Does TRP actually UNDER estimate just how much looks matter?

Wildhouse83 · 2021-12-30T19:12:43+00:00

Unfortunately, TRP is inflitrated with dating coaches trying to sell men game. It would be against their own financial interest telling how much looks matter. However, a lot of these coaches are not really successful with women themselves, e.g. they are married to women they would call overweight, post-wall etc.

Attraction is not a choice. It is there right from the beginning or not at all. The right man can do almost no wrong and the wrong man can almost do no right.

Scrimmy_Bingus2 · 2021-12-30T17:31:23+00:00

But is redpill...ironically...kinda blue pilled when it comes to looks?

Definitely. There’s no gym for face, height, or ethnicity. Humans, in general, like to attribute their successes to their hard work rather than their fortunate circumstances. A 6’2”+ guy with a chiseled jawline telling you how his confidence led to to success with women is no different than the son of a billionaire telling you how his daily routine of getting up early and taking cold showers contributes to his financial success.

lulll · 2021-12-30T18:02:48+00:00

yes, they actually get mad when someone brings up how important immutable traits are to attraction. red pill is OCD about control, everything is always about something that you can control, as soon as something uncontrollable enters the picture they short circuit and start lashing out and seething out of their mind

LUCKYMAZE · 2021-12-30T18:13:18+00:00

YES! They think confidence and taking showers will make up for an ugly face

Rfupon · 2021-12-30T19:29:27+00:00

TRP does give tips on how to fix your face and how to look taller, but ultimately there is not much that you can do to improve those. So they focus more on what you can improve significantly.

There is that other pill, but I don't think we can talk about it here

themostgianthorse · 2021-12-30T18:19:58+00:00

TRP DOES acknowledge that you need to keep levelling up and NOT blame your genetics.

For me, TRP in a nutshell is learning to play the best hand with the cards you are dealt. That’s it.

throwa88880 · 2021-12-30T18:59:36+00:00

I always considered what you wrote to be what the Red Pill already is. The looksmaxx/face-is-everything guys have been around for years at this point. The reality is that great looks will get you in the door and into many other doors very easily, but there are other ways of getting in the door (and I know from experience) so I don't really find this fact that damning or hard to take, even if they're not as effective as just being handsome.

AidsVictim · 2021-12-30T20:48:05+00:00

Or should TRP ACKNOWLEDGE that you NEED to keep levelling up, NOT blame your genetics....but realistically set your expectations at a reasonable level, whilst looksmaxing the hell outta yourself because THIS DAY IN AGE 2022, where social media, OLD and looks are having a much bigger influence than back when TRP started pre tinder etc, that looks MATTER a LOT more than they claim....and not to get angry and frustrated when not every girl is attracted to you even though your charm, physique and bank balance are on point...

TRP doesn't claim you will be fucking every supermodel you see just because you improved your fitness and socialization to whatever degree, just that it gives you information about how to improve your outcomes.

Looks are the most important part of attraction but its not the only part nor the only significant part. Social value is massively important to women. I've seen too many middle or upper class attractive women who fuck men who are ugly/average or look like they just rolled out a dumpster to think looks are everything. What those men almost all had in common was they were socially valuable (prominent in artistic community, huge social network, or fetishized for their ethnicity, "exciting" bad boy etc) or occasionally rich. But just like most men cannot become highly attractive, most men also can't become highly socially valuable.

Looks are where everyone should start but of course they should also be realistic that they can only improve so much. There's still value in improving other conditions (socialization, money etc)

Gerpstarg · 2021-12-30T18:25:43+00:00

Looks do everything. Looks are 90%. Women dont like when you say that but if you want to get laid you shouldnt be listening to women. If you want to listen to women, stick to the good old "dont rush it, give it time, be nice, be who you are and you will find someone" and end up as a 45yr old virgin, good luck.

From my personal experience - every 100 gramms of fat lost, every 50 grams of muscle gained and every extra minute spent dressing up or making a haircut actually gives more female attention. They call it personality, but I was the same person, I just got leaner and more muscular, started dressing better and I have girls touching me, adding me on apps, talking about me, telling me nice things, etc.

Girls are very easy, simple and straightforward, its just the years of lying to young boys about "just be yourself and have a nice personality" that have caused thousands of dudes to be unable to find a girlfriend. If they were told the harsh truth by the women from the day 0. If women said: "hey dude, you are fat and your haircut is ugly, you will never find anyone of you keep looking like that", the whole incel thing would not even exist. They would have gotten angry, they would have felt horrible, but eventually they would have fixed their diet, wardrobe and started riding a bicycle instead of eating pizza.

