CMV: The fire that's burning dating down started with women unrealistically raising their standards. And men are fanning those flames with pumping and dumping.

Justwannaread3 · 2023-05-21T23:09:44+00:00

When I was dating around, I wasn’t intentionally dating “up” or “down” or “on my level.” I was just looking for someone I liked talking to and spending time with and was attracted to.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-05-21T23:09:13+00:00

The OP is missing a key point. It is men who have decided that there is a 'big picture', and in this big picture almost all men should get a woman and vice versa.

Women have decided they do not give a fuck about the big picture. If they meet a man whom they find attractive and whom being with makes their lives better, they may pair with him for so long as such conditions pertain. Whether this means they are only dating up, down or sideways is irrelevant to them. How many men this leaves alone is also irrelevant. Each woman gets to choose based on whatever standards she pleases, be they 'realistic' or not. Her life. Her choices. Everyone else can go fuck themselves.

dynospectrum7 · 2023-05-22T00:04:22+00:00

I know below average women who have slept with professional athletes. In her mind, that’s her level now. Even though it isn’t.

kayama57 · 2023-05-22T01:43:35+00:00

I don’t completely agree. For women, let’s say for the subset of women who want to have children, the stakes are excruciatingly high as to who their partner is and what set of behaviors and impact they are going to bring to life as a couple. A relatable pressure to date up aside from what you mentioned. It’s not unrealistic for women to understand that in order to raise children who will thrive in the world we live in they are going to need money, time in wihich to cultivate in their children the habits that will make them interesting and helpful to others, connections to help them navigate the challenges of professional life, and a whole hell of a lot of day to day help in the countless things that make the difference between a happy and peaceful state of mind and anything other than that.

Then we’ve got a bunch of generations of men who are more vocal amongst ourselves about being immediately concerned about our next orgasm and the potential envy or admiration of the men around us than with all the long plays that are expected to facilitate a happy couple’s relationship that can endure the tests of time.

Half of that phenomenon could be our own free will allowing us to prefer the dubious gratifications of a number of hookups, which is almost always inferior to what the guy would really like, over the very high alleged risk of devoting all of our time and resources to any one woman in particular who may or may not take what we now describe as a hypergamous leap away from us as soon as she has the chance.

Another side of the phenomenon is all the men who fall outside of eligibility with good reason such as because they are violent dumbasses, because they are not very brave when it comes to learning / doing new difficult things, because they are total slobs, etc are actually a boatload of people! This leads the women who are interested in raising families with relatively few legitimate prospects to choose from and a lot of stories that only serve to further reinforce that perception.

So I do see why you feel women commit to dating up instead of down. But I certainly don’t believe they are being unrealistic about it. I do also agree that men’s acceptance of pumping and dumping as a form of relationship building is severely damaging to everybody. Women do it too but we have the lion’s share of that phenomenon.

I think the problem is a combination of the constraints that nature places on women and the hubris of men who are not under the pressure of those constraints during the “prime” stages of our lives. We “all” want to be casanova and be with the most desirable girls, so the girls have “all” checked out from giving the time of day to anyone but the most desirable men. It’s an “all of us” problem, not an “all of them” problem

KneeGal · 2023-05-22T02:52:15+00:00

Women have always wanted to date UP. The difference is that in the past they were limited by their social circles. Online dating changed that by making their dating circle a lot larger. This isn't a phenomenon unique to "women in the western world" nor "modern" women.

Also it is funny how this sub will say women and men have different dating criteria but then will say that women dating up meaning men must date down. A women can date up in terms of social status and men can date up in terms of physical attractiveness which is a win-win for the couple.

Popular_Accountant60 · 2023-05-22T03:00:39+00:00

So why does it need to be fixed? Clearly it’s working or else women wouldn’t be able to have relationships. Or do you mean it needs to be fixed because specific people aren’t benefiting from it? You’re not going to convince a whole demographic to lower their standards just because some people can’t meet them.

grendalor · 2023-05-21T23:22:19+00:00

The problem with your theory is the word "unrealistic".

The market is the market. Your value in the market is what the market tells you your value is. Women are not "unrealistic" by exercising their power in the market -- the power that the market gives them by the feedback it gives them (ie, what "pricing" they can escalate to while still finding someone who will engage with them in the market).

Women's market power increased due to their financial independence of men -- both of men in their families and of husbands. When women are financially independent, they are under less pressure to choose any mate, and so can be more picky about who they choose, and choose based on different criteria than they did when they were under financial and social pressure to marry.

