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Is there a reason people think relationships require a heirarchy or "structure"?

Ilovebooks189956 · 2026-02-24T15:08:37+00:00

I see a lot of discussions here where people say a relationship only works if someone is leading or in charge. Usually they mean the man. I might be younger...

Ilovebooks189956

February 24, 2026

39 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Is there a reason people think relationships require a heirarchy or "structure"?
Author	Ilovebooks189956
Upvotes	39
Comments	472
Date	February 24, 2026 3:08 PM UTC (5 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1rdipqj/is_there_a_reason_people_think_relationships/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-there-a-reason-people-think-relationships.1574149 https://theredarchive.com/post/1574149

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Oh yeah forgot about that, my bad. My opinion is that if governments completely stopped intervening in relationships or marriages, it would likely become more of a cultural or emotional commitment rather than a legal institution. Without tax benefits, legal protections, or formal frameworks for things like inheritance, custody, and asset division, fewer people would marry for practical reasons and more would rely on informal partnerships. However, removing state involvement would also create major legal ambiguity, especially during breakups or when children are involved, and could increase inequality since wealthier people could rely on private contracts while others would have fewer protections. In practice, most governments stay involved not to control love, but because relationships have public consequences involving money, children, and legal responsibility.

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But this is a flawed leap of logic that not only ignores individual differences but conflates attraction with how a woman might want to interact with that man. A woman can even want a dominant man to be submissive to her, for example.

I'm not ignoring individual differences as I was precise about the fact that I was speaking about averages. There was no moral weight in what I said, I don't think women have to be submissive. So individual women can definitely be dominant or neutral. But the average woman in my view leans more towards being submissive when they feel safe enough to be that.

But yes, you're right it can be more complicated. But then I question why would it be that complicated in most cases?

Edit: not to mention, many women have had this you're submissive shit pushed on them ever since they were tiny girls...and that sort of thing can affect people while having nothing to do with what they're naturally inclined towards.

This is true, but that just creates uncertainty in both directions. I can't know for sure whether it's natural, but you can't know for sure either that it's not natural.

[–]SleepyPoemsin2020 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze27m Altruistic Individualist 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (29 children) | Copy Link

It's not complicated that attraction towards someone and how you want to interact with them can be two different things. E.g., men who fall in love with a woman who likes to dress provocatively and then is upset when she continues to dress this way in a relationship.

Yes, but on a population scale why would you assume this is the case for such a number of people that it would change the average?

The fact is the vast majority of women express preferences for egalitarian relationships. If you're listening to them on preference for dominant men, maybe also listen to them on their preference for how they want to interact in their relationships.

They are just expressing they don't want to be coerced like I said in my first comment. You can be submissive and not want to be coerced into being submissive. In fact I'd say that is the best thing to want. Being submissive also doesn't mean your relationship can't be egalitarian.

[–]SleepyPoemsin2020 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (28 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but on a population scale why would you assume this is the case for such a number of people that it would change the average?

Attraction and how you want to interact with someone you love are two entirely separate circles. Again, this is very flawed logic. You're trying to say "because women like oranges, they must naturally want oranges to be thrown at them." Not to mention, preference for dominance significantly diminishes for long term relationships

Being submissive also doesn't mean your relationship can't be egalitarian.

Actually, it means exactly that. Wanting an egalitarian relationship is the active rejection of a submissive role. You're trying to tell me that when women ask for a seat at the table, they’re secretly wishing they were under it.

Maybe stop trying to force outdated narratives on women so hard.

[–]NoBlacksmith81371 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]SleepyPoemsin20202 points 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NoBlacksmith81371 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You do you, but that doesn't make it egalitarian.

Yes it does. You’re narrowing down what egalitarian means. You could narrow it down endlessly and count on the dollar who spends what, or keep a spreadsheet on who did laundry more often… Dividing shores based on interests is also still egalitarian. If one partner prefers to cook and the other one prefers to do administrative tasks more, there’s also an asymmetry but a chosen one based on preferences. That doesn’t make the relationship less egalitarian. In any relationship you have certain asymmetry’s, nobody is ever doing any task in the exact equal amount and everyone makes individual agreements. This also applies to the bedrooms, it’s fine to have preferences there too.

Equality refers to power, agency, and structural decision-making. Voluntary, bounded role-play does not negate that.

Structural and erotic hierarchy aren’t the same thing. And when the phrase is spoken “women are naturally submissive” most of the time people mean it in an erotic sense, not a structural sense. Unless they are extreme conservatives or religious people with medieval sexist views.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20202 points 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NoBlacksmith81370 points 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No I wasn’t making the point that feeling empowered automatically makes a relationship egalitarian. In your example indeed there is a structural asymmetry if the woman doesn’t make decisions at all and especially if there isn’t room for making exceptions or changing the dynamic when she needs it to.

In my opinion neither of you were being clear whether you meant sexual submissiveness or total submissiveness. I would say it’s true that many women want to be more sexually submissive to a man they love. But I wouldn’t say they overall want to be more submissive. If you trust your partner however, it can be nice sometimes to let go of some decision making and outsource some. But that happens in both directions in an egalitarian relationship. Both man and woman in that sense would be more submissive to the partner they love.

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[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why would I believe this? Whats the reason they'd be completely independent?

Based upon human behavior? Attraction is involuntary, but people's preferences change over time as they get more experience because they figure out what they actually want.

But honestly what you appear to be failing to ask yourself is why you think they must be connected. Why would you assume that being attracted to a person with some dominance associated traits means you want to be dominated by him? If I'm attracted to a dude who can kick other people's asses, that doesn't mean I want him to kick my ass. I mean, tf?

If a man is attracted to a woman because she is incredibly nurturing and 'maternal,' does that mean he 'naturally' wants her to treat him like a literal infant? Does he want her to change his diapers and burp him? Or does he just want a partner who is caring?

I don't agree with this.

They you're trying to redefine what words mean.

[–]Maffioze1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Based upon human behavior? Attraction is involuntary, but people's preferences change over time as they get more experience because they figure out what they actually want.

