Far too many people believe that men not being able to acquire sex/relationships is a MORAL failing. This could not be further from the truth.

General_High_Ground · 2022-12-13T22:31:47+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

The thread. lol

Due-Lie-8710 · 2022-12-13T18:18:56+00:00

It shouldn't even be used as a judge of character because it implies that men have to require sex and relationships to be men which implies they must always pursue women , it is also one the things that promoted toxic behavior like nice guy syndrome

MarBitt · 2022-12-13T19:01:16+00:00

When I read about Brahmanism, I was intrigued by the concept, where good people are born into a good caste as a reward for their previous good deeds in past lives and bad people are born into suffering. I think, that it leads to high caste people not having incentive to help the lowly change their status. Because those from low castes do deserve their suffering, which they prove just by being in a low caste.

I noticed something similar when I read about some religious concepts in Christianity. God rewards good people with wealth and success, punishes evil people with poverty and failure. So wealth and success is proof that god likes the person in question and thus also proof of his morality. While the beggar is obviously immoral because he is poor and therefore hated by God.

The concept where the inability to get sex or a relationship is proof of the immorality of the man in question seems similar to me. And it has the same benefits for those who promote it.

But the question is whether it is false. Social morality is supposed to benefit society. So many moral principles essentially limit the rights of individuals and force them to conform to the pressures of society. Thus, most individuals who do not want to or cannot adapt to the pressures of society are immoral.

So from a certain point of view, especially those who are comfortable with the status quo, everyone at the bottom of society is really immoral. Because if he's immoral, that gives everyone above him the moral right to step on his head and feel good about it.

fantabroo · 2022-12-13T19:25:38+00:00

Excellent post!

It's important to recognize that having a successful dating personality doesn't necessarily mean that someone has a "morally good" personality. In fact, there may be a disconnect between the two. This is because the traits that often lead to success in dating, such as charm and charisma, can be used for both good and bad purposes.

The just-world fallacy, the belief that the world is fundamentally just and that people get what they deserve, is most likely what plays a role in this disconnect.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-12-13T18:53:45+00:00

I'd say it's the opposite. Most young men realize it's all about height and face now and that that's all women care about. You have to be blind and myopic to believe otherwsie, especially in the era of social media and dating apps.

catchtowards12345 · 2022-12-13T18:45:45+00:00

[permanently deleted]

EasyAnything4276 · 2022-12-13T23:24:16+00:00

I internalized a lot of self hate because of this.

insertcredit2 · 2022-12-14T09:55:18+00:00

I remember Jordan Peterson saying that if women aren't picking you they're right, you're wrong and they're right not to pick you.

I think he's correct in so far as if you're a fat lay about then you need to get your shit together but I don't see how that relates to normal guys who are trying hard at life and having no success with girls.

there was a study that showed only a third of men graduating university in the UK had had sex during their time there. I've either been in or worked in education my entire life and no where close to 2 thirds of the male students at uni are losers. They're normally physically in shape and in the top third of society in terms of intelligence and future earn potential. Are Women right to not be selecting these guys at such a high rate? Were women right to be dismissive of me when I was a skinny lanky dude but right to show me attention when I was noticeably tall and fit? My personality didn't improve.

MOProG2 · 2022-12-14T03:18:31+00:00

I agree. It's weird how much people try to push relationships on people.

shonenhikada · 2022-12-13T19:31:01+00:00

Research here already shows that the character trait women find most appealing to men are all anti-feminist. It's an interesting outcome of research that's currently being talked to on r/science. Sadly, mods here deem it "incel content".

https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/new-study-links-dark-triad-personality-traits-to-anti-feminist-attitudes-64502?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=linkedin

The “Dark Triad” refers to a cluster of related but distinct personality traits, comprised of Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy.

Machiavellians are characterized by their manipulation of others or the exploitation of situations for their own advantage.

Narcissists typically demonstrate a need for admiration, an inflated sense of self-importance, and a strong belief in their own superiority.

Meanwhile, psychopathic individuals exhibit a high degree of impulsive along with a lack of empathy and remorse.

[A lot of these trais we see in modern women's personality]

West-Ad-9697 · 2022-12-14T11:47:34+00:00

There is a sexual value judgement that we put on women/men - that blue pill spaces / politically correct spaces don't talk about and actively suppress - because it makes people feel uncomfortable.

It's something that men feel through microaggressions and it is sometimes hinted at in pop culture and in some female only spaces.

That value judgement is even further diffused by the "disney" story, of the nerdy guy that has actor looks and situational magic excites the great 10/10 gal with a heart of gold.