Added to that is the imbalance of desire (men are more desperate, sexually, than women are), which also pumps *up* women's value relative to most men's value in the market. That's because men's greater desire leads them to be more willing to enter a "market transaction" at higher prices (i.e, less of what they want) rather than not doing a transaction at all, whereas women, by contrast, are happier to not enter into a transaction at all.

So it's a combination of (1) women not being under as much pressure, which makes them more patient and picky combined with (2) men operating under the pressure created by their own desire, which leads them to approach the market with greater urgency and be less picky and patient. That double dynamic drives "up" women's market value relative to most men's market value (the exception is the men at the high tail).

And that's it. It isn't unrealistic for women to act on their market value. Men who are not in the high tail often look at women's behavior and say "this is unrealistic, she is expecting more than her value", but that judgment is always based on a so-called "objective assessment" of values rather than a market-based one. And the "objective assessment" of value is totally irrelevant. The only measure of value that is actually relevant is the market value, and women have, on average, a higher market value overall than men do, due to the two factors mentioned above which work to drive up women's market power relative to men, all else equal.

This will never change, short of women being subjected, again, which is not going to happen. Men need to get used to a situation where they are permanently disadvantaged in this area of life, and simply work around it, strategize around it in such a way to get the closest result to what they want out of a situation that has a structural imbalance in it that is not going to go away. But one thing men absolutely need to avoid doing is fixating on "fairness" or "unrealistic" and this kind of thing -- the market value is what it is. Accept what the market tells you and adapt.

Whiteramsmatter · 2023-05-21T23:55:33+00:00

I find it very interesting that the current model of relationships are highly toxic and it seems that nobody is really trying to do anything about it. Well... The few outliers that do are vilified regardless of gender, race, position, or opinion. (Don't care about that one person or another that might get brought up as a specific, this is generalization of the dynamics.)

A woman has to date up no matter what, dating an equal footing or (gasp) dating down is the single worst tragedy that could be fall an individual. The woman in question could be severely disabled, overweight, underweight, any host of mental disabilities, and it's immediately the "YAS QUEEN!!! get you that celebrity, professional athlete, ultra wealthy business exec, make that paper boo..." And it's treated as something that will happen without question or thought into the actual reality of the situation.

Men on the other hand are required to date down or they are themselves are vilified, God forbid dating an equal or dating up and the apocalypse that would bring to the relationship. Guys having a preference for what they find attractive and it's the instant label of sexist, misogynistic, perverted, bigoted, and most of all it's treated as shameful. Date down but not too far or you get labeled a predator or mocked for "slummin' it" by friends and family.

This is quickly becoming a no win situation on both sides, and there's no end in sight to these issues and nobody seems to actually have a reasonable solution to correct this course we are currently on. People have gotten too sensitive about their opinions and not willing to actually listen to find any commonality in what they are seeking. There's no listening to what is being said anymore, it's just waiting to speak opinions regardless of the conversation and the thoughts being presented or independent thoughts of one's own.

RedditAlt999 · 2023-05-22T01:18:10+00:00

I can't pinpoint an exact date when it happened, nor the definitive catalyst, but somehow, women in the western world decided that they would only date UP. Not

I can. The beginning of time. Women have always dated UP from a biological standpoint. They've needed men who could provide and protect. Going with the village manlet who couldn't hunt for shit was always a bad deal.

With women only dating UP, this naturally means that men are forced to date down which they don't want to do.

Again, they've always had to. The extent to how far down has grown it seems.

Which inevitably leads to a lot of pumping and dumping as men will accept a "lesser" girl if they just want to have sex = fanning the flame. The problem, while created by women, is still on both sides. Either way. It needs to be fixed or else the fire burns everything down.

The problem was created by women (sexual revolution) and has gotten worse because of women's choices. They could choose to not sleep with anyone unless he offered marriage, yet they all think they can make Chad/Tyrone commit by giving him some mediocre vagine at 1am on a random Tuesday.

Women control access to sex, men control access to relationships. Getting pumped and dumped is literally on women and women alone for choosing the wrong partners. Notice how pumped (the sex) comes before dumped (the man not committing). One party ALLOWS it by choosing wrongly.

neverendingplush · 2023-05-22T04:05:03+00:00

Hmm I think every man has been sold this idea that we all pair off in society and everyone gets their equal share of women so to speak. But that isn't life. No one is obligated to like you, and that's just what it is. Yeah I think a lot of women are rather delusional, but that's their choice to be so, is what it is. I'd much rather women have the ability to date whom they actually desire then be tied to someone like in the past for economic reasons. Besides a lot of men are missing the notion that the only reason a lot of men had an easier time dating in the past was the women had less options due to less methods available at the time for meeting people. And for economic purposes. Take those same women give them economic freedom and tinder, birth control, and most of our grandfathers would have had the same issues we have today. At least you have a better chance today of knowing where you stand.

