Virginity or modesty in women - seems like it’s both looked down upon and cherished

Zippo-Cat · 2021-05-23T17:58:38+00:00

There's an old and slightly cringy but basically true saying: Men want a good girl that will be bad only for him, and women want a bad boy who will be good only for her.

LittyKitsune · 2021-05-23T19:21:43+00:00

As long as you care about what society "cherishes" as some kind of universal hivemind you're going to notice inconsistencies like this. Different people have different wants and motivations; nothing will change this, you can't make everyone happy. My virginity earned praise and getting called "mentally ill" by the same dude in a week, the only change was him realizing that he wasn't some kind of magical exception who could get in my pants if he pushed the right buttons.

You have to make the choices that are best for you, and then select for individuals who value that.

bowserfire73 · 2021-05-23T20:28:09+00:00

They are looked down / cherished by different groups of people.

Guys who want relationships cherish modest women and look down on promiscuous women.

Guys who want hookups cherish promiscuous women and look down on modest women.

7SovarN · 2021-05-23T20:50:17+00:00

The only people who view chaste women negatively are rakish men looking to pump and dump. The Chad and Stacey memes where created by (primarily male) social outcasts as a caricature of the people they viewed as being at the top of the social hierarchy. Take Chad for instance: they're portratyed as big, strong, good-looking and sexually succesful, but also as dumb, rude, inconsiderate, short-sighted and concerned with nothing but pleasure seeking. Does this sound like someone being put on top of a pedestal?

I don't know where we've ended up when negative caricatures are held as something to strive towards.

alberto-hoff · 2021-05-23T21:32:28+00:00

Super modest and virginal girls/ women have their own obstacles in dating, they're seen as frigid and low libido. Additionally, many men dislike the idea of waiting long periods of time to have sex with the woman they're dating.

Of course everyone should have sex and date at their own pace, and find someone with a similar level of experience.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-05-23T19:29:10+00:00

By two different groups of men, yes.

Some men appreciate modesty because they're more relationship oriented.

Other men dislike modesty because they're more promiscuity oriented and these women are harder to sleep with.

midwestufohunter · 2021-05-23T19:40:34+00:00

No men wanted to date me when I was a virgin.

I think modesty is fucked when it comes from men but I am LOVING the modesty trend that is coming in right now because it's coming from women who just want to cover up so men stop paying attention to us. Feels very healthy!

cloudsongs_ · 2021-05-23T21:50:15+00:00

Yup, which is why you can't win with this crowd. If a woman is not interested in any of these dudes, she's doing something wrong 🙄

DXBrigade · 2021-05-23T23:06:47+00:00

Only tradcons and incels want a virgin modest woman.Most men want someone in the middle (not too slutty, not virgin). Also the hotter the girl, the less they care about her being promiscuous.

BlindMaestro · 2021-05-23T23:27:12+00:00

America isn’t a monoculture. There are portions of society (usually urban, secular, left-leaning) that celebrate it, and there are others (rural, religious, right-leaning) that do not. In terms of proportions, it’s hard to say which is greater, but I’d wager the former group outnumbers the latter. There may be a generational aspect to it as well. The fact that it’s not equally accessible makes some dudes embittered to it, but that doesn’t negate the fact that unrestricted sociosexual orientations imperil monogamous relationships and marriages. It could be that this would be the inevitable trajectory of an irreligious, technologically sophisticated society where contraceptives are widely available and all our basic needs are met.

