the birth rate topic is silly

Numerous-Month-7688 · 2026-07-29T20:19:54+00:00

it does not work as appeal to women. even if it did what woman is then going to walk to nearest man ask to marry then milk him. no if its that worry the more...

[–]Top_River6479Purple Pill Man 26 points27 points28 points 1 week ago (34 children) | Copy Link

The birth rate decline is based on such a confluence of issues that both sides are right. The political right it is correct that the expansion of women’s rights has contributed to the birth rate decline. The political left is also right because there is not a lot of incentive or help with raising children or parental leave. The birth rate decline is happening from such a confluence of different issues that there’s no real solution.

Anecdotally from my experience, living amongst many male and female young professionals, the biggest factor in the decline is that having children really just makes life unnecessarily harder. People would rather have more money and time to travel to foreign countries or play video games or go out to bars on the weekends or play golf all day rather than having children. Most of the people around me could afford children and would probably be good parents, but it just gets in the way of doing fun things.

Funny enough, most of the people I know that are having children are not young professionals, are not providing stable homes for their children, and frankly are not living good lives. Again it’s not every parent I know but most of the people who would typically have provided great lives to children and would have had 3 to 4 kids just aren’t having them even married couples

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Oh, well like they already said birth control and abortions make it a larger factor than men's increase in rights would be. Also women have been the more historically oppressed gender, so an increase in their rights and ability to choose will have a disproportionate effect on birth rates compared to men, since they gained more rights over time proportionately. So since it's not symmetrical, it's valid to single them out as a disproportionate effect. They also explicitly said it's not a reason to roll back women's rights. Purely descriptive.

I'm fine with reading between the lines. But just make that argument. You made two arguments that were wrong because you were attacking the literal statement but you used that as a proxy to attack another sinister intent that you read between the lines. Instead you should attack whatever thing you see between the lines directly so that people can actually have a substantive back and forth with you. You know what reading between the lines is? Making assumptions. Not everyone will make the same assumption as you. So be explicit if you actually want to communicate.

[–] Terrible_Mixture_759 gettin killed by a pretty good life (Man) [score hidden] 1 day ago * (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] justsomething Purple Pill Man - Feminist MRA [score hidden] 1 day ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah, well as far as this thread that I have been involved with has gone, this is the first time you have actually made this argument. You have NOT been saying that they are symmetrical factors, you just said that it is not a unique factor, which has nothing to do with the weight of either factor. This is why you should communicate more explicitly.

So what proof do you have that the intuitive answer is wrong? Show me the data that you so confidently base your opinion on.

Besides intuition I have some studies:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4096045/

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/657081

https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/651/pdfs/female-education-and-its-impact-on-fertility.pdf

Here's one that points out that men typically prefer having more kids:

https://tertilt.vwl.uni-mannheim.de/research/Doepke_Tertilt_2018.pdf

Here's a study that says that when men gain more rights and power they tend to have MORE children, not less:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29502546/

These all point to an increase in women's rights leading to lower birth rates. They also point to a higher birth rate when men gain rights. And since women gain MORE rights than men do (since they already had more) and women gain UNIQUE rights (like birth control and abortion) you would have to also explain how men gaining fewer rights (that women also gained) led to a symmetrical reduction in birth rate. Which none of these studies support.

So, it seems like my position is quite well borne out by the data. Let's see your data. Or will you just block me now because you are clearly just making shit the fuck up at this point?

[–] Terrible_Mixture_759 gettin killed by a pretty good life (Man) [score hidden] 14 hours ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You clearly do not know my argument as you're citing studies that show increase of female status (education/income) with a decrease in fertility. I've never argued against this.

They also point to a higher birth rate when men gain rights.

Where? That study doesn't measure the change in educational advancement or income:

When male fertility is measured separately, high-status men (as measured by their wealth and personal income) have higher fertility than low-status men, even in very low-fertility societies, so individual males appear to be maximizing their fitness within the constraints posed by a modern society.

This is not measuring men gaining rights, just higher status vs lower status.

Let's see your data.

