Fiction written by women for women proves The Red Pill

pinpointnade · 2022-11-11T14:52:59+00:00

I’d like to throw the Star Wars sequels into the mix. Rey and Kylo deserve a shout.

Steakman1 · 2022-11-11T12:32:11+00:00

I do for the most part agree that the general fantasy in women’s romance is the girl taming a bad boy/violent man. I disagree that with men’s romance it’s just about the girl being hot.

in both types of romance the sought after person is good looking. Like I doubt anyone would’ve cared for the Vampire Diaries if Damon was played by Danny Devito.
Men generally aren’t interested in the romance genre. So any romance catered towards men is usually a sub plot of a movie which means the story has less development.
I’ve noticed a common theme in romance catered towards men is that the sought after woman is with a douchebag boyfriend who treats her like crap. Then the nice guy lead of the movie that’s kind of quirky or nerdy competes with the good looking, douchey boyfriend and ends up stealing her away in the end.

Both romance types are fantasies for a reason. A violent and reckless man likely isn’t going to be tamed by some normal but pretty woman. And if a hot girl has a thing for douchey bad boys that aren’t good for her, the quirky and nerdy guy isn’t going to wake her up and make her see the light.

flamingoinghome · 2022-11-11T13:22:34+00:00

You never actually read these books, did you?

Pride and Prejudice

The Bennetts aren't "indecent"--they're meant to be the Regency equivalent of a sitcom family. The overbearing, meddling mom, the grumpy dad, and the sisters who are always in shenanigans. They're socially equivalent to Mr Darcy and Mr Bingley. Mr Darcy is rich, yes--he's also a shy, awkward dork who stumbles over his feelings and does acts of extreme charity in secret. Hardly a "bad boy."

50 shades of Gray

Ah, yes, the story about the romantically inexperienced man obsessing over and changing everything about himself for a woman he's into. No explanation, indeed.

Twilight

Literally the story of FSoG. Bonus points for Edward's even greater inexperience, and the woman eventually becoming more physically powerful than her husband.

Jane Eyre

Jane Eyre isn't a romcom like P&P; it's a Gothic. It's meant to work differently. It was also a political novel against the divorce laws of its time. Jane also has her own inheritance before she marries Mr Rochester, and her helping him recover from physical injury is a major plot point.

As for fanfiction--you do understand that stories need plot and conflict, right? "This couple are good people who are happy and together" isn't a story; it's description. It's pointless to write. If you want to write a compelling narrative around a relationship, you will need problems to arise.

januaryphilosopher · 2022-11-11T13:27:59+00:00

You're selectively picking examples, as well as picking the things that you want from these examples. Is being rich or bad meant to be what matters here? Most characters you've listed are only one or the other, when they're rich the female lead often is too, and the "bad" ones aren't really bad (but having flaws in romance is often necessary to create any plot).

wallagrargh · 2022-11-11T15:36:20+00:00

Y’all should spend some time in the romance novel sub where they talk constantly about how disgusting they would perceive these men in real life and how their happy marriages are nothing like the characters they read about. Every girl has already dated their version of the romance novel trope, and it always ends terribly.

Grow up, fiction is not real life and women sure as hell know that.

nyanyamuthafukka · 2022-11-11T18:36:34+00:00

Women who love stories with a violent and uber masculine man love those stories for the exact same reason why women love the Anne McCaffrey books about dragonriders. Or horse girls and their horses. Women do tend to live in a world where they are physically and economically at a disadvantage, and it gets worse the further back you go in time. The fantasy is that you live in a society full of monstrous creatures that have all the power that you’re supposed to marry and have children with, but actually this monstrous creature is more powerful than the others and actually is tamed by the end.

