If you stay in the friend zone hoping for action, it’s on you.

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I'm not sure if it was all in my head but the dates went smoother,

I don't know if only correlated but I found they play less games during texting, none of this wait time to text back.

I felt more confident, don't know why. Plus each guy I asked out, I have stayed friendly with all of them, most in the we'd say hello, say happy birthday on Facebook. Reach out for the big moments like recently an ex lost his mother so I send my condolences.

My other half had never been payed for on a first date, so I guess there's also some level of appreciation that carried through.

I think alot of men would like to be pursued romantically, ofcourse some will have some outdated views and only view the woman as sex just because they asked, but the majority (imo) will jump at the chance in an honest way. Atleast it has been from my experience

Edit - I took a sleeping tablet an hour ago and have been given my first thc vape so sorry if that was illegible to read I'm dyslexic

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Of all times a man asks out a woman, a vastly disproportionate number of them are from a man trying to play the field or the numbers game. A man who is looking to invest in a partner will ask far fewer women by comparison.

This means the pool of all asks is disproportionately filled by low investment asks compared to the population. Your odds of asking a random man and finding someone higher investment are significantly better.

Essentially this would be a bet on your ability to discern low investment asks from high investment ones versus your odds just asking randomly and bumping into a low-investment man.

To some extent you'll necessarily find people less interested/motivated at the start, but allegedly that isn't what is being discussed here.

If you are cynical about men and have a high opinion of your ability to judge their intentions based on asks, then yeah, you probably think it is rational to not ask men out.

If you are not particularly cynical and think you aren't that good at discerning their intentions from their asks, you probably should be asking men out. I would say most women really should be in this camp.

Of course, I think the reality is that explicitly showing interest and opening yourself to rejection has high personal and potential social costs, which women don't put up with because they are relatively in demand and thus aren't forced into that position.

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[–]Acrobatic_Computer 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

It isn't about the pool of men, it is about the pool of asks relative to the pool of men.

A man looking only for a hookup will be less discerning in who he asks and generally needs to sift through more women, whereas a man looking for a relationship will generally be more discerning.

If there are 10 men, 5 of whom just want to hook up, and 5 of whom are looking for something more long term, but the 5 looking for hookups each make 20 asks, while the 5 looking for something long term only make 10 asks, then your odds of running into a random man looking for a hookup is 50%, but a randomly selected ask comes from a man looking for a hookup 66.66% of the time.

By picking from the pool of asks you bias yourself towards guys who are investing the least amount in asks as a whole and asking the most women.

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But a point I do harp on about is that men receive contradictory advice and it can be very difficult to figure out what the hell we're supposed to do.

That's because few if any of the people giving the advice are genuinely interested in or concerned for men's well-being and success. Most of the advice is an underhanded way to try to make men less annoying to women.

Take the advice you mentioned above; if men are taught to be chill and slow paced and emotionally engaged with women before trying to get laid or get in a relationship, who is really benefitting here? It's obvious that this arrangement is mostly beneficial to the woman's comfort and convenience, regardless if the man actually ends up getting what he wants or not.

Pretty much everything you see regarding dating is about how to guarantee a woman's happiness. If the man actually ends up happy too, that's purely incidental.

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Women don't befriend dudes and pretend for months years that their intentions are platonic.

Not accurate, I had 2 of them. The first one I was interested in but I was both to blue pill and got unlucky so it never went anywhere.

Friend of mine had a similar experience, he got into game because the girl disappeared and popped up later married to someone. After he become a successful player for a while he looked back and realized that in girl terms she clearly liked him but he was to bluepilled to make a move.

It's girls standard operating procedure. They don't tell you they think you're attractive (unless you're maybe uber chad or something but that's rare) they just hang around under an expectation that if you're interested you'll make a move.

Women yes are passive but they aren't lurking around Ike vultures typically waiting for your relationship to fail with your gf

Oh man, get a girlfriend, then tell her there's a new girl at work who wants to hang out, and see if she reacts with an expectation that this new girl is just hanging out with you hoping your current relationship falls apart.

Both these things are patterns of behavior women engage in all the time.

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[–]DisplacedBitzerRed Pill Man [score hidden] 3 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Yea, I asked her out a while back, before the cuddling and physical contact, she initially said yes, but then backtracked, said she didn't really have the 'time to give you proper attention' was the reason, too busy etc. I just took it as a polite way to say not interested in me. In Uni, same major, same progression level so far. We get along rather well, so obviously friends and I don't have a lot to spare, not the most social guy. Had some conversations where I specifically asked if she liked me due to further mixed signals after I asked her out, and she said as a friend yeah. She avoided me for a week cause she didn't like that we were getting too close. So matter settled right? Nope.

More recently she has turned up the affection level to a stupid degree. She was more like a normal friend previously with taunting each other and joking, no physical intimacy. Her behavior now is complimenting me(eyes, hair, physique), cuddling(for hours, playful slaps), wanting to hang out more(worked on finals together every single day of the week, right next to eachother for 5 hours plus each day), now also wants to hang out more on break. Gave me a back massage unprompted, Is planning on crashing my birthday with gifts..., requires hugs from me... insisted on being invited to my house... Literally being downright nicer even about my bad traits... Like, these are the classic signals of interest right? I could see how any other dude would think, 'oh she must be interested' as friends, even despite already getting rejected. I'm a tad paranoid at the shift in attitude honestly.

[–]Just-a-Pea 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Those are things we do with friends of our own gender too. If a friend thinks they have a bad trait I’ll try to be supportive and reassuring, sometimes I do feel like giving a massage regardless of their gender identity. I like hugs, I hug all my friends (except one who does not like physical contact), they are different type of hugs and different type of massages than I’d give my husband. She thinks you are happy being best friends, those are things we do with besties of any gender.

Here is the thing, if you don’t want to be just friends, you can say so and move on, here is how:

hey friend, I’m lying to myself when I think I like being friends. I don’t, I like you and I know you aren’t into me. You did nothing wrong, it just took me a minute to realize that I am not okay with being friends, so I am going to take some distance until I move on, we can be friendly acquaintances and classmates for now. Wish me luck!

If she insists on being friends say NO, you are not okay being just friends and if she suddenly wants to date (because she doesn’t wanna lose you) I’d also say no, you shouldn’t be with someone who isn’t into you, you deserve someone who is enthusiastically interested in the same kind of relationship as you. Be it friendship, sexual, romantic, or all the thousand other types of relationships you can come up with. If she was into you she could have easily asked you out too, she knew how after you had asked her a few times. So she honestly thinks you are her BFF, and she thinks you want to be BFFs too because you are still there after she rejected dating.

If you don’t want a back massage from a friend you can say NO, if you don’t want her to come to your house and she insists explain to her that she is being pushy and that NO means NO. It is healthy to have boundaries and to communicate them chill without getting upset. Symmetric relationships are worth the effort of learning to say NO when the relationship isn’t symmetric.

[–]DisplacedBitzerRed Pill Man [score hidden] 3 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I've never experienced that stuff with other dudes at all, especially all at once, combined, and suddenly, so maybe that's influencing how I think about it. I suppose that might be a gender difference? I have noticed women tend to have closer friendships.

I'm cool being friends legitimately. I suppose I am uncomfortable with the whole 'bff' treatment as you call it. I would much prefer going back to being, yknow, ordinary friends? As I originally intended I suppose. I just don't think her behavior makes sense though considering her upbringing(traditional) and beliefs regarding if men and women can be close friends. The shift in treatment is jarring. It makes me uncomfortable in a sense, so I should take your advice and set some boundaries I suppose, maybe have a proper conversation about it.

Thanks for your advice, I appreciate your comments. You have any rather insightful questions I could maybe ask?

[–]Just-a-Pea -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean with questions? This is about YOUR boundaries. You can have a chill talk about it or you can just say that paragraph I drafted for you. I would really advice to not date her even if she now changes her mind. That will not be a healthy relationship and will delay your chances of finding someone who wants you as much as you want them.

Considering how young you both are and that she has a traditional upbringing I wouldn’t be surprised if she is indeed more cozy with you because your attention helps with her insecurities. But that is just speculation, and even if that was the case. Even if she was “leading you on” -> It is not her fault that you are hurt when she doesn’t reciprocate your feelings, and if you haven’t said no to cuddling it is not her fault for cuddling. It is your responsibility to set your own boundaries and her responsibility to set hers.

In life you will meet people who won’t respect your boundaries, both men and women and everyone in between. Get away from people who won’t respect your boundaries and be respectful of other people’s boundaries. Best of luck!

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Honestly in most cases even if the girl has dropped romantic hints, showed interest etc but still didn’t pick you and/or ended up actually dating somebody else, she’s not going to change her mind and sticking around in hopes she will is a waste of time and kind of dishonest. You were just an option and you weren’t the best one. That’s it.

I like to cut contact immediately personally, it’s quite harsh but if I come in contact with romantic intent, if this is not the outcome then it doesn’t align with my goals and I’d rather move on.

Same with girls one’s been friends with for years. If you develop romantic interest, confessing it will just blow up the friendship and you will gain nothing + lose your friend anyways.

If she was attracted to you it wouldn’t have been a friendship from the get go, but a romantic interest. Only exception would be someone who’s had a huge glow up or lifestyle change but even then… not likely.

The friendzone is unescapable but there’s plenty of girls.