It is more reasonable to assume it will have some effect on the scale of the total population. Are you saying people don't act on their attraction?

But honestly what you appear to be failing to ask yourself is why you think they must be connected. Why would you assume that being attracted to a person with some dominance associated traits means you want to be dominated by him? If I'm attracted to a dude who can kick other people's asses, that doesn't mean I want him to kick my ass. I mean, tf?

Because those things are correlated. Doesn't mean they are causal on an individual level. Being dominated also isn't automatically the same as getting your ass kicked, but okay.

If a man is attracted to a woman because she is incredibly nurturing and 'maternal,' does that mean he 'naturally' wants her to treat him like a literal infant? Does he want her to change his diapers and burp him? Or does he just want a partner who is caring?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make by saying this.

They you're trying to redefine what words mean.

I'm trying to understand human dynamics. Being submissive can have other meanings than being a bangmaid. It's more so that I realize there's human behaviour and desire, and then there's the patriarchal interpretation of how women should behave. Those are not the same.

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[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Maffioze1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You don't seem to realize you're committing major reasoning errors that invalidate the probabilistic conclusions you're trying to draw.

No, you just don't understand how bayesian statistics work. Which is fine, most people don't as it's not taught nearly enough.

But accusing me of commuting major reasoning errors just because you don't understand me is annoying.

My opinion however is based in a long history of men trying to subjugate women who won't submit and women generally preferring true egalitarian relationships with an equal distribution of power and no submissive partner.

Again I said they shouldn't be coerced. And submissiveness and dominance is far more complicated than "distribution of power" in a relationship. It can be something as simple as leading your partner through a busy street so they don't have to think too much. It's a behavioural dynamic, not just the patriarchal script of that. I have told you multiple times now I don't like this either.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You might have a point if you weren't strawmanning my position, and if I were the one trying to support uncalled for assumptions with Bayesian statistics to support a broader claim.

But I think it might be helpful to look at it from a different angle regarding something you're likely biased against believing.

Let's say Sue argues that generally men want to compete and be dominant over other men.

Mary disagrees, arguing that, on a population scale, men are statistically more likely than women to work 60+ hour weeks, sacrifice their physical health for a company, and follow the strict orders of a male CEO/Boss without question. As such, she concludes that because men are attracted to this situation on a population scale, it's 'likely' that there's a pattern of men desiring to be submissive to other men in power.

What's wrong with Mary's reasoning, or is it sound?

[–]Maffioze1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You might have a point if you weren't strawmanning my position, and if I were the one trying to support uncalled for assumptions with Bayesian statistics to support a broader claim.

How did I strawman your position?

What's wrong with Mary's reasoning, or is it sound?

I think there is some truth to it, but I think the military would be a better example to use.

There's also contradicting evidence of that idea, because on the one hand there are places where this seems to be true (the military, sports teams, ...) and places where this seems to be not true at all (academia, the work place, ...) where studies show men value individualism, non conformity and a lack of social desirability more than women do.

So I am unsure what is true in that example, it seems to me that men are generally less submissive but that this flips in places with very strict hierarchies, here they are more submissive.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

attraction to dominance is completely independent from what women want in long term relationships

This is what you said my position was. But this is completely off base. Studies do show that dominance is less appealing for women in long term relationships than short term. But that's not my position. The reason I pointed it out was to point out evidence indicating that while women may be attracted to dominance, the man likely expecting her to be submissive to him could be a byproduct of that dominance they don't care for, and so many decide isn't worth the positives (such as competence) in the long run. And no, that doesn't mean it would change if the dominant man loved her "right."

My position is that attraction to dominance and desire for submission are two separate circles because they can be completely independent of each other. Because of that, unless you're coming with a biased prior that women are submissive (and maybe not even then), there is no good reason (correlation isn't a good reason unless you want to concede that eating ice cream makes people feel like murdering others) to assume that attraction to dominance in and of itself is evidence for something it's separate from.

Sure, on a population scale, I have no doubt that you can find women who both want to be submissive and are attracted to dominant men. That is entirely unimpressive. If you're going to use attraction to dominance as evidence that women are "naturally" submissive if loved "right" (a very problematic position in and of itself because of a woman isn't submissive, you can always just say she isn't being loved "right" because wtf does that mean?), then you need to give me some reason as to why a desire for submission is a more likely or more frequent explanation for attraction to dominance than other explanations.

Bayesian statistics do not get you there unless you're presupposing your own conclusion - that women are naturally submissive if loved "right."

If you still think I'm misunderstanding something, feel free to tell me what specifically you think I'm misunderstanding.

So I am unsure what is true in that example, it seems to me that men are generally less submissive but that this flips in places with very strict hierarchies, here they are more submissive.

So what if Mary argues that men's natural submissiveness doesn't come out in other contexts because they're not being treated right. However their natural disposition of submission is evidenced by how submissive they become when in a situation where they're "allowed" by gendered expectations to be submissive, that is, in strict hierarchies. Do you think she's right?

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Cannibalism is evolutionary too, yet it happens so little it's nonexistent, but racism is much more large scale, why? Because it's preserved in society. Regardless I asked you to explain how different social structures fail miserably.

Okay, let's provide you the metric of a result. Societies saw large drops in maternal mortality and child mortality as women gained education, healthcare access, and reproductive autonomy. Female literacy and school enrollment rose dramatically worldwide, which is strongly linked to better child health, lower poverty, and more stable households. Legal reforms introduced protections against domestic abuse, marital rape, and forced dependence, giving people real avenues to leave harmful situations. Expanding women’s participation in education and the workforce also boosted economic growth, reduced extreme poverty in many regions, and increased overall life expectancy and quality of life. Opening opportunities to half the population unlocked major talent and innovation across fields like medicine, science, and technology.

Women’s access to education is one of the strongest predictors of better maternal health, lower child mortality, and higher vaccination rates. Advocacy around reproductive rights and prenatal care contributed to safer pregnancies and lower maternal mortality, while pressure to address gender gaps in medicine led to more research on women’s health issues and the inclusion of women in clinical trials. Legal protections around domestic violence and bodily autonomy have clear physical and mental health impacts aswell. In addition, normalizing women’s autonomy in making medical decisions increased healthcare access and utilization. So technology played a role, but not the sole role. And how are gains in legal rights "useless" for women?