The whole point of most of these books is that near the end, there is a grovel. The grovel is the heart of a romance story. It’s when the big scary alphabeast man gets down on the ground and tells her that she was right and he is truly, deeply sorry for the pain he has caused and in fact the thought of having hurt her makes him physically ill and then he takes the rest of the book to take care of her and serve her and do all the things she is normally expected to do for men without reciprocation. It is a bit of an outdated fantasy in some respects, and I usually do not particularly care for pure romance, especially regency stuff, but that is the heart of why these books are popular with cis het women.

But tbh, they are fictional, and anyone trying to argue that this is an actual standard women have en masse is not really being logical about it.

KikiYuyu · 2022-11-11T20:56:22+00:00

Pride and Prejudice: Woman with very little dowry and an indecent family somehow manages to land an ultra rich guy.

This shows how little you understand. Do you know how she gets the guy? By being her smart, incredibly witty self. By not acting submissive and ladylike, but by always speaking her mind.

It's a very big thing for women in general to be loved for our minds, so to attract a man who could have anyone he wanted with your wit is an extremely alluring idea.

Also both Twilight and 50 Shades have been (rightfully) lambasted for the toxic relationships they portray.

They all fantasize about being successful and getting a lot of hot chicks. It's a woman-only fantasy.

If female fantasies prove the redpill true, male fantasies prove the "all men are pigs" narrative true. Let's be real here. If you want to define people by their fantasies you should be willing to do that to yourself.

literaryhogwartian · 2022-11-11T12:01:02+00:00

You may wish to reread Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice....

mrmudzi · 2022-11-11T15:36:12+00:00

Does OP not know that women write genres targeted at female audiences other than romance?

Tell me again how Ursula LeGuin's characters embody any of the nonsense claimed in the OP?

TermAggravating8043 · 2022-11-11T12:50:16+00:00

This doesn’t prove the red pill at all, I’d say it proves the reverse to be honest.

All the lead males that were supposedly drooling over are larger than life characters, rich, powerful intimidating men (even sometimes a vampire) that are in love/obsessed with the normal average girl, he’s devoted completely to her even if she rejects him,

This normal average girl has completely power over this superior male, he’d never plate spin or dump her for a younger model nor would he care about her past relationships, he’s completely hers and for many women this is empowering and a nice fantasy to read

RocinanteCoffee · 2022-11-11T17:18:14+00:00

Jane Eyre: poor servant gets married to rich boss who is also kind of an asshole.

I don't think you quite understood Jane Eyre.

They fall in love because he has always wanted an equal partner not a submissive one and is attracted to her independence (she doesn't like him because he is grumpy sometimes, she likes him because he is one of the few men who sees her as an equal)
She leaves him at the altar when she finds out he has been dishonest and goes off to work with a brother and sister out of town
He gradually evolves into someone not an asshole
She escapes from a sexist evangelist who is trying to pressure her into a cold, traditional, likely sexless marriage
She comes back into town wealthier than he is
She rescues him from peril and saves his life
He is disfigured from the fire and loses his fortune through the burning of the house and they both decide to explore a new relationship since he has dropped a lot of his assholery and also no longer has an ex-wife-who-was-not-quite-an-ex

Ice0Fuchsia · 2022-11-11T15:41:56+00:00

This is such a wild logical fallacy to use a niche as evidence of a whole psychological concept. That’s like saying “remember when Resident Evil Village trailer came out and the internet lost their mind over the mommy dom 9ft vampire mistress? I guess that disproves the red pill”. Femdom has a niche community as well. There’s groups dedicated to large, muscular women. Would you say the existence of these groups disproves red pill?

These things are simply a fantasy, some crazy wild shit that piques your curiosity.

If you really did want to go with this good girl x bad boy direction, go with serial killers. It’s alarming the amount of women who are romantically and sexually interested in men whom killed a bunch of people.

ziriani · 2022-11-11T14:34:11+00:00

I’m shocked at how many people are disagreeing with this. It proves the Red Pill not because of how the lead men in the novels act, but because of the preferences of the lead women. They want men that are richer than them, attractive, callous and that have a bad boy streak, which pretty much proves the concepts of maintaining frame, looksmaxxing and attaining status to get women. I’m a girl and if I was a dude who read women’s romance novels to get an idea of what women wanted, I’d be redpilled in an instant.