Infammo · 2021-12-30T18:14:08+00:00

Depends on where you're standing. The blackpill says that TRPers who falls short of the male standard are deluded and underestimate the importance of immutable physical characteristics to get girls. The Bluepill says that TRP is deluded and overestimate it's importance because blackpill/redpill/incels/mgtow are all the same thing to them.

My take on it is this, and I see this reflected frequently but not universally in Red Pill spaces. Women are just as primed by physical attraction as men, but are not as limited by it for arousal as men. As a 5'7 average looks dude I can never be physically attractive to a woman, but I can be attractive.

I excercise, dress well, looksmax and all that to be as physically inoffensive as possible, but inoffensive is all I'll ever be by that metric. No matter how far my relationship progresses no woman I'm with is going to get off on seeing pictures of me or watching me undress, they're too consciously aware of how short I fall of the standard for that.

If you talk to a woman right, get her thinking of you a certain way, and impress her with your life you can get her to respond to you with something akin to the genuine desire that men feel for women and women feel for hot "alpha" guys. For a lot of (most) women sexuality is as much about being desired and setting the mood as it is for who she's with. Play with her mind and body right and you can get a girl just as hot and DTF as any other man. She won't be horny for you necessarily but if you're the only guy the in the room it's essentially the same result.

Women are bound by nature to only be genuinely attracted to top tier man. The point of TRP is to essentially synthesize that attraction for a guy who compares less favorably. Most women are subconsciously willing to meet you halfway on this since they don't want to be that superficial and they're aware there aren't nearly enough top tier men to go around anyway.

Is it ideal? No. You never really feel sexy when you have to swim against the current that mush to get a woman to sleep with you, but in 100 years you'll be dead anyway so you might as well make the best of it date while you're young.

EnteFetz · 2021-12-31T01:06:46+00:00

Have you never heard of the blackpill? That is exactly what you are describing.

OldSimpsonsisbetter · 2021-12-30T17:34:13+00:00

Just as an aside point, I hate how most threads have to start off with something like "I am all for you dating whoever you want" "you do you" "men and women are both to blame". Just to appease the feminists and weirdos who think we're all equal.

2021-12-30T20:50:34+00:00

Yes absolutely

You can’t sell cold hard unchangeable truths the same way you can sell an ebook telling you to hold frame

King8Kaista · 2021-12-30T21:35:32+00:00

Looks are most definitely important but not underestimated at all. Disclaimer: Politically incorrect- Typically, men are subconsciously judged mainly on their survival value, so women are attracted to different virtues In men like strength, money, status, outward confidence and of course looks. I say an average looking man has unlimited sexual & romantic potential with women, literally; only if he puts in the work & effort though. Conversely, women are typically judged (subconsciously) on their reproductive value. Consequently, looks are extremely important for women. Which is why you’ll see most HVM with gorgeous women, but gorgeous women with less aesthetic men. May feel unbearable, but it’s the truth.

AbbreviationsHot1200 · 2021-12-30T20:50:05+00:00

No, TRP understands that the 80/20 rule is quickly becoming the 95/5 rule.

Theres going to be some dark years ahead for men, until sexbots change everything

LowCreddit · 2021-12-30T19:41:38+00:00

First and foremost, TRP is for Average Fucking Chumps. If you are a quadriplegic or some sort of birth defect disaster, then you aren't average. If you are a 5'1" Guatemalan immigrant who moved to the Midwest where the average male height is 6', you aren't average. If you went bald at 15, you aren't average. Pointing to people who represent the bottom 10% of the population and saying that TRP doesn't work is like pointing at midgets and saying basketball practice doesn't help you get onto the high school team.

TRP says that for AFCs, getting into the top 20% of looks and social skills isn't very hard. Most men do not put in the effort, and the ones that do usually put in the wrong effort. The problem is that everyone wants a Get Rich Now! scheme. That's not how life actually works. There are no cheat codes. Everything worth having in life takes years of consistent daily effort. You can either start today or continue pretending you don't care.

iamthemovie1992 · 2021-12-30T17:32:07+00:00

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Dulce__Criatura · 2021-12-30T19:23:09+00:00

Trp is delusional in terms of looks for guys who have a below average feature and don't have something to make it up.

Average guys who don't have an important feature below the averageness like height, face, hair(you have to be quite unlucky to try fin and minx and not work) can harvest the results of trd.

Taipanshimshon · 2021-12-30T21:12:30+00:00

They all acknowledge this already. Aside from a few morons here and there.