[–]Independent-Mail-227Man -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Cannibalism is evolutionary too, yet it happens so little it's nonexistent, but racism is much more large scale, why?

Because cannibalism is subpar, the advantage of eating something that is outside your species is due to a reduction in the risk of parasite contamination since those rarely jump out of species. It's even more dangerous when you get to things like prions diseases.

In group preference has massive advantages with little drawback, cannibalism has massive drawbacks with little advantages.

I asked you to explain how different social structures fail miserably.

They fail to create incentives.

Societies saw large drops in maternal mortality and child mortality as women gained education, healthcare access, and reproductive autonomy.

Stop conflating technological advancement with social trends, just stop. Maternal mortality rates were reduced due to understanding of how germs and infections works and they rised once again women started to delay pregnancies.

Female literacy and school enrollment rose dramatically worldwide, which is strongly linked to better child health, lower poverty, and more stable households.

Stable househould? Did you missed the number of single mothers household exponential increase? Is this what you call stable?

Women’s access to education is one of the strongest predictors of better maternal health, lower child mortality, and higher vaccination rates.

Yeah because "Women’s access to education" is tied to a first world country conditions and every single first world country will have "better maternal health, lower child mortality, and higher vaccination rates" when the comparison is an african slum.

Legal protections around domestic violence and bodily autonomy have clear physical and mental health impacts aswell.

Yeah this is why the depression rates have been so low right?

This is the shit you don't understand, you see this small little thing does zero question about causality, zero question about methodology don't even differ what is a result of better technology vs better society, ignore every single negative aspect and says that this is better, like a child that think that eating candy is better than some salad just because "it taste better".

When you compare ourselves with our grandparents: We are less economically stable, more suicidal, have more single mothers, more absent fathers, less intelligent, with less critical thinking, have less reasoning skills or even less skills in general.

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Your original claim was that evolutionary behaviour means it's inevitable, your defense against my counter doesn't shifts from your orignal argument.

Regarding what?

But technological and social advancements are interlinked (it depends on education institutional access gender autonomy and public health systems heavily) so the attempt at separating them is fruitless

Taking an increase in the number of single mothers as proof of an unstable society ignores a ton of context. The reason for this increase includes an ability to leave abuse, less forced marriage, reduced stigma and legal autonomy which can reflect more choice instead of collapse.

This claim ignores that female education is a well-established driver of better outcomes even within the same societies (such as better child survival)

Mental health trends are influenced by a lot of factors, so rising depression doesn’t automatically negate the impact of expanded rights. Increased diagnosis, social media effects, economic stress, loneliness, and even the pandemic have all played major roles in mental health trends. At the same time, legal and social rights have had clear physical and safety impacts, like reducing domestic violence risks and improving maternal health. So it’s not a simple one-variable equation where rights go up and mental health should automatically improve across every metric.

[–]Independent-Mail-227Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Your original claim was that evolutionary behaviour means it's inevitable

No, it was not. The claim was "Pattern recogntion and intergroup bias are evolutionary traits that increase survival" and that "So long culture presents differences in behavior and incentives racism will survive". It's not about it being inevitable or not, is about cause and effect.

Regarding what?

If you remove male incentive to contribute to society they will not produce the excess of labour that develop society.

But technological and social advancements are interlinked

They're not. They're idependent and unrelated. There's no social advancement that resulted in the discovery of the transistor, nor large scale microchip production. There's no social advancement that resulted in the penicillin discovery.

Taking an increase in the number of single mothers as proof of an unstable society ignores a ton of context.

There's no context, household without a father creastes instable children.

This claim ignores that female education is a well-established driver of better outcomes even within the same societies

Since you didn't understood the basic idea about the subject I'll try to explain to you in a way that you should understood.

Imagine person A, person A is very well off with rich parents. He finished his basic education and jumped to a prestigious university, he never had to worry about food in his life.

Imagine person B, person B is very poor with very poor parents. He finished his basic education and without being able to afford higher education he just goes to work, he was very worried about not having what to eat.

A social "scientist" will go and affirm how going to the university increase the odds of you not having to worry about food but in reality the person that do not have to worry about food are more likely to get a higher education.

Mental health trends are influenced by a lot of factors, so rising depression doesn’t automatically negate the impact of expanded rights

People are all time

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1) My counter would be three things:

i) Early humans benefitted massively from pattern recognition, yes, but intergroup bias was helpful in some evironments but was not universally dominant. Humans also developed: trade between tribes, alliances, intermarriage and cultural exchange.

ii) Race in itself evolved much later. Humans interracted with eachother at clan/tribe level, not skin-colour or continental characteristics. Evolution may have selected a fimiliarity bias, but racism needs cultural aid to persist the way we see it today.

iii) The human brain is plastic, and at large, racism can be deduted to near-zero numbers with strict enforcement and inter-mingling of different races at an early age. It is impossible to make that number zero (as is with any evolutionary trait), but it is possible to heavily deduct the scale of harm that happens due to it. However, using it being evolutionary as an excuse for discrimination is wrong because nothing said in this discussion negates racism being bad.

2) A household without a negative father or one with parents who are not in love creates more unstability in children, no?

3) That assumes men only contribute under hierarchical incentives, which doesn’t really align with reality. Men still work and innovate in highly egalitarian societies, and modern economies are built on contributions from both men and women. Most motivation today is economic or personal, not tied to gender dominance, so the idea that equality removes the incentive to build society isn’t strongly supported.

4) That example correctly points out that background factors influence who gets access to education, which is a real issue in social science called selection bias. But modern research explicitly tries to control for that. They use methods like: longitudinal studies, natural experiments, instrumental variables and within-family comparisons and many studies still find that education has independent causal effects on outcomes like income, health, and child survival.