Actually, I could even be blackpilled, because although the women in the novels look for economically and socially attractive men, physical attractiveness seems to be the prerequisite to the main female leads showing interest in the male love interest.

2022-11-11T15:59:41+00:00

So you're saying women want men with flaws, and men want women, as long as they're hot and plural? I don't see how this is some sort of gotcha.

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-11-11T17:10:44+00:00

I don’t think most people of any pill persuasion would argue that “hot rich former bad boy fixed by nice girl” isn’t a popular female fantasy. However, this basically never happens in reality, and many red pill leaning guys just take it too far and do, in fact, act like regular guys will never have girlfriends. That’s where “blue pillers” disagree.

Likewise, the male fantasy does seem to be many hot women, or a virginal woman who is sexual just for them (which also happens to describe the heroine in most female-oriented romance stories). She may seem “average,” but in reality, she tends to tick all the boxes of what men supposedly want (young, slim, a virgin). However, I also know that more men than you may think, actually fall into the trap of wanting to fix the bad girl, too. I’ve been dumped for the toxic “crazy” girl and also been the unstable fixer-upper during a rough time in my life. I really did not understand why these guys kept pursuing me when I was flaky, always drinking, underemployed, and just generally not a great person. A lot of guys have a hero complex and think they can save girls like this.

IMendicantBias · 2022-11-11T19:10:44+00:00

imma be honest the obsession with rich guys and 6 figures doesn’t make dating any different than prostitution if that ultimately is all that matters.

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2022-11-11T20:35:43+00:00

You only have a small point with FSoG and Twilight, and the former was originally a fanfic of the other, both written by older women.

I do think there may be a slight trend towards male dominance in some heterosexual women's romances, especially among older women but you also have to take into account what fantasies and fetishers are and how they can be influenced by socialization.

However, I wouldn't say they prove TRP because those men completely pedestalize the female protagonist, something TRP rejects. Both men are under 30 years old too and are emotionally vulnerable in their stories.

Plus NOT ALL WOMEN LIKE THIS. It became famous because of marketing and the taboo of it. I know more women that find Fifty Shades of Grey funny more than anything. After the first film, everyone pretty much lost interest and they flopped.

Out of all the fanfiction that became a worldwide hit, there's a reason this was chosen even though like 90% of fanfiction written by women is actually gay male porn and part of the reason is because the very male-dominated film industry felt more comfortable with a more traditional, patriarchal story that the gay porn ones.

EugeneCezanne · 2022-11-11T22:57:59+00:00

First off, "romance" novels is a distinctly female-targeted genre. What, by comparison, are you calling "books written for men"?

Second, it's normal to fantasize about a lover who is better than you deserve. When I was 13, I had posters of Tyra Banks and Carmen Electra on my wall. My first fictional crush was Princess Jasmine, my dude (who Aladdin didn't deserve, btw).

Third "superior in one way" typically accompanies inferiority in another, like personality. Mr. Darcy was super rich, but socially and emotionally incompetent. That's why she didn't want to marry him, regardless of his money. Same for Christian Grey and Edward Cullen.

Fourth, a women-as-authors-and-auteurs is becoming more popular, we're seeing an increasing number of popular stories in which the female protagonist is indeed the plainly superior one: consider Divergent, Hunger Games, the Wonder Woman films, etc.

Lastly, there has long been a "men like the bad girls" motif in fiction--especially in movies and television. Take Faith from Buffy, Acid Burn from Hackers, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Black Widow, Veronica, Lisbeth Salander. Or from real life, look at Madonna, Miley, Rihanna, etc.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-11-12T07:13:22+00:00

I was a fast-reading snobby book bitch in my teens. Doing at least 50 books a year, these were just another needle to the hay. You could've given me a book on any kind of crazy shit and I would've read it!

nemma88 · 2022-11-11T12:11:38+00:00

proves The Red Pill

50 shades of Gray: No explanation needed.