[–]Jim97 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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You know you don’t necessarily need to fuck everyone you find attractive, sometimes the initial attractiveness plus personality and how they treat you once you know them can go a long way, and that can definitely progress into a romantic situation, even if you’ve known each other a while. Hell I had no romantic inclinations towards my bf for a year, then we coincidentally ended up being the last ones around after a movie night and hit it off so well I was like hey how have I not noticed him yet??!!?? (was busy chasing other tail that was around irl since he doesn’t live too close to me), but I realized that he had a good personality, and was actually a lot more handsome than I realized (all of his posted pictures were years old which I think contributed). It’s definitely possible to transition from friends to a relationship, but if its about endlessly pining after someone, that ain’t it. He shot his shot subtlety a few months before we got together and when it was unreciprocated, he accepted that and wasn’t chasing after me, he just stayed friends with me and there was no awkwardness. If he had continually annoyed me, all that would’ve ever happened, I wouldn’t have stuck around movie night - if he was a prick we would’ve missed our whole relationship

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I was there myself I loved her, she kept me around because she knows that I love her and I won't hurt her.

How did she keep you? You couldn't leave the friendship? You remained in it, even though it hurt you. Been there, it's a shitty feeling, but you weren't kept, you remained there even though it hurt you. You weren't taking care of yourself.

This is what OP means when they said people put themselves in the friendzone. You were friends, you wanted more, she didn't. Of course, she would like to remain friends, that's what you were in the first place. Her wanting to remain friends is no more selfish than you wanting to date her. A friendship requires both parties to want to be in it, you choose whether to participate. If remaining friends doesn't work for you, you should take yourself out of that situation, instead of expecting the other person to cut off contact for you.

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[–]Eastern-Action1384 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

First of all let me define friends, a friend is someone who is close to you and you will tell him all your problems and seek help from her/him. Also it's someone who you want to have fun with.

Let's say you have a guy friend you tell him all your problems, he gonna help you and give you advice. You gonna give him you time he gonna give you his. Go out with him couple of cafes, etc. A compliment here and there. Automatically the guy brain will conclude I have a chance with her. I can f*ck her. All guys thinks that. Men are weak to the beauty of women. If you think being around someone laughing and having fun but you also show him your weak side and he won't try to hit. He is gay.

Also women are also to blame they are not angels. Sometimes they like the attention and they choose to play with fire.

What I am saying is most if the time let's 99% if a man and woman are in their 60s they can be friends.

[–]meangingersnap 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eastern-Action1384 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]meangingersnap 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 37 points38 points39 points 3 years ago (111 children) | Copy Link

"Be friends with women first, we don't want cold approaches, we know that what you want is sex, and we're not interested. Be more. Be better."

"LoL yOu ThOuGhT wE'd WaNt ReLaTiOnShIpS wItH fRiEnDs?! LoSeR! YoUr FaUlT fOr NoT bEiNg UpFrOnT aNd HoNeSt!"

Bullshit. Pick a lane or don't bitch when we call you out as being disingenuous two-faced manipulating liars. Yeah, women aren't a hivemind, but you, right there, you spoke just as authoritatively as those women who appear to think differently than you.

In a world where everyone and their dog is telling us we need to listen to women, you might want to agree on which ones we're supposed to listen to, and have them tell the truth, otherwise we're going to end up just guessing (and pissing you off in the process because we got it "wrong") or inventing conspiracy theories because you can't keep shit straight but demand that we take heed regardless.

[–]Updawg145 13 points14 points15 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ReflexSaveNo Pill 14 points15 points16 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I just read through the comments in this thread, and the impression I have is that you're genuinely looking for answers in good faith, that you're trying to do what's right, and that you're being met with.. the kind of answers we would expect from this sub.

Going on a tangent here, I feel like people such as you and me are the people this sub had in mind from its creation. People who can see both sides and are interested in the conversation, and seek to understand both the changing winds of society and ourselves as actors in it. And I can respect that.

... But I think that we are actually the people this sub is the worst for. It's a place naturally attractive for those with an agenda or a chip on their shoulder. The loudest voices are largely from the fringes of either side, people who speak authoritatively in absolutes, people whose voice bends no knee to logic or reason or consistency. People who exercise nuance only to split hairs and move goal posts when you point out their contradictions, and people who just downvote and run when you've honed in on a good point they can't argue against, because their ego can't just say "actually that's a good point, I will have to rethink my position." That's not to say there aren't people like that here, but they are the lurkers and less active folk mainly, who get drowned out by the rest.

My main point here is that for people like us, looking for good insight here is like going to a flat earther's convention trying to learn about meteorology and orbital mechanics.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I thank you for interpreting my comments as I mean them - you're right, I absolutely am trying to gain understanding of the nuances and interactions that I'm missing.

People talk about it being "autistic" behaviour (I am on the spectrum, but not so profoundly effected that I'm out of my depth in living most of an adult life) to try to learn missing social skills via research online, as though it were a tabletop gaming rulebook or a solution to a technical problem.

Which is not something I necessarily disagree with, because most people just "get" how to do these things, from past experience and positive outcomes as they were growing up. A large proportion of those who are left behind will inevitably be those who are neurodivergent and may be more prone to trying to plan their lives or navigate pitfalls this way.

But, as you say, in this fast-changing world of certain interactions becoming increasingly risky, increasingly likely to result in more severe social outcomes, or at least the realistic perception that this is the case, trying to do the right thing does require staying informed, so as not to make the mistakes that men who are frequently pointed out as "regressive" or "misogynistic" or "predatory" make.

Those who experience success, particularly earlier in their lives, will simply go about doing the same things they've always done, they have no need to stay abreast of the "modern" ways of doing things, they already have a gameplan they know works. Fair enough, all power to them, men and women both.

But there is a serious lack of understanding, help, or benefit of the doubt for those who don't have those patterns established, who are trying to shed years of disconnection and isolation, who are trying to escape years of bullying and abuse because of the involuntary deficiencies largely cast upon them by the very society they're trying to fit into.

You're absolutely right about this being a bad place for people like you and I, who genuinely want to learn how to do things right, so as not to unduly upset or inconvenience people we don't want to upset or inconvenience. Why would we? If we're interested in them romantically, the very last thing we'd want to do is make them unhappy.

But, unfortunately, there's a distinct shortage of productive, safe, helpful places to discuss these things, places which can or will provide meaningful advice or convincing reinforcement that what we want is OK and that these conflicting arguments about what is or isn't acceptable are not how normal people behave.

Worse, that's how some end up in "darker" places, having been through this downward spiral of unhelpful non-advice and platitudes, to seeking "less conventional" insights, getting disillusioned by the arguments in places like this, and ending up feeling irreparably stuck in dead-ends of exclusion and social impossibility.

What I think is needed are real opportunities to gain actual social and romantic experience, positive interactions with real people, to prove that all of this, these online arguments and bitter accusatory back and forths, isn't real. I mean, it is real, clearly, and it's coming from people who exist in the real world, but it's not the experience most people have. That's what many who end up in deeply negative spaces online are lacking: positive reinforcement to show them that they are perfectly fine people, that they're not doing anything wrong, and that there are people out there who aren't like... this.

[–]ReflexSaveNo Pill 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Yep, you put it perfectly well. In both this sub - and to an extent online broadly - there is a distinct lack of charitable interpretations. People will intentionally misconstrue what you're saying for a "gotcha". But perhaps I'm giving them too much credit that it's intentional. I shouldn't attribute to malice that which is explainable by incompetence.

You seem like you're intelligent, and intelligent people often make the mistake of subconsciously assuming others have similar ability to reason. 8 weeks ago, I got into a very long and increasingly bizarre back and forth with one of the people you talked to in this thread. I don't want to call her out by name, but as the conversation went on, it became almost surreal the deftness of her mental acrobatics to twist my words in the most strained ways, the self-unawareness of her hypocrisy, and inability to understand even very simple concepts. Her vocabulary was of totally normal adult intelligence, and I found the whole conversation as fascinating as it was frustrating. I was left wondering if that account was actually the work of a very over-committed troll doing straight faced satire to make women look bad. If you're bored, you might find some entertainment in it as a case study or curiosity.

And like you alluded to, it's exactly this kind of behavior that pushes people into.. certain directions. I'm not red pill, or at least I don't think I am. But they listen and care. They validate people's real experiences, and they offer actual, actionable solutions. I don't think it's the best direction, but it's something, for an increasingly large group of people feeling invisible and worthless and blamed for their circumstances. So while I don't totally agree (especially with the Andrew Tate end of it), I can sympathize. Where else are they going to turn?

I wish I could tell you I had a good, satisfying answer to the problem. I don't. But I can tell you my approach, and based on what I'm picking up front your personality, I think it may be useful to you.

I'm not currently and haven't been for a while actively dating or looking. But I intend to soon. And I find the whole topic very depressing and hopeless. You hear about the high (and double) standards, the hypergamy, how you gotta act this way, dress that way, say these things, and no matter what you do it's wrong.

But I came upon a realization.

I don't worry about women I'm not attracted to. They aren't a concern of mine, because they aren't what I'm looking for. That part is obvious. The deeper part is that... These people with unattainable expectations, people who are materialistic or shallow, the people who wouldn't appreciate me for me... They are also unattractive to me. And the negativity you see online isn't representative of real life anyways.

I spend this time and energy worrying about not being good enough, instead of realizing that I have no interest in those kind of people to begin with. The kind of people with the values I desire are also the kind of people who value them in me.

It's very simple and obvious on the surface, and I had already considered it before, but I think there's a deeper internalization to it that had never clicked with me before. My anxiety on the topic instantly cut in half the day it did.

Of course this doesn't solve the problem of telling those people apart from the rest, but that kind of solves itself if you think about it. I don't need to impress people I'm not interested in, I don't even need for them to see me as "one of the good ones". I don't have to worry about false allegations or gossip, as long as I'm discerning about who I let in.

