The idea that women are "sharing" a minority of men is vehemently rejected outright

krmaml · 2020-06-22T16:37:08+00:00

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Smoogs2 · 2020-06-22T20:08:24+00:00

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TechnicalMight0 · 2020-06-22T18:57:07+00:00

I think many don't know because they think they have a very unique "type" and think other women have very diverse tastes. Then there's the group that denies it because they don't want it to be true, just like they make up excuses for some guy they're fucking who's obviously cheating on her or using her for sex.

Mobrowncheeks · 2020-06-22T17:04:39+00:00

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ImbeddedElite · 2020-06-22T17:21:21+00:00

I disagree that they reject it.

The women know, at least on a subconscious level, that they are sharing men. But they will gaslight to serve their imperatives

Women cant have the majority of men (the 80%) knowing that the women are having lots of raunchy casual sex with men who are not them. They would stop orbiting, which means no more free attention through texts, no more finessing free meals and no more favours such as helping them move.

If women were completely honest about it, these men (80%) would also drop out completely, which means that 80% of women go without a husband at the end of the CC.

So they lie and misdirect these men to keep them on-the-shelf

nevalutionary · 2020-06-22T17:07:32+00:00

I had this conversation with a woman and her husband recently. She rejected the premise as well. What it seemed is that her idea of "sharing" was sharing a conventional relationship, which for her would probably be better interpreted as sharing emotionally.

She and her husband also insisted women don't know they're sharing, which is often false in my experience, and again speaks to the relationship/emotional paradigm.

I insisted many women are sharing sexually and are fully aware of it, whether the man is in a primary relationship or not (side-pieces and soft harems). They resisted this too, either because of inexperience, or more likely to cover their own asses.

I think what it comes down to is that women are resistant to the idea for the same reason they're secretive about their sexuality — to avoid shaming and rejection. The secret sex society is... a secret. It's only recently that data can expose what's really happening, and they don't have a defense for that other than their age-old defense: abject denial.

8ritt8ee · 2020-06-22T23:01:29+00:00

I think the problem is framing it as “women are increasingly sharing a smaller number of men” makes it sound like a change that women are assumed to be actively driving even though it could be something they are just passively affected by. In that chart, the percent of women in the 18-24 range with 2 or more sex partners has been pretty consistent across time regardless of what the men are doing. Even if the change is primarily because of women, it might be that more women are having fewer sex partners per year precisely because more of them DON’T want to share and therefore are avoiding casual sex, but the premise is often presented as though women prefer sharing. (In this sub, people sometimes practically make it sound like women not only prefer to share, but form conspiratorial alliances to access male resources.)

So, three reasons I think people might reject the premise, depending how it is presented, are a) as a response to it being framed in a way that suggests women are responsible for the change without being given any evidence that women are even behaving differently, b) out of disagreement over any motives being presumed as part of the premise, and c) that “sharing” makes it sound like the women are knowingly having ongoing relations with only one man at a time while he is simultaneously having multiple others, which is probably not the norm.

Seems to me it’s more likely that more men aren’t trying as much to get dates and other men are scooping up the extra and the women don’t even notice much of a difference.

Nodoxxintoxin · 2020-06-22T20:51:02+00:00

I think atlas is right, to be in a harem, or to share implies acceptance of ongoing, overlapping relationships. I would also add that there is a lot of pushback on this idea because it assumes that women’s fundamental values have changed. I don’t think they have.

When I look at those graphs, I see Women’s sexual behavior has been actually pretty consistent. A certain % engaging in a hookup or two when they are young, or having more strs ...until mid twenties, when sex with more than one partner a year drops significantly, and women become more monogamous, if fact even more monogamous now than in the past, not less.

Now are they all hooking up with the same 20% When in their teens and early twenties Yes. Do they know or care? Lol. No, they neither know or care in most cases. Did they know or care two decades ago? No.

So maybe how they find these guys has changed, maybe the guys themselves have changed. I think there is stronger case for that than women’s values have changed.

Creation_Soul · 2020-06-22T17:11:24+00:00

If a woman is looking for no-string-attached sex and she can have anyone, it wouldn't make any sense to choose someone other than the best looking man out there. Men would do the same if they could.

