I feel like, most men on here would easily resolve their issues with women and their views on women if men as a group viewed them as people and not just achievements to be made and rewards to be had... oh, and just went to therapy...

Pathosgrim · 2024-07-11T19:00:51+00:00

Yet Women are allowed to view Men by their occupation and status

pwishall · 2024-07-11T17:20:50+00:00

She said while judging men as a group.

SecondEldenLord · 2024-07-11T17:25:37+00:00

You are literally judging men as a group right now.
Men do view them as people, not every man is like a Chad.
Therapy isn't for everyone, it is not a solution for all problems and I am saying that as a man who went to therapy 3 times and got nothing out of it but more like judged and blamed for my problems.

Opie67 · 2024-07-11T17:43:28+00:00

Many guys are raised by their mothers to think that being nice and caring to women was what it took to get them interested. They were never made aware that being attractive to women was a completely different set of qualities.

Lot of the frustration comes from guys who grew up with the wrong mindset and got out into the world and felt deceived when they realized things aren't actually how they were told. Unfortunately Tate and other grifters capitalize on this and fill young dudes minds with even less effective mindsets

Myagooshki2 · 2024-07-11T19:07:42+00:00

I saw 15 therapists before the manosphere content told me things that the therapist didn't that I needed to know. Manosphere has its limitations but therapy usually sucks.

Honestly I'm just going to leave it at that. I'm fucking pissed that the therapy industrial complex hasn't resolved my issues. That I needed to go into the fucking manosphere to learn about masculinity and social calibration and charisma and frame control and all that. Why couldn't the therapist realize that I needed to know that stuff and teach it to me? Why do I still suck at it? How come the therapists still don't help me? It's very discouraging stuff. Therapy blows.

Akusham · 2024-07-11T23:21:07+00:00

One on one talk therapy straight up won't help lonely men because the only thing that therapists can can only talk you through the emotional problem you walk in with. However, the emotional problems doesn't always cause loneliness. For some people underdeveloped social skills causes loneliness, then the emotional problems. Men in this situation just need practice. It's easy for a man to get social reps in with other men, but getting social reps with a group that would rather see a bear than them... Some men have an easier time escaping poverty than getting a girlfriend in America. Of course many men will see women as achievements. Trying to be content enough to not veiw women that way when you have been struggling your whole life takes an inimaginable amount of emotional maturity (I genuinely think that less than 99% of people can actually do this). It only seems easy to most women and some men because they spent little time looking and not finding. Getting your first close friend that is the opposite gender is way easier when you're 20 then when you're 30 and the more experience with having one makes it easier to get one (for several reasons). The struggle is more exponential than you would think. TLDR, it is extremely unreasonable to expect anyone to not view a group as an achievement after 10+ years of trying and failing to be with them. Therapy won't help. The problem is ongoing, gets worse as time goes on, and it makes the solution harder.

Gold_Supermarket1956 · 2024-07-11T20:19:33+00:00

Lol women view men as walking atms

Bewpadewp · 2024-07-11T17:36:27+00:00

Ah, more of the typical "Grumble grumble men bad" stuff, eh?

nightcall379 · 2024-07-11T17:14:44+00:00

NOT understanding WHY, they have so many problems with them

So why do they have so many problems with them?

Ok-Dust-4156 · 2024-07-11T19:07:33+00:00

And you see men as some sort of group, not as people.

odd_cloud · 2024-07-12T01:42:46+00:00

Okay, you make a lot of assumptions not supported by anything. Your post states or implies:

men here don’t see women as people. What makes you believe so? Do you suppose any man who has difficulties with women doesn’t seem them as people? What behavior do you count as not seeing women as people? How does seeing women as people resolve the problems men have with women?
if men stopped seeing women as non-people, they’d have no problems with women. What makes you believe men who don’t see women as people don’t have success with them? What makes you think seeing women as people leads to success?
writing down your feelings and showing them to someone will help to resolve problems. How? Do you have an example?
therapy would help. How? Do you have an example? Like do you know a friend who went to therapy and became very popular?

Also, have you ever talked to a man about dating?

BackToTheMoon_ · 2024-07-11T17:46:19+00:00

men struggling to get women to see them as people, build relationships and engage in intimacy with

Solution?