You might lack experience, may be on the spectrum, might not know all the perfect words to say. But that's okay. Look at all the people who find success. Half of them lack charisma and intelligence. They just know their audience.

So the tldr of this long essay is basically try not to worry about knowing everything. You have a good heart as far as I can tell, just follow it and you don't have to worry about making some horrible mistake by accident. Just the tiny gaffs of social awkwardness that we all do. And if you focus on your audience, they'll be the people who find your gaffs endearing. If someone finds you offensive or [insert worrying hypothetical here], they probably aren't someone you would find connection with anyways. If someone is so fragile that they can't cope with the horrors of someone respectfully expressing interest in them, imagine the eggshells you would walk on everyday being with them.

I don't know if I'm articulating this in a way that clicks, or if it feels I'm insulting your intelligence for how obvious it sounds, but I hope there's something useful or encouraging there.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't know if I'm articulating this in a way that clicks, or if it feels I'm insulting your intelligence for how obvious it sounds, but I hope there's something useful or encouraging there.

No, I think you're being quite reasonable and I appreciate your thoughtful approach. It's a rare treat. Thank you.

I'm not currently and haven't been for a while actively dating or looking. But I intend to soon. And I find the whole topic very depressing and hopeless. You hear about the high (and double) standards, the hypergamy, how you gotta act this way, dress that way, say these things, and no matter what you do it's wrong.

I wish you luck and would like to reinforce (for what it's worth, coming from another denizen of this cursed place) that you've probably got a solid direction to go in with what you're saying. You're right, neither you or I are trying to date the women who frustrate and denigrate us here.

If there's one thing that helps keep me sane, in terms of what the availability of women in "real life" is like, it's this - and I hope it contributes positively to your hopeful views:

There is a male friend I have, who I've mentioned before (often in the context of him being a self-admitted asshole when it came to dating and treatment of me as a friend throughout our early years together, but that's not relevant here) who has been consistently, for the time I've known him (some 20 years now), been in relationships. Many of his partners have been perfectly pleasant women, some who were mutual friends and I'd been fond of myself, some who I didn't otherwise know but found them to be generally pretty sane and personable.

He's not "Chad". I wouldn't say he and I were physically much different, looks-wise, neither of us hideous but neither of us stunners. We were for some years of a very similar build, to the point where he would (forcibly) lend me clothes when we'd go to the club, so that I didn't look completely out of place. We'd come from the same high school, where we'd both had social difficulties. We both hung out with the same people, in the same places. He is about as much like me, from a thousand foot view, as you could reasonably get by happenstance. He wasn't autistic, however. He managed to recover his difficult start and turn it into a string of social, romantic, sexual experiences, where I did not. That was the big fork in the road between our experiences.

Point is that he was just "some dude". Sure, he caught his wave, and I didn't, but it completely disproves... well, you know how it is around here, all the usual arguments. He's the same height as me, we were once the same build, neither of us exceptionally weak or strong in looks, we both had issues as mid-teens - I've known him this long, I know he's still got issues. But here he is, yet again, living together with a decent woman, the nth partner he's been with since I've known him. He used to be my (occasionally not-so-)secret antagonist, now he's the mark of sanity that keeps me tied to the real world.

I know what my issues are, or at least I'm beginning to understand them better due to finally having the right conditions to be able to do that. But I know that they're the problem, not that I'm irrecoverably ugly, not that all women are unstable maniacs trying to tear men apart. I can focus on fixing those, real-world goals, not shadow-boxing conceptual enemies.

I've been lucky to have that context, even though it felt terrible all those years watching him so "easily" get what I couldn't dare hope to have. Some men don't have that, some men didn't stumble into a social sphere after high-school. Unhealthy though it might've been for me at the time, in some ways, it gave me some context I otherwise wouldn't have had, and which would've stood me in much worse stead than even the troubled states I have experienced.

You seem like you're intelligent, and intelligent people often make the mistake of subconsciously assuming others have similar ability to reason. 8 weeks ago, I got into a very long and increasingly bizarre back and forth with one of the people you talked to in this thread.

Thanks. I see what you mean, unfortunately trying to reason anything in these discussions (not just in this sub, but in the broader context of "gender debates") seems like a route to insanity. It's almost a handicap to be of that mindset. Trying to make any sense out of it, the contradictions, the mental gymnastics, the double standards, it's... poison, frankly, to anybody with a genuine intention of trying to apply thoughtfulness and intelligence to trying to solve social issues they might have.

Which is, of course, entirely counterproductive on the part of those who make it that way, particularly as many of those who struggle and seek answers are neurodiverse or intellectual. To be manipulated in that way, in the face of evidence to the contrary, is infuriating. Of course it sends them down paths of frustration, anger, isolation, with a sense of conspiracy, of being lied to and held down. It shouldn't be a surprise that when treated like social science lab rats with constant rhetorical electric shocks, they're going to respond negatively.

If any of those who antagonise meant what they said, in terms of being interested in genuinely solving these issues, in terms of gender equality, in terms of minimising violence and problematic online spaces, then they would listen when we tell them this. So I must conclude that they either do not wish for those things to truly happen or that they cannot be communicated with.

Yet here I am, alongside other men like yourself and some handful of others who seem genuinely determined to understand, to be decent people, to do things right, stuck in a cycle of failing to socialise and failing to find answers, dumped once again back into one of the few spaces where these emotions can be engaged with, for better or worse. I'm trying, I will continue trying, I would certainly rather be elsewhere and living a life as anybody else, but until that happens I still require some social connection and engagement with that which I am trying to improve.

I don't think it's the best direction, but it's something, for an increasingly large group of people feeling invisible and worthless and blamed for their circumstances.

Absolutely - again, it's that chasm between what people say they're fighting for in being in spaces like this and what their behaviour actually causes to happen.

So the tldr of this long essay is basically try not to worry about knowing everything. You have a good heart as far as I can tell, just follow it and you don't have to worry about making some horrible mistake by accident. Just the tiny gaffs of social awkwardness that we all do.

Thanks (again).

I'll be honest, I'm a lot more particular here than my actual internal monologue generally is on a daily basis, because I'm forced to engage with specific points and argue them individually. That's not to say I'm trolling or even playing devil's advocate, it's just that the things discussed here are a lot more granular than I tend to think in when I'm processing these issues myself. I do think the things I talk about are important, they affect lonely, inexperienced, and neurodiverse men far more than anybody gives them credit for, they're downright damaging and even abusive, frankly. I'm not simply trying to be provocative.

But inside my own head it's represented, day to day, more as a sort of pane of glass between me and the world which I can't reach through (and if I were to try then it would likely involve getting cut by shards of glass, far more painfully than most would typically experience when trying to be social or romantic). A general sense of frustration about not being able to put into practice my theoretical understandings of what I'm looking for, who I want to be around, or how to go about that; trying to stay optimistic and take stock of what I am capable of, what I think should be possible, and how difficult it is to actually implement that in a way which results in any social success.

I can do social when I'm thrust into a situation where it's not on me to introduce myself, but I really struggle to feel worthy of introducing myself to other people. It's right there. I've tasted it. But it's incredibly difficult to crush the experiences I've had over the years of feeling like little more than an irritating burden, a bad joke, an emotional punchbag, and actually feel like yes, I am an equal to others, just as worthy of being in friendships and relationships as they are. I can think it, but when it comes down to it, when it's time to actually do it, I can't implement it. Which is a gigantic problem when those few who I was friends with have scattered to the winds, to form their own families, with their own friends, their own jobs in other places, and so on.

So I've taken to trying to resolve that, but progress is slow, I have very limited access to explicitly social opportunities to mingle with those who I know are in a particular place to meet others, which is in itself rather frustrating given that I've found a well of energy with which to really go hard trying to solve these issues and get somewhere before I get much older. It's helped, a little. But I need more of that, more concentrated bursts and more frequently.

I truly believe this is what many of us need, but I certainly appreciate how difficult it can be to come by it, especially if you don't happen to live in a socially vibrant place. Mistakes are OK to make, yes, but you need balance. You learn by those mistakes, but you can't have the lessons you've learnt proven until you experience success to show that you learnt correctly. Too infrequent and they fade before they've had a chance to set in. Too little success and it doesn't cement those lessons into place at all.

[–]ReflexSaveNo Pill 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Thank you, I appreciate your thoughtful and sincere reply!

Point is that he was just "some dude". Sure, he caught his wave, and I didn't, but it completely disproves... well, you know how it is around here, all the usual arguments.

For sure, that's great evidence that looks themselves aren't everything. They certainly play a role in how people are treated, but they don't automatically guarantee success or lack thereof.

Something I'm trying to be more conscious of is the ways in which I'm privileged. I'm pretty above average in looks, semi tall, in good shape, and have... other genetic blessings that most guys do not. And other than being physically fit, I didn't have to work for those things. I've never been told I'm ugly, or been called a creep just for talking to someone. There are people who have done and said the very same things I have, yet did get told those things. It's not fair. And I don't know if I have imposter syndrome or if it's just empathy, but whenever I see or hear of that happening, it feels like it might as well be my experiences too.

But to tie into your point, it's hard to tell the extent to which my privileges have or haven't led to success. Prior to the past few years, for the majority of my adult life I've been in one relationship or another, and I didn't "work hard" to get them. But on the other hand, I paid the price for them. Most of those relationships were horrible, traumatic affairs. Yeas of abuse I went through because I lacked the self esteem to either recognize it as abuse or believe I deserved better. A lot of gaslighting, betrayal, and sudden abandonment from person after person. And a couple instances of real tragedy. It's left me in a very dark place with complicated attitudes towards dating and trust. It's taken a lot of effort to not give into cynicism or learned helplessness. I'm a naturally very idealistic and future focused person, so many of the ways my experiences have been trying to shape me are anathema to me.