In reality, men that aren't confident, are seen as stupid.

If you are soft spoken and gentle in propositioning girls, it's seen as duplicitous or even potentially creepy and dangerous ironically enough.

If you want to get gentle loving sex, it's perceived as boring and selfish, while a more confident and more determined touch, is seen as passionate.

This is why TRP attracts and through it's deprograming - it used to deliver better results for the young men that adhered to it. (talking about the old one, not the women be whores sit and watch my content and give me superchats- modern red pill).

That is why the whole metaphor and Matrix fetish - the standards of society not only aren't getting men women, but are actively making men that are losers, mommy boys, gamer hermits even more unattractive and marginalized socially

serafixed · 2022-12-13T19:03:39+00:00

Social judgement is not a moral judgment

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KlingKlangKing · 2022-12-14T06:05:30+00:00

Yup. It's because they don't want to admit that being ugly, low confidence, shy etc makes you unattractive. They don't want to seem shallow

JixDiz · 2022-12-13T21:58:55+00:00

What.

feanoric · 2022-12-13T19:06:49+00:00

It does not matter.

In the past there was institutions for people who would not get married, such as monks or priests or nuns. Even sometimes school teachers were not expected to marry. Sure, the past was worse on many other aspects such as wars and illness, but I guess that is how it compensated.

However, as sex became the only currency for status in the West soon after the sexual revolution of the 60s, the dignity of people who are not attractive is being constantly put in question.

I doubt we can do anything about it. I think it is a cycle, societies become complex and tolerate status beyond sex, then they fall back into sex-only status, they get tired and return back, and so on and on.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-12-13T19:57:37+00:00

l start with an extreme example: criminals. There are plenty of drug dealing, murdering psychopaths devoid of morality that have no issue with getting sex. Serial killers serving life-sentences often have interest from women on the outside, and some of them even get married..

In my own personal experience, I’ve seen plenty of abhorrent men do fine on the dating scene. It’s often the case that men who are “rough around the edges” are more sexually appealing than those who are on straight-and-narrow

Incorrect. Murderers get married in SPITE of being rough around the edges not because of it.

Ted bundy was an attractive young guy who had admirers because he was attractive. The DUI boy who manslaughtered a family had admirers because he was attractive. It's not the other way round. Rough around the edges is far different from killing and hurting people. Riding a motorcycle and having tattoos and drinking and drugging is not the same as murder ffs

But yes. Sexlessness does not mean you're a bad person. I can agree with that part.

SoldierExcelsior · 2022-12-14T08:05:55+00:00

The men who can't are either unattractive not wealthy and famous with high status or not willing to simp and pander.

I'm not a Chad or famous and I dont flaunt my money, I'm frugal therefore I'm mostly invisible to women the only women that approach me are the ones that think I'm a simp an easy mark they ask for favors or money or to bring them lunch.Some will actually be willing to go on a foodie date if things have been slow.

You can get lucky and meet a woman that is really into you but for the majority of men this won't be the case and in the days of OLD and millionaire rappers poping up every day and girls having NBA players in their DMS many guys will just be invisible.How can you compete if your 5'7" and girls are being flown out by line backers and platinum selling artist.

Even average looking women get more attention and have more options than slightly average looking men and I'll never forget years ago this girl I was talking to called me a bum cause I wouldn't give her $1500 to get her hair done and buy her ticket for cruise ...the entitled mentality has only gotten worst...atleast they're upfront about it these days not 3 dates later,now they asking for money on their profiles.

CoalKnightBlk · 2022-12-13T18:46:21+00:00

There are levels to desirability. If you can pretend to be a woman for a moment. Think about what you would desire in a partner. I'm guessing it would be a mixture of physical and personality traits. Tall, physically fit, masculine facial features, Funny, driven, opinionated.

Whether we like it or not, men with psychopathic traits tend to at least be very desirable on the surface. The same can't be said for a "nice guy" who, more often than not, puts women on a pedestal and capitulates to her every desire, as opposed to being his authentic self.

Mind you, I would assume the perfect partner for a woman who is has positive traits that are outward facing: Dresses well, good-hygiene, naturally dominant + also has positive traits that match up with the outward facing one like: emotional stability, kindness, and so on.

Women, however, on many cases have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you want to be with a wimp or an asshole. I think the choice between those two options is clear.

RealAmericanWeasel · 2022-12-14T11:53:50+00:00

Completely meaningless if they’re working backward from what they already know about a person. Unless they can predict who is bad and unsuccessful beforehand, they’re just rationalizing.

