Telling a feminist the truth.

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The biggest detriment to their movement, which started off with noble intentions, is that today's feminists treat it like a zero-sum game.

Uh, when did feminism ever have noble intentions? They sought the rights of voting when they did not also seek the responsibilities of harsh imprisonment for crimes, being equal in sewage working detail and slaughterhouses, or being drafted.

They did not seek parity in age of consent law when they upgraded it with lots of whining and raging from 13 to 16-18, although they wanted it up to 21. What they did want was teenage males to be punished for sex with teenage females, as well as adult males. See, 16+ year olds were referred to as "young women" for about the last 2000 years, and in particular, from 1900 to 1990, but don't you dare fuck young women. And yet, even as they use this colloquialism to try to say that they are matured people who deserve equal status, they then went on to suggest that the age of consent should be 21 "to coincide with other things like the min age to vote and the fact that women of 21 years or less are still child-like and naive".

Yes, you heard right, at the time the voting age was 21, but it was reduced to 18 only in the 1970s'.

At the same time, the age of consent was extended to 'protect' males and females under the limit in the 1970's, coincidentally only after stonewall and gays started becoming a political and social issue of rights/protection. The reason is simple, 20-60 year old men were having sex with 13-17 year old males, so to stop that the age of consent was expanded in gender.

Prior to that, feminists did not give one single shit about expanding age of consent protection to males, because they were only concerned with males manipulating females, not the reverse and certainly not with gay males since they were not really 'visible' at that point in time, and anyway gay activity would be 'solved' by imprisonment as for a crime.

Furthermore, social conventions have held that males having sex with females was deleterious to the female and a net gain for the male. Yet again another reason feminists demanded an age of consent for females but not for males. Because if a 40 year old woman had sex with a 13 year old male, he was 'gaining'. That's why even into 2000+ era people make jokes like "I wish my teacher had molested me" if its some hot female, or bill maher makes jokes about "come on, you really think its rape if a 13 year old male has sex with an older female" to which the audience actually LAUGHS. Then of course his segment mocking males in college who claim to have been victimized by sex with females.

So to all this, we see an attitude where sex for males is a net gain. Feminist ideology held and continues to hold that men were disgusting and sex driven monsters, females are not really sexual, and men are selfishly pursuing sex with women for their own pleasure and damaging females in the process (because apparently to feminism, females have ZERO AGENCY when it comes to sex).

They buttress that on the specter of "patriarchy", an omnipresent phantom of oppression that all males inherently take advantage of when dealing with women, whether they intend it or not. A bit like people claim a teacher fucking a student is inherently taking advantage of a position of power whether intended or not. Given this paradigm, it is no small wonder they view women as having zero agency in sex. After all, men seduce women at best, and are predatory by picking naive, vulnerable ones, at worst. Women, however, have evolved to finally have 'sex positivity' where they should fuck anything and everything they want... but they're still the default victim in a potential predator/victim scenario, where it ranges from "I regret having sex with them" to "I was too drunk to say no" to "I was unconscious".

Because you can short circuit anyone's mind by telling them "a guy recently told me that he regretted having sex with some woman, do you think she was acting predatory towards him?". And everyone will shout no. But reverse it and many will say yes.

Women's achievements do not have to be men's detriments. We need to focus on improving the lives of everyone.

The suffragette phrase was "votes for women, chastity for men". Feminism has been always about detriment to men. They wanted to control male sexuality and said as much, and every time men have given ground on sexual behavior, such as "what constitutes sexual harassment?", women have gone farther. Now sexual harassment is no longer "repeated unwanted sexual overtures", but "a single unwanted sexual overture". Now men are ruined every day by false #metoo style claims.

The reason is simple and obvious. If you achieve your goals and rape and sexual harassment start declining based on your current definitions of what constitutes either, then to keep your movement alive you must take the next logical step and expand those definitions to boost the numbers of "women's problems" once again.

[–]TrustTheDonald 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Why are people so insistent on this notion that feminism started off with noble intentions. It didn't. This is a misconception, a delusion or just bad history. Feminism always started off with a major pro-female, anti-male, bias. Historically, men haven't really had it easy either, and it's really not doing those men any service to just rewrite history under feminist lens where all women were subjugated and all men oppressed them. That is not how things are, or have ever been. Women have always had different forms of power and privilege over men, regardless of culture or politics. Feminism literally capitalized on that power to twist the narrative and empower itself as a movement. When have historically face countless inequalities, uniquely or disproportionately from women, and they were still completely ignored, twisted or dismissed in that "golden age" of feminism to benefit women.

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Feminism is the idea that women have less than men and need more. Otherwise it would be egalitarianism or the campaign for humanity or something like that.

Feminists insist they're not "all like that" ...

...Just the ones in the Guardian, or who wrote the SCUM manifesto, or the white feather campaign, or mattress girl, or Kirsten Gillibrand who took mattress girl to the State of the Union, or HeForShe, or the way we pretend male genital mutilation isn't as bad, or tell men not to rape, or that we "must believe" people who it turns out lied.

Those aren't "real" feminists. Unlike men's rights where a random one off poster is the spokesman, with feminism even published authors, tenured professors, the women who wrote the books that feminists read and refer to, none of those are "real" feminists. Real feminists want good things for everyone...they just do, stop questioning, stop thinking, submit, and take me at my word or you're argumentative and "the problem."

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[–]GingerRazz5 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can think what you want. The fact is, if the major organizations with power got called out by feminists the way they brigade other people who don't wear the label, I wouldn't have to imagine. I'd have something to see as proof.

The simple fact that I get argued against by feminists coming out of the woodwork when I talk about the gender sentencing gap, male disposability, father's rights, etc and seldom have any break ranks to point out that my argument is feminist for being about equality makes it not matter how many agree.

Though, to give credit where it's due, I agree rights are meaningless if not enforced. Even so, I don't think that's a woman only problem, and to focus on better enforcement of equality laws for women over the fact that the laws are blatantly discriminatory against men isn't what I call equality, it's what you call feminism.

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[–]Bjorn2bwilde24 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

"Reclaim feminism" requires that the feminist movement agrees that the movement has been hyjacked by radicials or that there are problems with feminism. That is unlikely to happen because...

They'll misdirect and say "that's not real feminism" or "that's not a true feminist" to distance themselves from radicals. Therefore you can't reclaim feminism if your reasons for trying to reclaim get dismissed because Group A isn't "true feminists" because Group B and C tells you.
The Feminist Movement has no structure to petition reform and any attempt to reform would further inflame radicals who believe feminism is under attack to draw more individuals to their side. Thus splitting groups apart which feminists don't want to happen for countless reasons.
Your attempts to reclaim feminism gets you labeled radical so you become the thing you tried to fix and get denounced by some of the more "mainstream feminism" (at least on appearence).

It sounds good in theory, but in practice it's unlikely to happen.

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[–]Uconnvict1231 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe feminism challenges the notion of women as care giver and naturally endowed mothers. So the issue of courts and unequal child support/care, (something I see many men complain about) is explicitly being challenged by feminism by trying to deconstruct the idea of women in that role.

If we no longer consider/commit to women as the "child bearer" (the one responsible for raising children) courts will no longer "always" (something I'm not sure is even true) side with the mother.

My biggest problem with what you are saying, and what I constantly see (literally multiple responses to my comments) is this unceasing narrative that "feminism" is one solid movement with everyone agreeing. Like feminists argue all the time over the correct way to manage things. I guarantee no anarcho-feminist is advocating for assumed female primary custody. So to say "feminist organizations did this!" Is meaningless because it cannot necessarily be applied to all feminists.

In short, feminism should be loosey defined as "equality between genders". Any statement beyond that would be unfairly lumping people together. Some feminists are literally Marxists that think we should ban private property, and some think capitalism is the route for women's liberation. They are in widely different places opinion wise.

[–]GingerRazz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe feminism challenges the notion of women as care giver and naturally endowed mothers. So the issue of courts and unequal child support/care, (something I see many men complain about) is explicitly being challenged by feminism by trying to deconstruct the idea of women in that role.

If we no longer consider/commit to women as the "child bearer" (the one responsible for raising children) courts will no longer "always" (something I'm not sure is even true) side with the mother.

As I said, feminist lobbying and organizations with power in the movement changed the paradigm from male assumed custody that was the norm in English common law. You can believe that feminism challenges this, but belief is not action. Start blaming feminists of the past and correct feminists when they blame it on the patriarchy. In more patriarchal times, kids were assumed property of the man, and feminism changed that.

