The problem with the paternity test debate

GH0STRIDER579 · 2024-09-26T12:02:56+00:00

If a test is that important to you, just bring it up before you have kids. In fact, bring it up before you get married. The both of you will be on the same page, and if it's a deal breaker for either side, you're free to leave. A woman who feels offended by a paternity test would have the option to leave, and a man who wants it shouldn't be with a woman not willing to give him one either.

Plus-Opportunity8541 · 2024-09-26T17:01:24+00:00

Idk why you wouldn't do the ancestry test instead of a paternity test. It gives way more plausible deniability and is actually pretty cool. The problem women have with it is when a man asks after the child is born, which is literally the worst possible time, because a woman is probably the most pumped up on hormones right after a child is born. Have the discussion early.

RocketYapateer · 2024-09-26T12:24:36+00:00

It’s pretty much the same debate couples have about going through each other’s phones, just in a different form. Nothing to hide equals no need for privacy, versus if you trust me you shouldn’t have to verify.

Different people feel different ways about this. It’s at least partly generational. The younger someone is, the more likely they are to insist on privacy for privacy’s sake.

The debate is largely theoretical anyway. US localities are not going to fund mandatory mass paternity testing. Half of them don’t even fund road maintenance properly. If a man is sincerely concerned about this with a woman he’s dating, he can generally just drag his feet on completing paternity acknowledgment paperwork long to get a $50 test from Walgreens and swab the newborn without mom ever knowing.

SaBahRub · 2024-09-26T14:39:50+00:00

No, there’s no need to make an accusation of infidelity normal. You can just test in secret

Slipthe · 2024-09-26T14:24:20+00:00

As I've said before, the worst part of all of this is waiting until after a woman gets pregnant or has the baby to make your desires known.

Waiting til the baby is born to ask for a paternity tests is genuinely the worst time because the mother is probably in the most vulnerable state of her life and you basically just said, "Depending on the results of this test, I am about to get the fuck out of dodge."

Doesn't read like someone who is ready to be a father, reads like someone looking for an out. Great way to give your wife PPD.

Tangential0 · 2024-09-26T13:04:31+00:00

I think most men ask for paternity tests because of one of the following:

They have an anxiety problem or some form of neurodivergence that makes trust difficult (this probably covers a good portion of redpillers)
They have trauma from being cheated on previously
Something about their wife's behaviour doesn't sit right with them and makes them subcosciously suspicious

Very few "normal" men in happy relationships want them. I don't understand why they're treated like such a common thing here.

krackedy · 2024-09-26T11:40:35+00:00

People should be discussing this before having kids if it's that important to them. It's an uncomfortable but necessary conversation.

It sucks that men can't know with 100% certainty without a test, but I also understand why women would be offended and potentially end the relationship.

Personally I never felt any desire for a paternity test for my kids, but they look so much like me when I was a kid... they look more like me than my wife (poor kids...). I've also never had any reason to distrust my wife.

blonde___guardian · 2024-09-26T12:54:19+00:00

As far as I can tell, our local Red Pillers keep bringing up paternity testing at scale because they're dealing with a fundamental tension within their position.

On the one hand, they believe that women are motivated to engage in paternity fraud. Whether it's due to hypergamy, women's inherent immoral nature, or a secret third thing, that's the core of their worldview. And they know that they already have the tools to navigate this: by having a long, boring, desperately unsexy conversation with any woman they even think of boning, telling her upfront that they'll need any child paternity tested. Who knows, some women might even say yes!

On the other, they know that this will drain their relationship pool pretty significantly. And so, instead of holding on to their principles, they try to offload the burden onto society at large. We should all give our DNA to the government at birth because otherwise, they might have trouble getting laid. It's such an eye-rolling, Daddy Government Must Solve My Problems position. (And I say that as a pretty boring liberal who doesn't even hate Daddy Government.)

SlashCo80 · 2024-09-26T11:39:52+00:00

Just gonna paraphrase what I wrote yesterday

The ones arguing the loudest for paternity tests seemed to be redpill manosphere dudes whose argument was essentially that women can't be trusted, and they should be fine with it anyway if they have nothing to hide. Responses that the woman in this scenario would feel hurt and un-trusted were basically ignored and hand-waved away.

