Daily Community Chat Megathread

AutoModerator · 2021-09-02T14:00:15+00:00

This daily thread is designed to be a place for all the funny discussions on PPD. Feel free to post off-topic questions, information, points-of-view, etc... in...

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Yikes. So you think it's fine for women to potentially die or become permanently injured or disabled for getting unintentionally pregnant? Of course postpartum depression and psychosis exists too. Not to mention trauma from the pregnancy and birth too.

Women should be held responsible for their decisions, regardless of the consequences. I absolutely believe this. I also believe that men should be held responsible for their own decisions. Society should not be required to alleviate women's responsibilities for their actions.

If you want equality, women need to be accountable for their actions, just like men are.

If a woman does not want to have "trauma" from pregnancy (either physical or psychological, do not get pregnant). It's simple.

Because a woman is the one that becomes pregnant, the onus is primarily on her to prevent such an event.

I don't care what you support, personally. You vote according to your beliefs and I'll vote according to mine.

[–]lady-luckii2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]antonio_aurelio1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Of course not. He controls his body and where his sperm ends up. If he irresponsibly ejaculates in a woman, that's not just her problem, that's his problem. He is responsible for his own actions and his own sperm, and those actions and sperm created a baby. Therefore, he is equally responsible for creating a child, so should have equal consequences.

Massive strawman here.

If a woman dies from childbirth, she is not murdered. She is simply dying in childbirth.

If a man dies in the way that you describe, he is being murdered.

Trying creating a logical argument and get back to me.

I had a fourth degree tear and still suffer from bowel and bladder incontinence. I also had severe postpartum depression. Death isn't the only negative outcome of birth.

I'm sorry that happened to you, but you knew (or should have known the risks) when you got pregnant.

That's absolutely foul.

We are both entitled to our opinions.

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Those men, no. But men as a gender are in for a surprise

As a gender? Lol. This is only affecting pro-choice people, in which case, it's going to end in similar results = with fewer/no children from the pro-choice camp. I doubt the government or the pro-life people are going to care because it's a win for both of them.

Abortion and hormonal BC allowed women to sanitize sexuality for men, keep it about fun and pleasure - men haven’t really had to have those conversations with other men

That's unfortunately not true. All it's done is allow women to control sex for their own benefit, and that's not something that benefits men if men are being totally honest with themselves.

Don’t forget thy child support as we know it came about in the 90s. Pre-Roe, the government was a lot more involved in raising oopsies babies than is at all possible now

I wouldn't even call them "oopsies babies" anymore. More like "Meh idc whatever" babies.

So we have many generations of men who haven’t had to think about this stuff the way TX men are about to be forced to think about it

Pffft. Think about what? I can't say for certain whether the majority of the men are pro-choice or not, but I don't believe that they are. Also, this is something that people in general should have been thinking about. Now that "sex = pregnancy" is back on the table, women seem to be the ones that aren't handling it well.

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Often, but not always. By race, class, where he lives, and who his parents are, my dad should be conservative (his sisters all are): he’s a white male middle class to upper middle class man (depending on how you draw that line) in the south born to a southern, southern Baptist working class family. The only marker for being liberal he has is his education, and there’s plenty of educated middle class conservatives, so that’s not a perfect predictor. My parents were even Republicans in the 80s (though never far right wing)…

But, they have both been steadily moving more left to become gradually more liberal, pro-choice, lgbt supportive, anti-racist, and anti-conservative since the Bush #2. The only conservative view he seems to have now is guns.

They also counter the narrative that people become more conservative as they age.

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So there are two types of housing:

emergency shelters. These are designed to provide a safe place to sleep for one night and not much more. Some emergency shelters ask people to leave after 48-72 hours because they need the beds for others.
transitional housing: which is more short to medium term. Anything from like a week to a few months. These are designed to help people with a more stable temporary place to stay while they work on a permanent place, look for a job, etc.

There are more women only than men only Emergency shelters because the demand is greater. A woman on the street faces greater safety risks, many are with children and some are escaping some form of violence. And more men choose not to go to the family shelters and stay in the street if it’s just temporary (she is right in that regard). Sometimes because they get victimized more in the shelters - robbery, Assault, etc.

There is more Transitional housing for men than women because again the demand is greater. Anecdotally I think women are more likely to have family or friends that eventually take them in temporarily, and homeless women with children can get public support designed for families with children (men can too but the children are almost Always with their mother). The other thing that creates more demand for men’s transitional housing is men coming out of the prison system who can’t get housing right away a without a job and cash deposits for rent.

So basically women drive the need for emergency shelter and men drive the need for transitional housing.

What you have to remember is these programs are funded publicly or by donors. When you open a shelter and it doesn’t stay full, your donor or budget bureaucrat is going to pull your funding back. So it’s really is about demand, not ideology. These are the difficult choices that people who do service work have to make.

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Yes, i would also not want to date a woman with severe mental illness like BPD, or who had been molested as a child.

In dating, stability is incredibly important, and markers of potential instability are an instant no.

I would hook up with and have hooked up with BPD women, and although never hooked up with a rape or molestation victim (knowingly ofc), i wouldn't reject them for casual relationships. I'd be good friends with them even. I am good friends with one former rape victim. But i would never commit my life, property, fidelity, and future children to someone who is that damaged.

I'm assuming you're a radical feminist and that your definition of rape is a lot wider than mine though.