My biggest problem with what you are saying, and what I constantly see (literally multiple responses to my comments) is this unceasing narrative that "feminism" is one solid movement with everyone agreeing. Like feminists argue all the time over the correct way to manage things. I guarantee no anarcho-feminist is advocating for assumed female primary custody. So to say "feminist organizations did this!" Is meaningless because it cannot necessarily be applied to all feminists.

I'm not saying it's one movement. I'm extremely aware of that and have implied that in multiple comments. Every (literal, not exaggerating)I feminists I meet they're the true feminist and others who disagree are not.

My point is that the feminist labeled organizations, lobbying groups, and academics are a problem. I care far less about the feminists without power, but I don't understand how people support a movement, even a loose collective, that seems to concentrate the most power in the hands of the worst.

In short, feminism should be loosey defined as "equality between genders". Any statement beyond that would be unfairly lumping people together. Some feminists are literally Marxists that think we should ban private property, and some think capitalism is the route for women's liberation. They are in widely different places opinion wise.

You seem to cling to a label that accomplishes acts you claim to dislike when egalitarian means the same thing and lacks the power distribution issues.

In short, anything beyond an MRA is someone who advocates for men's rights is lumping people together unfairly. Do you believe men should have equal rights to women, then you're an MRA and to not be an MRA is to be sexist.

Your argument doesn't sound good from the other side, does it?

Also, you're going with a perscriptivist definition rather than descriptivist. I don't feel that the changes made in the name of feminism have been good on average and will tell you why if you have questions.

I want people to fight for equality, but feminism is far too often used to berate men and dismiss their issues. Feminism is all moving goalposts and has honestly reached a saturation of usage due to shaming people for not assuming the label that the label has lost all meaning.

[–]Uconnvict1231 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't cling to labels, you're the one constantly saying "feminism is all moving goalposts" "feminist academics" as if they are one collective. You claim you don't see it as a collective, than proceed to state your case like it is. Honestly you contradict yourself multiple times.

I don't think there's value in just saying "feminists believe this" because that's meaningless. It's like saying "Americans believe this". Do I support trump because he's our president? All of what you've written reads as a rant against an imagined group of people that supposedly do things you disagree with.

This conversation went exactly as I thought it would. A rant against some evil cabal of feminists, somehow claiming that all feminists aren't the same, why lumping all feminists into a single bracket. I'm a feminist. I don't give a shit about random organizations that claim to be feminist.

[–]GingerRazz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Uconnvict1231 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I completely believe that you have organizations and names of people. What should've been clear, and maybe this on me, is that I don't care about those people. They don't represent feminism beliefs just as much as Donald trump doesn't represent the beliefs of all Americans. They have a very narrow, very specific form of feminism that I, and a number of feminists, don't necessarily agree with. So sure, disagree with those people, but at least aknowledge that they aren't some massive purveyor of all that is feminism.

You mentioned feminist organizations that changed English common law etc etc. Do you have a decent source for that? I've heard the claim, but have never thoroughly investigated. Please try and provide a decent unbiased source.

In the end, I'm sorry you have the experiences you did with the feminist movement. I'm a white male and have found the vast majority of feminists, especially professors, have been extremely inviting and accepting. They were some of the nicest and most helpful people I met in school.

[–]Cell-el1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So sure, disagree with those people, but at least aknowledge that they aren't some massive purveyor of all that is feminism.

Only according to you. They would disagree. And if they are not then who is? Who gets to decide what feminism is and what it stands for? Because if nobody does then feminism essentially is just something you're all making up and is useless. It is whatever the person who wants to use it decides that it is.

Now feminism, the one that has a real world effect, is very clearly and very obviously a hate group aimed at men. So why should anyone care about what you think feminism is? You have no power to do anything or to influence the real world actions of the group. All you do is lump yourself in with them and contribute to the numbers they use when they want to pass laws.

[–]Uconnvict1230 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nobody gets to decide what it is. That's the point. That's the point of my whole argument here. My biggest criticism of people coming from a "I don't like feminism" angle is simply that "feminism" has a massive array of meanings. Again, a simplified definition is literally the only way anyone can make criticism of a "movement" that contains literal communists, alongside capitalists. Would you lump Milton Friedman in with Karl Marx and say they belong to the same group? Yeah, they're economists in a sense...

I'm not going to argue with someone who pains that feminism is very obviously a hate group aimed at men. Seriously? "You have no power to do anything" uh yes I do. Are you claiming people can only be political by joining interest groups or something? I can promote my brand of feminism just as much as anyone else can

End of conversation, I'll wait for the one person who was at least reasonable.

[–]Cell-el1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nobody gets to decide what it is. That's the point.

Then it is nothing. That's the point.

My biggest criticism of people coming from a "I don't like feminism" angle is simply that "feminism" has a massive array of meanings.

Which makes it meaningless.

This is what is referred to as a motte and bailey doctrine. You want to portray feminism as being both an objective thing and a subjective thing at the same time. You can't do that, at least not honestly.

If everyone has their own definition of a word then the word conveys no useful information and has no possible value in regards to the real world.

Again, a simplified definition is literally the only way anyone can make criticism of a "movement" that contains literal communists, alongside capitalists.

Feminism is not a movement. It's an ideology. That's why there's the "ism". It may have literal communists and capitalists rubbing noses together but they are united in the ideology and it's teachings.

As I said, there is a feminism that has a doctrine and an ideology. That is what people are talking about. If you want to be some pointless buffoon who just calls themselves a feminist because reasons, that's your perrogative. But it's your fault for associating yourself with the ideology if you do not believe in it.

I'm not going to argue with someone who pains that feminism is very obviously a hate group aimed at men.

Prove that it isn't. I'm confident I can prove that it is. Are you?

See this is where your position bites you in the ass. If your position is true and you don't want to be a hypocrite then my claim that feminism is a hate group is equally as valid as yours.

The difference is that I am saying I can prove it objectively. Because I don't need to hide behind rhetorical tricks.

"You have no power to do anything" uh yes I do.

No. You don't. If so, then go and stop all those radicals that are making you look bad.

I'll wait.

Are you claiming people can only be political by joining interest groups or something?

No. That's just your lack of logical comprehension talking.

I can promote my brand of feminism just as much as anyone else can

But you can do nothing which will effect the mainstream of feminism. You're useless, but too cowardly and arrogant to acknowledge it, or start being of use. That's why you identify as a feminist I'm guessing? So you can do nothing, but still say you're fighting the good fight because of a label?

I'll wait for the one person who was at least reasonable.

Name one unreasonable thing I said and how it was unreasonable. And please be specific.

End of conversation

As I said, you're a coward.

[–]Uconnvict1231 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Cell-el1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GingerRazz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let me try to find a source for you. I'm on mobile and my bookmarks on my computer have most sources I reference. In the mean while, just remember surnames passed from man to child, and that is because they were seen as his and his responsibility. This is one part of patriarchy feminism had right was male lineage which included paternal rights.

I understand your stance on feminism not being a monolith, and I will agree, even if I disagree with you, you are more civil than most people who use the label.

My issue with feminism as the label and how impossible it is to question people using that label. It's become a meaningless term in modern parlance used to attack an outgroup.

I can enjoy discussion with individual feminists, and this has been surprisingly pleasant in spite of me being heated at times. I just feel that people who use the label are propping up powerful organizations that are hateful. To me, calling yourself a feminist isn't all that different from a blond hair, blue eyed person of German decent calling themselves Arian and not realizing they are propping up white supremacists. The abuses done under the term has toxified the term for so many people I can't understand how anyone would identify as one.

My whole point is that the ones with power in the word are the worst of the batch. I don't believe you are like them, but I also don't think you are protesting against their abuses of a label you hold dear.

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[–]Uconnvict123-5 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's a number of responses I won't bother with.

You ask why. The reason is because attacks on "feminism" aren't coming from an honest place. They aren't attacking because it's not "egalitarianism" they are attacking because (whether they even realize it or not) they don't want equal rights for women. That's the crux of the issue. If all the feminists switch to egalitarianism, the same attacks will take place. And before people get their panties in a bind, yes, I'm sure SOME attacks on feminism are fair.

The problem isn't nomenclature. Not changing the name is standing up to the same powers the "movement" (feminism) are fighting against. You're asking a movement of women (who feel they are subservient in society) to change their name because the people they disagree with it have an issue. You can't see the irony (problem) in that?

[–]Chad_McHaymaker4 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]GingerRazz3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'd like to point out that feminism as a whole has been pushing the degendering of language from police man to police officer, etc. Somehow, though, the name of the movement is always defended as reasonable gendered term. To me that is the irony.

Additionally, you say many of us are misogynistic and don't want women to have equal rights again. I say tell me a right women lack that men have. I can do the reverse.

