CMV: TRP romanticizes men and demonizes women

PatienceOk3159 · 2023-04-19T12:28:02+00:00

Perhaps I’ve encountered more overtly TERRIBLE men but I’ve also encountered more ‘low-key’ terrible women if that makes sense.

And perhaps more overtly righteous men. I feel it’s similar to the IQ curve. But I’d also say that men are judged quite flippantly these days and women gravitate towards shaky relationship foundations rather than ones that are likely to be legit commitments. And this comes from my own in-field successes And failures. Basically NO woman I’ve met/dated has preferred certainty to uncertainty

Midnightchickover · 2023-04-19T15:34:22+00:00

Red Pill figures often over-emphasize the shortcomings of certain women in particular and present them as the majority of women, while they highlight men as “knightly,” even when they are dead wrong or have committed some atrocities. There’s even support of their worst qualities, just as long as it doesn’t cater to women.

Men are painted as “honest,” “hardworking,” “direct,” “nothing to hide,” “exploring his options,” and their “self-fulfillment” is a natural part of men and lends itself to their masculinity.

Women can be questioned about all of the same thing. She’s only “honest” to get what she wants out of the deal. She works hard, but there’s a man out there who is more worthy of her career, job, or what he does. She was given a leg up to get there.

Self-fulfillment and exploring options for women is a natural trait, but undesirable, undeserving, and borderline evil. A woman in this state to RP people is an abomination, that is egged on by feminism, progressiveness, and a concerted effort to dissolve society.

Yet, somehow women still have to play by the rules of men in power. As much as RPillers demonize women in the sex industry, the only reason most women participate in it is because it’s lucrative and men from all socioeconomic levels are more than willing to finance it. If a greater proportion or almost all heterosexual men did not give this type of participation and financing to these companies, platforms, outlets, or individual women. The sex industry in this capacity would not exist or be very minimal. It’s not to say women and non-heterosexual men don’t participate in these industries as buyers or consumers, they completely do. But, they don’t make up the bulk of the consumption.

I say the same thing about the sex dynamics and online dating. Men tend to over represent themselves in a sexual capacity and outlets in reality and online. Men, themselves make themselves readily available for women when it comes to sex. Women can and will do the same thing, but not nearly as much as men. Again, women endure far more physical, social, and psychological risk for making themselves readily available, again because society is set in that function. I want reemphasize that this is not exclusive to women, but men can endure this as well. But, again they both suffer from the same system in place when they are victims and how society treats them.

Men, on their own accord, give women the upper hand, by default. They put and give a lot of attention to sex for a variety of reasons. It’s seemingly a great source of frustration, due to an entire movement based on one’s ability to get pass virginity (or to take someone else’s virginity).

That’s quite troubling for society.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-04-19T15:57:24+00:00

My favorite is when they try to claim they don’t make moral judgements.lol They don’t for themselves, but they sure do for women and other men!

SnowBorn6339 · 2023-04-19T22:47:51+00:00

There’s a certain homoeroticism in TRP that makes me giggle lol. They love men soooooo much.

Apo-cone-lypse · 2023-04-19T11:40:16+00:00

It's just the pendulum launching itself to the other side.

Society undeservingly praises women through the "Women Are Wonderful" effect while undeservingly demonizing men, so of course the counterculture is going to do the opposite.

Perfect_Sir4820 · 2023-04-19T21:24:21+00:00

When you ask the average Red Piller "which gender is more narcissistic?" 95% of them would say that women are more narcissistic than men.

Yet actual studies show that men consistently score higher on narcissism and have a higher self-esteem than women.

This is purely because people tend to confuse narcissism with solipsism.

Acrobatic_Computer · 2023-04-19T12:38:43+00:00

The narcissism described in the metastudy is not colloquial narcissism:

"At the same time, narcissism is shown to boost self-esteem, emotional stability and the tendency to emerge as a leader," she says. "By examining gender differences in narcissism, we may be able to explain gender disparities in these important outcomes." The researchers examined more than 355 journal articles, dissertations, manuscripts and technical manuals, and studied gender differences in the three aspects of narcissism: leadership/authority, grandiose/exhibitionism and entitlement.

They found the widest gap in entitlement, suggesting that men are more likely than women to exploit others and feel entitled to certain privileges.

The second largest difference was in leadership/authority. "Compared with women, men exhibit more assertiveness and desire for power," Grijalva says. "But there was no difference in the exhibitionism aspect, meaning both genders are equally likely to display vanity or self-absorption."

Only the third category here aligns with colloquial narcissism.

