The feminist idea that it’s “natural” that dating for men is hard is peak toxic masculinity

wtknight · 2024-08-25T01:19:37+00:00

It's a man who came up with, and TRP that frequently states, Briffault's Law, which is:

"The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place."

This isn't a 'feminist idea" at all.

Ppdebatesomental · 2024-08-25T00:07:51+00:00

Most feminists believe in nurture over nature, that we are born similar and socialization causes us to be different. What you are claiming “feminists” believe sounds way more redpill with all their evo psych theories. Rollo himself as stated and restated the “the eggs are valuable, sperm is cheap”.

“ Rollo Tomassi @RationalMale

Eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap. The idea that social constructionism teaches women sexual selectivity is empirically false.
Literally no one has taught girls anything like passivity or prudence for 4 generations now.

Guess Rollo is a feminist now🤷‍♀️

ConanTheCybrarian · 2024-08-24T23:58:34+00:00

can you please share a few examples of current feminist theory that makes the claim that

“in the state of nature, male lions have to fight each other in order to breed. So it’s natural that dating for men today is hard and some can’t compete.”

I have never seen one feminist writer/ scolar/ theorist claim this, much less enough for anyone to call it a "feminist idea."

Professional_Chair28 · 2024-08-24T23:27:09+00:00

Any examples of feminists saying shit like this?

in the state of nature, male lions have to fight each other in order to breed. So it’s natural that dating for men today is hard and some can’t compete.

I’m pretty well read on feminist forums and I can’t say I’ve ever come across this viewpoint.

MrAnonPoster · 2024-08-24T22:03:21+00:00

Honest question: why do you give a flying fuck what do women you consider to be unfuckable think about your dating habits?

Weestywoo · 2024-08-24T23:28:31+00:00

You can "deserve love" in so much that most, if not all, humans deserve some level of empathy and love. But you can also "deserve love" while still dying a virgin and alone.

Deserve ain't got nothing to do with it.

fiftypoundpuppy · 2024-08-24T21:55:14+00:00

If you're now trying to claim that feminism talks about our true nature, then you're saying feminism is red-pilled.

I thought feminism was about gaslighting men about these things? And red-pill is about finally learning the truth about our nature?

Fair-Bus-4017 · 2024-08-24T23:21:30+00:00

Are these feminist in The Room with Us Right Now? Buddy you are shaddow boxing. I have never heard feminist make these claims. I don't care what a small minority of people think it doesn't dictate how an entire group of people think.

2024-08-25T00:23:11+00:00

That isn’t women who say that. That’s red pill

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-08-25T03:44:29+00:00

Pretty sure this has nothing to do with feminism and is more of a red pill idea. I don’t disagree this is the case, but appeals to nature are always overly simplistic and not going to change how people feel about things. This concept also has nothing to do with “deserving love” or not, it’s merely about mating and reproduction.

Fact of the matter is nobody, male or female, “deserves” love just for existing, except for children from their parents. Nobody “deserves” sex either. Simply because both love and sex are things that two people must want, and you can’t force love or sexual desire. Whether most men throughout history reproduced or not is irrelevant to this fact, and the same principle applies to women. Most women are desired sexually just for having a vagina, but women are not loved just for existing any more than men are.

SaBahRub · 2024-08-24T23:02:33+00:00

It’s logical

Men are indiscriminate and thirsty and women are not

RandHomman · 2024-08-24T21:43:48+00:00

Is that a feminist idea though? Pretty sure feminists are against the idea that our nature does influence who we are and they think everything is the result of socialization.

Plenty non feminist men and women think the exactly like that.

MyLastBestChance · 2024-08-24T22:20:08+00:00

Gosh, men here use the lion example to justify polygamy. They use state of nature arguments to justify cheating, etc.under the guise of “spreading their seed” etc. etc.

I have seriously never heard of a woman talking about lions fighting in relation to men’s dating difficulties🤣

Ifartinsoup · 2024-08-24T23:24:17+00:00

I think you're strawmanning feminism here, and I'm not necessarily a feminist. (or maybe I am? It depends how we're defining it, but I definitely don't think whatever definition you're working with is anywhere close...)

Anyway for what it's worth, here is a Darwinist evolutionary biology idea for why dating/reproduction might naturally be more competitive for us:

From the point of view of population growth, women are the bottleneck. If you were gonna colonize Mars, would you be better off sending 90 men and 10 women or the other way round? 90 women and 10 men would be a lot better, you just better make sure those 10 men have some good genes. And now we've arrived at the dynamics of Tinder and male competition, essentially, because that's what the ratios are like.

This also explains why historically, we've only conscripted men to be cannon fodder in wars. Males are more disposable if we are thinking in terms of population and sexual reproduction. This doesn't just apply to human beings, or lions for that matter. If you want an extreme example, look at bees.

