If you expect men to be: confident, dominant, approach you first, ask you out first, plan the date, drive you there, pay the bill, initiate sex even when married (to you), and give you presents (valentines, flowers): Then you support and prefer gender roles.

CerealExprmntz · 2025-06-24T09:22:07+00:00

Well yes and no. They only support the gender roles that benefit them and are convenient for them.

PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2025-06-23T21:05:22+00:00

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coldsleepybitch · 2025-06-23T21:44:57+00:00

As a feminist, I don’t disagree with you. I believe in rejecting masculine and feminine gender roles alike. In my marriage our roles are either shared equally or determined by our strengths and aptitude as individuals (with some consideration to logistical circumstances) not what is culturally expected based on gender. We both paid for dates. Nowadays it all comes from a joint bank account anyway. We both spoil each other. We make decisions collaboratively. Neither of us drive…period, neither of us even have a car. I don’t expect him to “lead” and I don’t want him to! We’re a partnership, not a heirarchy. Our wedding was not particularly traditional either. I don’t have a diamond engagement ring nor did I want one - we had simple bands because that’s what we could afford. There was no “handing me off” at our wedding (even if my father had been present in my life and in attendance, I personally find the tradition off putting) and I didn’t take my husband’s last name. My dress was pale peach…I think it was actually meant to be a bridesmaids dress lol. I’d like to get to a place where people are free to choose a traditional relationship dynamic if that’s what feels right and authentic for them, but move away from traditional gender roles being regarded as the default cultural expectation. And of course, most men who embody traditional masculinity will prefer at least some degree of traditional femininity from their partner, and vice versa. It’s kind of unrealistic to expect otherwise.

TotalTravesty · 2025-06-23T20:46:32+00:00

How much work is the “and” doing, OP? That’s very important. I’d agree that all those things are very indicative of “traditional gender roles.” Probably even most of them. But reality lives in the gray area. What about the more realistic example of someone who prefers confidence, wants him to pay for the FIRST date only, but insists on finding their own way there and will initiate sex with you when she’s in the mood? Or any kind of mix-and-match combination you can think of.

MongoBobalossus · 2025-06-23T20:40:24+00:00

There’s nothing wrong with “traditional gender roles” if you’re freely choosing to embody them.

Live your life how you want.

badgersonice · 2025-06-23T20:47:09+00:00

Marriage was invented for the purpose of using medieval daughters as political bargaining chips.

Marriage existed long, long before the medieval era. Ancient Romans got married, and so did ancient Greeks, just for specific examples within the western, pre-Christian societies.

Likewise, peasants married too— they existed far below the attention of political alliances.

Marriage has varied tremendously across the millennia and across different cultures, but it also wasn’t born only 1000 years ago solely as a trade of women for power.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2025-06-23T22:57:54+00:00

I don't disagree, but I also think that there's a difference between "women and men shouldn't be confined by gender roles expectations" and "I am good at x so I am seeking a y"

For example I don't believe in gender roles and I believe that we should both give each other Valentine's gifts

But also I'm good with numbers and in my culture (Asian) the household budget is controlled by the woman. So I do the household budget. Is this gender roles?

Conversely men tend to be stronger ... Is it gender roles that I expect him to carry heavier things than I do?

Or is this division not gender roles because we're playing to our strengths?

What if I don't believe in gender roles and I don't expect a man to do 99% of them, but I do want someone who is confident because I think confidence is attractive? Does this make me an evil hypocrite feminist?

What if there are women who are feminist and don't believe in gender roles but are just passive as a personality trait? I've met very passive men too btw. But these women don't expect men to ask them out. They also just don't ask anyone out because they're passive people. By default they only end up with men who ask them out or are dominant, not because they are women, but because they are passive. Does that make them horrible hypocrites?

Human beings aren't a box that has a tick off list of traits.

ResponsibilityAny217 · 2025-06-23T20:47:16+00:00

There is nothing stopping you from picking and choosing what gender roles to keep and which ones to let go of, so why not ?
Many women embrace gender roles and expectations even the ones that don't benefit them. The women who embrace gender roles want men who are also very traditional. The women who are more flexible about gender roles want men who view gender roles flexibly.

Outside_Memory5703 · 2025-06-23T21:43:01+00:00

Nope. I’d prefer it if I didn’t have to filter and require effort. But I do

torytho · 2025-06-23T22:29:11+00:00

I think women who expect that do bring something else to the table. Either, they're willing to cook, or they put *a lot* of effort into their appearance. Or she'll put out. Or something of comparable value. And if the guy doesn't feel like she's pulling her weight, he can dump her.

Maleficent-Answer710 · 2025-06-26T02:31:32+00:00

Women are hypocrites. Pick and choose whatever gender roles benefit them.