Rights are a nebulous concept but the best way to determine this is education and income. As men's income and educational advancement through the 19th and 20th century increased, we see drops in fertility. Here's a graph explaining what I'm trying to say. As men's income/education increases over time we see similar decreases in fertility.

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"You sound patriotic."

Not at all. I simply enjoy living in a functioning society.

"America doesn’t have social safety nets."

That is objectively untrue. America has one of the largest welfare programs in the world. Just because some countries have more social safety nets doesn't mean that America has none. Frankly, it's a ridiculous thing to say.

"The economy goes up and down based on the terrible actions of people in power already so I can’t get really concerned or excited about economic doomsayers. I just think it’s not something people need to worry about. So I don’t worry about it."

Fertility rates objectively have a long-term effect on a country's economy regardless of whether you care about it or not.

"Why do you care about the demographics of your country?"

Because I live in it? WTF kind of question is that? You don't seem to put much thought behind the things you say.

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Yikes. It is true that homogeneous societies function more smoothly than diverse ones but you’re starting to sound a little unhinged.

To you question of why don’t I care? Because I just don’t. I am very old and have seen people clutching their pearls about this or that over the course of my lifetime, screaming “why don’t you care about this pending disaster I’m so worried about?!”

I wasn’t worried about Y2K and I’m not worried about Jesus coming back and I’m certainly not worried about whatever nonsense you’re freaking out about.

So the economy goes up and down. Big deal. So people have to adjust to having neighbors that don’t look like them. Cry me a river. My dad and granddad were both Yakama Nation. Talk to them if you don’t like the demographics of your neighborhood. They don’t either.

Maybe having neighbors who speak another language wouldn’t be such a big deal if most Americans weren’t monoglots. My most recent boyfriend spoke five languages. Why don’t you?

[–] ParadoxicalFrog2 0 points 1 point 2 points 6 days ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Yikes. It is true that homogeneous societies function more smoothly than diverse ones but you’re starting to sound a little unhinged."

What exactly is "unhinged"?

"To you question of why don’t I care? Because I just don’t. I am very old and have seen people clutching their pearls about this or that over the course of my lifetime, screaming “why don’t you care about this pending disaster I’m so worried about?!”

I wasn’t worried about Y2K and I’m not worried about Jesus coming back and I’m certainly not worried about whatever nonsense you’re freaking out about.

So the economy goes up and down. Big deal. So people have to adjust to having neighbors that don’t look like them. Cry me a river. My dad and granddad were both Yakama Nation. Talk to them if you don’t like the demographics of your neighborhood. They don’t either."

Yes, it's very obvious that you don't care or think about the world at large. Other people do because they live in it.

"My most recent boyfriend spoke five languages. Why don’t you?"

I am bilingual. Why aren't you? Also, who the fuck brags about how many languages their last boyfriend spoke like it's a personal accomplishment? That is legitimately the strangest thing you've done so far.

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[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 days ago (14 children) | Copy Link

NO, we need people not having children unless they can demonstrate a willingness to take care of them themselves, if you want the government to subsidize people starting families you will get parents who do not demonstrate any responsibility towards the children

Women had a *worse* burden 200, 500, 1000 years ago and they swallowed it, and it wasn't because they were "forced," they had the financial provision of brothers etc back then so they had *less* reason to need a husband and they still did it

I'm not an antinatalist, but clearly feminists do not know how to weaponize moral antinatalism properly: your supposed to say "if there were one woman left on earth, it would be more moral for the human race to go extinct than to rape and breed her against her will. Therefore, men's rights activists' abolition of child support *could* lead to the end of the human race, and *could* still be morally preferable to the alternative." It's supposed to be invoking a "responding to a moral argument with a practical argument" fallacy and a shifting the burden of proof fallacy

That argument DOESN'T work with the birth rate, because we have tons of polls indicating the majority of women live to regret the decision to not have children when they are in their 60s etc. The birthrate crisis is going to become an "crisis of unhappy female seniors" in 30 years and it's going to be feminism's fault

[–]nadirianWoman 2 points3 points4 points 6 days ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Women had a worse burden 200, 500, 1000 years ago and they swallowed it, and it wasn't because they were "forced," t hey had the financial provision of brothers etc back then so they had less reason to need a husband and they still did it

This is... very ahistorical.