So yes, I think a small percentage of men get most of casual sex. But I also think that the numbers wouldn't look as bad if you wouldn't count men who led women on with the "promise" (or illusion) of commitment. If there was some sort of detector that said with 100% certainty that specific men are only looking for fun, I think the numbers of casual sex these men get would drop maybe by 50%.

2020-06-22T17:50:52+00:00

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theoracleofosiris · 2020-06-22T21:12:13+00:00

It’s all fun and games until it’s time to secure commitment.

sigma1932 · 2020-06-23T05:44:22+00:00

Everyone knows you multiply the woman's N-count by 3, and divide the man's N-count by 2, if not 3.... because she's lying to make herself appear less "sexually impulsive", while he's lying to make himself appear more sexually desirable.

medlabunicorn · 2020-06-22T21:02:31+00:00

I think there needs to be a distinction here between formal relationships and casual sex. Men, especially red-pill type men, seem to be a LOT more focused on the casual sex side of things and ‘getting a lot of women.’ I think most women will freely acknowledge that it’s way easier for women to have casual sex, including with men who are more physically attractive than themselves.

What gets talked about less, though, is that for a lot of women that just doesn’t count. I don’t know what the actual ratios are, but I think most women don’t actually enjoy ‘no strings’ sex, and most women will get a better orgasm at home with a dildo that with a strange guy, no matter how handsome he is. Furthermore, thanks to birth control, the guys who are ‘getting lots of women’ are not the guys who are siring the most children. While many children are still born outside of marriage, relatively few are born outside of relationships where the partners are at least temporarily committed to each other. On an evolutionary level, it’s the guys who are siring offspring who are the winners, regardless of how many casual sexual partners the mother of his children had before she picked him to sire her kids.

Edit: the data say ‘2 or more partners,’ but the written conclusion says ‘few or none.’ That is a dishonest conclusion based on the data presented.

woodenbiplane · 2020-06-22T23:24:03+00:00

The mass deletions without explanation in this thread make it impossible to follow the debate. It's all visible on ceddit and I don't follow the logic of why things were removed, they didn't seem over the line to me.

What' s going on here? These were removed by mods, not by users.

If there's a problem there should be an explanation. Maybe lock and sticky a mod comment. But right now, this just looks....slanted.

the_purring_jew · 2020-06-22T16:25:40+00:00

women dont consider it "sharing" unless you are "sharing" commitment. if i bang jack on Friday and my friend bangs him on Sunday we are not "sharing" him, because there is no relationship

2020-06-22T16:32:27+00:00

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Workaholiconew · 2020-06-22T20:02:28+00:00

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mederor · 2020-06-22T23:25:54+00:00

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Grave_Heresy · 2020-06-23T01:41:54+00:00

The issue that I see is one of moralizing. You see people rank sexual attraction in such as way that the more external a desired characteristic in a partner is the more the desirer is seen as shallow. Whereas, the more internal the desired characteristics are the more upright the desirer is seen as.

Women have been conditioned to believe that it is better to say that they prioritize personality over looks. So much so that they have convinced themselves that they are indeed not hypergamous.

The truth is that it doesn't matter because you can't moralize biology. They are what they are and can no more control it than a man can control his polygamous nature.

Willow-girl · 2020-06-22T18:03:42+00:00

Women are not willing to share men they actually care about -- the men they want to marry, or their actual husbands.

They don't mind sharing the guys who are merely ONS material because they're not planning to build a life with that guy so no worries, right? A possible exception might be married men ... I wouldn't knowingly sleep with a married man even if it was only a ONS. The Golden Rule applies ...

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2020-06-22T17:21:56+00:00

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Clearhill · 2020-06-22T20:13:17+00:00

I don't think these charts are evidence of much, frankly - they just show such a tiny amount of information.

First of all, it's self-reported. So it could just be that men are more honest about the amount of sex they're having than they used to be, because of changing ideas about masculinity and notches on bedposts, maybe. Meanwhile women are more liberated and so haven't seen a similar decrease - it could be that this has always been the pattern, but young men used to inflate their numbers more than they do now. Or economic reasons might mean that younger women are having sex with older men, whose numbers haven't tailed off anywhere near as much and look to be higher than the numbers for older women. Maybe young men can't afford to date as much as they used to, I know a lot more of them still live with their parents, which is bad for their love life practically, and also makes someone a less attractive partner because they seem less independent.