Andre27 · 2022-12-14T23:02:40+00:00

This is what drives me away from a lot of women online and makes me see the point of redpill.

There are an insane amount of women online who claim that sex and relationships aren't a right, and that you just need to be a good, equal man, avoid misogyny etc etc, and then turn around and call someone an incel, misogynist or loser when they talk about a lack of success with women.

Redpill is so obviously bullshit for the most part, at least the "content" creators. But then somehow for some reason these women complaining about the red pill just prove it right.

Urbanwitch666 · 2022-12-14T08:02:09+00:00

I definitely don't.

My current partner had a 5 year dry period once. A close relative had about the same.

It's just normal. Especially for young introverts.

I fucking hate both purity culture and this bizarre obsession with men having to be studs.

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-12-13T22:31:06+00:00

It isn’t a moral failing, you’re right on that part. However, I suspect this is a bit of a straw man argument, because I rarely actually see this being claimed. There are a few common claims that are similar, but significantly different nonetheless.

One is that it’s a man’s personality keeping him from attracting women. Personality =/= morals. Immoral men who easily get women tend to have winning personalities, at least in the beginning. They’re charismatic and charming. This is also how they con other men and get away with what they get away with.

Another is that women don’t actually prefer bad men. Which is true. Usually, morality is simply immaterial to attraction. This is because as I talked about in the previous paragraph, bad guys are very good at not seeming like bad guys, at least to a certain demographic of women. Manson’s girls didn’t think he was bad. The women writing to serial killers are convinced they’re innocent. It may seem weird, but people can convince themselves of all sorts of things.

14ers4days · 2022-12-13T18:47:12+00:00

No one is saying not getting sex makes you a bad person. The particular type of men who come online to complain and harass and hate on women are bad people.

middleoftheroad133 · 2022-12-13T20:27:27+00:00

Who is claiming that only moral men get sex? It seems that RP men are the ones more likely to claim that moral men aka nice regular guys SHOULD get sex.

Sex isn’t a reward women dole out to men for being good. Sex is something women have with men they find or attractive, interesting, or nice to them. It’s mostly the men in this sub that think their ‘goodness’ should be ‘rewarded’ with sex

yamb97 · 2022-12-13T22:18:46+00:00

No one runs around telling random men on the street who don’t get sex they are moral failures. 99% of the time it is said in response to a man complaining they cannot get sex. The entitlement of thinking you should have a right to access someone else’s body is the moral failure.

AyowhatsgoodG · 2022-12-13T19:39:21+00:00

Lmaooo, she’s hella pretty too.

No_Reflection_798 · 2022-12-14T15:52:18+00:00

Excellent post.

We all know how men who are broken or dangerous are seen as being interesting to women, which also makes them sexy to women (which is probably because women get to have the fun, without having to worry about the consequences).

But, if you are not one of those men, and you have exercised reasonable amounts of effort towards yourself in order to make yourself more attractive to women, but you are not succeeding, then you need to be content with the thought that it's not your fault, and the fact that you did your best.

OkProfessional9405 · 2022-12-14T17:29:12+00:00

The state of dating is largely a function of Western Marriage Laws which make it very easy to extract a man's resource's without committing to a relationship with him. In extreme cases a man can get saddled with child support for a kid that isn't his and it can take years to prove otherwise with zero recourse if it is confirmed that he wasn't the father.

If you balance out the family law/child support system I think the current strategy of only being willing to date a top 5% guy becomes a losing one.

prizefighterstudent · 2022-12-14T17:31:06+00:00

Said it here and I’ll say it again — women, namely attractive ones, don’t care if you’re a good person. Dudes have been hoodwinked into believing this. Chicks who gaslight men on their moral failing when they voice frustration should be disregarded.

I think I’m a decent guy — it’s never factored into a woman’s attraction to me. In deciding to enter a relationship? Sure, it could and does factor. It’s not high on the list at all though.

MistyMaisel · 2022-12-13T20:32:27+00:00

So when we say someone is a bad person, I think we almost literally have two definitions.

The first is the one you're summoning, which is like a moral ethical definition. Don't murder, don't steal, don't swear in front of you granny, always tell the truth, make sure you hug your dad, protect the weak, etc. A very good definition if ever there was one.

The second one is almost weirdly more literal but it's like: are you good at being a person. Are you personable? Do you have a personality? Are you using the gift of life well? Are you interesting? Are you pursuing dreams? Are you famous or making history or stand out in some way? Are you boring? Are you doing what you're meant to do? Are you doing what you were essentially set up to do or are you fighting your nature and human nature in general and rising above whatever your set template is? Are you creating a beautiful simple life and just enjoying the splendor of it all? Do you make life brighter to live in for others?