SteveSan82 · 2023-05-22T05:17:49+00:00

All countries women date and marry up. Hypergamy is female nature.

RevolutionaryOkra679 · 2023-05-22T12:07:19+00:00

I choose to exacerbate the problem by ghosting women I meet on dating apps after I have sex with them just one time. I make it seem like I’m interested in a relationship beforehand too. Texting them about their day, asking future compatibility questions, etc…

What’s even crazier is that you can hit them up like a year later and they’ll jump right back into bed with you. The D.E.N.N.I.S. system works totally unironically

FakeNewsFredo · 2023-05-22T01:35:59+00:00

Social media did it. To be honest, I had NO IDEA that women craved the level of attention that they do. It's UNBELIEVEABLE.

Seriously, what will they do when they hit 40?

asdf333aza · 2023-05-22T00:11:03+00:00

1 out 3 men are virgins or go an entire year without sex. 66% of men are reportedly single while only 33% of women of the same age are single. Like the math aint mathing. A huge chunk of men can't even get ->1<- woman. They are going years without sex. Years without dates. These girls are sharing dudes. They even have Facebook pages in local cities called "are we dating the same guy". And those pages are actually popular and women are just now realizing they're dating the same dudes. And even after the realization it doesn't stop them from chasing the dudes or other girls from chasing him to.

Just like how the top top 10% of Americans own 50% of the wealth, the top 20% of guys own like 80% of the women. While 33% are just out of the dating pool all together due to rejection or not being viable. Haven't you seen those news articles complaining about how "there aren't enough college educated men for all the college educated women". Perhaps the articles about how there is nearly 2 female college grads for every 1 male college grad on some campus across America.

Which inevitably leads to a lot of pumping and dumping as men will accept a "lesser" girl if they just want to have sex = fanning the flame.

The list goes on and on. But you can't blame the majority of men for the "pump and dump" phenomenon, when 1/3 men can't even get laid the remaining bottom 80% is likely struggling to gets scraps left by the top 20%. 80% of men don't have the ability to pump and dump. They arent desired enough to pull that off. And the top 20% only have that ability because all women think they're special snowflakes who deserve the best even when they themselves are average at best or below average. Instead I would say men contribute to this issue by s!mping and pumping up these average girl's ego into thinking they are worth a guy who is out of their league. A completely normal girl has hundreds of dudes in her inbox. I saw a girls messenger a few times and I was in awe at the amount of thirsty dudes of all ages trying to talk to them. These lesser guys are inflating their ego to the point that they think they're God's gift to the world. That would be how I would say men are "fanning the flames" of this problem.

Safinated · 2023-05-21T22:52:39+00:00

Nope, it’s the fact that we don’t need to date anymore

63daddy · 2023-05-21T23:44:43+00:00

I agree with your overall assessment, except I don’t blame women. Societies around the world have been mostly hypergamous (women dating up) for most of recorded history.

A big part of the problem is we have consciously decided to advantage girls and young women in education through WEEA, no boys allowed programs, title ix biases, etc. We now send more women to med school and law school and despite the fact they are less likely to keep working, they still want to date up, but that’s demographically impossible overall.

I agree with you something needs to be done. Favoring women in education when they put their careers to use less so than men makes no sense economically and is inconsistent with hypergamous attitudes. We should stop so favoring females and also correct the biases in family law that also make men rightfully hesitant to marry.

Short of that, it’s perfectly reasonable that more men look at these biases and decide marriage isn’t for them. Having flings when possible makes more sense for many. It’s a perfectly rational decision, but it would be better for society overall if we addressed the biases, thus encouraging a more compatible dating arena.

Gundam_net · 2023-05-22T00:26:11+00:00

The cause is Tinder.

Willow-girl · 2023-05-22T12:18:59+00:00

I find it interesting that sex has become both more and less of a bargaining chip than it was in previous generations.

There was a time, not too long ago (my mother was girl of the 1950s) when women essentially traded their youth and beauty for a meal ticket. It was necessary to be married in order for a woman to have status in society, so most women grabbed the best man they could get, then hung on for dear life. I'm not sure if love or sexual attraction even factored into the equation all that much; having a comfortable lifestyle, children, and secure place in the female social matrix seemed to be the overriding concern. None of this was discussed openly, though, other than perhaps calling a woman a "gold-digger" if she was a little too blatant about her intentions. (It was of course desirable to marry into a higher social class, but you had to act nonchalant about it, I guess.)