I tried online dating for a while, and... it was brutal. It was like if you took all the negative ways it feels to be a man today, and distilled them into a concentrated oil of hopelessness, that's online dating. And that's with me having natural blessings most guys do not. So to your point, how much do those things actually matter? I don't know.

To the extent you might call my experiences a failure, I think a very large part of that (other than bad luck) is down to depression and severe discouragement, mixed with introversion and isolation. I'm sure there are guys reading this wishing even to have the "success" I have, and it probably feels insulting that I would consider myself like them. And I would totally understand that, but truth be told, I feel a lot more kinship with them than successful serial monogamists, partly because of something you articulated so beautifully:

But inside my own head it's represented, day to day, more as a sort of pane of glass between me and the world which I can't reach through

That's exactly how it feels. I couldn't have put it better. I know what you mean, about how it's more granular when expressed here, when particular details of this or that are laid out, but in my head, it's a more abstract narrative. That I'm on the outside looking in. That to try means to fail, and not just fail, but fail catastrophically after investing so much. To give months or years of my life to someone who swears they are different, someone who praises and loves me, and the minute I let down my guard, either becomes something else, or perhaps even worse, suddenly leaves without explanation. Leaving me looking for answers, wondering wtf happened, what do I keep doing wrong. And it all just feeds those boogeymen and conceptual enemies that love to take up refuge in an empty home.

And I know these concerns are a little different than never even being able to get your foot in the door, but I don't think it leads to a different place altogether. It's all a very lonely and confusing place to be, especially when all you hear is the same narrative that you have male privilege and are part of some oppressive patriarchal system, and all other manner of disheartening anecdotes and conceptual spectres and jesters of self doubt.

You're right, neurodiverse men are hit even harder by the indifference and inconsistency of it all. I haven't been diagnosed on the spectrum, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if I were. But a big part of it is probably attributable to my personality type. I won't get too into MBTI Jungian psychology and what not here, but my type (INFJ) are people to whom understanding is crucial. We struggle with small talk, with crowds, with shallow relationships or superficial people, and especially with illogical rules and mixed messages. We need to explore the depths of a person's soul, and we need someone who can see into ours. We need to take things apart and dissect and understand them, so the dating atmosphere as it is does not play well with us. We also suck at selling ourselves. Back when trying OLD I had to rewrite my bio multiple times for it to not practically be a series of disclaimers and warnings xD

And I can relate so much with your struggles in implementing your insights and theories. Like you can see it, you know you've got it right, but when the rubber meets the road, everything is all wrong. And you're just left picking up the pieces and having no clue where to go from there. You deserve the fruits of your labor. You deserve understanding, and a fair chance. You deserve people who see you for the person you are, as an equal and someone genuinely trying his best. Someone who isn't just loveable in spite of his imperfections, but in part because of them. You are neither a joke nor a burden. You're a whole human, and you're good enough exactly as you are.

I'm glad you're finding little bursts of motivation to keep trying, I know how difficult that is. And I'm proud of you for not letting it darken your heart. I'm in a place right now of standing at the edge of the diving board, taking a few half-hearted runs up to the end before stopping, and now taking a deep breath and resigning myself to jumping next time no matter what. Trying to tell myself that the pane of glass is imaginary.

I'm sorry your friends have scattered to the winds as you say. I've said the same words myself. Some have died, some jumped ship with my exes to be their orbiters, and the rest just moved away. I do fortunately have online friends still. I know it's not the same, and I don't know if you have use or want for one, but I'd gladly be yours if you'd like.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you, I appreciate your thoughtful and sincere reply!

Likewise! We may differ in some ways, as you say, but aside from it feeling beneficial to briefly quieting our own internal emotional maelstroms to discuss it, I think it's important that these experiences are "out there" for people to understand, so I appreciate others who are willing and able to provide such in-depth and nuanced insights for others to see. Not that I think it's going to change a lot of peoples' minds about who we are and what we go through, but for those experiencing the same I'd hope that it's at least some relief to see that they're not alone.

Something I'm trying to be more conscious of is the ways in which I'm privileged. I'm pretty above average in looks, semi tall, in good shape, and have... other genetic blessings that most guys do not. And other than being physically fit, I didn't have to work for those things.

Sure, and I think that hurts for a lot of men who didn't have that kind of start. I mean, that guy I mentioned, he wasn't autistic, he had (from what I could tell as someone who didn't live in his family home but did visit frequently) a more wealthy, supportive, tolerant, non-abusive family than I did, I think he had a much more fertile environment in which to finally grow from the poisoned soil that was our school environment.

But I think it's fair to say that even amongst those privileges, yours and his, there are some which help more in a particular time and space than others. For example, your looks are probably likely to be much more helpful in an era of superficial online looks-based connections, because it fits that modern mode of presentation.

Of course looks matter in real life too, but if you're competing on appearance in an environment where looks are really the only thing that can reasonably be judged, they're far more important than they may have been previously. Said friend may not be as qualified in that department (and neither am I), but 20 years ago when we were teenagers there was a lot more emphasis on just getting out there, being around people, charming them, being confident, being forward, just putting yourself in their lives, which is where I think he was able to excel. Something which I, and you (from the description of your personality), are much less able to make use of.

"Privilege" is... complicated. It's simultaneously important to acknowledge and ultimately meaningless. Yes, it can be instrumental in saving you, it can explain where two similar people could go in vastly different directions, but at the same time it's noise at best (because somebody else's privilege can't reasonably be transferred to you, even if everybody wished it could) and at worst it's a petri dish for jealousy and "proof" that what you lack everything that might conceivably give you a chance to thrive.

Some could argue that I was privileged, in that I had a pretty average family; two parents, two children, living in the suburbs for much of our lives, not wealthy or successful by any means but not (as far as I remember) exceptionally troubled by extreme poverty.

But to focus on those superficial observations would be to ignore that I was subject to peer abuse for most of my childhood and teenagehood, I was troubled and punished by teachers who didn't understand me, and parental abuse (emotional neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse), in addition to (a mid-late teen diagnosis of) being on the autism spectrum. Living in and moving around between places with limited social opportunities, run down dead-end towns, which I'm still subject to now. Having any small amount of friendship I had managed to form ripped away from me just as it was starting to mean something, because we're arbitrarily moving again.

So, yes, I guess all of that is to say that it's probably very much "swings and roundabouts" for many of us. Privileged, perhaps, by some measure, but not in a way that can be reasonably quantified or used to predict positive outcomes.

I eventually had a friend group, yes, and like your relationship "success" that would reasonably be deemed by many to be a vast improvement over their situation, and I feel for them in feeling at the bottom of the totem pole, I've been there too. But, like your relationship experience, I understand that having that can also come with its own wells of poison, particularly with other troubled people, as they fight tooth and nail to make it their advantage at your expense.

I understand that. I've experienced the many ups and downs of trying to cling to something, even if it's bad for me, because it was "something", it was "better than nothing". But, you're right, it does still hurt to hear when other people have had deeper (even if harmful) experiences of the things you've never been able to experience. I can't hold that against you, for example, in this instance, but I would be lying if I said I didn't feel a brief pang of dismissive envy reading your message before my mature adult logic brain kicked in. I expect that to be a much more visceral response in those who are younger and not, as I am now, in a place in life where I'm working to repair some of the damage and able to wrangle those thoughts and apply them more positively.

That to try means to fail, and not just fail, but fail catastrophically after investing so much.

I think this is an important point. Many women here speak of investing themselves in relationships which turned out not to be reciprocal, with men who wanted very different things and did not provide what they wanted or expected, and we're expected to "get" that. All that emotional energy, over and over again, trying to date and find the depth that's important to them.

But I think that's completely ignored when it comes to men and our struggles with friendships and relationships. We're expected to "touch grass", to "man up", to "stop brooding over our failures" when we experience isolation and rejection. It hurts to try so hard, and have it feel ever increasingly difficult and hopeless each time you try, only to be faced with being taken advantage of, screwed over, or cast aside like a used tissue. That takes its toll over time, something I would expect those women who have struggled with relationships to understand. But we're not often given that validation. It's "our fault". Which only doubles down on the likelihood of depressive outcomes, because not only do we feel immensely disconnected, but blamed for it too. Some of those women would argue the same, but I would say they have the upper hand in terms of supportive resources, and they can't expect sympathy if they're unwilling to give it, or to acknowledge that they may have healthier environments in which to weather those storms.

And I can relate so much with your struggles in implementing your insights and theories. Like you can see it, you know you've got it right, but when the rubber meets the road, everything is all wrong. And you're just left picking up the pieces and having no clue where to go from there.

Absolutely, and I think that's what causes us to end up in places like these. We're desperately searching for the missing ingredient, the last puzzle piece, the bow that ties up all these things we think we've learnt and turns it into a complete package that we can actually make use of. Only to have what we have learnt deconstructed and invalidated, piece by piece, by a thousand different people, so we're left even more confused than we were before.

You deserve the fruits of your labor. You deserve understanding, and a fair chance. You deserve people who see you for the person you are, as an equal and someone genuinely trying his best. Someone who isn't just loveable in spite of his imperfections, but in part because of them. You are neither a joke nor a burden. You're a whole human, and you're good enough exactly as you are.

A rare sentiment around here, thank you. I acknowledge that I'm not "owed" any of this, but I think it's only reasonable that if we genuinely care, if we really do try to treat others well, especially if that often works to our detriment... well, I'm not so-called "blue pilled", I'm aware that karma isn't the real world, but I don't think anybody should have to feel denied those fruits of their labour, as you say.