My definition is not "got too drunk and had sloppy sex you regret" (otherwise I'd be a rape victim too lmfao). My definition is precise: "unwanted penetration after saying no or stop." Molestation is a lot clearer because it's underage, so any touching by an adult of a child inappropriately.

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I mean there isn't anything objectively wrong with an amputee then right?

Mental scars are possibly WORSE imo, my aunt married a force recon marine who was hired out to MACV-SOG to run Prairie Fire missions in Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war, and i believe he was at CCN in Da Nang when a 155mm round hit near his tent. He was forever changed by the brain injury. Then he worked for a gold mine and in the early 00s, he got in to a car accident due to some ice on the roads, and broke his skull, neck, etc and exacerbated his TBI.

Extreme example? Yes. But he was an entirely different, better, person before it.

Being raped or going through trauma-induced PTSD changes your brain chemistry in a similar manner to physical injury.

I'd be much more prepared to date someone like Nick Newell, the mma fighter born with one arm.

And wym justifying feelings? I actually don't have some sort of visceral disgust for rape victims, else i wouldn't be ok hooking up with them or being friends with them.

Again, i value stability in a LTR

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Because in a sexist society where women are not taken seriously, they aren't taken seriously when doing moronic handmaiden shit either.

And because of how loudly men cry for the days where they had control over women. One of the main ways they did that was keeping her barefoot and pregnant. They push the narrative it's only women want this but abuser prick condoms and litter society with babies for control all the time.

So since they have the most to gain with this monstrosity of an idea which stinks of male logic and is just a repetition of what they did last time in history, they are the ones who get the heft of the blame.

Talking shit about women will not help this image. Men's Lib impressed me for the first time with a thread of men who weren't pandering and showing serious concern and disgust for this political bullshit. The ones smart enough to see how it would affect them as well as the ones who take issue on basis of humanity were super refreshing to hear from.

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Yes, it absolutely is less onerous than raising a child you can't afford. You get a solid roof over your head, three square meals a day and no concerns about managing necessities. The social life is hellish and violent, but the social life for a lot of people on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder is often already hellish and violent, particularly for mothers of insufficient means. The hardest part of it would likely be the emotional trauma of being separated from their kid, which might not even bother some of them. If the stick already isn't dissuading millions of criminals from doing things their bodies aren't screaming at them to do, what the fuck makes you think it will work to dissuade them from something their body is screaming at them to do?

Do they? Chamges in crime rates have shown next to no correlation with harsher sentencing policies. In fact the singular thing that seems to work (aside from taking lead out of the fucking gasoline) is improving economic conditions and opportunities for education and employment in poor communities (which is why spikes in violent crime tend to follow economic downturns).

[–]TheJim66Red God-Emperor of Slut Country 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Yes, it absolutely is less onerous than raising a child you can't afford. You get a solid roof over your head, three square meals a day and no concerns about managing necessities

You forgot the tiny little detail of being cooped up in a tiny room with no freedom for years on end.

what the fuck makes you think it will work to dissuade them from something their body is screaming at them to do?

Their body is screaming for them to have a child they can't afford by themselves?

If the stick already isn't dissuading millions of criminals from doing things their bodies aren't screaming at them to do,

Do they? Chamges in crime rates have shown next to no correlation with harsher sentencing policies.

You think if we suddenly removed the punishment of prison from murder or burglary , people wouldn't be killing each other and invading homes like it's the purge? We should close prisons down then 😂

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Is busting an unprotected nut also punishable

Is taking an unprotected creampie punishable? Anyway, pregnancy can happen even with protection. Condoms break, shit happens. She has the option to abort, if she doesn't want to be punished she can just abort the kid or have sex with men she knows will want the kid.

It seems like ultimately both parents have to pay money for the child, yet in cases like this the mother is strapped with also raising the kid.

But it's HER choice whether she'll have a kid or not. He has no input. It makes sense for her to pay. It makes zero sense for the man to pay for what is ultimately her choice.

It is forcing your beliefs on other people, their own philosophy of life be damned.

They can have whatever philosophy they want. They just can't make others pay for it.

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The point is punishment doesn’t deter behavior. If it did we have zero crime in America.

You’re talking about a non solution that doesn’t address the issue.

A child has been born. There is no going back and having an abortion.

If the dad breaks out, if mom loses her job, if the kid develops costly health problems, if life doesn’t turn out the way you expect, you’re going to jail women for not having a crystal ball?

What you’re going to have is millions more kids abandoned and on the tax payers dime.

I mean I know you think this because you think women are out there churning out kids to get child support payments (lmao).

Average child support payment is $400. I spent more than that on my first trimester pregnancy care. Find me a city in the US where you can pay your rent and eat on $400 a month. Rent, food, medical care, clothes, school — these things cost money whether dad is paying CS or not.

having baby with the average dude costs FAR more than it pays out.

I often wonder how independent you guys really are. You seem clueless about how much things cost in the real world.

[–]TheJim662 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The point is punishment doesn’t deter behavior. If it did we have zero crime in America.

Punishment does deter behavior. If it didn't we would all be living in mud huts.

A child has been born. There is no going back and having an abortion.

What kind of argument is that? "I just killed a man, there is no going back ".If she did something irresponsible like that, she should be punished. The punishment will deter her from doing the irresponsible thing just like jail deters me from killing anyone that gets on my nerves.