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Do you understand what racism is? At all? Racism is the belief or behavior that treats people differently (usually worse) because of their race or ethnicity, based on the idea that some races are naturally superior or inferior. You believe a person will prefer someone from their own community, and I agree (because THAT is evolutionary), but it doesn't justify thinking of persons from other communities as inferior. It's not evolutionary to do (I won't explain why twice, look at my previous reply for that) and it's not a social requirement, so the fact it still persists proves it needs cultural aid to survive. I will not be engaging any further with passive-agressiveness and insults, so unless you have a genuine counter to this and are able to put it forward without hostility, I'm all ears, if not, this will be our last interraction.

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For the same reason most organizations require a hierarchy: There is stuff that has to happen, and a hierarchy of some kind is the most effective organizational structure.

But families and family obligations are weakening--often there is not even a nuclear family, just a couple. And there is no way to have hierarchy without elevating one gender over the other formally in some respects, which neither gender can stand in 2026. So it is pretty much a moot question. Without de jure and de facto backing by the law and social forces, any hierarchy is an illusion that disappears as soon as one partner says 'if you do this, I walk'. Marriages are disolvable at will with minimal consequence (relative to history). The genders are equal under the law and in terms of most social norms, and social enforcement of anything is weak anyways. There is no real community to enforce things even if it were so inclined.

So yeah, talk of hierarchy is usually just bullshit and wasted oxygen unless you can create overall circumstances that somehow enforce the hierarchy.

[–]Due_Appointment_1188Purple Pill Man | 31 | MMA | Tats are cool 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

Never knew this is a popular preference.

As far as my LTR model is concerned, I usually delegate most of the decisions to her if she wants to, but I only get into relationships where I have veto power over the 1% of stuff that actually interests me. With my ex, everyone even my family and close friends thought she's the "boss" in our relationship and was always blamed especially by my mom that I just do what she says. That was because she always made a lot of the decisions, like whose parents we visit on holidays (it was always hers), what we do on Valentine's, and so on. But only I and her knew what was really going on behind the scenes, and that all her "power" was only a front, because I had veto over everything. It wasn't even something that needed to be said outloud, we never talked about it. But I knew it. She knew it. I just chose not to do anything about it most of the time. However if I ever said I don't like X, X was gone, whether it was a thing, a person, or whatever, no explanations, no arguments, no buts.

So I'm not really into what you've been describing people usually prefer, nor into what you're into. I prefer a 51 49 approach. Balance and an apparent democracy, but when opinions diverge over something crucial for the relationship, only one makes the call.

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Any relationship dynamic can become toxic/dangerous if both people aren't good people or don't respect each other, including 50/50 setups.

In my experience the dynamic being described here already is the norm. Most women seem to prefer and have the utmost respect for men who are largely agreeable and chill, and not micro-managers in terms of home/social life, but are still able to set boundaries or say no unapologetically on the rare occasion they need to. Especially if, throughout the relationship, they see that these rare occasions are things that ended up being objected to on the grounds of her own good or safety.

Just for one random example, lets say a husband and wife have some extended family over for dinner. One of these guests gets really drunk and starts going on angry racist rants which are clearing making the wife and other the other guests uncomfortable. I would wager most women would prefer their husband to quietly order a taxi for that person and respectfully kick them out of the house, than to take her aside for a discussion and come to an agreement on what to do, or, worse still leave it to her, to take action.

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In my experience, women tend to kind of fawn over men who take charge in these kind of "the buck stops here" situations, especially if its otherwise out of character for the man doing it, and often being capable of doing that but knowing when (i.e. very rarely) is seen as a key part of being a good husband/father. On the other hand, a lot of men would see a woman doing something like that as overstepping or being bossy and could hold it against her.

Also, most men just accept that being expected to step up and take "executive action" in these situations is part of being a man. Whereas women, again in my experience, often kind of resent the idea of that being left to fall to them, and can absolutely lose respect for their husband/boyfriend/partner if he has a pattern of doing that.

I don't think any of this is fair or logical, but it is what it is. There are different expectations and norms in relationships for men and women, and this is one of them.

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I don't have an AI buddy, I'm actually very much against the usage of generative AI, I just had a ton of energy I used into speaking formally so tysm for that lol

I view a relationship as a beautiful overlap of familial connection and a deep friendship, neither of which require a "leader" or require polarity.

There also needs to be level of respect for a woman's strength and determination, because this is a common courtsey you show your partner and it goes both ways. Considering her someone inferior to you and in requirement of leadership can be percieved as a dig at her intellegence and maturity level, which is not ideal for a balanced relationship dynamic

Both partners can be that 51 at different points of time, that is partnership. It's being the 51 when your SO is at 49, it's nothing to do with gender and moreso about the emotional and financial condition(s) of the two.

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[–]preferablynoReddish Purple man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m purple not flaired red so responding here

In my life if I don’t lead, I won’t be satisfied with what gets done. I make plans, I set things up, I handle logistics, I get things done. If I don’t, it won’t. Theres a million unseen details and it seems like nobody really ever wants to handle them without prompting.

If nobody really wants to follow my lead, that’s not ideal but it’s okay, I’ll be satisfied with what I set up for myself. I find that people do usually like what I have going on and want to join.

I don’t think a relationship necessarily needs somebody to lead like that, but I do think most social interactions go more smoothly where somebody is willing to bear that burden, and I myself really don’t want a ton of directionless “what should we do” indecision in my life

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My point is that you can't compromise without a disagreement. The discussion about said disagreement is usually an argument. Why don't you give me examples of the toughest compromise you've made in a relationship? Walk me through the "discussion" you went through to reach that compromise.

This argument collapses if one removes the overgeneralization completely, especially because you have no stats or studies to back that claim.

There's no shortage of studies and articles concluding that 50/50 relationships don't work. They usually invent some nonsense solution like "try 100/100 instead!", but they reach the same conclusions I've given you. 50/50 relationships lead to resentment and scorekeeping.

Striving For An Equal Marriage? That May Be Why It's Failing

Now here's data indicating that egalitarianism leads to less sex in a relationship.