Some, any, success is absolutely critical in helping to build confidence and skills which can lead to further improvement and, hopefully, as complete a recovery from a dark place as possible. We're not asking for the world, some special privileges or everything given to us on a silver platter, we just want to know that we're doing things right, so that we can build our way to some kind of happiness, even if that's relatively modest by some standards. I wish the same for you too, and the hundreds or thousands of other men struggling here, who mean well but cannot make it happen for some reason or another. Just a decent foothold, that's all we need, to have faith in our abilities to climb without falling to our deaths.

I know it's not the same, and I don't know if you have use or want for one, but I'd gladly be yours if you'd like.

Thanks. I always feel a little ungrateful saying it, but I've come to understand that I have limited energy to spend on maintaining relationships and, after many years of doing so online, I've come to the conclusion that I need to focus those energies outward, to the real world, to reach out and try to form more tangible connections. As such I've become something of a hermit, digitally-speaking. But I appreciate the offer and I hope that if that's something you seek then someone more able to offer it than I am becomes available to you.

Sorry if I've missed anything, it takes a lot to write so deeply about these things (especially with that dastardly character limit), but again, thanks for your in-depth and considered responses!

[–]ReflexSaveNo Pill 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not that I think it's going to change a lot of peoples' minds about who we are and what we go through, but for those experiencing the same I'd hope that it's at least some relief to see that they're not alone.

Well put. It may be a lofty goal to hope that it can humanize people like us to the people who see us as caricatures, but if nothing else it may be a small moment of solidarity to the many who go unheard and suffer their indignities in silence.

I've experienced the many ups and downs of trying to cling to something, even if it's bad for me, because it was "something", it was "better than nothing".

In my own life, I call it the "grass is browner" syndrome. I always looked with disdain to those who opportunistically branch swing because the grass looks greener elsewhere, but I have often made the mistake of letting sunk cost fallacy or "the devil you know" stop me extricating myself from negative situations. I think I have this sacrificial superman complex and romanticize the idea that the captain goes down with the ship.

As for momentarily making you feel envy, I do apologize. It wasn't my intention to gloat, but only to acknowledge the unfairness that so many experience and the challenges they face through no fault of their own. I know that it can sound like a wealthy person saying "money can't buy happiness, you know." And it's one of those things that's technically true, but little solace to someone who can't afford to eat. And I guess I just try to be aware of the things we (I) take for granted. I also had an abusive and chaotic childhood like you, but I never had to work in a coal mine or prostitute myself. I grew up quite poor, but I usually had a roof over my head. I couldn't pursue my academic or vocational dreams, but at least I have a job. I may curse the ravages of betrayal and haunting memories of what I've lost time and time again, yet there are many who've never felt the touch of a woman. I lament how everything I've ever loved fell like sand through my fingers despite trying my damndest to hold it together, but is that worse than to have never loved? I sometimes think so, but it's from a very privileged place that I can say that. For even the poison tasted sweet at the time. And in my starvation these past 7 years, I think I would partake again if given the chance.

And something that bothers and pains me to no end is how so many women here cannot see their own privilege. They complain about having "too many options", about getting unwanted attention, getting compliments from strangers, complain about how "these guys just want to fuck me" and I just want to shake them. To show them how so so many people would kill to be able to complain about that. The ingratitude and entitlement is madness. To send back the luke warm but free caviar and bemoan the restaurant is barely worth 2 Michelin stars.

I don't expect them to do anything about it. No one is asking them to demean themselves and pity fuck every bum on the street. All we want is for them to say "You're right. My life isn't perfect, but I do not suffer like you do. I don't know the pain of being invisible, or disposable, or a pariah assumed guilty until proven innocent. The advantages I get from being my sex are not because I'm better than you. It's not fair." That's all. Just that acknowledgment would instantly undo so much hurt and resentment for so many.

And like you alluded to, there definitely are women who have been terribly mistreated themselves. Through abuse or just the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. I genuinely feel for them as much as I do the men here. And you would think that their experiences would lend them some understanding or sympathy for the plights of men, but so often it only galvanizes them into misandry and reinforces the oppression narrative.

And in a sense, I am grateful for even my hardships. They made me stronger, wiser, and they taught me empathy and unconditional love. Experience is a harsh teacher, for she gives the test first and the lesson after. I know I have many more tests, and lessons, ahead. But I am really looking forward to graduation, or at least summer break.

But we're not often given that validation. It's "our fault". Which only doubles down on the likelihood of depressive outcomes, because not only do we feel immensely disconnected, but blamed for it too.

Exactly this. I work as a volunteer counselor on a mental health support discord server I run, and over the years have worked with quite a few people suffering from depression, as I do. And one of the first and most important things on the journey to wellness is to not "hurt twice" as I call it. Not suffer for suffering. Validation of one's experiences and feelings is the lowest hanging fruit, and my first step with a new client, after the initial session, is often just to reinforce the importance of not blaming themselves for hurting. And in the societal context, when you have one group trying to understand and improve their circumstances, and the other side brings dismissal and blame, people are necessarily going to internalize that. It's the path to both resentment and self-loathing, not betterment.

I always feel a little ungrateful saying it, but I've come to understand that I have limited energy to spend on maintaining relationships and, after many years of doing so online, I've come to the conclusion that I need to focus those energies outward, to the real world, to reach out and try to form more tangible connections

Totally understandable, no offense taken. I do sincerely wish you luck in finding both meaningful friendships and the fair opportunities for connection in this cold, uncaring world that you deserve. Thanks again for your time and consideration; it is rare in these spaces, as you say. You seem like a cool person, and I'm always open for further thoughtful discussion on this or other topics!

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In my own life, I call it the "grass is browner" syndrome.

I think that's a good way to describe it, the sense not that others have better, but that "this is the best you're going to get, so better stick with it, however bad it is". I don't know that I've actively considered it, consciously, but I absolutely know what that feels like, even if not directly in those words. "Well, this is it, this is my lot, this is what I've been assigned and if I turn this down then I get nothing, I'd better not look the gift horse in the mouth".

As for momentarily making you feel envy, I do apologize. It wasn't my intention to gloat, but only to acknowledge the unfairness that so many experience and the challenges they face through no fault of their own.

Oh, absolutely, no worries, I didn't take it that way at all. I acknowledge that it's my issue to deal with, if and when I feel that way, and that it's not anybody else's fault that they've had more experience than I have, for better or worse. It's just part of the deal, you know?

When it does bother me, it's situations and people like you mentioned, the "homeless people should just buy a house" crowd. The blatant, gleeful ignorance, the utter failure to have any feeling for a suffering human being, the arrogant dismissal.

It's one thing to have had those experiences and to talk about how they affected you, but you did so in a way which understood that other people may not (ever) experience that. You did absolutely nothing wrong.

Just as a woman hosting a YouTube show or a woman shopping for groceries or a college classmate, or women at the beach or the gym, have done nothing wrong by "existing as a woman" in a man's life. Doesn't stop him hurting every time he sees them, knowing that he can't be the partner of such a woman, the likes of which haunt his empty days as he struggles to come to terms with his loneliness. It's not her fault just for happening to be in his sphere of existence, but it's not his either. But it's still a very real and very painful sense of emotional starvation.

For even the poison tasted sweet at the time. And in my starvation these past 7 years, I think I would partake again if given the chance.

And something that bothers and pains me to no end is how so many women here cannot see their own privilege.

Can't fault your honesty and, from the limited experiences I have had, I can certainly appreciate that. I've had a select few situations in my life where I have been... let's say subjected to physical intimacy (nothing violent, but which took advantage of my naivete and lack of agency) and... well, yes, I thought - again, for better or worse - that they were good for me. "Better than nothing", I thought.

I don't think I took a lot positive from them. But what I understand about that, which many here deny, is that even though they were overwhelmingly negative experiences, they were absolutely instrumental in helping me stay strong, helping me keep hope, helping me think that "if this one thing happened, however bad it was, maybe other, better things can happen".

I gained a modicum of life, I learnt that sometimes yes isn't always the right answer, I experienced just a tiny amount of the interaction a relationship might bring. It gave me a window into what I here for.

That's important. I can't very well describe specifics, but it gives a huge sense of future, of possibility, of connective life experience. It fuels you. It lets you hold onto a tiny sliver of "I experienced something", so that when other people talk about sex and relationships, you can at least think back to that one stupid trivial time where you kinda did something with someone. I can't begin to explain how much of a saving grace that is to someone who can't freely spool off a list of this partner and that kink and those one-night stands and the friends with benefits you had in college.

To deny the effect that has on development, mental health, and sense of place in the world, to suggest to men who have had nothing, or very little, that "it's not important", is abusive. It is, I'm sure, unfathomable to those who have long since passed that period of life. If indeed they ever really experienced it at all. But I wish there were a drug that could let people feel these things, because clearly they're unable or unwilling to even attempt to conceive of, or imagine, any of them.

I don't expect them to do anything about it. No one is asking them to demean themselves and pity fuck every bum on the street. All we want is for them to say "You're right. My life isn't perfect, but I do not suffer like you do.

Absolutely. That terrible strawman of "so what, you want us to suck the depression out of your dick like some kind of charity whore?" is a dismissal in disguise. Many times I've answered questions like those, clearly asked in bad faith, but responded to as though they were written out of frustration.

I've said the same thing you're saying about simply acknowledging the clear observable privilege and, if you can, trying to understand how these men feel, to validate the legitimate grievances and pains they experience daily. I've spoken about how we need more male-friendly spaces, more male-friendly mental health services, how we need to dial back on the feminist "we don't need men" and "men are animals" rhetoric.