Reliable, safe, readily-available birth control was not an option until the 1960s. Women didn't have to be "forced" 200, 500, 1000 years ago because there literally wasn't an alternative. Until very, very recently, pregnancy risk was a biological fact of proximity with the opposite sex.

Unmarried women were typically restricted from participation in public life, which made marriage appealing because it allowed a woman to have comparatively more independence, social freedom and control within her household.

Infanticide, failed abortions, poisonings (self and mariticide), and segregation (e.g. joining a convent) were way more common before safe, reliable birth control and abortion became available because women definitely didn't just "swallow it".

There's almost no historical time and place you could pick where a never-married, able-bodied woman could rely on a brother for life-long provision.

In the US in 1826, or England in 1526, a woman from a wealthy family could maybe rely on a brother for provision... assuming it's temporary or she's a widow or physically/mentally ill AND he personally likes her very much. Unless she has some kind of extenuating circumstances, the brother would have a cultural/social expectation, and a lot of financial and legal incentive, to find an unmarried female dependent a husband or a job (e.g. as a governess or lady's companion).

[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -1 points0 points1 point 6 days ago (6 children) | Copy Link

This is... very ahistorical.

Reliable, safe, readily-available birth control was not an option until the 1960s.

Yeah so women had an even bigger burden then they do now and they still did it. They had abstinence education, and you guys seem to think abstinence education rocks when you tell men "keep your dick in your pants if you don't want to pay child support" so yeah it was a choice.

Women didn't have to be "forced" 200, 500, 1000 years ago because there literally wasn't an alternative. Until very, very recently, pregnancy risk was a biological fact of proximity with the opposite sex.

"Proximity?" Like "a woman can get pregnant just by hear Duke Nukems voice?" No, they could have had outercourse like women do today when they are of the "the pill wrecks your hormones after a year" beliefset.

Unmarried women were typically restricted from participation in public life,

No they weren't, they were restricted from the top 1% most powerful jobs usually (and usually informally.) It's not like women literally could not go outside.

There's almost no historical time and place you could pick where a never-married, able-bodied woman could rely on a brother for life-long provision.

Except today in the middle east where 12 year old boys are turning to cross dressing prostitution to pay for 16 year old sisters

Yeah your right, a sister couldn't reply on her nearest living male relatives to bankroll her *everything* because they couldn't afford it and women worked for centuries prior to the late 1940s, but the point is, they had that much of a push.

They had that and they have nothing today, and they have way more advanced medicine today, but it's a problem *now* and it wasn't a problem *then*

In the US in 1826, or England in 1526, a woman from a wealthy family could maybe rely on a brother for provision... assuming it's temporary or she's a widow or physically/mentally ill AND he personally likes her very much. Unless she has some kind of extenuating circumstances, the brother would have a cultural/social expectation, and a lot of financial and legal incentive, to find an unmarried female dependent

Sounds like you agree, men were considered assholes if they *didn't* find a woman to financially support

[–]nadirianWoman 0 points1 point2 points 6 days ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah so women had an even bigger burden then they do now and they still did it. They had abstinence education, and you guys seem to think abstinence education rocks when you tell men "keep your dick in your pants if you don't want to pay child support" so yeah it was a choice.

Lol what do you mean women had "abstinence education" before the invention of reliable birth control? It's not "abstinence education" just to explain how human reproduction works. A lot of women didn't even get that much, while some were taught which plants in their garden might induce a miscarriage.

Also, who is "you guys"? Ain't me.

"Proximity?"

Take your time and read the full sentence without skipping words.

Proximity to men increases a woman's risk of pregnancy, yes, obviously.

No they weren't, they were restricted from the top 1% most powerful jobs usually (and usually informally.) It's not like women literally could not go outside.

Pick a time and region, because it varies widely.

In the Byzantine Empire (c. 14th century), women were actually restricted from going outside without being veiled and chaperoned. Several regions have a historical tradition of castrating men (eunuchs) specifically to serve as chaperones, guards, and proxies in very sex segregated societies.