VasiliyZaitzev · 2021-12-30T21:21:15+00:00

should TRP ACKNOWLEDGE that you NEED to keep levelling up, NOT blame your genetics....but realistically set your expectations at a reasonable level, whilst looksmaxing the hell outta yourself

Except TRP DOES that very thing. We tell guys to eat clean, hit the gym, focus on their grind, etc. Looks count. Height counts. But a guy who is 5'6" can't get any taller. So what can he do? Eat clean, lift/get fit, work on his game, etc.

Look, no lie, women like good-looking men, but there is also space for guy who are otherwise successful/have game/etc. It's not just "good looking" guys who get away with "asshole" game. I do, and I look remarkably like Frankenstein. I just us a bit of "Dark Gentleman" game as well, but I put my own wants/needs first and look for girls who want the guy to be in charge (they do exist and I am SUPER good at that) and want a "gentleman in the streets and a WOLF in the sheets."

Every single one of my girls could do better than me, in terms of looks, and age.

Every. Single. One.

But they choose me for a reason.

What you are talking about sounds remarkably black pill not red pill.

sniper1905 · 2021-12-30T23:00:43+00:00

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NDN2004 · 2021-12-31T02:45:12+00:00

First of all you’re confusing the blue pill with the black pill.

Secondly to answer the main question.

Do we underestimate just how much looks matter?

No.

We know looks matter. Because they sure as shit do. But instead of blaming life for the genetics you were given, we tell these aesthetically challenged men there’s no point in worrying about something that you have no control. So work on what you can, change what you can. But some guys just have the shit end of the stick when it comes to genetics. They could be short, ugly, and could very well have a small penis. Some guys will just not get any pussy that they don’t pay for. But before they go blaming life for having the worst possible genetics and hatred for life and adopt the black pill. We tell them to self improve. work on your body, work on your mind, work on your health. build confidence through the hard work. Do everything you could possibly do.

But If you did everything you could and still can’t get none, then you have every fucking right in the world to hate life. Nobody could fucking blame you because the universe fucked ya, and personally If I was in the same situation I would take the black pill too.

I think the guys over at the red pill guys understand that.

XtoDoubt · 2021-12-30T18:30:34+00:00

Arousal is a three legged stool for women. Looks, status, and game. Looks encompasses how in shape you are, your style, your height, and your facial structure. Two pieces of looks are very hard to change, face and height. If you have looksmaxxed and learned game (status is very difficult to increase as well, and very situational) and you still can't get laid because of extreme shortness or facial problems, get surgery.

As to the last bit, "every girl being attracted to you" is a bizarre fantasy. You don't need every girl. How many could you handle at a time anyway? 3? 5 tops?

Zerofication · 2021-12-30T17:31:50+00:00

Looks matter a lot, but can you change your height? If the answer is no, then why bother? This is the stance TRP, or any reasonable man, takes.

BecretAlbatross · 2021-12-30T17:47:25+00:00

I think it might but it's strategic. It's IMPORTANT for men to slightly overestimate their own value. Confidence goes SUPER far for men. If a guy is MOSTLY self aware but a LITTLE delusional about how great he is women generally love it. It's more attractive to women to assume you're attractive and not be right but not be wrong then it is to have the psychological baggage off worrying about your attractiveness all the time.

Mustbeaight · 2021-12-30T21:12:20+00:00

Every passing year the black pill makes more and more sense to me.

dysonRing · 2021-12-30T17:36:05+00:00

Women are not as visual as men, that said most men (not me) are emotionally compromisable and can be forgiving on looks and this kinda surprises a lot of women.

wtknight · 2021-12-30T18:09:51+00:00

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Flintblood · 2021-12-30T19:44:53+00:00

I’m not here to comment on TRP but I think many here forget that male status of multiple types amps up attraction.

A former date, then roommate then try again to date friend of mine spent the last 2 years single and then told me recently she has a boyfriend now. She had to mention that he’s a Lawyer and a nice guy.

But when she was thumbing through Bumble in front of me one night she made comments about the men’s jobs. It’s not the first time but both women I knew that did this were from Muslim majority religion countries so it may be something ingrained in how they pick men despite the fact that both are very westernized, don’t dress conservatively and don’t attend religious services.

Most men forget that you don’t have to be beautiful. You just need to have masculine traits. Many women over 22 or so no longer want guys that look like a teen boy band duckboi.

RedPill115 · 2021-12-30T21:35:51+00:00

1. There are a few things with looks that relatively universal for guys like height - but those are largely unchangeable.

Just considering characteristics you can change - so not height, not genetics, etc - there's way to much variability among women about what is and isn't good looking.