But they simply don't care. It's a tired attempt to simply handwave away men's requests as unreasonable, misogynistic, and borderline illegal. Even if someone does respond to what I'm saying, it's usually some form of "and how?", some suggestion that my recommendations are too hard or infeasible, a chain of endless questions forcing me to explain every detail of that which I can't possibly be expected to be qualified to plan and implement myself, causing me to simply give up trying to make my point.

And like you alluded to, there definitely are women who have been terribly mistreated themselves. Through abuse or just the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Indeed, and it certainly makes a mockery of any claims of wanting gender equality. We, as a society, very clearly care about women. We have shelters, we have special laws, we plaster the newspapers and TV news with reports of how one woman has gone missing, whilst countless men die silently or suffer homelessness, and despite claims that mental health is a pandemic which needs to be fixed, men's mental health is routinely ridiculed. It's no wonder that men feel hugely disrespected, ignored, overlooked, and treated as meat.

And in a sense, I am grateful for even my hardships.

Quite. I have my loneliness and even my bullying to "thank" for the intellectual skills I've developed, skills which became a degree, which became my career. It's a very new career, because I spent so many years feeling hopeless, unworthy, and meaningless. But it's a career, now, nonetheless. A career that I may not have if it weren't for being forced to spend so long on my own, tending to my own needs, trying desperately to fill my mind with something that wasn't endless screaming.

Is it enough? No. Just like it was never enough when I was trying to drown myself in intellectual pursuits. I still need that human connection which I so sorely lack. But when it comes down to it, I agree with you, it's made me who I am. I'm not so quick to hand-wave away the importance of connection, or having value, or being listened to. Which I'm more than happy to apply to the women who ask it for themselves.

Of course I wish for women not to experience horrific, intrusive, and violent crimes. That's a given. Society already instils that in us, every single day, almost from birth. But where's the reciprocation? Why the sudden abdication of social duty that we're supposed to diligently observe, but they are not? If the social contract is not adhered to in both directions, men absolutely have the right to say "yes, but what about us?"

And one of the first and most important things on the journey to wellness is to not "hurt twice" as I call it.

Absolutely, and we do this to the extreme with women. An example I've used in the past is post-partum depression. We strive to do our utmost to make her feel that it was a severe medical abnormality, that she was not in control of the harm she did to her child, we understand that it was driven not by malice but by critical mental health issues which were not correctly overseen. We send her to a therapist, we try to make absolutely sure that she knows that she was not at fault, despite having committed one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Which I do not object to, provided it's genuine. It's a medical diagnosis for a reason. I trust that it has been validated as a genuine, serious loss of control, for genuine, serious medical reasons. I would not wish a woman who was a legitimate victim of such immense mental health trauma to experience more of it, if we can help it.

But when a man is suffering severe mental health issues, even if he has not committed any crime and has no likelihood of doing so, he is the worst person on the planet. Clearly a raging misogynist, a threat to women, a danger of his own making, evil and irredeemably disturbed until the day he dies (presumably of health complications caused by serious loneliness).

There is no universe in which that is fair and, as I'm sure you'd no doubt agree, is causing more hatred, division, and illness than it's solving, by a huge ratio.

Thanks again for your time and consideration; it is rare in these spaces, as you say. You seem like a cool person, and I'm always open for further thoughtful discussion on this or other topics!

Thanks, and the same to you. Genuinely refreshing to be able to discuss these issues without getting immediately shut down with an insult, an accusation, or a cruel joke!

[–]AnyIntroduction3288No pill woman 11 points12 points13 points 3 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

Oh, cut the person off? Like women keep saying means you were "never interested in her in the first place, you just wanted to fuck"?

But I would point out that the OP also included the potential scenario in which nothing has been expressed:

or second case haven’t done that

In which case my response would be relevant.

Even if my response hadn't been valid in the context of this particular post, it's still relevant to the broader discussion that's frequently had around here regarding men who "orbit" because "they want to snake into her pants" by playing the long game and making her think he's a genuine friend (but actually, so we're told, is lying so he can use her body and doesn't care/hasn't ever cared about her as a person).

If we're up-front then we're thirsty dogs, if we wait then we're manipulative assholes.

I'd also note that the OP ignores the potential that some women do take advantage of that attention and availability of resources. But we can't be admitting that, can we? It'd make women look bad and the OP's argument too flawed.

[–]puddingbike 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't doubt there are women like that. I'm not so inexperienced or anxious that I haven't encountered women who are just as crude and smutty as any man.

The problem, however, is telling one from another.

Having said that, I'm not sure that's quite my style, for better or worse. I genuinely want more than just sex, I don't even care if it comes later instead of up-front, I'd even prefer that. I know what you said could just as easily be a joke, but if I felt it coming out of my mouth, I'd expect it to be taken rather more seriously than I meant it, you know?

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have primitive drives just like any other human being, so I wouldn't say that, of course I want physical intimacy, it's just that I want connection more than I want sex, and I would expect that the physical stuff would come along with a relationship at some point, to round out the package.

[–]puddingbike 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not so inexperienced or anxious that I haven't encountered women who are just as crude and smutty as any man. The problem, however, is telling one from another.

Your disposition is evident even from just these posts. Sexual desire is not "crude" or "smutty." Part of what's going on with you might be these notions. There is no fucking telling "one from the other." They're all the one. They're all the same. HUMANS HAVE SEXUAL DESIRE!

Having said that, I'm not sure that's quite my style, for better or worse. I genuinely want more than just sex,

You seem to believe that these things are mutually exclusive.

I know what you said could just as easily be a joke, but if I felt it coming out of my mouth, I'd expect it to be taken rather more seriously than I meant it, you know?

I did mean it. I was 100% serious. She was beautiful. Of course I wanted her pussy. They've convinced men that we're supposed to be ashamed of our completely normal desire to want a beautiful woman's pussy. I'm not ashamed of that desire! And, if you roll that way, women sense your disposition, and it works out very favorably for you. Women fucking hate some deceptive little weasel man.

it's just that I want connection more than I want sex

Wanting connection is just as naturally human as sexual desire.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Your disposition is evident even from just these posts. Sexual desire is not "crude" or "smutty." Part of what's going on with you might be these notions. There is no fucking telling "one from the other." They're all the one. They're all the same. HUMANS HAVE SEXUAL DESIRE!

I think you misunderstand me. My position here is that other people, primarily certain types of women, feel that male sexuality is disgusting and predatory. My own government backs up that sentiment. Women are victims, men are animals.

I, personally, do not believe that. I was born with the body I have, you can't get any more natural than that. Same as every man before and after me. I've got a dick, it's there for a reason, and I've got the necessary nervous system and chemical emitters to understand, innately, why it's there.

I categorically do not believe that these things could possibly be wrong. You can't get any more natural, normal, and healthy than having a functioning sex drive and sexual organs, and the desire to use them. That's how we exist.

A group of neurotic women hell-bent on blaming men for anything and everything from a minor social inconvenience to systemic crimes against women won't change that.

But what they can change is public perception. The way we're treated when we express those desires or try to have certain interactions with other people. This can drive damaging social attitudes and even influence public policy. That's not something I can as easily dismiss as the minority of women themselves who have (or at least speak) these beliefs.

You seem to believe that these things are mutually exclusive.

Not really, I'm just aware that I can't necessarily cash the cheques that my mouth is writing if I say those things. I'm not going to get very far saying things like that when she realises I haven't got a clue how to follow up on it.

Women fucking hate some deceptive little weasel man.

You seem to be backing up their assertion that someone who isn't sexually forward must be deceptive and predatory.

Wanting connection is just as naturally human as sexual desire.

Of course it is, that's why I want it. Both, in fact. To echo what I said in my earlier paragraphs, I know that these things couldn't be more natural. The problem is the social constructs around them which may result in material damage if they're misinterpreted or twisted around to appear unnatural or evil.

[–]puddingbike 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnyIntroduction3288No pill woman 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Oh, cut the person off? Like women keep saying means you were "never interested in her in the first place, you just wanted to fuck"?

That’s their issue to deal with. In case you needed clarification, you don’t need to be rude about cutting her off. You don’t need to announce it.

Even if my response hadn't been valid in the context of this particular post, it's still relevant to the broader discussion that's frequently had around here regarding men who "orbit" because "they want to snake into her pants" by playing the long game and making her think he's a genuine friend (but actually, so we're told, is lying so he can use her body and doesn't care/hasn't ever cared about her as a person).

If we're up-front then we're thirsty dogs, if we wait then we're manipulative assholes.

If you want to have sex with a girl (and it’s weird how you just specify sex and not relationships) then spending years as just a friend is not an effective strategy.

If you’re friends with a girl for years and develop a crush on her and want a relationship, then it’s different.

In either case, you’re allowed to ask her out but you also are in the wrong if she says no and you get super bitter.

I'd also note that the OP ignores the potential that some women do take advantage of that attention and availability of resources. But we can't be admitting that, can we? It'd make women look bad and the OP's argument too flawed.

Because just as with a platonic friendship, it’s on you to not overextend yourself for your friends and to have healthy boundaries.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

That’s their issue to deal with. In case you needed clarification, you don’t need to be rude about cutting her off. You don’t need to announce it.

That's enough to receive an accusation - and is, to some women here, proof - that you "never wanted her as a friend in the first place". If you just ghost, or even if you say "I'm sorry, I love being around you, but I feel too strongly for you to go back to what we were, I don't want to make things awkward between us", you're "proving" you only wanted to fuck, otherwise you'd stick around and make it work. Doesn't need to have ever involved being nasty or insulting.

If you want to have sex with a girl (and it’s weird how you just specify sex and not relationships) then spending years as just a friend is not an effective strategy.