So that's why dating is more competitive for us, I think. Ya just gotta deal with it

Edit: and I don't think acknowledging this has anything to do with whether someone is or isn't a feminist, nor would a feminist agreeing me on this point be a hypocrite or toxic in any way. I think it's just biology. And that's not the same thing as 'state of nature' argument, whatever you mean by that (like, Thomas Hobbes' concept?)

SleepyPoemsin2020 · 2024-08-24T23:37:21+00:00

"But the idea that women are comfortable with men failing or struggling to date and rationalizing it with its somehow natural that men “don’t deserve love” is ultra toxic."

A man's difficulty getting dates is not someone else's problem. Failing to get worked up over someone else's lack of dating success is not something that one even needs to rationalize or defend.

Saying men "don't deserve love," if almost anyone is actually saying that, is misandrist, certainly. But there's also a difference between saying that this is how something should be and observing that this is how something is, even if it's unfortunate. I also fail to see how that has anything to do with toxic masculinity.

IcyTrapezium · 2024-08-25T02:34:06+00:00

I’ve never seen a feminist say what is natural is necessarily good. Rape is natural. Physically fighting other men over access to women might be natural but who is arguing that’s good?

Sure, males in the animal kingdom compete for females. That’s why the male of most species is more physically appealing with brighter colors and extra bells and whistles like antlers and manes. If anything humans have tried to reverse that and tell women they need to be physically appealing and men just need to make money. I think a lot of red pill annoyance is that now that women can make money, they are going back to what was normal. That is to say, they care about looks and sexual compatibility the most when selecting possible mates. Then on top of that, they have to actually LIKE the man. Women didn’t used to have to like their spouse all that much. Shot gun weddings and all that.

-Kalos · 2024-08-25T03:31:14+00:00

This sounds more like a red pill belief.

just_a_place · 2024-08-25T03:42:46+00:00

I have never heard feminists say that, it doesn't even make sense coming from their world view, and I am always arguing with some pretty batshit crazy feminists.

attendquoi · 2024-08-25T05:02:37+00:00

I don't know where you get the idea that women don't have to prove themselves. Do you unzip your pants for every woman who shows interest in you? If you do, that's not women's problem. You just need some self-respect.

ElPwnero · 2024-08-25T06:33:54+00:00

I’ve never seen this take from feminists.

oneandonlysealoftime · 2024-08-25T12:32:45+00:00

It's harder for men to find a one-night stand or FWB situation, and on the contrary it's harder for women to find a suitable long-term romantic partner. Check gay dating by the way, it's super ez to find a fuck buddy, but very hard to build a romantic relationship as well (for a man).

Women are penalized for promiscuous behavior through slut-shaming and higher responsibility for not getting pregnant.

Women are bullied for:

Having more than one partner
Getting pregnant (while it's a mutual responsibility to practice birth control)
Doing an abortion
Not doing an abortion
Seeking child support
Marrying because of getting pregnant
Giving a birth while not being married
Getting SA'd

Men are bullied for:

Having few number of partners
Getting someone pregnant
Not providing child support
Forcing women's hand in a decision about the child
Abandoning a child
Marrying because got someone pregnant (to a lesser extend compared to woman in the same scenario)
SA'ing

Additionally, men are generally stronger than women and are more commonly found to be guilty of sexual assault.

In the end it makes sense, why promiscuous, casual, low-investment in many people dating strategy is favorable for men; and why more reserved, strategic and picky strategy is favorable for women

Eliminate slut-shaming and rape culture, educate men on birth control (and for god's sake make a male bc pill) and dating will be much easier for men.

I don't think it'll ever be equal, because I don't know how "male" and "female" sexuality and attraction would work in a world, where your gender doesn't make you less or more safe. But at least it's the reasons for this gap, that exists.

SaBahRub · 2024-08-24T23:26:56+00:00

It’s not. If you’re spamming hundred of women, your success rate will be low

Plazmatron44 · 2024-08-25T13:19:57+00:00

Feminism has always been fine with toxic masculinity if it benefits women, feminism has never been about equality it has always been about benefitting women even if said benefits are unsustainable.

captaindestucto · 2024-08-26T05:44:57+00:00

That is more a female dating strategy /obnoxious femcel perspective, not liberal feminism.

Former_Range_1730 · 2024-08-25T18:01:43+00:00

Feminists don't believe women should be dating men at all, as to date men, is to aid the patriarchy.

This is why political lesbian feminists exists.

Sharp_Engineering379 · 2024-08-24T21:48:02+00:00

I think you left out the most obvious fact that male attention is cheap and plentiful. Men choose to compete for female attention, which offers women plenty of choices.

But the idea that women are comfortable with men failing or struggling to date and rationalizing it with its somehow natural that men “don’t deserve love” is ultra toxic.

