Rules for thee but not for me

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For real. Many people think so little of it they won't even recognize it as registering on the "things to give half a fuck about" list. It's so normal here that few people give it a second thought even when presented with fundamental arguments against it.

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[–]Gaardc 10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Even for sanitary reasons, it's often unnecessary. Take a shower daily (or at the very least every other day), change your underwear, go to the doctor if it looks like you have a UTI (rare but possible in men) or STI and most likely you'll be fine.

I won't go into details but I only know one guy who was recommended it by drs when his candida infection wouldn't go away with anything; even then, drs were willing to try anything before circumcision because it was last resort. Lucky for the guy, his last round of (super strong) antibs took care of it.

EDIT: Phrased another way because apparently it doesn't read as I originally intended. I'm not a dr. so I can't really say if it really works in regards to avoiding/getting rid of infections, personally I very much doubt it —it could have a very slim effectiveness rate *if at all*, I'd welcome any research about it. The whole "keeps it clean/avoids infection" myth is just that: a myth, and it's so prevalent in America, but it's not as prevailing outside of the US (at least in LatAm where I have lived, and have family/friends) so it's not the first or even second, third, fourth option when there's other possible treatments to explore. I'm with you guys on this one: it'd be like cutting women's bits over a VB/YI/UTI.

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I have a friend who had to have his foreskin removed when he was 6 or so because it got infected (not sure on the whole story, dont want to assume) and it was basically that or a big change in lifestyle.

But yeah, serious outlier situation, could very well have been a genetic fuckers thing, or poor hygiene (he may have been a little older).

Men have foreskins for a reason, and removing it as a preventatic measure is stupid af when you can realistically remove it later in life at any time. It is a more serious surgery, sure (due to growth, and then sex hormones causing further changes during puberty, and increased amount of blood flow.) But its still way more preferable in my mind than mutilating a childs genitals for what really just boils down to laziness. Fuck religious sensativities, it really isnt much different from little girls clitori being cut of in more barbaric societies. Its fucking uncivilized af.

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I don't know what to tell you. You'll get smelly, maybe, which is socially frowned upon, I guess?

If you can go weeks and not catch an infection move along, you probably have a healthy immune system; it's generally agreed that cleaning your genitals can lower your risk of infections (often UTIs) because it moves the bacteria in our bodies around, bonus if you kill them with soap, but people who shower every day catch infections too so what gives, right?

To be clear I don't agree with circumcision, read my edit on the comment.

The example of the guy who was recommended one as last resort was NOT in the US, circumcision is NOT the norm and was a way to say that, yeah, I guess medically it's an option (it was for that guy in particular who I'm glad found his cure before having to resort to that); but it should be last resort because of how little evidence there is that it can prevent disease.

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I really can't imagine anyone from here (the U.S.) being offended that much, especially not enough to effect our relationship with another country. Seems like such a strange reason.

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You can’t eh?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/leading-us-house-members-urge-iceland-to-back-down-on-circumcision-ban/

https://www.adl.org/news/letters/letter-to-icelands-minister-for-foreign-affairs-on-proposed-male-circumcision-ban

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And I refused to testify against the 40 year old man that raped me when I was 8, forced to stay silent at risk of being shot by him (a professional big game hunter) until I could testify against the child rapist that mutilated my genitals.

You aren't the only person in the world. I have had as many problems as women in Africa who were mutilated, including anorgasmia, painful urination (leading me to attempt suicide once and forcing me to fracture an alter to survive), massive psychological damage from emotional triggers at the sight of my own dick that case me to transition into another personality abruptly, severely effecting my ability to have a normal life.

So... I don't give a rats ass. The most valuable part of your cock was hacked off, and you most definitely have problems. Like a blind man saying "I can see just fine", give me a break. No.

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The California crime of “forcible penetration with a foreign object” (also known as “forcible sexual penetration” or “sexual penetration by force or fear”) is described in California Penal Code 289 PC.1

The legal definition is:

Committing an act of sexual penetration with another person, Where that penetration is accomplished using a foreign or unknown object, Without the other person's consent, Through the use of force, violence, duress, menace, fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury, or a threat to retaliate.2 And a person may also face charges for:

Committing sexual penetration on a person who is unable to legally consent because of a mental disorder or developmental or physical disability; Committing sexual penetration on a person who is unconscious of the nature of the act; or Committing sexual penetration on someone who is too intoxicated to resist.

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It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Thats verses 1-12. Take a look at this: he talks about how getting circumcised makes Christ "of no value" to us, but then he comes back and says: "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. "

Is that not, brother, the teaching of Martin Luther? By faith alone? You cannot abide by the law (do good works) and expect to become closer to christ?!

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[–]PowerToAnnihilate1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So if you have both a seat-belt and airbag for protection in the event of an accident do you only use one? Having levels of protection is a good thing.

False equivalence. There is no harm in wearing a seat belt. It's a choice the person makes for themselves every time they get in a car.

A better equivalence would be "why don't we cut off other body parts to prevent other diseases" because we don't.

We don't cut off breast nubs to prevent breast cancer at 100% rates (which is common)

We don't remove prostates to prevent prostate cancer (common)

we don't cut off labia lips to prevent STDs or UTIs (even though women have similar rates of STDs and like 4x the UTIs men do).

Levels of protection do not extend to sheer paranoia and bodily harm of others. I wouldn't cut off my daughters legs so that she can't walk down the street to prevent rape for example. That's basically what people are doing during circumcision.

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[–]aerovado1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Bahahaha. I already provided evidence and you're to high and mighty to look at your own works.

UTI occurs in approximately one in 100 boys in the first month of life. A meta-analysis that included one randomized trial and 11 observational studies found that UTI was decreased by 90% in circumcised infants, with a significant OR of 0.13

The CDC estimated that the risk of lifetime acquisition through heterosexual transmission was reduced by 16% overall, ranging from 8% in white males to nearly 21% for black males (of just HIV).

The foreskin can become inflamed or infected (posthitis), often in association with the glans (balanoposthitis) in 1% to 4% of uncircumcised boys.[8][9] The foreskin can also become entrapped behind the glans (paraphimosis) in 0.5% of cases. Both conditions usually resolve with medical therapy but, if recurrent, can cause phimosis.

Please look at the whole NNT breakdown some are as low as 4 or 5. This is all in using the same study Canadian study most everyone uses here

[–]PowerToAnnihilate1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

UTI occurs in approximately one in 100 boys in the first month of life. A meta-analysis that included one randomized trial and 11 observational studies found that UTI was decreased by 90% in circumcised infants, with a significant OR of 0.13

Or we could just give them antibiotics like what we do for girls...

The CDC estimated that the risk of lifetime acquisition through heterosexual transmission was reduced by 16% overall, ranging from 8% in white males to nearly 21% for black males (of just HIV).

And? Infants aren't having sex and i already addressed this. We don't cut boobs off to prevent breast cancer.

The foreskin can become inflamed or infected (posthitis), often in association with the glans (balanoposthitis) in 1% to 4% of uncircumcised boys.[8][9] The foreskin can also become entrapped behind the glans (paraphimosis) in 0.5% of cases. Both conditions usually resolve with medical therapy but, if recurrent, can cause phimosis.

That doesn't mean that less severe options shouldn't be used first nor does it invalidate my bodily autonomy points.

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[–]intactisnormal1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let's go over the stats on the items they cover:

“It has been estimated that 111 to 125 normal infant boys (for whom the risk of UTI is 1% to 2%) would need to be circumcised at birth to prevent one UTI.” And they can easily be treated through standard antibiotics if and when there's an issue.

“The number needed to [circumcise] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298.” Also circumcision is not effective prevention. Condoms must be used regardless.

"An estimated 0.8% to 1.6% of boys will require circumcision before puberty, most commonly to treat phimosis. The first-line medical treatment of phimosis involves applying a topical steroid twice a day to the foreskin, accompanied by gentle traction. This therapy ... allow[s] the foreskin to become retractable in 80% of treated cases, thus usually avoiding the need for circumcision."

“Decreased penile cancer risk: [Number needed to circumcise] = 900 – 322,000”.

I say at these stats it's disingenuous to suggest these are legitimate medical benefits. All of these items have different and more effective treatments or prevention methods.

[–]aerovado-1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

UTI occurs in approximately one in 100 boys in the first month of life. A meta-analysis that included one randomized trial and 11 observational studies found that UTI was decreased by 90% in circumcised infants, with a significant OR of 0.13

The CDC estimated that the risk of lifetime acquisition through heterosexual transmission was reduced by 16% overall, ranging from 8% in white males to nearly 21% for black males (of just HIV).

The foreskin can become inflamed or infected (posthitis), often in association with the glans (balanoposthitis) in 1% to 4% of uncircumcised boys.[8][9] The foreskin can also become entrapped behind the glans (paraphimosis) in 0.5% of cases. Both conditions usually resolve with medical therapy but, if recurrent, can cause phimosis.

Please look at the whole NNT breakdown some are as low as 4 or 5. This is all in using the same study.

[–]intactisnormal2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Everything you listed is the relative risk. The absolute risk paints a very different picture. Note this is the same data set presented in a better imo form rather than the impressive sounding but misleading 90%.

We need to consider how uncommon UTI's are. We know that “It has been estimated that 111 to 125 normal infant boys ... would need to be circumcised at birth to prevent one UTI.”

With regards to accuracy they also note "However, it should be noted that contaminated urines are more common in uncircumcised males, potentially leading to overdiagnosis of UTI; thus, the number needed to treat may be considerably higher than that found in these studies."

“In boys at higher risk for UTI, such as those with recurrent UTI or an underlying urinary tract anomaly (eg, high-grade vesico-ureteric reflux or obstructive uropathy), circumcision may be of greater benefit. In these cases, it is estimated that only four boys would need to be circumcised to prevent one UTI.” Obstructions and malformations can be diagnosed both at birth and later, and on an individual basis. An individual diagnosis is vastly different than routine circumcision without necessity.

Let's also consider the repercussions of a UTI. "Childhood UTI leads to ... renal scarring in 15% of cases.[19] Although these scars could theoretically have an impact on long-term renal function and hypertension, there is no evidence for this effect, and most experts believe that UTIs in children with normal kidneys do not result in long-term sequelae."

And let's consider normal treatment methods. This group of notable doctors says UTI’s "can easily be treated with antibiotics without tissue loss." Keep in mind this is the standard treatment for baby girls, who have a UTI rate about ~10 time higher than boys.

So even when a patient gets a UTI, the treatment is not a circumcision. The treatment is a simple round of antibiotics. Keep in mind that removing a body parts is considered the absolute last resort, to be entertained only when all other options are exhausted. And that's for when pathology is actually present. Doing it beforehand shows circumcision has an exemption from standard medical practice, which is honestly bizarre when we're dealing with someone else's genitals. It's the most private and personal body part.

And let's consider the appropriateness of circumcision to address this issue. Dr. Guest discusses how circumcision fails the test of proportionality.

After all that that, "The risk of UTI declines rapidly in males after the first few months of life to an incidence of one in 1000 by one year of age."

To sum it up UTI's are not a common issue, nor a serious one, can easily be treated without tissue loss, circumcision is not a proportional response - especially as a preventative measure, and most importantly circumcision is not medically necessary. You have to look at the whole issue. To perform an operation on a newborn medical necessity must be shown, such that the operation cannot reasonably be delayed until the patient can make his own choice. "With newborn circumcision, medical necessity has not been clearly established."

[–]intactisnormal0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The previous reply was long enough just to address your UTI. On to HIV.

"The CDC estimated that the risk of lifetime acquisition through heterosexual transmission was reduced by 16% overall, ranging from 8% in white males to nearly 21% for black males. ...The number needed to treat to prevent one HIV infection varied from 1231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. ... In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices." I've bolded the NNT because I think that is the best way to look at the numbers. You'd have to circumcise 298 baby boys to prevent one case of HIV. And again these numbers are even under attack, it could easily be much higher.

The Canadian Paediatrics paper says "It remains unclear, however, whether these conclusions can be applied to populations in developed countries, where the HIV seroprevalence rates are lower and common routes of HIV transmission include injection drug use (IDU) and men who have sex with men (MSM)."

