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[+][deleted] 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
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[+][deleted] 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]FrostAlive 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
That's a really big sample size.
[–]5ft11flip 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What was the comment?
[–]DRUNK_CYCLIST 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
i'm curious myself. i really hate this default men's arrest on domestic disputes. i have a child and several months ago my gf at the time decided that because i was breaking up with her she was going to tell the cops they i assaulted her and "make sure i never see my son again."
oh, and the reason i had to call the cops was because she was grabbing my arms and refusing to let me leave her apartment. once i told her i was going to call the police she put her hands up like she was going to claw my face and shrieked, "get the fuck out!!"
i left and called the cops anyway to give them my story just to be safe. they told me i wouldn't be able to go in and get my few belongings left behind until she calmed down. that i should wait until the next day or something because if she claimed i hit her, they would be forced to arrest me on standard illinois law.
[–]widdlemonster333 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Albeit not a good situation, at least the police were good enough to tell you how to keep you from being arrested! It probably did a lot for the situation when you called in and I think it is really good that you did.
[–]DRUNK_CYCLIST 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yeah, agreed. the cops were a help for once.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good cops, bad law, by the sound of it. The man would be arrested by default just because she claims violence? That's fuckin-A crazy.
[–][deleted] 285 points286 points287 points 13 years ago (116 children) | Copy Link
I guess those nine years don't really mean that much.
Wtf is wrong with that prosecutor?
[–]csgardner 190 points191 points192 points 13 years ago (74 children) | Copy Link
Given a world where a woman can accuse a man of a crime and have him put away for 30 years with no evidence, I think the prosecutor's point make sense. Basically, she had already gotten away with the crime of lying. If you charge her for admitting she lied 9 years later, then you are then discouraging her from telling the truth. Imagine if she had gone to confess and was told that she would be put in jail for 9 years for confessing that she lied. Do you think she would still confess? I think she might have said, "Well, I feel bad, but not bad enough to go to jail for 9 years." And that poor guy would still be in prison.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link
[–]diy_tripper 51 points52 points53 points 13 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link
I'm sure no one here disagrees that she should be in jail, but csgardner was pointing out that if this lady knew that the repercussions of coming clean would include a hefty jail sentence, she almost certainly wouldn't have cleared her father's name. Then he would still be in jail, and no one would know that he was innocent.
Is it unjust that she gets away with this? Fuck yes it is. Just another fallacy of the legal system.
[–]Apellosine 64 points65 points66 points 13 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
The problem with that line of thinking is that there is no disincentive for the person to lie about the crime in the first place as they have no repercussions if they are caught. They think that they may as well try it because if it works, woohoo, if it doesn't then they aren't punished.
[–]I_may_be_crazy 35 points36 points37 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
They do have repercussions if they are caught lying. She wasn't caught. She came clean. There is a big difference.
[–]aGorilla 16 points17 points18 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
That's an excellent point.
Don't charge them if they confess, but do charge them if you catch them without a confession.
It's not perfect (what is?), but it's probably the best we can do.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]tyciol 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's still possible to catch liars without confessions. Let's ignore human witnesses: what if you catch someone on video admitting that they lied about the accusation?
I'm going to run with the ball of my idea: make the court pay more money to false witnesses who confess right away as thanks for pointing out the ineffectiveness of the court system.
This will make courts more hesitant to convict people and look harder for evidence to lower the chances of false convictions.
[–]I_may_be_crazy 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's just about impossible to convict them based on testimony, but physical evidence would be damning. Maybe some sort of proof of the accused alibi...there are ways to convict. The shame is that anyone would be convicted of rape based solely on testimony.
[–]LogicalWhiteKnight 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Evidence that the accused is not guilty is not proof that the accuser is lying. The accuser could be mistaken, which shouldnt hold the same consequences as a willful deception. Just because we can prove the accused didnt rape the accuser doesnt mean we can prove that the accuser was not raped, or that the accuser lied knowningly.
[–]DanglyAnteater -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If the person was sent to jail based on someone's testimony, what is the likelihood that said testimony would eventually be proved false by anyone but the accuser themselves? IMO it would be negligible; unless DNA evidence somehow exonerates them, it will (likely) just be circumstantial against the original testimony.
[–]I_may_be_crazy 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The real problem is that anyone would be convicted solely on testimony.
[–]Fig1024 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
whether she is punished or not has no effect on women's ability to put men in jail on a whim. The punishment would only serve as warning to never tell the truth
So, punishing her won't solve the problem, need to change the way these cases are handled and require more substantial proof for convictions.
[–]diy_tripper 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link
While I agree with you, cases like this are circumstantial, and the person who admits to making false claims may not always get off the hook in the end.
I'm willing to bet that if a few factors of this case were different, like if the girl was five years older, and the man she accused of raping her wasn't related to her, there would be far more preasure on the DA to prosecute her. But then again, she may never have come clean about it, so we're back to square one.
[–]Apellosine 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
If we accept that false accusers should be prosecuted it would not have applied in this case anyway as the woman in question was well under the age of legal responsibility. What could be investigated however are the circumstances surrounding the original investigation/conviction and those involved. Without knowing the full facts of the case I can only speculate but there must have been more "evidence" than the say so of an 11yo girl at the time, especially to secure a sentence as long as he received.
DAs or QCs out here very rarely prosecute those who are found to have made false reports of this nature and even then only of minor offenses like "Making a false report" or some such. This is the issue at hand and a more stringent prosecution strategy would reduce the number of false allegations leading to less convictions of the innocent whose lives are more than likely ruined by the mere accusation.
[–]neightdog 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
false accusations are a crime
should we not prosecute crimes?
[–]WhipIash 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Not when they're committed by 11 year olds, imo.
[–]neightdog 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
i think a man's life trumps this
[–]Speedkillsvr4rt 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is but one of many
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
eleven year olds are exempt from the law?
[–]starbuxed 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
civil suit? is that a possibility?
[–]diy_tripper 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, but I believe a civil suit is a possibility; it just would be strictly monetary with no possibility of jail. So the father could try to get a portion of his legal fees recovered, but that's probably it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this point, though.
That's the justice system for you. Gray area, Gray area everywhere...
[–]RaveRaptor -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why I am saying she gets thrown in without the media being informed, but her being recorded by police. No one knowing she's in prison, but still having the idea that kind of scum can admit their crime and think they can get away without punishment.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I dont see any easy way out of this shit. Other than really...really being careful about relationships with women. Also, never get married.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]theskepticalidealist 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Its not misogynistic to call someone a bitch, or a group of women bitches. Its misogynistic to call ALL women bitches. Lets not forget that. This women after getting to 18 years old STILL left her father to rot in prison for an additional 5 years. I'd say thats valid grounds for calling her a bitch.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, but try telling SRS that ;)
[–]Villainsoft 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately an 11 year old (at the event) cannot be jailed for perjury, even many years later. False accusations are most certainly a serious crime, although not always treated as such.
[–]Pecanpig -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
One than the other, encurage them to tell the truth then discurage them from lying.
[–]sTiKyt 16 points17 points18 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You're putting words in her mouth. The prosecutor claimed it would reduce reporting of sexual crimes not that it would keep girls from recanting false claims.
[–]widdlemonster333 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was just thinking the same thing. Whi would recant a lie if I got them in trouble? (vs. Catch them in the act and get them in trouble)
[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Pragmatically, you're absolutely correct. Morally, that's fucked up nine ways to Wednesday.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
She let him spend nine years in prison, I don't think anything would encourage her to tell the truth.
I have trouble living with myself if I think I said something hateful to a family member or loved one. For days.
I can't imagine how you can sleep at night knowing your father is in jail for something you told people he did while he's innocent.
[–]tyciol 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I think the solution here may be:
If liars come forward, do not penalize them, but the courts must pay out the ass to compensate the man for making mistake.
If liars are uncovered without coming forward, penalize them, and the courts must still pay out the ass, but a little bit less (the savings gives courts incentive to uncover liars)
It sucks that there'd be little consequence to liars who come forward, but better that than they not come forward. Punishing courts gives them incentive to have better trials and only convict people where there'd solid evidence.
We can punish people uncovered lying in the process of trial or afterward, but if the case is closed and THEN they come forward, punishing that disinclines them to do it. I mean, they're pretty much doing it out of guilt when there's no reward for it.
Actually, revolutionary idea: if someone later confesses to lying in court AFTER the case is closed, pay them 1000 bucks, minus a % for each portion of the sentence they wait to admit the truth. In this way, people could gamble that they are convincing liars (as they will lose money if they are caught lying during the trial) as a means of testing the effectiveness of our legal system.
In this way, people who lie and beat the courts and convict innocent men could immediately admit that they lied and that the courts failed, receive a monetary reward and be lauled as heroes for pointing out the ineffectiveness of the court systems. You could even be friends with the guy afterward.
The objection here would be 'omg this rewards liars!' Well yeah, but it also gives courts (who should also be paying the victims 10-100x whatever the liar gets) an incentive to look harder for lies.
This would inevitably lead to pairs of people in cahoots (one playing victim and the other playing innocent) who would try to scam the court system out of money. That's a good thing. It would test the court systems and make it rigorous.
By putting cash penalties in place, people who are bad liars would not clutter the system, because if they did, the courts would make money off it. Only the best liars would present false cases, and these are the ones which would test the system best.
I agree, the courts need to pay the man compensation and it would have to be quite substantial. Also means the courts might be less willing to believe crap testimony, which the feminists will hate for obvious reasons.
[–]tyciol 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's the whole issue, we need to provide forces to compel courts to be more rigorous.
Here I put together my ideas on this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13ojt0/why_and_when_the_government_should_pay_women_1000/
[–]silverionmox 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So you say that we shouldn't have punishments for crimes because it might deter people from confessing?
Let's just not convict people based on the testimony of the accuser, shall we?
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I dont think she should be tried as an 11 year old, she was 23 when she admitted it, she left her father to rot in jail for 5 years more after she turned 18.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I cannot say she should be applauded for that, what if she had let him rot for another 10, 20, 30 years, what if he had been murdered in jail? (quite possible btw, he most likely was raped) Then she comes out and says she lied, we still should pat her on the head and say it must have been so hard for you and give here a round of applause? No way.
tell her nothing will happen.
and then throw her in the volcano.
"you said i'd be safe!"
"haha, yea... we lied. like you did!!"
toss. volcano swallow.
[–]NyoZa 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Naw, it should be more like "Ifyou falsely accuse, there is no need to confess, we will find out and send you the fuck to the slammer."
That is rather fucked up logic. That's like saying we shouldn't prosecute people for stealing cars because if they stole a car and got away with it, they might not confess to it later on if they felt guilty about it.
[–]rape_is_bad_mkay 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Does this work the same for other crimes btw? Because I think that's important here. If somebody claim they witnessed someone committing a murder and then 9 years later confess they weren't even there, what happens to them? Do they go free also?
[–]DerpaNerb 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I still think the better option is to punish false accusers. IF a proven false accusation had the potential for like 10 years in jail (I really think it should), then you would never, EVER see someone just casually say "If you don't I'll say you raped me".
It would prevent far more innocent people being locked up in the end... though yes, both options have a downside.
[–]TheRealPariah 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But that isn't what the prosecutor said. She was talking about people coming forward about sexual assaults; she was not talking about people coming forward about lying about sexual assaults.
Do you think she would still confess?
Yes. Because she knew when she confessed now that it was possible that she would be imprisoned for purposefully and unlawfully ruining another person's life.
"Well, I feel bad, but not bad enough to go to jail for 9 years." And that poor guy would still be in prison.
Yes. She might.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
At the very least the father deserves to shoot the bird at her whenever he feels like from now on.