If the dad breaks out,

If the dad breaks out he would still be responsible. Financial abortion would only be available within the timeframe when abortion is possible.

if mom loses her job, if the kid develops costly health problems, if life doesn’t turn out the way you expect,

There already are contingencies for that. What happens if a two parent family can't afford to raise it's kid? This has nothing to do with financial abortion.

Jail would only be a punishment if her earnings werent adequate during the pregnancy or something similar. If other shit happens, it would be just like a two parent household.

I mean I know you think this because you think women are out there churning out kids to get child support payments

I've never said this.

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if she doesn’t make enough money in the timeframe of pregnancy she should abort the kid

Jesus Christ. I don’t know how much more remedial I can make this.

I have a job while pregnant. I keep my kid. Once that kid is born I have to support it for 18 years. When the kid is a year old, I get sick or lose my job and can’t support it anymore.

What has putting me in jail solved? I can’t go back and unbirth the kid. It’s still a kid who has to be supported by tax dollars because the parents can’t.

otherwise she would be jailed if she goes along with the pregnancy

I think you need to back up and be clear about the issue you are trying to solve for.

What is it that you think forcing a pregnant woman to abort or go to jail is solving for in the grand scheme?

Fewer kids on the dole?

And how does jailing her while pregnant work? The kid isn’t here yet. She’s not guilty of not supporting it YET.

🤦‍♀️

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I’ve been thinking about it, and I actually really don’t mind what we call AF/BB. I no longer understand the saltiness behind being the “BB”.

I now believe that that whole thought process views women as only valued by sex, which they shouldn’t be.

There’s too many quality women that bring significantly more value than just ass. I’ll flip it on it’s head.

If any man has a 10/10 instagram broke ass bad bitch in his phone, and then a 6/10 Nurse that makes 90k as well, guess what. He’s fucking that Instagram bad bitch, but if he has any type of brain he’s going to date and marry the well educated Nurse with an income.

There’s too much long term value in that Nurse compared to the bad bitch. Too many resources, and on average it’s a significantly better opportunity to procreate and raise successful offspring. So the decision to take the Nurse is logically sound and the smart mans move right?

Women think the same way. How can we shame them for making the same move we would? Yes bad boy Tyreke is smoking hot, and yes she fucked him, but if you’re messing with good women, she’s going to provide you significantly more value than she provided Tyreke. Good women aren’t fleshlights. They are commodities and assets, just like high value men.

And yea, a lot of quality women get lost in the sauce and end up with baby daddies who are wastes of space, but it happens to men too!

I know two guys in the 21-23 age range who have prop shops and FAANG companies beating down their doors with 200k-400k offers. 75k sign on bonuses and shit. And they got lost in the sauce too. They have absolute bimbos for baby mommas.

I might not have done the best job explaining it, but I now firmly believe the AF/BB mindset is misogynistic. And it now gives me major FDS jaded and hurt vibes.

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Even if the man is more likely to cheat, it doesn't mean that he'll stop loving wifey. Also, a man that can fuck tens won't settle with a 6.

It's the difference between hypergamy and polygyny. Men are polygynous and want to fuck all the women all the time. However if they control themselves and don't cheat, the relationship is fine because he is still attracted to the wife and loves her. Women on the other hand are hypergamous. They are only attracted to the best man they interact with and if hubby fails the hypergamy test or another man beats him to it, she will stop being attracted to him even if she controls herself and doesn't cheat. Loss of sexual attraction is catastrophic for the relationship. She will become miserable, sabotage the relationship and make the dude miserable too.

The BB has lost the hypergamy test from the get go because beta traits are sexually unattractive.

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It's a bit difficult to be in a relationship with people that's too politically different from you.

I guess that's mostly true for people who can't pleasantly disagree with someone else on those topics or separate their opinion of someone's views from the actual person themselves.

Anyways, most people I know are politically left. I live in the Bay Area though, we got like 3 days off after Trump was elected because the CEO was like "if anyone need to take a break, I understand" :P

Not surprised there.

I also went to a more right leaning area and they were all cultish too. People just have different opinions and live life differently.

Yes. We could definitely apply a "cultist" label to either side.

A man and woman that lives in similar environments with similar life experiences are going to be much more similar to each other than they will be with someone of the same sex that lives in a different environment.

What about the people who are able to put their differences aside because they just like each other? Are they exceptions or do people just not want to reconcile with their own worldviews due to everyone being correct in their own minds?

[–]chalkandapples1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheBookOfSeil0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you're too politically different, then that means you may believe in fundamentally different values. While it's still possible to respect and reconcile with people that's very different from you. It's weird to pick someone like that as your life partner. If you try hard to make it work, it could, but it's much easier to be with someone that shares similar values as you.

I don't think it's difficult to have a polite and nuanced discussion about issues and agree to disagree with each other while still valuing and appreciating them as a person. Those with more extreme views (or maybe just lower cognitive ability) tend not to be able to do this, and don't see people with views opposite to them as people. In their opinion, the world would be a better place if those on the other side disappeared.

I can have a lot of likable people around me what shares different views. But my SO is going to be my family and I'm going to share my life with them and make very big decisions with them. I don't want to have any fundamental value conflicts with them.

I can see if it was a case of what was mentioned above, but with people who think a bit more critically and can see and consider the other side's opinion, I think it's possible. Like I imagine it wouldn't work out if your partner was against abortion and you were 100% for abortion without question. That would make it difficult to start a family in the literal sense.

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[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

TWICE!

Probably more than twice.

