument? Neither are sociological constructs. It's that kind of thing.

So yeah, feminism adheres to some constructs some people made up, that aren't real (like the "patriarchy" and other weird conspiracy theory bullshit, which nobody would take seriously if they said "The Man" so they call it something else), and then demands that everyone accommodate that skewed reality. This is evidenced across a number of specific false claims and misconceptions perpetuated by modern feminism.

Now, everyone's particular issues that they care about the most, or hear about the most, or object to the most, are all different, but here's a quick list of my issues that I have a problem with modern feminism gaslighting about, based on my personal experiences/conversations/observations:

False rape accusations really are a fucking thing, and they're a really big fucking deal, and they are statistically significant, and there's a lot of nasty insidious manipulation of men by way of threats of these, and it's a sick disease among a lot of entitled young women. I should probably note at this point that I'm female too before someone gets mad at this story, but I socked a teenager and physically threw her out of my place one time for talking about turning in her boyfriend for statutory rape/claiming he raped her (no legit gap, he was like 19, it was all maliciousness), because he wouldn't get her a phone cover she wanted. She'd had it coming for a while, and was obviously an extreme case (everyone in that shithole part of town I was in was an extreme case of some kind) but she's not the only one and she's a really convenient example of a widespread symptom of slowly-increasing culturally-accepted misandry.
The wage gap is largely a semantic issue, and a "nobody in sociology knows what 'controlling for variables' means because most of the field isn't fucking scientifically minded worth a fucking damn or they'd be in another field" issue, and there's plenty out there on the internet verifying that so I'll leave this one there. I am all for equal opportunity, but equal representation is completely ridiculous liberal idealistic utopian nonsensical bullshit. It's like demanding that a doctor diagnose equal representation of patients with hypertension even though black people factually are more prone to it. It's fucking stupid.
Circumcision is fundamentally a fucked thing to have be so socially acceptable. While there is a little contention in the medical community on both sides of the fence about whether it's a good idea, there is essentially zero room for ethical contention about permanent body modifications being a thing that generally only should be chosen by consenting adults. The main reason this issue has grown in priority for me over time is specifically because of the really, really, really nasty and vicious ways people who bring it up are often treated, since anything to do with a penis itself provokes some of the cruellest and most point-missing insults from the feminist community, about how MRAs are a bunch of dudes whining about their dicks. That's fucking sick and twisted, and way too popular and acceptable.
The justice system is slanted against men in all kinds of messed up ways, that in some places are actually direct from legislation. That's a big tangled complex subject with many examples out on the web about it, and not one I'm as versed in as others, but there it is.
Edit to add: One specific issue is that women are not fairly held accountable for deceiving men into pregnancy. I get that a man is accountable for child support because it's the child's rights at that point and both parents are equally responsible, but in the first place there need to be harsher and fairer laws about pregnancy by deception and it needs to be considered tantamount to rape. On that note too, legally, female-on-male rape isn't even recognized as a thing in many jurisdictions, still, and that's a huge fucking deal as well, one which most modern feminists would outright dismiss as a nonissue.
The general Us vs. Them mentality bullshit. I hate false dichotomies. No, just because I have a vagina doesn't fucking mean I'm a victim, or that men are out to get me, and it's the same thing as poor communities and police or frustrated teachers with recalcitrant inner city students. I resist the fuck out of bullshit extremes like that. No one on earth is a goddamned Disney villain, and it's fucking narcissistic to paint anyone as anyone else's own personal fucking villain. Making generalizations about men never got anyone anywhere, and trying to make me identify as a permanent victim sure as shit won't help either. This is centrally about issues that impact men and why that proves that feminism's platform is built on mostly fictitious support beams, so I'm not going to rant about victim culture right now, but the thing I loathe most about feminism is the perpetuation of victim culture.

The MRA community has a share of people in it who are still emotionally dealing with the trauma of being gaslighted their whole fucking lives about their gender's legitimate problems, and sometimes they don't deal with it that well, and sometimes there's some woman-hating bitchery around here. Anyone who doesn't have a craniorectal inversion (their head up their ass) can acknowledge that, and it comes with the territory. But fundamentally, there are a lot of very real concerns that are very valid, and the MRM is more welcoming to actual legit middle-of-the-road egalitarianism than the feminist community is. By a long, long, long, "You're a fucking gender traitor/redpill-gobbling whore/men don't deserve to be in college/men should stay out of this field/how dare you not be a feminist/if you're a woman you're a feminist and I can tell you what you think and how you should identify", LONG fucking shot. Feminism has a strong and awesome history from once upon a time, but modern feminism is the most invalidating and victimizing thing I've ever been exposed to in my rather unsheltered life, and it's mutually exclusive to me being an egalitarian who acknowledges the problems men have. It is literally not possible to reconcile the stances of modern feminism, as declared in their religious texts by their prophets, with the notion that men can also have problems.

And while I really like your openness and hope you continue to have such a great attitude, I kinda feel bad for future you, because if you talk to other feminists and are all like "Well, of course we recognize men can also have problems. That just makes sense. Feminism is egalitarian!" you'll probably -- most cases, most places, some exceptions of course -- rapidly find that a lot of people you think are rational, and about whom you held good assumptions in your heart, are fundamentally sexist. Modern first world feminism has taught them to be, and a lot of people are unaware of the insidious sexism in their own rhetoric about gender issues. It's depressing, but it's usually how this goes. I truly hope you and the feminists around you are an exception and not the rule, because I do respect the last few holdouts who cling to the term "feminism" without meaning something deeply sick and twisted by it. It's a vastly outnumbered group, but an admirable one.

goodfoobar · 2015-05-05T17:04:04+00:00

Many of the active mens issues advocates were originally Feminists that believed in equality so much that they got ridiculed and harassed for defending the idea of male equality. Here is one example of a Feminist speaking out against men and women discussing male issues instead of focusing on womens issues. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=big+red+feminist

blueXcat · 2015-05-05T17:56:51+00:00

I am a woman and im egalitarian. I believe women and men have issues, but feminism doesn't allow men to have them. Except when it's also their faults.

Men suffer as fathers and divorcees, and have no help ressources when they are victims of women in case of rape and violence.

Women all over america mutilate their baby boys with circumcision, legally, and feminists only want to talk about fgm, which is at least illegal

Demonspawn · 2015-05-05T17:26:15+00:00

I'll ask you the same question I ask every feminist:

1) Please enumerate any government-granted rights which men have and women do not have in equal or greater levels.

2) Please enumerate any government-enforced responsibilities which women bear which men do not bear in equal or greater levels.

If women have equal or greater rights and equal or lesser responsibilities, as enforced by government, then why is there need for feminism (a movement of equality) to petition the government for redress of grievances?

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-05T16:35:29+00:00

My entrance into the mens movement was finding out feminists have been covering up abuse and lying to the public and government about it.

This is paul elams story http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/abc2020-the-psychology-of-hate-abc2020/

Warren farrell was excommunicated by feminism when he started looking into mens liberation and equality.

Most of us that spoke to feminists about mens equality issues have been abused and mocked.

Feminism is rolling back mens rights and rolling out more special rights for women, on top of the pre existing traditional problems.

2015-05-05T18:29:15+00:00

When I did my own research, a lot of the posts I saw were less about men's rights, and more focused on a hatred of feminism.

I think most of the other posters did a good job addressing the other parts of your post.

Why does it seem like we're just sitting around, bitching about feminism? Because it takes a fuck ton of effort to build something, and not very much effort for feminists to knock it down.

Host a talk about men's issues?

University of Toronto. U of T, before they pulled the fire alarm

Organize for any reason at all?

no, you don't

How about the International Conference for Men and Boys? I invite you to view the freely available speaker sessions on youtube, and then compare those with the media coverage of the event itself.

In sum, we would prefer to be constructive with our time, but it is increasingly difficult to do so without incurring the wrath of misandrists. We could have an MRA get-together for talking about puppies and sunshine, and these people would publish bomb threats for the event, claim harassment, and the media would still take their side.

And it's not like we're not doing anything either. A few weeks ago, we took action to petition a gym to update its sexist [pricing policy](np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/31ragv/this_uk_gym_charges_men_60_more_than_women_for/), and later took steps to bring the issue to the attention of the authorities. Many of us contributed towards the Honey Badgers going to the now infamous Calgary Expo.