Fast-forward 80 or so years, and women are no longer obliged to have a husband in order to have status and even children, and most simply go out and get their own. The "trades" happening nowadays -- the OnlyFans and sugar baby stuff -- seem to take place much more openly now; you pay a set fee for access. There doesn't seem to be a lot of finesse in the negotiations, but really it's the same old game it's always been, except that now instead of selling herself to one man for a large price, a woman might deal with hundreds or thousands for $5.99 a month (but she doesn't actually have to touch them, which is certainly an improvement over the old days).

Stickley1 · 2023-05-22T13:52:26+00:00

There’s something else going on here which is driving women raising their standards.

In the past, a woman needed a man. Socioeconomic forces meant that, even if she didn’t really like men, or was indifferent to them, or lesbian, or asexual, she needed a husband.

Today she doesn’t. So if you remove all the women who don’t like men, are indifferent towards men, or lesbian or asexual (and this really does happen to represent a significantly larger fraction of women than the corresponding same categories of men) then there’s an imbalance between the number of women seeking to pair up vs the number of men. That drives women raising their standards.

So for many of remaining women who sort of do want to pair up, and many are only lukewarm about it, it makes perfect sense to compete for the top 20% of men, and accept spinsterhood if she can’t get top 20%. Because spinsterhood isn’t a terrible outcome for her, compared to marriage to a lesser man ( in her mind, and maybe, in reality.)

In other words, the women “unrealistically” raising their standards aren’t being unrealistic at all.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2023-05-21T22:55:03+00:00

Can someone tell me when women decided that we will only date up? I think almost every woman I know missed that memo

Seeing as almost everyone around me are average people of average looks making 70 - 90k (with occasional outliers).... Dating average people of average looks making 70-90k

KayRay1994 · 2023-05-22T04:11:13+00:00

the whole “women have unrealistic standards” thing is a myth and literally any walk outside would show it - the major difference between now and the past is that now, you don’t have to necessarily be a provider to date women, and if you do want to be a provider, you’ll have to do more than just provide cause guess what - women can provide for themselves now.

The majority of women’s standards are flexible as long as you at least can provide for yourself, aren’t a slob and if you show her a good time (which varies from woman to woman - some love a chill quiet time, others like more lavish stuff and everything in between) - looks wise there is a minimal threshold, sure, but that’s still more flexible than many men’s minimal threshold and others factors can make up for looks far more easily.

The problem is y’all base your opinion on women based off models on instagram and no context dating app data (and dating apps make looks the main focus while taking away everything else - and for women, since everting else factors in, if the focus is looks alone the threshold becomes much higher, dating apps essentially tell women to view attraction the same way as men, and that’s where there is a disconnect).

pantsmerchant · 2023-05-21T23:02:11+00:00

Yes dear. It's all the nasty womenses fault. Now explain to me why everything you just said is not a steaming pile of sweaty self pity? I got lost after the bit about where you started typing..

Makuta_Servaela · 2023-05-21T23:22:45+00:00

Through the entire human history in almost every culture, women have been forced to date up (since women generally couldn't own property or live independently, while men could). Barely-People dating up to People. It's been pretty deeply ingrained in us that we must date up or suffer.

Now that we have (some) equality, women are allowed to choose their mates again finally. It knocks men down a peg, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

No_Cricket_2824 · 2023-05-22T00:18:36+00:00

😂 men want to be promiscuous especially when younger and our standards are the same. The ratio will always be 1:1 so I don't know you speak as if women are marrying the same man.

Lovers691 · 2023-05-21T23:13:24+00:00

huge swathes of women are competing for the top percentage of men = the fire.

While I do agree that most women desire the top percentage of men, most of them will settle down with their looksmatch or close to it because Chad and other men also want attractive women and Chad will pair up with those 8 and 9 women while the rest of us will date across our SMV +/- 1

VehementlyDrawn · 2023-05-21T23:42:22+00:00

Why would everything burn?

AFuzzyMuffin · 2023-05-21T23:58:57+00:00

All of this just goes back to standards and communication.

Too many men/women don’t have standards in dating and cause these issues, men staying with emotionally unwell women, women staying with men who have horrible intentions etc etc etc

Happy_Nuclear_End · 2023-05-22T02:52:40+00:00

Muh both sides, is the same argument the journos use on how men lack of financial success is hurting women prospects lmao.

Women choose their mates in the human species and blaming men for it is asinine. Women entire view is built on social media, social media is their standards, a fit guy is a men on steroids, a good haircut is a top hair genetics and a average guy is some influencer full of filters.