I see you as not wanting to discuss or acknowledge men have legal rights issues that get less attention than man spreading.

You are making feminism look bad (most feminists do) by coming here, saying we're wrong, and refusing to actually discuss and engage honestly.

I can promise you, when I use you as an example of what is wrong with feminism, people will tell me you are not a true feminist.

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relevant quote by Karen Staughn.

extremists? explain the following extremists heading the movement then. are they just radicals too?

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

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[–]Chesterlespaul 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Men’s rights makes me cringe sometimes. You can tell some of them already dislike women for whatever reason, and when given an excuse to pull the victim card they fucking are ready to duel. They don’t care what the post is they just want extra ammo in their arsenal on why women are shit. And yeah the same exact thing happens to these extremist SJW women.

I have a theory that much of this is people not satisfied with where they are on their own totem pole. Like, most of the women are overweight and unattractive and are mad at men for not giving them attention like the prettier girls. Same thing for those guys, probably unattractive and mad that girls always want a ‘chad’, who’s only sin is being in shape and not clingy. Seems like a lot of sexual frustration. They hate each other and in the end those girls are the best those guys could do sexually and vice versa.

[–]j-dawg-94 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]RelevantElection9 points 8 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

cringe

Anyone who uses the word "cringe" as a shaming tactic is a low intelligence person who is trying to put other people back in the box they themselves live within.

The difference between a conservative and a liberal is that a liberal can be shamed into submission on the pretense that doing otherwise would be "cringe."

Sometimes if you are a 2, you gotta eventually accept you are a 2. It sucks, but it sucks less then making it the focal point of your entire life and not getting laid because you only wanna fuck 8s and up.

Just give up and accept the shit you've been given. I am above you, and you need to accept you deserve nothing in life. JUST ACCEPT THAT YOU'RE BELOW ME YOU FUCKING COCKROACH.

Black men, sometimes you just need to accept that you're black and not deserving of anything good in life.

Women, sometimes you just need to accept that you were born a woman and don't deserve anything good in life.

Why is is so hard for you black people and women to not submit to me? Why don't you accept your place, below me?

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I won't get offended, I'll explain my opinion to anyone who asks, I'm going to say being feminist is a lot more palatable to the mainstream than being an MRA but I don't mind filling in the blanks for anyone who wonders why.

I am a woman. I see the social ramifications of what I do as unfair and biased, not completely imposed because of men but because of society, I think most women's rights issues in NA are because we are due for a change in perception as to what a woman should be societally.

I was a child, born to an unfit mother and a pretty good father and I was forced via our legal system to stay with her to my disadvantage. I still watch my mother get away with things she shouldn't and I have a lot of pent up bitterness about all the things that happened to me because of our biased laws.

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[–]-manatease 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]j-dawg-94 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't have to be "that men do" abortion rights seem to be threatened at every 2nd state wide, or provincial election.

I know there are some mixed feelings on the whole #MeToo movement but the new reality where people are less ashamed to call out their accusers has done good things for men and women, look at the Terry Crews stuff! Or even more recently the callout of female abuser Asia Argento. Or even the backlash from the falsely accused Jeremy Piven. I get the whole #MeToo thing is heavy handed and makes the public the jury, judge and executioner which isn't okay, but my hope is, and what I've noticed is people feeling more able to draw attention to the rampant nature of these sexual assaults.

My country is right now in a feud with Saudia Arabia and receiving no support from other countries in calling out their persecution of atheist and feminist activists.

And then finally social justice, which everyone seems to be in favor of for boys but not for girls here, which I think are just two sides to the same coin, girls you are loved and valued but your role should be submissive and family oriented, and boys you should be tougher but you can be whoever you choose! Obviously this is a short and not at all in depth arguement for social justice but I'm not going to write a novel, there are plenty of others who have.

Hope that even if these things aren't anything you care enough to campaign for personally you at least understand why some do.

[–]-manatease 24 points25 points26 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Abortion: Men don't have a right to legal/financial abortions, we are told to abstain/"keep it in our pants" and called "deadbeat" dads when we can't keep up with - at times - wildly inflated 'child' support costs. No reproductive rights whatsoever besides becoming a monk.

MeToo: terrible but revealing change in society. People (mostly men) getting ejected from their careers on the mere word of an individual is a terrifying step towards a Soviet snitch culture where the motivated can clear the upper steps of the ladder very easily. Plus there is no mention of young women using their sexual power to gain access to and influence powerful men. It's a two way street. (When was the last time you saw a female CEO marry her male secretary or other underling? Women marry up so the whole "power differential" argument is stacked against men when women are targeting them for genuine relationships.)

Social Justice: the issue is the lying. A small percentage less girls than boys are receiving an education worldwide. But there are more boys than girls worldwide, so this cancels out. But money is thrown at this left, right and centre as if it's a massive scandal confirming Full Patriarchal Oppression (FPO). Same with STEM or pretty much anything else.

I personally don't care whether the midwifery profession - for example - remains 100% female. I really and truly don't and it's only flawed ideology that looks at imbalances in numbers and sees sexism at play. (Well, they don't when it's women who are the majority, only when it's men).

[–]j-dawg-94 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Parenting rights and issues are something that I 100% agree is the largest issue in North American Men's Rights right now, you will receive no argument from me on that front, but it doesn't negate the fact that women should be able to choose to have an abortion if they want to. I feel like the women's issue of illegal abortions has nothing to do with the men's rights issue, and my personal opinion is if the man gets no say in if an abortion will take place (and he shouldn't) he should be able to legally disown the child, and not be held responsible financially and also rescind any parental rights.

It is absolutely a two-way street. I don't disagree with this at all either. The powerful women choosing younger partners happens less but it happens too. All the #MeToo examples I cited were times it benefited men (intentionally), but I recognize it is currently mainly helping women.

Social justice I didn't really mean just education, it's a pretty broad definition, honestly I thought more women were educated than men in all statistics I have read. I more meant the way men vs women are treated in a, you know, social setting. I think the "perks" women have socially can be flipped and perceived as negative if you aren't the type of woman who subscribes to a traditional viewset of who you want to be. I think the same is true for men, stay at home dad? LOSER. Career woman? Neglecting your children! Or old spinster, no family, unfulfilled life.

I think the thing is, none of these male-centric issues have an official platform from all feminists. You can hear my opinions all you want, and I AGREE with you, but it won't make it true for everyone because I am not a part of any specific organization perpetuating my rhetoric beyond occasional conversations with my peers.

[–]-manatease 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You seem like a very reasonable person. Just to clarify the education statistics, Western women and girls are doing much better than men in the education system, yet there are relentless campaigns pushing for more scholarships and opportunities for them. Feminists need to look worldwide to find a numerical picture to support any discrimination claims, but they don't adjust for worldwide population so are wrong.

Re choosing what to be, male behaviour is a reaction to female behaviour (and vice versa, but women choose mates in our species) so the increased divorce rates for non-breadwinning males is evidence that it's not men's fault that this utopia is not realised (and wont be for a long, long time if ever). Men don't judge women's choices anywhere near as much as other women do either.

The issue these days tends to be feminist women (mostly pre-child) shaming mothers for not wanting to waste their lives in work, the majority of which isn't as interesting or fulfilling as the work champagne socialist promoters of feminism tend to do. The stats of the rise of feminism speak for themselves... the proportion of childless women over 45 has risen from 1 in 9 to 1 in 5 over 50 years or so.

Btw, I am an ex de facto feminist until I independently researched it. I agree with most of what you say and think such logical thinking can only lead you to checking statistics when used, which in turn should perhaps expose to you the hysteria gravy train that feminism is.

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I'm gonna start this off by saying that I believe equality for everyone is important.

I think by attributing values such as truth and honesty on to a specific group you are automatically disqualifying any other group from that. I don't agree with that. In any movement if you start with a premise of our group is better than yours there is a major problem. Most mens rights activists say that they feel like we are equal. Not above. But there are inequalities in law and opportunity that should be addressed.

I'm pretty sure we are saying the same thing though. The values that you adopt as a group don't automatically create value in the group, you have to live the values for them to create value. I was specifically addressing that, not a groups intrinsic value based on personhood. I firmly believe that each of us start out with equal intrinsic value, and only through our positive or negative actions do we either gain further value or diminish our own value, but that value doesn't have to do with our natural characteristics such as race, sex, gender, disability, origin etc.

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At no point did I say that or imply that. That is simply a strawman born out of dishonesty on your part, or not having the ability to understand the logic of what you yourself are saying. Or admittedly both at the same time.

If feminism is determined by the individual then it and it's claims have no descriptive ability in regards to reality. It is entirely subjective. Which makes it effectively useless except as a rhetorical tool.