PurplePillDebate-ModTeam · 2025-06-23T21:13:14+00:00

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Tylikcat · 2025-06-23T22:00:43+00:00

In practice, of course, couples who don't embrace some gender role schema (and to a certain extent even those who do, because few are completely on the same page with their gender role schema) work out what matters to the two of them. People have different skills and different priorities. As long as the folks in question feel like they have a reasonably even division of labor, it's all good.

Reading this it sounds like if you don't want to be a trad wife, no presents for you, ever! And for that matter, that man better not try initiating sex with me, even when he's horny, and I'm distracted! Nope, he should sit demurely, giving me the occasional yearning glance, until I notice. (If I notice, and feel like initiating. Depending on what's up, he might be waiting a long time.)

Now, when it comes to the dating specific ones above, I happen not to be into any of the things listed? (I mean, I'm not against a guy asking me out, but I've done most of the asking with folks I've dated, and rejected far more offers than I've accepted.) We bought each other presents in Valentines day, or agreed not to.

But, for instance, that I happen to be an excellent cook doesn't mean that I support traditional gender roles. It means I like cooking. (It also doesn't mean that I have agreed to cook all meals forever, or that someone can tell me what to cook when. But I like cooking and it's easy to get me to cook if you aren't a dick about it.)

growframe · 2025-06-23T20:47:06+00:00

You don't get to just pick and choose which ones you get to keep.

Why not? What governing body is out there mandating which gender roles you can and can't involve in your dating life?

The dating market is an extremely free market. That results in self-correction. If you can find dates, sex and/or relationships that fit within whatever arbitrary set of gender roles you want, then you can indeed pick and choose which ones you keep.

If someone can clearly explain the difference between my title, and when a man prefers women who cook and clean (more than he does/wants to), or are more passive and agreeable than they are confidant/dominant: then I fully accept that I'm wrong.

The difference is that the preference in your title isn't likely to turn off the men women want to date, while the one you've mentioned here can turn off the women men want to date

incogneatolady · 2025-06-24T00:16:07+00:00

What do you mean people can’t pick and choose what roles they want to conform to or their partner to conform to. Did we suddenly lose free will?

There’s a difference between having a choice vs feeling forced in to something like an expectation.

That was like idk half the point of feminism. To have choice, to try and remove gendered expectations. If a woman wants to live her best trad life, I wish her well. You can even be a feminist and also want to be a SAHM, because it’s a choice. Wanting to eliminate the default expectation of gender roles doesn’t mean you have to hate them or personally reject them.

I prefer to go Dutch but am I no longer feminist if I let a man who asked me out, treat me to that date? Am I still choosing? Great.

Eliminate the expectation of gender roles but conform to them if YOU and YOUR PARTNER so choose. If you want a trad wife then be a trad husband and vice versa.

I think it’s a very very small subset of women who are both hardcore feminists and want more trad men. But who also don’t want to conform to trad wife norms. Like a very very small subset of people. I’d bet in the single digits for a percentage.

I do think it’s a little wild when someone wants to be kept but doesn’t want to also provide on their end. Relationships aren’t transactional but they should be reciprocal. Then again the idea of being a trad wife/kept woman gives me the ick, but idk how else you reciprocate if you’re a SAHM/W without doing the “gendered” things

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2025-06-23T20:59:16+00:00

You don't get to just pick and choose which ones you get to keep.

Why not? We generally do all try to hold onto traditions that we like, or think are good. Whilst rejecting other ones.

attendquoi · 2025-06-23T21:18:45+00:00

How on earth is confidence a gender role? I expect women to be confident too.

jldreadful · 2025-06-23T21:28:43+00:00

You absolutely get to choose though, you just have to find someone who agrees with your choices to be your partner.

ThatBitchA · 2025-06-23T22:31:54+00:00

Yes, I actually do get to pick and choose what part of gender roles I'd like to participate in.

Also, giving presents isn't confined to a specific gender.

Neither is confidence or dominance.

Generally, though, I absolutely do pick and choose. That's the plus of being an adult.

lesliecarbone · 2025-06-23T21:47:50+00:00

confidant/dominant

INFO: Do you believe that these words mean essentially the same thing or that these traits always mutually co-exist or something similar?

I'm trying to understand why they would be paired in this manner.

onlyaseeker · 2025-06-23T23:26:42+00:00

Modern-day right-wing men absolutely have encouraged and enforced these roles. They're just all aging out of what you think is relevant, which is frankly solipsistic of you. You forget that so many of us turned out furious because we came up under purity culture. That's still modern-day. That's not history yet. We're not done reckoning with it.

signed, a woman who just wants someone who's equal, and equally as confident

Axis_Control · 2025-06-24T02:13:11+00:00

I support some gender roles that benifit me but not all gender roles.