Following up on the widely publicized claim that by doing more housework, husbands in more egalitarian marriages got more sex, we sought to investigate the links between men’s participation in housework and sexual frequency using nationally representative data. Our findings suggest the importance of gender display for sexual frequency in heterosexual marriage: couples where men participate more in core tasks—work typically done by women—report lower sexual frequency. Similarly, couples where men participate more in non-core, traditionally masculine tasks report higher sexual frequency, suggesting the importance of gender-typed participation in household labor. Additionally, although our main results examined core and non-core labor separately, we note that regressions using the share of total housework (core and non-core combined) also show a negative and significant coefficient for men’s share of housework.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4273893/

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I'm so sorry i js got notified abt this comment.

Okay, so, my grandma was in the hospital (she raised me btw cuz both my parents worked a lot throughout my early childhood and began relaxing just when I was in my early-late teens so I've been more attached to her than anybody), and obviously I was in a tough place mentally (my bsf literally flew back from the state he lived in cuz he was afraid i'd kms or something). The day his mom's cremation wud happen (his mom passed away around that time too btw) was the day my nani (grandma) had major surgery. We couldn't be at two places at once so we talked it out and decided we would leave the cremation after 30 mins, drive over to the hospital and make it just in time for nani to wake up. We figured it out. The discussion was not an argument.

How is sex used as your metric for a failing or non-failing relationship?

[–]Confident_Counter471Purple Pill Woman 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wolf2424bRed Pill Man 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago (93 children) | Copy Link

The simple answer is that based on years of experience and observation, it seems that this is the way women are wired.

(To be clear, I am talking about actual women in the real world. I am well aware that Reddit is full of Truly Strong and Independent Women with no desire or need for male guidance and leadership.)

If I had to guess, I would say it's a combination of two factors:

(1) The female hypergamy instinct: To be sexually/romantically attracted to a man, a woman -- generally speaking -- needs to look up to him. This naturally happens when the man is in a leadership role in the relationship.

(2) Women hate to make decisions. Well not exactly, they are okay with making decisions they just hate being responsible when some of those decisions inevitably don't work out. So they naturally feel more comfortable when the man is the one making the decisions.

the healthiest relationships do not feel hierarchical. They feel cooperative.

I think that these two things do not necessarily contradict each other; it's possible for 2 people to have a cooperative relationship but nonetheless one person is the leader. To take an (non-sexual?) example from fiction, do you think Batman and Robin had a cooperative relationship?

(And yes, I am aware that among Redditors, a male-led romantic relationship with a woman will almost inevitably result in exploitation and abuse. Again, I'm talking about the real world.)

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 13 points14 points15 points 5 months ago (24 children) | Copy Link

I think there are a few assumptions here that are worth questioning.

First, the idea that attraction requires looking up to someone does not seem universal. People are attracted to many things like intelligence, humor, emotional depth, or shared values, and those do not necessarily create a hierarchical dynamic

Second, the idea that women avoid responsibility is not strongly supported by research. A large body of work on gender and decision-making points more toward differences in risk perception rather than unwillingness to take responsibility.

For example, multiple reviews in behavioral science and economics find that women often report higher perceived risk across domains and tend to be more risk-aware on average (e.g., Croson & Gneezy, 2009; Cambridge research on gender and risk assessment). More recent reviews also emphasize that these differences are highly context-dependent rather than universal (IZA World of Labor).

That is a very different claim from saying women avoid responsibility. Being more sensitive to potential downsides does not logically imply an inability or unwillingness to make decisions.

Lastly, batman and robin had a father-son dynamic and to compare it with a relationship (something I view as a blend of familial connection and deep friendship) is an unfair analogy to make. Even going by your example though in parental-like relationships, one person takes on the role of a "leader" because they're better experienced and can give the person taking on a more childlike role lessons (due to factors like age), meanwhile a relationship is largely between people of a similar age-group, experience level and/or maturity level, wherein that dynamic beomes uneccesary.

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I think both approaches are not equally reliable. Even imperfect studies attempt to quantify behavior across large samples, which allows us to observe aggregate patterns rather than isolated anecdotes.

Media consumption is a much noisier signal. Romantic media is shaped by industry incentives and longstanding cultural tropes, which means it is not a neutral dataset of preferences.

People also consume media within constraints. If most available narratives are skewed in certain ways, consumption does not necessarily imply full endorsement of those dynamics. That makes media a filtered and potentially distorted proxy for underlying preferences.

It might also help to distinguish between individual studies and science as a process. Some studies have limitations, but scientific understanding comes from convergence across methods and replication over time.

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First, the idea that attraction requires looking up to someone does not seem universal.

Based on my general experiences, I would have to disagree. It's just one of those things that women deny because they think it puts them in a negative light.

Any man who is serious about trying to attract women for a serious relationship needs to be at least the woman's equal, and ideally superior to her, in whatever it is she values. If she is money-oriented, he needs to have a higher salary.

We've all seen countless examples of women (in the real world) who make a good living who won't date men whose careers they deem beneath them. Hypergamy.

Second, the idea that women avoid responsibility is not strongly supported by research.

It's strongly supported by simple observation. I'm sure you can find some feminist science, probably based on self-reporting, which contradicts this extremely obvious fact.

Any man who is serious about having a serious long-term relationship with a woman needs to understand that women are afraid to take responsibility for things.

When she is agonizing over whether she wants you to get her a Toyota or a Honda, you look things over, and you say "Honey, I've studied things and I think you should get the Toyota because it's a little more reliable and I think what's most important is to avoid a breakdown [or whatever]"

Women really and truly appreciate a man who thinks about things and guides them to a decision which is in their best interests.

Again, I am talking about women in the real world. Women of Reddit are all first class auto mechanics who know everything about cars and would never need or want a man's help on this subject.

Lastly, batman and robin had a father-son dynamic and to compare it with a relationship (something I view as a blend of familial connection and deep friendship) is an unfair analogy to make

I'm a little confused. Are you denying that a relationship can be both cooperative and hierarchical?

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I've seen plenty of romantic relationships which are both cooperative and hierarchical.

Those relationships are consentually heirarchal relationships and cannot be called co-operative (as the latter implies shared agency and mutual decision making power which is not provided in such a relationship).