In simple terms, you are admitting that it's all just made up.

That's the thing about feminism, it doesn't really specify a belief set about men at all

And that's a lie on your part anyways. Since it does specify beliefs about men. It specifies that all men are responsible for womens oppresssion, for instance. Since they only give power to men in society. They even said so in the Declaration of Sentiments.

See, this sort of thing was the point of the video I linked to you before. It's the feminists like you that give the whole group a bad name. Not the "extremists".

Edit: I would also point out, as an afterthought, that even if your strawman were accurate, the point would still stand since feminism claims itself to be an equality movement. So it would need to consider men, necessarily (it takes at least two sides in the equation to equalize something). If it doesn't, then that shows just how much equality means to them.

[–]j-dawg-94 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Cell-el 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You said, that because feminism doesn't specify a belief set about men it is implicitly worthless

It is, because it has no specified belief and everyone decides it individually. Which is what it should NOT be doing if it is to have any objective value. You're the one who latched onto the man thing specifically. Don't blame me for your own failures.

which I believe to be synonymous to if it's not about men it is worthless.

What you believe is rather irrelevant to the conversation.

I don't know how you figure you did not say or imply that,

Of course you don't.

if there is some misunderstanding elaborate because it

I just did in the post you're responding to.

because it seems your entire point is that as there is no ideological standpoint on men it is without value.

This is true, as I explained in my edit. But that was not my actual point. This is just your strawman of my point.

I never said I made it all up.

You did, just implicitly.

I'm saying the feminist part of my beliefs encompasses a part of my egalitarian beliefs.

Which you say are determined by the individual correct? Or, to put it another way, you believe that people have a personal version of feminism? Then my point remains. It is all made up.

A time where that would have been true.

No it would never have been true. You just want to believe that as a feminist. That's why people label you all as man-hating bigots. Because all of you perpetuate these kinds of lies and misinformation. Then shake your heads in confusion when some women want to #KILLALLMEN.

Not to mention that the Declaration is one of the cornerstones of what feminism is and it is specifically anti-male.

That aside, so you're saying that you were wrong about feminism having no specified beliefs about men, then? Or just lying about it?

Or just look at aspects of feminist theory like strong objectivity, or standpoint theory. Those as well are based on beliefs about men and "male-dominated" society.

I'm not sure what video you're talking about honestly.

The one I linked in a different response to some of your nonsense. You were trying to claim that you were trying to No True Scotsman about the feminist "extremists" and why you can't hold their behaviour to other feminists and feminism at large.

[–]marauderp 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You are so fucked in the head. Do you think men can’t be into feminism? You don’t think men want equal treatment for women? That’s like assuming no white people in history have ever stood up for the lives of black people. That’s ignorant. You’re ignorant.

As compelling an argument as “you are so fucked in the head” is, I will reply. Once. So I hope you got all your points out.

Men can be feminists. Or allies. Feminists aren’t exactly sure if a male can hold the title.

I think men want better than equal treatment for women, which is also what women want. I think women have better conditions than men now, and have for some decades.

People’s sex, race, nationality etc. doesn’t stop them from supporting any particular cause no. However a male feminist is even more morally culpable and intellectually deficient than a female one, as he should have had the life experience to help contradict the feminist worldview.

Kind of like how a black slave working a plantation in the past is more morally culpable for supporting the enslavement of his people than their owner wielding the lash is.

Besides, have you seen male feminists? They only go cosy up to women because they were first rejected by the men. Never picked for the team. Always bullied at school. Sickly, and unable to take a punch. These are the panty sniffing male allies of feminism.

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Wow, three weeks old. But okay.

I'm clearly responding to a user who has said this:

There are MRAs that make comments like, women only care about money and their upvotes are in the hundreds...I'm sure if you've spent any amount of time here you've seen it.

And he's clearly full of shit. There are thousands of comments that are upvoted in the comments, but j-dawg and users like him who make similar accusations can't even find even one that says what he is saying are common. And that between the lot of them!

any MRA public figures are closeted

Ha. *cough*. Like KS, PE, WF, MB, AT, HW (lesser known), HC (lesser known?), JtO (forget his actual last name), JF, OH (lesser known in the anglosphere). I looked up the last two because I remembered them specifically but not their names. I quickly put together the others from memory though. I'm missing some really important folks. In any case, these are all clearly closeted /s.

There are of course, many more to choose from. This is absolutely sufficient data for a meaningful answer.

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[–]Fuckoff555 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The brigading and the number of people who are defending feminism here (and how much they are upvoted) REALLY REALLY fucking disgust me, cause of how much that is damaging to men's rights movement and men's rights in general. If those so called ''feminazis'', aka misandrist feminists, are the the swords that are fucking men up, then those who are defending feminism as a movement are the shields that are making it possible for those man hating feminists to have a powerful voice and to have a powerful platform from where they can fuck men up as we have seen from the sexist laws that they have passed, or from the bills, that would have made things equal for men, that they have blocked.

Feminism has a very strong presence in the West and It has a very big influence on campuses and in the political field. So if there are some misandrists in the movement and especially if they are in a position of power, they can do some serious shit to men as we have seen already. It's not always some sexist bitch who is just a no one in the Internet and who is just saying some sexist stuff, a lot of times it's in fact a sexist bitch that can carry on with what she's saying and wil actually hurt men.

And with how much men's rights movement has no power to oppose those sexist feminists, especially because of how feminism has branded anyone who wanted to be an MRA as a ''mysogynist'' for the past 50 years, and we know sadly how much weight does that word have as opposed to the word ''misandrist''. Even politician don't or can't in some cases oppose them cause even if those feminists are wrong, the first word that they will scream is '' mysogynist'' and that will make those politician loose support. So now only the '' real and good feminists '' that are defending feminism on the Internet are left to actually do something, yet they really think that denouncing this shit on the Internet when they sense that feminism is being targeted will actually fix things, when in fact what they are doing is only defending the platform that misandrist bitches will use to shit on men without any actual opposition.

[–]DecentPiccolo26 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

The biggest problem with mens rights is that everyone is far too accepting of anyone and everyone. On feminism forums they ban people for posting in forums of people they don't like politically, it doesn't even take actual action or rulebreaking to get banned, whereas in mensrights feminists can try to be condescending and dismissive all day, play to this ambiguous "other feminism" that we never see in practice, and nothing happens.

If NOTHING else, it's obvious which side is fine with discussion, and which side shuts it down by default, through condescension, because feminists are afraid of the free trade of ideas.

Feminism is in fear-response mode now that there is pushback. Don't forget, one of the chief drivers of #metoo has been found to have sex with underage actors, within the last few days. This all is a fear response. They can't engage in discussion, they know this, because they'll lose.

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You seem to think I just insulted feminism for some reason. Since your reading comprehension is a bit lacking ere, I'll clarify this for you.

Feminism is a women's advocacy movement-- nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with that, except when you try to claim it's about men, too. Or when you pervert it into man hating drivel, that's bad too.

Men's Rights is a men's advocacy movement-- nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with that, except when you try to claim it's about women, too. Or when you pervert it into woman hating drivel, that's bad too.

Because of that, I don't go around saying "feminism isn't necessary." I know that women have issues that need to be addressed, and I support them on a fair number of them. But when they claim that feminism is for men, too, that's misleading (at best). In exchange, I expect reasonable feminists to acknowledge that men have certain issues as well that should be addressed. Those who do not acknowledge it are generally not reasonable people. It's really that simple.

So I don't really know what you think you're so slyly pointing out here when you say I'm a feminist for men. I'm simply an egalitarian who agrees with certain aspects of both movements, and acknowledges the common shortcomings of each. My previous comment even said "Bingo" to a comment that said "there is nothing wrong with feminism."

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I consider myself a feminist but in the last 10 years or so these people have given "social justice" a bad name

I think social justice has given social justice a bad name.

It's not just men can't be sexist, but also whites can't be racist. It's not only cool for SJW's to hate men, but also to hate white people. Can you show me a social justice issue that isn't destroying the host country's culture, or hates on either men or white people? Or those who doesn't want other's religions forced down upon their throat.

If I go to another country, I make damn sure I like the culture there, and I adjust myself to fit in that society. I won't force the country to change for me because I'm a minority. But that's what is happening everywhere around the world because of social justice, and it destroys cultures.

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[–]GingerRazz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I believe everyone should have a voice here. I down vote and argue against the incel crowd, but they can speak all they want.

Also, I don't keep them as company, not quite. I spend as much time debating with and discussing with feminists and I'm sure not one of them. I don't believe in guilt by association, and I don't like censorship.