It could also be that 'hookup' culture has become a lot more common - so more young women aren't looking for long term relationships, but one-off sexual encounters, a system which probably strongly favours a small minority of attractive men. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by 'sharing'? I would take 'sharing' to mean more like polyamory, where they are in relationships where no one is expected to be faithful. I think that's still pretty rare.

Or the elephant in the room here is that the young women's 'excess' sexual partners might be other women.

Either way, I don't see why anyone would care - it's completely up to individuals who they want to have sex with.

DubsPackage · 2020-06-23T06:40:26+00:00

I find myself agreeing with Atlas alot these days.

Women do not consider themselves as "sharing" men because they do not claim to own them (emotionally or otherwise) but are simply perusing these men for their own benefits (sexual or otherwise.)

In nature the best males will breed, the weakest ones get driven away or killed.

So if the female of the species breeds with the strongest males, they are not "sharing" him, they are fulfilling their own imperative as mothers to produce the best quality young.

"Sharing" implies some kind of emotional or social connection, or that you want something from the guy other than his semen.

He's a strong guy, he's at the top of the food chain, and he proves that, lots of women will want his warm spunk, whether they actually want to be attached to him or not on a social or emotional level.

I think guys like to use "sharing" alot because they do consider relationships to be a kind of ownership mentality, especially considering the amount of energy that gets invested in these relationships.

Most guys are pretty base, they like sex, violence, food, competition, ripping the other dog's throat out, controlling females and being served by them.

So it is kind of male solipsism to say "women share men."

They don't share anything.

They get theirs (either a nut, a baby, or money.) There's no sharing involved. He can go get another girl pregnant, she doesn't care as long as provisioning gets met.

Women generally aren't as "attached" to people as men are.

Or to be more accurate women are more like hippies, "free love" and all of that.

If you want to be successful with women you have to think like that too, you can't start claiming ownership, you have to start thinking in a more pragmatic way about goals, and use less ego and more brains.

I think the end goal of most men is to procreate, to have children.

Whether you "own" the woman who has your children or not, they're still your children, she still has to be a mother and take care of them, and you still have to be a father and provide protection/provision as needed.

Protection is difficult under women's lib, how do you protect your child if the mother don't want to be with you? How do you be a father and guide that child?

All you can do is be a wallet, and she is just an incubator.

For better or worse that's where humanity is going.

SnowHatesWome · 2020-06-22T16:33:06+00:00

I think it’s mostly rejected because for the majority of people it isn’t the case and people base things off of anecdotal evidence. Women have always been hypergamous, but only the younger generation is dealing with women having access to the men they want from pretty much anywhere on the earth. I’d guess that this is a relatively younger sub (in terms of average age), so it’s more accepted among the demographic its afflicting. Just my guess though

ldonnawho · 2020-06-22T18:55:19+00:00

Surprisingly as a woman I actually agree with this. Yes I like attractive men just as much as the next gal and they tend to have just as many options as I do. The sharing only occurs within a committed relationship not a FWB though. That's just being in a no strings attached arrangement

Urbantexasguy · 2020-06-22T18:45:06+00:00

At the risk of being called a "simp", "cuck", "white knight" or just plain "old" (Gen-Xr), I look around, and I see women settling for less than ever. My niece is in her late 20's. She is tall, blonde and beautiful. She turns heads everywhere she goes.

She recently married a guy several inches shorter than her, who didn't have a job, or a car, when she met him. He can't be more than 5'5". He's balding and geeky. He does treat her well, however, and she's always glued to him, like he's the last man on earth. Frankly, I scratch my head, until my skin falls off, every time I see them together, but somehow, she seems really happy.

I'm not exaggerating, when I say this guy has just about every conventional disadvantage, you can imagine. If he can do it.....why can't you?

2020-06-22T16:34:52+00:00

people outright reject the premise that women are increasingly sharing a minority of men.

I've never really seen the assertion that the minority of men that women are sharing is increasing, as in, getting smaller. You used the term "increasingly sharing a smaller percentage of men"

Nobody that I've seen in TRP is saying that. The share is the same as it's always been. But it is still true. The number of sexual partners that a person has does not matter, so the chart is irrelevant. If a woman has 5 partners between 18-24, what matters is whether or not those 5 partners were part of the same cohort of men that get the majority of sex for the male population. The chart fails to parse that information.

It doesn't matter if women are promiscuous or not. It's about the type of men that they ultimately decide to sleep with.