One girl likes the jock look and hates the nerd look.
Another girl likes the nerd look and hate the jock look.
One girl loves the professional lawyer look and hates the small town guy look.
Another girl loves the small town guy look and loathes the professional lawyer look.

2. There's a huge amount of conversation-derailling that happens as soon as you start talking about guys and looks. You get an entire crowd of guys who show up and demand that everyone agrees that it's their looks, and when they post pics - they look fine.

I'm sure there are some guys who's looks or genetics are why they can't date - but the majority of people complaining about it seem to just be making excuses. And it's just pointless in an advice sub anyways, to spend a ton of time focussing on things you can't change.

3. Being to good looking can be an impediment.

The norm for couples at least is that the girl is better looking than the guy. It seems like if you're better looking than the girl it triggers some sort of anxiety or social dominance competition for her in a way that's detrimental for you chances. There are some exceptions, but most people who get together and stay together, the guy is slightly less good looking than the girl.

The players I've known are always in decent shape, and wearing well fitting clothing that look decent, but they're never "dressing to the 9's" guys.

4. The Follow role always emphasizes looks more than the Lead roles does

As long as men are expected to approach and pursue, their looks are going to matter less because of the dynamics of the situation.

parahacker · 2021-12-30T23:25:25+00:00

Yes and no.

RP definitely puts emphasis on presentation. The way you dress, smell, etcetera. For height, I've seen lifts recommended. So RP is generally aware of appearance.

But it's not the end-all-be-all for RP that it is for black pill. So I suppose it depends on perspective, and which studies you choose to believe.

HumanNumber348 · 2021-12-31T09:03:17+00:00

Well, you can’t do much about your looks anyway, so what’s the point of focusing on it in what’s supposed to be dating advice?

JacobMoogberg69 · 2021-12-31T11:13:45+00:00

You don't understand the difference between an attractive looking man and an arousing man. Yes, a woman will look at some eye candy and hope he can be someone who arouses her, but that's not always the case. An arousing man can be someone who doesn't look like much psychically speaking but his masculine energy is what arouses women.

antariusz · 2021-12-30T18:41:15+00:00

As someone who has personally gone from a 5 to a 8 to a 6 in the last 10 years, mostly based off of physical fitness....

Yes, looks matter more than anything else.

And yes, you CAN change your ability to attract, arouse, and retain women just by being more in-shape.

Red pill focuses on improving your life. I'll never be a billionaire, nor have the status associated with that, as much as I'd like to fly around in helicopters and fuck supermodels all day errday, it's just not going to happen. That DOESNT mean that I can't fuck hot women (double negative). I like TRP because it is pragmatic about it. You can't change your height... so stop worrying about it, focus on the things you can improve so that you can have a better life.

O-j-O · 2021-12-30T18:42:15+00:00

Yeah, otherwise they would be called Blackpilled.

RedPill tells you to go down fighting, Blackpill tells you to lay down your weapon and wait for death. Personal choices. I am personally happy to have the opportunity to put in effort, results be damned, at least on my deathbed I wouldn’t regret that I didn’t give it all.

wtknight · 2021-12-30T18:03:04+00:00

Don’t lots of people claim to see not so attractive men dating more attractive women? If this is the case, then TRP doesn’t underestimate how much looks matter, and one can assume that perhaps these men were able to attract these women with other factors.

Ostengate · 2021-12-30T17:42:03+00:00

Yes, because RP states that looks have minimal if any effect with the "right game" when in reality they definitely matter, but not to the extent blackpillers say. On the other hand a common thing I see here is people just bunching RP and BP together - usually involving blue-pilled criticism, as if BP wasn't formed as a negative reaction to RP or pickup artist shit in the first place.

baresquad · 2021-12-30T17:41:58+00:00

Yep. Not sure if it’s red pill or manosphere or both tbh sense they overlap but yep

I always get the sense that those dudes want EVERY girl to be attracted to them simply because of their strategies and nothing more. No effort into their aesthetics, clothing style or hygiene. Just lift and game and every girl is supposed to fall for a dude that’s a 4 because they supposedly bring so much to the table

That’s not to say that aesthetic, clothes, and hygiene guarantee success with EVERY girl but they go a whole of hell lot further than not addressing those areas. (And tbh as a man you should be doing those things anyway to take care of yourself, not to impress strangers)

prettymuchredpilled · 2021-12-31T00:21:27+00:00

The problem with blackpillers is that they genuinely believe that not being blessed with 10/10 chad genes completely takes them out of the dating game. I suspect it's because the vast majority of them only "approach" women via dating apps where the ratio of men to women is extremely high and the selection process is inherently as superficial as you could possibly conceive.