Venting about the abuses of feminism is fine by me, but insulting women rather than their position granted to them in society is not ok with me.

I'm annoyed by the incel influx here, but they're here because reddit shut down their sub, and I see arguing against them as better than kicking them out. Obviously banning their sub didn't magically make them vanish and make reddit a more civil place.

I discuss in many places, far more irl than on Reddit. I just have this on my list of places I keep up with. I also sub to and have posted in MRA hate defending the movement.

I'd rather use my speech here where I might be able to help incels than create an echo chamber that bans and silences angry and lonely people.

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[–]GingerRazz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I haven't, but it fits with my theories I formed from working child care. I should read it. I believe that matriarchal structure of the lives of children had led to male dysfunction. I know for the first 18 years of my life, outside of martial arts, close to 99% of the time a woman was my authority figure.

Martial arts taught me to respect and channel masculine energy for good, and it was a thing I Saw lacking in the lives of many boys who grew up around me. I see masculine power as dangerous because power without good direction toxifies, and modern life doesn't give masculinity a healthy direction and purpose.

I see feminism as demonizing masculinity because it lacks direction. They don't acknowledge the great good we'll directed masculinity has done because they focus on the undirected masculinity that turns into aggression and violence.

I want to mentor boys to channel their masculine energy to bring society to higher levels, but I spend most of my time just defending masculinity to protect boys and men.

Masculine energy channeled in a healthy way is beautiful, and I want society to accept that. Right now, we enjoy the benefits of it while, as an average, we demonize it.

For the feminists here: I believe we'll channeled feminine energy is a thing of beauty, too. My fiancee has pushed me to be better and has nurtured the broken (me included). Men and women are biologically made to be a team, and it needs to stop being an us and them battle, and I feel feminism encourages that or male subservience.

Edit: I'm drunk and dyslexic, so please forgive my typos.

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Nah this is ridiculous. On group has active Nazi who wish to eliminate people. The other screams on Facebook. If your values pick the annoying thisng over the actually physically dangerous thing, your priorities are rediculous. Nazis are worse and will always be worse than feminazis.

Edit: I've read your replies. You people are still rediculous and frankly sad. Did you every think that by putting your energy into being against femenism you are centering your world around women. If you are instead pro-egalitarian you can live your life and work towards equality without having something to react against. You aren't children, maturity is about doing good outside of rebellion.

It's hard find a group of quality men to hang out with because a majority of them are full of men with chips on their shoulders and huge insecurities looking to blame someone else for their short comings. I can be pro men's rights but always get weirded out by you MRA's.

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[–]WiseMonkeyGoodMonkey 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fascism is fascism. The venue matters not so much. And if you don't think there are femenazis out there that aren't physically dangerous you are not paying attention. Spend 10 mins going over the posts in just this sub and you'll see what I'm talking about.

And on eliminating people it's possible the Nazis were not worse off. They were epic genocide causing douches for sure. The feminist being discussed here have advocated reducing the male population to 10%. So not total genocide of a single demographic, but far more actually dead.

I can't believe I keep having to point this out. Feminism is not and never will be about equality and justice for men as well as women. There's already a movement for that and it's called egalitarianism. Please note there was no need to prepend a gender specific value to the name.

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I mean for others, it's easier to assimilate what alt righters are. Theyre such a parody of extreme conservatism that they're a known quantity. There's less of an insidious creeping damage to society because less and less people take them seriously every day. Their patron saint Trump is slowly losing his grip on reality and the world is just kind of shaking it's head at all the nonsense.

The effect of ignorant feminist propaganda is more insidious because it promotes hate in the name of a good and noble cause, and millions of innocent people are getting drawn in by it's promise of equality and justice for all. Very quickly a diluted message that hating 50% of the population is the only way of achieving that goal is spreading among ignorant, impressionable women.

That's scarier to me. Alt right buffoons will be spawned from alt right families and be limited to those walks of life and people with that political alignment. Feminism is universal and seen as the leading light in making the world a better place, and every woman in existence has the ability to ingest this message when it is offered to them and are then capable of raising hopeless, emasculated boys and more warrior females. These ignorant women are literally able to take life into their own hands from the moment people are born.

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[–]BeneficialBlock[M] [score hidden] 8 years ago stickied comment (8 children) | Copy Link

Image Text
BOYS NEED TO BE TOLD THAT THEY'RE AMAZING.BOYS NEED TO BE TOLD THAT THEY'RE WORTHY OF LOVE.BOYS NEED TO BE REMINDED THAT THEY ARE SMART FUNNY AND PERFECT NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS THINK BOYS NEED POSITIVITY.
Comment: This is the literal opposite of my feminism
Response: Then your "feminism" is shit

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Boys and men generally don't like platitudes as much as girls.

For whatever reason, I feel like we don't value these blanket "You are amazing" compliments like girls do.

They feel manipulative and fake.

Clearly being positive and encouraging is important to boys, but I think it should be framed from a perspective of effort and curiosity to learn new things.

They should be told they are loved and supported, but telling a boy he is "amazing" when he isn't will just give him an unrealistic view of his place in the world.

This is a problem with not just boys, it's a big problem with girls as well.

They are constantly told things about themselves that aren't true.

Brittany is going to a state college with a solid B average, she may be a nice person, but telling her she is "amazing" is not helping her when she has to get a job and actually be good at it after college.

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Feminism is wack. I'm reading Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth right now, and while it's worth reading, it's filled with so much ideological bullshit. Like saying women in North America work more hours than men, because they do more housework on average.

Housework is barely work. Maybe it was in the 1950's before the laundry machine and dryer were invented, as well as vacuum cleaners, but these days, women just put a load of wash in the washing machine and then lay on the couch watching Real Housewives Of Atlanta, then they count that as "an hour of labor."

And it's funny how they don't count the housework men do as "work." My old man is always outside, cutting lawn, fixing vehicles, fixing the air conditioner, servicing the furnace, cleaning leaves out of the eavestrough, and on and on, but he would never count that as "work." It's just life. It's the same way I don't count wiping my ass after a shit an "hour of labor."

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Funny you mention that, because I do! Have you seen the amount of downvoting and reporting I've done of screeching manhating? Probably not, but thanks for assuming. Outside of reddit I'm part of an indie group that makes games aimed at high school and college age women, so I'm a figure in the fandom so to speak so it makes it easy and visible for me to call out these developing kiddos when their sjw bullshit goes too far. I absolutely call it out whenever I see it, especially because I'm in a position to have my voice be heard and listened to.

I do the same for all my friends, and even at work. I'm part of the health and safety committee that sort of feeds ideas to HR, and when they were reworking maternity leave, I helped pushed for equal paternity leave because why the fuck wouldn't it be equal? I also used to work for a law firm that specialized in family law for men, since many courts can be stacked against them. I left because one of the partners was an insufferable entitled bitch outside of interacting with clients, but I still keep in mind seeing that side of court cases.

All of this is in addition to calling out fucktard men who stalk, harass and try to assault my women friends and yell at incels and guys who think women as a whole should stfu and be subservient to them. I love calling out fucksticks on both sides, because why tolerate anyone treating anyone else as subhuman?

I used to be subscribed to MRA years ago before it became a woman-hating cesspool, but I still believe in men and women having equal rights, and there being changes that need to happen for that to be true on both sides. How's that for "hypocrite"?

[–]Santaball 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]karygurl 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Man, I hope you didn't pull something looking at over seven years of commenting history, I know that's a lot to get through. Human rights and gaming are "leftist drivel" too, well that says something about you.

I don't care if men get upset when women wrong them, it happens all the time unfortunately. I care when men scream "all feminists are cunts." I also care when people shout "all conservatives are nazis" or "all immigrants are illegals" or "all men are pigs" or whatever else you want to stereotype and wrongly lump people together in. Guess I'll have to head into the next committee meeting and tell them, "Well, this person on the internet I was arguing with said that equal rights are leftist drivel, so you can cancel that investigation into paternity leave. Let's just have women have it all and keep the status quo."

Editing to add: Okay, okay, I'm being snarky and unhelpful, but after expressing how I do see the inequality for both genders and how I try to help not just bitching online but also irl, getting a response with "well you're a leftist I see" and "Well when women step on our feelings, what did you think was gonna happen?" is just sad.

[–]Santaball 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]karygurl 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel you, honestly, though I know it also greatly depends on the state. I had to send text screenshots of a friend of a friend being horribly verbally abusive and cheating on her husband to his attorney because she was a horrible fucking human being and did not deserve custody of their kids and was going to get it. Don't know how that turned out but it was gross and I hope she got everything thrown back in her face. But I also have to help out another friend of mine because her boyfriend that she had a baby with got hooked on drugs, ran off to another state for a couple years with no contact, and now he's back harassing her and her son, blowing up her phone every time she changes her number, stalks her at work and her son at school, and he refuses to pay child support and the court in that state is apparently toothless and even refuses to issue a restraining order for her because he's the father. It's all anecdotal of course, but shit's gross all over and not just for women, I know that.