The thing is...this is also a very good definition if ever there was one provided that you know, it doesn't get in the way of the first one. There's much more to being a person and living life than just not murdering people. If your best defense of your existence is that you aren't Ted Bundy, I mean, I think you've kind of just told me how little you think you have to contribute to the human experiment.

I think every life is valuable of course, but there is something which I think strikes all of us on a near moral level as repugnant about someone who is a sniveling, weak, pathetic, blamey, blimey, boring, and just over-all wasting the gift of life. It kind of is a moral failing, it's just not one that harms others in the same way you know like a serial killer does.

In some sense, you'd almost prefer the serial killer because they're so obviously awful, you don't even have to try to prove they're awful. But the boring tits of the world, like, there's nothing obviously evil about them, but there's something like offensively wrong about them anyway. At least the serial killer did something, right? , This second type of person is just like a great big nothing energy vampire. Like the human equivalent of a mosquito.

But yes, I do think being an unsociable bore is like a second order moral failing.

gofigure62 · 2022-12-13T19:58:48+00:00

The group of women that you're referring to have articulated that males who whine about about not being able to get women have behavioral traits and beliefs that they personally find repulsive. Not liking someone isn't narrating an opinion on their morality.

The issue is that males see sex as a reward and something that all men should be entitled to. And that a lack of access to sex is violence or abuse to them in some way.

They lack any ability to narrate the character of quality of a person a woman is who has sex with a murder or rapists.

To these males, they don't care about the character or likeability of a woman. They themselves would still have sex with a woman who had sex with a pedophile. They don't care about the mental stability or quality of person that a woman is. They only care about having sexual access to women.

So women saying that a man isn't likeable or good enough of a person for her to be sexually interested in, they can't comprehend this reasoning, because the male would have sex with a woman he didn't find to be likeable and he'd have sex with her regardless of whether he considered her to be a good or bad person.

AstronautLoveShack · 2022-12-13T18:24:01+00:00

I’d say it is the opposite. People believe it is a moral failing of women not giving undesirable men a chance. It is not.

Tyrion69Lannister · 2022-12-13T22:41:56+00:00

The more correct answer is that men who don’t get laid are either too inhibited, too selective, or both. If you don’t have any standards on who you fuck, there are a million options out there, and if you take initiative towards fucking those options, you would get laid quite a bit. This applies to women too.

Green-Quantity1032 · 2022-12-14T01:01:13+00:00

You said that people who can't get sex aren't a moral fail.

Then you went on to show that SOME people who can get sex are a moral fail.

How does that imply the people who can't get sex aren't moral failing?

Moon-on-my-mind · 2022-12-14T08:31:27+00:00

Sometimes i think only teenage boys post here, or the celibate boys that have dark and agressive tendencies.

Since i became an adult, matured out of a fried teen brain, not once did i judge, make fun of or look down on anyone having dry spells for no matter how long. Like wtf? Is this a USA specific thing? Is this a pill subs thing? Is this just people that never get out in society posting?

Like even now, i have 2 friends that have been single for many years and i don't even think of judging. Tried to hook them up now and then with single friends of mine, but they act normal, go out, live life...just normal guys. We go on vacations, we try to wingman if they see any cute girl they like...but they are not bitter, they don't hate women, they love women. If casual sex is what they got, fine with them,. lovely, a relationship will come their way ome day....if they don't spend every waking hour working.

Logical-Confection-7 · 2022-12-13T22:17:02+00:00

I don’t think women have said men who are not very attractive or that fit girlfriends later are bad. I think they are saying that a lot of guys who complain about that actually display very chilling bits of misogyny, vulnerable narcissism and aggressiveness, which in turn, many times are the bottom of why they are so unattractive. Many of them would have no problem getting girlfriends if it wasn’t for that. Take Eliot Rodger for example. He was even good looking and had a nice car, yet his “ugly” (according to Rodger) roommates all scored before him.

Many serial killers just become attractive just after they become noticiable by the public. Before that most of them are either struggling with having people liking them or just fake being good persons. I bet the night stalker didn’t even had female friends before he was identified. Ted Bundy was attractive before becoming a criminal for reasons unrelated to his crimes, and mason was a cult leader. So most of his women were completely Brain washed.

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2022-12-13T18:29:01+00:00

I don’t think I’ve ever seen that stated. If anything I consistently see women denigrated for not just ‘giving this or that guy a chance’ if anything I’d say the moral police are those angry they’re alone.‘it’s everyone else’s fault.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-12-14T00:06:56+00:00

Well I don't honey, I don't care anything about it. Most women I know don't even think about this.