For most of the people here, the main issues are pretty well agreed upon. Default shared custody, take false accusations seriously, equal rights and responsibilities, reproductive rights, bodily integrity, stop treating the behavior of boys as pathological. There are some minor points of contention, which are absolutely discussed here, but there isn't all that much to say. So what is there to discuss? Current events, mostly. There are a few men's rights blogs that are linked here, and many of the writers are actually members here as well. There have been a few MRM events, but they tend to be spread out. So outside of this circle, no one is talking about men's rights, except in the context of it being an "evil, misogynist movement". So I guess the natural path is to discuss the opposition's articles and actions, and decide which criticisms are valid, and which ones are absolute garbage. I've actually had a few minor opinions changed from reading some mostly garbage articles by feminists.

So to answer your question, it's a matter of trying to be strategic in choosing battles we think we have a shot of winning, and then simply a lack of discussion material (which is partly due to the former reason as well)

DarthSunshine · 2015-05-05T23:33:31+00:00

Also, a lot of people who don't know about the MRM think we're woman-haters. I'm female and don't see how this happened.

2015-05-05T17:12:12+00:00

There are MRAs who try to fight for equality from within the power structure but get beat by feminist year after year. The progress is very, very slow but I guess it's worth trying even if it means getting beat verbally with lies and aggression and scorn time after time.

Something that wouldn't suit me. That's why I chose years back another road: every time I saw a feminist spreading lies or hatred I challenged her or him with facts and patience. Unfortunately feminism is so much about lies and hatred that the hobby was becoming something like a full time work very soon.

Besides, dealing with, scorn, lies, and hate every day is a bad, energy consuming life strategy. So I started to do something else an kept this as a hobby.

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-05T19:52:42+00:00

At its core, MR is about making people aware of issues that men face, plain and simple. Feminism is there for women, men didn't have a collective voice until we banded together to make us heard. Both men and women have their own unique problems and many men say those problems were not being addresses. MR was then born.

As far as the "hatred of feminism", that goes along the same lines. When we, as men, say we have a problem, feminism tends to be there, in practice, to minimize it or make their issues bigger.

To use an example, say there are two people trapped in a room, both want to get out. You strive to get yourself out, but you're a jerk to not help the other person get out of the room as well. This is how feminism behaves towards men (not all, but many feminists). And frankly, you're jerk in that kind of situation if you only get yourself out when you can help get the other person out. Needless to say, that can leave a rather bad taste in your mouth if you are the one who is neglected while the other gets out of the room, even though you both have a problem.

Most MRAs understand women want to look out for themselves first, as we do on our own, but the difference I see (once considering myself a feminist) is that the MRA movement is more neutral and encourage to women then feminists are to men.

MRA tend to want women to be in STEM fields, we would champion encouraging women to strive for it, where feminism tends to just blame men, for example.

An other example of how they both work is looking at which each group says about the other gender. Feminism tends to blame men, as a whole (patriarchy for example). MRA's will be more specific and not say "all women", but will say feminists, and even go as far to identify that it's the extreme feminists. It's a simple language change, but the implications are great. This is why it seems MRAs hate feminism, but NOT women.

I would also add, feminism has its key players like any movement. When the key players champion hashtags like killallmen, merchandise that says male tears, we only need a 10% men population etc etc, it can be rather hard to not dislike the movement as no one in the movement is saying how wrong or unequal those types of things and actions are. You combine that stuff with the very serious nature of men's issues (like suicide, prison rape, war, family court, criminal court) it gives off the impression that feminists do not want equality as much as they only want progress for themselves. And many of us here would argue fighting for equality between the sexes does not include neglecting one of the sexes, but should include the other sex.

DelAvaria · 2015-05-05T17:29:14+00:00

ultimately my understanding of feminism is "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes.".

This is not what is being campaigned for. Just because a movement says they want equality does not mean that is how their actions speak.

Do you realize how many men's issues get completely tabled because of feminism?

cajunFAITH · 2015-05-05T17:41:54+00:00

I've never been able to accept feminism. I grew up with too much of an objective view of the world. I mean, I was an exceedingly rational child despite my naivete. I could believe a lot of things, but not any of them related to people telling me that I was a "victim" because I was female. Maybe it's because my parents raised me to just not believe in too many gender roles. I could wear whatever I wanted, I had cars and trains and dolls and an EZ Bake Oven. I was a firefighter for Halloween when I was like three or four.

I just couldn't accept any sort of idea that being female made me a victim of anything. I still can't accept the idea that having a vagina makes me always a victim. Yeah, it made me a rape victim because I have an insane person for an exboyfriend, but that's about it.

Anyway, on to a few reasons I've never been able to acccept feminism.

I've never accepted wage gap or rape statistics. Somehow, I just always knew that they were overblown or that people lied about them.

I learned when I was young that though females attempt suicide more often, males succeed far more often.

I've seen the demonization of men and transwomen rooted in the fear of people with a penis.

I've dealt with my brother as a single father who constantly ran into problems because people always asked where the mother was.

It hurts me to explain to people that my brother is a single father and be met with shock.

It hurts me to listen to one of my friends (also a single father) talk about how it feels when somebody will ask his son where his mommy is as if having Daddy isn't enough.

I never liked the name or how it focuses on just females/women. Something about being one-sided always got to me.

To me, the MRM is something that needs to be there to remind people that men actually have issues. Unfortunately, there is no real Women's Rights Movement anymore for when women have rights issues. Feminism has stolen that from women.

I'm not quite a full-blooded men's rights activist. I consider myself a practical egalitarian and gender rights advocate. Some days I may call myself a men's rights advocate. One thing I stay true to is calling myself a practical egalitarian. I want equality of rights for all practical purposes.

Targren · 2015-05-05T16:55:05+00:00

Dictionary definitions are irrelevant: actions trump words, and "Feminism" is not about equality in any sense, and those men's issues that aren't the direct result of feminism's actions are usually exacerbate by it.

For starters, read "interesting discussions" in the sidebar. This is all old ground.

ExpendableOne · 2015-05-05T17:30:06+00:00

ultimately my understanding of feminism is "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

Except that feminism basically frames equality as being a one-way street, presenting women as being unilaterally worst off or even "oppressed" by men(or patriarchy). That is, and never was, the case though. Men have always been just as much in need of equal rights, but instead we got a movement that not only ignored and dismissed everyone of the gender issues in which men were disadvantaged(or, in some cases, redefined those issues as examples of misogyny) but actively made men society's enemy without any care, concern or remorse(often by using the very distorted view of the world that they created and popularized). That is not equality. That is not even ethical. That is why there needs to be a men's rights movement. Not just to address the human rights issues men face that were completely ignored by feminism but also undo a lot of the collateral damage that feminism has caused during its global crusade.

People need to realize that feminism is not, and has never been, a true authority on gender equality, nor should it just continue to be allowed to proclaim itself to be the sole authority on all gender issues when it clearly has a very one-sided agenda and very much out of touch with reality. Men's rights need to exist because the only real gender movement we have is exclusively focused on women, and cannot even conceive that men actually need equality more than they do at this point. Men's rights need to exist because you have so many gender issues, many of which are pretty major, that still need to be addressed, and that feminists are still actively fighting against whenever they are brought up because they contradict their delusional narrative of female oppression and benevolence. Men's rights are required because we still live in a world that will actively dismiss men's issues, even the major ones, just to cater to women and feminist ideals, or because they detract from the most ridiculous or minor grievances from women and feminists.

weezel365 · 2015-05-05T16:56:21+00:00

One of the main problems is that where true feminists want equality, many others are viewed as the man-hating kind. In the same vein, we want equality between the sexes, but are mostly viewed like idiot misogynists.
We want the same thing; equality. We want women to get the same pay, be able to choose what to do with their bodies, be sent to war and die, lose the rights to their children, and have to work as sewer workers or ditch diggers.

People don't seem to be aware that this kind of crap even happens to men or that in the years of society doing our damndest trying to be politically correct in favor of women, we've actually stopped being equal.

2015-05-05T19:01:14+00:00

This is what the MHRM means to me:

"political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

The Men's Rights movement spawned because the dictionary definition of feminism isn't what is practiced in the media or the law.