I hope at some point the screeching psychopath self-proclaimed "feminists" that I enjoy shitting on will move on to some other imagined slight, and actual feminists who go by the actual definition of feminism and promote equality will become the obvious visible norm and get shit done for men and women. Hard to see it as the future in this political climate where everything is yelling, but I can hope, right?

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[–]ihatespunk 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

No no, angry people (of both genders) who struggle with critical thinking and introspection appropriate the term for their own agenda. Feminism has a definition and it's about equality. It's a type of egalitarianism that seeks to highlight disparities based on gender. The same way a square is a type of rectangle but a rectangle isnt necessarily a square.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

Definition of feminism

1: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/egalitarianism

Definition of egalitarianism

1: a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs

2: a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

[–]azazelcrowley 19 points20 points21 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+]ihatespunk -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]azazelcrowley 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

The movement is defined by its actions and impacts, not the assertions of its fringe members.

Real Feminism is feminist as an ideology imposed on society, not Imaginary Feminism that exists solely inside the head of some its members.

Making it more difficult for people who feminism has oppressed and violated the human rights of to criticize their oppressors isn't being a good ally. You're whining that not all Imperialists are bad people who want to abuse colonials and that it means "spreading civilization" and "massacres aren't civilized" and demanding we respect your feelings instead of cut the shit and say "Imperialism is bad." and define it around the impact it had on its victims and how it was practiced in reality rather than the arrogant PR claims of its supporters. because of the lived experiences of those who have suffered under it.

You're stood up in an all india congress meeting waffling about a theoretical imperial federation that would treat indians better.

Sorry, but no, we're done with you and your ideology, we're not interested in reforming it. We're not interested in mens issues being under the control of the feminist movement and its biased chauvinistic crap anymore. Get out of Ireland, I don't care how much you scream and shout about how it's part of the "British isles.". You have lost your claim to us because we demand autonomy and that's that.

Feminism is not the movement for both genders because men don't want it to be. It's that fucking simple, and the continued refusal of feminists to recognize their failure here is just arrogance and paternalistic crap.

[–]ihatespunk 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]azazelcrowley19 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The duluth model would be a good example. Prior to feminisms involvement, we did not jail victims of domestic abuse more often than their accuser on the basis of their gender.

You've also got the collapse in mens participation in teaching partially as a result of the demonization campaign conducted which framed men as the borderline sole perpetrators of sex crimes despite it being far closer to equal perpetration than they wanted to admit, something still continuing, and the collapse of male role models and the effect this has on children, especially boys.

Both of those resulted from these behaviors from feminists: http://menaregood.com/wordpress/straus-exposes-the-academic-veils-placed-on-domestic-violence-research/

Especially;

Avoid Obtaining Data Inconsistent With the Patriarchal Dominance Theory.

(I.E, avoid finding anything out that makes their claims about women being oppressed less strong and hide evidence contrary to it, their theories on sexism are not strong enough to hold up to reality without manipulating the evidence.)

You've got custody bias too, which NOW and other feminist organizations actively pushed for in the past on the basis men were violent and so on, which they are now beginning to turn against because they realized it caused the wage gap. (Not out of sincere empathy for men.)

These aren't the only examples or issues. But how about this one;

Representation in government.

Before you say anything, remember this;

There are no billionaires in the senate. You know that harvard study showing America is an oligarchy and in practical terms only the interests of lobbyists are represented?

There are thousands of womens organizations that lobby specifically for womens interests, and almost none for men. In fact, when men try to set them up, feminists shut them down. This is in stark contrast to the past.

I think that dynamic can be blamed for the lack of progress on mens issues, including their legal issues, and the worsening condition of men in many countries. The suppression of the mens rights movement while claiming feminism is the movement for both, despite the lack of focus and actual effort on their part, makes the continuing situation their responsibility.

In the UK, feminist organizations successfully lobbied for updates to the sexual offences act numerous times in the past two decades, while claiming to represent equality and both genders. They failed to demand the inclusion of female rapists in the definition of rape, despite mens groups who they frequently demonized as sexist urging them to do so, most recently in 2007. Their claim to sole legitimacy is the problem there, and an example of how being forced to have representatives on an issue who do not actually give a fuck about you or your problems is a disadvantage men face that women don't. Women are privileged here as a result of feminism.

Adding insult to injury, feminist organizations in the UK utilize stats that portray rape as a male perpetrated based on criminal convictions, despite themselves actively demanding on no less than three occasions a definition that excluded female rapists.

Feminist Mary Koss likewise testified to the US that men cannot be raped and convinced the house to agree with her argument while they were drafting legislation. In the US, some feminists rectified this, notably without acknowledging the cause of the problem or perhaps suggesting compensation for the millions of men raped in the meanwhile by, for instance, demanding NOW fork over some cash for their blatant shilling for human rights violations. (The US aren't the good guys for letting the japanese-americans out of prison camps, sorry to break it to you, feminism doesn't get credit for fixing this, especially as they didn't acknowledge what they did, and didn't offer any form of apology or restittuion.)

The feminist framing of "representation" in government is a literally superficial one that ignores how government actually functions.

I think that's a pretty damning indication of female privilege.

Further, you're ignoring that pre-existing conditions can be retained by a new regime. The Tudors oppressed the serfs, even though they didn't institute serfdom, because they worked to keep those dynamics in place.

The boys crisis in education has been fostered under feminism too, in part because of the collapse in mens participation, and in part because the chauvinism of women teachers has been actively protected from criticism by feminist narratives and activism and their framing of mens issues as caused by mens mentalities and masculinity while denying women perpetrate institutional discrimination against them. Women teachers discriminate against boys:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/16/female-teachers-give-male_n_1281236.html

This is also tied directly to the male suicide rate. Studies showed educational failure was a major factor in suicide. In addition to that, this relates to women being the majority of university students, and from there, their social mobility and so on. Feminists are seeking to worsen the gap in universities by framing the equality discussion in education around STEM, the only fields with more men than women, because of their gynocentrist view.

There's plenty of issues that feminism has fostered and worsened. In the UK for example, the disparity between men and women in prison has been worsened by feminism, directly contradicting your point here, as feminists have actively pushed for women (and only women) to not be imprisoned for anything less than violent crime.

Further, there is the fact that feminists (and pretty much only feminists) are responsible for pushing the notion that sexism against men is impossible, or doesn't exist, alongside downplaying the extent of mens issues and misandry, given their current monopoly on legitimacy on this subject which they actively fight to maintain. This likewise impacts efforts to resolve issues and is abusive in nature.

How about due process violations?

Courts have ruled that the feminist kangaroo courts on university campuses routinely violated due process rights of accused male students. In the UK, this even encroached on the justice system and caused lack of disclosure of evidence for males accused of rape, recently leading to a major scandal.

Both of those human rights abuses occurred as a direct result of feminist campaigning and demands. It is not up for debate, it is the ruling of courts. (Interesting that the feminist conception of what sexism is, when they shouted down everyone who opposed their demands here as sexist, would be "Not letting us commit human rights abuses.", this is because they utilize a biased and gynocentric worldview and understanding of how sexism works. They confuse equality for female supremacy and dehumanization of men. This example is one instance where it has been undeniably proven that is the case.)

Is the right to a fair trial female privilege? Seems like a big one. If we're playing around with dates, it seems feminists have pushed sufficient discrimination against men to take them back to around the 1215 in terms of how they are treated on at least this issue.

If you need evidence that this is not out of some authoritarian tendency and general opposition to due process but is specifically sourced in their contempt for men and their human rights, here you go:

One: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Two: https://i.redd.it/0yy151y14ah11.png

These aren't the only examples.

[–]azazelcrowley13 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Version two, a shorter one:

The duluth model is the most popular form of DV intervention program in the united states and is instituted by feminists, it's a more coded successor to the notion that women who initiate violence against men in relationships are definition defending themselves because he's complicit in a patriarchy that attacked them first, and we're currently dealing with this generation of feminists engaged in statistical manipulation to downplay the issue, despite the result of all their efforts being that male victims are more likely to be jailed for seeking help than the perpetrator.

How many generations of feminists defending the abuse of men through their actions does it take for it to be become a hate movement?

