Phrases such as “Men age like wine, women age like milk” and “The Wall” are nonsensical.

63daddy · 2024-02-20T21:09:16+00:00

Generalizations are not blanket statements. Nobody is claiming this generalization is true for Everyone and this general statement doesn’t infer anything magically happens at age 30.

Women overall have a higher peak in young adulthood (more so than men) and less later in life. Men and women simply have different curves in their attractiveness to the opposite sex and it’s not nonsensical. It makes sense from both a biological/evolutionary perspective and is consistent with hypergamy.

ICU8a8 · 2024-02-21T00:43:51+00:00

I don’t think they are nonsensical, but I do think they are wild exaggerations. On the whole, men do age better. Of course, there are many men who do not age well. This is just a generalization.

Citing Salma Hayek as an example of how well some women age is what’s nonsensical. You can’t extrapolate a single person’s extraordinary appearance to the whole sex.

SamuraiGoblin · 2024-02-20T23:25:03+00:00

You are missing the key ingredient: Fertility.

In order to address this issue, we have to create two categories. People who are dating with the goal of getting married and having children, and those that don't want kids.

For the former category, "The Wall" is very real for women. Objectively speaking, why would a marriage/family-minded man want to date a woman in her 30s? A woman's fertility begins dropping at the age of 32 and has a sharp decrease. By 40, her fertility is a fraction of what it was, and the likelihood of problems with the pregnancy or the foetus is much larger. It takes many years for a couple to meet, date, move in together, get engaged, get married, have their first kid, and deal with a screaming baby. If a man meets a women in her 30s for dating, she might already be in her 40s by the time they have their second kid.

Men's fertility also declines, but it starts dropping much later and decreases less sharply. So partner's fertility is much less of a concern for women when dating. So men have a much softer, more distant wall.

For the latter category, then I totally agree with you, the "Women's Wall" completely disappears in that situation. Of course a woman's value isn't tied to her fertility. But from the perspective of a man looking to start a family, it is one of the most important aspects.

And I agree that the phrase "women age like milk" is disrespectful, but it is a good analogy that captures the problem that women face. It's not just men that pressure a woman to get married before 30, it's the whole of society including other women, because they understand the biological reality of the situation.

gntlbastard · 2024-02-20T21:35:57+00:00

Child birth more than anything takes its toll on making women in general age like shit. Are there exceptions yes. But generally women age like shit after they pop out a few kids.

PerfumedPornoVampire · 2024-02-20T21:23:02+00:00

My unbiased opinion is that men and women hit the proverbial “Wall” at exactly the same time. It’s 50. You can take a look at tons of famous people who have been photographed their entire lives, both male and female, and see that it’s around age 50 where they stop looking like themselves and start looking like an old person. Of course a minuscule amount of the population will either age extremely well or be able to purchase surgeries/medications that slow their aging, but those people are incredibly rare, even among the ultra wealthy.

So yes, I do believe the Wall is real for both genders. It does amaze me that men really believe they always “age like fine wine”. Give me a break, that would be highly unusual.

GojosLowerHalf2 · 2024-02-20T21:33:53+00:00

Exactly. People in general dont "age like wine" and the wall is real but for everyone.

For the most part I've stopped even trying to debate this with the men here lol. If they want to convince themselves attractive young women just sit around fawning over old farts let them. They just gonna have to learn the hard way honestly.

Egoistchan · 2024-02-20T21:15:00+00:00

Most men hit the wall pre-birth. The obsession with the basic fact that women get older is a thin veneer for the fact at least 60% of men look like feet and have to get good jobs and skills to compensate for it.

biscuitcatapult · 2024-02-20T21:27:22+00:00

This again? I’ll just copy and paste.

“The wall” is simply a term that is used to describe when someone’s appearance rapidly catches up to their age. This can affect men or women, but doesn’t mean it is inevitable for anyone.

The term is used for women more often than men because women often do more work/artificial things to hide the aging process, including wearing makeup, getting work done, and dying their hair.

Eventually, the woman stops/slows the maintenance of that work, and then her appearance catches up to her age. If she does it slowly, it seems more natural, but if it happens suddenly (sometimes due to a life event), people call it “the wall.”

So “the wall” exists, but it is not inevitable. It can happen to anyone, and it can happen at any age.

Spare-Estimate5596 · 2024-02-20T22:46:19+00:00

Idk why the wall is 30. It should be 40. But most women look better at 23 then they do at 30. As for men they dont look better sure. But they typically have more going for them in other ways. Such as a good job, a nice car, his own place. Which is something most women want.