The father deserves the state to provide him with a CRAP SHIT TON of compensation. If we arent going to prosecute the false accuser the least we could do is to give him monetary compensation
[–]captainmcr 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think that if you charge someone for lying, then people will be less likely to lie.
Does perjury have any statute of limitations?
[–]Amznaznsensation 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So essentially. We should allow people who lie and ruin another persons life to get away with that lie in the hope that other liars come forward? No. Lock them up, commit a crime (ruining someone's life over something you knew false) do the time. Though it does seem liars get a pass, look at big business...
[–]AusChamp88 23 points24 points25 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I know right. The inevitable rape and beatings he likely received in prison too. But it's cool, men aren't raped, that's crazy talk....
[+][deleted] 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]defendsjournalism 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This story misstates the reason the prosecutor didn't file charges.
"The news reports had it wrong, though (they’ve since run corrections to reflect this). Baur couldn’t have charged Kennedy with a crime even if she wanted to, because the statute of limitations had long expired."
Source: Daily Beast
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 13 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
The girl was 11 at the time. Honestly, I wouldn't charge her either. Still, I would just say she was too young to know what the consequences of her lie would be, not come up with some bullshit "discourage victims" crap.
[–]phukka 14 points15 points16 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I hope 23 year old her realizes that she no longer has a father. I would avoid that girl like the fucking plague. Oh, she's 11 and doesn't know better. I think children understand the concept of jail.
I wonder if the mother had anything to do with the accusation.
[–]YeahIsaiditbitch 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
to assume the mother didn't in the last 12 years is to be pretty foolish
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
She was 11 at the time but how many years after she was an adult did she still say nothing.
5th Amendment.
[–]tavernkeeper 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You want to make it a crime to not talk to police?
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]tavernkeeper 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
In America, you are never obliged to talk to the police unless they have a subpoena.
EDIT I am not a legal expert, so you will likely want to confirm this elsewhere.
The reason for this is that in America you have the right to not incriminate your self. Because it cannot be known in advance what crimes you may or may not have committed, it also cannot be known in advance whether anything you say could serve to incriminate you for some crime you're not aware of. Therefore, you are not obliged to say anything.
Genuine question: what about accessory cases? Like if you know someone murders someone and you don't say anything?
Or do you actually have to help, like, house them when they are on the run? Just curious if you know.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
No, I want it to be a crime to not talk to the police when you have evidence that will exonerate a falsely imprisoned person.
[–]tavernkeeper 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What if your testimony also incriminates yourself in some crime? Then you have the right under the fifth amendment to not give testimony. Given the sheer number of different ways one can be in violation of state and federal law, it is impossible to know ahead of time what testimony may serve to incriminate you. Forcing someone to come forward with testimony may be in violation of their fifth amendment rights.
In this case, coming forward with the truth may also serve to incriminate her for perjury and perhaps other crimes. Are you saying that the fifth amendment doesn't apply to her? Why not? I feel like my fifth amendment rights are threatened if we punish others for not coming forward with evidence.
So if I falsely accuse a man of murder, and he goes to jail, i can plead the 5th and dont have to admit it because it may incriminate me. Seems ridiculous.
[–]tavernkeeper 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You committed a crime and have the right to not incriminate yourself. It's like if you commit a robbery, you are not obliged to tell the police that you did it. That would be self incrimination and is protected under the fifth amendment.
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
She may have the legal right, but she shouldnt be protected if she does admit it. We shouldnt treat rape like some some type of crime that is different from all other crimes and bypass our justice system. Though in truth the problem isnt going to be solved if we punish false accusers, actually, it needs to be solved at the root. To get rid of this idea that women are always victims in every single circumstance and to stop allowing feminists to water down what rape means so it becomes meaningless and women have to take as much responsibilty of their actions as men do. That is what creates this culture of false accusation in the first place
[–]Baramordax 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
While I agree that an 11 year old doesn't quite understand what they have done, an older version of that same person surely does. It does make me wonder if it would be reasonable to set an age at which point you would be considered obliged to correct the errors of young age, and not doing so would from that age on count as a crime.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
5th Amendment pretty much negates any legal compulsion for her to come forward.
[–]Baramordax 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Not my country :) However, to take your 5th into account, wouldn't it be a matter of how such a law was formulated? Could it not be something similar to Good Samaritan Laws where some make it a duty to offer assistance? In this case it would be a duty to correct the mistake by some given age. For instance it could be a small grace period after you gain the vote to come forward, and failing to do so then makes it a new crime to not meet your duty of correction?
I'm not saying I'm an advocate for such a thing, it was simply something on my mind at the time. I'm interested in learning more about such a concept's workability however.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's not my country either, but the 5th isn't a law: it's an amendment to the US Constitution, and it specifically says that the government may not compel a person to testify against themselves. So no, you can't mandate that people retract false claims and in so doing open themselves to prosecution.
[–]Baramordax 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Not sure where I claimed the 5th was a law, but that's not important.
You would obviously only be compelled to correct the mistake during the grace period where no prosecution would be possible. After that it would simply become a crime to not have pursued the correction during this grace period. I don't see how that is testifying against yourself which opens you up to prosecution.
It might be workable as your formulated it. I simply don't know.
[–]Baramordax 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alright. Well, thanks for the input :)
[–]daoom 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
And at 11 I am sure she had help coming up with a convincing lie. Whom ever helped her along, including the police and prosecutors, are the ones need to be punished.
[–]plumbs201 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is exactly what I was thinking. Who put the idea into her head in the first place to accuse him of this?
[–]biggiepants 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She doesn't say what she says as an action against the father.
[–]Cronyx 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
She did it when she was 9, you can't really charge her with anything now for what she did as a child. Yeah, its fucked up, but I don't know what the solution is. Charge her maybe for every day after her 18th birthday that he spent in jail?
She continued to do it as an adult for 5 years after she turned 18. This isnt solved by punishing these women, it runs much deeper than that, but lets not pretend she was just an 11 year old and all those years of lying about it are irrelevant
[+]tavernkeeper -9 points-8 points-7 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yea, lets prosecute a young woman for something she did when she was eleven. What exactly will that accomplish?
[–][deleted] 26 points27 points28 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
a lot more than locking someone up for something they didn't do...
[–]Cyhawk 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think we're barking up the wrong tree on this one. Seriously we should find out why she lied in the first place. Then, if it happened the way I think it did, go after the person who had her lie.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
My mistake I thought we prosecuted people for breaking the law, not what it accomplishes
She's a woman?
[–]TheCyberDon -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am now enraged grrrr
[–]TAlazz 36 points37 points38 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
10/10 would rage again
the law is retarded.
if person A accuses person B of something person A's word is worth absolutely nothing in terms of evidence because it's a textbook conflict of interest
ex. if I know someone called john and I have a dispute with john in a court of law my word should be worth NOTHING because of the conflict of interest, of course I'm going to say whatever I think will et John in jail because that is in my interest. therefore my word should have ZERO WEIGHT in terms of evidence
this shit is so basic yet innocent people end up in jail because of it?? FUCKING ABSURD
[–]widdlemonster333 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was reading in another thread similar to this about "affirmative defense" (which is basically how rape cases are set up - burden on the defense to show that allegations aren't true ....basically. Honestly, you would have to read up in the concept more personally since I'm new to it myself). It is used in other cases besides rape and isn't the standard we think of but isn't terribly uncommon.
Not saying I agree with it, just sharing things I'm learning.
because innocent until proven guilty just isn't good enough
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree with what your saying but you really shouldn't use such a term.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Language police on patrol.
[–]Remerez 98 points99 points100 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
This is proof enough that rape accusation is guilty before proven innocent. If the burden of proof was on the accuser I think instances of this would be much more rare.
[+][deleted] -31 points-30 points-29 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
11 year old is upset about the divorce and apparently directed it out on her dad to punish him. There is very limited information to base an opinion on... but i'd say you got it wrong saying this, "This is proof enough that rape accusation is guilty before proven innocent."
Fear not, the legal system, prosecutors, elected officials, firemen or whatever do not want this to happen. This guy got an incredibly shitty deal but has nothing to do about rape accusations automatically being guilty.
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
11 is old enough to know that lying to get anyone sent to prison is wrong.
Source: parents got divorced in a traumatic way, never made a false accusation to get anyone in legal trouble. I was 8.
[–]snecko -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Not in a legal sense. That's what the age of majority is for. They might know it's wrong, but they won't fully understand the consequences of their actions. Unless they're a sociopath.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If an 11 year old commits a crime, they can be convicted and punished as a minor.
[–]LogicalWhiteKnight 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well guess what, shes 23 now. She had 5 years to come forward and tell the truth after she turned 18. She should be punished for those 5 years.
[+][deleted] -9 points-8 points-7 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If the world was trusted to run on 11 year olds testimonies... which it is not. Very sorry to hear your parents split as you were a child. 99.9% of daughters would never make up a story to accuse their dad of raping them. We gotta keep this real.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In this case her testimony ran his world for 9 years...
[–]theskepticalidealist 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She was 23 god can we remember that?
[–]WinterFresh04 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If the world was trusted to run on 11 year olds testimonies
Have you been living under a rock or something?
[–]neightdog 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
WHEN KEEPING IT REAL GOES WRONG
[–]nlakes 421 points422 points423 points 13 years ago (102 children) | Copy Link
Better not lock away people for giving false testimonies then. Might detract from real witnesses of crimes coming forward.
Or do we only modify the law when the poor womyn have to be held accountable?
[–]rogeedodge 28 points29 points30 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
should also lock the father back up... to deter real rapists...
[–]BobDorian 81 points82 points83 points 13 years ago (81 children) | Copy Link
Locking away people for giving false testimonies might also deter people from coming forward later on.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (73 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zanju 110 points111 points112 points 13 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link
As long as you're telling the truth, you have nothing to worry about.
...ehhhh. I'd say that's too much faith in the system.
Still, this girl should absolutely be charged for taking away nine years of a person's life.
[–][deleted] 43 points44 points45 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Not just any person, her FATHER. Because she was disappointed after her parent's divorce. That is all kinds of messed up.
[–][deleted] 42 points43 points44 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You have to wonder what role if any the divorced Mom played in this.
[–][deleted] 35 points36 points37 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Had not even considered this. But I suppose not many 11 year olds think of punishing their father by sending him to prison for rape. Makes you wonder about the kind of little girl that can do that to her own father.
[–]Dog_This_is_Colby 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its called parental alienation syndrome:
"Among the many areas of concern for social workers working with divorced or separated couples with children are two related problems: parental alienation, or the efforts on the part of one parent to turn a child against the other parent, and parental alienation syndrome, or a child’s unwarranted rejection of one parent in response to the attitudes and actions of the other parent." Source: http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/102708p26.shtml
[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It is very easy for a parent to poison the mind of a young child.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]ElectricLoveMuffin 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
So you would punish the jury? Or maybe the prosecutor, for what? Just going through with a case which he believed to be true? Maybe the defense attorney? He was the one to fuck up? No? This is a really tricky issues. Should someone be held accountable? I believe so, but there is a lot that is wrong the the justice system as it currently stands to be worked out first.
[–]Zanju 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Punish the liar, reform the broken system.
[–]Cardplay3r 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Punishing the girl is just passing the buck around.
Sorry, what? She's the one that started all this by accusing him, then let him rot 15 years in jail, well beyond the mind of a 11 year old. She could have freed him anytime, at 16, at 19, at 21...give him a few more free years after she put him in prison.
In what universe would she be some kind of scapegoat if punished?
[–]Slurrpy 18 points19 points20 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I'm a male that was raped as a child. I've been called a liar before and laughed at because of it so I just keep it to myself. I will get no justice because as a man I "can't" get raped. How fucked up is that?