In the UK, the sexual offences act has been updated three times in the past two decades at the demands of feminist lobbyists, to expand the definition of various sexual offences, and they recently managed to push for an entirely new law to be passed that treats upskirting as an offence. At no point have feminist lobbyists demanded the definition be changed to include female rapists, and in fact they routinely (And let's face it, deliberately) use statistics based on that definition to talk about proportions of victims being wildly disproportionate. I say it's deliberate because the same people who do this pretend they support male rape victims despite using stats that report 0% women perpetrators, but they only talk about the victim rates and THEN move onto "So men need to stop raping so much." without discussing the perpetration rates, leaving hetero-normative bias to imply all the women were raped by men. In the US, Mary Koss (feminist) lobbied the US government to exclude male rape victims, and many of their organizations still use lopsided definitions.

Both of these things have the effect of demonizing and villying men, something feminism has done for decades. When they started this, the largest feminist organization in the world, NOW, also demanded women be given preferential custody when they request it on the grounds men were violent to their families more than women (A lie, women commit most domestic violence when you account for their abuse of the elderly, but this was deliberately dropped from the narrative to gerrymander the results, and even then they still had to lie. Abuse of the elderly being dropped by feminists from the definition before going about their blood libel is important because the narrative was that even viewing violence against other family members was a danger to a child.) and they lobbied on that basis to exclude fathers and provide resources to mothers as well as pushed the notion that a single mother is just as capable as a couple onto society and engaged in a propaganda war to portray fathers as detrimental or superficial to the family.

These events led to Warren Farrell beginning to question the movement, for which he was demonized and cast out of its organizations. This sparked the schism that led to the mens rights movement.

Most modern feminists only give a shit about that because they realize they shot themselves in the foot with the wage gap, but even there they routinely misframe the issue and imply it's due to pay discrimination against women.

On the issue of rape and sexual assault, feminist efforts have resulted in the collapse of due process in the united kingdom, and violation of due process in the US on university campuses, (Not up for debate this one, courts have ruled as much.) because they have successfully demonized and dehumanized their outgroup (men) that people don't care about the potential for their suffering and don't seek to mitigate it. They've been doing this since at least the Lacrosse case, it is not an aberration, it is the norm for feminism to oppose mens human rights on these topics and to vilify them.

These aren't the only issues.

[–]ihatespunk5 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]genkernels3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Who is feminism oppressing and how? I keep asking this and no one ever answers

How many times did you actually ask this?

Married Women Property Act (now almost completely repealed)
Tender Years Doctrine
Title IX kangaroo courts.
Allison Saunders and rape prosecutions in the UK.
The NOW (largest feminist organization in the US) continues to oppose egalitarian child support. Child support is the only debt that can get one sent to prison in the US thanks to feminist advocacy.
The NOW (largest feminist organization in the US) continues to oppose popular alimony reform. Without large-scale feminist advocacy, divorce would not be so massively discriminatory.
Anti-male domestic violence advocacy, including VAWA and associated institutions.

And much more. It is so bad that when you look at the reference book of men's issues (link also on sidebar), some of the men's issues listed are solely caused by feminism at this point (3.3, 3.2, 4.6, 4.3, sections of 3.1, and arguably 4.1).

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What about patriarchy theory do you take issue with?

Seriously? You're asking that here? While I grant it started development in academia as simply a way to describe hierarchies on which societies adapted to ensure certainty of paternity for fathers and to establish property ownership (of course, without ever examining what kind of nightmare life would be like without them) but what it has become in social discourse is nothing but a condemnation of all men and boys for oppressing and curtailing all women and girls everywhere throughout history for our own nefarious ends.

Everytime one of you dictionary peddlers shows up at our door we have to go through the same routine. Look, you see the world the way you do. We can't fix that for you. We point out again and again ad nauseum that whatever you personally may think about feminism as a theory, the OBJECTIVE REALITY is that it is global, it is in education, academia, government, the law, the media, social institutions and, yes, the internet, and it is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY whose sole purpose is NOT equality. It does, and has, used patriarchy theory not as an explanation of anything, but as a weapon to 'smash the patriarchy'... And civilisation right along with it. It's a death cult. A hate movement. It lies to its adherents. It lies to the world. It vilifies and demonises innocent men and little boys. It hates. Maybe you don't, but it does.

Read the other posts here quoting Karen Straughan about you. Then throw your dictionary away and look around you. See (maybe for the first time) that there are men and boys being abused, neglected, drugged, imprisoned, tortured and thrown away every day, even in the West. Men and boys of ALL races, backgrounds, religions and levels of ability. The only ones consistently doing well are wealthy, socially powerful and DO WHAT FEMINISTS TELL THEM TO DO. Absent that, all of them are just waiting at the slaughterhouse door. I say 'them' and don't include myself because my turn already came. I'm thrown away. I'm staying away. I'm over here on the garbage pile this gynocentric society put me on, watching as you all rip each others throats out.

You all deserve each other...

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NOW opposing default shared custody which would do wonders for men being alienated from their families, for starters.

Theres a plethora of feminist organizations pushing for gender quotas in exec boardrooms, which would push qualified men out of boardrooms to fill positions with token women. Before I get blasted for that, I'm all for women in boardrooms....if they want to be there and they are every bit as qualified as their male counterparts. If they are pushed into there so a company avoids a fine, then they are taking the spot from a more deserving candidate and they'll have less respect since their position wasn't earned.

Feminists are pushing for more women in STEM and giving only women certain opportunities, thus pushing men out of college.

The college rape hysteria propagated by feminists have lead to the horrific kangaroo courts that have negatively impacted men in college.

When the red pill documentary was coming out, it was feminists who marched and protested against showing it. When MRAs show up for talks, feminists and antifa show up to call them misogynists and nazis.

Theres a lot of evidence feminists oppose mens rights. Only a very few and very quiet number of feminists seem to care about mens rights.

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https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/prision-injustice-feminism/

It’s a Gender Issue

Feminism began by focusing on gender justice, and the third truth to ground in is the fact that fighting prison injustice is very much a matter of fighting for gender justice.

Since 1985, the number of women incarcerated has increased at nearly double the rate of men.

Through an intersectional lens, we see rates increasing even more at the intersections of identities.

Black women, as the fastest-growing prison population, are three times more likely than white women to be incarcerated, and Latina women are 69% more likely.

One in five transgender women has been incarcerated at some point in her life, with an even higher rate, at 47%, for Black transgender people.

Poor women are criminalized simply for the fact of being poor, and for many of the survival tactics low-income people use to survive.

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the idea that sex is always good for a dude, even when it's actually rape of a boy, is a result of patriarchy.

Really? Because that's been a feminist argument for quite some time.

Mary Koss used that one as one of her reasons for why she redefined rape so that it didn't apply to men. Which has influenced large swatches of rape research. In fact it is exactly the patriarchy that most feminists use to argue for why men cannot be raped. Because men have power in a patriarchial society, so women cannot actually rape them because rape is about power (to a feminist).

Oh, and if they do acknowledge a man being raped, it is still misogyny as the man is being "feminized". Which means it's really about hating women.

So if it horrifies you then look in a mirror, because that's the face of someone who supports the kind of ideology that would spread those ideas.

In all seriousness, have you ever actually looked at a single thing that feminism says, does, or advocates for in reality?

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I'm gonna thank you for your words since no one else has here and you've had to respond to people reacting and thinking like the extremist femenists they hate.

As a father of both boys and girls as well as a husband to a lovely woman, the rights of both men and women are important to me. Both sexes have things to fight for and often those things cross over into mutual territory.

I'd advocate being careful of the terminology you use in a men's rights subreddit as there are some very angry people about. In the same way I'd expect you to ask me to veer away from certain phrases if i went into a woman's rights forum as a man.

"A feminist world" for me would be one. As it hints, to the angry people, of a world where women's rights are the priority. Instead of, like i think you intended, where women's rights take equal footing with men's rights and they're both being addressed.

[–]RacelessSexlessName 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]tenchineuro 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm gonna thank you for your words since no one else has here and you've had to respond to people reacting and thinking like the extremist femenists they hate.

So for how long have you been a feminist?

I'd advocate being careful of the terminology you use in a men's rights subreddit as there are some very angry people about. In the same way I'd expect you to ask me to veer away from certain phrases if i went into a woman's rights forum as a man.

There's always r\feminism down the hall to the left.

"A feminist world" for me would be one. As it hints, to the angry people, of a world where women's rights are the priority. Instead of, like i think you intended, where women's rights take equal footing with men's rights and they're both being addressed.

Is that what you claim is happening today, that men and women's rights have equal priority and both are being addressed?

[–]tenchineuro 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wrote this response but the post was deleted, so I'll post my response anyway. I think the response was to this post.