If you want to argue that feminism is merely the female focused facet of egalitarianism, that's fine and the vast majority (There are ideologues of every stripe) of MRAs would support it wholeheartedly.

You could in fact call MRAs feminists, of the:

"political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

stripe, If you prefer the label of feminist to egalitarian or MRA.

my understanding of feminism is "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

It's not what feminism is in practice though.

If you take a look at what the feminist movement has pushed into law, you should be able to see why MRAs have such an issue with feminism. (Duluth model (leading to primary offender laws and erasure of male victims of IPV), tender years doctrine (The concept that women are naturally better parents, leading to default custody to the mother, unless the father can afford to fight in court), hijacking the shelter movement (Erin Pizzey, who's movement to help all was violently hijacked and turned into the women's shelter movement, which removed all support for male victims), removal of due process rights for men accused of rape (Just look at the university sexual assault framework). Speaking of rape, "teach men not to rape", not "teach people about consent" resulting in the erasure of male victims (AGAIN)), fighting against anonymity for those accused of rape, so that those accused have a chance to defend themselves before their lives are ruined, trashing the education system resulting in 1 in 5 boys being on ritalin and a huge number of them failing completely, and the list goes on, and on, and on).

None of this is to mention that pretty much every "statistic" trotted out by feminists is wrong. It's not that its just wrong though, if it was unintentionally wrong, sometimes it would be an underestimate. It never is though is it? It's always a hyperbolic line of crap designed to shame or scare people into agreement, backed up by name calling, "rape apologist!", "misogynist!" etc, etc, etc.

Examples:

1 in 5 college girls will be raped

77/100 pay gap video - well worth or text

etc, etc, etc

Or that there is never any attempt at correction when equality overshoots (percentage of boys failing high-school, percentage of boys going to uni, percentage of men in humanities, psychology, bio-chem etc ad nauseam)

And NEVER an attempt to demand equal representation in less pleasant jobs, like bin-men, sewer workers.

The conclusion most have come to is that feminism in practice is hardly described by its dictionary definition. The thing with dictionary definitions, is that they change. They are changed by how they are used and understood by society. Its the reason that they have literally and figuratively as synonyms in the dictionary.

Perhaps in future, we can have feminism as a synonym for rent-seeking

Lrellok · 2015-05-05T21:13:54+00:00

First, let us dispence with a missconception.

http://m.imgur.com/piqFLQX

This is a sample of MR members political compass scores. You will note that most of them are in the lower left. The mra is mostly ex party feminists who supported the original objective of gender equality. Understanding this is critical to everything else.

What the MRA is broadly for are a single set of rules uniformly and equally applycable to everyone. If women have abortion, we want legal paternal surrender. If women get paid family leave, we want equal leave. Failure to inform a partener about a sexual risk is assualt? She told me she was on the pill officer.

What we demand is equality in practice.

Hesitant_Observer · 2015-05-05T17:16:58+00:00

big question. former feminist, current egalitarian here.

There is a large section of the population that has simply gotten fed up with third wave feminism, to address the "woman-haters" and some genuinely are. most are fed up with the victimhood that all women are painted with by all of the feminists themselves. they are fed up with first world problems that you have to get over if you wanted to be treated as an equal in society. no coddling, no special priveledge, no protected status. all most of the rational world sees anymore are feminists who want to be treated like children, only to whine harder when they are.

The MRM is pretty diverse, there are pick up artists (PUA), men going their own way(MGTOW) various different advocates for every issue from circumcision, to abortion, the opening of domestic abuse shelters. MRA's tend to be what you would describe the MRM as if you are a feminist.

there is so much literature out there, videos, stories, statistics. men/boys don't have it very good, this is even taking into account the fantastic advances as a civilization we have made. we have both (men/women) been fighting off nature and overlords together for a very, very long time. this world is harsh, and it always has been. sexual dimorphism is a thing, gynocentricism is a thing. male disposability is a thing. women seem to get anything they want, they are the safest demographic on the planet, and men and boys just seem to get left behind, forgotten, or even blamed.

TL:DR- Is there even a right or privilege that men have that you don't?

sherpederpisherp · 2015-05-05T17:42:10+00:00

I follow the men's rights movement because I think the social enforcement of gender roles is incredibly unproductive and the cause of a lot of misery, as well as a huge waste of resources. I don't trust feminism to help dismantle these gender roles, as I've seen it directly promote some of the most basic ones (women as hypoagents, men as hyperagents).

When it comes to how the different genders are treated, well...

Women in the US, compared to men, live longer, happier, healthier lives. They have more friends, more education, and more leisure time. They are freer from violence and being the targets other crimes, from being homeless, and from drugs and alcohol. They have more freedom and rights when it comes to their bodies and their choices on how to live their lives.

ifelsedowhile · 2015-05-05T17:43:26+00:00

to the OP: is feminism just the believe in equal rights or does someone have to believe in the patriarchy theory? because I don't believe in the latter and I understand that would make me a heretic to feminists.

Carbon_Dirt · 2015-05-05T21:28:08+00:00

I'm sure you've gotten tons of responses already, so I'll try to keep this to-the-point.

Men's rights is just what it says; a channel to speak out against policies or public trends that are unfairly biased against men.

Typical examples include:

Child custody arguments; family courts nearly always side with the mother by default
Over-correction by Affirmative Action sorts of policies that favor women over men
Authority vs responsibility as a father; if a woman gets pregnant, she gets to decide whether to keep the child or not, even though that choice could cost the father hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of dollars.
Bias against men in legal settings; when punished for comparable crimes, men typically get near-double the amount of prison or probation time (and are much more likely to get the death penalty).
Double-standards on male sexual intent; If two people engage in sex while drunk, then technically the man is a rapist and the woman a victim.

That all being said... a lot of times, this place ends up being a big anti-tumblrina circlejerk. And it's sometimes valid; there are a lot of aggressive feminists/misandrists out there who use 'feminism' as an excuse to bash men. But there's definitely a lot of cherry-picking going on, and the whole vocal-minority argument rings as true here as anywhere else.

So at its heart, the MRM is about speaking up against discriminatory policies and unfair actions taken against men solely based on gender. It sometimes acts as a bit too much of an echo chamber and a handful of people involved probably take some things a bit too personally. But the ideals are solid.

chafedinksmut · 2015-05-05T21:32:53+00:00

I saw a great list that I like to keep around for this. We basically want these things addressed:

The Paper Abortion for Men. Is it okay to force a woman to be a parent because a pregnancy occurs? No. Therefore the same for men.

Equal Parenting Laws. 50% automatically assumed custody is self evidently equal.

Eliminating, or forcing women to sign up for, the draft.

Gender Equal Sentencing Laws

Gender Equal Funding Laws

Gender Equal Physical Requirements Laws

Elimination of VAWA for it's violation of men's 14th Amendment Rights. Most victims of intimate partner violence ARE MEN!! http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

Elimination of the pay gap myth. Take into account all factors rather than just all full time men's and women's wages, which is laughably simplistic, and the gap disappears.

Gender Equal Divorce Laws and Enforcement

Anonymity for the Accused Laws If the rape accuser is anonymous, so is the accused.

Men's Studies courses in all Universities, or the Elimination of Women's Studies

Men's Domestic Violence and Abuse Shelters

Right to Genital Integrity for Male Babies. If they were chopping off 20% of the nerve endings in every vulva, there would be an uproar. Babies can't consent to permanent sexual alteration, regardless if it helps prevent infections or not.

Stop medicating boys in schools. Boys aren't defective, the system is.

Stop painting all men as potential rapists/child molesters. "Teach men not to rape." Like all men are rapists and must be taught otherwise. How about "Teach women not to be golddiggers." See how both contain sexist premises? And, to top it all off, almost 50% of all rape allegations are false! http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf

EyeRedditDaily · 2015-05-05T17:40:56+00:00

In a nutshell...

Feminism is about correcting perceived social injustices like women not wanting to work in STEM jobs, cat-calling, women doing too much housework, etc. They try to correct these perceived injustices by supporting legislation that favors women at the expense of men.