[–]Cardplay3r 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Very fucked up, sorry about what happened to you.
[–]Slurrpy 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Some people just can't understand and it hurts but there isn't anything I can do to change what happened. Just gotta keep on moving forward I guess.
[–]Cardplay3r 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Only thing I can advise you is to try and accept what happened, I mean really accept it instead of fighting it
[–]Slurrpy 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Can't change the past. Gotta focus on the present although my brain likes to fuck with me
[–]Cardplay3r 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah I've been struggling with the past as well...and projected future. You might want to look into meditation, yoga...it really helps stop your mind (just tried simple meditation myself)
[–]Slurrpy 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I do use music and meditation to relax after problem nights or just stressful days. It works but only for short periods of time for me.
[–]BlackKnighter[🍰] 32 points33 points34 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It makes me rage, but another reason is that if people are punished for admitting their perjury, those people won't come forward. This leads to innocent people staying in prison.
[–]vacantstare 17 points18 points19 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I really wish the media took a role in public shaming.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh..... They do. Boy do they, go get on a soapbox and tell the world David Duke is a great guy. Lol, trust me, they know exactly how to Shame-and-blame. They just don't want to do that for you, because you're not in the protected class.
[–]myonefriendisblack 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It seems simple to me, pass a law that gives a certain period of time for all current rape accusers to recant their accusations without penalty. Once this period is up, anyone found to have lied about a rape gets sent to prison. Realizing that if they do lie and are found out, most rational people would avoid lying in the first place. Now, this is not to say that if someone is found innocent of rape in the first place that the accuser gets in trouble. There would then have to be a separate trial for his/her perjury.
[–]Cardplay3r 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Good point but that's not why she's not being punished though. In these rare cases I'm sure a deal can be cut with the prosecution for a minimal sentence.
But the same reason is given for not punishing perjurers that are caught on rape issues
[–]BlackKnighter[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, on the face of it, its because it would 'discourage real rape victims from coming forward'.
Realistically, I think this is one of those de-facto rulings, like grabbing the nearest guy to pay child support so the public purse doesn't have to.
Personally, I'm torn. Part of me wants 'Send her to jail!', but part of me knows that she would be less likely to have come forward if jail was a possibility. I do know that I think the state should compensate this guy out the ass for his wrongful conviction.
[–]ew73 26 points27 points28 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The truth:
Father says, "No, I did not rape my daughter."
And still, 9 years in jail.
[–]Affably_evil 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"As long as you're telling the truth, you have nothing to worry about."
"The Daily News reports her father, Thomas Edward Kennedy, denied the allegation but was convicted by the jury and sentenced in 2002 to more than 15 years in prison."
Yeah, about that truth thing...
[–]joeynana 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
I was wondering myself if this was meant to say "will discourage women from falsely accusing of rape"? I have a friend who is in jail at the moment who has been falsely accused of rape. Even the woman's mother had testified that her daughter has a history of accusing men falsely in an attempt to extort money from her victims. It's a slippery slope, it's (rape) often hard to prove, yet justice for women who have lived though something so tragic must also be served. It seems as though there is always going to be innocent victims albeit rare, and education for both men and women is most likely the best solution to avoid any situation where a claim of rape can be made.
[–]BuddhistSC 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
It's better for 100 guilty people to go free than 1 innocent person to go to prison.
[–]Cardplay3r 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Honest question - why? I thought I believed that too but now I can't find a good reason to...
[–]Nepene 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Your ratio shouldn't be that bad, so many guilty released and so many innocent in jail. But criminals tend to repeat their crimes. If you're a bad person and the police are watching you're closely you'll tend to get caught.
It's not too catastrophic if a guilty man is released. If he is dangerous to society he'll likely be back in jail soon enough.
[–]Cardplay3r 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That..seems to be overly optimistic, especially in sexual assault cases where report and trial rates are very low to begin with. And there's always the counter argument that some innocents are going to suffer for this person to get caught again.
I'm not exactly advocating for innocents to be kept in jail so that guilty ppl don't get released, just can't think of how to argue against it objectively.
[–]Nepene 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
With sexual assault or any crime you could certainly test it out more. Interview friends of the person, ask if they be a rapist.
It's not like you have to let oodles of rapists go. If there's some issue you should have more police investigation. The worst rapists leave a trail of bodies behind them.
As a reason why it's bad for rape victims, if being accused of rape means you will be ruined forever regardless of whether you are guilty or innocent people are encouraged to clam up and stop the victim talking.
[–]BuddhistSC 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Because letting 100 guilty people go free does no harm directly, whereas putting an innocent person in prison does a lot of harm directly.
[–]Cardplay3r 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
True but it could be argued that there's a very good chance it will do more harm to more than one person in the near future, and it does almost direct harm to the victim(s) seeing their tormentor released.
I guess the best argument against it is that once you start going down that path you start on a very slippery slope with too many uncontrollable variables.
[–]BuddhistSC 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
It's the difference between shooting a person in the head and letting another person walking into a train. When you shoot the person in the head, you're responsible. If you let them walk into the train, it's their own fault, you merely stood by in negligence. One is direct, one is indirect.
I don't want to be responsible (the government is made of the people in one way or another) for innocent people going to prison. That is the government directly ruining a life. Allowing a guilty person to go free, though, even if they recommit crimes, is not directly the fault of the government.
Another argument is this: If you imprison the innocent man, harm is CERTAIN. If you free the guilty man, harm is POSSIBLE. So if you ere on the side of freeing men, you will average out less harm.
More important, I think, is direct vs. indirect harm. Failing to prevent person A from harming person B is not nearly as bad as harming person B directly, because there are other factors that might prevent person A from doing harm. You're only partially responsible on the one hand, but fully responsible on the other.
edit: And this doesn't even get into the much more important area of human rights (imprisonment is a violation, etc), but I don't even want to bring that up here.
edit2: I should also mention that "seeing your tormentor released" does not cause harm. If you are trying to punish someone for the purposes of revenge, then you are misguided, and any harm due to a lack of revenge is your own fault. Revenge is a logically invalid standpoint.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
No. Its to not dissaude people who HAVE lied about a rape claim from coming forward. If a girl knows she is going to go to jail, she probably wont admit that she lied. This man may have been jailed for 9 years, but it is better than 20-30
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 27 points28 points29 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Looks like a sustainable business plan
[–]Atheistus 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
as long as the woman feels better it is alright, i guess.
It sends a message to men aka potential rapists everywhere that they will get into trouble if they ever raped a woman.
[–]imitator22 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I can't help but feel like i would spend that year plotting my untraceable revenge.
[–]Gene_The_Stoner 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The issue is that if you get found out between steps 2 and 4 you're kinda fucked.
Or should be. Oh god you should be.
[–]WhipIash -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Did you read the outline part in the picture? It's not to get people to come forward admitting to lying, it's to scare off actual victims.
[–]DerpaNerb 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So we should stop putting people who have gotten away with murder in jail if we catch them? I mean, we wouldn't want to dissuade other people from coming forward and confessing.
[–]colorless_green_idea -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Not the same. Murder is something that can't be undone. But you can at least free a man who has been wrongfully imprisoned.
What?
You can't just bring back the years spent in prison and baggage on release (have fun finding a job).
It's the same concept. The person got away with the crime.
[–]DerpaNerb 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Okay, let's change it to kidnappers then.
Should we not punish kidnappers so that they don't get punished if they turn themselves in and release the child?
I mean, I see why you wouldn't want to dissuade people from recanting their false accusations... but this is a band-aid fix to something that shouldn't even be a problem in the first place.
Punish false rape accusations super harshly to dissuade people, and actually use due process in rape trials so people who still falsely accuse won't get a wrongful conviction.
The problem is that people are being sent to jail on what is OBVIOUSLY only circumstantial evidence... which goes against the legal precedent for almost every single other criminal trial for any other crime.
[–]Cardplay3r 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Read the text man. The DA clearly said it's so women won't be put off from reporting sexual assaults. Has nothing to do with self admitting perjurers.
[–]DancesWithDaleks 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Just a point: I don't think prosecuting people that reveal themselves to have been lying would prevent actual rape victims from reporting it, but one could make the argument that it would deter women from revealing that they had lied.
It's definitely shitty, but one of the few ways that a false rape accusation (especially one that happens days after the supposed crime and is based almost entirely on a testimony) is to have women come forward. So it's almost the lesser of two evils: we're dealing with women that lie about rape. If we prosecute the ones that committed a crime, do we risk fewer liars coming forward?
I'm seriously asking because I would really like there to be a punishment for the crime of reporting false rape but I fear this would deter people from coming forward about their lies.
How about we work on not putting so many innocent people in jail? I mean, it sounds like it's often a her-word-against-his, and though that sucks for real victims, under no fucking circumstances should that alone put someone in jail.
[–]Surfing_magic_carpet 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you. Punishing this girl would say "Making false claims will be punished" therefore people should be leery of filing false charges. We don't punish victims of real crimes by trying them in court, we should punish willful filing of false charges, especially ones that result in convictions.
[–]darklight12345 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's a double whammy. Rape is a mental crime as much as a physical one.
Basically many women who know their rapist, or are at a disadvantage to the rapist (think boss employee, rich versus poor) think that the charge won't be believed. In their not so sensible post rape mindset, the idea of being persecuted if the rapist gets off or if they are not believed is already there. Adding in actual laws that further this belief can have a HEAVY negative feedback.
I agree that these incidences should be prosecuted, but that they need to be done so carefully and be "off the books" in that no specific law should be made for it and instead relying on things like perjury or public admittance as evidence. This is not just me and my thinking of rape and how it works, but the thoughts of a former rapee i know as well.
[–]Dog_This_is_Colby 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
it could be argued that any victim of assault or battery suffer both mentally and physically. Please explain why the act rape should be held to a different standard.
[–]darklight12345 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's a matter of the level and the overall effect. Assault or Battery, while possibly leaving some mental scars, comes nowhere near the same level as the effect of rape.
[–]Dog_This_is_Colby -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I am sorry if I am bothering you, but I'm just seeking clarification. So, a woman who has been battered by her SO to the point where she fears for her life and that of her child (children) and fleas to a safe spot like a shelter where no men are allowed does not suffer on the same level as a woman who has been raped. At least according to your statement. May I inquire as to when you became an expert in PTSD? Because I would also like to know on your scale of suffering where soldiers returning from combat fall. Does watching your best friend get blown up by jumping on a grenade to save your life fall above or below rape? Wait, was that a nonviolent date rape or full on stranger-in-the-alley rape? I'm just getting so confused so hopefully you can clarify please? Thank you.
edit:spelling
[–]darklight12345 -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Stop being bitchy. Your comment was overall assault or battery, not specific. Of course there are levels to everything. and the whole PTSD soldier thing? where the fuck does that even come in. Your own damn comment was just about assault and battery.
Stop being a fucking idiot and either make a competent argument and stop using that shit or just stop talking.
[–]Dog_This_is_Colby -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I asked for you to clarify because you made a very objective statement. You stated that assault and battery does not result in the same level of suffering as rape. You reply again with Ad Hominem and Deflection. The reality is that all three suffer from PTSD. The truth is that all three have just suffered the worst experience of there lives from their personal perspective and all three deserve to be treated for their suffering. It is absolutely asinine for you to make blanket statements about a subject which you obviously have no training yet alone a basic understanding of. Especially when it comes to matters as sensitive as this. I suggest that you educate yourself on such matters before you make such grandiose statements. edit:spelling
P.S. You might also want to look up Socrates Postulation before discerning what a, "competent argument," is.
[–]samarye 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
How would a punishment for false rape testimonies deter women who are/were really raped from coming forward?