KapteeniJ · 2020-06-22T17:10:36+00:00

Your data and conclusions are so disjointed that I'd really appreciate it if you could spell it out what you thought you saw in that data.

If you understand Finnish, the whole article basically points out that self-report surveys like this finally are starting to produce results where heterosexual men and women have roughly the same amount of sex, according to the answers. And for those reading the graphs, this seems to mostly come down to men reducing their reported numbers.

Should be fairly obvious that if women have X amount of heterosexual encounters a year, and men have 3X heterosexual encounters a year, you have lots of people lying, a lot, and the actual amount of sex had was probably somewhere between 3X and X.

And with these results, the gap between men and women reporting their sexual activity has closed down a lot, by men decreasing their reporting. That has nothing to do with men in general having less sex.

But because the data points are now aligning a lot more, you could actually use the data you presented to make way better guesses about things like, say, how many sexual partners women have during their lifetime. Median of which appears to be a little less than 5. Or you can look at men, who have about 5, as median value. Which directly proves wrong the conclusion you tried to draw from the data.

I am struggling to believe this is a genuine mistake and not just malicious attempt to lie and mislead.

Terror-Error · 2020-06-22T18:51:49+00:00

At least 2? Why stop there? Why not just ask how many different sexual partners they have? This graph doesn't even touch how prolific this phenomenon is.

Expensive-Guitar3609 · 2020-06-22T20:49:49+00:00

Well, I don't have any scientific data but I know may be 40 guys between 20 and 50 years and most of them have an average of 1 to 10 notches (with some 0's and some 20 something in both extremes)...

Except for this guy that has been with like 500 women in his entire life. I mean... It's ridiculous haha so fucking insane. And most of us his friends can relate to this, no joking. Actually back when I was single and in the dating scene, I used to run into girls that knew him already. I started to think that if most girls didn't slept with him already at least they wanted, becouse man this guy was popular, and he still is.

So may be your data is right, but my reality proves wrong. Perhaps won't be enough to change your view but well, here my two cents.

geo_gan · 2020-06-22T21:27:32+00:00

I take it this is five year old study? I’d love to see the numbers for 2020...

blueberrypieplease · 2020-06-22T22:18:30+00:00

Animals like to have a lot of sex. Humans are animals. Humans like to have lots of sex. Males like a lot of sex. Females, being also fully human, like lots of sex!

Males lie about sex, because if they don’t they may not get more sex from other females.

Females lie about sex, because if they don’t, then they or their offspring, which they care for, may get beat up, or may be not given resources. (Which it is harder for them to naturally procure, given their generally smaller /weaker morphology)

Any questions...?

Ps. If you are a man, you should be thanking your mama.

ivy176 · 2020-06-23T00:47:27+00:00

I only enter a relationship with men who have been single and celibate for years and I've had hardly any partners, so no sharing going on here.

I'm not interested in men who ever had casual sex, partied, used dating apps etc. Not interested in flirty extroverted types or needy social types.

I only date men who were just living their own life independently and who have been single a while. And to me, being single means not having anyone romantic or sexual in your life. A man who is dating and sleeping with other women, even if it was a month ago, is not single to me.

Smoogs2 · 2020-06-23T08:13:01+00:00

I don’t understand why this would reflect negatively on women. If anything, it means that there are not enough attractive men?

Clearhill · 2020-06-23T09:02:41+00:00

Um, that comment makes no sense. It appears to be totally unrelated to anything in the post.

Smoogs2 · 2020-06-23T09:05:42+00:00

So, why is it a surprise that women go for high value men and those might be a third of all men? Especially since some women preffered to be a mistress to what she would consider high value instead of marrying what she saw as low value, along history.

Iron-Giant169 · 2020-06-23T10:24:44+00:00

Damn I really was born 15 years too late

Reisiluu · 2020-06-23T11:55:00+00:00

So only a minority of women have more than 1 sex partner per year, even when they are young and hot? This basically disproves the CC.

Bntt89 · 2020-06-23T14:27:36+00:00

Because this is literally one study? I want to see a meta-analysis of women behaving in this way. Some person bringing me one study proves nothing anyway can do this for almost anything. OkCupid study is the same it doesnt prove much either.