Men's rights is about correcting injustices in the legal system - including both legislative injustices (like selective service, reproductive rights) and judicial injustices (family court / alimony / child support / child custody). Men's rights activists are not out searching to find ways that men are victims of society, because they believe that individual men can overcome those obstacles if they want to (i.e., if a man wants to be a nurse, he can go to nursing school. If he doesn't like the societal pressure on him to be a doctor instead, that's a problem with him, not a problem with society). Most men's rights activists are only concerned about situations where the law puts men at a disadvantage to women.

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-05T20:06:30+00:00

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paperairplanerace · 2015-05-05T21:30:45+00:00

There's another aspect of the Men's Rights Movement that attracted me and has since had its hold since when I first heard about it.

I'm here as a supporter due to my experiences with the Empathy Gap.

Addressing this issue is also part and parcel of the movement. It's also the root of many problematic areas that men face.

What I mean by Empathy Gap is that, compared to women, men just don't have that level of care or support from others. They're also treated as disposable tools that, once broken, are tossed into the scrapheap.

Family Court thinking mothers are the better caregivers?
Male Rape victims with no place to go, hardly anyone to turn to? Situations where men get harsher judgement compared to women?

All symptoms of that Empathy Gap.

I'll add another one:

Boys bullied by girls with nothing on the subject or hardly a sympathetic shoulder.

This issue here is what drove me to the movement. I'm a survivor of some pretty harsh bullying and abuse from both genders.

However, I found that society doesn't have the resources to deal with a boy that was bullied and hurt by girls. They won't even do the research or bother to care. However, they'll gladly stand by your side to condemn what boys did.

It's everywhere. You watch a coming-of-age movie about a boy growing up and he gets bullied? What gender are his tormentors? Boys. And only boys. Very rarely, if at all, will there be a girl amidst the crowd. Or if there is, her acts would be minimized and excused.

I've tried to heal. I wrote a play, I published an article. But it hasn't helped me be at peace with this. Last action I took was write about this more specifically and send the material to my psychiatrist so he and I can look at ways we can approach this problem that'll get me on the path to recovery. It's a step in the right direction.

Anyway, I digress.

What ultimately brought me here was feminists minimizing my experiences, reasoning that my white male privelege makes the struggles I endured not as bad as what the female gender goes through since I benefit from oppressive systems according to them. Plus, men are at the top so I should be fine.

I don't know about you, but that's bigotry. Pure fucking bigotry and heartlessness.

There were also areas where feminism really failed in terms of male issues.

Erasure of male victims from statistics? Thank researcher Mary P. Ross and the lack of blowback from feminist groups.

Girls getting special programs to help them in school, endorsed by special interest groups, failing to realize that BOTH genders struggled at the time? Yup, feminism is to blame.

The Duluth Model of Domestic Violence, Primary Aggressor Laws, Opposition to Shared Parenting. All in feminism's ballpark.

Since then, I've come to the conclusion that the only people who give a damn about this Empathy Gap and my issues are Mens Rights Advocates. Yes, there are feminists out there who do so as well but they tend to be called "Non-Feminists" by feminism practiced now. Christine Hoff Sommers being a primary example.

My point is I'm a survivor who's trying to hold on but am uncertain how long I can keep up the fight. Everyday I am seriously triggered by movies or books that push strong independent female leads but do so while hurting the male supporting cast. I hate it. HATE IT!

I want to enjoy books because I'm a reader and writer. Yet I'm having my fight-or-flight response flare up at the mere mention of "Strong, Independent Female Character".

And no, it's not because I am afraid of strong women. I'm afraid of strong women who use their struggles as an excuse to do the same thing to men what was done to them. I will not have that bullshit.

Unfortunately, I'm a freak show for thinking this according to the climate now. Something that deserves to be locked in a cage and mocked for eternity. Especially since I don't think women are perfect or are going to bring about world peace or end wars if they are in charge.

This is the only place I know so far that is safe for me.

Nobody likes a survivor of female abuse. Nobody cares.

DavidByron2 · 2015-05-05T17:11:59+00:00

Feminism is authoritarian marxism.

It endeavours to take work away from women that was untaxable, and make it taxable. To do this it promotes the false idea that women prior to feminism were somehow lacking power, when in reality what they had was independence from the state. Women's work as homemaker was untaxable and unregulatable. Homemaker women were as Galt as you can get.

The "empowered" woman pays other people to be mother to her own children, and pays a tax to the government for that dubious convenience.

TorontoIntactivist · 2015-05-05T18:24:12+00:00

Watch a circumcision, then you'll understand.

Tmomp · 2015-05-05T19:46:15+00:00

I started learning by reading this ~~thread~~ subreddit, which I originally came to to find flaws in. The more I read the more I started seeing the male-denigrating sexism that pervades society. It was there in my face the whole time but I didn't see it. How long have you read here?

Then I read Myth of Male Power. I can't recommend it enough. Women in my life who have read it found it helped them understand men, themselves, and society.

Why Men Are The Way They Are is just as good.

There are lots of videos by Girl Writes What on YouTube.

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-05T19:56:35+00:00

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TacoNinjaSkills · 2015-05-06T19:55:49+00:00

Your first paragraph already has a faulty premise: "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes"

Define political equality - Women already outvote men (USA at least, I don't know about Europe although many countries there even have a Feminist party).

Define social equality - Each gender already has a set of social privileges (picture a Venn diagram), do you weight them somehow?

Define economic equality - The average woman works less than the average man, has more options for leave, easier time scheduling, more incentives such as scholarships and even affirmative action, more access to government assistance, etc. etc. etc.

rickyharline · 2015-05-05T18:12:34+00:00

I identify as a feminist and am fairly active here. Others have done a good job pointing out the merits of the MRM's top priorities, so I'd like to discuss the anti-feminism sentiment that is nearly ubiquitous. Although I think that MRAs tend to over simplify things to the point of absurdity, they certainly have good cause to be frustrated with feminism. Although feminism in small part often will engage with the issues that MRAs care about, what we more often see are radical nutjobs purposefully harming men and mainstream feminism not giving a damn. This is most evident to my knowledge in the case of domestic violence. If you are sincerely interested in understanding this than give this a read.

If feminism wants to end its ghastly perception problem it will first have to fix the ghastly attacks on men it has made and continues to make, and stop pretending like they don't exist or that it's all okay because a feminist study was friendly towards men once or because they sincerely helped try to end male rape in prisons once. Feminism has a huge awareness problem and most feminists haven't the foggiest about the many atrocities committed in the name of the movement. People who reasonably bring these issues up get treated as ridiculous and mocked. In my opinion the main crime by the majority of feminism is not purposefully harming men -the majority of feminists sincerely want to help men and agree with most of the MRM's points- but in the creation and perpetuation of an authoritarian echo chamber that is anti-criticism, pro-narrative, and uninterested in reality.

Tl;dr:
Much harm has been done to men in the name of feminism, feminism doesn't care to criticize these actions or distance themselves from them, and from both an external or internal perspective it is difficult or impossible to say why this isn't mainstream/"real" feminism.

P.S.
Check out the intellectual anti-intellectualism qualitative-over-quantitative ideology-first anti-science that is prevalent in feminist academia on page 29 of the document I linked you to.

dicklord_airplane · 2015-05-05T18:12:04+00:00

the criminal justice system is woefully biased against men, and much of the bias traces back to feminist ideology. look at the Duluth domestic violence model, which was championed by feminists in the 90s and is still used today in various forms. I know for fact that California and Colorado use very similar policies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model

As of 2006, the Duluth Model is the most common batterer intervention program used in the United States.[2] It is based in feminist theory positing that "domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners".[2] Critics argue that the method can be ineffective as it was developed without minority communities in mind and can fail to address root psychological or emotional causes of abuse.[2]

this sort of policy is the very definition of sexism. it assumes that the man is the aggressor in any altercation between intimate partners, and this is very bad policy because it fails to identify and rehabilitate violent, abusive women. it also doesn't account for the prevalence of abuse in lesbian relationships. this is why i cannot trust feminists in politics and public policy. they aren't fighting for equality. they clearly want to write female chauvinism into law under the radar by flying the feminist banner, and they already succeeded. i bet that you didn't even know anything about this ugly bit of feminist history, and that should speak very loudly and clearly about the nature of feminism in politics and legislation.