The concept is under attack so much by this group of 39 notable European doctors that they basically dismiss it entirely. "This evidence, however, is contradicted by other studies, which show no relationship between HIV infection rates and circumcision status.10 However, there is no evidence that circumcision, whether in infancy, childhood, or adulthood, is effective in preventing heterosexual transmission in countries where HIV prevalence is much lower and routes of transmission are different, such as Europe and the United States. Sexually transmitted HIV infections in the West occur predominantly among men who have sex with men, and there is no evidence that circumcision offers any protection against HIV acquisition in this group."

They also say "only 1 of the aforementioned arguments has some theoretical relevance in relation to infant male circumcision; namely, the questionable argument of UTI prevention in infant boys. The other claimed health benefits are also questionable, weak, and likely to have little public health relevance in a Western context" Before concluding "circumcision for HIV protection in Western countries fails to meet the criteria for preventive medicine: there is no strong evidence for effectiveness and other, more effective, and less intrusive means are available. There is also no compelling reason why the procedure should be performed long before sexual debut; sexually transmitted HIV infection is not a relevant threat to children"

And I also like their discussion of medical necessity and self choice: "As with traditional STDs, sexual transmission of HIV occurs only in sexually active individuals. Consequently, from an HIV prevention perspective, if at all effective in a Western context, circumcision can wait until boys are old enough to engage in sexual relationships. Boys can decide for themselves, therefore, whether they want to get circumcised to obtain, at best, partial protection against HIV or rather remain genitally intact and adopt safe-sex practices that are far more effective. As with the other possible benefits, circumcision for HIV protection in Western countries fails to meet the criteria for preventive medicine: there is no strong evidence for effectiveness and other, more effective, and less intrusive means are available. There is also no compelling reason why the procedure should be performed long before sexual debut; sexually transmitted HIV infection is not a relevant threat to children".

And we can look at the real world results: “The African findings are also not in line with the fact that the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with a high percentage of routine circumcisions. The situation in most European countries is precisely the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates. Therefore, other factors seem to play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This finding also suggests that there are alternative, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs."

If you’d prefer, you can watch this presentation instead: Dr. Guest discusses STI’s and how benefits from circumcision are overshadowed by behavioural factors.

Dr. Guest discusses the absolute HIV numbers and methodological flaws with the African studies including that the circumcised men were unable to have sex for 6-8 weeks, the prevalence and impact of sex workers, that malaria helped spread HIV in the study area, and problems with early closure of the study.

Finally to address the last point I'll repost what you've already ignored: "An estimated 0.8% to 1.6% of boys will require circumcision before puberty, most commonly to treat phimosis. The first-line medical treatment of phimosis involves applying a topical steroid twice a day to the foreskin, accompanied by gentle traction. This therapy ... allow[s] the foreskin to become retractable in 80% of treated cases, thus usually avoiding the need for circumcision."

And add that this can be addressed if and when there is a problem. These are not serious or life threatening issues that need a preventative measure far before there's an issue like the diseases that vaccines protect against.

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almost comical

Well, it is one haha

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Just to add to this, when cleaning a baby penis, you do NOT retract the foreskin. It is fused to the glans (head). Forced retraction can lead to damage and infection which is part of the idea that it is dirty. Retraction is also extremely painful when it is still fused.

For more info, try this link.

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That's incredibly true and important to note. Most of the time, father's are the ones who decide if their son is circumcised and it's been that way for generations, because of religious practices like Christianity and Judaism. Women usually do it out of tradition, which still isn't great. Regardless, it's still genital mutilation and shouldn't be so common and seen as an ok practice in the western world, considering there are some medical issues that come with it, like serious infections and nerve damage. It's wrong, especially since you're doing to a child, who has no idea what you're doing and can't even say if they want it done or not. There are surgeries out there to allow a "regrowth" of foreskin or "restoration" but it could cost you a lot of money, if you decided you're unhappy with being circumcised, and it's not the same as actually having your original foreskin. If female genital mutilation, in third world countries, is considered a horrible and taboo thing by the media, this should be too, especially in first world countries.

Edit: Added some things for thing for clarity

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When I had my son I had to tell several people that he was NOT being circumcised, including the nurse who tried to wheel him off for it.

I was not expecting it to have such an opt-out feeling as opposed to needing to specifically ask for it. It was surreal.

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Most labor and delivery units will largely ignore the husband or father during the labor and birthing process. They didnt let my husband cut the cord even though I asked several times for him to be able to. They treated him poorly because he slept through most of my labor which was fine. It was 18 hours and we started at 4am on a day he had work. When things got active he was there for me. Oh and to top it all off the nurses asked if the child was his because she was so pale at birth and my husband is more chocolatey. I'm pale for a black person. Everyone in my family is. They treated him like shit the whole pregnancy. Accused him of giving me an STD when I had a bad infection. Accused him of abusing me when my noted clinical depression got bad and needed intervention. Basically the medical community treat men like shit when it comes to pregnancy. As if it's not their kid too.

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Fair point, I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s kind of like slut shaming: women are usually the target, but both women and men perpetuate/partake in the practice.

But in this case it's almost constantly women who are getting asked "Do you want to circumcise". I'm not saying "Ignore the men pushing the practice" (i.e. Kellogs may he eat a bag of dicks) I'm just saying that these women have the power to make the right choice and should feel obligated to do so.

I don't think saying "Hey you care about bodily autonomy right, you care about consent right? Well circumcision violates both of those, so if you do that you're a hypocrite" is a misogynist argument, it's simply pointing out reality to those most likely to make the choice.

In the same way men can be both victims of circumcision and advocates for it. I’ve heard this phenomenon referred to as internalized sexism if that’s more straightforward.

"Internalized Sexism" is a bad term and one I never use. In this case these men have been forced through REAL physical trauma, more like victims of DV who return to their abuser, getting circumcised alters the brain and causes permanent trauma.

The reason I don't like the term "Internalized Sexism" is because feminists will find any woman who disagrees with them and say "OH YOU HATE YOURSELF! INTERNALIZED SEXISM!" when in reality the person disagrees with the statement due to either inherent sexism, dogmatic reasoning in the feminist statement, or some other reason they clearly articulated before being told they just hate themselves.

This is an issue that's more cultural than religious, and as many pre-suffragette era activists (i.e. the ones who led the prohibition movement) will tell you: Women have a huge amount of control over social norms.

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Reading an URL isn't the same thing as reading the article behind it...

In the first point there is a mention of a seizure, which I'm pretty sure isn't helpful for your brain. And since you mostly are what your brain makes you, it's hard for me to see a psychological problem cauaed by this trauma as anything else than brain damage.

But, for your convenience, here is point 2 of the article, which deals with literal, physical changes in the brain, a.k.a. brain damage:

Pain from Circumcision in Infancy Alters the Brain

Research has demonstrated the hormone cortisol, which is associated with stress and pain, spikes during circumcision (Talbert et al., 1976; Gunnar et al., 1981). Although some believe that babies “won’t remember” the pain, we now know that the body “remembers” as evidenced by studies which demonstrate that circumcised infants are more sensitive to pain later in life (Taddio et al., 1997). Research carried out using neonatal animals as a proxy to study the effects of pain on infants’ psychological development have found distinct behavioral patterns characterized by increased anxiety, altered pain sensitivity, hyperactivity, and attention problems (Anand & Scalzo, 2000). In another similar study, it was found that painful procedures in the neonatal period were associated with site-specific changes in the brain that have been found to be associated with mood disorders (Victoria et al., 2013)."

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Yeah it sucks having been circumcised I really do wonder what I missed out on. Sex is supposed to feel good. There would be a massive scandal if people went around cutting of clits.

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The problem is that most people don’t understand that not all sexual sensation contributes to orgasm trigger the same. The sensitivity you lack isn’t in the ability to achieve orgasm (obviously). The difference is in detail and breadth of experience.

Consider reading Braille for example. This works because the finger tips are incredibly fine touch sensitive, and have a high concentration of fine touch receptors on them. Your fingers sense a high level of “detail” about the things they touch. Texture, shape, hot / cold, moisture, etc. Your fingertips can tell those tiny ridges and bumps apart, because you feel in ‘high detail’ as a result of those fine touch receptors. Now imagine reading Braille with your elbow, which has almost no fine touch receptors. Maybe you could learn how in the long run, but it would be very difficult. This is one example of how the foreskin improves the sexual experience for a man. Just like your fingertips, it has a very high degree of fine touch sensitivity, and can perceive in fine detail, all the texture, shape, moisture, or heat of whatever it touches. The tissue remaining after circumcison is some of the least fine touch sensitive tissue on the entire organ. The glans (head) is not fine touch sensitive (even though it is sexually sensitive) and mostly perceives coarse touch, pressure and pain (which is the root of the stimulus for the sexual sensation it provides, via course touch and pressure) as it contains mostly free nerve endings.

The other way the foreskin improves sexual experience, is through depth. This is the difference between being colourblind or not. Circumcised, you feel one variety of sensation. Rubbing. If you’re lucky and cut loosely, your skin has some give and is slightly Mobile. That movement is the last remaining piece of the gliding mechanism, the primary sexual contribution and function of the foreskin.

The foreskin naturally slides up and down during sex and masturbation like a built in tenga egg or flesh light that you can fuck and feel at the same time (because it’s part of your penis). Besides feeling your partner rub against your penis, you feel your own skin fold, twist, slide past itself and your partner, etc. Your partner can put their tongue inside, or a finger, which is an entirely unique sensation. Feeling that skin slide up and over the glans (head) during sex and while inside your partner, is another unique sensation that is completely destroyed by circumcision.

Ultimately circumcision fundamentally changes the kinds of sensation you can experience (breadth), and the amount of detail you can experience those sensations in. It’s much more complex than, “no foreskin = less sensation = slower orgasm”. There are degrees and types of both blindness and of deafness, so why would we assume there are not degrees and types of ways that you can lose the ability to feel things physically? In my experience, it’s because people are mislead to believe the issue is simpler than it actually is.

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Sex feels the same circumcised vs uncut, the foreskin pulls back to reveal the interior. Honestly just found out about this controversy where it’s labeled as MGM. On paper it absolutely is that way (I was pretty shocked I never aligned that), but I can’t see the benefit of being uncircumcised.

Societally uncut is viewed harshly in western cultures and I very much intend of circumcising my son of I ever have one. I just see no reason to not to. I view it as similar to a tonsillectomy, I suffered with tonsillitis and had to get it removed when I was 16 and the recovery was brutal and nearly sent me to the ER, I wished I had it done with I was a child where it’s much much milder. I know a lot of kids who would have loved to have the procedure but by then there parents wouldn’t let them bc minor surgeries when your older are huge issues. I’d rather my son not have to deal with a similar experience but this time regarding circumcision

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I don't feel like it's placing all the blame in one corner, but pointing out a hypocrisy in one of those corners. Correct me if I'm wrong but, in no case is a child circumcised without the mothers consent, likely both mother and fathers? So the point being, since women are leading the front on "my body my choice", they should follow suit in all cases and resist people permanently modifying other people's bodies.

Although both parties are to blame, I feel like the point was merely that one of the two parties is actually working for change for the better, whereas men don't have that kind of movement happening right now. Does that make sense, or am I way off base?

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Ethicist Brian Earp discusses how women who undergo FGM don't feel harmed, why they think that, and the influence of commonly held beliefs.

Here is an interesting interview with various women who have undrgone FGM, female circumcision as they call it, and they say they consider it is normal, it doesn’t hurt, it must be done for religion, how it's now done at a doctor's clinic, etc.

Note what’s absent here is the mother’s thinking they’re harming their daughters. They aren’t doing it to control or limit their sexuality, rather they say it doesn’t do any harm and that they’re doing it out of tradition, religion, social norms, and that it’s fine because a doctor does it.

Now do we accept any of that thinking to permit FGM? No we do not. It comes down to medical necessity. Specifically anything that is not medically necessary is not permitted.