Someone who had been raped but knew there wasn't much physical evidence might worry that they'd be punished for trying to pursue a case against the rapist.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not arguing anything here. This is just one possible answer to a question multiple commenters have asked.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]SamTheEnglishTeacher 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bang on.
Apart from not pressing charges.
I suspect she may have told someone and the person may have told her 'wtf mate, get him out'. But the hard-hitting investigative journalist didn't appear to dig very deep. I wonder why some articles have nameless authors...
[–]Peter_Principle_ 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
She was twenty three when she came forward, which means she was an adult for five years before she was moved by "guilt" to confesses. Maybe nine year old her didn't understand the consequences of her actions, but I guarantee 22 year old her did.
[–]Workchoices 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Really the prosecutor should be charged for pursuing a case that obviously had no real evidence but the testimony of an 11 year old liar.
[–]theskepticalidealist -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I dont get the last part. she may have been 11 but she grew up! She waited all those years until she was 23 to admit it! At ANY point she could have freed him
[–]Xanthan81 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Somehow, they think that if you charge a woman for making a false report on rape, that will make real victims say, "Gee, if they locked her up, maybe they won't believe me & I'll go to jail too!"
Doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's their reasoning.
[–]drakeblood4 -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The idea is that a woman who testifies and is falsely proven incorrect could be held accountable for having testified. The threat of criminal charges against them would keep them from coming forward. It's a poor idea, and technically not applicable (i.e. having your testimony incorrectly proven false isn't the same as coming forward and admitting your testimony is false), but at the core there is actually a bit of logic.
[–]DerpaNerb 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No, there really isn't logic at all.
The only way someone would ever be punished for accusing someone about rape, would be if that accusation was PROVEN to be an intentional lie. It's not like every time they don't get a conviction they say "well, she must have been lying". (In saying that, it goes both ways).
[–]drakeblood4 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Flawed logic is still logic. A false dichotomy is a logical construction, the same way that that one bridge that had ten foot waves whenever it was hit by a light breeze was a physical construction. You're right that it's unlikely for a person to be accused just for seeming incorrect, but with something as touchy as rape the capacity for someone to be put under heavy criticism just for testifying is pretty heavy (especially considering that it's defamation per se to accuse someone of rape both because it counts as unchastity and a crime of moral terpitude).
Look, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just suggesting that at the very least you go to the effort of trying to understand the perspective that people you disagree with are coming from. So often on this subreddit I see things dissolve into a circlejerk of dehumanizing those we disagree with, but I think we should take some time out to realize that the vast majority of people who act against equal rights and mens rights do so out of ignorance and disinformation, rather than actual maliciousness.
Isn't that exactly what he just said?
No, it would deter people from giving false testimonies. It's not like every non-conviction means it was false... the FRA still has to be proven with the same standard of evidence.
If I go out and murder you, and then get away with it for a few months... do you think it would make sense for them to say "We aren't going to charge derpanerb, it might make other murderers not come confess".
There is no defending this ladies position.
[–]megazen 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Locking away people who make false abuse allegations deters people from doing such a terrible crime!
[+]Tattycakes -11 points-10 points-9 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If someone actually admits to lying, then you can lock them up.
Girls should never fear being accused of lying just because nobody believes them. Men do get away with rape and child abuse, especially to young children within the home, and especially if the mother takes the man's side.
Guilty men walk away simply because there's no conclusive evidence either way, and women should not be afraid to still come forwards and tell the truth if something bad happened.
[–]rensin 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What reality do you live in? I downvoted you because your spewing the Same logical diarrhea that lead the west here over the past years. Rape is horrible and atrocious but also quite rare and there's no need to distort the idea of innocent until proven guilty so that women can "feel safe".
Jesus.
[–]Tattycakes 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I have no idea what you're talking about. I believe in fair representation for men and women, victims and accusers alike. When a person accuses another person of rape, in the absence of any conclusive evidence, its one persons word against another. Even if you can prove that sex took place, you are still left debating the issue of consent.
I don't think its fair that innocent (usually) men are accused of rape and dragged through the mud without defendant anonymity (but this varies by country). False or even genuinely mistaken accusations ruin lives. I also don't think its fair when rapists aren't convicted due to lack of evidence and the victim is treated as a liar, however rare this may be.
Do you not agree that falsely accusing someone of a serious crime is bad? Normally you can't prove they lied but if they admit to it, don't you think they should be punished? (In the absence of any evidence that they were coerced into confessing). And don't you think that real rape victims should feel safe to make their claim knowing that they won't face any backlash if people don't believe them? The law isn't perfect but there are ways to minimise damage. Do you think these ideas would make the current system worse?
How am I "distorting the idea of innocent until proven guilty so that women can "feel safe"?
PS: down votes are for posts that don't contribute or troll, not just because you disagree.
[–]ultragnomecunt 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is a policy problem. Unless it's revealed to be aimed at facilitating women/harming men, it transcends gender.
The crux is that they make a harm/benefit balance. It is assumed, due to the faith in the executive/judicial, that false testimonies like this one are an exception, meaning that they should have been identified and discredited by the police/courts before they have an impact. When such a false testimony does go through however, the ratio of the reasoning is that it's better not to prosecute because it removes almost all chance for redress later on. It's also thought to have reverse-floodgates effect, meaning that it will affect other such exceptions at the detriment of the innocents.
It's completely fucked up but it's aimed at helping the innocent at the expense of prosecuting the guilty. In other words, they are giving up the possibility of punishment of the guilty in exchange for the possibility to help the innocent. It's an application, somewhat flipped around, of a common tenet of criminal law (Blackstone's ratio).
It really sucks but it is also hard to go around it. It's basically a flawed response to a flawed situation which shouldn't exist in the first place.
And 23 when she admitted it. Was she still a child when she was 18? Or when she was 20? Or 22?
She did not correct it as an adult, she waited 5 years after she became an adult by law. How long would she have had to continue to lie about it before you think she should be considered a terrible person? 20 years? 30 years? 60 years maybe? And I like how your post sounds like you're trying to say that its bad for both of them. Yes, Im sure it was real hard lying all those years knowing you put your daddy in jail who was probably raped by the most vicious convicts (as we know convicts HATE child molesters/rapists/murderers)
women
FTFY
[–]darklight12345 -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
As much as I actually agree with the sentiment, it's also true in many ways. Rape is as much a mental crime as a physical crime and depending on class, personality, and other factors many women can have the idea of "they'll never believe me". This especially occurs in rapes where the victim knows the rapist. When you add on the fear of being prosecuted if the rapist is found not guilty, which is what many women will fear in their harmed state of mind, to the fear of not being believed many rape cases are not going to get reported.
[–]Penultimate_Timelord -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Except that women being afraid to report rape is actually a very, very common issue...
[–]defendsjournalism -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thats interesting although they also quote her as saying..." “I have no idea what to believe.”"... really? Even if a women specifically says she made it up, maybe he still did it anyway. Amazing! She also said..."“Kids recant, and then they’ll recant the recantation,” Baur said. She also didn’t want to, because to this day, she says, “I have no idea what to believe.”.... and this as well ..."The day after the verdict, back in 2002, Casandra Kennedy went for a walk on the beach with her mother. She confessed that she’d lied about the whole thing, she told her mom. But the next day, the girl changed her story again, mom said nothing, and dad went to prison for 10 years".....seems like this is even a worse set of quotes than the original.
[+]Phallic -30 points-29 points-28 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
It's a shame that a comment this bitter and misogynistic is voted to the top of a thread that actually has a very valid point.
If you're a moderate men's rights advocate like me, seeing comments like yours just discredits your own argument. It tries to turn it into a vicious "us vs them" and no doubt now you'll see me as part of "them" just because, apparently, I don't hate women enough.
You need to deal with your nasty streak, r/mensrights, it really doesn't do you any favours.
[–]will4274 20 points21 points22 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not really sure what your point is. His first sentence seems (to me at least) to be a reasonable analogy. Is it not?
The second may mock SRS slightly (with "womyn") but it calls out the lawmakers, not women as a whole.
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 13 points14 points15 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
no doubt now you'll see me as part of "them" just because, apparently, I don't hate women enough.
You're conflating two things: your feelings toward women, and your particular way of responding here. It's entirely possible to disagree with the top post without becoming antagonistic about it.
I'm not in disagreement with the point you thought you were making. I just don't want you assuming the only possible reason someone could respond negatively to your comment is that you "don't hate women enough" without at least examining your assumption.
[–]Lecks 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
That comment is not misogynistic, for fuck's sake. Why do people like you insist on broadening that term to near uselessness?
You know what harms r/mensrights? People like you, who see hatred and contempt where there is none so you can call yourselves 'moderate' and feel better about not taking a stand.
[–]Phallic -5 points-4 points-3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is just indicative of how fucking far gone a lot of the people on this subreddit are.
Venom, loathing and malice are seriously of no use in the project to bring greater attention to anti-male discrimination.
But it must feel nice to vent among like minds, I guess.
[–]Lecks 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I couldn't agree more. Which is why I'm so astounded you insist on labeling the slightest mention of women as misogyny, if your goal is equality then you have to learn that talking about inequality is a necessity.
You're perfectly allowed to have issue with language, tone or approach, but shouting "MISOGYNY" at every turn is not only counter-productive but downright harmfull. If we can't even speak openly amongst ourselves without being labelled as hatefull, instead of debated on the points we raise, then what chance do we have of reaching a wider audience?
[–]Bodertz 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I assume your problem is with the last line only?
[–]johnmarkley 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, I'll see you as part of "them" because if you actually believe that saying "Or do we only modify the law when the poor womyn have to be held accountable?" out of anger at inequalities in the legal system is "misogynistic," I doubt there's any sort of serious disapproval of sexism against men that you would find acceptable. And because people who come here and whine things in the vein of 'no doubt now you'll see me as part of "them" just because, apparently, I don't hate women enough" have a fairly consistent track record.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
At what point does X amount of years in prison = worse than a non reported rape? 25? 50? this is ridiculous.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Don't forget the multiple rapes and beatings he was likely subjected to in prison as a known sex offender.
[–]MexicanGolf 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, don't make assumptions. It can be six thousand or it can be zero, speculating and guessing on this in order to further your point will do nothing but undermine your stance as a sensible fucking individual.
likely
[+]MexicanGolf -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Uhu.
Not just a sex offender, as a PAEDOPHILE. She was 11. The only thing he could have done worse is murdered her. Convicts HATE child molesters, he would have suffered the worst kind of hell in there. Its really sad.
In a feminists mind NOTHING is worse than rape so it doesnt matter.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
[–]DanGliesack 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just to be clear--my guess is the reporter misunderstood what the DA was saying.
This girl made the accusation when she was 11, and completely got away with it. The reason she was caught lying was because she confessed to lying, and freed her victim from prison.
If you were to charge her, it would discourage other people in similar situations--where they want to come clean and release an innocent person--from coming forward. It's entirely possible the DA said something like "we donmt want to discourage other girls from coming forward" and the reporter misinterpreted it. I think it's sensible not to prosecute this girl.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 21 points22 points23 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
How about sentencing her to community service with some kind of men's legal aid group? This kind of sentencing happens all the time with other offenses, at the judge's discretion.
[+][deleted] 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Had she even been a little bit older I might agree, but 11 is way too young to be held accountable for that shit when she's the one who came forward.
In that case--and particularly bearing in mind that the "punishment" I'm talking about is aiding in legitimate social justice, not something punitive like imprisonment or a fine--how about holding her accountable for any portion of the last 9 years, since she waited until she was 20 before coming forward?
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm having trouble seeing a consistent direction with where you're going. If you want the victim (dad in this case) to choose, but the victim thought imprisonment was appropriate, that would entirely work against your earlier point about why false accusers shouldn't face any punishment. Now instead of "what about people who'd stay locked up because the accuser doesn't want to do community service" it's "what about the people who'd stay locked up because the accuser fears the victim wouldn't be willing to just let it go".