I can't do anything about this personally because men become pariahs if they speak about domestic violence policy. I don't want to be labeled as that guy who wants to make wife beating legal, because that's all that most people will hear. I can only do my best to avoid violent women and tell my friends about the reality of the justice system in private. the fact is that a woman can easily lie about domestic violence and get a man put in prison, and men need to know this. feminists actively cover this up.

2015-05-05T18:57:12+00:00

There are countries in the world where women are treated unequally. These countries are not Sweden, Finland, and many if not most other western countries. Yet the feminists in these countries (particularly Sweden) keep screaming how women are mistreated. Which is horseshit. The feminists here in Finland cry of the patriarchy, of how in OTHER, 3RD WORLD countries women are mistreated, and how men are scum. Meanwhile, it's legal to circumcise a male, but not a female. Meanwhile, men have to spend 6 - 12 months of their lives (they don't get to choose the time, by the way) in military, or they must do +12 months of social service, and if they don't do either, they must spend a year in prison. Seriously ill males get a pass on this, of course, but women don't even need to give birth to a child to not have to do any of this, yet that's always the answer when someone asks what the fuck this injustice is about. "Women give birth." But they don't, and if they do, they do so by choice.

I'm talking about mostly my country, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people from western countries here can smell the bullshit in the air when it comes to feminists in western countries, where they don't face any issues unlike females in the middle east, for example.

Also, you can't make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them, whatever the case. Feminism is not about equality, it's about giving women power, which is only acceptable in countries where women face a lot more issues than men which, like I said, aren't in Northern Europe at the very least.

False rape accusations, unfair custody battles and women generally seen as the gender that should be given an advantage are some of the other problems, but there's a shitton of posts here so I'm not going to go into that with my inferior English

1337Gandalf · 2015-05-05T19:11:42+00:00

About feminism hate: Have you heard of Ti-Grace Atkinson? she was the President of the New York Chapter of the National Organization of Women in the late 60's and early 70's, during this time a woman named Valerie Solonas wrote a book entitled the S.C.U.M. Manifesto (which stood for the Society of Cutting Up Men) in which she advocated for the gendercide of 90% of men, with the remaining 10% being enslaved for the purposes of reproduction.

Ti-Grace Atkinson, the leader of a chapter of the largest feminist group called her "the first true feminist" for her work on the S.C.U.M. Manifesto.

Another fun fact about Valerie Solonas, she later tried killing Andy Warhol, the famous painter, and actually did kill his manager before ending up in and out of a mental institution for her schizophrenia.

shinarit · 2015-05-05T19:44:44+00:00

I wouldn't call myself an MRA, I'm just bothered when I see injustice. And feminism as a whole is pure injustice, propaganda thrust down your throat. (yes, first wave feminism too)

The MRM looks like a nice place to talk about these things.

PartyEscortBot · 2015-05-05T21:31:06+00:00

It wouldn't be fair to describe myself as an activist, I'm not really part of a movement. I'm more of an advocate, trying to level the playing field where I can.

Personally, our goals are the same. I'm in tune to the progression of men's rights, but only in the interest of equality. I'd hope we can eventually reach a point where gender can be disregarded in all professional matters (careers, courthouses, sports etc). I'm not exactly affected by discrimination on a daily basis, and I was fortunate enough to not be circumcised. Although I do worry for my future, and for my fellow men when I see them getting bled dry by biased laws and court systems. It pains me that men's issues are pretty much swept under the carpet in favour of the whole "men should be manly" idea, and society's acceptance for radical feminists mocking and belittling men truly worries me.

Which brings me on to my last point. I don't think many men here hate feminists. It's the radical, man-hating, anti-equality type feminists that are the problem.

Thanks for hearing our side.

Unenjoyed · 2015-05-05T21:56:15+00:00

What does the men's rights movement mean to you?

It basically means things are either unfair or there's a perception of unfairness.

What do you think are specifically "men's issues"

Top three might be diparity in custody awards, the throw away gender culture, disparities in a wide gamut of health issues.

What do you hope to accomplish through your movement

Awareness, fairness

How does gender bias and discrimination impact you in your daily life?

Me? Inconveniences of little consequence really. I'm just trying to stay aware of the very real issues other people face simply due to the fact of male gender.

2015-05-05T22:01:34+00:00

While the questions you asked could take me paragraphs to answer in full, in light of how the MRM is contrasted against Feminism, my responses would actually be quite short, not that I don't have much to say, but it would be more than fully corroborated by other comments in different wordings.

Like the title states, I am a self described feminist. While I do take a focus on women's rights, ultimately my understanding of feminism is "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

Well, it has always been my understanding that Feminism operates under the pretense that women should be equal to men, the wording obviously implying that women had, not just recently or at certain times but always, received the short end of the stick. I would like to say MRA's are wonderful egalitarians who believe sexism is a purely 2 way street (There are, on the 3 sides of the spectrum), but MRA's would argue the opposite in general, either by noting the degree or quality of discrimination (110% of X experience this, while -80% of Y experience this, X doesn't face problems that are nearly as important as what Y has to face).

I have heard a lot about Men's Rights, but it is mostly negative opinions about the movement. When I did my own research, a lot of the posts I saw were less about men's rights, and more focused on a hatred of feminism.

Well, yeah, there's negative opinions of the movement. After about a year I've almost came to completely ignoring other people's comments on my affiliation, though I love a good debate anyday. Anti-Feminism is a part of men's rights. You can argue otherwise, but the ideal we're trying to display is not that Femnists are ugly or always burn their bras and other stereotypes. Well personally, I don't care about these issues at all, and I don't feel like they even point to a radical fanaticism. If you feel like women only wear bras to impress men, if you think men can get away with armpit hair more than women, and that's bad, I'm with you. I've encountered plenty of Anti-Feminist non-MRA's, and their focus would lean to a more traditionalist anti-progressive stance, and that's not who I feel like I am. When I say I don't agree with Feminism, I'm disagreeing with a theory that has brought the Duluth model and other legislation that I don't approve. I have plenty of Feminist friends that I'm on good terms with even within the realm of gender equality, though our lens are tinted with opposite hues. Basically Feminist believe men need to improve to help women, and MRA's about the opposite, or more like men giving up their responsibilities and gaining legal rights and what not.

So, r/mensrights, I ask you: What does the men's rights movement mean to you? What do you think are specifically "men's issues", what do you hope to accomplish through your movement, and how does gender bias and discrimination impact you in your daily life?

The men's rights movement, is, key word here, a movement that believes that systemic discrimination occurs against men on a legal and social field that originates from biology, that is gender norms were made in an era that would favor cultural expectation of Male expendability and gynocentrism (Yes, we have our own range of buzzwords, I'll talk about ideology in the bottom). We seek for equality meaning that the law is gender-neutral or equivalent (In the case where basic biology causes a large change in circumstances, say a man's reproductive rights and a woman's reproductive rights, but a moral obligation still should compel us to make the two equivalent.) Gender equality is also the freedom of choice, one being reproductive choice and life choices in general, or choice in how one wishes to express their gender. In a perfect world, a macho man or an effeminate one are not treated any differently as human beings, traditional gender norms can be broken but the association with them isn't sexist.

what do you hope to accomplish through your movement,

~~Turn everyone into MRA's bowing down to the men who have a history of being butthurt about their perceived history~~

Convince people that men can have problems. I say people because in my xperience Feminists rarely downplay men's problems on a case-by-case basis. Paul Elam feels like there should be a focus on this in the movement, before legislative changes can be considered.
Eliminate gender bias in the law. This seems quite simply from an ethical standpoint, but to make a parallel to Feminism this will still take a long time to effect and it may not be in my lifetime where I'll sit pondering how men still face de facto discrimination. The legislative situation for male victims of rape and DV are deplorable in many places outside the Anglosphere, and even here in the U.S. it's legal for a woman convicted of statutory rape to garner child support from her victim once he turns 18.
Yeah. That's kind of it. Yeah sure social perceptions need to be changed, but I must stress that I'm not interested in forcing Men's rights theory down people's throats in order to forward the cause (and eventually this might be the ends, and that would be quite an Orwellian situation.) I feel like people are humans and given campaigns that reach towards that, I think we'll be on a track where all people can be treated like the delicate yet strong, individual, and precious person they are.