Some said that if a woman should be fine with a paternity test, then the man should be fine with subjecting his phone and/or computer to searches to see if he isn't cheating. After all, he should have nothing to hide.

Although honestly, these are all silly games. If I were a woman and my husband was asking for a test to determine whether a kid is his, I would say "Go ahead. But no matter what the result is, I will know you don't trust me and things will not be the same between us from now on." End of discussion.

MiddleZealousideal89 · 2024-09-26T16:45:30+00:00

There are several "problems" with the paternity test debate.

Some people think it should be mandatory at birth, a lot of people don't like the idea of labs having their genetic info on file without them being able to decide whether or not they want that, and they don't want their tax dollars going into funding such a program.
Some people pretend that asking your LTR partner for a paternity test doesn't carry negative implications with it. It does. Obviously, if we're talking about concerns like IVF screw ups, kids swapped at the hospital, or situations where there is the clear possibility of there being another dad (ethically non-monogamous couples), sure, testing if the kid is his or his AND hers makes sense. But if none of that is a consideration - no assistance was needed for conception, the baby still hasn't been born, and you're monogamous, there are only 2 possibilities for the kid to not be yours. Number one is that you've got a baby Jesus situation going on. Number two is that she's slept with someone else and he got her pregnant. You asking for a test means you think there's a realistic enough chance that it's either the next coming of Jesus or that she's a cheating bitch.
Some people think that even if there is a negative implication, the other person shouldn't take it personally and should just act like they weren't insulted, presumably, for the sake of the family. I don't think you get to dictate how other people feel about your actions, and you're gonna have a rough time if you think you're owed that.

Frankly, I think a lot of the dudes in these conversations come off as cowardly whiners - they want their peace of mind (which is fine) but don't want to deal with the natural possible consequences of getting it. They want the lamb to be unharmed and the wolf to be full, as we would say where I'm from. I have a lot of respect for the guys who say "I want a test done, it's non-negotiable for me, and if she leaves me for it, that's fine, this is just THAT important to me". At least they're standing up for themselves and their convictions, they're not trying to use the government to avoid an unpleasant conversation, nor are they trying to (poorly attempt to) gaslight us into thinking that questioning your fidelity isn't really happening, and even if it was, it's not a big deal.

Solondthewookiee · 2024-09-26T13:19:58+00:00

The paternity test "debate" isn't actually about paternity testing. For anyone concerned about paternity, the solution already exists; get a paternity test. But to understand why it gets harped on so much, first you have to understand that when it comes to social issues, the manosphere (red pill, MRA, MGTOW, incels, etc) does not care about men's issues, they care about attacking women and feminists.

Once you see it through that lens, their arguments are much clearer. Feminism is based on the fact that women have always been, and largely continue to be, systemically disadvantaged by society, most often at the hands of men. The manosphere hates feminists, so to counteract that, they must find things where men are disadvantaged by society and then blame women for it. This is the core tenet of manosphere social activism: every issue must attack women and/or feminists, no matter what.

Paternity testing is an easy one because they have a perceived "disadvantage" and, even better, it upsets women because they're being accused of cheating. Actual paternity fraud is very rare and the situtations presented in these discussions (a presumed committed, monogamous relationship where the woman gets pregnant by another man) is even rarer. You can even see how they respond to proposed solutions. The obvious one, just get a paternity test, is rejected because women are likely to leave a man who demands a paternity test, and that is a woman exercising agency and free will to being insulted, and thus the attack against women doesn't really land very well. For the same reason, men who argue for paternity testing often reject just getting one done secretly because if the woman doesn't know she's being accused of cheating, then what's the point? The only solution they will accept is one where they can openly get the test and the woman just sits and takes it.

You can see this pattern in virtually every social issue they argue for. Look at how they argue for the draft: "Men can possibly be drafted and forced to go die in a war because men are considered disposable!" Fair enough, then let's abolish the draft, which is largely supported by feminists. "Oh no no no," they say. "Women should be forced to register for the draft because, uh, what if North Korea invades???" They will make a feeble argument about how it is still needed even though the vast majority of people posting here live in countries where it hasn't been used in decades because they live under the protection of the largest, most well-funded, and most technologically advanced military alliance that has ever existed. But that wouldn't punish women, so rather than make it so that men aren't disposable, they prefer to make it so that women are disposable.