Yes, that is toxic. And said in response to misogyny, it isn't said to men who are genuinely lonely and desperate to find a partner.

2024-08-25T01:16:19+00:00

There have always been men and women who never pair off.

pikecat · 2024-08-25T07:04:24+00:00

ancient humans mostly lived in monogamy and that monogamy

People live in a fantasy about history.

Ancient humans lived in groups where people were doing who they wanted, or could get.

Written history is written by those in authority who wrote about how things were supposed to be, not how people actually did things. The vast majority were illiterate, there were no gossip rags. Punishments for getting caught sleeping around.

The oldest profession is just that.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife." Is not a commandment because they imagined it might happen, it's there because it was happening.

Let's not go into Roman society, there are some amazing findings under Vesuvius ash, or all of the various cultures and their "fertility rituals"

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guys_rock · 2024-08-25T12:03:50+00:00

Feminists say this? I feel like a feminist would argue that dating is harder for women because of the incredibly low chance that they will be killed at Arby's on the first date.

bluehorserunning · 2024-08-25T16:48:34+00:00

I have literally never seen a feminist make the argument that it is ‘natural’ for human men to fight with each other over ‘females.’

Spurious comparisons of humans to other clades is the realm of manospherians, terps, and militant vegans.

It is absolutely true that some people don’t deserve love, and I include some women in that. Some people are just sociopaths. Others want to live a life of effective parasitism on another person. No one should have to submit to either thing, and most people, of both sexes, are better off alone than doing so.

The problem right now is that a LOT of men are 1)subscribed to this idea that performing masculinity in a way that is actively harmful, or at least not natural to them, is how to be a ‘good man;’ and/or 2)never were taught by their parents how to adult on their own, and/or 3)never lived with housemates in a way that forced them to learn accountability for their share of household chores, and/or 4) learned to do so, but are absolutely willing to sit back and watch someone else do it all, either by passive laziness or design, once in a relationship, and/or 5)sincerely seem to think that women are some non-human class of servant being that delights in drudgery and degrading sex, and/or 6)never grew out of the toddler’s conception of adulthood that they would get to do whatever they want, whenever they want, when they’re a grown up.

Responsible-Bee-3439 · 2024-08-25T16:56:48+00:00

When sex was only for marriage (or you'd get married if you accidentally knocked someone up), and you couldn't just divorce on a whim, everyone was happier.

VWGUYWV · 2024-08-25T22:59:25+00:00

They wouldn’t like it if someone pointed out that men are naturally much stronger and so it would only be natural if men ordered women around because what are you gonna do about it?

MarauderSlayer44 · 2024-08-26T14:17:51+00:00

I don’t disagree with your idea, I just think you’re misattributing where it comes from. I’ve never seen specific claims of this sort from specific people, but you could have at least made a claim about their passivity concerning the topic when it comes up, and how men could potentially perceive that as not caring about whether dating is hard for men. But nah, you gotta make a weirdly specific claim without specific evidence and make the whole point look dumb. Bruh.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-08-26T22:37:09+00:00

They're feminist, so that's toxic femininity.

MembershipWooden6160 · 2024-08-26T23:04:01+00:00

Dating for men is "hard" only when you follow the pre-written script where you should do all the hoops and a woman only needs to show up, while you'll still need to wine, dine and entertain her and she'll be the only deciding whether to proceed or not.

That's BS. Both sides decide whether they're interested or not. You should NEVER pay for someone's wine and lunch, or even a coffee in early stages. Once you split the bill to who ordered what, you are saving yourself from predatory and manipulative behavior. If a woman isn't interested or hasn't decided whether she wants to date, she won't be wasting your time because she's "investing" something as well.

Feminism didn't introduce splitting the bill and netflix and chill or other cheap variants in just about every large metro area among the young people in 2024. It's men who were successful at dating in years prior to that. Reason why they were successful? Well, those guys who subscribe to the idea that they'll need to foot the whole bill, wine and dine and entertain... are staying home, building their careers and will likely end up 25+ and virgins. At that point they'll have a hard time to initiate anything and it becomes a self-perpetuating loop where they're seen as weird and taken advantage of by women - and they'll be focused on "that one woman" who might not even reply to them. They better be exceptional with their careers at that point to have a decent shot and to be able to foot the bill and all, otherwise they'll have no selling points and all the liabilities. Some women are looking for unpolished diamonds and they usually aim at these guys who are socially inept yet have great career prospects - which is both a good and a bad thing for these men.

Guys who approach in a modern way will be texting dozens of women just for fun, they know women are giggling while reading all the Hi and other more elaborate messages on IG, tinder, TT, whatever. They know women can and will be manipulative and are prone to waste their time, energy and money - thus they'll go with low investment of both time and money. This way they'll eliminate moronic women who play games and will focus on women who actually want to date. They'll get to be more competent socially and they'll also get laid. This way they'll also find it easier to get into other women's pants in the future.