Then, about assuming the woman realizes the enormity of what she has done etc: that line of reasoning could be used to excuse any criminal who shows remorse. Even if your test for the necessary amount of remorse, is that they have to admit to a crime which would otherwise have gone unnoticed, the legal system does not work that way. People who turn themselves in do not escape their sentence. At most it is a mitigating factor, and even that is often not the case.
The point about her being 11 years old, and therefore blameless, makes nearly 100% sense if she admits to her crime shortly after committing it and no further harm is done (other than the lingering damage to his reputation from a rape accusation in spite of it having been invalidated). As time passes, and she grows older while her father remains in prison, the extent to which her crime is diminished by her original age is reduced. People are charged as adults while they are legally minors all the time. By waiting until she was 20 and he'd been in prison for 9 years, she shows a degree of culpability, and some would say it is total. The amount is up for argument, but I think it's very difficult to make a case that she is completely free of blame by that point.
[–]DanGliesack 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's a straw man to suggest that anyone thinks false accusers shouldn't face punishment. They should, but they should be freed of that punishment in cases like this one, where they are confessing to a false accusation without evidence pressuring them to otherwise. That would provide the most sensible incentive system.
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's a straw man to suggest that anyone thinks false accusers shouldn't face punishment. They should, but they should be freed of that punishment in cases like this one
I don't think anyone was suggesting false accusers should always be free of consequences. I haven't seen that. But you say it's a straw man that anyone might think a false accuser shouldn't face punishment and then immediately give a specific example of the type of case where you, yourself, think that.
where they are confessing to a false accusation without evidence pressuring them to otherwise. That would provide the most sensible incentive system.
I have a comment higher up where I show how this would incentivize women to use false rape accusations, and later recant them, when they want to harm or discredit a man. I'm sure nobody would do that if they weren't already so inclined, but this certainly increases the likelihood. As far as incentives, that should explain why your reasoning goes astray. The overall argument for letting this particular lady go only holds together in this specific case because of her age at the time of the offense, which some people feel excuses her from responsibility for anything that happened at the time and in the subsequent 9 years.
[–]wanked_in_space 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The question is who coached a child to accuse their father of rape.
[–]OculusMortis 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Bullshit, we don't allow people to get away eith perjury if they come forward and admit it, nor do we let off dishonesy cunts that lie about other crimes. Why do we need to exclude rape from the normal processes of the legal system?
[–]DanGliesack -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Is it really just rape, though? If I was in jail for any crime that a person wrongfully accused me of doing, I would want the system to say to that person that in a case like this one--where morality in the absence of evidence compels you to confess to a lie--you won't be punished.
[–]Jazzeki 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
so basicly an 11 year old can get away with anything i'm guessing murder includded because we can't hold them acountable for their own actions?
NOT an 11 year old though. She still lied up until she was 23. Lets not forget that.
[–]samarye 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
The women who really have a true rape testimony shouldn't have a reason not to come forward if such a punishment was put in place.
I said this above, but someone who had been raped but knew there wasn't much physical evidence might worry that they'd be punished for trying to pursue a case against the rapist.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not arguing anything here. This is just one possible answer to a question multiple commenters have asked. In Havoc88's case, "why should she be afraid of whatever outcome that results from her coming forward?"
[–]OculusMortis 23 points24 points25 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Except failing to prove guilt would not make it a false claim, there would have to be positive evidence the rape claim was false; just like any other crime. Why do we need to exclude rape from the normal processes of the Law?
[–]Jazzeki 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
bingo.
nobody is suggesting á system where it's either the guy or the girl who goes to prison. it's not a case of either or.
it's simply that if we can prove that person 1 raped person 2 person 1 goes to jail. can we prove person 2 lied person 2 goes to jail. if we can't prove what happened nobody goes to jail.
severity of punishment is less of a deterrent than the probability of getting caught
Its kind of a stupid reason for not punishing her. The real reason to avoid punishing her is that it will stop lying women from ADMITTING it. The reason given is more women who were raped will be less likely to come forward, but under the circumstances this is like saying that they aren't going to punish a falsely accuser, otherwise it might STOP other women from falsely accusing! It doesnt harm real women who were raped from coming forward.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The prosecutor here in Cowlitz County is a joke. This is just sick, and in my hometown even.
[–]Pantsyr 18 points19 points20 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
What gets me the most mad is not so much the false charge that got him imprisoned, nor his bat shit selfish offspring that sent him there - but the utter absence of any sympathy for the father whose life was quite bluntly stolen. Where's his justice? Where's the media outrage? Where indeed is any comment from the wronged man himself? After this in his shoes I would never so much as even speak to my daughter or ex wife again.
[–]Gene_The_Stoner 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is tiny little AP blurb.
[–]Pantsyr 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fair enough.
[–]rifenbug 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hell, 9 years, whats another 5 or 6 for murder on top of that.
[–]GladiatorBill 18 points19 points20 points 13 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, cause NINE years of that guys life is a small price to pay! No big deal, right guys? :::facepalm:::
[+]MexicanGolf -13 points-12 points-11 points 13 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, on the other side of the "fence" there's an enormous group of women who's had to sit there and listen as their rapist gets a "not guilty" verdict. Life sucks, get over it.
[–]GladiatorBill 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
You're an idiot.
[+]MexicanGolf -10 points-9 points-8 points 13 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Why is that exactly?
[–]GladiatorBill 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
One cruel injustice does not justify another.
[+]MexicanGolf -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Didn't say it did. I just brought perspective. Go and read the rest of the thread and you'll notice a disgusting lack of it.
Fact of the matter is this: The system sucks for both parties, so it is really annoying to see fucking adults act like it doesn't.
[–]GladiatorBill 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Okay, super, I didn't say anything of the sort though.
[+]MexicanGolf -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Actually you sort of did. I am sorry though, I may have assumed too much about what you were saying, I shouldn't have replied in the manner I did.
Actually, fuck that. You're the dickwad that insulted.
[–]GladiatorBill 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well then I'll offer my apologies for putting up my guard so quick. But I actually know a little bit about that biz and it's mucked up all the way around, and I hope I never lose my sympathy for either side done wrong.
[–]MexicanGolf -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, I do too. I haven't lost sympathy for either side, but this is /r/mensrights and all that I am doing is "informing" some of the fact that injustices go both ways, because it seems far too forgotten sometimes.
[–]GladiatorBill 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I'm actually a SANE nurse, I've done rape kits on girls that I knew would have no case. It hurts, but it hurts BOTH WAYS, I hate to see a man's life ruined when he was innocent too.
[–]MexicanGolf -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What do you think happens more?
I don't think it matters, neither situation is right and because one happens more doesnt make the other okay. The fact that they put this dude away? I get it. Big time. Wouldn't bat an eye at it. BUT when home girl comes forth and says 'ya I made it up' and No charges are brought forth!? Wut!?
Well here's the thing; it wouldn't help. She'd be punished, yeah, but it would send the message to others in a similar situation to keep quiet. I would rather see her go free than have him stay in prison because she's too scared to come clean.
So women can accuse a man with no evidence and the man can go to jail for 10, 20, 30 whatever years and then she can just admit it and have no punishment. That is what you call justice?
Is there such thing as evidence? How the fuck does the legal system dismiss evidence over verbal accusations. But then again the legal system was never fair
[–]Maythefrogbewithyou 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Reminded me of the trials were fathers were accused of raping their daughters, after there daughters all of a sudden had "repressed" memories surface. That shit tore families apart and I don't think any therapist served any penalty or time after implanting thoughts and memories into young women.
Agreed.
According to the American Psychological Association, it is not currently possible to distinguish a true repressed memory from a false one without corroborating evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressed_memory#Criticisms
[–]AloysiusC 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not a purpose of the law to "encourage" people. That idea is an abuse of the law and sets the ground for oppression. Next, it'll be seen as encouraging when the male is sedated during trial.
[–]Voctr 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Holy shit is this woman serious? Charging her might discourage women from TELLING LIES ABOUT RAPE in the first place. If I were the father I would no longer consider her a daughter and sue her. She deserves to rot away.
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
How about the possibility that false rape accusers might get people to take REAL rape victims less seriously? What if they become afraid to come forward because they know that so many women abuse the system since they face no repercussion for false allegations?
Oh wait, sorry, that doesn't really matter. All that matters is that a select group of power hungry women have the ability to ruin a man's life.
[–]wasniahC 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Playing devil's advocate here, your initial statement contrasts with your overall view on this matter. If they punished false rape accusers, it wouldn't make real rape victims be taken more seriously. Not punishing them doesn't make real rape victims get taken more seriously, either; the people reporting it falsely make them get taken less seriously, not the punishment.
They aren't going to be afraid of coming forward because people falsely report without consequence. That just doesn't make sense. "Hey, all those people can accuse somebody easily without being punished for it, even if they are lying.. I don't stand a chance if I'm telling the truth!"
I sympathise with your views, but the logic is off here.
[–]EeeeevilMan 16 points17 points18 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
This makes me as sick as the rest of you and there's no question this woman deserves prison time, but honest question, guys:
If we send people like her to prison, won't that virtually guarantee that most false accusers never admit their crime? I mean, does anyone seriously believe this woman would've admitted her lie about her father if she was facing real prison time?
Sending false accusers to prison, as much as they deserve it, won't help the accused. This problem has to be dealt with at the beginning, before the wrongful convictions happen in the first place.
[–]silverionmox 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Making a false accusation fucks someone's life up and perverts the course of justice. That's serious harm both to an individual and society; we mete out punishment to people who do harm, why not in this case?
[–]EeeeevilMan -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
If you were serving a 20 year sentence for rape that you didn't commit and your accuser came forward after a year offering to recant as long as she wasn't charged, do you really think you'd give a damn about what harm it would cause society not to charge her?
In case of wrongful conviction, charging the accusers sadly can do more harm than good.
The only way to prevent the harm is to fix the system so that we don't get so many wrongful convictions and don't end up in this situation in the first place.
[–]silverionmox 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If we send the clear message that making false accusations are a grave crime, people might think twice before doing it - preventing the problem at all.
If you assume that wrongful convictions are common enough to base general policy on it, why bother with a justice system at all?
I agree, and one element in that is that false accusations are wrong, unjust and a wast of time and money.
[–]EeeeevilMan 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Wrongfully convicted getting released from prison > Guilty accuser getting punished
That's all I'm saying.
It's just my opinion and everyone's free to disagree with it. But I seriously doubt anybody who disagrees with the above would continue to feel that way if they were wrongfully put in jail. Sometimes the only choice we have in life is to pick the lesser of two evils and that's the unfortunate position our biased and broken justice system has put us in when it comes to false rape accusations.
And I don't agree with the deterrent aspect. If deterrents worked that well, no one would rob banks or murder, because those aren't crimes you generally get to get caught and walk away from. Yes, for the sake of argument, it may deter SOME false accusers if they know they would definitely go to jail (although I personally doubt it). But it will also assuredly keep a few false accusers who may later regret their crime from coming forward and clearing someone's name or getting them released.
And personally, I'd rather a hundred false rape accusers walk free than one person stay in jail when they're innocent. If letting the scumbag accusers walk free will encourage a few people to confess, then I say let them walk (as much as it DOES disgust me).
[–]silverionmox 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Making people think twice before wrongfully accusing someone > undoing a fraction of the damage in a fraction of the cases.
And personally, I'd rather a hundred false rape accusers walk free than one person stay in jail when they're innocent.
But what you suggest is going to make many more people risk false accusations (there's no penalty anyway), and as a result much more innocent people go to jail. It's hard already to come forward and say "I was wrong", let alone "I made it up".