Men aways dated down, for us it do not matters is not a problem CONSIDERING the women loved or appreciated us back, but because they've as standards only the top men they won't love let alone appreciate us. They're locked feeling like they deserve more, a timing bomb that will explode and waste all your efforts and take half your things.

There's no two sides and things are already burning down, men are checking out society and the decline in birthrates will wipe entire cultures, there's nothing to be done, sit and relax, enjoy the decline.

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YearnsToDestroySun · 2023-05-22T04:24:46+00:00

Ya, I may start to date down until I reach my life's zenith where money isn't a concern. Then look for someone younger to start a real family besides just me and my son. Last two women was a date down, but it was nice,now that it's 3 years ago and I'm horny and lonely so I may do it here again this summer.

I can attract beautiful girls even with decent personality in my dumb town since I'm physically good-looking, but it's much rarer and much more competition to close the deal than the more unattractive women I get inundated with matches on dating apps. it's just career stuff I'm lacking having to sacrifice last 10 years for my son. just now I got an internship finally related to my degrees.

It stinks, but being alone just to wait for that long to meet hypergamous criteria is just annoying.

I read one YouTube comment I like, Mother Nature maybe on the female side for mate selection, but Father Time is on the male side.

vikingqueen111 · 2023-05-22T13:22:00+00:00

Men complain women don't have standards and complain when they do have standards

iassureyouimreal · 2023-05-22T14:16:02+00:00

Why shouldn’t women have high standards? We won’t meet them. Well some of us won’t. But it is what it is.

doggiedoc2004 · 2023-05-22T16:36:05+00:00

My friend this is natural evolutionary biology. Women should always try to marry up if they are are not already in the upper class. When an mammal is given an opportunity to achieve better evolutionary fitness, those that exploit that advantage have a better shot at reproducing. Men created the dating apps and both sexes will naturally use them to benefit their own goals to the max. Women who do not at the very least marry across are at a reproductive disadvantage.

I don’t think the fire will burn everything down. Women who don’t find what they want drop out of the dating market and be relatively happy and the incels and bottom men who loose out will be sated with porn and video games.

Be made at a society that has limited the opportunities for lower class men to be good providers without having to have a college degree or professional career.

Powell__ · 2023-05-22T16:43:43+00:00

Can’t pinpoint an exact date when it happened, nor the definitive catalyst

That’s because there isn’t an exact date when this started. Hypergamy is biologically wired into women. It’s always been an fact of life. Women didn’t randomly start wanting to date up, they always have.

SaltBurnsWhenHot · 2023-05-22T16:59:03+00:00

Women all want to date the same man, which is a rare commodity, and think they can do so because they got pumped and dumped by one in the past. It's the sexual liberation movement and hookup culture that caused this and now we are seeing swaths of older women past their prime complaining on tik tok about how they are miserable and alone due to their bad choices and the man they all want don't want them, instead the men they want desire younger more pure women.

gntlbastard · 2023-05-22T19:41:53+00:00

The men with options are fanning the flames with pump and dump. Most guys have either checked out or are sitting on the sidelines frustrated asking the question what else can I improve and how much is enough.

obviousredflag · 2023-05-22T20:27:09+00:00

If women only dated up and men only pumped and dumped women below them, then who is getting into relationships?

Why are couples overwhelmingly looksmatched? Why is assortative mating the scientific consensus? Who are all the average couples out there that you can see on a daily basis?

Are you pumping and dumping the women below you?

chikiinugget · 2023-05-23T08:46:18+00:00

What? For centuries women had to marry husbands who out earned them plenty because they weren’t paid for their labor. They were forced to date up. But you think a 100 years will fix the centuries of generational trauma and ingrained societal behaviors ??

Ok-Goose7939 · 2023-05-23T09:41:35+00:00

After reading the comments, I agree with those who say that society will either collapse or have to change radically in order to survive. In the near future this order will work. Expect problems by the end of the 21st century and into the 22nd century. Low birth rates will lead to the extinction of nations, and the collapse of the economy and states will do something about it. New World Order. I am sure it will be violent (classic). I am a pessimist, I do not think it can be overcome. Many people think it is only in Western societies, but it is also in China, where the population is expected to shrink to 50% +- , by 2100. So, enjoy what you have.

thrownthrownwu · 2023-05-25T15:06:52+00:00

I notice that when women said there's no good men and no men want to commit. Well, sure, you only want the top 20% and the moral attractive one are off the market and in relationships. The only hot men left on the apps are the assholes.

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