And of course I would love to argue that men's rights aims to do more for men than Feminism and Feminists are evil conspiratorial misandrists. (For me arguing is an ends in itself for being a refined person, though at the of the day I am an egalitarian moderate who looks down on the polarization of any community that I participate in), but I don't have the time now, I'd love to hear a reply from you later this evening.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-05-06T00:41:53+00:00

Request for the OP. Can you do a write up about what topics you agree with, disagree with, didn't know about, learned more about etc.

One of the big issues between MRA and Feminists is communication. If you could help us understand where our communication is solid, where it is weak and where our message just isn't getting out it would help immensely in future attempts to communicate rationally with feminists.

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-06T03:20:15+00:00

Simple put the Men's Rights movement is what the feminist movement should be. We don't want better rights, we want equal rights. So much you hire about women's rights is made up statistics that are highly cherry picked. We want to rid the conversation of that. Everyone should support men's rights as it benefits everyone not just men.

greycloud24 · 2015-05-06T04:16:49+00:00

look for the factual feminist she is an "equity feminist" which is the feminism label of the MRA. MRA would be a branch of feminism that focuses on the male side of equality, but some feminists are angry that it focuses on men and they try to say that it is something that it is not.

MRA has many radicals just like feminism does. many of these are disenfranchised men who are angry at women who have taken advantage of them and destroyed their lives using a legal system that tends to favor women over men.

MRA wants what 2nd wave feminism wants. equality before the law in social, and economical systems. women have many privileges just like men do, and we have to look at everyone's privileges in order to find equality.

bebo_126 · 2015-05-06T05:16:42+00:00

I'd say Men's Rights (at least this subreddit) is broken into two different sections.

Bashing radical third wave feminism
Raising awareness for men's problems

You're right that ~~most~~ lots of what we do is bashing the stupid kind of feminism. If you check out /r/TumblrInAction , you'll see lots of the radical feminism I'm talking about. It's the "kill all men" and "male tears" sort of thing. Nobody here has a problem with women being able to vote, or making equal wages. Just like feminists call themselves feminists and are about equality, so MRA's are for equality, even though we focus on men's issues.

The second thing we do is talk about and try to raise awareness of men's issues. Un-consensual circumcision, unfair prison sentences between men and women, no due process of law for accused male rapists, and the assumption that the male is always the aggressor in domestic disputes are all things that we fight against. I'm sure there are more, but I'll leave that to the Reddit professionals.

Spoonwood · 2015-05-05T18:31:32+00:00

What parts of the FAQ have you read or you had trouble with?

Have you read any relevant books like David Benatar's The Second Sexism, Warren Farrell's The Myth of Male Power, or Katherine Young and Paul Nathanson's Legalizing Misandry?

You say that you're for equality of the sexes, but you emphasize women and girls with your terminology. It turns out that in many countries women and girls have more rights than men and boys. Women are often protected by law from having their genitals cut for non-therapeutic reasons before they reach adulthood. Men are not similarly protected. Women effectively can legally opt of responsibility for supporting a child via adoption or abortion unilaterally at some point in time after sex. Men effectively can't unilaterally opt out of responsibility for supporting a child at some point in time after sex. In the United States compulsory selective service registration only applies to males.

In many countries affirmative action programs exist which explicitly favor female candidates over male candidates when the female candidate is specifically less qualified with respect to non-gender considerations. And that happens in spite of the general higher unemployment rate of men than the unemployment rate of women.

Recently there was a paper which showed that female candidates for tenure track positions get preferred by a 2 to 1 ratio over male candidates with the same qualifications. The inference made by the authors and most media sources wasn't that there existed discrimination against men, but rather something else that isn't worth mentioning. And it seems that academia is no stranger to ignoring/marginalizing discrimination against men: http://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/10588/how-is-sexism-unknowingly-perpetrated-in-academia

Have you read sites like this? http://www.realsexism.com/ (which might not be the greatest in terms of accuracy, but it comes as fairly well organized)

notnotnotfred · 2015-05-05T17:19:26+00:00

Read this. The article itself is a quick read on one single issue: rape, but demonstrates reasons for my fury at political feminists, because they refused to acknowledge rape as it is often done to men.

the faq is more even handed.

my feminism is a cloud piece is more ranty.

My killallmen entries demonstrate a few instances of hatred against men

PierceHarlan · 2015-05-05T17:56:20+00:00

http://www.cotwa.info/2014/12/2014-in-review-year-of-backlash-against.html

Sarge-Pepper · 2015-05-05T18:10:06+00:00

Here's a split list of evidence why feminism is held in bad regard here and by men in general (Regardless of how few of us actively talk about it out loud.)

The first half is all quotes from academic feminists and heralds of the feminist cause.

The second half is actions recorded and pointed out that were perpetrated by feminism.

It's honestly pretty disgusting when seen all at the same time. But the worst part is that it isn't made up. It's all happened and been said. There's no embellishment in the simple statements, no buildup or spin. It's just a list of facts and quotes.

http://t.co/hSl7OZEdNX

porygonj · 2015-05-05T19:22:29+00:00

Well, for one, it spread lies such as the wage gap. THE WAGE GAP DOES NOT EXIST.

fingerboxes · 2015-05-05T21:26:57+00:00

I think it is worth noting, and repeating if it has already been mentioned to you; that anti-feminism and MRM are not the same thing, but often go hand-in-hand. Many anti-feminists are MRAs, and many MRAs are anti-feminists. In addition, anti-feminism is not a 'hate movement'; while there are anti-feminists who legitimately hate women, there are also many feminists (a growing mainstream contingent) who hate men. There are cogent, reasoned objections to feminism, which is itself, objectively, a hate movement.

A close analogy would be that secular humanism is not the same thing as atheism, but many atheists are secular humanists and vis versa. Likewise, most 'strong' atheists would consider religions to be hate groups in the same way that many fundamentalist religionists view atheism as a hate movement.

BreakingRadioSilence · 2015-05-05T21:49:38+00:00

We are afraid that the world is beginning to shift not towards equality, but to the opposite extreme. We fear the day where it is socially unexceptionable to be masculine. I understand people are different, but i also want to reserve my right to be what i consider a man, and not what women consider a man. Men are different from women, and this movement wants to serve as the reminder that if men want to be men, they can be men. that is what this movement means to me.

rbrockway · 2015-05-06T03:40:25+00:00

You're right that we do criticise feminism a lot. This, I think, is because feminist ideology is used widely today as justification to attack men and boys. If someone believes 'The Patriarchy' (as defined in feminist ideology) is real then they will naturally draw certain conclusions, such as that men are perpetually in a privileged position and cannot have gender-specific problems, regardless of how much this runs counter to the evidence. In order to help men we need to show that ideas like The Patriarchy are nonsense.

Also a small point on nomenclature. MRM is the men's rights movment and MRA normally means men's rights activist or men's rights advocate so IMHO it doesn't make sense to say 'thanks MRA' instead of 'thanks MRM'. It may sound like a nitpick but I find this a common mistake made by people outside of the MRM. It might still be a nitpick :)

jags85 · 2015-05-06T05:37:03+00:00

It's easy to overlook bias and discrimination when it doesn't affect you directly. There is a huuuuge overlap of feminists and MRAs who want exactly the same thing. A male perspective to egalatarianism is just as important as a female one- to me MRAs sort of fill that role.

typhonblue · 2015-05-07T22:41:34+00:00

Inflating women's victimhood relative to men is misogynist. Men's issues are the best counter argument to that toxic notion of womanhood being equal to victimhood.

SexistFlyingPig · 2015-05-05T18:26:49+00:00

Men's Rights:
1) The right to get married and not run the risk of losing half (or more) of everything you have ever or will ever own. And maybe get to see your kids.
2) The right to have equal access to high paying jobs. Right now, there are scholarships and incentive programs everywhere for women who want to do computer science or some other high tech job. There aren't these same programs available to men: we just have to work for it. I would notice that there are no women crying about not having 'access' to some high paying (but very dangerous/disgusting) jobs.
3) The right to equal pay for equal work. Men work much longer hours, often making only 20% more than a woman working 50% of the hours.

The really big one is the right to be free of government-imposed requirements to make everything easier for women (and therefore harder for men). I notice that competent female computer programmers don't bitch about it being 'a boys club'. They do their job and earn their respect.