[–]EeeeevilMan 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But what you suggest is going to make many more people risk false accusations (there's no penalty anyway), and as a result much more innocent people go to jail.
We just disagree on that point. I think you're (unfortunately) more likely to get more men out of jail by giving the false accusers a free pass when they get remorseful than you are to add just a little more risk to making an accusation in the first place. Because the women already know they could go to jail if their story doesn't hold up in the first place or if the man has an alibi or whatever--and they still do it. And women do sometimes get charged when that happens, though not NEARLY as much as they should (which should be always). I doubt knowing they'll go to jail if and when they change their mind will do much to scare them out of it. But I get what you're thinking.
And for the record, it does make me sick that I'm sitting here arguing for letting false rape accusers off the hook. This shit shouldn't happen in the first lose.
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If we send people like her to prison, won't that virtually guarantee that most false accusers never admit their crime?
A couple of years back there was an alcoholic who joined AA and took it seriously, and as part of his "apologize to the people you have wronged and offer to make amends" steps, he apologized to a woman he'd gotten away with date raping, many years earlier, while they were in college. Upon receiving his confession/apology, she pressed charges. I didn't find out what happened with that case after that, but I know there was a lot of debate among AA types about how that step should be interpreted.
The argument against what he did--or rather, against why other people should do it in future--was that his action did more overall harm than good, by not significantly helping her and by hurting himself. I think people were suggesting to re-interpret that rule as "offer to make amends as long as it won't create further harm".
I don't recall anyone making the argument that he shouldn't be punished because it would deter other criminals from voluntarily confessing. He admitted his rape knowing full well there was no legal defense against his going to prison for it. And unlike the woman in this case, he didn't even need the incentive of getting someone innocent out of prison when they were in year 9 of a 20 year sentence.
[–]EeeeevilMan -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
That's a different type of situation, though, and I'd agree he should be charged in that case. And as was said, his confession didn't do nearly the good that getting someone out of prison would.
But in cases where someone has been wrongfully convicted of a crime? Yeah, it's shitty, but if the only way to get those people out is to let the accuser walk, then let the accuser walk.
If I were in prison for a crime I did not commit, I think my priority would be getting out. I don't think it would be a comfort if my lawyer came to me and said, "Well, your accuser offered to recant her testimony but the prosecutor wouldn't agree not to charge her so she's clamming up. But hey, there's still a snowball's chance in hell the prosecutor will charge her anyway if we go to him and you might get off after that hilariously unlikely scenario."
I think I'd rather get out.
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If nothing else, it would also establish flat legal precedent of the right for women to press false rape charges with impunity, which would make it harder for anyone to credibly argue that it doesn't happen.
[–]servohahn 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The law should be applied in this case as it is in all other cases: lesser sentences for those who admit breaking the law and more severe sentences for those who don't. This would still incentivize admitting to the crime while simultaneously deterring people from doing it in the first place.
You'd be right, though, if you predicted some women still would not come forward if they knew they could be punished for it. However, I think it pales in comparison to the number of women who will go ahead and make a false claim because they know that there's no way they'll get punished for it. In other words, I think that more men will spend more time in prison for rapes they didn't commit even if more women aren't admitting to a false rape claim out of fear of punishment.
[–]themountaingoat -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I do think you have a valid point about people who voluntarily admit that they falsely accused someone (although I still think they should be sued). I think if they are found out not through admitting it themselves they should be punished though. Of course, if we didn't have such ridiculous laws making it easier to convict for rape we wouldn't have nearly this problem in the first place.
[–]servohahn 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Besides prosecuting false accusers, another way to handle a problem like this is to, you know, demand that proof be given during a rape trial in order for it to result in a conviction.
[–]themountaingoat 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What a crazy idea.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Engage SRS mode/
A woman's (or, in this case, girl's) word IS physical evidence! Stop victim blaming and rape apologizing!
/SRS mode
[–]servohahn -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Two steps ahead. I didn't suggest that there be evidence. I suggested we demand proof.
We're supposed to demand proof, unfortunately in rape cases when you say that you want proof in the form of physical evidence you are accused of victim blaming. For any other crime you can be critical of the evidence before considering it to be proof, but for rape cases, don't you even think about it.
They claim if the women has to give evidence it could result in him getting off. Guilty until proven innocent is what these feminists want, and it doesnt matter how many men they need to throw under the bus to make that a reality
[–]servohahn -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not feminism's fault that people are shitty. This is a gender related issue but it just happens that the people in the position to do the screwing over are women in this case.
[–]lukedotv 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
absolutely ridiculous
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's shameful
[–]captainmcr 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wow this woman needs to be charged for taking away nine years of an innocent persons life.
[–]SirSmff 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So fucked up. It's bad enough he was in prison for 9 yrs for a crime he didn't commit but he had to serve those years as a child rapist in the eyes of his fellow inmates. Lord knows what happened to that poor man while he was locked up.
[–]Holybasil 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Placed in the protection ward I would assume. Reserved for informants and people who committed abominable crimes.
[–]CMOS222 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
We should all get together and organize a legal fund to sue people like this. Raise a big pile of money, and anytime someone goes to jail because they've been falsely accused of rape, make the money available so that they can sue the accuser.
[–]SamTheEnglishTeacher 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I wonder if he'd sue his own daughter. I suppose I may be under-estimating Mericuh.
[–]gurch -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Except that then anyone convicted on testimony alone would claim false accusation and try to sue, even if they knew they were guilty.
[–]Nothing_Witty 19 points20 points21 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Guys, as much as I'm totally against false testimonies, I just want to point out that this woman was 11 when she made these claims. That is to say she was still in the developmental stages that allow her to think of others above herself, and look at both sides of an argument. In addition it is likely that at 11 she did not fully grasp what would happen to her father, and the legal implications of her false testimony. This may not be the best example for your cause, as much as there are many.
[–]SamTheEnglishTeacher 22 points23 points24 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
What about when she was 18, or 21?
[–]BlackKnighter[🍰] 21 points22 points23 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Hell, what about 13? 15? I knew exactly what I was doing at these ages.
[–]Nothing_Witty 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
And did you do anything so mortifyingly awful as sending your father to prison before that? How can you judge how you would feel if you never effected someone to that extent with a lie? And how can you judge how you would feel if you have never had to fear the legal repercussions of what you did?
If you did, I would be very interested to hear about your experience.
[–]BlackKnighter[🍰] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No I didn't send my father to prison on a whim. Because I was a relatively balanced rational person who would never do something so horrifying for a trivial reason. I understood at those ages that actions have consequences.
[–]Nothing_Witty 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sounds to me like you grew up in a safe and supportive home, please don't assume everybody did the same.
[–]Nothing_Witty 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Oh of course she is not totally free of blame, but it is also hard for children to face mistakes made, I would imagine that she was afraid of what would happen when she told the truth. While this obviously does not excuse her actions, it puts them in perspective, I think it's a human thing to hide from our mistakes. She told the truth vaguely at the point when she was developmentally an adult.
As much as 18-year-olds are in many ways adults, I feel that the way they cope with their errors is one of the ways they are still very young, but obviously this is a personal opinion and really holds no bearing in a legal discussion. I just know if I put my dad in jail with a lie I would be terrified, that is a huge mistake.
She was not a child when she was 18, she was not a child when she was 22. If 18-23 year olds are still such babies still then we shouldnt hold them accountable for other things.
[–]Nothing_Witty 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There has to be a strict legal terms for when someone is considered an adult in the eyes of the court. I was merely arguing that developmentally and psychologically her actions make sense. I'm not saying that it is okay, or excusable that she did not come clean sooner, I was just trying to give a more nuanced look at the case. When I posted the majority of the thread was ad hominem attacks rather than a discussion of the issues raised by the article, so I was trying to humanize her to the audience or at least give a potential explanation for the psychology. I think put in her shoes the majority of people would behave the same throughout the teenage years (I would like to emphasize the "I think" in this sentence, this is my opinion there are no case studies to support this, but I do think it follows psychologically).
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
copypasted from an earlier reply:
[–]Nothing_Witty 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Allow me to paraphrase from my response to a similar post. I do not think she is free of blame at all, but I also believe that the way she behaved was not unpredictable in any way.
First off I am not inclined to condemn a 13-year-old, any more than I would like to condemn an 11-year-old, she is still very young at this point, and most likely terrified and ashamed of what she did.
Teenagers are selfish creatures, so as much as her actions are morally reprehensible, I don't find them to be out of line with a teenagers developmental stage. She did say in her interview that she told the truth out of guilt, so I would surmise that it had been building to this point for a period of time as she aged and started looking outward instead of inward.
This of course is my reading of the situation based on a rudimentary understanding of childhood development. I would want a much more in depth article before drawing any actual conclusions. My point was to be careful with your condemnations, because currently as a movement you have a lot of potential to gain support from both sexes but not if you demonize an 11-year-old girl. (I know some of you have no interest in support from women--at least that's the impression I've gotten, I would be happy to be wrong--but I wouldn't exclude anyone if what you're looking for is legal change)
And that as a child her actions (while not excusable) are not as bad as that of an adult, so your time may be better spent on publicizing those cases. After all your problems are with her instinct to cry rape (which were most likely taught to her, that's not something a little girl does on her own), the fact that it is possible to convict someone on rape charges without substantial evidence, and women using this as a threat against men. This was a little girl lashing out to hurt her father, take your criticism off of her and on to the system that taught her this was an acceptable way to act out. (I would not argue that for an adult, for an adult I would say they should have stopped acting out and grown up, it is not okay in any circumstance).
Sorry if that's jumbled, I would be happy to clarify any points made.
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
First off I am not inclined to condemn a 13-year-old, any more than I would like to condemn an 11-year-old, she is still very young at this point, and most likely terrified and ashamed of what she did. Teenagers are selfish creatures, so as much as her actions are morally reprehensible, I don't find them to be out of line with a teenagers developmental stage.
Teenagers are selfish creatures, so as much as her actions are morally reprehensible, I don't find them to be out of line with a teenagers developmental stage.
I've seen a few comments like this and they really make me do a double take and make sure I'm not missing something, and keep raising this question for me: you must be aware that here is in fact an entire juvenile justice system and that offenses aren't dismissed just because someone's a minor. However flawed that system is, I don't think you could possibly think the whole system should be thrown out, but I can't see another way to reconcile the statements about minors having no responsibility for consequences. While that has happened (legally) I think the age at which it is seen as acceptable is considerably lower than 11 or 13 years old, although I may be completely wrong about that.
currently as a movement you have a lot of potential to gain support from both sexes but not if you demonize an 11-year-old girl.
I'm skeptical about that (I think the people who would be swayed by it are already in acknowledgement of the problem), but if that were the case, IMO it would be sufficient incentive to let this particular case go. I think her age should be a factor, if not to the same extent as some.
But it is extremely troubling to see the way people are so at ease with false rape accusations having no consequences for the accuser if they are later voluntarily confessed. This would be a huge exception for perjury.
[–]Nothing_Witty 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
However flawed that system is, I don't think you could possibly think the whole system should be thrown out
I didn't mean to imply that, that is not what I think. I don't mean to say that she deserves no consequences, I mean to say that she does not deserve as harsh of consequences as an adult who did the same thing, and does not deserve to be demonized, I think your focus in this article would be better placed on the fact that as an 11-year-old this was something she even thought to do. It was a taught behavior, which, in my opinion, is the worst part in terms of MRA which is the subreddit.
I don't think (and I thought I said this, but it was late, so I could have not, my bad) that it should be without consequence, especially not for adult. I do think this woman should be punished but I would argue with counseling to prevent situations like this. If it were an adult who did it I would still argue for counseling but I would not find jail time to be an unreasonable consequence (minus the fact that jailing an individual often times does little to rehabilitate them and is not cheap).