DoinIt989 · 2022-12-13T22:54:54+00:00

Reproducing is literally your only purpose in life. If you can't get a relationship and/or give off the impression that you could be in one, that's a clear sign to others that "something is wrong with this person". And when something is wrong with you, that's triggers a fear instinct because people who are wrong might try to harm them and their family.

wtffellification · 2022-12-14T10:42:04+00:00

Even if moral character doesn't matter in terms of attracting a partner (I believe it does, it's just that a lot of people view morality as something completely arbitrary, artificial)

as a guy, what else can I really do but strive to be as good of a person as possible?

2022-12-14T04:57:59+00:00

No they don't. No one thinks a man is a morally bad person for not getting sex. There's just a huge overlap between guys who can't get sex and guys who end up hateful and sexist over it.

obviousredflag · 2022-12-14T13:57:54+00:00

Show us an example where someone thinks a man is has some kind of moral dysfunction for not having sex. I don't see that at all.

I'd be surprised if you found examples of people thinking looks make someone moral.

Pastakingfifth · 2022-12-14T13:34:47+00:00

You're for sure right, I would equate it to laziness though. There are so many resources out there on how to improve your looks and social skills that if you're not getting laid without any major physical or mental handicap then you're not trying or you're lazy.

SkavensWhiteRaven · 2022-12-14T19:39:47+00:00

Except that part where that's exactly what it is.

Look at all the stunted incels from the news the last few years.

Being unable to maintain healthy relationships is precisely a moral failure.

Ugly people get married all the fucking time because theres more to life than being good looking.

Shocking I know. /s

Inability to have intimate and sexual should be seen as a mental disability.

HighestTierMaslow · 2022-12-15T16:47:17+00:00

"This idea seems to be becoming more prevalent among women. I’ve seen it stated several times that men who can’t get sex must have some kind of moral dysfunction. They’re “bad people” because women don’t find them attractive, and they must be woman-haters or flagrant misogynists since they’re so unsuccessful with the opposite sex. I can’t overstate how dangerously wrong this idea is."

Ive never come across IRL women saying inexperienced men are morally failing. They usually assume he is very shy or has some other social problem. If a woman is calling that guy a misogynist he probably said something to indicate he is one.

Mr_Chad_Thunderpenis · 2022-12-15T18:09:53+00:00

It's funny because in reality, the opposite thing is true. The lower you rank on the morality scale, the more likely you are to get sex/relationships. The easiest proof of that is whether you are willing or not to use deception and subterfuge.

y2kjanelle · 2022-12-15T22:53:56+00:00

I don’t think it’s a moral failing necessarily, BUT please go look at the thread of incels calling to use artificial wombs to create sex slaves, rape women, and traffic them if they can’t afford the “artificially made” women themselves. Yeah those men are moral failures and I’m glad they’re alone and in pain. I’m unashamed that men who fantasize about creating, raping and trafficking women are alone and suffering.

But, I think for normal men who can’t get sex (and hopefully aren’t those dehumanizing rapey weirdos),

It’s more of a social disconnect with women. Women are still on guard of creepy men. Men still typically only befriend women they find attractive. Men are having trouble connecting with women on all levels of socialization.

And it’s specifically straight men. Studies have shown that gay men actually get along better with straight women compared to straight men. Their bonds are closer and they feel more comfortable around straight women than their own gender….

So this tells me it’s not all men who can’t get along with women, it’s men who want to have sexual and romantic connections with women. It’s a social thing.

70% of Americans are in long term relationships and 15% are looking and 15% opt out of dating. So it’s not doomsday for men. But I think there needs to be a relearning of how to connect with each other again.

publius2023 · 2023-01-12T04:37:50+00:00

It's probably because women view the world through their own experience (as do most people). Women have no problem with getting people to like them and want relationships, so they think that if a man can't do that, he must have a moral failing

ThunderLife92 · 2023-01-12T06:44:44+00:00

Yeah I treat my women well. I just haven't met someone cooperatelive.

Title	Far too many people believe that men not being able to acquire sex/relationships is a MORAL failing. This could not be further from the truth.
Author	Safe-Plankton-2376
Upvotes	294
Comments	339
Date	December 13, 2022 4:58 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/zl0l6d/far_too_many_people_believe_that_men_not_being/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/far-too-many-people-believe-that-men-not-being.1144005 https://theredarchive.com/post/1144005

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