Agreed, I'm looking at relationships in reality -- not the fantasy relationships of the liars and larpers of Reddit.

Real relationships of a very limited world view, you mean.

Those observations were made because many women expressed a want or appreciation of flowers, your other "unflattering" observations as you term them involve actual 3rd person observance. Even with your analogy, with this being the case, would you gift every woman flowers on valentine's because they generally like it? Of course not, so why hold the stance all relationships would flourish if the man took charge?

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I think when people talk about their relationship being egalitarian, they are talking about the aspirational values or principles underpinning it, rather than the de-facto way the relationship functions. I also think a lot of people just don't think that deeply about this stuff, so "egalitarian" is an easy answer.

I would say my own relationship is egalitarian in principle, although in practice I do tend to be the one leading most of the bigger things.

With joint financial stuff for example, my partner and I discuss every decision we make, however she generally prefers that I make the final call on stuff. Of course if she wants to do this she can and does, however 9 times out of 10 she'll say or imply that she would prefer me to be the one to make the final decision.

For social stuff and home stuff, she is more of the planner and decision maker.

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I don't think I want to look up to a man. I don't need a man to lead as in an authoritarian way. But rather to be able to not be afraid of confrontation and be upfront about what he wants

Guys, typically are ok with low key effort relationships where sex happens regularly. Women usually need more emotionally deep long term relationships. So, it is the job of the man to show he actually likes us for more than just a situationship or hook up

Because no offense men lie about what they want and or say "let's see where this is going" and as long as they are satisfied. She isn't complaining. She is having sex with him enough, and he is getting enough of her attention he low key stops putting in effort to meet her needs because he is satisfied with what she is giving

So, it is up to a man to lead in that aspect

Not because he is taking me in a direction because I am unable to do leading. But because I already am leading. I am showing interest. I am making myself clear about what I want.

So, if I am leading the relationship to a place I want reciprocation and for him to lead himself there with me as well.

I don't want a guy who I feel like I have to constantly think "he is better than me"

I just want a guy who knows what he wants and goes for it. Because I do that. And I want him to be obvious and clear with it because I am

Leadership from a man means he is leading himself towards what he wants

Not about leading me there. Because I know what I want and I know how to lead myself to those goals. So, I expect my man to do the same

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You can try to start a cooperative relationship as a man as much as you want, then get ghosted and rejected for not taking charge and making things 'exciting' or whatever excuse that discounts the effort you made to create an equal relationship.

I would love to say this is not the vast majority of women, but in my experience, women respond much more positively to a guy immediately leading the way and maintaining some kind of dominance. I agree that its kinda dumb and illogical, which is one of the many reasons why I stopped chasing women.

The expectations placed on men don't leave room for much else and again, trying to bulld the relationship off mutual engagement will not work. Most women refuse to have the kinds of conversations required for cooperation, especially in the early stages of a relationship. This is where a lot of the complaints about mind reading come from; as a man, you know its unlikely a woman will share her opinion and express specific desires. The implication is that the man decides in that case.

The way relationships are formed has a big impact on the way they end up playing out later. The female expectation that men will take responsibility for courting, dating, initiating, and creating conversation early on leads to men retaining a 'dominant' position within the relationship. There are of course exceptions and ways around this, but it demands a certain level of self-awareness and proper communication, both of which are rare traits in both genders.

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The only time I need a man to take leadership is in showing me that he is interested in me and moving his ass to show that interest at the begining of the relatiomahip.

The guy that did that is my current partnert. I made the mistake of sharing that initiative before , booking places myself, organising.., for them to show me no interest and that they weren't willing to do the same for me.

My brother advised me that I shouldn't be doing that, and I thought "why not? Equaljty!" But that's when I realised, if men don't show interest and court women, it means they dont really like u and they are just there to fuck or waste your time. That's the part where equality might not work. At least it didn't for me.

For the rest of the relationship? I accept my partner's guidance, same as he accepts mine. But I dont need him to make decisions for me. I actually had made some for him cause he seems to be as bad for that as myself lol he asks my opinion same as I ask for his cause we value each other and I think it works pretty well.

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i'm taken, thanks and appealing to animal dominance structures doesn’t translate cleanly to human relationships, because humans regulate many natural impulses through culture, ethics, and communication rather than modeling behavior directly on nature. The fact that hierarchies exist in animals doesn’t make them inherently ideal for modern human dynamics, especially since cooperation, emotional intelligence, and negotiated norms often prevent conflict just as effectively as dominance. Using fish or animal analogies is a category error, because survival-based hierarchies in nature are very different from emotionally complex human partnerships. The claim that wanting mutual energy shrinks the dating pool also assumes equality is unnatural, when in reality relationship dynamics vary widely and many couples operate through fluid or situational leadership rather than fixed dominance. Ultimately, human attraction and compatibility are diverse, and while some people may prefer more structured or dominant dynamics, that preference isn’t a universal biological rule.

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man; put the cake down each time you downvote me 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Humans arrange into hierarchies not because they put effort into imitating pet fish (who are literally not in a "survival-based hierarchy in nature"). Wanting mutual energy shrinks dating pool because "exact-the-sameness" is rare: rolling six dice twice gives around 4% probability that both results will have the same sum. Even initially-matching partners can diverge with age.

A woman who is fine with "no hierarchy" statistically exists and would make a great romantic partner, but she is taken. Meeting such a woman, whose energy matches yours, who also likes you, and who is also single, is something to hope for but not count on.

A third possibility of "unstructured" relationship is a couple whose scarcity problems are solved to an extent that they have nothing to conflict and argue over. This starts at around $700k/year, making such couples literally top 1%. The rest adapt. Children fight and dominate each other over who gets the bottom bunk, adults over who gets a better parking spot, romantic partners over what next nonsense purchase is more important to have immediately. Oh, and politicians of course, who in context of the US win presidency in 2 of 3 cases (and popular vote in 3 out of 4) if they are taller.

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you're conflating “natural” with “necessary.” Hierarchies existing in nature doesn’t mean they’re ideal for human relationships, in fact humans override natural impulses all the time through culture, ethics, and negotiation. Otherwise we’d justify all kinds of behaviors just because they occur in animals (such as unprompted violence).