Once you understand this viewpoint, you will see it in almost everything they argue for.

bison5595 · 2024-09-26T13:18:11+00:00

This debate is all about ego. Any guy with a child can order a paternity test anytime they want without telling the mom. The men whining about this sound like women. You want to be able to ask for a paternity test without the woman being upset. That’s what this is mostly about

DietTyrone · 2024-09-26T14:09:20+00:00

Indeed asking for a paternity test just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with

You're missing the biggest factor, which is that paternity fraud only succeeds in situations where there is trust. Guys who don't have that trust, wouldn't get tricked in the first place. This is why it's important to normalize paternity testing if we want to eliminate paternity fraud.

Telling guys to only check when there's doubt literally solves nothing, because the men with means to doubt are already checking and aren't the victims of paternity fraud. It's the men who had no reason to doubt and trusted their woman, that were blindsided years later that the kid wasn't their's.

cybernd · 2024-09-26T13:19:10+00:00

Different angle:

Doesn't the kid deserve to know who his biological father is?

Werevulvi · 2024-09-26T13:39:18+00:00

I really don't see the issue because women who don't cheat have nothing to worry about, a DNA test will only confirm what they're saying, and women who do cheat deserve to have the truth forced out of them, and men who live with cheating girlfriends/wives deserve to know that truth.

I've never cheated so I just don't see how a paternity test would ever be a threat to me, should I ever become pregnant. If anything I generally support things that punish or catch cheaters because that lot are making life harder for those of us who value and practice honesty with our partners.

While trust matters, you can't expect trust, and you do not deserve to gain trust, if you're not being honest to begin with. Trust is the reward of honesty. And women who baby trap their husbands have low morals and give their husbands zero reason to trust them to begin with. Why we've resorted to excusing and coddling cheaters is beyond me. Cheaters need to deal with the consequences of their actions and I do not give a single fuck if they're butthurt about it. Even if it was a friend, I'd say "well what did you expect."

As for honest women with insecure husbands... I get that might put a strain on the relationship, but when you've got nothing to hide this is rarely an impossibly difficult issue to solve. Even insecure people generally learn to trust again when treated well, and for such a guy, if a simple DNA test is gonna win his trust, that's a good thing. These tests do not harm the baby, nor do they require any extra work from the woman.

Cool_Ranch_2511 · 2024-09-26T12:17:28+00:00

asking for a paternity test just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with, leading me to question the quatilty of the choice and ask myself why should one entertain this kind of relation to begin with

Your main point has already been addressed numerous times in countless other similar posts. The type of responses there are going to be the same responses you'll get here because you're just rehashing the same point. You could have just read the responses that were already presented.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-09-26T12:28:11+00:00

That make me think there should be sound reasons for someone to make that kind of public claim

Well the fact that paternity fraud has no punishments while holding big benefits means that there's an incentive into doing it.

Don't you think that self preservation to be a sound enough reason?

Planthoe30 · 2024-09-26T12:14:25+00:00

We can agree people shouldn’t get married to someone they don’t trust but the thing is we don’t plan on having doubts about people we love. My husband and I were both cheated on in the past and while we aren’t cheaters and never have been that does mess with your head. Instead of expecting blind devotion we actually attempt to give peace of mind to the other. My husband has told me early on he wanted a paternity test if he were to have kids and I will respect that. Even if he doesn’t request one I will so that he can have the reassurance.

Edit: I also despise women who knowingly separate children from their real fathers. Since paternity fraud is a female crime primarily I do think there should be prevention and consequences.

Savings-Bee-4993 · 2024-09-26T14:51:40+00:00

I told my girlfriend about how I was arguing with people the other day on this sub about paternity tests.

Before I could tell her my position, she nonchalantly said, “I just want to do that anyway. It’s just good to know, and I read somewhere that men contribute more to the child’s life if they have that certainty.”