BasementJAXX · 2015-05-05T19:20:11+00:00

This seems like a rhetorical post. no matter what will be said, you will have a negative counter

MRMRising · 2015-05-05T16:55:57+00:00

Listen to this;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oZ_UHYagWQ

DavidByron2 · 2015-05-05T17:20:42+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement, so that's the context you're coming from. Unlike you when they say they want equality they actually mean it, instead of pretending to be something they are not as a vehicle for denigrating an entire birth group.

While I do take a focus on women's rights

Since women have all the privilege and the rights men do not have, this contradicts your claim to only want equality. MRAs are more or less what you only pretend to be.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-05-05T16:33:06+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

cymrich · 2015-05-05T19:28:28+00:00

feminism has, for a long time now, been pushing for far more than equality. they have been pushing for preferential treatment based on their gender and in many ways they have gotten it. they make wild and baseless claims about men and aren't held accountable in most cases. MRM is for men to attempt to stop this and move toward real equality... as the name suggests it is focused on issues where men are being discriminated against based on their gender, which is typically done by the feminists. feminists like to ignore the discrimination or come up with ridiculous reasons why its ok to discriminate and also love to make a big flashy show out of it to humiliate the men to boot. anyone that tries to stand up for themselves is instantly labeled a sexist or a misogynist and then disregarded. they refuse to allow anyone from an MRM to post any opposing views on issues on their subs... thats an insta-ban if you even try it... in fact if I were to take your own post and go to /r/feminism and reverse the roles, i.e. say I'm with MRM and want to understand feminism.... I would be banned from all feminism subs that share admins... not just the one I posted in. that militant attitude certainly is the type of thing that causes the feminist hatred you mention

Odonata_Anisoptera · 2015-05-05T20:17:53+00:00

I don't think there is a "men's rights movement". There is currently a massive movement going towards equality, with all sorts of people participating in the way they think is best. This subreddit is called "mensrights" and serves as a place for people of any sex to express frustration, agreement, new ideas, and anything else that will help us remember that equality is the end goal.

You stated that you saw a lot of our posts as simply being negativity towards feminism. Now, that sounds like you suggested that we don't really have a goal beyond taking potshots at the female rights movement. I'll let that go because you were so kind as to ask rather than misinform others as to what we here are about.

The fight for equality is simply that. Equal rights, equal opportunities. The mensrights sub is a place where we can freely remind ourselves that men need to actively fight for equality as well. Women have had it much harder than men when it comes to freedom, but men have had it much harder than women when it comes to their relationship with life, death, and offspring.

Women should definitely fight for their rights. It would be nice to someday be able to dream of being a stay-at-home dad and actually say that aloud without being admonished. It would be nice to dream of a wife who is also a ranger or green beret, I mean, can you imagine the physique? It is not nice, however, to be accused of being a part of rape culture just because I breathed and then typed at you.

Anyway, you get the idea. Equality is equality, not an extreme feminist's dream world. Men's rights are about women's rights, and remembering and reminding anyone that sees that a line needs to be drawn DOWN THE MIDDLE.

Embryo557 · 2015-05-05T21:55:42+00:00

One of my best friends is a radical feminist, her and I talk largely on the matter and there are misconceptions on both sides. Her radical ideas are that everyone should work together to dismantle the system they hurts every human. She agrees that laws in family courts and other laws are geared to hurt men, but says feminism is the answer. She is active in her community and says the hateful feminist ideas I ask her about, or link to her of blogs and news reports, are indeed not what real feminist are about.

She says much like the black panthers need white people to help overcome the problems they face, women, need men to help overcome inequality.

The problem I see is that anyone can claim to be a feminists. Just as anyone can claim to be a MRA. You have some people who are full of hate due to a bad experience, and come up with these crazy ideas. Much like someone who was robbed by someone who happened to be African American, now has a hatred for African American people.

You find blogs, and youtube videos, facebook groups, geared and driven by statistics that have been proven wrong time and time again, by people who have a perverted idea of the movement they claim to be a part of.

TL;DR We all want equal rights, to be treated fair, but self proclaimed feminists come up with crazy things that are not equal. Throw around words, and studies, and talk about rape like its ebola to make men seem evil and hateful to the high road they call feminism. I also don't claim any stance for any political party, so don't hate me for being a man with an opinion.

babno · 2015-05-05T22:18:13+00:00

RE hatred of feminism, it's pretty much forced on us. Feminists as a group work directly and indirectly through lies and misrepresentation. They minimize mens problems or make it seem like doing something to fix them is an attack on women. We hear every day from feminists how false rapes are virtually non existent and thus we can deny accused of their rights and presumption of innocence, or how creating mens abuse shelters is taking away from women, regardless of evidence.

And that's the indirect attacks. They'll take any opportunity to slander men, mens rights, and the movements goals. They say the patriarchy has complete control and silences them, while the president of the united states repeats the wage gap myth for them and they organize violent riots to censor the free speech rights of a former member of NOW. Even recently, as in the last few days, there's been the age of ultron hissy fit. If you're unaware, the basic summary of the situation is feminists didn't like the way black widow was portrayed in the movie, so they decided to attack, insult, even threaten joss whedon (a feminist himself, working for decades to create strong female protagonists like buffy) to the point where he had to delete his twitter account, and he likely didn't even have any control over her portrayal anyways. They indiscriminately attacked him well beyond a reasonable response for a "crime" he may not even be responsible for, and yet many articles will praise feminism and the nobleness of this outcry while simultaneously saying "MRM asshole" despite this being 100% unrelated to the MRM.

Lance_lake · 2015-05-06T02:35:46+00:00

how does gender bias and discrimination impact you in your daily life?

I have a well paying job, a clean house and a desire to have my kid with me. My ex is a high level hoarder, my sons room has never been used due to dog shit in there, she has no job and no real marketable skills.

She has custody and I've been trying to get custody only to be turned away every time I try, because she is the mother.

mensufferdoucare · 2015-05-06T03:22:53+00:00

throughout history men and women both suffer just as much , equally in their own roles or places , in the home, battlefields, ditches or dishes. Throughout history and even today women demanded men protect women from men, so they did. Women expected men to lead even if some women took the lead throughout history. That is fact.

Then came feminism, led by mostly well off white women, which said ... the status quo is not enough. Women deserve more rights , let us define it is "political, social, economic equality with men" thus began the one sided and hypocritical discussion about RIGHTS and responsibilities between men and women.

you see radical feminism is right at home in developed nations complaining about men speaking up about their rights. moderate feminists want to go to third world countries and fight for "womens" rights, and again men are left out of the discussion of helping their humanity, their rights they miss women dont and the responsibility men are saddled with women dont want anything to do with. thats not equality. that's special treatment and leads to misandry because men are overlooked and often made the scapegoats to further increasing agendas for more and more and m ore women's rights. it is never enough, there are always more women's rights to fight for, per western feminism. but feminism hardly ever talks about mens rights and helping men.

the mens rights movement is a direct result of the double standard, hypocrisy and misandry of feminism for over a century. men are finally speaking up and guess what... feminists don't want to hear it.

remember when feminism blamed "men" for the lack of rights women face?

now mens rights are blaming someone for their lack of rights, its not women they blame, its feminism and white knights. its movement is growing and it is pissing off feminists and making others think twice about their oh so innocent movement.

rbrockway · 2015-05-06T03:33:49+00:00

I'm glad you asked :)

Here you go: An Introduction to the Men's Rights Movement

iainmf · 2015-05-06T07:07:59+00:00

/u/honestquestion95 I'm interested in what you think are the big issues facing women? I'm a man and sometimes it's hard to see the things that are uniquely women's issues.

2015-05-06T20:24:03+00:00

2015-05-06T22:37:21+00:00

Started a throwaway just to ask this question? why??????

2015-05-07T13:29:49+00:00

The difference is simple, men are fighting to protect the rights of men as well as to have equal footing in many categories where our rights are not the same. This is compared to feminists whom work for special privileges and unequal rights for themselves.

Examples: If we are both construction hands. If I can carry 10 boards at a time and you can carry 4 boards, I should be making 2.5 times as much money as you are, based on the fact that I have the ability to work 2.5 times faster. If a man were to carry only 4 boards, then he would likely be terminated.