Except today in the middle east where 12 year old boys are turning to cross dressing prostitution to pay for 16 year old sisters

The historical (and unfortunately contemporary) practice of bacha bazi developed because women are especially restricted from participating in public life in that culture and socializing is extremely sex segregated.

they have way more advanced medicine today, but it's a problem now and it wasn't a problem then

You're sooooo close to understanding the point in spite of yourself lol.

If women in 1823 had access to today's modern technology, they would have chosen to have fewer kids.

[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ 0 points1 point2 points 6 days ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]nadirianWoman 2 points3 points4 points 6 days ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Ugh, I am aware that you're ragebaiting, but ehhh let's give you one more good faith try...

these are countries that often have like 55%+ of women in STEM like in Iran before the war

The specific practice of young boys cross-dressing and being sexually exploited (called bacha bazi) is a historical cultural practice in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Iran is not one of "these countries", *so it's not relevant to compare.

*edit to remove ad hom

What modern technology?

The birth control pill that was invented in the 1950s and became widely available in the 1960s.

You mean "jobs are easier due to modern technology and women would have chosen that instead?"

Uhh, nope. I mean that if women had the birth control pill available before the 1960s, they'd choose to take it.

Becvause we can ask why Islamic countrues are an exception to this birth rate stuff, some islamic countries of course have worse technology but others not so much really.

You answered your own question, my guy. Catholics have religious restrictions on using birth control and their birth rates are higher too.

[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -1 points0 points1 point 5 days ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

The specific practice of young boys cross-dressing and being sexually exploited (called bacha bazi) is a historical cultural practice in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Iran is not one of "these countries", \so it's not relevant to compare.*

Yeah and the gender equality paradox still applies to those areas too

\edit to remove ad hom*

Yeah it's impossible to call "ragebaiting" without admitting you are in fact enraged

The birth control pill that was invented in the 1950s and became widely available in the 1960s.

Uhh, nope. I mean that if women had the birth control pill available before the 1960s, they'd choose to take it.

So why didn't the birth rate start falling until now? Population IIRC kept growing after the pill was introduced for the next 50 years and only started falling like a decade ago. That sounds like the pill isn't doing it

[–]nadirianWoman 0 points1 point2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah and the gender equality paradox still applies to those areas too

You think the gender equality paradox applies to Afghanistan????

It is currently, today right now, illegal for girls over the age of 12 to attend school in Afghanistan. It's probably the only country in the world where the gender equality paradox has less than zero relevance. Afghan women are not taking university STEM lmao be serious. 😂

without admitting you are in fact enraged

Nah, I just thought it was a bit rude and unnecessary to call you ignorant outright since you're doing fine demonstrating your lack of knowledge all on your own.

Population IIRC kept growing after the pill was introduced for the next 50 years and only started falling like a decade ago.

You clearly don't have great recall.

The decline in global population growth began in 1968, which is exactly what you'd expect after the birth control pill was approved for use in 1960.

You already identified yourself that religion and limited availability/access to birth control are factors that lead to specific regions having less decline in birth rate post-1960.

Edit: Population also isn't falling even today. The rate of increase has slowed, but global population is still growing.

[–] bigdonut100 /r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 days ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Afghan women are not taking university STEM lmao be serious.

Nice strawman and you know my browser has a filter that replaces that emoji with "I'm 16." just for shit like this

Nah, I just thought it was a bit rude and unnecessary to call you ignorant outright since you're doing fine demonstrating your lack of knowledge all on your own.

Why are you losing the argument to someone who has a lack of knowledge?

I'm less concerned with matters of *emperical review* being wrong than I am with peoples errors in logic, like you deal in

The decline in global population growth began in 1968, which is exactly what you'd expect after the birth control pill was approved for use in 1960.

Except that the birthrate was lower and higher when we were cavemen at different points. Again correlation is not causation and any expert will tell you that, for instance, the birth rate fell from people having 12 kids to people having 3.5 kids by the 1970s because people didn't have to worry about kids dying due to lack of medicine. There are *many* factors that could easily explain the birth rate.