“A lot of these people are arguing though that a man asking for a paternity test is an accusation of cheating,” I said, probing her a little bit. She just scrunched up her face, told me “I don’t agree with that — that’s silly,” and we had a lovely conversation.

I was pleasantly surprised. So, we’re going to get the testing done when we have our first child.

emorizoti · 2024-09-26T13:11:20+00:00

I think it's best to make a DNA test a few moments after the baby is born. Not just for the father's sake, but there have been lots of mistakes in hospitals around the world by getting the wrong tag on the wrong baby. Basically parents have raised someone else's baby without even knowing it until much later by accident. So the baby should be confirmed to its biological parents since day 1.

It's been discussed alot in here, that women vet and are careful with men because they have to carry the child for 9 months. But it's rarely mentioned, that the father holds the responsibility to provide for that kid for at least 18 years, even in the case of a divorce and by default it goes to the mother. In which case it would plain stupid and not fair to provide for a kid who's not yours, while the biological father is free of any duties and roaming around. And of course the cheating part done in full secrecy while the husband has no clue about it. So it is better to learn the truth since the beggining than to spend a lifetime believing a lie.

LoopyPro · 2024-09-26T12:12:45+00:00

Men don't like rocking the boat either. However, men who later on find out that they invested thousands of dollars and many years of their time in a kid that wasn't theirs aren't going to be compensated. To add insult to injury, they will be forced to be on the hook. Therefore, the rational reaction is an increased emphasis on prevention.

If men were entitled to compensation and women were prosecuted for paternity fraud, fewer men would have an issue with signing a birth certificate.

Smooth-Atmosphere657 · 2024-09-26T12:59:53+00:00

I just think if you don’t trust your partner THAT much, then why are you with them at all? I don’t deny that these things happen and someone ends up raising a child which isn’t theirs which is heartbreaking to find out. But surely if you think that this is the answer, you shouldn’t be having kids with your partner in the first place. I just don’t see how people think it’s a good idea to have kids with someone they don’t trust.

And if it is something you value anyway, look others have said- bring it up BEFORE. That way your partner is more prepared for it rather than having it sprang upon them. If someone asked me for a paternity test randomly without ever expressing their importance of one before, I sure as hell would be offended and judge the trust level in the relationship.

soontobesolo · 2024-09-26T12:20:58+00:00

whose argument was essentially that women can't be trusted

This is where most of the people misunderstand and misinterpret the argument. Trust, but verify. We can still trust them, but with stakes so high, it's worth verifying without question.

statsfodder · 2024-09-26T12:30:12+00:00

The ones shaming men for wanting to be 100% sure of paternity are the same ones that claim all men are predators...

LouisdeRouvroy · 2024-09-26T12:17:16+00:00

Indeed asking for a paternity test just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with,

When you drive me somewhere and I put my seatbelt, does it mean you're not a trusted driver?

Funny how women are always advocating for the most safety measures for themselves, but actively want to deprive the same for others.

Bracelet and alarm on newborn to ensure noone swaps newborns at hospital? Sure. Paternity test? How dare you!

Well, ask those who've taken these DNA ancestry tests and found out interesting things...

relish5k · 2024-09-26T12:34:51+00:00

all of this talk is just mental masturbation. for everyone who waxes on about the obvious righteousness of mandatory paternity testing i’ve yet to see anything remotely serious come out of it in a non-reddit setting.

you’re not serious people.

BearSpray007 · 2024-09-26T13:14:38+00:00

No one should have to ask for a paternity test. It should be mandatory. That way there’s no implied lack of trust, no need to hurt anyone’s feelings by asking, and also it protects men who wouldn’t think to ask who are potential victims of paternity fraud.

Making the test mandatory, makes it simply hospital policy. I have yet to see/hear a reasonable objection to mandatory paternity testing. What I HAVE heard is people trying to focus the conversation on ASKING for paternity tests which comes with all sorts of unnecessary difficulties.

griii2 · 2024-09-26T14:58:11+00:00

I am not arguing for or against it right now, but one thing that is rarely considered is the hue asymmetry in possible outcomes.

Test performed + paternity confirmed = hurt feelings?

Test not performed + paternity fraud = years of life in a lie, huge financial loss, possibly losing the ability to have own children.