Even still you hear women's rights groups saying they should get paid equally, even if their quality of work and output is much lower.

thalos3D · 2015-05-07T17:09:30+00:00

There is a perception that some feminist elements have transitioned from pro-woman to anti-man. The men's rights movement is a response to that.

ostroman1989 · 2015-05-07T17:17:04+00:00

social investment in men is generally very low while expectations are extremely high and hostile, this comes both from close social peers and family as well as legal and high level media debate.

so not all problems faced by men are a result of modern era womens lib but feminists have been strongly anti anything mens-rights for some obscure reason.

you can start by becoming post-feminist, they will show you the rest themselves.

slideforlife · 2015-05-07T17:44:05+00:00

Same as you, "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes".

-'cept I'm trying to avoid social manipulation by working to insure a level playing field for opportunities rather than worry about the outcomes -which will fluctuate organically.

ikzeidegek · 2015-05-07T18:42:17+00:00

When I got divorced, I was repeatedly told "If you had been the woman in this situation, you would have gotten full custody of your children within days."

Instead, my children had to go through hell.

This to me is feminism.

McGauth925 · 2015-09-10T15:15:07+00:00

I'm into Men's Rights. BUT, a lot of it is pretty anti feminism. So, a lot of feminists and women in general will tell us that it's toxic because it's anti feminism. They pay attention to only that aspect, and judge the whole movement by it.

Some of what I see in Men's Rights does look extreme to me. Some it does seem replete with misogyny. But, some of the anti feminism stance is justified simply because there are extremist feminists who really do have very little use for men, and because misandry is one of the results of feminism. There are those who'll tell us that misandry isn't a stance of "real" feminists, but those are people who are defining feminism in a way that pleases them. Other people, mostly women, who define themselves as feminists continue to have very little use for men.

In my view, feminism has had both good and bad effects on men. Some of it's fair and balanced, and some of it isn't. That which isn't greatly deserves to be opposed. Thus, some anti feminism is justified, just as extremist MRA stances deserve much opposition. Feminism has always included extremists, and most feminists ignore that and concentrate on MRA extremists. That stance alone is unbalanced and deserves to be opposed.

Another aspect is that many feminists think they have everything covered about gender issues in their hypothesis/theory of the patriarchy. They tell us that men don't need MRAs because women and feminists already say everything for men that needs saying. The actual fact is, women's issues receive hugely more attention, and men's issues are more or less lost in all the women-centered media to be found. Most women really aren't particularly interested in men's issues. Thus, men need people who are pretty much focused on men.

To me, without feminism, there never would've been a Men's Rights movement. We owe them a debt. I see Men's Rights as an extension of feminism, but with a necessary focus on men, AND some necessary opposition to some feminist positions. All movements have dissenting factions. To me, the best aspect of Men's Rights is as a dissenting faction of feminism. The worst is pretty much misogynist, the same way radical feminists are pretty much misandrists.

jimmywiddle · 2015-05-05T21:45:00+00:00

Jesus Christ not another one of these idiotic question posts.... Why don't you read the 45 other threads with exactly the same fucking title instead of posting the same thing again ?

If you can't be arsed to use the search feature of this site why should we go to the effort to explain it all to you ?

Faryshta · 2015-05-06T08:03:49+00:00

thank you MRA, you really changed my perspective.

ONE OF US!

SilencingNarrative · 2015-05-05T19:32:07+00:00

I'd be curious to know how well you think the set of self described feminists does living up to your definition of feminism.

I'd also like to know if you think that men-as-a-group took advantage of women as a group for the bulk of history. I think that belief is a common thread running through most feminist thought. I would even call it a foundational belief that sheds more light on the behavior of self described feminists than your definition does.

2015-05-06T03:27:05+00:00

There are some men's issues (inequlities) of great importance that feminist's deny or refuse to discuss, which only leads to polarization. There may be fewer men's issues of concern than women's issues, or not -- I don't know personally, and many MRA's disagree. The point is that men's right's is a non-issue, immediately disregarded, by the vast majority of (vocal/published) feminists. That said, many MRA's are worse than the polarizing, men's-right's-denying feminists, so they deserve their reputation, on average (there are also those who adopt the MRA label that who are fair/rational/unprejudiced -- they are the minority).

[Everything said here applies to vocal feminists and MRA's. God only knows what the average concerned person who does not voice themselves thinks.]

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-06T17:13:35+00:00

"I'm going to stop replying for the most part now, because I have to sign off and get on with my life"

Sigh

I think I'll just stop participating in threads like this. Because it always ends up this way where the OP just saunters off with just a simple "Thank You" and a change of perspective.

The OP also didn't bother to reply to what I had to say.

It's always the case. Things stay the same: Male Survivors like me still live in a world that wished they never existed.

Damn me for putting effort, that would've been better spent on other things, into a reply that was never given consideration and directed at a faceless OP Feminist who I will likely never see or hear from again.

EDIT: Oh. Someone DID reply to my contribution. Wished it was the OP though.

JFConz · 2015-05-06T11:32:03+00:00

I'll probably get down-voted to oblivion, but from the past few years of trying to participate in the discussion on /r/mensrights all I see the subreddit as now a combination circle-jerking of a dead horse. I see the same stories posted a dozen times in a week, with the same hive-mentality comments. I'll admit there are some arguments that I feel have merit and I stay subscribed to see some of the new stories and discussion, but many times I feel the discussions become a round of "here, heres" when one person hates on feminism or calls someone ignorant. That is my impression of the subreddit, not the movement as a whole.

Currently, I've received flak for disagreeing that costumes with fake muscles on them are disgusting, and not being enraged over my circumcision.

I'm all for equality. I'm all for discourse. I'm all for progressing to a better society. I'm all for accuracy in statistics.

I know that the entire /r/mensrights community cannot be reduced to the rabble I have described, so I'll apologize to anyone actually participates in respectful discourse.

Edit: forgot a word, "and", also spelled discussion wrong.

bsutansalt · 2015-05-06T03:25:26+00:00

Here's the short short version:

MRAs are feminists for men.

More specifically we generally hold to 2nd wave feminist ideals, not the crap 3rd wave radfems tend to spout (i.e. patriarchy "theory" & rape culture).

d3k4y · 2015-05-05T19:49:16+00:00

Can't wait to here about this thread from a first date or drunk SJW at a party. The bitterness on all sides of this is just depressing. ALL the extremists are wrong, but they are much more rare than either side seems to think. I wish people didn't identify with either side and just stuck to bashing those who trash the rights of anyone of any sex. It's not like anyone does shit besides bitch online anyways and "spread awareness". I'm fucking "ism" fatigued.

honestquestion95 · 2015-05-05T20:59:28+00:00

Why do you hold onto the feminist label like a drowning person holding onto a life raft when you so obviously fear feminists, and how can we take you seriously?

Or is the reason you come here under a new account so that we can't see your feminists postings on "equality"?

drinkthebleach · 2015-05-05T23:07:21+00:00

Feminism being the radical idea that women are people, Men's Rights is the radical idea that women are adults capable of making their own decisions and handling the consequences.

rg57 · 2015-05-06T06:24:51+00:00

I'm not going to enact that labor. You can read.

paperairplanerace · 2015-05-05T17:00:43+00:00

my understanding of feminism is "political, social, and economic equality between the sexes."

If you are just going to come in here and play dumb, you probably aren't going to get very far.

wazzup987 · 2015-05-05T20:15:50+00:00

Yeah, this is why r/theredpill is taking over...

Kenee24 · 2015-05-05T17:16:45+00:00

If you cared about equality you wouldn't call yourself a feminist. FEM-INIST.

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-top-10-issues-of-mens-rights/

Go here and read it, guys on /r/mensrights do not have to feed you what you want on tap. If you cared you would see how much info there is on this subject already.

what does it mean to me?

Uh, it's about fairness. Go away with your feels fest questions.

Trail_of_Jeers · 2015-05-06T14:12:29+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	I am a feminist. Help me understand the Men's Rights movement.
Author	honestquestion95
Upvotes	236
Comments	467
Date	May 5, 2015 4:32 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/34yg3r/i_am_a_feminist_help_me_understand_the_mens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-am-a-feminist-help-me-understand-the-mens-rights.981116 https://theredarchive.com/post/981116

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