Also, I’m not arguing for exact sameness or perfect symmetry. Equality in relationships means neither partner is structurally above the other and leadership can be fluid and/or situational.

The scarcity point also feels overstated. Plenty of non-wealthy couples operate without rigid dominance structures. And I agree, resource constraints can create conflict due to stress and desperation, but they don’t automatically require hierarchy as the solution. Communication and cooperation are also adaptive strategies.

Lastly, to clarify, I didn't introduce animal hierarchies as a model. You did. My point was that using survival hierarchies from animals as a template for emotionally complex human relationships is a category mismatch.

[–]abaxeronRed Pill Man; put the cake down each time you downvote me 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Structures occur naturally; even pet fish owners will confirm." What is meant is that humans will confirm even sooner, and I have provided several examples of human dominance behavior from children fighting over a bottom bunk all the way to voters choosing a taller presidential candidate. The point is not that people should act like pet fish, it's that they already do, just with more ballot-dropping and less tail-biting.

Better strategies require: equal trust in each others' opinions / judgements; both (or all) agents good rationalists; consistent intellectual effort over every decision, no matter how small; charitable ongoing consent of the dominant agent, constant effort to encourage less dominant agent(s) to take part in cooperation (who "by default" just want to push responsibility onto the dominant agent and leave to binge-doomscroll TikToks). Forming a dominance-based hierarchy requires nothing: you see a person who can easily ruin your day, your lizard brain decides that it's cheaper to do what they say. Three-fourths of a second, zero intellectual effort, slight spike in heart rate and blood pressure.

As a wise person said, all management is time management.

Equality in relationships means neither partner is structurally above the other and leadership can be fluid and/or situational.

All leadership is fluid and situational, utilitarian value of "structural aboveness" is described in economics and game theory and political theory better than I ever could - one person with final decision prevents decisional deadlocks. While yes, this authority can be abused for... well, abuse, so can deadlocks.

Finally, I wanted to bring up an analogy. When people say "hierarchy/structure is necessary", they mean it in the same sense as "job is necessary". Yes, some prime-age adults cover their expenses without being employed. Some of them save lots of time this way and spend it on choosing well-matched clothes, having superb skin care routine, doing sports, and in general they give much more positive vibe of not being burdened by thoughts of mortgage and next insurance payment. To paraphrase you, "from what I have seen and experienced, the healthiest individuals do not feel employed". But we all understand that to have such life is an immense luck unattainable for the vast majority of ordinary people. Same goes for egalitarian functional relationships. I am happy for every couple that managed to pull this off. But for most people, it's just not a matter of realistic choice.

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In traditional families where the woman takes care of the children. Then the majority of household and financial decisions fall to the woman. Since the only thing the man takes care of is getting the finances

The wife takes care of those finances as well as maintaining literally the entire household

So, most decisions effect the wife and kids and household and not the man since he is almost an "outsider" since he goes, makes money and then comes home. And the wife spends all day everyday maintaining the house

So, the vast majority of decisions should and are made by the wife. Because the majority of decisions are for the family and not the man. And thats kind of the traditional role of the man/husband in a household

When the man chooses to spend the vast majority of his time away from the home, most important decisions end up being about the household and its members that spend the majority of time at home

Ie, most decisions are for and about the house and children and wife. Because the wife takes care of the house and children. The man only takes care of making money.

So, again, most decisions traditionally fall on the wife as she is the one who makes most rules of the household as she is usually the one who manages the household

[–]DeGee_HOD_987Man 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, again, most decisions traditionally fall on the wife as she is the one who makes most rules of the household as she is usually the one who manages the household

In theory that's how it worked. In practice, my dad just butts his head in whenever he wants anyways. That's the real unspoken truth of trad relationships. The head who's probably a guy gets the ultimate say always when he insists on it. She runs as manager 90% of the time but he takes over as CEO when he feels like it. Respect to whoever wants that dynamic. I saw my parents lived it and I gotta say, I'm siding with ma on this one.

Some great men out there who really would be a great trad lead. If a woman lands one of these dudes I can totally see the arrangement working great. Prolly not enough of them going around though. Certainly far less than the number of dudes who insist on trad.

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Look at the sentences and punishments they get.

Dude, do you know how many rape kits are sitting untested? What sentencing or responsibility do you think is taking place in those cases? Yeah, cases with undeniable proof and especially with extra violence sometimes make it to sentencing, big deal. I would argue that THOSE are the "outliers", since we know how low reporting is and we know rape kits sit untested for years and how hard it is to prove a rape without violence and other evidence.

Next let's talk Brock Allen Turner and how often men get off easy for being "promising young men", male teachers who have married their students, pastors and youth leaders, etc. Men get off by not even being charged in the first place, from being shuffled around by other men to protect reputations. Men from Average Joe to Epstein and pals have been left to run around free in most cases... Almost as if it's by design. Not all men will get off scott free of course, but do not make me laugh with this narrative of "look at the sentences and punishments they (women) get" as if that's the whole picture.

Don't make me laugh with pretending that criminal behavior can be used as an example of the behavior of a general population in an era chock full of "not all men".

Do you think the average man can be painted with the same brush as rapists or not?

Are you being logically consistent or not?

Yes or no, it's not hard.

[–]No-Rough-7390Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheCharmingBarbarian 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You’re talking about outliers magnitudes greater than anything I’m referencing.

I am not, what I'm referencing is shit that is unfortunately quite common and it goes back decades. It's what brought down the Boy Scouts, ffs, finally, and was a huge scandal in the Catholic Church going back decades. The creepy uncle or Grandpa that the little kids don't like going near but that the family won't talk about. There are and have been men getting away with sexual crimes against children all over the place, they are not outliers.

Women notoriously get lighter sentences/off compared to men.

Not being charged or even investigated in the first place is even lighter sentencing than women who get "light sentencing". Deal with it.

No disputing it.

I dispute the shit out of it.

Now finally answer the very simple question:

Do you paint average men with the same brush as rapists?