Demasii · 2024-09-26T11:55:02+00:00

Human relationships are complicated and people change their minds. You don't truly know how you are going to react until she tells you that she is pregnant.

TBH I think most men who request a paternity test are looking for reasons to break up with the woman now that they face a life permanently linked to her. Nevertheless it's a right that men have to verify the child they will support is biologically theirs (except in France)

At the same time, women have the right to leave a relationship where a man believe that she is capable of such a heinous act.

The only way to solve this problem is to destigmatize testing. Make it normal. A campaign similar to "Shout Your Abortion". If enough men join together to risk losing their relationships change can happen.

VWGUYWV · 2024-09-26T12:14:02+00:00

When else do you commit to 18 years and a huge amount of money based solely on someone’s word?

The argument against this can also be used against prenups. If you’re a wealthy woman that would want a guy to sign a prenup, then I can’t see how you’d view this differently.

Almost every time I didn’t take care of myself explicitly in life, it somehow hit my butt later.

Concreteforester · 2024-09-26T16:33:21+00:00

Id like to re-post something I posted in another thread about paternity tests because I still havne't figured out a good argument against it. I'd like to say though, that this is not from the point of view of a husband asking his wife for a paternity test. It's an argument for paternity tests being mandated by the state, if that makes sense.

Something I haven't really seen raised in any of these threads much: not knowing their real father harms the child.

In the case of a woman committing paternity fraud, the man is a victim. The child is also a victim of fraud and of not knowing their actual medical history (which can cause real problems down the road) and will suffer a loss of immense amounts of time to visit and learn from their biological dad.

The state requires child support in divorce, mandates minimal teaching standards, and mandates parents to provide food, shelter, etc. (among other reasons) for "the best interests of the child". I've been thinking it through and I can't see how the same logic doesn't apply to paternity.

You might be offended and not want have the test done, but lots of people of both genders think that child support is offensive "because they always will take care of their kid". There is also a minority number of people who refuse to put their children in schools or (in the extreme) educate them to the minimal standard required legally. The government and legal system say "fuck your feelings" to that. Why is it okay to exclude the child knowing their true paternity from that list of minimal things the state mandates for children?

alwaysright12 · 2024-09-26T17:05:26+00:00

Yeah

Let's set up a national dna database for paternity and crime

Every time a baby is born we add both their dna and the families dna

Check the paternity and check the dad isn't a rapist or pedophile

Mysterious-Floor-909 · 2024-09-26T12:58:55+00:00

Every man who is unknowingly raising a child that is not his, trusted his woman.

DisplacedBitzer · 2024-09-26T12:59:34+00:00

According to a 2004 poll of 5k women by the Scotsman, HALF of women would be willing to lie about paternity to their partner if they wanted to stay. It’s not that actual rates of fraud are 4% in best estimates. It’s that your partner is willing to lie to you at a 50% rate because they “love” you. Put yourself in the shoes of fathering a child that isn’t your partners who you “love”. Do you tell him even if that means the end of the relationship? 50% said no. And that’s fucking scary as a man.

It’s hypocritical to argue trust when a statistic like that exists. At such a pervasive amount of willingness to breach the man’s trust about paternity, a test is really nothing at all. But, given that most women view it as a breach of trust. I’ll just get a test done secretly when the time comes and absolutely advocate for these secret tests. Best to never even mention paternity tests and just get your certainty quietly. My brother is literally friends with a guy who we are pretty sure is obliviously getting tricked right now. Fuck that.

unhingedtherapist254 · 2024-09-26T22:34:35+00:00

The issue of mandatory paternity testing is a threat to the female dual mating strategy af/bb(the negative emotions from women are only, just a manifestation of this subconscious fear)that's all it can be boiled down to.

Podlubnyi · 2024-09-27T00:10:23+00:00

Indeed asking for a paternity test just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with

It's no more distrustful than a woman objecting to her husband/boyfriend having female friends, or even just female coworkers (and regardless of what excuse she gives, it's really because she's worried he might sleep with them).

Why can't I have dinner with my girl best friend tonight? Don't you trust me?