My_House_on_Mars · 2025-06-23T20:39:57+00:00

Good thing I don't expect any of that!

(except maybe the confident part but that's not something I expect particularly from men and I can absolutely understand that we are not always confident in everything we do, I'm not 100% confident either)

cutegolpnik · 2025-06-23T22:29:32+00:00

Approaching isn’t a service to women, it’s men being horny and trying to help themselves.

If a man contributes more financially but overall it’s a 50/50 relationship, then it’s 50/50 bc money is one of many metrics.

I’d prefer to emotionally connect w a man and talk nonstop like I do w my girlfriends and gay male friends. But if they prefer to be stoic and only feel comfy showing love through money, then yeah I’m not going 50/50 financially w them.

KayRay1994 · 2025-06-23T22:58:57+00:00

I’ll tell you the amazing thing, if you want a housewife, you can only date women who want to be housewives. The issue is when people see others not going their preferred route as a societal problem. Some women would love to be housewives, others don’t. Some men love being the provider, others don’t.

alwaysright0 · 2025-06-23T21:10:03+00:00

and give you presents

Why?

LillthOfBabylon · 2025-06-23T21:24:35+00:00

Why are we always having this conversation? Okay, some bitches are hypocrites. MOVE ON.

So are men.

This sub has men who dont want sluts but then want women to fuck him within two seconds of knowing him. This sub has men who whine about alimony but dont give a fuck about a woman’s job.

Traditional_Lab1192 · 2025-06-23T21:41:52+00:00

Personally, I am fine with gender roles in my personal relationship. I don’t require everything on that list like plan the date and must initiate sex but my boyfriend pretty much fits the rest and I like it. We both practice gender roles in our relationship.

The difference is that I don’t expect everyone to be like my relationship. I don’t think that a man is less of a man because he doesn’t do the things that my boyfriend does. He’s just the right man for a different type of woman than me.

That conclusion is so false though lmao.

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Icy-Gene7565 · 2025-06-23T21:53:03+00:00

If i got down on one knee to propose, can i expect her to kneel to me

Trikger · 2025-06-24T06:01:30+00:00

I'm against gender roles in the sense that they shouldn't be an obligation. A person who doesn't abide by their "role" shouldn't be seen as bad.

I don't expect men to do all those things. I don't consider someone less of a man if he doesn't do all of those things. I also don't consider someone less of a man if he doesn't do all of those things all of the time. Everyone's different and we all have different preferences. So long as that's allowed, I don't feel like it's a matter of gender roles.

Flightlessbirbz · 2025-06-24T19:14:10+00:00

Things like who approaches or pays for a date do not matter at all to me outside of a cultural context where men do those things when they are interested in a woman. For example, my understanding is that in some more progressive European countries, splitting the bill is the default. And quite frankly, I think that’s exactly how it should be. So if I were on a date in one of those countries, I would not take offense and would feel more comfortable with it really.

But in the US, I have to wonder if he wants to split the bill because he feels the same way I do about it, or if it’s because he isn’t really interested or has a negative opinion of women. Because we’re in that awkward in-between stage of cultural progress where men and women are equal on paper, but many men absolutely do not see women as equals.

Or if I initiate sex, that seems fine to me, but will he find that attractive or slutty? (This only applies in a hypothetical dating scenario, I don’t feel that way in my marriage and would guess most women don’t.)

Men are left in a similar predicament in a lot of cases, for this same reason that until you’ve been in a relationship for a while, you just don’t know how traditional or progressive that person is. This creates these awkward standoffs and ambiguity about people’s intentions, and tends to prevent cultural progress.

riseabovepoison · 2025-06-25T16:58:06+00:00

This isn't a black and white thing. And literally people pick and choose the things in life that are best for them. You might love Italian food but it doesn't mean you need to eat Italian food all the time.

There are some interesting studies on how men vs women build emotional attachment. Men build emotional attachment through these kinds of acts. Women are indeed planning lots of things for men, for kids, for parents, they end up doing a lot of the paying (please don't argue about this, just look at the studies), they initiate things that build trust, and if you would like flowers you can ask for them but many men find it emasculating subconsciously. I discussed buying flowers for a male friend before and he agreed then on the day of he said he should have bought me flowers. When my girl friends buy flowers for each other this conversation doesn't happen.

But sure if you like you cam have a woman do those things and see if you feel any attraction towards her or if you end up disrespecting her. We are all different, but from my experience men don't actually go for women who do those things.

OldPyjama · 2025-06-27T12:12:09+00:00

I've been on countless dates via Tinder before I met my girlfriend and I haven't met a single girl who demanded I'd pay the bill all by myself, do all the planning and driving and be overly dominant.