That's not my personal view, that's what women here accuse us of. I'm not up for one-night stands or fuck-and-run. I want a relationship. But it doesn't matter what I want or think, apparently, because I'm a man and therefore am "the same as all the other men", which means I can only think with my dick and can't possibly have deeper thoughts and feelings driving my actions. No, it must be because I'm a brainless horndog sniffing around anything with a pussy.

If you’re friends with a girl for years and develop a crush on her and want a relationship, then it’s different.

That's not what I'm hearing around here. No, that would make me a clueless, inert, anxiety-riddled orbiter who just wanted to have sex with her but couldn't admit it, just following her around like a puppy dog, dreaming about the day I'll finally get in her pants.

Because just as with a platonic friendship, it’s on you to not overextend yourself for your friends and to have healthy boundaries.

Oh? That's funny, because I'm pretty sure in recent years there's been a million articles and videos demanding that men "be better", asking "where have all the good men gone?", expecting men to "step up" and "stop being part of the problem" (by "enabling" those who are abusive).

Where was the consideration for our boundaries then? Not only are we not supposed to consider our boundaries around female friends, we're not even supposed to consider them when female strangers are involved, lest we get accused of being complicit in some kind of supposed misogynistic culture of hate and violence towards women.

[–]AnyIntroduction3288No pill woman 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

That's enough to receive an accusation - and is, to some women here, proof - that you "never wanted her as a friend in the first place". If you just ghost, or even if you say "I'm sorry, I love being around you, but I feel too strongly for you to go back to what we were, I don't want to make things awkward between us", you're "proving" you only wanted to fuck, otherwise you'd stick around and make it work. Doesn't need to have ever involved being nasty or insulting.

I think you’re taking this way too seriously.

This:

"I'm sorry, I love being around you, but I feel too strongly for you to go back to what we were, I don't want to make things awkward between us",

This is perfectly acceptable and healthy to say. If you say this to a girl and her response is to get offended, then she clearly has problems. Why would you want to be in a relationship with a girl who is offended, vindictive, or angry when you tell her this? Why would you want to prove yourself to her as a good person?

That's not my personal view, that's what women here accuse us of. I'm not up for one-night stands or fuck-and-run. I want a relationship. But it doesn't matter what I want or think, apparently, because I'm a man and therefore am "the same as all the other men", which means I can only think with my dick and can't possibly have deeper thoughts and feelings driving my actions. No, it must be because I'm a brainless horndog sniffing around anything with a pussy.

Because any time a relationship goes wrong for a woman, men tell her she should have known better or picked better.

That's not what I'm hearing around here. No, that would make me a clueless, inert, anxiety-riddled orbiter who just wanted to have sex with her but couldn't admit it, just following her around like a puppy dog, dreaming about the day I'll finally get in her pants.

Because if she says no then you need to move on and either stay just friends or remove yourself from her.

Oh? That's funny, because I'm pretty sure in recent years there's been a million articles and videos demanding that men "be better", asking "where have all the good men gone?", expecting men to "step up" and "stop being part of the problem" (by "enabling" those who are abusive).

Because you can be better, be a good man, step up, and be supportive, be kind, etc etc etc without overextending yourself and having boundaries.

Where was the consideration for our boundaries then? Not only are we not supposed to consider our boundaries around female friends, we're not even supposed to consider them when female strangers are involved, lest we get accused of being complicit in some kind of supposed misogynistic culture of hate and violence towards women.

If you see a lady getting harassed and you just sit there and do nothing (and it isn’t a safety situation you) because “she won’t want to have sex with me” then that is wrong. That isn’t having healthy boundaries or being a good person.

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

This is perfectly acceptable and healthy to say. If you say this to a girl and her response is to get offended, then she clearly has problems. Why would you want to be in a relationship with a girl who is offended, vindictive, or angry when you tell her this? Why would you want to prove yourself to her as a good person?

Sure. I think that's the case. But many women apparently don't, or at least they make a point of saying so, whether they believe it or not, and that's something that we have to navigate now, in a world where mainstream media and government institutions are on the side of women. With a social context of "women are victims, men are predators, women are oppressed, men are oppressors, this gender dynamic is pervasive but unacceptable, and if you are seen to be perpetuating it as a man then you are effectively a social criminal".

I don't have to prove to her that I'm a good person. I have to prove to everybody else that I'm a good person, so I don't get smeared for a minor miscalculation. She has society on her side, I don't.

Because any time a relationship goes wrong for a woman, men tell her she should have known better or picked better.

Well, with all due respect, perhaps she should? It is always her fault? Are men faultless angels? No. But she shares some of the responsibility for any relationships she gets into (or sexual encounters she believes might be the start of relationships).

Because if she says no then you need to move on and either stay just friends or remove yourself from her.

Cool, but I can't believe that's where things will end when faced with a) very little experience and b) highly dissonant "advice" or authoritative "truths". Do I think it's likely that I'm going to run into a string of women who will try to drag my carcass across social media or try to have me arrested? No. Inexperienced though I am, I'm not so disconnected from real life to think that's probably going to happen. But in the quest for understanding of how to navigate these dangerous waters safely, that's what you're faced with online, when you have nobody in the real world to guide you: hostile non-advice, accusations, and insults.

Because you can be better, be a good man, step up, and be supportive, be kind, etc etc etc without overextending yourself and having boundaries.

I would've thought so too, but to some that's clearly not enough, we're supposed to be active campaigners for women, we're supposed to step in and protect them in instances of public violence. Not all of us are equipped for that. But it's often demanded of us anyway, under threat of being considered just as bad as the abusers themselves.

If you see a lady getting harassed and you just sit there and do nothing (and it isn’t a safety situation you) because “she won’t want to have sex with me” then that is wrong. That isn’t having healthy boundaries or being a good person.

Who said anything about "she won't have sex with me"?

No, I may not step in if I see something, because a) I'm more likely to get the shit kicked out of me if I do that than she is for turning him down, b) I don't know if it's even a case of harassment, she might be playfully indulging him - or she might even have instigated it, and c) I don't expect that she would come to my aid if I were being harassed either.

But it's got nothing to do with whether I think she'll have sex with me or not.

[–]AFuzzyMuffin 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

To answer the above question you asked about friends first, it's kinda simple, but takes nuance.

Okay so here it is. Let's say you meet a friends first woman? Ask yourself why she said this.

Technically friends first isn't really friends. I think women don’t articulate this well. What they mean is light dating, without hard feelings, expectations. You are not totally single but there isn't anything from stopping you from going on tindr or hooking up with another person.

This period is where you get to know them do LIGHT romantic stuff like “hang outs” movies, dinner, cuddling maybe etc.

The trick to this stage as a man honestly is to absolve yourself of any responsibility for progression. Don’t let anyone male or female have their cake and eat it to. Eventually your “friendship” will either be not enough for her or not SAFE enough and she will want to progress.

Before you get to this point make it very clear, because she said friends first you are doing zero escalation etc. If she wants more she will have to directly tell you, this pretty much makes sure when she pulls the trigger she means it, if you do it it can be seen as too early/too late emotion wise, but if SHE does it well it's perfect.

Now you are dating and have expectations, you can't go out with the guys Friday because she wants date night every other week etc, when your friend you can say I'm busy see you next week.

That's all it is man it really isn't more complicated than that. Make your romantic intentions known in the friends first category ONE time only by telling her she will initiate anything past that stage and you have done your job, sit back and have fun. Be “friends”

[–]bottleblankConscientious Objector 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Technically friends first isn't really friends. I think women don’t articulate this well. What they mean is light dating, without hard feelings, expectations. You are not totally single but there isn't anything from stopping you from going on tindr or hooking up with another person.

As you suggest, I think there may be an element of various groups not being on the same page with these definitions.

See, when I think "friends turning into a relationship", I think "someone I've known for some (potentially long) period of time, which I've slowly developed deeper feelings for, and would like to take what's currently a strong friendship to the ultimate next level of closeness".

But it appears, from what you're saying here, that you (and potentially others having this discussion) mean "befriending a woman that you almost immediately have future plans for".

If I were to be interested in someone that way, I would want to say so fairly quickly... although I would want to establish that I'm actually interested first, I'm not about to tell someone I want a long-term relationship with them without establishing that we're cool together, right?

But I wouldn't think of that as "friends", not in the sense I explained above, I would consider that "acquaintances with immediate potential to date". I might refer to them as friends, perhaps, I don't know, I've never been in that position, but if I'm hanging around someone new because I want to date them then I'm going to (have to be) up-front about that as soon as is appropriate (not before I know I like them that way, looks aren't enough, but not so long that I'm misrepresenting what I'm in this relationship for).

Given that, I don't know that I can reasonably comment in depth on the rest of what you wrote, but I appreciate that you took the trouble to do so, and I don't really have any objections to it, sounds sensible to me.

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So tell me, o wise oracle, when would that be acceptable? How soon is too soon? How long is too long?

How would one avoid being accused of bringing it up so soon as to show that they're only interested in sex? How would one avoid being accused of being a "hanger on" playing the long game to trick sex out of a woman?

Because as far as I can tell, if (some) women receive that kind of information from a man they've been familiar with for some time, it's a sign that they were never serious about being friends in the first place, it's some disgusting act of treachery, some act of war by destroying what they had before, as platonic social associates.

Meanwhile, if you bring it up earlier, you're apparently not interested in having a friendship at all, you want to get right down to the sex.