So being the only one I've actually read I'll focus here. You can pick and choose in these stories which parts you focus on.

Like which part of The Red Pill advises men to simp hard and defer to everything the woman wants because you can't live without her?

Based on the TV adaptation of Jane Eyre, I'd guess 'The man is a simp for her' is part of all of these stories.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-11-11T14:27:30+00:00

OK. First of all 'Proves Red Pill' is somewhat meaningless these days as there is no Red Pill orthodoxy on anything. There are various TRP beliefs on many aspects of gender dynamics.

I do think you are right to say that women do, IDEALLY, desire a man that is superior or above them in some way. Hypergamy is real. But we have to tread carefully here. Trying to articulate what the actual biologically ingrained instincts are behind the various cultural manifestations of hypergamy is very tricky.

You are also conflating this core hypergamous urge with the Bad Boy dynamic. There may be some relation, but what this is is far from clear. There are many Good Boys who are just as powerful, competent and superior to a woman, by whatever metric, as any Bad Boy. Also, even at the 'secret fantasy lust' level, I'd say the Bad Boy desire is less ubiquitous among women as the core hypergamous urge. And of course nothing is completely universal. There are always outlier women.

Think_History_5682 · 2022-11-11T15:58:29+00:00

Yeah Hollywood has it all wrong these days

They're giving you a bunch of woke BS

The whole women are warriors or these like tough man bashing alpha male femalez thing is just so cringy

wtknight · 2022-11-11T16:12:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

YveisGrey · 2022-11-11T17:04:15+00:00

Why would there be more fan fictions for Ron and Hermione if they actually end up together? Isn’t fan fiction usually fans writing alternate scenarios and endings for already developed characters in their favorite novels/movies?

thelajestic · 2022-11-12T11:19:45+00:00

I disagree with your premise that the men are superior - that's entirely down to your own view of what you think is superior. Having money doesn't make you better than someone else.

Pride and prejudice - Elizabeth is written as intelligent, witty, and fairly kind. Darcy is an arrogant man who has closed himself off and is determined to see the worst in people. Elizabeth makes him want to be better and she falls in love with him only after he starts to show kindness and civility and lose the arrogant edge, and because she finds out that he saved her family from potential social ruin but tried to ensure credit was given to her own family instead of him.

I'm not going to go into the rest and I've not read/heard of all of them, but realistically the common trope here isn't that there guy is better than her - it's that he's broken in some way and get influence fixes him and makes him a good person and that's what she then falls in love with. I don't think it's necessarily any better as a trope, I think believing you can "fix" people is also problematic, however the basis of the romance is that, and not anything about the guy being apparently "better".

And in books written by men:

David Eddings Belgariad/Mallorean - the scullery boy marries the imperial princess. The blacksmith marries the most powerful woman in the world. And his Sparhawk ones, the Knight marries the Queen.

The notebook - she's rich and he's a labourer.

Atonement - she's wealthy and he's not

A walk to remember - I have a fuzzy recollection of this but pretty sure she's really nice and he's a bit of a dick and he's inspired to be better because of her.

Far from the madding crowd is pretty red pilled - she's rich, he's not, she rejects his advances until all her other suitors are dead and then agrees to marry him, but that's written by a man.

Not a focus on them being hot - they all have differing power dynamics in the same way you mention about the books written by women, but flipped - when the men write, they write about the men being the poor ones with no prospects landing these rich women.

gargayle · 2022-11-11T14:21:52+00:00

It almost like publishing houses focus on publishing books that align with mainstream concepts because they insist they’re the most likely to sell 😮. There are stories for just about any dynamic, not all of them are mainstream because the mainstream is usually tailored to the status quo/current societal standard. This post does nothing but prove a point about what publishing houses see as profitable.

ConsultJimMoriarty · 2022-11-11T19:55:51+00:00

You're completely leaving out that fanfiction written by women is more likely to be Draco/Harry, than Draco/Hermione.