It's either a cultural thing or people here are grossly exaggerating this idea of men needing to be perfect.

Temporary-Flower-376 · 2025-06-28T05:46:39+00:00

Men seem to want the beautiful women to prove their masculinity. And that they are top dog. It’s a man’s world that way. Women spend way too much money dolling themselves up for the few dateable men. Many are disappointed by today’s standards and unless you’re willing to win their affection they would rather sleep alone. Independent women can usually afford their own meals and drinks. If you’re not happy playing the game which is what it is, watch hockey with your friends. If you genuinely APPRECIATE women you’ll do what’s needed. I offer to pay for my own lunch on a date. And I don’t go for dinner with someone I don’t know and like. Some women who have dated a lot go on repeated dates where men pay and expect s. They don’t take rides with a guy because it’s not safe to do so. Some are scared going home if men know where they live. Dating sucks. Many have had bad experiences in the past and if she doesn’t fit the bill for you do the decent thing and say good luck I’m looking for someone I feel more connection with. Or please use AI and come up with something better. She’s allowed to say the same. You’re adults. Maybe try another date with her and maybe another. You should feel something by then, if not bow out gracefully. Let’s hope it leads to love. Don’t meet women at bars and don’t expect sex the first night and be a gentleman. I know it’s not everybody’s cup of tea but if you want quality you have to expect it of yourself too. You can tell women what you’re looking for and how you’d like the evening to play out. Meet where you’re both doing things you enjoy. Ask the right questions and don’t sleep with them for months later. Play hard to get. We don’t mind. Dating is unpleasant for both today. If a woman was a man (like your brother let’s say), would you say and think the things you do or can you think about it in terms of equality. And what’s good for you is good for her too. We don’t all expect free meals but if you can’t date this way let them know. But you know because we have babies, and will care for babies (yes in traditional terms) we are looking for someone who is desirable in important ways also. Maybe not with you but for the lucky ones it may lead to love. What is wrong with being friends anyway. Isn’t that what you want, a friend by your side to the bitter end. If it’s meant to be you’ll have romance. But for god sake have the balls to be honest. And learn to handle rejection. Check YouTube. And that goes for women too. You’ll eventually find the one. Wish each other well, or cry. Either is quite nice. Expectations are all different I think. No two are alike and we all try to show our best side. Also, we all want good stories. Women are the weaker sex and you should appreciate her and she shouldn’t be afraid even if you’re not Prince Charming she was expecting. Oops sorry.

AJ_The_Best_7 · 2025-07-01T13:38:10+00:00

There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles, if that is what you want. There is also nothing wrong with rejecting these gender roles, if that is what you want. I think people should pick one or the other.

Confident_Counter471 · 2025-07-10T20:59:54+00:00

I have asked men out before, but rarely. Thing is I’m perfectly happy to hangout with my girlfriends or at home alone so the idea of pursuing anyone just wouldn’t cross my mind. Maybe a little crush here and there but not a strong drive.

narkahticks · 2025-07-13T21:23:37+00:00

I’m a feminist and I believe that all of it should be abolished. Including the idea of masculinity and femininity. The idea of socially constructed concepts being what’s supposed to determine someone’s personality because of their gender has always been stupid to me. Men shouldn’t be expected to pay for anything because they’re men. Women shouldn’t be expected to do anything because they’re women. It’s just stupid to me. I wish I was born 100 years later so that this shit wouldn’t exist anymore.

jamjam1070 · 2025-09-15T18:26:21+00:00

I have been looking for a traditional man my whole life. All men I find expect me to pay for everything and make all decisions in support of women's equality, but they are completely undesirable because they lack that manly confidence a woman needs. I want a man to pay for some things, work hard and take charge of decisions. A real man. I will cook, clean and look pretty all day. I love it. Where can someone find a guy like this? I think the old way was better.

leosandlattes · 2025-06-23T22:42:27+00:00

You actually can pick and choose whatever you like. It doesn’t make you not a feminist. Feminism is about female liberation, not anything else.

If that were the case, any woman participating in pregnancy and motherhood cannot be feminists either. Since they are upholding gender roles.

Your criticism is that it’s self serving and not fair. No one said dating had to be fair.

sublimemongrel · 2025-06-24T01:12:21+00:00

This is retarded. A lot of that is just cultural tradition. Like expecting women to bear your children and care for them predominantly and learn to cook are also expected gender roles yet no one is like wow all these backwards men where are you supporting surrogates and private chefs come on.

MEN ALSO support gender roles if not MORESO even when they claim not to.

Superannuated_punk · 2025-06-23T22:42:33+00:00

Another post where a guy invents a woman to get mad at.

Yours is the power to reject gender roles, my man.

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