Digedag · 2021-05-23T18:04:37+00:00

Dresses modestly, doesn’t sleep around = subpar

Where did you hear that?

stats135 · 2021-05-23T18:16:06+00:00

Stacy is simply the female equivalent of Chad. Both of which is simply shorthand for being attractive for their respective genders. It has nothing to do with promiscuity or how they dress. Both men and women can be attractive and not sleep around. The memes just need low effort ways of visually portraying attractiveness, it is not meant to signify anything about virginity or modest or imply the characteristics as subpar.

ivy176 · 2021-05-24T02:37:34+00:00

In terms of an individual having conflicting feelings about women's sexual activity, such as a man who wants a virgin but is not willing to wait until commitment or marriage to have sex - they have this weird idea that no/low count women will suddenly adopt all the benefits of a promiscuous woman (give him sex very quickly, be confident, adventurous etc) but ONLY for him. So actually, they prefer the stereotypical sexual personality of a woman who's sexually experienced but they want it wrapped up in a virgin package - which makes no sense. Someone's sexual behaviour is often a personality trait and an inherent way that they view sex. Expecting low count women to be so attracted to you that they "give it up" is expecting her to abandon her views, her personality, her cautiousness, her morals, her discerning nature with sex, which if she could magically change that, she wouldn't have been a virgin or low count person in the first place because her reasons would be flimsy or not authentic to her - just pushed by upbringing or a simple lack of opportunity. Same applies to men. It's just in your nature to only have sex with a select person/few people or it's not, and even if you meet the love of your life, you still retain your personality and usual behaviour.

Basically it's just men fetishizing virginity, or being threatened by experienced women. They don't necessarily value the traits or personality type that cause a low count, they just want it for themselves, for the sake of a fantasy, and then they want to move onto scenes that they're more familiar with in porn. I'm low count and I've had men act like that's a good thing, but then they get argumentative if I say I wait until we're in a committed relationship to have sex. That typically takes years of knowing someone including friends first, for me. They say that's OUTRAGEOUS and I have issues. But I thought you liked that I was low count? How do you think people remain low count? They also attack my spiritual or what others call "religious" beliefs, which is stupid because even if I was low count because of a religious upbringing, you LIKED IT. But I'm not low count because of religion, I would call myself more spiritual than religious and I was raised in an atheist household where I wasn't advised to avoid sex and my parents were letting a boyfriend sleep over in my bed when I was 13. So no... I'm not low count because of upbringing.

When people want a low/no count partner for valid reasons, it's because they are also low/no count and it's an important value to them, also making it vital for sexual and romantic compatibility. Someone who views sex as sacred between life partners does not want to be with someone who views sex as something fun to do with strangers. Also it's about WANTING to be low/no count, not being forced into it. If someone is only low count because they had less opportunity or no confidence, but they'd happily be at 30 if they had it their way, that's not having the traits of someone who is reserved with sex.

Orange_Paisley · 2021-05-23T18:00:53+00:00

There is nothing you can do that will please everybody. So do what works best for you. If you don’t want to have sex with random men, DON’T. Those men will call you a whore either way so don’t accommodate them.

nyclaurco · 2021-05-24T00:22:50+00:00

it’s because everything we do is wrong.

if we like certain male-coded hobbies, we’re faking it to be cool for guys or learned it from an ex. if we like female-coded hobbies, they’re extremely stupid, vapid, and pointless, and we don’t even have real hobbies.

if we do well in school and work, we’re bad mothers and wives or don’t care about perpetuating the human race as birthers and caregivers, but if we don’t, we’re useless gold diggers.

if we wear makeup, hair styles and dye, nails, and nice feminine clothes, we’re promiscuous, vain, and arrogant. if we don’t, we’re sloppy, bitter lesbians.

if we’re fat, we’re ugly (unhealthy, slovenly). if we’re skinny, we’re ugly (boyish, breakable). if we’re muscular, we’re ugly (masculine, punished for being intimidating as a woman). if we’re curvy, we’re sometimes ugly, but more often than not highly sexualized and very slutty, maybe not even human. if we’re somehow perfectly average, we’re manly or weird-looking or hairy... some insult will be invented.

if we’re too kind and open, we deserved to be raped or groped. if we’re too standoffish to avoid this, we’re cold, arrogant bitches.

if we’re funny, we don’t make any sense. we’re mean. we aren’t seen as people who can be sarcastic or make jokes. if we’re funny in the way that we’re supposed to be (amy schumer fatty blow job sex period men comedy), then we’re not funny.