2022-11-11T15:14:50+00:00

So this means all women like the same stuff?

I’ve never watched or read any of these and I never really read fanfiction that site was too weird.

KombuchaEnema · 2022-11-11T12:14:47+00:00

If that’s the case, why do men pursue a certain type of woman for hooking up and an entirely different type of woman for marriage?

Your argument completely ignores the existence of the Madonna-Whore complex.

I guarantee when men are fantasizing about fucking, they aren’t thinking about the virgin good girl who would be a good wife and mother.

They’re thinking about the hot stripper or porn star “bad girl” who would get on top of him and bang his brains out.

It’s the same thing.

Cjaylyle · 2022-11-11T13:33:55+00:00

Draco Malloy is not a sex symbol

EmeraldsFaure · 2022-11-11T16:30:00+00:00

Only certain types of women read romance fictions and fanfics. They’re likely to fit into stereotypes, therefore these romance novels are written tailored to their taste. I don’t know anyone who reads romance novels, those novels are tacky IMO.

Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre are not romance novels BTW. Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are so badly written they’re like parodies. I tried reading Twilight but couldn’t get past 30 pages, it was so awful.

Kobe_curry24 · 2022-11-11T15:13:08+00:00

Just listen to womens music it even depicts Redpill views I mean Taylor Swifts says I broke his heart cause he was “nice “ this her new album Lmfaoooo or mastermind how she plans everything out

MP8877 · 2022-11-11T16:29:31+00:00

I found it laughable when “Sex/Life” on Netflix came out followed by its immediate popularity with women. Same with “Call Her Daddy”.

Then they still try to claim “It’s not like that in reality!” or “That’s not what women really want!”.

HA!

Watch what they do, not what they say.

sfalgo · 2022-11-11T17:19:33+00:00

I think it was a Gad Saad video I watched once where he said an analysis of romance novels revealed that the top five male protagonists were:

doctor
lawyer
tycoon
vampire
werewolf

onlytheleaves · 2022-11-11T18:53:48+00:00

what os this awful misrepresentation of jane eyre and pride and prejudice

lulll · 2022-11-11T15:42:35+00:00

all the romantic novels and smut women write and read only really proves that the women who read and write it are damaged and weird

Bdog5k · 2022-11-11T17:01:52+00:00

There is a book called “ a billion wicked thoughts”

It’s about this

You would prob love it

EugeneCezanne · 2022-11-11T22:18:10+00:00

Hmm, 36M here: I have always liked the "bad" girls, in fantasy and real life.

Some guys like Betty, some like Veronica. Some like Buffy, some like Faith. Don't overgeneralize.

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BatGuy1288 · 2022-11-11T14:39:24+00:00

TL;DR only wanna know if this applies to Frankenstein

Kobe_curry24 · 2022-11-11T15:09:44+00:00

Well a women directed American psycho think about that Lmfaoooo

JoeRMD77 · 2022-11-11T17:29:33+00:00

Except a lot of women are marrying Matthew McConaughey types that are Failure to Launch just because they're attractive.

Angelio72 · 2022-11-11T20:52:57+00:00

I wonder how many feminist who claim to he semi intellectuall have read a second sex, I mean that should be where you go first.

I always wondered that with al the feminist tattoo i see in sweden i bet most people with this tattoos haven't even read a second sex lol

Conscious_Ad_6572 · 2022-11-11T23:20:15+00:00

On yea

I read twilight, it’s pure nonsense: girl just exists Zero work , unlike any hero like goku or Superman

Super rich tall handsome guy likes her,, only her mind he can’t read.

But I did like the 1st movie though, I

2022-11-12T00:07:03+00:00

I’m a former Red Pill woman and I think there are two types of women: followers and leaders. Female followers will be drawn to male leaders and stuff like that, but feminists and female leaders will seek out male supporters.