You already identified yourself that religion and limited availability/access to birth control are factors

No, I never said limited availability but of course that would be a factor. My issues is more that religion can boost the birth rate *without* banning birth control, there's the idea that religions are subject to their own natural selection and evolution of sorts, where the most popular religion in the world "coincidentally" is the one that says "be fruitful and multiply" and "coincidentally" bans all non reproductive sex.

Population also isn't falling even today. The rate of increase has slowed, but global population is still growing.

Ty, fuck up your own point harder

[–]Brilliant-Block-8200Blue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 6 days ago (5 children) | Copy Link

People back then also had social pressures or things like religion that made them feel like they had to or should. The only way to say whether they were ‘happier’ is if they also were able to see how life could be without children and if that were a choice that would not be judged. If they’d still choose to have many kids even with that knowledge or pressure, then you’d have a point.

But we’re at a point where people can finally choose to be childfree and NOT face any potential repercussions from it. That wasn’t always the case. Parents are also being more honest about how hard it is to have kids. Even my grandmother talked about how she was NEVER warned about the damage from birth and was only told about the ‘good parts’ and was criticized for complaining when things were hard.

We cannot say whether women were genuinely happier back then because they didn’t have the same choices women do now. They never had the actual choice to never marry and travel the world if they wanted. Women today can. Religion also pressures people and that’s finally dying down, which is also good

[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -2 points-1 points0 points 6 days ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But we’re at a point where people can finally choose to be childfree and NOT face any potential repercussions from it. That wasn’t always the case.

Yes it was always the case, the term "spinster" literally refered to a woman with a job instead of a family.

We cannot say whether women were genuinely happier back then

We have polls that most women who don't have children live to regret it by their 60s etc, so insofar as we can measure happiness, that seems like it.

It's just so bumb man, it's "the pain of childbearth that cavewomen didn't think was to much of a problem" vs "the human race might die out before we leave the galaxy or the sun explodes because women don't want to feel hurty in their belly for 9 months. You think the human race is entitled to exist if women don't want to feel hurty in their bellies? Nu uhu, that's just another male entitlement as far as I am concerned"

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[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -2 points-1 points0 points 6 days ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bigdonut100/r/RevTrad 🐟ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ ⏪ ｍｕｓｈｒｏｏｍ 🍄ｉｓ♂️ ｕｎｈｉｎｇｅｄ -2 points-1 points0 points 6 days ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If we advanced technology to allow men to become pregnant and give birth, would you do it? If not, you’re a major hypocrite.

The artificial womb is discussed very heavily in MGTOW circles and has the potential to be amazing, not just for men but also for transwomen, and that's where it's probably going to go since some people are expecting transwomen to be able to get uturus implants and get pregnant in the next 30 years. So you could always just allow cismen to get those implants too.

The only objection is, if it increases the risks of something going wrong, if an artificial womb / uterus inside a man vs women getting naturally preg was like a 40% increase risk of, say, autism or something, that wouldn't be preferable. Would you be cool if it was a choicer between "100% of women carrying the baby" vs "only 50% women, but the other 50% of men have more miscarriages than if ciswomen did it"?

Because a weird thing might happen: women might do it more then just because they don't want their husbands to suffer, as a paradox of psychology, but I'm probably losing you.

And guess what, equality then would look like a man having one kid and his wife having an equal kid, so women would have to raise children that 0% their biologically theirs because her husband would get knocked up by another man, and her husband would get a kid 50% biologically his, and women still have all the same problems.

And people would have to have even numbers of kids when 3 is the "classic" number of kids

So again, learn to be happy with declining birthrates unless you help make motherhood easier 😊

MODERN MEDICINE AND THE FEMALE BIASED WELFARE SYSTEM WE *DO* HAVE *IS* MEN MAKING IT EASIER FOR YOU.

You did it MORE when it was harder.

Men have no idea what women want as usual, but you think it's men's fault... as usual

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No one said anything about "Having to go up every year", you can maintain or even slightly decrease a population just fine, we're having a sharp spike downwards, that's the difference.

You're comparing two completely different things. Black Death was a pandemic that killed everyone, that's not the same as a population just deciding to not have kids, the lower birth rates isn't what destroyed their economy, it was the pandemic itself.