If its not what women want why dont you see older single women dating and marrying men who at 22-23? The reverse is true for men.

harmonica2 · 2024-02-20T21:23:32+00:00

It seems more women prefer men that are older or same age, whereas more men prefer same age or younger. So would that contribute to the saying being true?

MidoriEgg · 2024-02-20T21:34:22+00:00

Men are definitely allowed to show more visible signs of ageing without being judged for it, but certain men on the internet definitely cling to this idea that ‘the wall’ is some sort of divine punishment that will destroy the looks and lives of all the hot women that rejected them in their twenties. Sure, for most women your mid twenties is the time you’ll be considered most attractive, but unless the only thing you have going for you is your looks/youth, life of women 30+ is still fun/exciting and my older friends still get plenty of attention and are considered attractive.

operajunkie · 2024-02-20T22:04:55+00:00

The wall as red pillers describe it is a revenge fantasy. A lot of men clearly resent the power and advantages they feel women have in the dating market and long for the day women will lose that power and men will gain it. The reality is everyone ages differently, giant age gaps are not the norm, and every woman with a pulse will still have at least some options for a partner. There’s nuance in all of this that often gets ignored in favor of men being able to say “enjoy your cats”

JSears90210 · 2024-02-20T22:19:43+00:00

Salma Hayek, Heidi Klum, Kate Beckinsale, Jennifer Lopez, Jennifer Aniston, etc. are like the attractiveness parrallel to Tom Brady or Lebron James. They start out with great genetics and spend 6 to 7 figures a year to keep themselves in amazing shape. Elite dieticians, trainers, plastic surgeons, dermatologists, and every thing else under the sun. Their job is to stay attractive. Comparing them to the average women their age is like the average 46 year old guy getting off the couch and saying he could play in the NFL like Brady.

VasiliyZaitzev · 2024-02-21T03:05:44+00:00

I refuse to believe that the red pill would deem Selma Hayek unattractive because she’s 57.

She's very attractive...for 57. So is Liz Hurley. So what? Given a choice bw them and a 22 year old of similar hotness, we'd all bang the 22 year old.

As for men, “aging like wine” in what way can they possibly believe that as a blanket truth? Redpillers themselves are the ones who say men need to work at self improvement. If men naturally aged like wine there’d be no reason to work at self improvement because that self improvement would come on its own.

So you start out by taking an apex example (Salma Hayek; most women at 57 don't look like her) and then end with a generalization.

Saying "Men age like wine" or "Men age like Sean Connery...and women also age like Sean Connery" is more aspirational.

A man can age well if he chooses to and does the work...so he can age like wine if he chooses not to age like cigs, heroin and booze. Those things, along with women his own age, will age the F&CK out of a guy.

You seem to be arguing to argue.

his_purple_majesty · 2024-02-20T22:25:42+00:00

The reason the wall is a thing for women and not men isn't that men age like fine wine; it's that 99% of young men don't have the SMV that like 50% of young women do. It's also about male psychology. I don't think women realize how much men just love attractive women. It's not just about wanting to fuck them. Men love attractive women like Taylor Swift fans love Taylor Swift or Christians love Jesus. And then when they hit the wall it's like "Oh, they're just some fucking person" and you just don't give a shit at all. It's almost like post nut clarity except external. It would be like seeing Jesus take a shit and just immediately realizing he's not the son of God. That's the wall.

Geselshaft · 2024-02-20T21:18:14+00:00

Ironically proving the evil black pill.

Genetics are what matters. Those with good genetics age well, those with crap genetics age poor.

Blame drugs and booze and casual sex all you want, your aging is exclusively caused by genetics.

“Life style” means nothing and is just moral nonsense and karmic thinking.

AreOut · 2024-02-20T21:10:49+00:00

You are missing the point. There are celebrities who would've married Selma Hayek if she was 27 or 37 but not if she is 57. Hope it's a bit more clear to you.

VoltairesBarista · 2024-02-20T21:12:25+00:00

It’s true in the sense that beauty standards are much higher for women thus they become less attractive with age sooner than men.

pop442 · 2024-02-20T21:33:06+00:00

The wall to women is kind of like height for men.

It's not that older women and shorter men can't get love and affection. Many of them receive it all the time.

But, on a general level, younger women are going to have significantly more dating options and opportunities involving their looks than older women on average in the same vein that taller men are going to have significantly more dating options and opportunities where their height is an advantage more than shorter men.

So, yes...A woman doesn't automatically become "undesirable" because she's 35. That's true.