Basically what I was looking for was a more nuanced discussion of the issue rather than harsh comments at a child who at that age was most likely acting out of what was taught, and fear. I think there is something wrong with that being taught, and I do not think it should be without consequence, but considering her age I am cautioning you all against hateful comments that will alienate people from your movement.
Edit: I read through my last comment, I had deleted a section on my opinions on what the punishment should be and left only "her actions (while not excusable) are not as bad as that of an adult" to say that I did not think her actions should go without consequence, sorry if that was unclear.
[–]theskepticalidealist 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
But she isnt 13, she was 23!
[–]Nothing_Witty 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I was adressing the argument made before that she should have come clean sooner. I was arguing that a 13-year-old, while older, should still be treated as a child.
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A 13 year old is a child, we're talking about someone who was 23.
[–]Nothing_Witty 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I am not convinced you read my previous comments on this thread (and I'm not sure what you expect to come from posting pretty much the same comment 3 times), or the article posted that was not in a red block. I am talking about when she originally lied, and I quote:
Now 23 years old, Kennedy says guilt prompted her to tell police in January that she lied as an 11-year-old
So no I was talking about someone who was 11, and scared. I am talking about a system that taught her this is okay. I am saying she should not be the one taking all the heat here, but whoever taught an 11-year-old it is okay to cry rape.
Edit: I reworded a few things. I try to be clear but I know my writing can be jumbled.
[–]iownacat 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This makes me want to vomit.
[–]rbcrusaders 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why does it make more sense to do this then to discourage people lying about this shit? What happened to not blaming the victim?
[–]Ninjetti 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also, if people come clean on unsolved murders, they shouldn't be prosecuted. I mean, come on, that would just discourage them from turning themselves in.
[–]fantastic_lee 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
two things (which totally conflict but whatever)
1) isn't statute of limitation on most criminal offenses 9 years?
2) i don't see how pressing charges against something an 11 year old did will help anything.
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
She was 23. She continued to lie for an additional 5 years after she reached 18 and considered an adult and capable of being tried as an adult for crimes they commit.
[–]fantastic_lee 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
i meant the crime was committed by an 11 year old. i'm pretty sure if you leave me in a room with an 11 year old girl i could make her say most anything. accepting your own mistakes as an adult isn't an easy thing to do when you've been ingrained into believing this lie (or letting yourself believe the lie?). i'm not an expert but i'm pretty sure there have a lot of cases where people allow themselves to think what they're doing is alright even though if they faced the facts they would know it's not (like the victim in an abusive relationship), and with that factored in with age, i don't see how prosecuting her would do anything.
in my eyes this is a no-win case.
(sorry if i didn't explain it well, just got home from swing shift -_-)
a final thing, legally i don't think prosecutor gets absolute say in choosing whether or not to file charges but that might differ depending on the location.
[–]theskepticalidealist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
What if it were murder? What if someone were on deathrow? What if the guy was executed? If we hold her responsible at 18, then the fact that she left it another 5 years means she lied for another 5 years as an adult. It wasnt like she lied at 11 and then the rest of the time can be ignored, she continuously kept up the lie until she was 23!
[–]fantastic_lee 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well I'm not putting herself in my shoes, I'm trying to think of every scenario not just ones that are convenient in getting perceived justice /shrug
just my opinion, which might be skewed since the article is a total of 6 sentences long...
Here's a longer one. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/10/casandra-kennedy-recants-rape-charge-against-her-father-freed-after-9-years.html
Its actually worse than the OP's article makes out, because the judge still didnt believe the guy was innocent.
[–]fantastic_lee 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
oh thanks :)
yeah the statute of limitations pass at about 9 years so criminal charges couldn't be filled even if the persecutors wanted to.
the details of the news story are interesting, apparently he was a shitty father and person before but is a much better man when he returned /tangent
[–]DoneRedditAlready 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
god i want to throw up.
[–]Le4chanFTW 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The only thing it discourages is lying, which is why we penalize people for filing false reports in the first place.
[–]Unenjoyed 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The State of Washington requires an oath of attorney which includes:
I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the defenseless or oppressed, or delay unjustly the cause of any person
That prosecutor is operation outside of her oath, and should be brought before the WA Bar Assoc. to explain her statement.
[–]TheRealPariah 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She lied about rape because she was disappointed in her father after her parents divorced. Wow. Yet another story when you are forced to recognized the trivial nonsense which is enough to have your life ruined.
[–]TrueEvenIfUdenyIt 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If we prosecute people for lying, it discourages others from truthfully making similar statements. That's why we don't prosecute people for filing false insurance claims--it might discourage people with legitimate losses from collecting on life insurance or fire insurance. Or something like that.
[–]phuckithroway 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is fucking bullshit! I haven't seen my kids or heard from them in over 5 years now and I have two more to go with my oldest.
They wanted me to take a polygraph test..haha! Fuck you!
Anways, I'm a changed man...nothing....NOTHING matters anymore.
My next stop...is the grave.
[–]Peter_Principle_ 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Using that same logic, we'd better not bring charges against people who shoot prosecuting attorneys in the face from 100 yards away with sniper rifles. After all, a policy of punishing people for assassinating DAs might discourage people who are attacked by DAs from acting in reasonable self defense. Cuckoo!
[–]tyciol 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If the courts aren't going to punish accusers, are they at least giving this guy loads of money as compensation for taking his freedom away?
I think that if the court isn't punishing false accusers that they probably aren't feeling the impact of false accusations. If courts had to pay more, I think they would probably want to punish false accusations since false convictions later uncovered would cost them so much.
If courts falsely jail a guy for rape for years on end and ruin his reputation, they should pretty much take care of him for a good chunk of his life and help him get on his feet. That's 9 years he could have been working to get promoted in a company, all that extra income should be compensated to him, not to mention for his suffering.
This is why feminists making women feel like victims when they arent is so damaging because it CREATES this kind of scenario.
[–]deaddog692000 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Here we go. My uncle came home from work to find that his wife and daughters had run away together, taking their clothes and all electrical appliances they would need in their new home. This included the washing machine.
Two years later the Mother approached my Uncle for tuition for the elder daughter. He said he had been absolved of all financial responsibility when they left. The daughter then SUED her Father...and won!
Yeah...makes me really want to have children.
[–]grrw 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
As much as this pains me: They shouldn't prosecute her. 1) She was a minor when she "did" the crime. 2) More importantly it would discourage people from coming clean.
They SHOULD however send the judge, jury and prosecutor in jail.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
How would this discourage anyone from coming clean exactly? Anyone else who is ACTUALLY being raped, would be telling the truth, and could prove it easily with a rape kit. This little bitch lied through her teeth. Not only the fact she did it, but she did this to HER FATHER. She deserves nine years in prison. I'm beyond disgusted.
Not everybody knows to take a rape kit, it's not completely common knowledge yet, but I would agree that someone should not be able to be convicted without solid proof.
Let us consider a case where the woman involved actually was raped, she didn't have the most solid evidence but she wanted to try her case anyway. He gets off (as he should if there is no evidence), he could then easily if this were the case turn around and send her to jail. Basically the repercussions could be as far reaching as anybody who loses a case can have charges pressed against them by the defendant.
Also I think the coming clean comment was on people who sent people to jail with a lie, and yes it would discourage that.
Lastly I agree the situation is disgusting, but we have to step back and calmly decide what is better for the over all cause, and justice system.
Or figure out why she lied in the first place and go after that reason.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Gender-neutral translation/analogy:
"The prosecutor released the suspect without charge after the murder, citing if murderers were killed fewer people might use guns to defend their homes."
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
if murders were killed
ಠ_ಠ
Sorry typo :P
you mean robbers right?
Good. Let them be worried about bearing false witness and giving false testimony.
[–]clake1 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Wait wait wait, so she was 11 when it happened, dad was in jail for 9 years, now she is somehow 23? Where the fuck did those 3 years come from?
[–]craigske 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
3 year trial
[–]ThisIsYourPenis 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nine long, rough anal years, pedophiles are despised in the pen.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Seriously, fucking terrible logic. Women can get anything they want if they bitch and moan about it though.
[–]Throwaway9788 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We can? I should just go to the dean of admissions office and cry because I can't get into grad school, then?
[–]MexicanGolf -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You're what's preventing any debate from being had. Gratulations on being apart of the problem.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Debate about what exactly? She admits to have lied. If she's lying about lying then it's her problem.
[–]MexicanGolf -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Right, I forgot this was /r/mensrights.
Sorry, carry on.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Nonono, I wanna get what you're getting at. I'm just lazy and don't bother subbing / unsubbing to subreddits so I get the defaults and whatever is popular - I'm not a men's rights circle jerker.
So, I wanna understand what you're getting at.
[–]MexicanGolf -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Yeah that would be a big post. I'll just be a judgmental cunt to keep it short:
Don't ever turn any debate into Us Vs Them. That's what you did by "insulting" women in general, and that's a really toxic thing to do because it taints any debate or discussion.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
But was there any real debate to be had here? Or did you just make a mistake and are trying to give me a protip?
I'm not trying to insult women and their cases should always be heard out. It's just also true that women often get better chances in court. I've lived one of the examples - my mother was an abusive bitch but she lied and my father lost in court because trying to get the law to take a child from it's mother is damn hard. It wasn't until I was 13 that I finally got out because I was finally old enough to choose it for myself.
But am I saying we shouldn't hear women out or treat them unjustly? Most certainly not! It was just more of a statement that most people already know of actually.
[–]MexicanGolf -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I didn't really make a mistake. Your statement was quite ignorant in more ways than one, and particularly so because you can't "bitch and moan" your way through a legal process stretching three years.
Also; the comparison is not the same. Custody isn't the same as rape charges. It is known that women often start from a better position when it comes to custody hearings and proceedings, but that doesn't mean they do when it comes to rape.
[–]ItsNotMineISwear -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Your original comment was a reply to an article about the actions of one 11 year-old girl and in it you generalized those actions to women as a whole.
There are bad women and bad men, but if you (and MensRights) looked around for a bit you'd realize that women are people like men and therefore not inherently anything. Which I feel is a good reason to never generalize statements to "women."
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry...I've been a dick...(and I'm drunk)
But hey, if "Mensrights" is wrong, isn't "TwoXCromosomes" also a dumb subreddit?
Honestly, I just use this because there's an equal and BIGGER subreddit than this for women. If they got rid of that shit I wouldn't even come here... it's all fucking stupid...
In the end it's all immature shit really. TwoXChromosomes, Mensrights...what the hell is this..grade school?...
I'm sorry but I'm just one of those guys that are actually the most logical when they're drunk. It makes me much more direct and unshy.
[–]ItsNotMineISwear -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
TwoX as a whole is more about talking about being a women etc. That sort of sub is important on Reddit considering how "boy's club" the main subs get, with the daily posts of jerk-off material to r/pics and r/funny. That sort of content is definitely alienating to female users, and TwoX works to counterbalance that. MensRights isn't about being a man. It's about "being oppressed by women in society" or something. I've never got that since society definitely isn't dominated by women.
[–]ThrashtilDeath 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
How would this discourage women from reporting rape if their claims are never questioned to begin with? Only the liars would be exposed.
[–]JeffreyGlen 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I believe this girl should be given the original sentence brought upon her father. She should have to serve the full time in prison. Once she is out, she should have to register as a sex offender. Let her future be ruined for this.
[–]cpjackso 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thats similar to "an eye for an eye" (and soon all the world is blind...).
The main problem with this case is that it was probably encouraged by the mother.
[–]vannucker 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Shouldn't a better reason not to charge her be she was 11 at the time. Can't really charge someone with a crime they committed at 11, event though she should have came forward earlier.