“Just go to therapy”

rag3light · 2024-07-11T18:04:36+00:00

Stupid post that ignores how society functions.

Women are trophies to win under patriarchy.

And despite all the chatter, under feminism the same dudes who were on top before are still on top now: men who adhere to hegemonic masculinity the best.

And if anything it has gotten even worse and more winner take all.

Women are still irrationally hypergamous and take full advantage of all the social privilege that flows from this dictate of patriarchy i.e. being passive and not being held accountable for anything.

Women are also very much hive minded when it comes to many judgments regarding most anything and are extremely risk averse. Hence the primary arm enforcing patriarchy today is the collective known as Women.

Classism racism etc. Are enforced by the choices of women primarily.

It's nice you can think and imagine a world where women and people generally are complex. They ain't. Go read some research.

wtknight · 2024-07-11T17:45:22+00:00

I don’t find it problematic at all that lower men judge lower value women for having casual sex with men out of their league as “people” because of the choices that they made.

Men’s issues are more about self-improvement than what they think about women. Plenty of high-value men who look good, have charming personalities and have lots of sex think of women as just objects.

moonroots64 · 2024-07-11T18:19:36+00:00

And women would be better off not seeing men as some sort of paycheck and work mule.

mayhemvvithmercy · 2024-07-11T17:53:46+00:00

people in general could resolve many of their social issues by coming to the terms with the fact that acceptance is not guaranteed, and that rejection is no longer this soul-shattering, world-destroying event once you stop basing your entire identity around how others may or may not perceive you

Vlad_The_Great_2 · 2024-07-11T21:14:55+00:00

You are judging men as a group and are making sweeping generalizations right now. The majority of men do think women are people. You would never truly understand a straight man’s struggle in trying to date women because you never lived this life. The same way I can sympathize but I cannot empathize or truly understand women specific issues because I never lived that life.

John_Oakman · 2024-07-11T22:26:50+00:00

As genuine moral virtues are wholly independent of worldly/material results, either this produce continued lack of success or success based on the lie of ulterior motives. In the case of the latter it is still an undesirable result for women.

Also, in the context of this subreddit the based & redpilled real men of the manosphere are probably on average more successfully sexually than the males who are bluepilled/male-feminist/subscribers of moral virtues, but since worldly outcomes are irrelevant as far as genuine moral virtues is concerned...

MistyMaisel · 2024-07-11T18:25:06+00:00

I'm not gonna debate you on a lot of this because I think the big point we need to push back on:

JUST GO TO THERAPY.

This isn't entirely terrible advice, but it's not good enough because we know most therapeutic practices will not serve men and male behavioral tendencies. The system is flawed for them. The only time this sort of advice can make sense is if the man in question is trying to dump extreme trauma/problems on untrained people in his life (think girlfriend, parents, friends).

What should be getting said in place of this is something more like:

You need to seek out a therapist who is trained to work with men in male ways and advocate for yourself consistently within therapy asking for things like walking or doing yardwork while talking so that you're side by side or focusing on solutions, and focusing on learning how to use the language of therapy prior to any deep dives.
You should strongly consider seeking out a coach/mentor figure similar to that which is found in sports, but not necessarily through sports. Coaching tends to yield better results for men.
You should strongly consider all-male or similarly struggling people's group therapy again, focusing more on active processes over more chatter.
Join an active group which actively does active things regularly and is predominantly male.

throwaway164_3 · 2024-07-11T19:23:16+00:00

Therapy is a huge scam.

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bluestjuice · 2024-07-11T18:48:25+00:00

I think that probably a lot of misapprehensions about therapy would be drastically mitigated if it were more universally accessible to people. The fact is there are so many barriers to robust mental health care that it’s not surprising that so many people have had minimal (and often bad) experiences with it that left them disinclined to consider it as a worthwhile tool. Hell, I’m pretty damn pro-therapy and even I don’t even have a therapist currently because I haven’t summoned up the chutzpah to throw myself back into the process of trying to locate the magical trifecta of therapists whose approach is suitable for me, is included in my insurance plan, and has scheduling availability that makes it possible to fit into my complicatedly-scheduled calendar.