But she's not going to receive the same amount of attention, dating options, or pull with desirable men like a 25 year old woman. Just like how a 5'7 man won't have the same attention, dating options, or pull with desirable women like a 6'4 man.

There's truth to the "wall" but it's far more nuanced than what people say.

Comprehensive-Bed35 · 2024-02-20T22:45:15+00:00

Ahhh the obsession with exceptions to the rule, rather than accepting that the majority is speaking the truth.

I highly disagree this as ‘nonsensical,’ as the evidence shows otherwise. I guess I’m just a big fan of evidence and data, and not a big fan of anecdotal personal experience.

It’s much easier for an older man to find a lover than for an older woman, most of the time, for most people.

But, this becomes more true the older we’re talking. 30’s? Maybe a little. 40’s? Damn right. 50’s? FOR SURE it’s easier for a successful 50 year old man to find a lover, compared to a 50 year old mom.

I have seen an exception here and there, especially from older women that never had kids. But it’s so fucking rare.

There’s an ‘alternative model’ that goes by the name of ‘Malice Mcmunn,’ that is 51. She’s definitely still hot bodied—especially for her age! However, she can get laid all day long with undesirables, but can she find a guy that she ACTUALLY WANTS to be her committed boyfriend?? NO! She cannot. The men she finds attractive do NOT want to be with a 51 year old woman.

It is what it is. Welcome to planet earth.

Safinated · 2024-02-20T21:15:05+00:00

They make sense if you’re trying to make yourself feel better

peteypete78 · 2024-02-20T21:41:10+00:00

Why do people keep missing the context of these things?

No man who wants a family is going to marry Selma no matter how hot she is.

The wall is about a woman's ability to attract the level of man she wants, at <25 she has in general far more options than at >35.

In general women start to lose their natural youthfulness around 30 (and no amount of looking after yourself negates this) as signs of aging start to appear (though they do a good job covering them with makeup, filler etc).

Women in general aren't interested in that natural youthful look in men, they like the guy who has looked after himself enough that he isn't fat and has some style and by his 30's he is starting to make his career work for him and has the confidence to go get what he wants.

Both sexes need to put the work in to become and remain attractive. Time isn’t kind to anyone

Yes and no, they both need to put the work in but women suffer more from ageing as men put more emphasis on youthfulness.

Environmental_Day558 · 2024-02-20T21:49:39+00:00

I don't think that refers to physical looks only, since most men start balding and gaining a lil fat around the belt before 40. It's more so referring to relationship value. Looking at it from an RP perspective, women are valued for their youth and fertility, and for the most part procreation for a woman is highly improbable post 40. Men are valued for what they can provide, which conversely gets better as time goes on as men make more money later in life. Now in my personal opinion both men and women have a wall, if we look at the data from ok cupid studies taken a while back then we see that there is a point where desirability goes does down to below average for both. Men just peak and fall off around 5 years later than women. So both are milk with different expirations.

Financial_Chemist286 · 2024-02-20T23:39:52+00:00

What a woman wants is commitment. The quality of those commitments degrade over time as a woman’s sexual market value decreases. A men theta of decreases seem to be insulated by what women value in men like stability and security. Most men value women not based on how successful she is and becoming a huge celebrity

NeutrinoParticle · 2024-02-21T09:30:29+00:00

The wall is nonsense? Can a 57 year old woman get pregnant and give birth?
Look up this new thing called 'menopause' it's quite interesting...
This image may help: https://themillsinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/estrogen-testosterone.jpg

Kentaro009 · 2024-02-20T21:57:05+00:00

A lot of people don't understand what the wall is.

It is not merely about looks (although that is part of it)

It is about your sexual market place value.

This falls off a cliff for women as they get older but not really for men because men and women seek different things in a mate.

A man making $400,000 a year at 50 is going to be far more desirable to women than a 50 year old woman making $400,000 a year would be to men.

It really is interesting how many people on this sub will have very strong opinions about various topics and then reveal they don't even understand the basic definitions of what they are discussing.

SIeight_of_Hand · 2024-02-20T21:50:14+00:00

Most girls can be very attractive in their 30's. If she takes care, stays away from ssri's and alcohol, being pleasant non-combative.

boom-wham-slam · 2024-02-20T21:27:27+00:00

Lmfao. Another one of these. 🙄 And water is not wet too right? Smh.

jaybalvinman · 2024-02-20T21:19:42+00:00

They say that to make women feel bad because they are jealous of them having options. All humans age the same. The facial structure changes, the skin changes, there are body changes.