The Great Depression and the first and second World Wars were periods of birth rate decline

The birth rates were still 2.1 children per women at the absolute lowest points during this time, which was then immediately followed up by the baby boom generation. Compare that to now where the US has a 1.6 children per woman, or japan which is 1.16 children per women, and there are absolutely NO signs that will change anytime soon.

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There’s plenty of educated people that would agree with me

No, there's not.

Did the US economy collapse when our population was half of what it is now?

My friend, I know you think you have all the answers, but this clearly isn't something you've put much thought or research into.

First off, saying the economy will collapse, doesn't mean everyone dies and the country no longer exists. It means the economy does really poorly and many of the services and expectations people have for life no longer can be sustained.

The US population was half about what it is today in 1950. What was the size of the economy then? 300 Billion. What is it now? 31 trillion.

If the economy shrinks from a value of 31 trillion to 300 billion, according to your hypothesis, do you think that would be "fine"? Or do you think along the way a ton of people would lose their jobs, houses, and the entire society would transform?

Let me ask you a simpler question..... When the economy does poorly, say in a depression or recession do people think that is good or bad? Or do they just don't care?

The economy growing is great. The economy shrinking is what produces problems.

The fact that you can’t cite a SINGLE historical example speaks volumes about the invalidity of your claims.

Oh there's tons of examples. The Great Depression, all kinds of natural disasters. In fact there you won't be able to find an example where the birth rate declined so much and the economy did well.

But it's also true that this is new ground in that this hasn't happened without a major event.

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The plague was a mortality shock with an intact age structure. It killed perhaps 30-60% of Europe across all ages, but it left behind a population whose fertility machinery was undamaged: young adults survived in proportion, the survivors retained normal childbearing capacity, and crucially the dependency ratio improved for the survivors. Labor scarcity raised wages, broke serfdom's bargaining structure in Western Europe, and the population recovered to its pre-plague level within roughly 150-200 years because each cohort could simply have more children. The shock was to the level of population, not to its capacity to reproduce.

All of the women that are going to be mothers by 2050 have already been born, this group of mothers will be smaller than the previous due to decades of sub-replacement fertility, and their daughters' generation of mothers will be smaller still. This is called negative population momentum and it means that period TFR You see our situation is a fertility shock with an intact (indeed extended) lifespan. Nobody is dying en masse. The problem is at the base of the pyramid, not across it. You're comparing Apple to oranges. The plague subtracted people from a population that could still make more. We are subtracting the making itself. The two cannot be more categorically different.

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10 million of people per year is a lot when the entire world population was only 600 million.

The equivalent today would be about 400 million dying per year. And ... yes, we are indeed going to have that level of population loss.

0.5 births per woman means the "death rate" is 750 deaths with no replacement per 1000 people. Not 7 per 1000. That is far beyond your "300-600" rate.

Just because it doesn't happen in a single year, doesn't mean it isn't going to be as devastating.

edit: and then... of those 250 people that are left... 150 will die and only 100 will have left a replacement. In 2 generations we went from 1000 people to 100. And of those 100 people... 75 people will die and only 25 left a replacement child. In 75 years ... we went from a 1000 people to 25. Why do you even need a car factory to make cars or anything in south korea, there will be no one left to buy them... it's literal civilization level collapse.

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It seems that a lot of guys want to live a life of casual sex, more so compared to women, unless that's just me, thinking that.

This is the point I was disagreeing with. Yes I do believe there are slightly more men that want casual sexual relationships than women, however this difference is massively overstated for two reasons:

A) women experience men who want, and are able to get, casual sex at rates that are far higher than what would be reflective of the male population as a whole, directly as a consequence of the criteria women, blessed with chosing power, implement themselves.

B) The male search for sex is far more difficult, which leads to far more effort, far more failure, and far more frustration - all of which make the male search for sex more long-lasting and thus visible.

That was my point which related to the comment to which I replied, not to the OP.

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That assumes the goal is simply maximizing births, but governments don't just care about birth numbers in isolation. Stable two-parent households are consistently associated with better outcomes for children across many measures, and societies have strong incentives to encourage families, not just pregnancies.