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Sure, circumcision is not the same as rape, but both of them are an act that causes harm towards another person in some way that they did not consent to. Of course an infant isn't going to say no, it doesn't know what is happening, but it is pretty obvious it doesn't like it. And really how many males that can think for themselves would actually wanna be circumcised for a reason that is not medical? If a male wants a "pretty" dick, why don't they let them decide that for themselves when they are older, instead of when they're new born? If you are snipped and okay with it then good for you but there are a lot of men that are and wish they weren't, but they can't do anything about it. Why don't we tattoo infants? They won't remember the pain and then they'll have something permanent on them for life! One of the reasons is maybe when they grow up they might not actually want a tattoo. Female genital mutilation? Why is that illegal? Likely because, put simply, it is fucked up. Why is male curcumcision seen differently then?

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i also feel like many of you would feel much better about this if it was strictly the father's choice.

No, it should strictly be the person's choice. I fail to see how purely cosmetic operations with very real risks should be the parent's choice. There's not a single other instance of that being allowed that I know of.

I see your points, I do; but I'll always feel you guys are blowing it out of proportion.

Because nobody ever has had complications from medically completely unnecessary operations right? How many people needed their penises removed or died or got severe infections after the procedure? It's not a riskless operation at all, look it up. It's greater than 0, and it's not justified by "trim it to look nice and shapely".

you guys are blowing it out of proportion.

Honestly, do tell this to the guys whose penises got mangled or disfigured because of botched operations they never consented to nor needed medically, yet had their sexual/romantic lives ruined permanently.

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My brother who contracted a superbug staph infection that nearly killed him from his circumcision had falsified records. Its not surprising at all. Doctors will do anything to avoid having higher malpractice insurance rates, or having an unnecessary sexually abusive non-consentual surgery nearly killing someone.

The doctors tried to blame it on the tools used for cutting his umbilical cord, apparently oblivious to the fact that staph requires an open wound or access to the blood supply to infect, and that babies and mothers do not share blood (or a baby with a different blood type would be killed by the mother's). If it had access to the active blood supply, then babies would bleed out after birth in the wild.

I was deeply disturbed by how ignorant the doctors were in coming up that excuse, how they intentionally dodged considering the obvious cause, being the circumcision and that my parents stupidly believed them.

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There's a very real puritan propaganda agenda from white men

No. The highest rates of circumcision occur in non-white countries:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772313/

Here's a link to just the table of countries and their prevalence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772313/table/Tab1/?report=objectonly

From Wikipedia:
In 2007, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that globally, the vast majority of men who are circumcised are Muslims. They estimated 33% of adult males worldwide (aged 15+) are circumcised, with almost 70% of those being Muslims.[3]

Here's the WHO source: http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/43749/9789241596169_eng.pdf;jsessionid=2EB402B8F5561454A17C8C718C0A4010?sequence=1

If you could stop being both a racist AND a sexist, that would be great.

[+]Servicemaster -10 points-9 points-8 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully 11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Lmao USA's at 71% my guy, that's still pretty fucking high.

Yes it is, and that's despicable. That's still less than 1/3rd of all circumcision. I was merely refuting your point that it's a "white" thing. Race is clearly not the controlling factor - ideology is.

Contextually, in the USA, it is from puritan white men.

In the U.S. it's from puritans yes, it's also from women who make statements like "It's cleaner" or "It looks better", women who force their views onto the bodies of their sons.

Women are the majority of decision makers in this process, I believe women have agency, you clearly do not.

"Non-white countries" you don't sound fully functioning, you sound fucking racist.

It's not racism to point out that circumcision is orders of magnitude more common in other countries, the point is that race isn't a factor, your hatred of white people aside there is no reason to conclude that circumcision is a racial issue - it is absolutely a cultural and religious one however, Islam being the religious which perpetrates it most by massive margins.

Oh and now that I've read the last part of your comment, it seems you claim I'M the sexist and racist. No, I'm being raceful and sexful. You see, I'm the one making the claims against those who circumcise, you're the one attempting to now demonize non-whites after demonizing women.

"raceful"? "Sexful"? Please stop making up words it makes you sound incredibly broken.

You're defending those who circumcise and denying women their agency, when you say "Circumcision isn't the fault of the person who made the decision when it's women" then you rob women of their agency. Women are grown adults responsible for their own choices, robbing them of their agency and the responsibility of their choices is inherently misogynistic.

If a man raped someone would you say it was "peer pressure" and that "everyone was doing it"? HELL NO. Because that would be fucked. The person makes the choice, and last I checked women were adult human beings.

[–]Servicemaster-5 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]koeleskab4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Servicemaster1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]koeleskab2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Servicemaster2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

English is a living language

No, English is a language with defined terms and meanings. Making up words is something children do, you are an adult though you choose to act like a child.

and "please stop" demonizing women in the name of progress for men.

Again, no one is demonizing women, women who circumcise their sons are engaging in evil behavior and should be ashamed of that. Women are adults responsible for their actions.

Women who circumcise are responsible for their actions, the women who do not circumcise bear no responsibility for it. This is not demonizing women it is calling out individuals responsible for abuse.

Please refer to this comment for a response to the rest of the angry and rude sexist bullshit.

It is abundantly clear you hate men and boys, even going as far as saying that women have a right to abuse their children if they want because they gave birth.

Women are responsible for their choices, to those women who do the right thing I give kudos, to those who do the wrong thing I give shame. Many women presently do the wrong thing and that is very sad.

[–]FunctioningFully 20 points21 points22 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Why is it we can't fight for men's rights in any shape or form without demonizing women?

Why can't we ever criticize people's hypocrisy without someone coming in here yelling about how women are a protected class immune from criticism?

Honest question. Most moms I talked with either did it because everyone else has been doing it and/or the hospital pressured her.

Oh so if you get pressured into something you're no longer accountable, how interesting, I didn't realize women were pathetic and had the agency of children. I guess that'll be the new defense for rape "Sorry, she didn't consent but you know everyone else was doing it and my friends kinda pressured me".

You're an awful person if you think that's any form of an excuse. If anything it's an indicator that you'll go to any lengths to excuse the wrongdoings of women.

There's a very real puritan propaganda agenda from white men who believe cleanliness is next to godliness and circumcision is "cleaner" than a natural cock while they dry wipe their assholes and wonder why hemorrhoids are a thing.

The overwhelming majority of circumcision decisions are made entirely by women, and almost all of the arguments for circumcision i.e. "It's cleaner" or "It looks better" are all from women. Women are responsible for their own choices, stop blaming men for the actions of women, women are not infants.

Look inward, men. Not outward.

I'm going to assume you're a feminist, it seems pretty clear to me you think women can never do anything wrong, you seem extremely willing to push everything off onto men as though men are the "root of all evil" or something.

[–]Servicemaster -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Why can't we ever criticize people's hypocrisy without someone coming in here yelling about how women are a protected class immune from criticism?

Why would you not want to attempt to employ empathy for progress rather than persecuting women? What exactly do you want to do, jail mothers? Give them tickets? You realize the healthcare employees are the ones doing the snipping, right? Like the one doctor up in michigan who was arrested for "circumcising" vulvas.

I guess that'll be the new defense for rape

Not surprised you went to something as traumatizing as rape as your first defence since cocks can mutilate vulvas so easily, something us men like to conveniently forget when attempting to talk about such violating acts to the genitals. I'm not saying we should hate on that, I'm saying we should understand that forgiveness is a very healthy yet emotional response in order to not burn any bridges very quickly when arguing about something so incredibly terrible as genital mutilation in any form.

The overwhelming majority of circumcision decisions are made entirely by women

No fucking shit, do men give birth now or did I miss that chain email? White, puritan men are the FIRST and LOUDEST to get overly upset about their cut cocks.

You've spent this whole time arguing with me about how terrible women can be without any inclination toward actually fixing the problem which would be for men not to get so defensive when talking about their mutilated genitals. "It works fine for me" needs to be addressed so they can pressure the dominant gender who do not have penises yet give birth to those who do, not to mutilate our fucking genitals.

[–]FunctioningFully 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Why would you not want to attempt to employ empathy for progress rather than persecuting women? What exactly do you want to do, jail mothers? Give them tickets? You realize the healthcare employees are the ones doing the snipping, right? Like the one doctor up in michigan who was arrested for "circumcising" vulvas.

And it's women asking them to do it, giving them the ability to do so.

Not surprised you went to something as traumatizing as rape as your first defence since cocks can mutilate vulvas so easily, something us men like to conveniently forget when attempting to talk about such violating acts to the genitals.

Wow your misuse of the word mutilate is disgusting.

Circumcision permanently alters the brain, it is INCREDIBLY traumatic: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damage

It involves a baby being strapped down against their will having their genitals forcefully exposed, having the skin RIPPED BACK and SLICED OFF, almost universally without anesthesia all while they scream and cry, and writhe in agony. The boys who die from bloodloss, the boys who lose their penis, the countless boys who enter shock, all of them are dismissed by you.

Rape and circumcision are both incredibly horrific, when did children become worth less than women?

I'm not saying we should hate on that, I'm saying we should understand that forgiveness is a very healthy yet emotional response in order to not burn any bridges very quickly when arguing about something so incredibly terrible as genital mutilation in any form.

I don't need forgiveness for rape, rape is something rapists do, rapists should be sentenced to jail. Women who circumcise should be held accountable for circumcision they should be told that what they did was wrong, they should be told that THEY were responsible. Only through accepting responsibility can they avoid repeating it again.

This is about treating people right, stop treating men and boys like second class citizens. You were all too happy to demonize "white men" as the subhuman oppressors in your narrative, let's at least hold these women responsible for their actions.

No fucking shit, do men give birth now or did I miss that chain email? White, puritan men are the FIRST and LOUDEST to get overly upset about their cut cocks.

Men are the victims, victims are allowed to be defensive, Men don't want to believe that their mothers hurt them. Society pushes a narrative that places women upon a pedestal, a narrative that women can never do wrong. This is the narrative that you are both defending and encouraging by saying it's never a woman's fault. You'll attack "white men" all day long because you hate them and want them to suffer, but you won't even hold a woman responsible for the choices she makes.

You've spent this whole time arguing with me about how terrible women can be without any inclination toward actually fixing the problem which would be for men not to get so defensive when talking about their mutilated genitals. "It works fine for me" needs to be addressed so they can pressure the dominant gender who do not have penises yet give birth to those who do, not to mutilate our fucking genitals.

The first step is getting Men (and society at large) to realize that women are not perfect, women can be monsters, they can be rapists, they can be murderers, and all the horrible things men can be. Women are humans, and humans can do horrible things.

In order to fix this we must first give Men the capacity to be upset about what was done to them, how can we do that if we can't say that what women are doing is wrong, that what women are doing is their responsibility? When you say "Women are not responsible for their actions because everyone's doing it" or "Women aren't responsible because peer pressure" you engage in multiple sexist behaviors: Dismissing the agency of women reducing them to children, and Denying men the right to be upset at the ones who said "Sure, strap my son down, cut him up and let him writhe in agony".

Any woman with a soul will feel guilt about the decision she made when she learns she was wrong, it is only through acceptance that we'll ever make progress.

Women are not perfect, they're nowhere close, they're human lets treat them like it.

[–]Servicemaster-4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully6 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ReasonItOut 27 points28 points29 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]secondaccountforme 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]secondaccountforme -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It is not reasonable to say that women aren't responsible for their own actions because of peer pressure or because "everyone is doing it" that is incredibly reductive, not to mention incredibly bigoted against Men and Boys.

Where did I say they weren't responsible for their own actions? I said that it's not just women who are doing this so to reduce the issue and focus the blame solely on them isn't a good tactic.

Many women do it for their "Own personal reasons" I.e. "It looks better" or "It's cleaner" again the onus is on the decision maker to make the right decision.

Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too. Lots of them have genuine misconceptions and think its safer or healthier. And a lot of the time it's not even women alone or at all making the decision. That's the point. You can't reduce a complex issue down to a strawman just because it's easier.

Don't pretend that the pro-life movement is just men who want to control women's bodies.

Don't pretend that everyone who circumcises their kid is just a woman making the decision on her own for purely cosmetic reasons.

[–]FunctioningFully 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Where did I say they weren't responsible for their own actions? I said that it's not just women who are doing this so to reduce the issue and focus the blame solely on them isn't a good tactic.