if we’re beautiful, we’re mean because we’ve had everything served to us easily as beauties, but if we’re ugly, we’re mean because we’re mad at the world and jealous of other women.

if we major in the sciences, tech, or a hard business track, we did affirmative action. if we major in art, liberal studies, or something more social, we’re stupid and useless.

if we have sex with men, we’re sluts. if we don’t, we’re rude and prude. but really... why would a man dislike someone who’d have sex with them? they don’t. they dislike a woman who has sex with seemingly everyone but still won’t do it for him. what a slap in the face that you’re uglier and more boring and poorer than those 45 other guys who she drained.

nemporisso · 2021-05-23T17:57:00+00:00

Yes, this is called the virgin-whore dichotomy. There's literature around it if you care to look

BarestBranch · 2021-05-23T18:36:59+00:00

It seems like a woman can’t do anything right???

Welcome to patriarchy

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-05-24T02:15:43+00:00

Well what society/men really cherish in women is looks. No interest in ugly modest virgins. The fantasy is a beautiful virgin who is modest but not too modest in public and a total slut at home just for him. However, they’ll still pick on attractive and unattractive women alike for anything and everything. Women really can’t do anything right.

XtoDoubt · 2021-05-23T17:59:50+00:00

It sounds like, since Stacy has less clothes than Becky, women like that are portrayed as only behaving like that (“saving themselves”, dressing modestly, not extreme amounts of makeup) because they don’t have the power or whatnot of a Stacy, thus being subpar to the Stacy,

Maybe we should start modding all posts.

xXx_FireHydrants_xXx · 2021-05-23T18:44:58+00:00

It's meant to an exaggeration, like the Chad version gives him something like an 18" dick.

debaterbob · 2021-05-24T09:10:39+00:00

I have a question. Just saw a comment that said “if you’re not a virgin, I won’t pay for dates/provide for you etc. because I won’t pay for what other guys got for free.” Can someone explain this line of thinking so I can better understand? Is it to avoid being the guy a chick tells to wait for sex and pay for dates while she has/had casual sex without such a commitment with other guys? What if a girl was not a virgin but only had sex in relationships - is LTRing her still paying for what other guys got for free/less

NinjaOfTheSouth · 2021-05-23T18:15:14+00:00

Yes men want modesty and chaste from their girlfriends. That’s what most men want but society deems you insecure or toxic if you say this since it’s seen as controlling .

tofucultleaded · 2021-05-23T23:01:59+00:00

This is why I encourage women to do whatever tf they want. Men won’t like it either way

_Oh_Be_Nice_ · 2021-05-24T00:38:41+00:00

See: Madonna/Whore Complex

Freud wrote: "Where such men love they have no desire and where they desire they cannot love."

Some women do this to men as well.

A woman wants a bad boy who's only good to her, but gets bored of even that after a while.

WillFred213 · 2021-05-23T18:49:28+00:00

It's really simple. Don't worry about this negative view that "a woman can't do anything right" that you believe "generally" everyone has.

If you want to turn off the men who want a committed LTR: dress more like Stacey.

If you want to turn off the men who just want a night of fun: dress more like Becky.

Your girlfriends are going to judge you regardless of what you dress like.

QuenchlessGato · 2021-05-23T19:09:26+00:00

Stacies are cherished because they are a source of "easy" sex.

Beckies are cherished because they make for good wives.

In general, a woman who easily provides sex is not seen as a good wife material, and a woman who is chaste/modest is not seen as a good source of sex. Different men want different things.

wtknight · 2021-05-23T19:50:58+00:00

Promiscuity in women is cherished when men are in their own promiscuous phase. It's looked down upon when he wants to settle down, find love and have a family. The connotation of TRP is that women are supposed to not have sex freely with high value men, but in a society where there are no negative consequences for women to express their sexuality freely, they are going to choose to have sex with high value man because they get "the tingles" and can't control themselves around them.