Sperm donation and IVF also don't solve the demographic problem on their own. Someone still has to choose to become a single parent, and raising children alone is generally more expensive and demanding than raising them with a committed partner. Those options exist, but they aren't scalable replacements for widespread family formation.

More importantly, the argument quietly changes the subject. The original claim is about whether declining birth rates eventually change dating dynamics. Pointing out that assisted reproduction exists doesn't show they won't. If enough men and women stop forming families, the economic and social incentives around relationships can change regardless of whether IVF remains available. Technology doesn't eliminate the consequences of people choosing not to pair up.

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You're still arguing against something I didn't claim.

The argument isn't "low birth rates magically make women want marriage." The argument is that if birth rates become a serious enough problem, institutions respond to that problem.

Your own reply supports that. You said women would have to be "begged and paid" to become pregnant. That's an admission that incentives can be created to influence behavior. Whether those incentives are financial, social, or policy-based is beside the point.

Sperm banks also don't answer the original issue. They address conception, not declining family formation, aging populations, shrinking workforces, or the economic problems governments worry about. Saying "sperm banks are more realistic" doesn't explain why governments would stop caring about those broader demographic issues.

You're treating "women don't currently care" as if it disproves "future incentives may change behavior." Those are completely different claims.

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You're still arguing against something I didn't claim.

The argument isn't that women naturally become interested in marriage because birth rates fall. The argument is that governments respond when birth rates become a serious demographic problem.

You actually reinforce that point by saying women would have to be "begged and paid" to have children. That's an acknowledgment that incentives can be created to influence behavior. Whether those incentives are financial, social, or policy-based isn't the issue.

Saying "women don't care about men" also doesn't answer the argument. Governments don't build demographic policy around what people currently care about. They build it around changing behavior when current incentives aren't producing the outcomes they want.

Sperm banks don't solve the broader problems either. They don't address declining family formation, shrinking workforces, or aging populations. That's why governments concerned about birth rates look beyond conception itself.

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TFR is understandable on a macro-level (for a specific nation), as people are increasingly worried about a future in which social security dries up, but most people also cannot afford to save adequately for retirement because cost of living will increase at a rate faster than wages go up. You can import the global south for this, but there are other issues associated with this.

Nation and societal instability also leads to reduction in liberalism and freedom, which is bad news for the generation that finally experiences this. This will not happen for some time though, and you are right that this does not appeal to women, so what everyone will basically do is enjoy the decline until then.

It does not interest me to force women to have children even if I myself want children. In fact I even wish the ultra-poor would stop having babies and relying on welfare to do so.

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None of that is necessary if men just oppress and rape us. It all goes back to the monopoly on force, which men have proven in the past they are okay with employing and men today frequency threaten, taunt, fantasize, and reminisce about.

That's why I'm a fan of getting down to brass tacks and having the real conversation they seem to want to avoid. I'm tired of the weaseling and back-and-forth about male nature. Men cannot simultaneously be fundamentally good trustworthy people but only under the conditions that we monogamously fuck them for life (without ever having sex with anyone more attractive, with a bigger dick, or more sexually exciting) and have their children. If this is what men require to not be amoral violent antisocial psychopaths, then we need to stop the narratives about how they're no worse than women and they need to stop being offended by and defensive regarding accurate assessments of their character and nature. I think women deserve clear-eyed honesty about this considering we're the only ones being sacrificed on the altar of "the greater good." I categorically reject the notion that men restraining themselves from violent, violative antisocial behavior and working a job is a sacrifice, much less on the same level of what they ask of women.

They don't want to have that conversation though. They only want to talk about women, and female nature, and our obligations, and our duties, and our delusions. I believe what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Listen I don't trust them in any sense but that's not the topic

Even if men try to make us "slaves", they will still have to pay for childcare and kids and what not. Most men if rich and have a bright brain, will choose not to have kids.

Women will be left with the choice and forcefully be told to have kids. Guess what women will do in this scenario?

Women will create children and raise them with other women. Not only that states will require higher taxes from people and for materal children or whatever. I guess because men will not have a part in child caring for kids they will be forced to pay higher taxes.