EnergyOwn6800 · 2024-09-27T00:22:37+00:00

Has nothing to do with trust. Its just about being 100% certain for your own peace of mind.

You could be married to someone for 10 years and trust them but if they decide they want full access to your bank account and credit cards all of a sudden, would denying that mean you don't trust them enough? I wouldn't give my own mother or father that much access and i trust them with my life. It's just about peace of mind.

MyUpSeemsDown · 2024-09-27T21:44:26+00:00

There are different point of views. When one party specifically asks for a test, sure, that is accusatory or otherwise some sort of insecurity and sometimes maybe it's the case that the man actually has some sort of proof to lead to that in first place. However for people who are asking it to be some sort of mandate, the point that is most frequently brought up is about protecting men from serving a child that isn't even his, which the scenario does not involve a specific party in individual elements therefore no one really accused. It's purely in place as a safeguard for men. I believe both points are valid.

AMDisappointment · 2024-09-26T13:40:26+00:00

Why does everyone ignore that DNA testing can be used to detect swapped babies?

Inomaker · 2024-09-26T14:24:20+00:00

Because I recognize that even the most trustworthy person can lie and the most loyal partner can cheat. Foolish to assume something like that couldn't possibly happen to me.

AngelEyes_9 · 2024-09-26T12:01:41+00:00

Indeed asking for a paternity test just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with, leading me to question the quatilty of the choice and ask myself why should one entertain this kind of relation to begin with

It’s not like every pregnant woman discussed with her partner the idea to have kids. Lot of women claim that they are on pills and then say “whoops, something went wrong and now I’m pregnant” but it was totally intentional from their side. I think that this scenario – nowadays very common – is the one where the guy who supposed to be the formal father/provider should be on alert, because there’s a solid chance that he’ll raise and pay for someone else’s offspring. But it’s not like he picked that women to be the mother of his kids, he only trusted her when she said she’s on birth control. That’s not the same, despite I can see many women disputing that lol.

caption291 · 2024-09-26T12:56:58+00:00

just mean the woman doesn't deserve to be trusted to begin with

In my opinion, the most a human could possibly deserve to be trusted would still be less than 100%. So if you have a healthy amount of trust in someone the small chance that you're wrong and you shouldn't trust the person you trusted is significant enough to justify a paternity test.

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DecisionPlastic9740 · 2024-09-26T15:11:20+00:00

Everyone is flawed, nobody is deserving of complete trust.

Teflon08191 · 2024-09-26T16:33:43+00:00

That make me think there should be sound reasons for someone to make that kind of public claim.

She's human, isn't she? Humans have a storied history with cheating, don't they? Women's egos need not bar men from establishing paternal certainty. If they must do it in private, then so be it.

So long as men have protections against being made to support children that aren't theirs then we can sort out the rest from there in a way that minimizes the damage to women's egos.

Comfortable-Dare-307 · 2024-09-26T18:02:19+00:00

Parternity tests are to protect men so they're not responsible for a child that isn't theirs. Womem are untrustworthy. Every relationship I've been in I've been cheated on. But that's my fault, right? Women don't know how to be loyal. If you've got nothing to hide, then why would it bother you?

DeathcoreOnly · 2024-09-26T19:28:10+00:00

The main problem with this debate is that most people try to discuss / debate it whilst not hurting women’s feelings. It’s a men’s issue, the only people’s whose feelings or opinions matter on it are men’s. That’s why women get so angry at the mention of testing, because it hurts their feelings and the world I supposed to bend to her feelings, therefore if a man is raising another man’s child? Oh well. Her feelings matter more. When this is discussed, women should be able to speak on it, but their voices should never matter as much as a man’s.

AreOut · 2024-09-26T11:43:25+00:00

If I want to meet my female friend alone first thing I do is offer my partner to come with us if she wants although I don't plan to cheat. If I was a woman I would absolutely offer a paternity test, however if I was a woman maybe I'd also think differently...

Title	The problem with the paternity test debate
Author	Artistic_Speech_1965
Upvotes	0
Comments	354
Date	September 26, 2024 11:32 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1fptyhr/the_problem_with_the_paternity_test_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-problem-with-the-paternity-test-debate.1531416 https://theredarchive.com/post/1531416

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