No one said that we should reduce the issue and focus blame solely on them.

We should however hold them responsible and show them the hypocrisy of their ways, which is exactly what this cartoon is doing.

Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too.

Here you are again, refusing to hold women responsible. Your "If women do anything wrong it's because someone else is" argument is disgusting and makes women look pathetic. Stop denying women responsibility and agency.

Lots of them have genuine misconceptions and think its safer or healthier.

And they're responsible for doing the research, and they are responsible for the harm they did. It was their responsibility, it was their choice, it was them who gave the go-ahead. It is time for women to be held responsible for their actions just like men are.

And a lot of the time it's not even women alone or at all making the decision. That's the point. You can't reduce a complex issue down to a strawman just because it's easier.

Don't pretend that the pro-life movement is just men who want to control women's bodies.

~50% of women oppose abortion, so no one with half a brain could assume that. It would be misogynistic to deny those women agency and say "Oh clearly she's just doing what men tell her" (that's what you're doing right now)

Don't pretend that everyone who circumcises their kid is just a woman making the decision on her own for purely cosmetic reasons.

It's not everyone (again ~30% of the males in the world are circumcised), it's not purely cosmetic reasons (again, Islam is the largest cause as it's ideology mandates it). But the subset of women who are engaging in this behavior need to be told it's wrong, they need to be shown the hypocrisy of their ways.

All this article is saying is "Denying your child consent before you mutilate them makes you a hypocrite" it doesn't say "All women are monsters" it doesn't say "Kill all women" it doesn't say any of the messages Feminism has pushed about Men, all it says is "Women who circumcise are engaging in abuse, their child does not consent and is a victim".

You are the one who believes women have a right to mutilate their children because they gave birth, you are the one who says women aren't responsible because "everyone is doing it", you are the one who ERUPTS the moment you hear "let's hold women responsible for their actions" but will shout white men every other word like an obsessed cultist.

Oh but you're "raceful" and "sexful", you're a deranged individual unwilling to stop treating women as perfect angels.

[–]secondaccountforme2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No one said that we should reduce the issue and focus blame solely on them. We should however hold them responsible and show them the hypocrisy of their ways, which is exactly what this cartoon is doing.

Sure. But again. The problem with circumcision isn't women. This comic very clearly focuses the blame on women.

Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too.

Here you are again, refusing to hold women responsible. Your "If women do anything wrong it's because someone else is" argument is disgusting and makes women look pathetic. Stop denying women responsibility and agency.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm literally listing reasons parents decide to have their kids circumcised. That's it. I agree that if a woman does it for that reason, she's just as much responsible as if she does it for any other reason because the practice itself is bad. All I'm saying is that there are many more reasons that parents do this than the two you listed.

And they're responsible for doing the research, and they are responsible for the harm they did. It was their responsibility, it was their choice, it was them who gave the go-ahead. It is time for women to be held responsible for their actions just like men are.

Again, I totally agree. I think we need to hold all parents who decide to circumcise their kids responsible for that decision. And that's why I think placing undue blame solely on women is counterproductive. It's a strawman.

~50% of women oppose abortion, so no one with half a brain could assume that.

Except you can find that type of rhetoric everywhere in the pro-choice movement, because it's an effective strawman. It's easier to tear down pro-lifers if you paint them as men making uninformed decisions about women's bodies. It's easer to tear down parents who circumcise their kids if you paint them as women making uninformed decisions about men's bodies. The reality is that in both cases that characterization doesn't reflect reality.

It would be misogynistic to deny those women agency and say "Oh clearly she's just doing what men tell her" (that's what you're doing right now)

No it's not lol where did I even do that?

But the subset of women who are engaging in this behavior need to be told it's wrong, they need to be shown the hypocrisy of their ways.

Ok, so can you specify what behavior that is exactly? "Circumcising their kid for non-religious reasons"?

all it says is "Women who circumcise are engaging in abuse, their child does not consent and is a victim".

Sure, but again, why the focus on women?

You are the one who believes women have a right to mutilate their children because they gave birth, you are the one who says women aren't responsible because "everyone is doing it", you are the one who ERUPTS the moment you hear "let's hold women responsible for their actions" but will shout white men every other word like an obsessed cultist.

LMAO man you're really going overboard here. We do need to hold everyone who circumcises their kids responsible. That includes men and women. I never said we shouldn't hold women responsible. Nor did I say anything about "white men" lol.

[–]FunctioningFully2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure. But again. The problem with circumcision isn't women. This comic very clearly focuses the blame on women.

No, the comic focuses the blame on hypocrisy, it's women making the decision in the comic because it's women making the decision in reality. Women need to understand and take responsibility.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm literally listing reasons parents decide to have their kids circumcised. That's it. I agree that if a woman does it for that reason, she's just as much responsible as if she does it for any other reason because the practice itself is bad. All I'm saying is that there are many more reasons that parents do this than the two you listed.

I absolutely agree that there are many other reasons, and I agree that religion is the most prominent, and I cited sources showing that such is the case. What I don't agree with is that it's all the fault of "white men" or that women bear no responsibility. If a woman circumcises because of peer pressure she's a weakling and a coward, and yes she's still responsible.

Again, I totally agree. I think we need to hold all parents who decide to circumcise their kids responsible for that decision. And that's why I think placing undue blame solely on women is counterproductive. It's a strawman.

Again there is no solely here, nothing absolutely nothing in this comic says "This is the only way circumcision occurs and there are no other causes" it is causing out one instance of hypocrisy, calling out a subset of women for their hypocrisy is not "Demonizing women".

I think we need to hold all parents who decide to circumcise their kids responsible for that decision.

No you think when women do it it's just "peer pressure" because "everyone is doing it" you also believe "women have a right to decide what happens to their children because they gave birth", you will rob the child of agency if it suits women as you've shown time and time again.

No it's not lol where did I even do that?

Here: (The woman is responsible, as SHE DID IT, indifference to abuse doesn't make you innocent it makes you complicit)

Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too.

Ok, so can you specify what behavior that is exactly? "Circumcising their kid for non-religious reasons"?

Denying baby boys the right to bodily autonomy while screaming about how important bodily autonomy is - it's telling these women to practice what they preach.

Sure, but again, why the focus on women?

Because in this instance it's the women making the decision and it's the women who don't realize they're being hypocrites. The focus isn't "solely" on women, but in this case women are the decision makers in most cases and so they need to realize that it's their responsibility to stop this. Men are victims and as victims they will rationalize their abuse, it's time for women to show men some compassion.

LMAO man you're really going overboard here. We do need to hold everyone who circumcises their kids responsible. That includes men and women. I never said we should hold women responsible. Nor did I say anything about "white men" lol.

Nice Freudian slip there.

I mixed you up with u/servicemaster your 'first account' ;)

[–]secondaccountforme1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, the comic focuses the blame on hypocrisy,

That doesn't make sense. You can call something hypocritical, but you can't "blame" hypocrisy for something.

it's women making the decision in the comic because it's women making the decision in reality.

What makes you think it's "women making the decision in reality"?

What I don't agree with is that it's all the fault of "white men" or that women bear no responsibility.

Ok, And I never said either of those things so Idk why you're acting like I did.

Again there is no solely here, nothing absolutely nothing in this comic says "This is the only way circumcision occurs and there are no other causes" it is causing out one instance of hypocrisy, calling out a subset of women for their hypocrisy is not "Demonizing women".

I never said it was "demonizing women". I just said that it's essentially stawman and therefor unhelpful rhetoric. The comic doesn't have to say "This is the only way circumcision occurs and there are no other causes". The rhetoric speaks for itself.

No you think when women do it it's just "peer pressure" because "everyone is doing it"

Uh, no. Perhaps you don't remember what was said. You said "Many women do it for their "Own personal reasons" I.e. "It looks better" or "It's cleaner" again the onus is on the decision maker to make the right decision." "

To which I replied: "Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too. Lots of them have genuine misconceptions and think its safer or healthier. And a lot of the time it's not even women alone or at all making the decision."

I never said those were the only reasons. I listed them as additional reasons, and agreed that people do it for the reasons you mentioned as well.

you also believe "women have a right to decide what happens to their children because they gave birth",

I literally never said that so Idk why you're pretending I did. You seem to be really fond of strawmen.

you will rob the child of agency if it suits women as you've shown time and time again.

Time and time again...where?

Here: (The woman is responsible, as SHE DID IT, indifference to abuse doesn't make you innocent it makes you complicit) "Sure. Lots of women are indifferent and do it because their husband wants them too."

Again, I was listing one of many reasons that people choose to circumcise. I never said that those women aren't responsible. In fact I said exactly the opposite. " I agree that if a woman does it for that reason, she's just as much responsible as if she does it for any other reason"

Denying baby boys the right to bodily autonomy while screaming about how important bodily autonomy is - it's telling these women to practice what they preach.

So...is circumcision not as bad if it's just circumcision to you? It's better if it's just denying baby boys the right to bodily autonomy??

The focus isn't "solely" on women, but in this case women are the decision makers in most cases and so they need to realize that it's their responsibility to stop this.

Again, what makes you think women are the sole decision makers in most cases?

Men are victims and as victims they will rationalize their abuse, it's time for women to show men some compassion.

Ah here we go. Finally a reason you feel it makes sense to only focus on the women here. Why are you denying circumcised men agency? You're saying that their decision to circumcise their son isn't as big of a deal as if it's a woman because they're just "rationalizing their abuse". That's bullshit. Why are you refusing to hold men responsible?

[–]FunctioningFully2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The comic doesn't have to say "This is the only way circumcision occurs and there are no other causes". The rhetoric speaks for itself.

No, that's your faulty inference of the comic at fault. It is an absolute fact that women are the majority of decision makers regarding circumcision and that there is a gap in the understanding of consent. Seeking to close this gap isn't "bad rhetoric" it's absolutely necessary to saving baby boys from future torture at the hands of said individuals.

Nothing absolutely nothing in this comic insinuates that women are the only ones responsible, your bias doesn't change reality.

That doesn't make sense. You can call something hypocritical, but you can't "blame" hypocrisy for something.

Hypocrisy is caused by a gap in reasoning, it is this gap in reasoning that at's fault. The core of the problem is that society, spurred on by Feminist patriarchal theory, does not think of Men and Boys as human beings on equal standing.

Denying women bodily autonomy is the most 'egregious of crimes' to society but denying it to men and boys is due course. Women need to be made aware of this hole in their thought process.

So...is circumcision not as bad if it's just circumcision to you? It's better if it's just denying baby boys the right to bodily autonomy??

Rape is denying a person bodily autonomy but it's also an egregious horrible act. I'd say strapping a baby boy down and cutting him while he writhes in agony is pretty goddamn bad. I never used the word "Just" so I'd appreciate if you would stop projecting your views onto me.

Ah here we go. Finally a reason you feel it makes sense to only focus on the women here.

Because the women are the ones making the decision as I've previously told you about 1000 times.

Why are you denying circumcised men agency? You're saying that their decision to circumcise their son isn't as big of a deal as if it's a woman because they're just "rationalizing their abuse". That's bullshit. Why are you refusing to hold men responsible?

You need to read about mental trauma, things like Stockholm Syndrome exist for a reasoning. Said men are absolutely responsible for their choices but they're also victims of tremendous abuse that permanently affects the brain. "Peer pressure" isn't a mental outcome of trauma, it's a pathetic excuse given by /u/servicemaster.

The onus is on the women here as they are the ones making the decision and unfortunately - due to the horrible abuse perpetrated against them many men are simply not up to the task of admitting their mothers were child abusers. You also have to keep in mind that society pushes a narrative in which women can never do wrong, just as /u/servicemaster implied when women do something wrong it's "mens fault".

To the rest of your points I mistook you for /u/servicemaster, your views are so similar and your writing style the same that I mistook you to be the same individual. That was my mistake, although the two of you are eerily similar.

[–]Servicemaster1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Servicemaster -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your this/that, black/white attitude is detrimental to progress unless you have a fucking gun. Do you have a gun? Are you ready to shoot a deflective cunt over this? No? Then calm the fuck down.