We won't end up in a state dependant on men, because women not working will be an economic loss for a country. They will want us working. And hence they will also want women to have kids with other parents as women mostly.

Heck that's also why I see matriarchy will become a big thing eventually in the future. Because think about it, if everything is automated what will be the use for humans? The only use for humans is to have kids which women can produce. Men might do jobs like carpenter, plumber etc but those jobs if remain the last ones to get automated then they will be saturated and the income will be less.

Eventually societies will rely on women soley for kids ONLY.

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http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/128/Devine.pdf

There is considerable evidence to show that Roman society in the late Republic and early Empire was afflicted by a low birthrate. Augustus in 18 B.C. found it necessary to pass the lex Iulia de maritandis ordinibus in the hope of raising the birth-rate by penalizing the unmarried and the childless.

https://www.vindolanda.com/blog/roman-women-and-children-part-1

Given these grim figures it is no surprise that the state was concerned about population. Rome was unambiguous about its impatience to see children produced. At the census husbands were required to swear an oath that conception was their earnest intention. In 18 BC the Emperor Augustus enacted laws to encourage marriage and having children, including establishing adultery as a crime.

[–]InterestingClient283 1 point2 points3 points 6 days ago* [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link

Ive seen this. This is exactly the same fate we will suffer as well. I've been aware of our trajectory as a society for quite some time. I no longer even bother to try with women in the US or in other western countries. Most of them are embarrassments. I want the chaos. I know it's the only way to finally fix all these problems. Plus I've been prepping for over 15 years and I have everything I need in a very secluded area near farming, food, water, and I have more than I'll ever personally need of renewable power. We are not far off from crisis. People will be shocked.

We cannot reverse this at this point. We are going straight down the toilet sadly.

We are like an organism we are currently in the stagnation phase. Next is death phase and then we retasrt.

This happens to every civilization at or near it's peak. The reason is because of the excess privilege and extreme decadence make people entitled and spoiled but especially the women. Then the tyrants give the women everything they want at the expense of all the other men to get their votes or support. Boom, here we are now. They fell for it like they always do. Aristotle wrote about this long ago. Attachment of his excerpt below. Tyrants love women, slaves, and foreigners...sound familiar?

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It is a weird and silly argument. Pour that energy into finding solutions to the declining population.

We have enough time to prepare a solution besides bitch and nag women into having kids.

( While not offering up many incentives btw only bitching and nagging, maybe some women would have kids if they were offered money to)

Potential issue: Not enough young people to take care of the old people

Solution 1 : make more kids to take care of old people

Problem: we also keep aiming for making exponential growth not just steady replacement of a population that is balanced between sustainable resource management and caring for old.

( Meaning we want to 1:1 replace a society that is too big, shrink it to a population able to use the resources available then replace 1:1)

Problem: fuck over young people for the sake of old people. Doubly fuck over women for the sake of some old people

Solution 2 : Decrease the amount of old people

If there are to many old people for the population and economy we can euthanize them.

I'd be much more willing in my old age to be euthanized than to fuck up my young age/working days with kids.

I'd be old and in pain and would have lived my life.

Problem: idk how much old people would be ok with assisted suicide.

Also if there are less young people put the people who would have worked on young people to the old people that remain. Turn schools into retirement homes once the population decrease enough and the elementary schools and such are empty.

Also a lesser population is good. The main issue people have is the economy and that's cause we built a economic system that was based on exponential growth which would be unsustainable. Anyways this economic system is like 100 years old we can make a new one.

These people fail to take into account the lack of resources available whether that be housing, jobs, nonrenewable resources etc. We have increased productivity through machinery, automation and AI. We don't need so many people. Some economies can barely supply the population with work even with decreased birth rates( China, young people with engineering degrees and doctorates but not enough engineering and doctor jobs yet basic jobs like shop keeper being done by vending machines etc)

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Title	the birth rate topic is silly
Author	Numerous-Month-7688
Upvotes	24
Comments	557
Date	July 29, 2026 8:19 PM UTC (1 week ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1va7tpf/the_birth_rate_topic_is_silly/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-birth-rate-topic-is-silly.1628500 https://theredarchive.com/post/1628500

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