This is why one of the most oft-repeated phrases of TRP is "Enjoy the decline." The ideal world for a TRPer is one in which there are a few very promiscuous women who will freely have sex with them when men are horny, but where most women will wait and have sex with them only when men are ready to settle down. But because we live in a "declining" world where women can express themselves sexually freely with high-value men, it's up to men to improve themselves if they want to have sex with high-value "Stacies".

Most Red Pillers don't really think that modest "Beckies" actually exist. There are promiscuous Stacies and promiscuous Beckies, and therefore what is important is being able to be the type of guy who can have sex with and plate as many high-value Stacies as possible.

luliloo · 2021-05-23T21:14:34+00:00

Men want women who are confident and sexual with a low body count.

Promiscuous women are for a good time but you don’t want a promiscuous wife. On the other hand, they want modest women but not someone shy and insecure in bed, ex. Scared to give a blowjob or have the lights on in bed, etc.

velvetunderground111 · 2021-05-24T10:35:23+00:00

The Madonna/whore paradigm at work.

Exvareon · 2021-05-23T23:35:05+00:00

When men say "We want a modest girl that doesn't dress slutty", we don't mean her dressing like a nun in church, we just mean:

- we don't want someone that shows so much cleavage that basically half her boobs are hanging out of her shirt, or wears something that is basically underwear for public. No cleavage is preferable

- No stuff like leggings that make your ass jiggle around as you walk. You can use "comfort" as an excuse to wear those in public, but we all know why women wear it, and even if that isn't the case, we still don't deem it appropriate.

- Skirts are no shorter than knee-length.

- Clothes aren't super tight to the point where people know what you look like beneath the clothes. Even if it's form-fitting, there is a certain threshold where it's obvious it's too much, and we all know it when we see it.

- Some guys are fine with it, but for some guys, crop-tops are a no-go, and having that much of your waist visible is inappropriate for them.

Laytheblameonluck · 2021-05-23T18:41:57+00:00

Stacey and Becky are the same woman, it's the feminist ideal. The optimum female sexual strategy.

Stacey is the alpha fuck stage, Becky is the beta buck stage.

Some women can Becky, but never get to Stacey.

Others, Stacey but have too much cock to Becky.

It's the Patriarchy's fault.

Without men, Stacey and Becky would be best friends.

Guys don't want a Stacey or a Becky.

But this isn't about men. Men can go fuck themselves. They are only useful for sex or money.

reluctantly_red · 2021-05-23T19:18:12+00:00

Only a certain subset of guys give a shit about virginity or modesty.

Personally I love sluts -- especially in revealing clothing.

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M4sterDis4ster · 2021-05-23T21:31:53+00:00

I am not sure that dressing is the only thing which actually shows how do you treat sex.

There are women who can dress revealingly and yet be considered hard to get.

There are men in suits everywhere you go. Are they all high class or highly educated? Can any man wear a suit ? If you ask me, definitely not. Its about personality and how you handle yourself.

Correct_Philosophy_3 · 2021-05-23T23:07:58+00:00

Virginity or modesty in women - seems like it’s both looked down upon and cherished

When you make that statement in general terms, then yes, you'll get a paradox because it is true that virginity is looked down upon and cherished. The key part is that the looking down upon and cherishing is being done by different people. For instance, a conservative Catholic/Christian community that puts a lot of emphasis on purity and early marriage will cherish virginity and modesty. They're going to praise it, not look down upon it. There will be other social groups that look down upon it, e.g. groups of women or men who think that it's better to have lots of sex with lots of partners.

If you'd like to talk about understanding, it's important to specify the context and the group you're talking about.

What is a modest woman then or women that actually do not “ride the carousel” or what it’s called? It sounds like, since Stacy has less clothes than Becky, women like that are portrayed as only behaving like that (“saving themselves”, dressing modestly, not extreme amounts of makeup) because they don’t have the power or whatnot of a Stacy, thus being subpar to the Stacy, yet at the same time that is held up as an ideal. It seems like a woman can’t do anything right??? Dresses revealingly, sleeps around = put on pedestal but also a slut. Dresses modestly, doesn’t sleep around = put on pedestal but also subpar. I have as mentioned very little knowledge of these communities or values or the memes, so I don’t have a point or so I just want to understand.