Agreed.

Orange man is actually bad, so much so, that even if Clinton was really raping children in the back of the pizza shop, every decent person should still have voted for her, and I regret not doing that.

I get the whole comparing to Hitler because he's the worst thing. It's fucked up, but I understand the intention. This is beyond disgusting. You are beyond disgusting.

We can't have a man in charge that incited a mob to overthrow legal election to preserve his grip on power.

Lol people were being led in by police before he even told them to "peacefully" protest.

You'll believe whatever the TV tells you. You're the kind of person who will be "just following orders" when people are put into camps. So incapable of free thought that you'll dehumanize whoever the authority tells you. I'd call you a sheep but they're so harmless. More like a wasp just listening to the hive mind.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

before he even told them

Are we pretending that his speech was what incited it?

How about the fact that HE REFUSED TO CONCEDE. Said multiple times that he won, when he in fact LOST. Sent out his lawyers to lie about the results. Refused multiple times to acknowledge he'll peacefully transfer power, and finally even refused to participate in Biden's inauguration.

Lol so it wasn't even him inciting anything, it was just him not accepting the election? I don't accept the election.

Why are all the states with low vaccination rates the same ones that voted Trump except the ones currently being audited? Pretty weird coincidence.

And the results were people just getting a guided tour through the capital and some fed shooting a lady.

Thankfully in the aftermath of Capitol attack he's been pushed out by all his allies and family... but that was crazy fucking shit.

You want to talk about disgusting. That's it. He's the worst of the fucking worst. It's not even close.

If you think he's worse than the establishment than we have nothing more to argue. Continue kissing boots.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't accept the election.

Ok well then you don't respect the rule of law or democratic process. It's incredibly problematic that folks like you just refuse to accept reality, but I'm not worried about you. Conspiracy theorists are all the rage right now, its fine.

I respect rule of law. I don't respect mail in ballots. Most developed countries don't. I don't respect the lack of transparency. The statistical odds are "problematic" enough without all the last minute rule changing and shenanigans while counting the votes.

I'm worried when the president refuses to accept reality. Trump was elected. Hillary conceded the next day, and was told by Obama to shut the fuck up when she started making noises.

Yes, she listens to her masters. She knows her pecking order is below King Drone Strike.

Obama then invited Trump to the white house, and gracefully handed the keys over. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENNED IN OUR COUNTRY FOR 240 YEARS. Until this fucking monkey.

We actually had actual elections and not this fuckery.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

between fake child rapists at comet ping pong, and literal dictator that undermines civility and all democratic principles at every turn

Want me to quote where you said you'd vote for her even if she did it? Not surprised you have to backtrack. Openly stating you prefer pedophiles to mean guys on Twitter really undermines your attempts at taking the high road.

And fuck your civility. You call your opposition Nazis because you disagree with them. Commie and pedo sympathizers shouldn't receive any more civility than they put out. (See what I did there? You too can be dehumanized. "First they came for the socialists...")

yea we can vote child rapists out pretty easy, we were just barely able to vote out Trump.

So far he's the only dictator to ever be voted out of office. Also the first cult leader I've heard of to be boo'd by all his followers. And if history has taught us anything, pedophiles can stay in power for a long time, even if it's an open secret.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

mean guys on Twitter

I know you don't see it. You don't understand how Trump is undermining democracy despite me articulating it to you very clearly.

I'm telling you right now if a choice between child rapist that adheres to democratic principles, and Mussolini style dictator that doesn't. I'll have to go with child rapist every-time. It's better for the country. No backtracking.

You call your opposition Nazis

I don't have an opposition. I'm not a democrat. I'm not a republican. I'm a conservative that deeply cares for tradition and rule of law.

You too can be dehumanized.

You should try harder. "shouldn't receive any more civility than they put out" is just the golden rule, and not offensive at all.

boo'd by all his followers

Ya because that's hypocritical of him to recommend vaccines, when he consistently dismissed covid even after nearly dying from it.

pedophiles can stay in power for a long time

we got term limits now, but more than anything, unlike Trump's bullshit, pedophilia is still taboo enough to get someone impeached.

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

mean guys on Twitter

I know you don't see it. You don't understand how Trump is undermining democracy despite me articulating it to you very clearly.

No you haven't. Spell it out for me. It's ok to question elections. It's ok to ask for a recount.

I'm telling you right now if a choice between child rapist that adheres to democratic principles, and Mussolini style dictator that doesn't. I'll have to go with child rapist every-time. It's better for the country. No backtracking.

How is Trump like Mussolini? Calling people the worst of the worst doesn't actually make them that thing. You have to have proof.

I don't have an opposition.

Unless the TV tells you someone is evil.

I'm not a democrat. I'm not a republican. I'm a conservative that deeply cares for tradition and rule of law.

Yeah like the tradition of democrats faking elections. You admit they rigged their primaries at least twice, but surely they would never cheat more than that.

You should try harder. "shouldn't receive any more civility than they put out" is just the golden rule, and not offensive at all.

Cool. Punch a communist. They aren't people. Also, I'm going to arbitrarily decide who is and is not a communist because I have no knowledge of history.

boo'd by all his followers

Ya because that's hypocritical of him to recommend vaccines, when he consistently dismissed covid even after nearly dying from it.

Operation Warp Speed. Anyone who got the vaccine should be thanking Trump.

we got term limits now, but more than anything, unlike Trump's bullshit, pedophilia is still taboo enough to get someone impeached.