Men age worst because they don't spend their entire lives making sure they moisturize, go to the dermatologist, use sunscreen and retinol. They don't care if they get fat. They do care how women look though. Not all men obviously.

Also men like young women. But not for good reasons. This is why they talk down to women in general. Whole purpose is to make them feel bad as a whole. Of course, not all men think this way.

Sorcha16 · 2024-02-20T22:45:34+00:00

Aged milk gets turned into cheese. Yes it can also sour but so can wine

KayRay1994 · 2024-02-20T21:50:45+00:00

In all fairness, Selma Hayek is a rare case.

That being said, the wall is def overplayed and so is “men age like wine, women age like milk” - while both do have some truth, its important to recognize that they’re also exaggerated.

Let’s break this apart “the wall” is a concept based on 2 things

1) childbirth - as women age their ability to have children lessens, that’s just a fact

2) what most men value in women (ie. youth) - of course, there are exceptions to this rule and a woman can still be beautiful as she ages, but even if she looks beautiful as she ages, the kind of beauty differs from the youthful beauty found in young women. Ie. a woman in her 30s, even 40s can have an established, self-realized beauty, which is beautiful and is something i personally am growing to appreciate more as i age, but also, most men tend to look at youthful beauty first.

“men age like fine wine, women age like milk” - I think this is just, flat out, an observation about what women tend to value in men vs what men value in women. Men, from a physical level, age the same way as women, but what differs is what most women tend to find attractive bs most men. Of course, needless to say, if you don’t take care of yourself, you will age horribly and not be attractive - that being said, women tend to value confidence, self-assuredness, being established (whatever that may mean), etc - and generally speaking, that ‘self realized’ beauty mentioned above tends to benefit men more than it does women because that’s what more women find attractive.

So while these statements are exaggerated and aren’t a given rule, they are based on a reality.

AdEffective7894s · 2024-02-20T21:30:19+00:00

The wall exists. But not the way redpill conceptualised it.

It exists only for women who are insecure and/or want children.

And it is not something that happens to them but rather something they chose.

Redpillers see this and confuse change in priorities with scarcity

Bluepillers see this and confuse change in priorities with virtue

rma5690 · 2024-02-20T21:16:38+00:00

"Women age like fine wine". Wierd how this adage was able to fly by for decades without the need for a good old fashioned deboonking, but all the same thanks for clarifying that um, akshually "the wall" isn't really a law of nature.

We really can't have fucking anything huh?

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PixelizedPlayer · 2024-02-20T21:51:52+00:00

Well regarding the ageing part not so much the wall part which isn't related to biology.

Firstly, 80% of all immune diseases affect women which typical onset around 30ies onwards, this makes sense since biologically women are expected to already have had a child long before 30 where they usually have a stronger immune system than men in order to protect a newborn. But after a certain age that strong immune system isn't needed anymore and things go a bit haywire for a lot of women.

In terms of things like wrinkles, bone density and muscle wasting... women have less collagen in their skin, and their skin is thinner than men's so their skin will sag and wrinkle more and they have lower muscle mass so their figure will decline sooner than men's as they age as well.

Women also typically develop cellulite and not men which again affects your figure.

However women can counteract a lot of this artificially with makeup, botox, skin care products etc in order to create the illusion of looking youthful. But theres not much you can do about autoimmune disease or cellulite.

Mental decline also affects women more as they age like dementia.

On the subject of autoimmune disease, if you have one, that will mean you have some form of systemic inflammation which will lead to faster aging and of course a drop in quality of life, which seems particularly cruel given women live longer than men so they end up suffering with it longer.

The main things men have to be concerned about as they age is their heart health, and hair loss. Both are relatively easy to take of in comparison to what women have to deal with. Certain forms of hairloss make men look like they age like milk, but transplants and different hairstyles can get around it. Hair loss is actually a complete mystery for why it happens so young in men when the rest of the body doesn't exhibit rapid aging processes.

tl;dr women's biological strategy is to look as beautiful and perfect as possible during childbearing years and be in as perfect health as possible, but then after that point it declines fast. Men's biological strategy is the long game so has less things going wrong or aging poorly, but men undergo more stress to build a life thus puts strain on our heart.

prizefighterstudent · 2024-02-21T02:28:28+00:00

Wall doesn't exist for women if they take care of themselves and adjust their expectations. It's the biggest lie that's been disseminated through centuries of male domination, the Red Pill practically preaches it as Gospel. We're literally learning these things on the fly because we've never been able to test them out.

The commonality between mid-35-year-old women with nasty attitudes and any run-of-the-mill 35-year-old single male is that those cats WILL hit the wall. The latter is way more populous than the former, though.