Overall, if you subscribe to "traditional" view, you're likely (but not surely) going to be very bitter and frustrated in today's dating world. If you subscribe to modern view of how to date, you'll not find it hard and you'll actually be entertained while dating, it's goinng to be an interesting experience. Feminism or feminist label among women means nothing in today's world because both self-declared feminists and anti-feminists will behave in their best interest and will utilize rights and privileges that former feminists fought for and achieved for them.

Oh and last, but not least... you never want to listed to a dating advice from a woman. Especially not from a feminist. They'll advise you to do what THEY want men to do and how they want men to behave to give them all the options. It only works if a woman already wants a specific guy who does it - and it's usually placing an additional, undue burden. Don't be that guy.

obviousredflag · 2024-08-25T11:26:56+00:00

First off, the “state of nature” argument structure went out of fashion after like 1800 because it’s stupid. Also, it doesn’t even hold up since we’re not lions and ancient humans mostly lived in monogamy and that monogamy was mostly through arranged marriages.

First off, biology doesn't go out of fashion. You cannot argue your way out of evolutionary facts. Today, we are as far from our behavior in our evolutionary past as we have ever been, and men still fight each other over access to women.

Intrasexual competition is not "toxic masculinity" it's the FUCKING ESSENCE of all sexually reproducing life on earth. It's inevitable. For men and women alike.

It's not hard to get a partner. It's hard to get the partner you want. It's hard to get as much sexual partners as you want as a man and it's hard to get as much commitment from the men you want as a woman.

AtlisArt · 2024-08-25T11:47:37+00:00

Feminists are just crazy, man hating, ugly women. No one wants to fuck them and they go mad, that's it. Why would you care what they "think"?

Wanderingwombat1902 · 2024-08-26T02:32:13+00:00

Idk. As a guy I don’t see anything wrong with this. That’s how the world works. You get what you deserve, sometimes you get a shit hand and sometimes you hit the jackpot. Some of it is luck but sometimes you should take responsibility for your situation. If you have time to complain about something you have time to solve it there is no point in complaining bro

Lovers691 · 2024-08-24T22:19:02+00:00

The reason why men struggle with women isn't because of provider stuff. It is because of looks, women generally find a smaller subset of men physically attractive than men do of women, so you will need to either improve your looks if possible or use other factors to make up for your deficiency in looks provided you are at least at her minimum looks threshold to not disregard absolutely. It isn't toxic masculinity, it is just how life is.

SadCahita · 2024-08-24T21:57:53+00:00

I agree with them that sexism is that natural state of reality and egalitarians are blind, just wish that they didn't pretend to be egalitarian

DankuTwo · 2024-08-25T05:21:23+00:00

Everything he humans do is “natural”….otherwise we wouldn’t do it. Genetics has shown decisively that men are less successful breeders than women, historically. This will never change, so there’s no point complaining about it.

Pathosgrim · 2024-08-25T05:49:59+00:00

You're giving feminists too much credit. Biology is a feature, not a bug.

Which-Inspector1409 · 2024-08-25T10:42:44+00:00

Maybe you should focus your attention on men who say it’s natural to be attracted to barely legal women. Someone saying dating is supposed to be hard really doesn’t matter at all.

Fabulous_HonestTea · 2024-08-25T05:45:58+00:00

The feminist idea that it’s “natural” that dating for men is hard is peak toxic masculinity

It is natural. Women don’t like men. There’s talking your way around human biology.

There’s two ways to mitigate this:

Be hot. The lion’s share of the features which define this were determined the moment the sperm hit the egg and the majority of men lost that cosmic roll of the dice.
Provide material or economic benefit. This arrangement shit the bed when women started outpacing men in college education in the 1970s.

That’s it. That’s literally all it took to completely turn women off to vast majority of the opposite gender: Educational and economic equality.

unbannableBob · 2024-08-24T23:16:27+00:00

In support of the OP I think this situation in dating is basically a prisoners dilemma gone wrong.

Arranged marriage is both parties agreeing to split the reward.

Men want to impregnate many many women. Women what to be impregnated by Chad.

The mid way is each man only gets 1 woman. And each woman gets a guy approved by her parents that arent genetically programmes to chase chad.

The feminist idea that it’s “natural” that dating for men is hard is peak toxic masculinity

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Title	The feminist idea that it’s “natural” that dating for men is hard is peak toxic masculinity
Author	Wanderingwombat1902
Upvotes	125
Comments	410
Date	August 24, 2024 9:35 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1f0g947/the_feminist_idea_that_its_natural_that_dating/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-feminist-idea-that-its-natural-that-dating-for.1528266 https://theredarchive.com/post/1528266