As a black dude with a 5/10 face, I'm well aware that dating apps will not work for me. But in a real life scenario such as a bar or a party, it doesn't take a ton of effort for me to dress sharp, charm a beautiful woman, and then take her back to my pad. I'm sure it'd be easier if I were a 6'4" white dude with an 8-pack, but just because some of your attributes are unpopular doesn't mean that you should never shoot above your looks level. If you're a man in the heterosexual dating game, then you're inherently valued much more for your confidence and capabilities on the whole than you are for your looks.

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Rugginjoe110 · 2021-12-30T18:37:59+00:00

Definitely. The BP is a little more realistic when it comes to looks

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2021-12-30T20:39:30+00:00

🤭This is literally what the TRP states, that you should always be self improving but understand that every man has a ceiling. The Red Pill nor self improvement isn't a magic book but there is no one who won't improve their dating options and life by using it's tactics.

Race, height, and facial features are physical limitations that every guy has to deal with and honestly some men's attractiveness ceilings are simply higher than others. This is why you must continually self improve on your looks, money and status to get the highest value women possible when dating.

B_B_a_D_Science · 2021-12-30T23:58:04+00:00

I do think your right about the hypergamy point, it doesn't kick in early on and in many women. Women do date on attraction when they are in their teens but they do start looking at resources in their 20 and 30s. Women can provide for themselves but they have to respect the man they are with to be truly happy. Just like a man needs to feel needed to be truly happy.

Women in mating and dating age typically respect 1 of 3 Rs. You must have atleast 1 to get true Respect

1)Royalty = you have a bloodline of greater pedigree than hers (Your born into a curtain bloodline, like your dad was Tom Brady, or your Grandfather was George Washington your related to the queen.) 2) Resources = You have amassed resources and influence (The most controllable R) 3) Rebel = Your a rebel an agent of change (The most dangerous R true rebels don't live long {Tweets don't make you rebels}).

As for men being reasonable....resources and influence is makeup for men you can go from river cricket to Renaldo if you have enough resources and influence. Look at our boy Elon.

Lateralanouncer · 2021-12-31T00:52:37+00:00

No as that's for black pill men that sit around complaining that only natural Chad's get girls. This is what the alpha archetype is and something most are confused about. A Chad with a beta archetype will not get many girls. I know many men that don't fit the chad archetype that have massive success with woman as they have the alpha archetype. I know a small Indian guy whos goal is to fuck 300 hundred woman i literally drop my jaw when i see the woman he is with im guessing he will succeed. Even some fat celebrities have hot woman.

JimBeamAndCoke2016 · 2021-12-31T03:15:35+00:00

Exactly. They can preach about lifting untill they're blue in the face, but an ugly guy who lifts, just becomes an ugly guy with muscles.

Iron-Giant1999 · 2021-12-31T03:35:09+00:00

So the blackpillers are right?

JameisBong · 2021-12-31T07:11:11+00:00

Looks get you in the door, your personality is what gets you laid. If You're a chad with a 15 inch dick with a terrible personality, you will not get laid as often as you should. Looks are important, you can't look hideous try to dress well and have good hygiene.

Lastly for fucks sake get off the internet and make friends, you can get more action through meeting people online than swiping right on tinder for hours. Online dating is a joke, stop using it.

throwawayacc1347 · 2021-12-31T09:28:46+00:00

SyllabubQuiet2482 · 2021-12-31T10:31:48+00:00

Yes they do or in the wrong way. I came across very few redpilled man due to their looks. I can immediately tell when a guy was born with good looks vs had to work hard to be attractive looking. I usually always go for the former guy since I don’t date short guys, guys with health problems and have bad body type ?.

I can get away with lot of things due to my looks as a female. And all my female friends put way more effort when they were dating hot guys. But my hot female friends usually date guys who treat them extremely well so they don’t have to do all the work.

DuncanIdaho88 · 2021-12-30T21:39:19+00:00

Good looks open the door for you, but it won't get you a relationship just because of your looks. Unless you're very rich or in the cool crowd in high school, good looks can be seen as your entrance ticket to dating.

Artistic_Guest4386 · 2021-12-30T18:30:23+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Does TRP actually UNDER estimate just how much looks matter?
Author	Artistic_Guest4386
Upvotes	103
Comments	454
Date	December 30, 2021 5:23 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/rs6zht/does_trp_actually_under_estimate_just_how_much/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-trp-actually-under-estimate-just-how-much.1089908 https://theredarchive.com/post/1089908

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