As it is, therapy is badly understood and carries a lot of stigma, especially for men — both the stigma of ‘having a psychological problem’ and the stigma of ‘needing another professional’s help.’ Pharmaceutical treatment is another frequently-stigmatized aspect of mental healthcare that many people want strongly to avoid. There are many different types of treatment and many modalities of therapy out there, but most of the time people’s opinions are formed through generalities or a minimal number of personal experiences (like a lot of things).

The other thing about therapy that I think is poorly understood is that it isn’t a very transactional process. I have absolutely had therapists where I came in, talked about my life for an hour, and left feeling like I had had a good vent session with a friend but not like I had made headway on resolving anything. Some people really do need a professional just to hear them out, and the process of talking through their thoughts and feelings helps them organize those things and figure out what they are actually wanting and how to change. But other people have different issues and may need other things, such as to build specific coping skills and alternate strategies, help identifying thought patterns that are holding them back, or any number of things. A therapist doesn’t really provide better mental health directly, in the same way that a trainer doesn’t directly provide gains in the gym. Their role is to use their expertise to identify areas where you specifically are struggling and help you devise solutions to those struggle areas, while you are the one that ends up showing up and doing the real work of lifting.

ej_theraider · 2024-07-11T19:12:29+00:00

So I’ll indulge you here. Let’s assume that men DO view women as an achievement or trophy. Are you saying that if this changes then all of a sudden they’ll be able to get companionship. Because if not, then it is LESS THAN useless to tell us to “change your views”.

Imagine if a bum went around thinking “Oh wow this bridge really is a nice place to shack under, or wow this moldy dumpster food sure is something.. life is great 🥲”. He’s still a bum at the end of the day.

Lemme tell you the difference between your thinking as a woman (I presume) and our thinking as men. We don’t want to FEEL better about a crappy situation, we want it to BE better.

Zealousideal_Test_95 · 2024-07-11T23:29:36+00:00

About 16 years ago I was involved in a situation where I was a first responder to an explosion at a local market. Once I got there most of the victims I treated were kids, who didn't last very long after I began trying to treat them.

I've been going to therapy since then (and as you might expect, I've been dateless as the incident is something I can't go a day without reliving, and has drained a solid amount of my humanity out of me.) without any improvement to show for it.

Therapy doesn't do shit.

Grenadier23 · 2024-07-12T04:40:15+00:00

I do judge them as people. I judge them heavily as people.

Upset_Material_3372 · 2024-07-12T06:32:04+00:00

I think if women didn’t view themselves as achievements needing to be achieved by men then this wouldn’t happen at all.

Dayman115 · 2024-07-12T16:33:25+00:00

What is your advice for guys who view women as equals, goes to therapy, but still struggles to get women interested?

abaxeron · 2024-07-13T15:55:27+00:00

Many (if not most) posts here pointing out the problems with women, are made by men who themselves have no problems with women at all - i.e. they are either happily single, happily married, happily divorced, or in a happy civil union. People can discuss topics regardless of their own circumstances, and it's even more interesting this way. Some time ago I made a post about redistribution of wealth through retirement benefits between people of various sexes and family statuses in the US, despite neither being a US resident, nor a retiree.

https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18baa1w/science_study_marriage_and_the_economic_wellbeing/

On the other hand, you overreacting to people discussing topics that may or may not be relevant to their lives, and calling them UNHINGED in uppercase, obviously characterizes you as a person well-balanced and emotionally stable and mature enough to judge others.

Additionally, since headline and the body of the post are quite disconnected from each other, it's not entirely clear which part we're supposed to debate; I'll bite at both. Everything above was about the post's body, now to the headline.

"If women saw men as people and not as useless flaps of flesh at the end of the penis, oh and went to a finishing school, none of them would ever have any problems with men." - This is how insane you sound.

Finally:

"adhering to the made-up culture war rhetoric people argue about while the planet is literally on fire."

Women are the majority of voters. If they believe that the solution to "planet on fire" exists, all they need is to stop voting against said solution.

tiddermacss · 2024-07-11T17:54:59+00:00

same applies to women.. if they only stop seeing men as means to an end and sign prenups and accept equal share of responsibility.. mens issues with women will automatically resolve

Time_Faithlessness27 · 2024-07-11T21:01:57+00:00

This sub is where all the incels bond. Let them destroy themselves. It’s Darwinian; survival of the fittest. All of these guys are dooming themselves. Not all men, but the majority of the men on this sub are doing the human race a favor by wallowing in their self pity and not contributing to the gene pool.

rag3light · 2024-07-11T18:05:56+00:00

Double dumb dumb bonus for the recommendation to prove how weird correct truthful thinking is:

Tell a random socially programmed idiot your thoughts and listen to their canned programmed refutations/gaslights....see ur wrong after all!