Except she was 23 when she admitted it, thats the problem.
[–]Fig1024 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
what I don't understand is how you can prove something that's not true. It is physically impossible. Anything that seems like a proof of a lie can be debunked by common logic
[–]llclll 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
How are false accusations handled in other kinds of cases; assault, theft, for example?
[–]harbeas 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Will this man be compensated in some way for taking away so many of his years?
[–]bowsersdick 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Things like this make me wish that there really was a hell.
[–]Kutharos 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Just a side thought, can't you sue that women for libel?
Yes
[–]apullin 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is only going to get worse in the next 4 years. It's not Obama's "fault", but there is a certain marching sentiment. I've seen plenty of times now, "The end of white male society", etc.
So when she got to 16 or 18 depending on your view and stopped being a kid why did it take her an additional 5 or 7 year years to figure out maybe she should say that she just made it all up?
[–]ReverendHaze 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I'm sure it's been said before, but I'm just confused by the logic here. If we penalize women for making false rape accusations, it shouldn't stop women from reporting sexual assault, it can and should stop women from making false rape accusations. I somewhat understand (though disagree with) the idea that penalizing her will stop others from coming forward about inaccurate claims, the result of which would be to reduce the number of innocent people in prisons, but the logic that it would stop people from coming forward in the first place seems absurd. Any policy that allows for false accusations makes it more difficult to punish actual rapists without concern for the falsely accused.
[–]bstills -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Because rape is so hard to prove, especially because it must be immediately reported and if the victim showers after the attack it washes away all evidence. We're talking about all rapes here, not only violent rapes that leave bruises/scars/wounds/vaginal tearing/etc. Statistically speaking, there would be number of true rape accusations that would not have enough evidence to prove a had rape occurred aside from the testimony of the victim. Would that rape then be considered false? If so, then a majority of rapes would be considered unsubstantiated and therefore "false." And if that is the case then what is the motivation for a women with no evidence of the rape that had occurred to report it to the police if she knows that they will not believe her?
[–]ReverendHaze 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
You're assuming that every case that ends without conviction should be thought of as a false rape accusation, which is completely untrue. The penalty shouldn't exist just because you couldn't prove that a rapist is guilty, it should exist if you can prove that the accuser made the claim with full knowledge that it wasn't true.
Note the way that verdicts are returned in the US court system. They are not returned "guilty" and "innocent", they're "guilty" and "not guilty". The person isn't necessarily innocent, but there is insufficient evidence to find the accused guilty. If there is insufficient evidence to convict a rapist, it's a tragedy. In the minds of most people though, including the founders of the US court system, convicting an innocent person of rape is much worse. Not only has an innocent person lost rights, the respect of their peers and their very freedom, but someone else got away with putting them there and gets the sympathy of others for doing so. If that's not a terrible crime, what is?
[–]bstills -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
It is simply too hard to prove. I was very much working under the assumption that without evidence the case would be considered a false accusation. Nobody wants innocent men going to jail but nobody wants rape victims to be told they weren't raped when they were. Both parties deserve respect and empathy during the investigation.
[–]ReverendHaze 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Both parties deserve respect and empathy, but there's no reason that we can't respect them both and still punish false accusations. What I'm saying is not "punish those who can't prove they were raped," but "punish those who we can prove were not raped." If we don't do so, there is literally no legal recourse against someone who attempts to ruin someone else's life. Saying that we won't punish it is saying that there is one terrible crime that you can get away with since punishing you would be emotionally troubling to others.
[–]bstills 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So glad we're finally in agreement: don't lie and don't rape. Pretty good philosophies.
[–]ReverendHaze 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That doesn't constitute an agreement on the point being debated though. My point is that the woman in the story should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
[–]bstills 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If a woman lies, and there is evidence that proves she is lying then YES she should be punished. She lied to the police and it's even worse if she lied in court. Lying under oath is against the law. I don't really understand why this is an issue. My own fear would be that a woman would become fearful or ashamed or coerced and recants her story and ends up wrongly imprisoned, this is a similar concern to how I don't want men who are falsely accused of rape going to jail. No innocent people belong in jail. These cases obviously just need to be thoroughly investigated and both parties need to be respected and supported so that neither feels like nobody believes them.
Edit: I'm sorry, I really just feel like we are agreeing and you're trying to disagree lol
[–]Puffy_Ghost 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not very relevant...I used to live in Kalama.
[–]shrodingerstherapist 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Vicfem (victim feminist) logic:
Rape - the most evil crime imaginable.
False accusation of rape - not even a misdemeanour.
I shouldn't have to explain that the more seriously a crime is treated, false accusation of the same crime should be treated proportionately seriously. Not identically, but proportionately.
[–]Glori-USBastard 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am assuming that Sue Baur is just another female DA? Mary Kellet in MA, Sue Baur here, my state, other states; and the male DAs all cater to the female vote.
Nothing wrong here gentlemen; move along now
Doesn't filing false rape charges insult the pain and hardship that other actual rape-victims have faced?
[–]Come_0n_People 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
23-9=14 not 11 years old.
[–]rbcrusaders 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Want to know what would encourage REAL victims to testify more than letting go liars? Women not lying.
What was that whole thing about not blaming the victims?
[–]lethalweapon100 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Someone start a petition to charge the little cunt.
[–]nathandrakesdick 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I see the logic in letting her off the hook, but it still sucks. It's a shitty situation no matter which way you look at it.
[–]theskepticalidealist 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]quaintmercury -6 points-5 points-4 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Ok I get it people that do this kinda thing should be charged. But she did it when she was 11. Also side note the problem really lies with the burden of proof it should be that if a woman makes a false rape accusation the guy just doesn't go to jail in the first place.
[–]themountaingoat 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
She was 13 or 14 when the trial ended.
But when she reached the age of 18 and considered an adult she continued to lie for another 5 years. Sorry, not buyin that excuse.
[–]quaintmercury 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I not saying she did the right thing I just understand it. I mean when I was 18 if I had the choice to come clean on something and risk going to prison I would not have done it.
And yet it STILL took her 5 years to come foward. Anyway the point here is that an 11 year old is too young to really be held accountable, not that we can understand she wouldnt want to admit it later. We're not talking about an 11 year old we're talking about a girl who still failed to say anything until she was 23 over 5 years after she is considered an adult and accountable for adult crimes.
[+]AllDesperadoStation -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She deserves to be beat.
[–]Whitescar -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Could you use double jeopardy in this case? Did the time, do the crime then!
Wow I'm scared
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I once read that it's better for ten guilty men to go free than to put one innocent man away.
I would submit that this is exactly what is going on here, and if you don't understand that, I would contend that your pervasion is in direct opposition with what I thought /r/MensRights is supposed to be all about.
edit: downvoted, eh?
Think of it like this. Perhaps there are people sitting in prison, innocent of rape, with their accusers still walking free. Well, however free their consciences will allow them to be. While they feel guilty about their accusation, their fear of prison is greater, so they will never come forward. However, if we make the concession to allow one person to be freed from their prison of the mind, another can be let out of their prison of concrete. Everyone wins.
This place has gotten so fucking angry. I get it, I get pissed all the time, guys. I'm also learning I'm at my best when I'm at my gentlest. Being a gentleman.
[+]UpvotesMakeMeHard -27 points-26 points-25 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Oh my god! You guys are worse than feminists. Quit being a bunch of bitches.
[–]QuestionSign 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
do you know what even an accusation can do to a man's career?
[–]Amyler 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It can put him in jail for 9 years. In this case it would have been longer had she not eventually decided to admit.
I'm sure she felt real bad about her father being in jail for damn near a decade though, so he's got a point. She shouldn't be punished or anything, because her emotions have already punished her so much already. /s
[–]QuestionSign 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
lol I was getting so mad at this comment then I saw the /s and I smiled.
[–]Amyler 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No matter how ridiculous the parody, online, it must be marked, because somewhere, there is someone crazy enough to have that opinion.
[–]FizzyWizzy -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know if this is a new "thing" or not, but your title sucks. Not descriptive AND not witty. Downvoted even thought I was interested in the story.
[+]Muntberg -23 points-22 points-21 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't get what this post is complaining about... the highlighted portion is true.
[–]Tannz0rz -5 points-4 points-3 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Mandatory lie detector tests as a fail-safe?
[–]clamhurt_legbeards 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
The unreliability of those tests is why they aren't admissible as evidence. You can easily get false positives, which might damn someone innocent, and false negatives, which would clear a liar. They're used in things like security clearances because they help to raise or clear red flags, but in that case the worst that can happen is that you're turned down for a clearance or you're further investigated; they aren't seen as evidence of anything in and of themselves.
Although I seem to recall a big kerfluffle a couple of years back about much newer and more reliable tests, that rely on something like PET scans instead of superficial readings.
[–]ownworldman 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes, and their unreliability raises the more nervous test subject is. And in police station after you lived through something horrible it is probably unusable.
[–]Cyhawk 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Its completely unusable anyways. Lie detector tests are a horrible circus trick that got out of hand. Might as well ask a Psychic if they can read their minds, about the same pass/fail rate.
[–]ownworldman 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Really? I know government agencies use polygraph in hiring process. Do you have some research that it is completely bonkers?
[–]Cyhawk 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Just google "Lie detector test bullshit"
Theres a reason Lie detector tests aren't admissible in court.
[–]ownworldman 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I get why it is not admissable in court, but that does not mean it is bullshit.
[–]Tannz0rz 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I never suggested they be used directly after the event in a police station, rather pre-hearing in court. But if they're unreliable I suppose it doesn't matter.
[–]samiam010203 -4 points-3 points-2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
This is why anytime I am dealing with a woman who is even the slightest bit mentally unstable I make a point to not put up with anything from them. I figure if I'm going to get blamed and accused of anything at least I should tell such pigs how I really feel about them. EXAMPLE:
Yesterday I was the last person on a line at a starbucks to use the restroom. In front of me was a 20-something college girl. I am standing there, all of a sudden her female "friend" comes and just stands right in front of me. I asked the "friend" "are you planning to use the restroom?" she said yes. I then smiled and said "Then get the fuck behind me! I am online too and I don't give a fuck about what your reasoning is for jumping ahead of me! So move to the end of the line." Sure, her and her friend gave me a look like I was an asshole. That's only because when your used to everyone treating you like the spoiled over grown child that you are, when someone treats you like an adult its shocking and because you know you will not get your way that time also makes you angry. Deal with it!
My rule is, if you're not having sex with me, you get no special treatment. I don't give a crap how much you cry and have a childlike temper tantrum.
When more men begin to put this types of pigs back into their place, you will begin to see that the rest will fall right into line with the others.
[–]BeffyLove 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Did you even read it? It's about his own child.
Are you going to abandon your child if she is mentally unstable?
[–]falilth 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
at that point , yes .
[–]iwontrememberthis75 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Um you were indeed acting like an asshole. Screaming and cussing at someone in public in a Starbucks restroom queue isn't exactly a rational way of furthering your rights and if you think so you're just silly.
[–]samiam010203 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, actually I was not screaming when I put the pig in her place. I was talking in a normal tone, only using the force that women recognize as the tone used when putting one of them in their place. The problem in today's world is that too many women are loud-mouthed pigs who need to shut the F up sometimes.
[+]MickeyWallace -6 points-5 points-4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
now's a perfect time for gang rape with no witnesses.
[–]MexicanGolf 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, you're a fucking idiot.
[–]MexicanGolf 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
My comments lately are like this, yeah. I'm a little bit more frustrated than usual and it shows, but I'll be back to being a positive person capable of conducting a discussion any day now.
Also; Hilarious misread. Stay in school, because as is you suck at it.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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