Biden is on video groping children and got elected.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's ok to question elections.

It's it ok to lie about them? Like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell did? Is it ok to say you won when you lost? Is it ok to say elections are fraudulent and stolen, when there's no evidence that they are? Like I said, I know this is falling on deaf ears because you're buying into the idea that democrats cheated. so its whatever.

Unless the TV

what TV do you think I watch that I don't trust neither democrats nor republicans? That I'm a conservative but I hate Trump? What media outlet caters to that worldview? At best its some fringe form of Ron Paul style libertarianism, but I'm not libertarian either.

Biden is on video groping children and got elected.

True and he'll be out of the office in max 8 years. But let's be honest, he's so old he'll probably die before that.

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's ok to question elections.

It's it ok to lie about them? Like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell did? Is it ok to say you won when you lost? Is it ok to say elections are fraudulent and stolen, when there's no evidence that they are? Like I said, I know this is falling on deaf ears because you're buying into the idea that democrats cheated. so its whatever.

Prove it's a lie. You'd have to do an audit to prove either.

what TV do you think I watch that I don't trust neither democrats nor republicans? That I'm a conservative but I hate Trump? What media outlet caters to that worldview? At best its some fringe form of Ron Paul style libertarianism, but I'm not libertarian either.

I think you hear orange man bad enough and you believe it.

True and he'll be out of the office in max 8 years. But let's be honest, he's so old he'll probably die before that.

Yeah you're proof that people are cool with pedophiles so long as they think they have something to gain from it. People will support child rapists if they believe someone else is somehow worse for some reasons that they can't really articulate. The useful idiots are incredibly dangerous.

[–]geyges1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not the guy who "hear orange man bad" I'm the guy who "tell that orange man is bad".

I listen to him. My opinion of him is based mostly on the primary source itself. And only in minor parts on hearsay like him fucking porn stars... which he corroborated by never denying it.

I can understand not liking the guy. I cannot understand calling yourself libertarian and supporting the establishment.

A vote for Trump was essentially a vote for third party.

You act as if politicians are morally better than Trump lol

cool with pedophiles so long as they think they have something to gain from it.

if what's to gain from it is preserving democratic processes... its kind of a big deal.

How did he do that? Did he suddenly change all the rules on how elections were conducted and counted?

reasons that they can't really articulate

you can't articulate things to someone that doesn't want it articulated to them.

What do you have beyond Trump not trusting mail in ballots? Pretty sure that's standard for most democratic countries.

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[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As a Republican, I do understand what you mean. But a lot of what we do is setting policy for the best of the American system, that is collectivist. It’s not letting the brats eat their cake before dinner.

Not sure if I agree though because the whole fight is between Democracy vs Republic which are political systems that are somewhat opposites. "Majority rules" vs "Those with the best judgement decide for the group." The problems we run into is when the majority decide that they want to eat cake before dinner, or when the people making decisions are making the best decisions for themselves rather than everyone else.

As for the topic on women, it’s the same core. It’s not about the right thing to do, it’s about appealing to equity for all.

These two are not separate. There is no "equity for all" in the case of favorable decisions that only affect or involve a specific group. For example, with the abortion argument, being "the right thing to do" and "equity for all" are conflated as being the same argument.

(Trying hard not to make the children analogy) but it’s easy to appeal to their emotions when you say “hey there’s a rich guy over there but those homeless guys are living in tents, that’s not fair!”

I don't understand the analogy here.

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm trying my best not to get too deep haha. I'm summing up alot of complex stuff

Not sure if I agree though because the whole fight is between Democracy vs Republic which are political systems that are somewhat opposites. "Majority rules" vs "Those with the best judgement decide for the group." The problems we run into is when the majority decide that they want to eat cake before dinner, or when the people making decisions are making the best decisions for themselves rather than everyone else.

In a nutshell I agree. But that's why it shouldn't be conflated to individualistic or lazziez faire, that's more of a libertarian view.

For example, with the abortion argument, being "the right thing to do" and "equity for all" are conflated as being the same argument.

That's where conservative government frameworks oppose in that they seek to maintain the subsidiarity of states. Equity for all would be to homogenize, under the guise of "what is the right thing to do"

I don't understand the analogy here.

Well some say "women are children" because it's easy to steer their mentality through emotion, leftists often appeal to that in accordance with their policies, which is why they are popular with women.

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In a nutshell I agree. But that's why it shouldn't be conflated to individualistic or lazziez faire, that's more of a libertarian view.

In a sense it is more individualistic because of less government involvement, less social support, and more individual strength, intelligence and effort, which is why the rich typically are on the right. I personally wouldn't want my accomplishments and wealth taken from me just to be spread out amongst people who did little to earn it just because they believe that they're entitled to some of it, which is essentially the leftist stance on economics.

That's where conservative government frameworks oppose in that they seek to maintain the subsidiarity of states. Equity for all would be to homogenize, under the guise of "what is the right thing to do"

Well yes but I was referring more to the moral argument, not the legality of the states to remain individual. Most of the right is pro-life as a correlation and not by coincidence.

Well some say "women are children" because it's easy to steer their mentality through emotion, leftists often appeal to that in accordance with their policies, which is why they are popular with women.

I can agree there. I just didn't see the connection with homeless people because the two most leftist states in the country are also the ones with the largest population of homeless people, so they obviously don't care about homeless people when it comes to themselves actually doing something about it. This is where they turn Robin Hood.