I would go ahead and call supporters for equality of both genders

But what exactly does this mean? A big feminist issue is the so-called wage gap, where men earn more than women on average, and they want the overall earnings of women to match the overall earnings of men. Since 'equality' by itself says nothing whatsoever about anything, this is indeed seeking a form of equality. Do you support it? Do you call this egalitarian?

Feminism itself implies a higher importance on women’s issues if you’re tying it to the word “equality”.

Feminism ties itself to the word 'equality'.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with a movement focused solely on women’s rights and social justice,

So sexism is OK, as long as it's pro-female. And social justice as practiced today is pure anti-male hate, but that's OK too.

but if your focus is equality for all, that is egalitarianism.

The feminist focus is on women, period, feminism does not even see men as people.

[–]Sharrow746 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The sidebar of this very subreddit states that all opinions are welcome and advocates free speech.

Femenists are welcome as long as they do not be discourteous which she was not in her original comment.

Since when have i been a femenist? Never, but even if i had been that shouldn't be an issue in this sub. This is men's rights and not anti women or femenism.

Feminism is not inherently a problem in the same way that religion is not an issue, until such time as extremists get hold of it. I would expect r/atheism to be welcoming of a Christian posting their view of it wasn't inflammatory and was contributing to the discussion. I have witnessed r/atheism doing such on many occasions, as i have this sub to women and femenists.

I don't think it's fair to act bigoted and with anger towards someone in the exact same manner that femenists do towards men and then call them out in it. It's hypocrisy.

As for my own views on femenism and men's rights, i believe that both women and men are getting a raw deal on various aspects. I hope to have a world where those issues they face get equal respect and are tackled equally. For the past 25 years in my country at least political correctness mixed with anti racism, anti sexism had created a weird shift in problems faced by everyone. There's over reaction and compensation as a result and it's going to take at least another decade or 2 to get anywhere at this rate.

Acting like Extreme femenists or extreme religious people and spewing anger and hate towards them, even when they try and extend a hand towards our side helps nobody and only aggravates the problem.

I didn't sign up for r/mensrights to hate on other people, i came here to discuss issues i face and that my son's will face and to discuss ways to address them that don't override other people's rights.

[–]tenchineuro 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The sidebar of this very subreddit states that all opinions are welcome and advocates free speech.

Femenists are welcome as long as they do not be discourteous which she was not in her original comment.

And you posted this because of what?

Since when have i been a femenist? Never, but even if i had been that shouldn't be an issue in this sub. This is men's rights and not anti women or femenism.

It's just that you seemed to be using feminist rhetoric.

I don't think it's fair to act bigoted and with anger towards someone in the exact same manner that femenists do towards men and then call them out in it. It's hypocrisy.

See what I mean?

For the past 25 years in my country at least political correctness mixed with anti racism, anti sexism had created a weird shift in problems faced by everyone.

Is that anti-racism or anti-white? Is that anti-sexism or anti-male? That's the first chapter in the SJW handbook.

Acting like Extreme femenists or extreme religious people and spewing anger and hate towards them, even when they try and extend a hand towards our side helps nobody and only aggravates the problem.

Feel free to explain this to somebody who does so then.

I didn't sign up for r/mensrights to hate on other people, i came here to discuss issues i face and that my son's will face and to discuss ways to address them that don't override other people's rights.

Yeah, there are many in that boat, but feminism is not on your son's side.

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[–]tenchineuro1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

AVFM is hardly a good example of a MRA website, and ROK is not MRA.

I have read a few linked articles from these, but otherwise do not frequent them.

A “subreddit” of the user-generated news site Reddit, this forum describes itself as a “place for people who feel that men are currently being disadvantaged by society.” While it presents itself as a home for men seeking equality, it is notable for the anger it shows toward any program designed to help women.

That is programs that help only women, regardless of who needs help the most. Is there any possibility that these affect men somehow?

It also trafficks in various conspiracy theories. “Kloo2yoo,” identified as a site moderator, writes that there is “undeniable proof” of an international feminist conspiracy involving the United Nations, the Obama Administration and others, aimed at demonizing men.

This is news to me, but Obama did repeat Koss's 1 in 5 women will be raped figure in an official speech and there is a post right now about how poorly Obamacare covers men. Obama has not been a great help to the men who elected him.

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You're saying as if it's impossible for two different movements to somehow have a common cause on a certain level?

Don't generalize, the issue here is feminism and men. Feminism is in fact anti-male, feminism and men share no common ground.

You are creating an US vs THEM mentality.

No, that's on feminism, they did this generations ago. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Yes, there are individuals who represent the worst of each ideal. I agree, some will shut you down instead of having a conversation.

Have you ever tried to have a conversation with a feminist?

But you shouldn't lump everyone else in the same bucket as these extreme individuals.

They jumped into the same 'feminist' bucket voluntarily. And they remain there voluntarily.

I'm simply saying, that men, women, and people of all background can fight towards the common cause of equality.

Unless and until you define what you mean by 'equality', this sentence has no meaning.

You can be both a feminist and a men's rights activist. ** They are not mutually exclusive. **

You are welcome to your very extreme view, but pardon me if I don't share it.

Often I see folks perpetuate the same stereotypes that they vow to extinguish, which is simply funny.

Stereotype? How about decades of observation and discussion. You are amusing, but don't quit your day job.

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[–]Nhabls 8 years ago* [recovered] (53 children) | Copy Link

That's because that person isn't a feminist.

This all comes from an extreme misconception of what the term means to begin with all over the place. And no this is not "mainstream feminism". The ideology isn't defined by randoms on tumblr. Nor on any other social media, if you want to see the current trends in an ideology, don't be lazy and read the literature or at the very least get your information from someone who knows what the fuck it is they're talking about.

Feminism is about breaking conceptions about gender (because yes, it considers gender roles as a social construct), at it's core it's about fighting concepts like pink = girl, blue = man. It isn't about claiming women are better than men or demonizing the opposite gender.

When they talk about the patriarchy, whether you agree with it or not, they consider it hurtful for BOTH women AND men. In the sense that it forces men to feel bad about expressing emotions, like crying, and creates paranoia about displaying "feminine" characteristics. This is what feminism opposes.

You can either realize this and understand that most people aren't out to get you or you can keep getting mad at one off randoms on social media. Up to you i guess.

[–]tenchineuro 19 points20 points21 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That's because that person isn't a feminist.

That's because that person is a feminist.

This all comes from an extreme misconception of what the term means to begin with all over the place.

No one cares about the dictionary, what feminist really do, say, and advocate for define what feminism is.

It isn't about claiming women are better than men or demonizing the opposite gender.

Tell that to the feminists who wrote the Duluth model, I'm sure they'll get a laugh.

When they talk about the patriarchy, whether you agree with it or not, they consider it hurtful for BOTH women AND men.

But we don't live in a patriarchy.

You can either realize this and understand that most people aren't out to get you or you can keep getting mad at one off randoms on social media. Up to you i guess.

Where do you get your talking points? You need a more updated list.

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[–]BrettMKen3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

we do not see men’s violence against women as stemming from individual pathology, but rather from a socially reinforced sense of entitlement

This is wrong on so many levels. Men are villified because of rhetoric like this. An individuals actions are an individuals responsibility. If a man commits a sex crime he is charged as an individual, but the group is blamed. If a woman commits a sex crime she as charged as an individual and it is never referred to as a group problem. How about you stop making individuals actions out to be a group problem. Absolutely call people out for being shitty, but don't blame the group they naturally (as in: don't have a say in the matter) belong to. It's the same as racism except for gender.

And if we want to talk about entitlement, we can bring up parents rights, or reproductive rights, or we can bring up alimoney. Most men don't have a sense of entitlement, they work hard for their place in society just like everyone else. Of course there is a 1 percent who do, but every group has a 1 percent who fuck things up for all the hard working people fighting against ingrained stereotypes.

[–]Nhabls1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Absolutely call people out for being shitty, but don't blame the group they naturally (as in: don't have a say in the matter) belong to

This not what's being said. You people have some serious issue with reading comprehension.

What is being said is the exact opposite.

You have 1 singular fact:

Men commit disproportionately comit more violence than women, it is the single greatest predictor world wide for violence. End of story.

What feminist theory tells you, on the other hand, is not that men are more prone to violence because they are men but because of cultural norms that instigate the stereotypes of a masculinity as being strong and tough, and so forth.

This is not bigotry it's the direct opposite. You mention racism, well the correct comparison to that would be saying that blacks in the US are more prone to crime not because they are black (which would be the bigoted view) but because of long reigning systemic and institutional discrimination that leaves them in a subpar socio economic standing.

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