You have that same attitude, it's also rather ironic as your hatred of white people is clearly "black/white".

When is the last time a man gave birth out of his cock? Never? Then it seems women do have a right to what happens to their baby after it is created and then pushed out of them.

Wow, you are a monster. How dare you insinuate that a woman may mutilate and torture her child just because she gave birth to it, I suppose women who wholeheartedly support FGM get your support as well?

And this may come as a surprise to you but plenty of mothers are not "grown ass woman". They're raped teenagers. Children. Maybe it's you who needs to do the growing.

Plenty as in a fraction of a fraction of a percent. I think it's pretty clear he wasn't talking about child rape - something very common in the areas of the world where circumcision is most common, though they're unfortunately not "white" so you don't care about them it seems.

YOU are the one who used the term "Demonizing Women" so it was YOU who first excluded the possibility of such extremes, don't be a disingenuous douche-bag it makes you look foolish. He was clearly only responding to women, not to the extreme cases.

And maybe if you proofread it'd give you a chance to calm down.

I don't know if he's rabidly angry or not, but attacking grammar is evidence that you have no argument.

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I'm female and super against circumcision. My boyfriend wont do it if I insist but doesn't see the issue himself. My point is many women are agai st it and many men are for it, so why demonize a woman for your point? This isnt men's rights so much as it's against women.

Many men are for it because they have been mutilated and don't want to believe their parents hurt them, what is womens excuse? Apparently violating consent is okay if it's "Peer pressure", what a sick couple of individuals you are.

Where are your cries of demonization with movements like "Yes all Men" and "Kill all men" and "Don't be that guy"? I agree with the sentiment Feminism is a hate movement, maybe you women should look inward before you start complaining about demonization. No one here is saying that all women are monsters, but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of women will inflict this on their children and then people like you will come along and abdicate all responsibility "Oh but they're just poor innocent helpless women succumbing to peer pressure! Besides everyone else is doing it!".

You're an awful person.

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You really like twisting words. The original point was that women arent the root of circumcision and that it's only around due to old outdated customs. Nothing about women's choice making.

Of course women aren't the root, it was originally a religious custom, but women are perpetuating it and that perpetuation needs to stop. The women are the ones primarily making these decisions about baby boys and it's that reason that they need to be held accountable, they have to realize the significance of what they do.

Dude, who hurt you?

Like most victims of circumcision that would be my mother, many mothers have done the same to their offspring, I don't understand how you think the women who have effectively said "Take my son, strap him down, forcibly retract his skin, sever it with no anesthetic, and give me back the broken baby" while giving no concern to the baby's consent bear no responsibility. All the mothers who have had their baby boys die from circumcision and the baby boys who experienced penile loss and death first hand, they know the severity of consequences that can occur.

Women need to know that consent applies to their baby too, because that body is not theirs and never was.

The only response to "Do you want to circumcise" should be "God no, absolutely not, it's not my body and it would be horribly wrong."

[–]BirthdayFunTimez0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FunctioningFully1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So because mommy hurt you, you gotta hate all women

Less than 30% of the world is circumcised, I don't hate "all women" I don't even hate the ones who make the choice, I do however hate their choice and want them to accept responsibility so they can make better ones.

Apparently wanting women to make better choices means I hate them, news to me.

Wanna fix it? Go educate instead of acting like this towards people who already disagree with circumcision.

I'm educating you right now, I'm teaching that you don't just ignore circumcision when women are doing it. Women aren't above criticism and when they are hypocrites and do things wrong we should correct them.

Neither I nor the comic ever said "All women", the women responsible for the decision are the ones who should feel guilt over it, all other women should sleep peacefully knowing they did nothing wrong.

When I have kids they wont be circumcised because I chose not to do so.

DING DING DING. We have a breakthrough. You'll be the one who made the choice and therefore none of my criticisms about the women circumcising their baby boys applies to you. Gee it's almost like it's not "Demonizing women" so much as it is holding women who do horrible things accountable for it, and making them recognize what they've done so they can make good choices - oh wait I forgot we're not allowed to do that as it pushes the idea that women aren't infallible.

Your argument:

"You're criticizing a subset of women who make bad choices for their babies subjecting them to harm and abuse, this is an attack on all women. Why are demonizing all women by saying that women who make bad choices should be held accountable?"

That's really all that matters here. If we both are against it, then I have no clue why you need to be this way towards me other than the fact I said I'm female.

You agreed with u/servicemaster who attempted to deflect from the reality that women who choose to circumcise are at fault for their babies circumcision. They are the ones who surrendered their children to victimization. "peer pressure" and "everyone doing it" are not excuses, if everyone was smothering their baby with a pillow would women be just? No, of course not.

I don't care whether you're male or female, u/servicemaster appears to be male from my reading of his posts, I care that you defend, protect, and deflect away from the reality that women have a choice and that they should be held accountable for making the right one.

When women choose the right thing they should be given kudos, when they do the wrong thing they should feel ashamed of themselves.

Women are not perfect, they are not infallible, they are not ignorant, they are not stupid, they are not puppets. They are full fledged individuals - grown adults - capable of making their own decisions.

Women have a lot of power here as society usually places them above criticism (as u/servicemaster has shown) and they are the ones who usually get asked the "Do you want to circumcise" question. We should expect them to do the right thing because they are capable of it.

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Isn't this guy a nazi?

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I wasn’t even referring to the terminator comic. Where did I mention that comic?

Sorry I got you mixed up with the other guy.

I have just seen much of Stonetoss’s work in the past, and he has plenty of source material to make that conclusion with.

In your opinion maybe, but you are a biased individual. Taking someone's comical work and digging through it to find evidence to claim they're a nazi is more indicative of your desire for them to be a nazi rather than their actual nazi status.

Again, if your entire statement of "nazism" relies on comics then your argument is pathetic and insulting to those who actually suffered under the horrors of the nazi regime.

(Even though the terminator comic is pretty condemning. We have no way of knowing if the character in question’s arm is straight or bent under the lava, so maybe get your head out of your ass.)

You need to stop huffing paint, your argument here is incredibly pathetic.

Here is the original scene from the Terminator:

https://youtu.be/TfZYo3EVyuY?t=177

Note that the man's arm is bent as he goes straight into the lava. It is a verbatim translation into comic form.

The fact that you are comparing drawing a comic in which no one is injured and no fascism takes place, in a panel in which the drawing is true to the movie reference - to ACTUAL Nazism shows that you are pathetic individuals who let your hatred of an individual you disagree with politically blind you to morality.

You're using the word "nazi" as a cudgel against anyone you disagree with politically and that is disgusting, you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

You need to do some serious introspection you sad deranged little man.

Edit: Also I find it cute that you have a second reddit account dedicated to posting with you, it's frankly adorable. It is abundantly clear that /u/Daberman69 and yourself are the same person.

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ah well, here's another anti semitic comic by him. you'll notice that the character in the 2nd and 3rd panels is the only character drawn with a nose, counting basically all his stonetoss comics. (redpanels are a seperate comic with a different artstyle)

[–]FunctioningFully 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

ah well, here's another anti semitic comic by him. you'll notice that the character in the 2nd and 3rd panels is the only character drawn with a nose, counting basically all his stonetoss comics.

Anti-semitic how? Are big nose jokes illegal now? Are jews above humor?

Apparently drawing a jew with a big nose makes you a Nazi, didn't realize comedy was equivalent to putting people in gas chambers. If racial jokes make you a nazi, then you're going to have to draw and quarter just about every comedian in the country.

On second thought you're right clearly the man is a subhuman monster who should be put down before he gets out of control. Hitler has nothing on this guy, I mean hitler never made fun of big noses, only an animal would do that.

You're not watering down the term Nazi at all, I'm sure all the people reduced to ash look at you and say "This guy, this guy won't let people make big nose jokes, he's the hero we needed".

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I don’t understand why this is an argument or what the advantages of not circumcising it are.

Well, not getting trauma, no risk of excessive scarification or permanent damage, higher number of nerve endings and so on would all be advantages. But that is not the point. You made an argument about bullying, and I would like to make a point about the same. Hope you can then see why I would consider your view flawed.

In my country, circumcision is not routinely performed, unless you're a jew or muslim. I have never heard of anyone being bullied for being uncircumcised. I have seen a guy get made fun of for being circumcised. Now, that happened only once. Mostly, I think, because we don't have public showers/public nudity. And so the problem is really not circumcision, is it? It's being different, and everyone becoming aware of it. This is neither a pro or con of the procedure itself, merely a situation where kids are cunts to different kids. And that can be resolved by continuing Male Genital Mutilation, because the parents had it (which is exactly the reason and common argument for the female counterpart in countries where it is common), or making people aware that it is not necessary, and avoid needless MGM. When not being circumcised is the common thing, most arguments for it disappear.

Now, sure, there are medical reasons for circumcision, and that is fine. I would in no way discriminate against someone who had to get that. But routine circumcision is not needed, doesn't really help in any way, and has the potential to harm. Rationally, people should be against. Arguing from tradition is the same argument being made for FGM, and not a good position to be in, don't you agree? And the aesthetic argument opens a very slippery slope: say, you like the look and so does everyone, so why not circumcise? Well, most people also like the look of piercings. Why not do that to babies? Why not make some kick-ass tattoos? Shit, you could do some gnarly scarification work! They won't even remember the pain later.

You may not agree with me. That is fine. But if you think why you keep to your position honestly, and without hypocrisy, and accept its consequences, then I will respect your preference and opinion. It's just that many people, when they examine their views on MGM closely, are not able to do that, and get defensive.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All of these make sense to me. I explained to the other guys I was speaking with that in a country where circumcision is not the norm, someone may be bullied for being circumcised. I live in the US where a hefty majority is circumcised. I admitted that the problem here is with the people and society that shun those who are different. But still a parent may not want to hand those bullies more ammunition by not having the circumcision done (in a place like the US where it’s the norm). Just to be super clear (since the other guys just could not understand, I don’t mean to argue in favor of MGM. I’m not arguing in favor of either side as I have few opinions on the matter. All I’m saying is I Personally am glad I was circumcised. Anything beyond that is Devil’s Advocacy.

About 50% of uncircumcised men at some point in their life will experience illness (of varying seriousness) related to their foreskin. Personally I think the chances of some sort of botched circumcision are low enough that these aspects at least even each other out. But again I’m not intending to argue one way or the other.

I would like to say thank you for acting reasonably and looking for an actual conversation here. Of all the communities on Reddit Men’s Rights is about as extreme as it gets when it comes to being an intolerable echo chamber.

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One of them being that there is no benefit to being raped.

nor is there to circumcision...

There are benefits to circumcision.

no there's not...

Cleaning is less work for example.

by that logic, lets just remove all your skin and hair and your nose and ears too because muh cleeneee is so hard.

I’ve mentioned issues with bullying in a few comments.

if you are bullying a guy for having more of their dick than you do its a pretty fucking dumb insult. Also, if they want to pick on you they will regardless of how much of your dick you have lopped off.

I feel like trauma is not really formed around being circumcised.

feelings =/= facts.

I’m sure there’s a few sparse examples, I don’t mean to diminish that, I’m just saying people who are raped or sexually assaulted find the experience traumatic.

what part of "cutting a child's penis with a knife" isn't sexual assault or doesn't sound traumatic?

I don’t think it’s fair to equate rape to circumcision.

ok, but at least sexual assault with a deadly weapon.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People bully those who they perceive as different. On this day and age, unfortunately lack of circumcision is different. That caused the bullying. Eliminate that factor and the bullying doesn’t happen. The bullying, of course, is the problem here, but again all I’m saying is that I personally am glad I was circumcised. Do you know (of) people who are actually traumatized by their circumcision procedure? Keep in mind there’s a huge difference between wishing it hadn’t happened and being traumatized by it. Being traumatized without memories of the event or its context is difficult. Before somebody says “so rufied people getting raped isn’t traumatizing?!” that’s not what I’m saying. They are aware of what happened before and after. They are aware of what happened to them and the malicious intent behind it. They have no memories of the actual event, and as such are not traumatized by the actual penetration or other specific actions, they are traumatized by the situation and knowledge of what happened. With circumcision as a baby you don’t even have that context. Additionally, there is a difference between sexual assault and genital mutilation. One has sexual intent. One doesn’t. I’m pretty sure my surgeon didn’t cut my foreskin off so he could sexually assault me.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/01/15/female-genital-mutilation-sexual-activity/1033396001/

“even if female genital mutilation were proven, it would not meet the definition for ‘sexual activity.’”