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In a sense it is more individualistic because of less government involvement, less social support, and more individual strength, intelligence and effort

The distinctions that need to be acknowledged is this

Left: Big government (Federal), mandates over all

Libertarian: Little government oversight, let citizens work it out

Right: Efficient government, states knows what's best for states.

Well yes but I was referring more to the moral argument,

Morality is subjective. People vary on their views towards this across states. It's more efficient for the states to vary on policy and let the citizens move to which way of life they want for themselves. Rather than mandating one side for everyone.

I can agree there. I just didn't see the connection with homeless people because the two most leftist states in the country are also the ones with the largest population of homeless people, so they obviously don't care about homeless people when it comes to themselves actually doing something about it.

I think they do care, it's just they don't completely understand that there needs to be balance between oversight and independence. The type of power they would need for their utopia is absolute, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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[–]flamingoinghome1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you talking about actual leftist men, or liberal men?

Liberal men come from liberal communities in liberal cities, same as liberal women. Most people get their political ideology from their parents, with only slight deviations.

I also think there's a lot of...how do I put this?...reactionary liberalism from people who'd have been Republicans like 20 years ago. Like, maybe they aren't the biggest fans of high taxes, and they're pro free trade, but racism and sexism and homophobia and the whole gun-wrapped-in-a-flag thing gross them out, so they round to Democrat. My boyfriend is actually a centrist for where we are, but would be a staunch Democrat stateside. I also know at least one local conservative (and semiprofessional marksman) over here who's the same. When you fight a culture war, you best know what culture your troops are from.

Leftist men, on the other hand, come from Oberlin College in Ohio.

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you talking about actual leftist men, or liberal men?

Pretty much same thing. Lots of overlap.

Liberal men come from liberal communities in liberal cities, same as liberal women. Most people get their political ideology from their parents, with only slight deviations.

I also think there's a lot of...how do I put this?...reactionary liberalism from people who'd have been Republicans like 20 years ago. Like, maybe they aren't the biggest fans of high taxes, and they're pro free trade, but racism and sexism and homophobia and the whole gun-wrapped-in-a-flag thing gross them out, so they round to Democrat.

Makes sense but still not very smart because being against one thing doesn't mean being for or aligning with the opposite.

My boyfriend is actually a centrist for where we are, but would be a staunch Democrat stateside. I also know at least one local conservative (and semiprofessional marksman) over here who's the same. When you fight a culture war, you best know what culture your troops are from.

So it mostly sounds like preferential bandwagon-ing phenomenon in that their views change on where they are.

Leftist men, on the other hand, come from Oberlin College in Ohio.

Interesting.

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[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Like that you can't allow immigrants into the country because it would screw up the Glorious Redistribution of Resources, or that social issues should be ignored because There Is Only Class Struggle At the End.

It's typically the right that is holds these views. The left typically is against them in varying degrees.

It is your civic duty to vote. You can, in theory, vote third party, but that's the equivalent of saying you will bow to the will of other people. You don't have to like a party to vote for it, but to refuse to choose the less-bad option is a dereliction of duty.

Voting is a privilege, not a duty. I'd argue that it's people's "civic duty" to select the best candidate for the position, and no candidate in the event of poor quality candidates. It doesn't seem that people do this though. They're too wrapped up in "my team vs your team" like most fanatics with half a brain.

And yeah, I'm an expat--I didn't mean, like, "a Democrat in Florida but a Republican in Massachusetts."

That's what it sounded like. I think.

[–]flamingoinghome1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Excuse me? Those are literally tenets of Marxism. Like, the actual Marxist philosophy by Karl Marx (and Engels). Again, you're confusing liberalism with leftism. And the right most certainly doesn't favor a class struggle where you take rich people's businesses away and give them to the workers.

I don't know if we understood each other here, but I said that the right is typically holding those views that illegal immigration is bad and screws up the redistribution of resources in addition to ignoring social issues while the left embraces immigration and social issues. I don't think this is mixed up with liberalism at all. Being on the left and liberal are commonly grouped together. Definitely more common than being left and conservative.

Voting is a privilege, not a duty.

We disagree.

It's every citizen's duty to make sure they're supporting their country, but I don't see that as being forced to choose between two ill-suited candidates who, especially in the US, are just as much sponsored actors as they are politicians, if not more so.

[–]flamingoinghome1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't know if we understood each other here, but I said that the right is typically holding those views that illegal immigration is bad and screws up the redistribution of resources in addition to ignoring social issues while the left embraces immigration and social issues.

I was making the distinction between leftism and liberalism. I also was not talking about illegal immigration, but immigration altogether. Many Marxists are against legal immigration.

It's every citizen's duty to make sure they're supporting their country, but I don't see that as being forced to choose between two ill-suited candidates who, especially in the US, are just as much sponsored actors as they are politicians, if not more so.

So we disagree. I think the actual act of voting and choosing the best (which is not to say good) of the candidates who could plausibly hold power, at the state and local level, is every citizen's duty.

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I'm in a weird space right now. I'm alone in my apartment having anxiety thinking about my girlfriend having had a dom. I don't give a shit about kinkier sex in the context of a vanilla relationship, I'm talking full-on he's the master she's the slave as the bulk of their dynamic or she heavily explored BDSM with some guy in the past. She's never said that she has, I've never really asked, but there's been little moments that have made me wonder exactly how colorful her sexual history is. Imagine some guy used to tie your girlfriend up and beat her with a bamboo stick and make her stand in the corner when she upset him and now she's giving you shit about dishes. I couldn't fucking do it, see her as a life partner knowing that. Part of me during arguments would always feel like I shouldn't have to listen to her, I guess. I'd lose a lot of respect.