Tool

his_purple_majesty · 2024-07-11T20:05:51+00:00

You say this but then guys who say the most generic, transparently fake, prefabricated shit have lots of success.

Or like, you know what I say to "people" when I message them? "Hey"

But this is the best way to not get a response OLD. Instead you have to participate in some forced sitcom banter or whatever.

bellamy002 · 2024-07-11T17:49:13+00:00

Yeah, I wish world hunger would end

Anyway no, that won't solve anything

sprckets21 · 2024-07-11T18:36:03+00:00

Guys would chill out when they consider even when women were greatly oppressed, never in civilization anywhere did women casually get with average guys. Girls are usually trying to date around with guys that are desirable or have something to offer.

Guys want to complain, omg it’s the dating apps and social media. Sure, if you don’t want to put any effort to advertise yourself it’s going to be harder. The game has changed some, but still same result, desirable guys control the dating market.

It’s never been easy to date around as a guy with cute girls. Make yourself desirable and stop hating on women for something they’ve never done ever, lusted after average guys.

berichorbeburied · 2024-07-11T17:40:03+00:00

I only have a “problem” with my bestfriend.

I don’t think about women as a group.

And if I did I would only be thinking about sexually attractive women that I wanted.

So maybe that’s your problem.

Maybe you think men are talking about women collectively.

Idk because I’m not going to speak for all men.

But for me personally I’ve never thought of women as a whole genre.

Like I don’t think about every single women. I don’t think about every type of women. And I don’t think about every age of women.

Whenever I complain about women. It’s most likely because it relates to the problems I’m having with my bestfriend.

Or it’s problems I’m having with women that I’m having sex with or flirting with that I’m trying to understand so that I can understand how to fix these issues with my bestfriend or to understand how to avoid these issues.

So essentially maybe that’s also something men do. Complain about women they don’t care about because it applies to women they do care about.

I’m not speaking for all men. Just me. And in the process maybe giving a counterpoint. To why men may or may not complain about women in a generalistic/collective way

TRTGymBroX · 2024-07-11T18:07:01+00:00

It’s very painful to have to look in the mirror and admit that maybe the majority of your problems are caused by the person staring back at you.

But it is also very empowering because if they are caused by you, they can also be solved by you. So that’s the good news! The bad news is: it requires quite a lot of work to undo a lifetime of distorted thought patterns, self defeating beliefs and attitudes towards yourself, women and the world.

Believe it or not, despite my usual snarkiness, I feel a lot of compassion for men who struggle. But the biggest failure of well meaning people who are trying to help is that….they are TRYING to help. The more you try to help someone, the more they dig in their heels and will resist.

The desire to change and discard your negative thinking must come intrinsically. It must be motivated by the person themselves, not by outside forces. If a person doesn’t want help and is not seeking help, they cannot be helped. My experience has taught me that the vast majority of men who struggle, absolutely do not want to be helped.

SillyMushroomTip · 2024-07-11T21:18:05+00:00

This nonsense has been pushed since I was a teenager in 2000s. "Be in touch with your emotions" "treat her like friend" "just be confident" "just be yourself" "treat her like a person" All I got out of that was more confusion, mental frustration, and self defeat because no matter how much I internalized and self reflected I wasnt being successful with women. Women simply do not like Men that are weak, overtly honest, and too much a good guy.

Treat her like a celebrity she will treat you like a fan

SentientReality · 2024-07-11T22:28:51+00:00

most men on here / men as a group

complaining about women as a group / viewed them as people

Is this supposed to be satirical? OP directly, explicitly, and firmly lumps men into a group category and overgeneralizes them as a group unit, and then immediately calls for men to not think of women as a group. I'm having difficultly believing if this is authentic.

despisedlove2 · 2024-07-11T20:37:29+00:00

Simplistic. If men didn't have sex drives that we do, not one would be discussing women at all. Who wants the nastiness and craziness in their lives?

Wodanaz-Frisii · 2024-07-11T17:23:58+00:00

Yup, I agree.

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