I’m a female follower, though a guy’s girl and not a girl’s girl (despite how I dress).

piggybrickhouse · 2022-11-12T02:41:14+00:00

I always thought the bad boy trope disproved TRP. Bad boys are youthful devious little suckers. It goes against the idea of women wanting a stable, mature, career man. They don't. They want young, fun, pretty bad boys (who are uber sweet to their girlfriend).

SoIlikeMangos · 2022-11-12T05:37:10+00:00

Since when a bunch of horny teenagers are the norm

ElectricBugs · 2022-11-12T05:56:41+00:00

You cannot go by books written 200 y ars ago as to modern women. So that rules a few of those out.

50 Shades is not romance it is erotica which has a different purpose for women.

Modern romances written by women are actually a lot more empowering but you haven't seemed to focus on those at all, I wonder why? No I don't. It's because it doesn't actually suit your argument.

Many women don't even read romance fiction. Many men and women fantasise about things that are not relevant to real life. You've not used relevant current data, no even read modern romance to gain a proper insight nor develop an educated view of women's romance fiction. Do that and you might be in for a ride awakening

-royalmilktea- · 2022-11-12T08:47:35+00:00

Wait, I thought the red pill was the recognition that men are disadvantaged in society because the nature of women is such that they consistently use men to their own benefit and the men's detriment. What are we saying is the red pill now?

Notsonewguy7 · 2022-11-12T21:33:32+00:00

Really this is a lot less complex than you you want this to be. Heterosexual women desire men that have different traits than them men due to cultural stereotypes are viewed as being less civil and polite than women are as such since women are seeking men and men are attributed with these traits these traits become more attractive to women we see this within races as well.

Its common for you to hear certain African American men state that certain traits in black men are perceived as more attractive than other traits even if those traits are perceived generally as negative why because women are attracted to men and to be black man is in some ways to have some attribute of that traits (subconsciously presumed).

I presume the same thing would be true for white or Asian or Indian or Middle Eastern men but I'm not as familiar with those stereotypes.

Joyful-Adsorption · 2022-11-12T22:29:16+00:00

I think you miss an important point in female romance. It's the bad boy that the girl ends up changing. The asshole who cares for no one is suddenly infatuated with the girl and changes his personality.

Being a girl can be scary, physically. Once we hit early high school age, you realize how all the guys are bigger than you (super shorty here), mucularly even for the rare few that are your same height or even smaller.

There is something about taking a man, this human who is more powerful that you, and shows his emotions as anger and potential violence (where you tend more to cry even when really angry, which boys do not find threatening) and making him the weak and vulnerable one. It is legit one of the rare times in your life as a woman you feel any sense of power. Think about, strip all society away, all rules and laws, and a woman is really not threatening much. It's a frustration we deal with as soon as boys hit puberty and tell us we're cute when we're angry, or make sexual comments and laugh if we're uncomfortable. So gaining some power as a female is safety, and the easiest way biologically/historically was through a relationship with a man. (Now we get careers.)

The more brawny and more masculine traits in the man in the story, the more of a wall he's put up, and the sweeter is the woman's conquest, especially if she is not even attempting to seduce the guy, he just can't help himself.

This is the recurring theme in romance. It's not the money or status of the man that is important, but the amount of influence the thought of the woman has in shaping who the man becomes, and theres just more to change if hes a rich A-hole. Because there are a ton of romance novels where the woman leaves money for the ordinary man.

That's the female romance novel formula, in a nutshell.

sodeaira · 2022-11-15T19:49:16+00:00

Had no idea purple pill existed wtf is it

perc30yeet · 2022-12-02T12:56:41+00:00

youre assuming alot considering that men write all those fanfics

Title	Fiction written by women for women proves The Red Pill
Author	Novel-Tip-7570
Upvotes	176
Comments	236
Date	November 11, 2022 11:03 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ys7aso/fiction_written_by_women_for_women_proves_the_red/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/fiction-written-by-women-for-women-proves-the-red.1139010 https://theredarchive.com/post/1139010

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