Who is Stacy? Who is Becky in this context? Who is saying that Stacy saving herself is subpar to Becky?

Being put on a pedestal means being placed as higher than oneself or being idealized, so being subpar and pedestalized are mutually exclusive. As for doing anything right, neither men nor women can do anything right if we're talking about generalities because there will always be some individual or sub-group that disapproves of something.

If you want to know what is right, socially speaking, define the social group you want to appeal to. For instance, are you looking for sex-positive men and women? Great, act that way and disregard the socially conservative or other people. Are you looking to be more modest, but worry that people will look down on you? Seek out the communities that support that.

Caluber1 · 2021-05-24T01:03:23+00:00

It's a big world out there -- You'll find people of every sort. Unfortunately, in this modern day of the internet, that means you'll see nearly all of them at one point or another.

Decide what you believe and use it to make yourself the best person that you can. You can deal with anyone who disagrees along the way.

Xaviermanx2 · 2021-05-24T01:06:40+00:00

I wouldn't want a virgin girl as a hookup. But its def not a negative thing for wife material, tho I don't look for it like some dudes.

But anyone saying that men would rather some 50 n count whore be their wife than a virgin is wylin.

flowerwoven · 2021-05-24T01:41:48+00:00

What Stacy memes or drawings have you seen that aren't modest? The only official Stacy drawing I know is the blue shirt wojak girl that goes next to the Chad yes man.

I imagine Becky to be a little less modest than Stacy (but not immodest) to make up for the fact that she's not as pretty as Stacy.

Stacy is like the cute and hot, nice, popular blonde who's been dating the same Chad since 7th grade. I've never remotely considered Stacy to sleep around or dress revealing.

RDelbson · 2021-05-24T01:59:14+00:00

There is a negative view of promiscuous women because they make worse long-term relationship prospects.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, because I disagree with all of it. I associate women that dress revealingly with sluttiness, which I look down upon. I associate women who dress modestly with chastit--actually I'm lying, I don't, I think they're also sleeping around, which I look down upon.

lavenderhoneywoods · 2021-05-24T02:17:17+00:00

I think many men fantasize that a woman will be a slut just for them. It’s a nice fantasy, not different from the common female fantasy that a cold or mean or jerk guy will be kind and loving to only them.

In the real world there are more conservative and more liberal approaches to dating and sex and people seek out what they want in a partner. More conservative men seek our more conservative women and vie versa.

dres_sler · 2021-05-24T02:24:00+00:00

I’ve never heard any guy look down upon virgin women

ironmanalex97 · 2021-05-24T02:46:05+00:00

TLDR I think people want moderation. Honestly I think the memes are kinda stupid. What I think most guys want myself included is a girl who is fun and adventurous but not someone who is promiscuous. I think the reason of why virginity is seen as a loved and hated thing is that the ideal that people have is you find that one person who makes you comfortable enough so that they are willing to try many things. But what often times happens is that most people get into relationship where they try to escalate intimacy before they or their partner are truly comfortable. Some girls who are virgins will not be willing to do anything sexual and may never be ready while someone who was comfortable in the past may be ready and willing to do something again. I think that in truth people want moderation, not someone who is too one way or the other. Like maybe your in your 20s and the girl you meet has had 3 to 5 previous sexual partners (numbers are subjective and don’t really matter). Where as a girl who has had none or 20 is seen as a problem. Granted I think people are also more forgiving on those who don’t indulge then those who over indulge.

ContinuityOfCircles · 2021-05-24T03:20:12+00:00

The minutes you waste thinking about what a guy wants are minutes wasted doing what YOU want. 🤷🏻‍♀️

2021-05-24T03:20:13+00:00

Both men and women can be envious of the advantages of being a sexually open woman. We can also associate this trait in women with unfaithfulness and hedonism.