She wouldn't tell me if I asked and I don't want to bring it up because I'm worried 1) I'll only get told comforting lies 2) I'll sound insecure. I don't know what it is exactly that I hate about it but I know there's something here.

So, what's my problem? I need some perspective on this issue because it comes back up for me every few months.

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My story: I’ve told this story here before but jr was not planned. We planned to wait a few more years after getting married. Were going on vacation for our 1 year anniversary, overslept the morning we were leaving and in the rush to catch the plane I forgot to grab my pills out of the bathroom. Too late.

we had a lot of back and forth while waiting to take the test (you had to wait a little longer back then) and we did talk about abortion as one option. Because we simply hadn’t planned on having a kid at that moment in our lives.

When you think about the “type” of women who have abortions and see red and get your rage boners, do you imagine situations like this? Do you imagine a married woman? Making this choice with her husband?

Or do you imagine a single woman getting knocked up in an one night stand by some immature non committal guy you’d consider a Chad?

Do you imagine a woman who’s told her complicated pregnancy may kill her if she brings the child to term? A woman who’s told she has an ectopic pregnancy and it’s unlikely the fetus will live and the longer she waits the more excruciating it will be for both of them?

Do you imagine a woman who used BC religiously and the antibiotics she took for a cold knocked her cycle out of whack, something her careless doctor forgot to tell her about during her 47 second visit?

Or do you see abortion as synonymous with the type of women you resent for having casual sex with the type of men you resent her having it with?

[–]TheBookOfSeilMalakai Goldbergensteinowitz 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

I imagine that there are married women in the mix, but most of the women that I imagine are around college-age, unmarried, liberal of course, loose views on sex. The whole stereotypical package.

I don't imagine women with known complications prior to pregnancy that maybe arose from their last one, or that were the result of a birth defect. These women are less common to encounter.

The whole deal with abortion is that having a failsafe in this kind of situation encourages more lax behavior. It's about the equivalent of having one of those large, inflatable safety pads below you while you're washing a window on the second floor. You've got your harness (BC) but you're less worried about it being the only means of protection because you've got the crashpad (abortion) below just in case it fails.

My entire concern with abortion is solely with the children in question being killed for none other than convenience as a result of the lax attitude described above. If you're not treating sex like handling a loaded gun with a loose trigger, you're doing it wrong. If you're not doing frequent daily pregnancy tests for a week following each time you have sex and waiting for the results like a father pacing around outside of the delivery room his partner is in, you're doing it wrong.

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Even roe v Wade itself, and subsequent federal decisions, pointed to "controlling when you become a mother" as a reason for abortion. Not being able to pursue education etc.

Can't have it both ways

Well that's not true.

Been having it both ways for about 30 years

You see, post roe they still weren't throwing men in jail for not paying child support

That started with Clinton's welfare reform in 1996

Since then, the having it both ways, it wasn't going to last forever

It shows how out of touch with reality so many people are that they thought it would go on exactly this way forever

The neighbor class, though, they get it: "coincidentally" 1996 was the last time since roe v. wade that support for abortion increased.

Swallowing that false pride and supporting an opt out for men would've broadened the tent sufficiently to preserve abortion

It is what it is

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Last night I watched "If These Walls Could Talk" which is a certified Woman Movie™. For those who have never heard of it, it is a movie that shows the stories of 3 women of different classes and time periods (pre and post roe v wade) and their experiences deliberating over whether or not they want/will get an abortion.

Spoiler alert:

The first woman gets knocked up in a ONS by a Chad after her husband dies, because she "was lonely and wanted to feel wanted", she decides to get an illegal abortion and its implied she dies from hemorrhaging.

The second woman is a mother of 4 and gets pregnant again, and decides after hemming and hawing instead of getting an abortion to keep the child even though she will have to drop out of school again, when she really doesnt want to because she is finally feeling more independent and adult from going to school instead of being a full time mother.

3rd woman is a poor young thot who gets knocked up by her married professor. Her friend lets her live with her and she tells her if she gets an abortion they wont be friends anymore. The girl goes to the abortion center that is being protested by christians and chickens out, goes back to her friend and tells her she didnt do it. "Woman stuff" ensues and the friend ends up supporting her even though she disapproves. They go to get the abortion and theres a big protest infront of the center. Long story short, she gets the abortion and one of the protestors came in disguised as a man coming in with a woman who wants an abortion and shoots the abortion doctor.

Anyways, I havent changed my opinion on abortion by watching it, which is I think there should be a lot more restrictions than currently, but it makes me have a deeper understanding of how it isnt just some sociopathic black and white answer, and is often a grey decision.

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Opting out of child support makes sense, but introduces a lot of logistical challenges.

woman needs to find out that she's pregnant (which can take a few weeks after conception) and know who the father is (usually doable, but I've seen Maury)
woman needs to notify said man
man assumedly needs some time to deliberate if he wants to waive his parental rights
all this needs to happen in the span of 8 weeks for a woman to get a first trimester abortion, and needs to be tightly documented.