[–]PowerToAnnihilate2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People bully those who they perceive as different.

yes and the solution isn't to change yourself to not be "different" btw the US is below 50% cut rate right now.

On this day and age, unfortunately lack of circumcision is different.

wrong. 80+% of the world is intact.

That caused the bullying. Eliminate that factor and the bullying doesn’t happen.

That's just not true, nor is it justification to cut parts off

I’m saying is that I personally am glad I was circumcised.

why, because you think that's why you didn't get bullied? WTF

Do you know (of) people who are actually traumatized by their circumcision procedure?

Well I attempted suicide at 16 because I found out about what was done to me on top of a bunch of other issues I was going through. That was almost my last straw and made me feel unvalued completely.

Keep in mind there’s a huge difference between wishing it hadn’t happened and being traumatized by it. Being traumatized without memories of the event or its context is difficult.

not if the trauma is from the end result and the problems associated with circumcision, especially if its botched.

Before somebody says “so rufied people getting raped isn’t traumatizing?!” that’s not what I’m saying.

that kinda is what you are saying.

hey are aware of what happened before and after. They are aware of what happened to them and the malicious intent behind it.

so if they are date raped then they can't feel trauma from it lol

They have no memories of the actual event, and as such are not traumatized by the actual penetration or other specific actions, they are traumatized by the situation and knowledge of what happened.

Right just like victims of circumcision.

With circumcision as a baby you don’t even have that context.

yes you do. The context is that society didn't feel like protecting you legally like they did with your sister.

Additionally, there is a difference between sexual assault and genital mutilation.

agreed. Sexual assault doesn't rob people of parts of their genitals.

One has sexual intent. One doesn’t. I’m pretty sure my surgeon didn’t cut my foreskin off so he could sexually assault me.

Sexual assault Classification and external resources Specialty emergency medicine ICD-10 T74.2 ICD-9-CM E960.1 MedlinePlus 001955 eMedicine article/806120 MeSH D011902 [edit on Wikidata] Sexual assault is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.[1] It is a form of sexual violence which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.[1][2][3]

fits that definition. Its torture of the person in a sexual manner and fondles the genitals (and cuts them) without consent.

“even if female genital mutilation were proven, it would not meet the definition for ‘sexual activity.’”

no but it is sexual assault. Or assault with a deadly weapon.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Performing a surgery on a sexual organ is not the same thing as fondling genitals. You are doing a really great job of cherry picking information while missing the point. Like quoting me about the rape topics and then criticizing me for the exact thing I avoided saying. I’m sorry that you found the surgery so traumatizing, but I’m not entirely sure I understand how or why. Circumcision is done by most people because it is the “normal” thing to do now. Circumcised people are more common, and as such uncircumcised people are “strange.” That sucks, it’s unfortunate. But people have their babies circumcised so that they can feel normal because they are valued. Again, I’m sure there are outliers and some awful cases as in every story. Either way it’s really obvious to me that neither of us is convincing the other of anything. I’m not gonna bother arguing further, especially in a community so stupidly hostile towards opposing views as this one. I hope you have a good day man

[–]PowerToAnnihilate2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Performing a surgery on a sexual organ is not the same thing as fondling genitals.

You mean cosmetic procedure since that's what it's listed as.

You are doing a really great job of cherry picking information while missing the point. Like quoting me about the rape topics and then criticizing me for the exact thing I avoided saying

Quotes?

I’m sorry that you found the surgery so traumatizing, but I’m not entirely sure I understand how or why.

Then you haven't been listening very hard.

Circumcised people are more common, and as such uncircumcised people are “strange.” That sucks, it’s unfortunate.

That's not true. 80% of the world is intact

But people have their babies circumcised so that they can feel normal because they are valued.

So boys aren't born perfect or with value?

Either way it’s really obvious to me that neither of us is convincing the other of anything. I’m not gonna bother arguing further, especially in a community so stupidly hostile towards opposing views as this one. I hope you have a good day man

In other words "I'm not going to listen to you because reasons"

Bye mate. Don't cut your future kids

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A) how does classification as a cosmetic surgery matter in any way? It doesn’t change the actual goal of the surgery nor does it change what happens during it. Classifying it as cosmetic doesn’t magically make this sexual assault.

B) Quotes.

C) “You haven’t been listening very hard.” You haven’t explained it. How am I supposed to understand something that you haven’t explained?

D) What world are we talking about here? Are you trying to put this in the context of the entire planet? Because the legalese that you’ve been using are specific to the US. I have been arguing in the context of the US where rates are much higher according to this CBS news article which states that the rate of circumcision in babies in the US was 77% in 2010.

E) Oh boy you really go for low blows when arguing don’t you? Is that honestly how you interpret my views and words? I am literally speaking in hypotheticals here. I personally don’t give a single fuck whether or not someone is circumcised and it doesn’t change how I view them at all. But it does for a lot of other people. If parents don’t want their kids to be seen as different by others, they may get the child circumcised to avoid that. Any interpretation beyond those words is you being wildly inaccurate in your assumptions about my own philosophies.

F) Do you think you’re listening? Do you think you’re being a reasonable, rational human being? You have your opinions. I respect that. I have my opinions, and you very clearly have no respect for that. So why exactly should I continue? What reason do I have to interact with you in any way?

[–]PowerToAnnihilate2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A) how does classification as a cosmetic surgery matter in any way? It doesn’t change the actual goal of the surgery nor does it change what happens during it. Classifying it as cosmetic doesn’t magically make this sexual assault.

No other cosmetic surgery is legal to do on infants unless they have severe deformities

B.)

the quotes don't really explain what you meant by the vague phrase "You are doing a really great job of cherry picking information while missing the point. Like quoting me about the rape topics and then criticizing me for the exact thing I avoided saying" explain what phrases like "rare topics" and what the "same thing I avoided saying" etc mean please.

C) “You haven’t been listening very hard.” You haven’t explained it. How am I supposed to understand something that you haven’t explained?

because I feel that I wasn't considered worthy of keeping my whole body. I wasn't given a choice and that is not OK. My body, my choice. It was denied and my sex life has suffered because of it.

D) What world are we talking about here? Are you trying to put this in the context of the entire planet? Because the legalese that you’ve been using are specific to the US. I have been arguing in the context of the US where rates are much higher according to this CBS news article which states that the rate of circumcision in babies in the US was 77% in 2010.

So because the US does it, its now "more common." Not how that works mate. Also popularity =/= ok.

I personally don’t give a single fuck whether or not someone is circumcised and it doesn’t change how I view them at all. But it does for a lot of other people.

so your solution is to roll over like a beaten mut and just let people do it? I'm sure you would have been a wonderful person during the civil rights movement.

If parents don’t want their kids to be seen as different by others, they may get the child circumcised to avoid that.

but not if they feel the same for their girls... hey girls with small boobs may be BULLIED. Time for Sally's breast implants right?

F) Do you think you’re listening? Do you think you’re being a reasonable, rational human being?

yes.

You have your opinions. I respect that. I have my opinions, and you very clearly have no respect for that.

I do not respect your opinion that you can take a knife to another's body, correct. I am under no obligation to meet in the middle here or say that your opinion deserves respect. It doesn't.

So why exactly should I continue? What reason do I have to interact with you in any way?

No clue. You obviously are set in your child cutting ways for the betterment of bullies everywhere or something. Fuck off for all I care.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It must be nice being able to devolve an adult conversation to insults and still feel good about yourself.

The fact that it’s classified as a cosmetic surgery doesn’t change the fact that it definitively is not in reality a cosmetic surgery. It’s classification doesn’t matter because it doesn’t have any bearing on the intent of the procedure.

When I say “rape (not rare) topics I mean my references to ruffees and being raped while unconscious. You referenced my statements by quoting them and immediately ignoring my other words. I said “that’s not what I’m saying” and you replied “that kinda is what you’re saying” before reading the rest of the statement. Pretty damn immature.

Thank you for explaining this part to me. As I said before, I did not understand the emotions behind it. While I personally did not experience these emotions myself when I learned about it, now that you’ve explained yourself I can picture the situation more clearly.

As I stated before, I was under the impression we were arguing within the context of the US. Why would we be arguing this in the context of societies where circumcision doesn’t occur? It wouldn’t make any sense. I never stated that this point of view was okay either. I have repeatedly stated that I don’t care one way or the other, and don’t support either side. Have you ever heard of a devil’s advocate? I am presenting the possibility of a dissenting opinion, not supporting said opinion.

There are a lot of issues I feel very strongly about and will fight for with pride. Civil rights is one of them. Gun control is one of them. Circumcision is not. You don’t get out there and fight the good fight in every single argument that crops up. This is one that I don’t feel strongly about, so no, I’m not gonna fight for one side or the other. You seem to be operating under the assumption that I think circumcision is good. I would advise you read my above comments again about not sharing that opinion, and would again remind you that all I am trying to say is that I personally am glad I was circumcised as a baby.

Talking about the boobs thing, again I will repeat that I am not supporting that side of the argument. I am not saying it is or should be okay. Please stop assuming that.

No. You make way too many false assumptions and have handled this argument for too immaturely for me to believe this.

And AGAIN my opinion is not that it is okay. That is not what I am saying nor have I ever said that. I do not understand why you can’t seem to get such a simple idea in your head. That’s not the argument being presented, so stop putting words in my mouth.

“Your child cutting ways”... ._. Are you serious? Are you actually being serious right now? And you think you’re being reasonable. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION, MY STANCE, OR MY ARGUMENT. People like you are why the internet is such a pathetically hostile place, where people are so ridiculously unwilling to change their minds or be open to the possibility other views. It’s really disappointing to be honest.

Also, the reason I’m trying to leave the conversation is because I’m at work now and can’t reply consistently. If you still feel the need to drag this on I’ll get back to you when I can.

[–]PowerToAnnihilate2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It must be nice being able to devolve an adult conversation to insults and still feel good about yourself.

oh so we are just going to ignore all the points I made. Cool.

The fact that it’s classified as a cosmetic surgery doesn’t change the fact that it definitively is not in reality a cosmetic surgery.

that rape wasn't really rape. That theft wasn't really theft. You are embarrassing yourself.

Why would we be arguing this in the context of societies where circumcision doesn’t occur?

because they seemingly don't kowtow to bullies that you stood your entire argument on.

Civil rights is one of them. Gun control is one of them. Circumcision is not.

Because reasons. lol

You don’t get out there and fight the good fight in every single argument that crops up. This is one that I don’t feel strongly about, so no, I’m not gonna fight for one side or the other.

just sit in the middle watching more and more boys be needlessly cut. Great. Real hero right here.

I would advise you read my above comments again about not sharing that opinion, and would again remind you that all I am trying to say is that I personally am glad I was circumcised as a baby.

for a reason you haven't really explained. You being happy you are missing part of your dick doesn't mean that others are and that it should be legal. Right?

Talking about the boobs thing, again I will repeat that I am not supporting that side of the argument. I am not saying it is or should be okay. Please stop assuming that.

not disagreeing with it means you support the status quo...

Are you serious? Are you actually being serious right now? And you think you’re being reasonable. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION, MY STANCE, OR MY ARGUMENT.

simple question. Will you cut your child?

People like you are why the internet is such a pathetically hostile place, where people are so ridiculously unwilling to change their minds or be open to the possibility other views. It’s really disappointing to be honest.

me not budging on the issue of people taking a knife to boy's genitals is disappointing? That's just horrible and i know you wouldn't say the same thing if we replaced boy with girl.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your first response: exact same as your responses to the rape topics discussion earlier. Responded to invalidate my argument without reading it. Again, very mature of you.

Your second response, I straight up have no idea what you’re saying. The medical classification of a surgery is not the same thing as the classification of a crime. You see circumcision as a crime. It’s a crime whether or not it’s classified as cosmetic then.