We can associate modesty in women with self control and sacrifice. But we can also feel that they are being unnecessarily sexually repressed.

peachycreaam · 2021-05-24T03:21:55+00:00

like I said in a response, most men in the world are tradcons. They like women who dress provocatively and are conventionally attractive but aren’t promiscuous. I’ve never heard of promiscuous women being “cherished”.

Inevitable_Gain_7456 · 2021-05-24T03:25:44+00:00

Stacies are worldly goddesses but also fallen trash.

Scarypaperplates · 2021-05-24T03:32:07+00:00

Indeed, when I have spoken about this on here i've also been called a liar (not sure why, what benefit would it be to me here?) and that there has to be something wrong with me etc.

cast-away-ramadi06 · 2021-05-24T03:35:41+00:00

I'm not sure what's up with the stacy vs back stuff. But I'm never holding modesty against women. I will if she's dressing too skimpy. If she was a virgin (unusual at my age of early 30s), I'd be ok waiting until marriage.

As long as a woman is in shape and average looking, I'm much more concerned with who she is as a person. Will she make a good wife & mother, that type of stuff.

SouthernGrass3 · 2021-05-24T03:37:08+00:00

I think many people want a woman (or man, for women who want a relationship) who has the ability to easily attract sex/ relationships with high value partners, but makes the decision not to use it, except for very special situations/ you.

I don’t think I’ve met any woman, save for extremely religious women who want religious men, who would actually meet the TRP ideal (very high RMV/ SMV/family oriented/socially engaging/ smart) while being a virgin, because every girl I’ve ever met like this, lost her virginity (usually to a similar status serious boyfriend) in, or a little after high school.

Beyond highschool, I have not observed women being made fun of for being inexperienced; I have observed people criticize at women (and men) who had attributes that might make it harder to lose their virginity (at least under favorable conditions.)

Impressive-Spot-1191 · 2021-05-24T04:16:10+00:00

honestly i think most of the shaming of modest/chaste women is either from women who are slutty or feminists who think that being modest or chaste is PaTrIaRcHy

men dont really care

2021-05-24T06:03:21+00:00

[deleted]

SaltyFatNuts · 2021-05-24T06:47:47+00:00

Personally idc if a woman’s promiscuous besides we’re all just horny apes a lot of guys don’t like promiscuous girls because they don’t have as many options as women do

Kanedy29 · 2021-05-24T09:44:47+00:00

Cherished in young women, like those under 25 who apparently are the only ones who can get d*ck. It fulfills the young and pure maiden fantasy that a lot of men have and desire in their partners.

But virginity in older women is usually mocked. "Are you a 30 y/o virgin? Did no man want you?" etc. Now this isn't just for women ofc, it is for men as well. So you do have men and women who are, apparently, incels, cause they couldn't find sexually compatible partners. That is not to say weirdos do not exist.

2021-05-24T09:56:28+00:00

Almost like chicks can't win...

TheDevilPutD · 2021-05-24T10:55:48+00:00

I for one like sluts. They know how to fuck. You can take your virgins who can't distinguish between good and bad dick, just as you want. But one day they will start wondering how this guy or that guy's dick tastes like and they may end up liking it much better than yours.

snowwy28 · 2021-05-24T11:54:34+00:00

It's called the madonna whore complex... its confusing as fuck

PM_ME_STRIPPERS · 2021-05-29T11:48:15+00:00

the worst enemy for women is other women. (When you exclude religious and conservative
opinion bullshit out of the mix which is usually a very small percentage). seriously no one but other women give a fuck

excess_inquisitivity · 2021-05-24T01:44:13+00:00

It's like there are many different people with contrasting opinions.

Or something.

Title	Virginity or modesty in women - seems like it’s both looked down upon and cherished
Author	Embarrassed-Bee-7081
Upvotes	132
Comments	342
Date	May 23, 2021 5:54 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/njd2iz/virginity_or_modesty_in_women_seems_like_its_both/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/virginity-or-modesty-in-women-seems-like-its-both.756538 https://theredarchive.com/post/756538

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