The question then is - is it an opt in or an opt out system? If it's an opt-out system then it's easy enough for the woman to not notify the man and keep him on the hook. If it's an opt-in system then does that mean a couple who has been together for years and years, the father still needs to somehow, in a legally binding way, tell (I don't know, someone?) that he is on the hook financially? It sounds like a major pain in the ass, and adds a lot of administrative hoops.

So it's technically doable, but there are multiple malfunction points. In cases where the parents are not already partnered at least it would be more fair tho and is ultimately better for the woman, as she can make an informed decision.

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Get with Altas. She can give you a 101 on how laws are made, applied, challenged in court and decided as precedent in the US.

IE the public does not decide to overturn roe v Wade. What’s going on in Texas is jerking off for votes from fundamentalists and misogynists like you who don’t understand how the legal system work. It’s not going hold.

Yes I understand how it works. What I was explaining is that Trump said exactly what he was going to do and yet 52% of white women voted for him.

What supreme court precedents are not is completely immune to overturn. If they were, Plessy v. Ferguson would still be the law of the land.

6-3 conservative majority is the count that matters for this purpose (call it 5-4 if we deduct Roberts)

Once Roe is overturned, the republicans will pass a federal ban the next time they control the government (which was the case as recently as 2018).

You didn’t answer my question. Where are you from.

America. Why?

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Okay, so you're preaching to wrong person here. I was raped by a group of boys/men when I was 15. I became pregnant. It was horrific. I genuinely can't properly explain just how traumatizing pregnancy and birth was, and that's ignoring the fact it was the result of rape.

Also, to anyone who says just give the baby up for adoption... Respectfully, burn in hell and while you're at it it, get a clue. I'm not even going to go into how utterly that fucked me up. But I'd advise any woman to get an abortion, never go the adoption route. I didn't have any options (my dad was/is super controlling).

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

Those aren't very likely to happen

Depending on the study, 50 to 80 percent of women who give birth experience tearing of the pelvic skin and muscles. For more than 1 in 10, the tearing is severe enough to damage the anal sphincter muscle, which often leads to the loss of bowel and bladder control.

I had a 4th degree tear. If you don't know what that is: Fourth-degree vaginal tears are the most severe. They extend through the anal sphincter and into the mucous membrane that lines the rectum (rectal mucosa). Fourth-degree tears usually require repair with anesthesia in an operating room — rather than the delivery room — and sometimes require more specialized repair.

I had both bowel and bladder issues post birth. Bowels have gotten a bit better (I don't have 100% control, closer to 75). Bladder incontinence is still an issue.

I'm not even going to get into the postpartum depression/psychosis I went through, which ppd is also VERY common.

All I can say is nobody should be forced to go through this against their will. It's once thing when expecting mothers are willing to take the risk and really want a baby, it's another when it's entirely against their will. It's horrific. It's barbaric. Frankly, it's evil.

[–]TheBookOfSeil0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, so you're preaching to wrong person here. I was raped by a group of boys/men when I was 15. I became pregnant. It was horrific. I genuinely can't properly explain just how traumatizing pregnancy and birth was, and that's ignoring the fact it was the result of rape.

As unfortunate as that is, I don't know how it increases the "rape by random people" statistic or the "pregnancy via rape" statistic alone.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

Those aren't very likely to happen

Depending on the study, 50 to 80 percent of women who give birth experience tearing of the pelvic skin and muscles. For more than 1 in 10, the tearing is severe enough to damage the anal sphincter muscle, which often leads to the loss of bowel and bladder control.

That's not death, complications leading to death, or the likelihood of pregnancy from rape occurring, so it's not a very relevant statistic.

I had a 4th degree tear. If you don't know what that is: Fourth-degree vaginal tears are the most severe. They extend through the anal sphincter and into the mucous membrane that lines the rectum (rectal mucosa). Fourth-degree tears usually require repair with anesthesia in an operating room — rather than the delivery room — and sometimes require more specialized repair.

I had both bowel and bladder issues post birth. Bowels have gotten a bit better (I don't have 100% control, closer to 75). Bladder incontinence is still an issue.

Sounds very painful and extensive. Sorry that was your experience.

I'm not even going to get into the postpartum depression/psychosis I went through, which ppd is also VERY common.

I've heard.

All I can say is nobody should be forced to go through this against their will.

And nobody really does, because nobody has control over whether any of it happens to them or not.

It's once thing when expecting mothers are willing to take the risk and really want a baby, it's another when it's entirely against their will. It's horrific. It's barbaric. Frankly, it's evil.

The thing here is that it doesn't matter whether a baby is "wanted" or not. Sex is sex regardless of what your views on it are, or what it "should be." If you're having sex, you're putting yourself at risk. Sex and reproduction are not separate things. Sex is the start of the entire process of reproduction. If people don't want anything in-between sex and birth happening, including the potential negatives that you listed, they shouldn't be having sex.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk4 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Historical-Agency334gale-shapley is optimal for the proposing gender. 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Historical-Agency334gale-shapley is optimal for the proposing gender. 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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Daily Community Chat Megathread

Comments

PUNISH NO ONE OR PUNISH EVERYONE

NEITHER MEN NOR WOMEN

BOTH MEN AND WOMEN

Title	Daily Community Chat Megathread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	3
Comments	1344
Date	September 2, 2021 2:00 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/pgigmk/daily_community_chat_megathread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/daily-community-chat-megathread.1066630 https://theredarchive.com/post/1066630