Azweik · 2024-02-21T09:10:21+00:00

I think just that men take alcohol, drugs and cigarettes better than women, also sun exposure. Add that men skin is thicker.

So people that have a hard party lifestyle in their 20s, men can keep up their looks longer than women

Freevoulous · 2024-02-21T12:04:38+00:00

You miss two key components:

Pregnancy usually happens around 30, and is the leading contributor to women hitting the Wall, as it skyrockets fat gain, sagging and stretch marks.
men have literally thicker skin, more sheer muscle mass, and testosterone to help fitness recovery, and thus their bodies fair better in the middle age.

The main way human bodies look worse with age is that they sag: skin wrinkles and hangs, fat pulls it down, and loss of muscle prevents the body from keeping a more rigid form.

By a quirk of biology, men are more resistant to all of those effects.

Look at same age couples in their late 30s or 40s. Even if the man and the woman lead the same lifestyle, almost universally men have fewer wrinkles, look less fat (even if they are objectively fatter), and not only look but ARE physically more fit/athletic.

Add to this that couples are usually not looks matched: women date up, men date opportunistically, so it is usually the case that the wife starts fatter and uglier than her husband. This deepens the perception that women age worse.

srqfla · 2024-02-21T12:52:50+00:00

Past the age of 30.... men are not handsome or ugly.

They are rich or poor

kalecikkarasi · 2024-02-21T12:56:18+00:00

a) Yes if you take care of yourself you age better, but an average woman is not Selma Hayek.

b) There is a fertility age range and women have a much smaller window. If a man wants a child, +30 women aren't datable for him practically.

c) Women tend to date older guys. Men’s dating pool expands as they get older (to a certain extent).

These are why time treats men and women differently. Sure there is no real wall and you do not lose your appeal in one day on your 30th birthday, but I can guarantee you’ll definitely become less attractive compared to men as time goes by. I'm 30 and I've turned down at least three women due to their age.

IlIIlIIIlIl · 2024-02-21T13:18:11+00:00

Menopause is a biological inevitability. Do you deny science?

obviousredflag · 2024-02-21T13:44:08+00:00

I think what you missed is: men can look good FOR looking old. Women look good when looking YOUNG while being old. Add to that makeup and botox/other beauty augmentations, and you can hardly argue that those beautiful old women are "aging" like fine wine. What they would look like naturally is artificially removed or covered up.

badgersonice · 2024-02-21T13:51:17+00:00

Phrases such as “Men age like wine, women age like milk”

… a phrase brought to you by dumdums who forgot where cheese comes from.

OtPayOkerSmay · 2024-02-21T14:42:55+00:00

Looks aside; men generally value youth and fertility in women, where women generally value maturity and experience in men.

nonplussedminus · 2024-02-21T16:12:00+00:00

Just compare how many men consume mom porn Vs how many women consume dad porn

Mr_Chad_Thunderpenis · 2024-02-21T17:55:24+00:00

Physically noone ages like fine wine obviously. Everyone peaks in their 20s, not at 30+, unless we're talking about people who got significant amount of plastic surgery or were obese and lost a lot of weight.

When someone says "men age like fine wine", it's about: a)the larger fertility window they have compared to women, and b)the fact that status and money generally rises with age and that women care way more about status and money in a guy(when it comes to LTR/marriage), while men care little about a woman's status and money. That's all there is to it.

MattPayneWrestler · 2024-02-22T02:54:11+00:00

Basically, We both get more rugged skin as we age, but ruggedness is considered masculine while softness is feminine. So men can still look good rugged.

Suspicious-Tax-5947 · 2024-02-22T12:07:00+00:00

Yeah, I think this is true. The effect of the wall for women is exaggerated, I think.

A lot of women hit the wall because they stuff their faces with dessert and baked goods, live sedentary lifestyles, and get fat. Women don't really work out as much as guys do, and when they do work out, they do it in less productive ways.

It really amazes me when single women struggle with their weight. If a single woman is 50+ pounds overweight, the #1 thing she could do to raise her stock would be to lose it. It is not that difficult, and doesn't require a crazy lifestyle to not be obese, but many women just can't be bothered.

Title	Phrases such as “Men age like wine, women age like milk” and “The Wall” are nonsensical.
Author	Bastardpelican
Upvotes	3
Comments	336
Date	February 20, 2024 9:01 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1avsrd1/phrases_such_as_men_age_like_wine_women_age_like/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/phrases-such-as-men-age-like-wine-women-age-like.1245953 https://theredarchive.com/post/1245953

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