To be clear, again: I'm not primarily interested in sex. I want a serious long-term relationship with a woman who I care about and who cares about me. We'll figure the rest out later, when we've decided we're a thing. Whenever we're both comfortable. Whatever, don't care. But it seems to me that the sentiment that men are sex-obsessed is so pervasive, particularly in these gender and dating debates, that there's no reasonable way I could "prove" that - there's always going to be a way to be branded as the bad guy, as confirmation that men just want sex.

[–]EugeneCezanne 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no single answer to any of this. What works for, or on, one person won't for another. Just put yourself out there with sincerity and compassion and accept that you can't make everyone happy.

If you really want specific advice, I'd say you have to make a social read: recognize the moment when you've bonded and are feeling very positively toward each other and take action before it congeals into predictability.

The following anecdote is, more or less, is how you do the friends-first thing. You DO legitimately want to be friends, with or without romance. You DONT wait until the friendship is very, very entrenched to make your move. You DO make yourself clear, but DON'T overcommit with anything too romantic or sexual until you know she's into that.

---

I had a good day yesterday with a new interest. She and I met the night of Oscars--she and her friends were wearing elaborate costumes to a mostly empty bar, so I cold approached to ask about them. She seemed cool, so I invited her to a friend's party the next weekend. She actually came(!) and we spent most of the party platonically talking to each other. Since then, we've seen each other around, commented on each other's Instagram stories, etc. I asked her out for a drink AS FRIENDS (I think I actually said "in the spirit of new friendship!"). She said yes, but got sick and couldn't make it.

So yesterday, after 2 months of very casual, sporadic, agendaless vibes, I felt comfortable just asking her on a whim to hang out in the early afternoon. I went over to her place and we just talked, listened to music, got chinese takeout, had a few drinks, etc. It was a normal, but good, 6-hour-long friend-hang except that a couple of hours in, when we were talking about our dating lives (as friends do), I mentioned that she was very attractive. That was received well, so I said this:

"Ok, before we go [outside to the garden], I just want to address two things. First, IS this really a friendship thing, or are we flirting? Second, can I fix myself a cocktail?"

She confirmed that friendship and flirting weren't mutually exclusive and she wasn't sure what she wanted yet, so we should just call it "friendship" for now. I made it clear that I would be thrilled to be her friend, whatever shape the relationship takes, and MEANT it. We went back to a seemingly platonic hangout--but now the issue was out in the air and, when I finally left at night, we kissed for the first time.

Part of what made this work is that I legitimately liked the friendship and would have been happy with that. I didn't even know I was going to make a move until I was there in the moment and it felt right.

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I have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum, yes, although I'm not so autistic that I can't lead an adult life. I have a job, I rent my own apartment, I am able to socialise when given the opportunity to do so.

But when you've grown up being socially spurned, bullied, and isolated, that leaves you with a lack of skills which require effort to overcome. Effort that my being here (or at least trying to establish how not to screw up the easy stuff) is part of. The part I especially lack is initiation. I struggle to feel as though it's my place, or to know how, to present myself to others for potential inclusion in their lives, platonically or romantically.

So, when someone who is inexperienced, who lacks skills, is faced with conflicting information and very real messaging that says they're in the wrong by default and that women want no part in men's desires - not just on Reddit, but in "real life", published by real women's organisations, the media, the police, and the government - they're going to get confused and frustrated.

Not only because they feel accused, which they often will (because the messaging is very poorly targeted and lacks important context), but because they frequently see other people blissfully ignoring that messaging and operating on what appears to be instinct, instinct (or, more realistically, naturally developed skills) which those of us who have not had experience or positive interactions lack.

What that adds up to is hearing "no, don't do that, never do that, that's bad, that's how you show you hate women, don't be that guy" but seeing the complete opposite: people, those who are not otherwise impaired, socially or mentally, simply doing whatever it is that feels right to them, not encumbered by these endless circular discussions or feeling like any ~~more~~ move they make will have them hauled up in court (or at least the court of public opinion).

Proving that at least some of what they're being told is at best inaccurate or lacking nuance and at worst outright lies to keep them in their dark place away from other people. Which I think most people would get frustrated by and angry with, if they felt manipulated and purposefully excluded, whilst being told it was for their own good or that it was their own fault.

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As tacky and childish as that sounds, I actually think it's a good idea, practically speaking.

I mean, sure, "successful" people will point and laugh, think it's a dumb idea, chastise us for being socially inept, but if that's the world we live in now, where any approach is a potential "attack", why not indicate whether we're open/interested or not?

It'd sure beat sitting bored on a smartphone looking even less approachable.

I wouldn't propose it be used everywhere, all the time, because that'd be a bit much. You don't need to wear a badge or a flag or a ribbon or whatever when you're getting groceries. But a small accessory that you wear out to a bar or something? Something unobtrusive but noticeable to someone else who's looking to socialise/date.

It's not like it'd be a totally new thing either. We've had systems like this before. Women with fans, for example. I'm pretty sure there have been other systems too, like colour coding, but I can't find examples of that at a glance. But, point is, it's not completely ridiculous, we've had ways of non-verbally communicating our desires or openness to certain interactions. In a time like this, where it seems extremely important to know who you're trying to socialise with/date, it seems like an incredibly useful - almost mandatory - solution to avoid doing the wrong thing.

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There it is. How is a man supposed to know? It's not possible.

Most of the time it's very obvious. It's about looking for a number of things generally in combination.

One of the most obvious ones is if you see a woman repeatedly looking at you. Women don't repeatedly look at men they're not interested in. If you're in class and every time you look right there's a woman looking at you who then looks away...there you go.
This might sound funny, but if you're talking to a woman and she's continually responding and taking part in keeping the conversation going. So, if she's talking to you, looking at you, laughing a bit, contributing to the conversation, asking you questions: there you go. If a woman's not interested in a man, she'll rarely do this.
Be subtly flirtatious and see how she reacts to it. It's pretty obvious by the woman's reactions.
There's a whole array of nonverbal communication signals to look for...Google around for research about this: it's very accurate info.
Ask for her phone number. You'll quickly figure out if she's interested or not.

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We can argue over what exactly constitutes the 'Friend Zone', but that aside, the biggest confusion about all this is the idea that everyone involved are these perfectly rational, premeditated actors.

However you define it, FriendZone shit usually happens to younger people, hopped up on hormones and low on life experience. He's confused, doesn't necessarily understand his league or how the game is played. A guy in the FriendZone is often overrun by hormone-induced feelings that are probably infatuation but feel like true love. She may like the validation of his attention without really understanding that, and part of her brain may be shortcutting her ability to see his obvious attraction because she wants to avoid awkwardness, like we all do.

And all of this is likely happening between teenagers or young 20 somethings with active social lives, lots of drinking, and little time for reflection.

tl;dr--most guys in the FriendZone aren't budding young stalkers who think you trade favors for blow jobs. Most girls who have orbiters locked in the FZ aren't devious manipulators extracting resources with the false promise of sex. They are all usually young and confused.

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I completely agree but I will suggest changing the view to completely gender neutral:

Person A likes friend B. B likes C. This is painful for person A.

C may or may not be an asshole, that is completely irrelevant. B and C may or may not date, also irrelevant.

The whole point is that person A is responsible for their own actions, they could distance themselves from this painful situation, they could ask person B out on a date (unambiguously).

So if person A wants to be friends they will be happy being friends, if they don’t want to be friends with B they should not compromise their own boundaries.

Some people can see people of the opposite sex as friends, some people can’t, that’s also irrelevant here. If you lie to yourself or to your friend into thinking that you want friendship when you actually want romance and/or sex, you are the liar.

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If you’ve come onto a girl or second case haven’t done that and get mad at her for not being romantically interested, it’s not her wanting orbiters and fucking you over. It’s you. You’re the moron waiting around and wasting your own time. Not the girl who offered and is giving a friendship. You went out somewhere? Friends do that. You text? Friends do that. Your decision to stay friends and be “disappointed” is on you.

CMV - I mostly agree so posted under Automod

I basically agree with your sentiments here. As you're suggesting, although men complain about being "friendzoned", they're a willing participant in the process. They're usually a bunch of pussies who are scared of rejection so they think they can weasel their way into the girl's panties. That's deceptive.

So, I agree with your basic premise that if a man is "friendzoned" he has himself to blame.

The approach a man should take is this: if you want to fuck the woman, behave like a man who wants to fuck her. When you meet her, immediately ask her out. Make it 100% clear that you want to take her out on a DATE. Make it clear you're not looking for a friend. If she goes for it...great. If not...abandon the pursuit.

My disagreement is that it absolutely can be her "wanting orbiters." What makes you think that can't be the case?

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[–]thisreallyisnotok 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SecondEldenLordRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was like that with a girl long ago. The problem was that once I acted like an actual friend with her, she started to get mad and jealous that I spent more time talking and texting with another girl that was actually romantically interested in me. She started to manipulate me, giving me hope and flirtarting with me that we could be something, she just needs time. Foolish me believed her cause I actually wanted more than just sex from her, I actually loved her. She just kept playing with my feelings over and over for 2 years, used my feeling to her advantage. So you see, some women do use the friendzone to their advantage and keep the orbiters around for different purposes. It is not just the guy's fault, the guy is a victim of manipulation. Would you also victim blame a woman being manipulated by a guy? I am sure you wouldn't.

[–]RacistsCallMeRacist 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NangKwak51 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]alieshaxmarie 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cjt11203 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	If you stay in the friend zone hoping for action, it’s on you.
Author	RainbowHydrangeas
Upvotes	213
Comments	338
Date	May 7, 2023 3:29 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/13atpuc/if_you_stay_in_the_friend_zone_hoping_for_action/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-you-stay-in-the-friend-zone-hoping-for-action.1218659 https://theredarchive.com/post/1218659

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