“Because they seemingly don’t kowtow to bullies that you’ve based your entire argument on” ...what

“Because reasons. Lol” do you consider that an argument or a valid point? Tell me do you have strong feelings about every issue in the world? What are they? Are they all well educated opinions? Let me answer for you. No, you do not have strong opinions about every issue in the world. And if you did (you don’t.) they would not be well educated. That’s why we don’t do everything by referendum. It’s not physically possible to have all the necessary information.

“Watch more and more boys be needlessly cut.” Will do. Not possible to fight every fight. What have you done to stop civil wars in Africa, or drug cartel activities in Mexico? You’ve sat there and watched it happen. Don’t act like you have some high horse to sit on.

How many times do I need to say that I’m not saying it’s alright for everybody to cut their kids foreskin off? How many times do you think I’ve said it? At least four in the last comment. You’re delusional. You’re making up arguments after being told repeatedly that it’s not the case. I am happy I was circumcised. That has no bearing on anyone else and my opinion does not extend beyond my personal experience.

“Not disagreeing with it means you support the status quo.” Nope. Supporting the status quo would mean I support the status quo. I have no strong opinions. I don’t support the status quo, nor do I support its opposition.

I won’t have a child. That’s a lot of work and boy is it expensive here. If I was to have a child I don’t know whether or not I would cut it. That’s something I would have to discuss with my wife. But I think I’ll have a vasectomy long before that crops up.

Your stance on the issue is not disappointing. Your unwillingness to consider an opposing point of view is. Learn the difference.

[–]PowerToAnnihilate2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your first response: exact same as your responses to the rape topics discussion earlier. Responded to invalidate my argument without reading it. Again, very mature of you.

how?

Your second response, I straight up have no idea what you’re saying. The medical classification of a surgery is not the same thing as the classification of a crime. You see circumcision as a crime. It’s a crime whether or not it’s classified as cosmetic then.

yes. Its a crime to cut people's bodies. Its also a crime to do genital mutilation and the 14th in the US is the equal protection clause

“Because they seemingly don’t kowtow to bullies that you’ve based your entire argument on” ...what

the other countries don't cut but they aren't bullied. Therefore the US is just using that as a retarded excuse.

“Because reasons. Lol” do you consider that an argument or a valid point?

I was asking you what reasons you had for saying that since you (again) just said shit and didn't justify WHY.

And if you did (you don’t.) they would not be well educated. That’s why we don’t do everything by referendum. It’s not physically possible to have all the necessary information.

being on a men's rights board and being uncaring about circumcision seems dumb (considering its a predominate men's rights issue)

“Watch more and more boys be needlessly cut.” Will do. Not possible to fight every fight.

Not even local civil rights fights. Sad.

What have you done to stop civil wars in Africa, or drug cartel activities in Mexico? You’ve sat there and watched it happen. Don’t act like you have some high horse to sit on.

If those were going on in my country I sure would have. If promoting civil rights for men on a fucking men's rights board is too much for you then you should leave.

Your unwillingness to consider an opposing point of view is.

to cut children's genitals and to not cut children's genitals are not perspectives that deserve equal respect. I'm done. We clearly jumped the shark.

[–]WaffleKing1101 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don’t understand how you don’t understand the first point. You said before reading my entire comment “oh so we are just going to ignore all the points I made. Cool.” I very obviously did not do this, as I then replied point-by-point. That is the behavior I refer to here as immature.

For your second point, it is illegal to cut people randomly. It is not illegal to perform legally sanctioned surgeries on a patient. I understand that you believe this circumcision surgery should be illegal. I am not presenting any opinion regarding that. But as it stands, having a male baby’s penis circumcised is not illegal.

Let’s use a hypothetical country here—say Belgium—where most people don’t have their babies circumcised, but that circumcision isn’t illegal. Parents who may otherwise want to circumcise their sons could change their minds based on the potential for the circumcised sons to face discrimination from the society that largely does not do circumcisions. It depends on what is or isn’t seen as normal by that society.

Regarding your justification for saying “Because reasons lol”, if you want reasons ask for them. Don’t speak like goddamn middle schooler who thinks they’re hot shit cause they’re too stupid for the debate team to argue with.

...It’s possible to be passionate about some men’s rights and not others. I know plenty of cases of fathers being discriminated against in divorce courts that have affected friends and family. I have VERY strong opinions regarding men’s representation in sexual assault and rape cases. I DON’T have strong opinions about this particular issue. If you have a problem with that I think that’s a bit ridiculous, and not something I can or will do anything to change, so it’s not even worth arguing.

“Not even local civil rights fights. Sad.” I’ve been to at least 5 protests in my home town for women’s rights, voting rights, immigrant rights, etc. you don’t know what Local is in this case, and you cannot extend this particular issue to all civil rights issues. It’s not all one big clump.

Again, this doesn’t mean I don’t care about men’s rights. This is a discussion board, and if what you want is an echo chamber I fell really bad for you and your mind. You’ve got to be one seriously narrow minded individual to want to not encounter any differing opinions in your journeys. THAT is pretty sad if you ask me.

Again, have a good day my man. I wish we could have had a civil, adult discussion about this.

[–]imguralbumbot1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]ItsBobGray -6 points-5 points-4 points 7 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Personally, I wouldn't be okay if someone told me I was raped before I formed the memory. I'm okay with being snipped though.

So you are admitting you are logically inconsistent?

I think it looks nice

personally I don't look at baby genitals at all... but you do you I guess.

plus my wife doesn't have to peel back my stinky cheese flesh in order to suck on my army helmet.

yeah that phrase isn't biased at all...

You know that you can get blown with the foreskin up right, also its the most sensative part so she could be sucking on that too. Also, its self lubricated so she might not have to suck on it at all as a form of foreplay.

Yeah, I probably cried, hell, screamed, but now I don't have a dick that looks like a droopy platypus

your body shaming of men who have more complete dicks than you is just sad tbh, especially when you are using that to justify MORE CHILDREN having their penises cut apart.

[–]ItsBobGray -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

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[–]PowerToAnnihilate3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Firstly, I upvoted your last comment and this will be my LAST one. But, I need to explain this clearly.

i just don't feel mutilated though

doesn't matter. It fits the definition therefore it is. So does something like sub-incision (bisection of the penis) but some people like it and do it to themselves.

so i don't respect when someone appears to be trying to make me feel like i am incomplete is all

I'm not trying to make you feel anything. I just was saying the facts that since you (and I) are missing your foreskin then your penis isn't complete. It's just a fact. I'm sorry that it upsets you to say it, but if I don't use the actual words or ideas that are REAL then it doesn't help anyone. I want to end circumcision so these uncomfortable truths must be spread and well known, no matter the emotional effects of me saying them.

Have a nice night mate.

[–]the_crx0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BoutchooQc-2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]PowerToAnnihilate6 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why can I orgasm and produce sperm like any other male?

because you have testicles.

Why can't you enjoy the gliding motion, produce pheromones or proper levels of mucousa? Because you are missing your foreskin.

Sealing itself or not, it's without consent so why not fight for that huh?

Because it doesn't remove 15 square inches of tissue... if you pierce your 6 year old's ears (something I'm not for btw) then they will be able to seal even if you keep her earnings in until shes like 15.

They don't remove the head/gland nor testicles

no, just the foreskin... the most sensitive part.

it's fonctional and for some girls more appealing (personal preference).

I like small tits. I guess I'll cut my daughter's breast nubs out since the other sex can determine what parts of the body you get to keep. right?

[–]BoutchooQc-1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are out of your mind, trapped in your own little world.

because....

Having testicles doesn't have anything to do with orgasming.

I think sperm comes from the balls. I'm sorry I revoke my meme card. It clearly comes from the bladder.

I enjoy everything related to stimuling my gland, but you wouldn't understand.

congratulations. A foreskin would make that more enjoyable.

Having skin means producing pheromones?

Having pheromone glans means being able to produce pheromones.

So does that mean I won't ever be able to mate again in my life? Oh no!

??? no it just means that you won't be able to produce sex pheromones which have a currently unknown impact on human pair bonding.

And for the tits, you don't understand the analogie

because.... why exactly?

Stay in your world and mind your own business

I will once people aren't legally allowed to remove parts of their children :)

[–]BoutchooQc1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Orgasming and producing sperm is two different things, one is the stimuli of the gland the other are the testicles.

and yet you said

Why can I orgasm and produce sperm like any other male?

as some kind of point.

How do YOU know it would be more enjoyable?

personally? Well I restore my foreskin, have been for 5+ years. Logically? Because the intact penis has more structures and nerve endings than the cut one. That means that unless every one of those structures are useless and nerve-dead (they aren't) then the intact penis has more sensativity.

also this study

The pheromones thing is pure bullshit and you know it, pheromones?

that's not an argument unless you can actually explain WHY its bullshit. Your speculation isn't an argument either.

Like if I miss 1% of it, girls will reject me and go for the fully scented pheromone alpha guy?

we don't know. And its more related to pair bonding (people staying together for a long time)

Your boss could be circumcised and you wouldn't know it because it does not change how a person behave.

actually if we look at crime stats circumcision = more crime rates... might have to do with damaging a person's genitals as their first thing in the world (the psychological damage from that is unstudied). We do know that the pain threshold for cut infants doesn't return to what it was before the mutilation though.

Mind your own business and fight for a better cause that will change the world. You are insane

implying ending the mass removal of parts of male genitals won't change the world. You are in denial.

[–]BoutchooQc1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

actually if we look at crime stats circumcision = more crime rates

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

I can orgasm, which means my head is not numb or less sensitive, the foreskin retracts when erect anyway. Both my testicles works flawlessly, no problem there. They did not forbid me to reproduce unlike FGM.

The pheromone thing is an "argument" you used just to add someting, but in reality is meaningless since we don't have any proof or facts that a piece of skin increases hormones or pheromones. Are we some kind of basic primal animals ?

the psychological damage from that is unstudied

I feel great, I/We are not some kind of disfigured monsters like you want us to believe. I am a functional human being comfortable in my own skin and I don't recall anything before I was 6 years old, so let alone 2 days.

So, a part from losing some nerves ending, what does it do ?
I can procreate, mate, date girls, eat, sleep, etc. Stop exaggerating and thinking it's the end of the world.

Put your strength in FGM where it can cause death and immense pain whilst "sealing" and "unsealing" the opening forcefully and the removal of the ENTIRE clitoris, not some skin around. (They don't remove the gland).

[–]PowerToAnnihilate1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can orgasm, which means my head is not numb or less sensitive

no it just means you can expel cum and feel something when you do.

the foreskin retracts when erect anyway.

yeah kinda throws out that whole "pretty dicc argument right?"

They did not forbid me to reproduce unlike FGM.

you do know that only infibulation inhibits reproduction. All other forms of FGM don't.

The pheromone thing is an "argument" you used just to add someting, but in reality is meaningless since we don't have any proof or facts that a piece of skin increases hormones or pheromones. Are we some kind of basic primal animals ?

yes we are basic primal animals. And anyone who has smelled or has had their partner's shirts knows what I mean.

I feel great, I/We are not some kind of disfigured monsters like you want us to believe.

well you are defending the cutting of MORE child dick so I would argue that that shows damage.

So, a part from losing some nerves ending, what does it do ?

already listed a few uses... protection from elements, natural lubrication, pheromones and sensitivity.

Compare that to the penis head which has 1 to 2 purposes (sensitivity that is less than the foreskin and a shovel to push or pull cum)

But you would be upset if someone cut off your glans... I think.

Put your strength in FGM where it can cause death and immense pain

MGM causes death too and its FUCKING LEGAL you mook.

"sealing" and "unsealing" the opening forcefully and the removal of the ENTIRE clitoris, not some skin around. (They don't remove the gland).

thats only one type of FGM. The other 3 types (labiaplasty, clitoral hood removal, pin prick on the clitoral hood) are less damaging than MGM and are felonies too.

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Always thought this issue was kinda a mute point. Yeah genital mutilation is bad...more so for females...but I'd be fucking pissed if my parents didn't have me circumcised at birth. Probably would have gotten a whole lot fewer BJs through life if mom and dad didn't insist on their catholic prerogatives.