Asbelowsoaboveme · 2020-06-23T17:00:23+00:00

Women do not consciously choose to be in a harem and exclusively “share” men, they’re being deceived. Each woman is trying to get monogamous commitment. Unless every woman in the arrangement knows the deal and enthusiastically consents to a polygamous relationship, there’s no harem (soft or hard). It’s just casual sex and manipulation and men using women. To “share” implies ownership, so a woman cannot share a man she does not own. And it’s not sharing if you’re unaware that other people are using the thing you own, that’s basically theft.

rreot · 2020-06-24T03:58:00+00:00

https://sciencenorway.no/childlessness-fathers-forskningno/a-quarter-of-norwegian-men-never-father-children/1401047

Jimmy-Turnchapel · 2020-06-26T14:50:50+00:00

For me at least, the Pareto principle here applied is a great metaphor of sexual desire. Not reality. Not relationships.

20% of men are “sexually” desirable. A goodly proportion of the other 80% are desirable enough to enter into relationships because women like other things as well.

80% of women are sexually desirable. But not all for relationships.

Smoogs2 · 2020-06-22T16:11:07+00:00

So does the graph support the claim that only a small percentage of men “sleep” with majority of women ? Sorry I can’t read Finnish very well, minun suomea on paska.

Dora_Bowl · 2020-06-22T16:03:43+00:00

There is not really a good reason to accept that premise. Some people probably feel like it happens, but that is not too convincing for anyone outside of that.

DissonanceBadger · 2020-06-22T16:57:42+00:00

I wonder what is the distribution of men and women who had only one partner, and zero partners. If women went from 60% single partners to 60% no partners, that’s a failure for them too.

SaBahRub · 2020-06-22T18:14:05+00:00

“Harem” implies some sort of one-sided exclusivity — i.e., one man, many women who sleep with no one else.

That is not what is happening — it’s non-exclusivity on both ends

wtknight · 2020-06-22T16:48:51+00:00

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sirpsychosexy8 · 2020-06-22T23:02:32+00:00

The way I see it. A new SMP dynamic is emerging organically - from K selection to R selection in the STR and Casual field - women by and large share a correspondingly smaller group of men above thier tier by 2-4 SMV points.
In other words - a pyramid structure. A male 8 can have an STR with numerous female 5's and 6's or a LTR with a 7 or 8.

The number of women electing the STR route will correspond to the degree of monopolization by men. But even a male 6 can have a harem - of female 4s.

This way all women benefit genetically (as sex is a extension of child bearing). And men have to undergo personal maximization endeavors to have any effect - either in approach magnitude or looksmaxing or money game. The burden is again on men to provide performance, entertainment and good emotions. The greater the SMV rift between the proprietor and the the consumer (woman) the more easily the arrangement comes to be.

LTRs are harmed to the degree the harem tendency provokes disgust in K selected men.

The tournament mating is optimized in the R selected environment but historically polygamy has a destabilizing force on society.

Barneysparky · 2020-06-22T17:14:46+00:00

The vast majority of young couples are monogamous during the time they are dating. The vast majority of young people do not engage in pick up culture.

Things have not changed that much since Studio 54. If you've ever seen a documentary about Studio 54 you would notice that there were many more women then men in the club.

If you choose to be a person who engages in one night stands and not relationships don't be surprised if your life becomes like the doorman at Studio 54.

Kaisern · 2020-06-22T17:25:45+00:00

Men believe this "harem" theory because they refuse to accept that many of us women have given up on men completely. Porn & the manosphere has turned too many of them into monsters & given the extra 7 hours per week in unpaid labor that most husbands cost plus the rising rates of femicides - they are just not worth the risk!

Mimoxs · 2020-06-22T16:17:24+00:00

For one thing that's a terrible choice of country - see how there's such inexplicable leaps and declines and no solid progress one way over years? Finland is such a small population that the slightest variations make huge leaps in data, especially among the youth bc Finland doesn't have that many young people

I have not seen the premise rejected, though. Even the most vehement feminists tend to openly admit it, if not make fun of men for it

Title	The idea that women are "sharing" a minority of men is vehemently rejected outright
Author	Smoogs2
Upvotes	139
Comments	477
Date	June 22, 2020 4:01 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/hdv0xh/the_idea_that_women_are_sharing_a_minority_of_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-idea-that-women-are-sharing-a-minority-of-men.698392 https://theredarchive.com/post/698392