It's a yes or no answer about your own opinion with no "wrong" answer, this literally couldn't be easier to answer.

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it's a joke, chill out

No true matriarchies (defined as "Women holding dominant political, economic, and social power across society." by most scholars) have ever existed. It has either been Matrilineal (land was is controlled by women but men still lead politically and religiously) or Matrifocal (women are the center of family life but states and institutions remain male-dominated). However these existing societies neither show evidence of "wreaking havoc" historically nor presently. For example the Minangkabau of Indonesia the world’s largest matrilineal society pass land through women yet have maintained long term social stability and relatively low internal violence as noted in anthropological work by Peggy Reeves Sanday. The Mosuo of southwest China are another matrilineal culture where households are organized around maternal lines and “walking marriages” and studies by Cai Hua and Chuan Kang Shih describe low rates of domestic conflict and no history of expansionist warfare. Among the Haudenosaunee or Iroquois Confederacy archaeological and ethnohistorical research including work by Bruce Trigger and Dean Snow shows that clan mothers held authority in selecting chiefs while political systems emphasized consensus governance which some historians argue influenced early democratic models. Even in prehistoric debates archaeologist Marija Gimbutas proposed that Neolithic Old Europe showed relatively low fortification levels and fewer weapon burials compared to later Indo European layers suggesting less militarized societies though this interpretation remains contested by scholars like Lynn Meskell. These cases are not considered true matriarchies because political and ritual authority was often shared or dual rather than dominated by women yet taken together ethnographic and archaeological literature suggests that societies with strong matrilineal or matrifocal organization frequently displayed cooperative kinship structures and lower levels of institutionalized warfare than many rigid patriarchal states.

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[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cheating, my family, my best friends (I've got three, all of them must respect him and vice-versa), racism, casteism, ableism, homophobia, feminism, abuse of any kind, religion (I'm agnostic atheist for example, so he must not push his (or any) religion down my throat), my health (physical and mental), sex (nothing till marriage, he must understand this and not push it with me), pro-abortion (I don't plan on getting one cuz i don't plan on having sex anytime soon, but i'll support anyone who does no matter what and he must share this sentiment), the timeline I've made for myself and my current priorities aside from him (such as children (i do not want any till like my thirties when my career stabalizes, marriage around that time too) and my career), political beliefs (no andbhakts allowed), absolutely no traditional marriage (for example, I will not live with anyone's parents to become their live in maid, and will not marry a guy who lives with his parents at that age, I'm willing to move his dad (his mom passed away) into our home if he needs added-assistance, pay for his home entirely and visit every weekend, but I won't move in with him, and of course, I'll work, lead the marriage alongside him, you know the thing) and no open marriages or polyamory.

These and a couple other things like parental roles (if we become parents) and comfort with my constant moving are all things we've talked about and agree on (we were friends for a long time before making things official, so he was well aware of these things and shared all of them with me).

[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks1899561 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBushRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBushRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBushRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBushRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBush1 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]70sJungleBushRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]nightcall379Red Pill Man -7 points-6 points-5 points 5 months ago (52 children) | Copy Link

[–]kmb218Blue Pill Woman 10 points11 points12 points 5 months ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -4 points-3 points-2 points 5 months ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]kmb218Blue Pill Woman 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]kmb218Blue Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]kmb218Blue Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]kmb218Blue Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall3791 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Stop making shit up. Red pillers are the most disengenous people here. Can't argue with any of ye cause your world view ends in your room under your mama's basement. Talk about only certain type of women while most of ye haven't even been in a relationship

Literally zero argument, just an emotional outburst Lmao Calm down Lol

You do understand that if you're going to accuse someone of being dishonest, you have to point out where they're being dishonest, right?

So name a single red pill argument that is wrong

your world view ends in your room under your mama's basement.

Sure Lmao You have been repeating that for over a decade now:

"You're just a microscopic amount of nobodies living in your mothers' basements, the red pill will never go mainstream, you will always remain on the fringes of society"

And what do you have now? Lol

Trump won two election, and the western male population is voting more and more conservative each year, which by definition means that western men are now voting to take women's rights away, because women's rights in a conservative society is an oxymoron

What has 99.99% of women's history been like? Lul

You are the one that is saying women who are not aubmissive are not toxic

Lmao you don't even understand your own speech

Women who are not submissive are not toxic?

What is that even supposed to mean?

That women who are dominant are kind? Lmao

Do you understand your own speech? Lol

I said that women who are in love are not toxic

I literally explained it repeatedly

There is a reason why you people have all these stereotypes attached to you due to how dishonest you are

But when people repeat that back at you, you call it straw man, Lmao you don't even understand your own speech

I literally said:

Being in love might not make women want to be submissive

But it definitely makes them not want to be toxic and abusive

And you responded with:

So if a woman is not submissive, she is toxic and combative.

And who is being dishonest here? Lmao

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman [score hidden] 4 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall3791 point 4 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 8 points9 points10 points 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SecretGardenSpiderTrad woman 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a straw man.

You do understand that if you accuse someone of using a straw man, you have to actually explain where the straw man is, right?

I love my husband. I'm never going to be "naturally submissive and cooperative".

Me loving my husband doesn't mean that I'm suddenly not going to have my own opinions, wants, and desires.

You're straw manning by playing semantics with the definition of the term "submissiveness"

Where did I ever say that submissiveness means that the woman automatically stops having her own opinions, wants, and desires?

It's hilarious how the default female reaction to anything is to immediately play the victim who's being kept in slavery Lmao

Because that's the female get out of jail free card

Any objectively fair criticism?

"But subjugation!"

If the woman is being combative, toxic, and hateful to her partner it's only because she doesn't love him and only settled for him

No one's talking about having you barefoot and pregnant chained to the stove Lmao

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ilovebooks189956Blue Pill Woman[S] 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall3791 point 5 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SwimmingTheme3736happily married slut (woman) 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchAMarried ♀️ w/High Standards 💍 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Cool_Series_5469 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SwimmingTheme3736happily married slut (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SwimmingTheme3736happily married slut (woman) 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nightcall379Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shitlittleparrotNo Pill woman 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link