I don't know how girls really feel about circumcised vs not,but I'imagine they'd be a whole lot less inclined to put my dick in their mouth if it was shrouded in foreskin...or you like have to ...pull it out? and then like push the skin out of the way to suck it...?

I don't know how that works the other way...but I'm glad I didn't have to find out or be turned down sex or something.

I know we need to grasp onto whatever we can as leverage to use against feminists, but I don't know about this one. I kinda think we should let it go. You grandsons will hate you lol. Walking into the doctors office at 25 and asking for a circumcision because no one will suck his dick.......lol. I'm sure his first thought while right before his dick gets to butchered with a scalpel as an adult will be "Gee, look how much progress men's rights groups have accomplished".

The female version of this topic is actually pretty horrific and their argument holds water.

[–]k0bra3eak7 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate5 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

but I'd be fucking pissed if my parents didn't ~~have me circumcised~~ cut off part of my penis at birth.

thats an odd sentiment...

Probably would have gotten a whole lot fewer BJs through life if mom and dad didn't insist on their catholic prerogatives.

firstly its not catholic to cut. Secondly, I guess all those european guys are just not getting any sex at all.

I don't know how girls really feel about circumcised vs not,but I'imagine they'd be a whole lot less inclined to put my dick in their mouth if it was shrouded in foreskin

That's not an argument... wut

or you like have to ...pull it out? and then like push the skin out of the way to suck it...?

they just put it all in their mouth. Not that hard.

I don't know how that works the other way...but I'm glad I didn't have to find out or be turned down sex or something.

Why do you assume you would be?

I kinda think we should let it go.

I will not let go of the issue of male genial mutilation. Its the biggest MRA cause.

You grandsons will hate you lol.

for not cutting off part of his penis?

Walking into the doctors office at 25 and asking for a circumcision because no one will suck his dick.

if (and that a HUGE IF) he does that it will be his choice. I know girls who got their labia trimmed. I guess we should do that to infant girls on the off chance some want to do it as an adult.

.lol. I'm sure his first thought while right before his dick gets to butchered with a scalpel as an adult

as opposed to it being ok to have it butchered with a scalpel when he is an infant and doesn't want it to happen?

The female version of this topic is actually pretty horrific and their argument holds water.

cutting genitals is NOTHING LIKE cutting genitals. Absurd I say

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You've still given no source to uncircumcision being the cause for lower stds in Europe.

That's shifting the goal posts. If circumcision has no effect on STDs then thats one less reason (out of the -8 reasons) to do it.

here btw that's the STD chart.

Eliminating the chance for bacteria to collect between the foreskin and penis.

1.) women have a bacteria filled hole for genitals

2.) people are more bacteria than human cells. Bactria isn't bad.

Lower chance for HIV by 60% according to the world Health Organization.

lower chance by 60% stat when compared to intact men. Meaning you lower a 1% chance to like a .4% chance. That's not worth cutting off the genitals of adults, let alone infants who aren't sexually active and CANT CONSENT.

Also, (and its stupid I have to say this) you CAN get HIV if you are circumcised. Its very possible. That's not justification at all.

[–]EvanOakenShield0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate7 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That std chart doesnt provide any reasons for the lower std rates.

yeah I mentioned that.

You assuming its because theyre uncircumcised is foolish.

no, I am saying that it PROVES that circumcision doesn't really mean shit for hygiene.

Anaerobic bacteria is between the foreskin and penis in uncircumcised men, and the environment that region provides is perfect for anaerobic bacteria, increasing the chance of HIV.

ok so why not wear a condom or... not have sex with HIV+ people? Its not like HIV is particularly common if you do both of those things.

And sure the chance is already low, but you'd be foolish to deny an opportunity to be safer.

hey. You likely will get prostate cancer. Why not remove the prostate! Hey, girls will likely get breast cancer, remove the boobs. Hey, you likely will get a heart attack, cut it out. Hey...

Bad justification for depriving a person of their whole body.

If you were in a coma and you had a 1% chance of dying, you shouldn't care if i give you medicine that reduces the chance to. 4%

false equivalence because living with a foreskin has many benefits too.

pherimones
more sensation from sex
protection from elements and drying out

you are acting like the ONLY difference is this HIV change and... even if it was.... and your coma example was the basis guess what?

Doctors CANNOT administer something to a person in a coma, or save their life, or cut off any other part or even harvest the organs of the dead without consent FROM THE ACTUAL PERSON (before they go into a coma etc) or a person that the ACTUAL PERSON appoints as their speaker (which also causes legal hang-ups)

I never said the chance of getting HIV is 0% with circumcision. So it was stupid to say that.

I never said you did say that. I was just saying that saying it reduces stds (less than other, less invasive and more common means) is not true on a wide scale.

[–]FunctioningFully 13 points14 points15 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[+]carbot1171 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Why would you choice ever be to get the mucousal membrane sleeve cut off your penis?

That is there for a lot of different reasons dude.

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I'm sorry I came off hard, I dont want to be in an argument, just a talk. I don't feel depressed about it because other people told me I should, or because whatever. It's because most of the guys I've been with have been intact (gayy), and I like the look better, and yeah, it was cut off without my choice. It's because there's so many benefits to having it, and all the benefits listed pro-circumcision can be acheived another way. Like Cleanliness (clean it) Lower risk of STI's/HIV (condom), lower risk of UTI (clean it and remove it IF NECESSARY not as preventative measures) the look (personal preference), to fit in/be the same as dad/family tradition (most dicks ive seen irl have been intact, I barely have ever seen my dad's dick anyway, and the tradition only goes back as far as my dad's dad being cut) feels better/women like it more (YOUR dick should pleasure YOU first and your partner second, and we shouldn't cut baby boys for women's pleasure; men circumcised and men almost always agree there's a 70-90% decrease in pleasure, plus the glans should be moist, not kernalized and dry), it won't retract (it shouldn't until puberty, and stretching could fix phimosis when it won't retract) and "cutting it off (ie. his most sensitive parts) as a baby because he won't remember the pain" (would be unexcuasble in any other medical situation where passout drugs aren't used, and they are conscious and fighting back)

The point is, I'm depressed about not having my foreskin in the same way someone would be depressed about losing an arm (especially it being removed against their will, strapped to a table) whether I remember it or not. I've for the most part come to terms with what happened, I don't want to make my parents feel shame or even tell them I'm trying to grow it back (so they aren't offended by me essentially going back on their decision/ the choice they made, with my best interest in their heart). I want to stop boys from being cut for any non medical emergency situation, it's just better intact with all the parts working together as they should, as one penis (even if you don't believe it, then we could, as a society stop supporting circumcision for neonatal and make it free or cheap for adult men to choose). In my opinion, circumcision is a shitty thing, but how no one cares about how bloody, brutal and unnecessary (in most cases) it is, is even shittier. And if we are going to talk about circumcision we need to use the right words; theres no shame saying it was ripped off, it's just more technical than saying snipped since it was more involved than a simple snip. Or "cut apart" because it was literally one whole dick, and parts were cut off, removed; it came apart. It was literally a surgery preformed against their will I'm not blowing it put of proportion, you're minimizing it. I'm sorry you got so much dirt under your glans you needed to go to the doctor, but if you were intact your "army helmet" would have been covered, and assuming you were young, never exposed at that point (where you are incapable of cleaning ot yourself).

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]dinkstar1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Solidarity.. I'm glad mine was chopped too, and I'm glad I'm with the norm in Caucasian U.S. society having a dick that matches my fellow race. To me at least uncircumcised dicks are just fuckin weird af.

[–]FunctioningFully 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]dinkstar1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Circumcision is predominantly white and based in religion. Are you one of those that don't like statistics, too?

[–]FunctioningFully 10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Circumcision is predominantly white and based in religion

No. The highest rates of circumcision occur in non-white countries:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772313/

Here's a link to just the table of countries and their prevalence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772313/table/Tab1/?report=objectonly

From Wikipedia:
In 2007, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that globally, the vast majority of men who are circumcised are Muslims. They estimated 33% of adult males worldwide (aged 15+) are circumcised, with almost 70% of those being Muslims.[3]

Here's the WHO source: http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/43749/9789241596169_eng.pdf;jsessionid=2EB402B8F5561454A17C8C718C0A4010?sequence=1

I'll give you the religious argument, however the race argument is entirely imagined.

Women are the majority decision makers when it comes to forcing genital mutilation on boys.

[+]dinkstar1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I actually did not know that.

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Personally I’m glad I wasn’t asked as a newborn because I would want it later in life but the pain might be much

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No it’s because of my religion and once again in my opinion i prefer how I am opposed to the other option

To each their own but I am glad where I am

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Lay off pal it’s not indoctrination when I chose for myself

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It's fine to be happy being circumcised.

It's the hypocrisy regarding circumcision that is usually frowned upon.

If you're ok with male circumcision then you should be ok with female circumcision. As it's the same thing. Cutting off a part of a babies genitals for cultural reasons. There are no aesthetic or health reasons for it. Aesthetics are dictated by cultural norms. Some cultures like the look of woman's vulvas with the labia cut off for instance.

If you're not ok with female genital mutilation then it's hypocrisy to be ok with male circumcision.

Going back to the op's comic, requiring/demanding consent before anything is done to a woman but not affording the same courtesy to a male because "reasons" is hypocrisy.

Regardless of your thoughts on circumcision, your own or otherwise, the comic does a not bad job at showing the hypocrisy on this idea.

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[–]pizzagroom 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Circumcision on a neonatal can lead to higher rates of autism, lower pain tolerance, depression, erectile dysfunction, and a lack or lowered sense of bodily autonomy, and that's assuming the circumcision went well. You could end up with not enough skin left over, making erections painful or tear the skin, or part of your dick accidently cut off (or death). Bring circumcised has certainly hasn't helped my depression. I don't believe a parent should have the power to choose how their kid's genitals look, anyway. I mean oops sorry did you think traumatising experiences only phycologically affect those older than a few days? It's a different type of consent than for sex, but they are both traumatising experiences that disporportionally affect the sexes. The point is both are shitty. I'd argue exposing one of your most sensitive body parts when it's still fused to the skin, and that being one of your first experiences would be traumatizing, but I guess we have different opinions.

http://www.mensstudies.info/OJS/index.php/IJMH/article/view/614

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Sex is the same

how is sex the same when you are missing many parts of your genitals? Is sex the same for women who have no clit?

pissing is the same, maybe easier to clean

Cleaning yourself is pretty easy... not a justification for cutting off or removing body parts

doesn't hurt me in any way.

infants who have it done seem to be screaming pretty hard.

I could care less

I mean I care about how much of my dick I have. I'm circumcised and I restore to get back some of what was taken... Not caring is just.. odd. Its my body and not caring how much of it people arbitrarily decide to cut off it seems like a big deal to me.

While it seems to be more common in New England, every girl I've been with hasn't given a shit either, or prefer it.

If I was a girl and I justified FGM with men liking it that way I would be called the embodiment of patriarchy itself lol.

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It shouldn't matter who it came from, as long as the message is still valid.

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If Hitler said "breathe air" would you not breathe air?

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Nobody asked to take mine, and it very much bothers me.

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Well, that's anecdotal evidence. Not sure that all men think that way, it's not like I have numbers or anything. I'll gladly reconsider if I get some statistics on that along with statistics on female genital mutilation as well. IDK, i've just seen this male genital mutilation theme on this sub a lot, so I thought it was appropriate.

[+]Taladar -7 points-6 points-5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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What? How does one achieve the former state of being non circumsised?

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Ad hominem

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The terms ad mulierem and ad feminam have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy, more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.

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Well it shouldn't matter though. We don't need to judge something based on where it came from or who authored it, the point is to focus on the content of the comic itself.

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How is this feminism though

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Tag: Humour

Can someone explain to me the funny part of this comic?

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I'm not the one that put the tag. I have no control over it

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Title	Rules for thee but not for me
Author	AThiccMeme
Upvotes	3281
Comments	889
Date	September 3, 2018 7:37 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9cohy8/rules_for_thee_but_not_for_me/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rules-for-thee-but-not-for-me.894884 https://theredarchive.com/post/894884

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