This is a metastudy, which have their own set of possible biases, and are limited by the research they describe. At least at a surface level the interpretation of the data seems fraught as well (or at least the presentation in the article is flawed).

In addition, the study looked at data from college students between 1990 and 2013, and found no evidence that either gender has become more narcissistic over time.

Research has shown that personality differences, like narcissism, can arise from gender stereotypes and expectations that have been ingrained over time. The authors speculate that the persistent lack of women in senior leadership roles may partially stem from the disparity between stereotypes of femininity and leadership.

In the 23 years between 1990 and 2013 we would need no progress on stereotypes and the like in order for this to make sense. There clearly were cultural changes, so where is the corresponding change in narcissism? Especially if it is driven by sex-specific socialization, we should see sex-specific change here.

Edit:

Starting reading the full study. It explicitly cites that women are more focused on personal appearance. Unless you can substantiate that "TRP" meant clinical narcissism and not colloquial narcissism, then I think this is an open and shut case.

revente · 2023-04-19T11:40:10+00:00

Trp is a tool for guys to get sex not a 'fair moral system' for everyone.

And one of the biggest problems guys have is putting women on the pedestal. That's why trp's aim is to highlight that women absolutely can be shitty people.

Since trp isn't about picking up men. We don't care about their morality and thats it.

Billsandasonom · 2023-04-19T13:11:30+00:00

At its core TRP is just supposed to open men's eyes to the true nature of women which is contrary to the blue-pilled sugar and spice and everything nice they've been spoonfed their entire lives. At its core TRP is supposed to just treat men as neutral, placing the responsibility of their success with women entirely on their shoulders; i.e. if you aren't succeeding with women, it's your fault or there's more you could be doing to improve yourself. In reality, a lot of TRP content creators and figureheads do often end up demonizing women and pedestalizing men.

It's like a lot of ideologies with sound principles and aims on paper but in practice by flawed humans it leads to hate and runaway delusion (like feminism).

Carloverguy20 · 2023-04-20T00:35:38+00:00

Men aren't safe in the redpill lol. TRP calls any man that disagrees with them a beta male, simp, white knight, etc

Hoopy223 · 2023-04-19T13:50:30+00:00

There’s a lot of sexism in those studies. They’ll argue that narcissistic behaviors are natural for women (IE misunderstood feminine behaviors) while being an unnatural behavior for men sort of thing.

For example (in the study) they define narcissism as having difficulty maintaining relationships, unethical behavior, and aggression. The further state that assertiveness and seeking leadership roles is “narcissism.”

So the engineered a study that is inherently anti-male.

It’s no different than those “studies” where they find that women are bipolar and men are psychopathic. Even when they find evidence of bipolar in males and psychopathy in females they’ll discard it because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

Treacle-Flimsy · 2023-04-19T12:58:27+00:00

They don't romanticize men in general, rather the ability to rack up body count and having your shit together

There's an entire subsection of trp that is called Alpha Fucks/Beta Buxxs, which blames Beta Bucks for being dumb, naive idiot for falling "believe all women" fallacy

Spyro7x3 · 2023-04-19T11:22:31+00:00

The problem with studies is that they're almost always conducted wrongly in order to get a desired result. For instance they'll try to find out about racism in white men and cite a large sample size leaving out that they conducted it in a MAGA group. Also setting the parameters of racism to be things like "believes that all lives matter", "believes that Christianity is a positive thing".

AlmostKindaGreat · 2023-04-19T17:45:30+00:00

Sure, the title of your post is patently true, IMO. There is a lot of butthurt bitterness in the Red Pill toward women and making men out to be noble victims. I don't think it's the core of it and you can ignore it, but it's there.

I'd also agree that the very worst people in the world are men. I'm talking clinical narcissists and psychopaths. We all see that serial killers and ruthless leaders who plunge whole civilizations into war are mostly men. It's just true.

BUT

Does this really extrapolate to the experience of most men and women with romance and dating? That's what we're talking about here, this is not a contest to prove whether The World's Worst Person is a man or a woman.

This is one example of how TRP promotes a worldview that makes men nicer than they really are, while simultaneously making women appear worse.

Maybe you can understand that conventional wisdom makes women nicer than they really are while simultaneously making men appear worse.

RP goes overboard and tries to counter this with the extreme opposite but I think the truth is a lot more boring. I do think women have more leverage and they use it but I don't view men or women, in general, as better or worse than one another, particularly with their intentions.

HungerISanEmotion · 2023-04-19T10:52:22+00:00

Women get underdiagnosed due to them being better at masking.

So Patriarchy is to be blamed for women suffering due to being underdiagnosed for autism, ADHD...

But women being underdiagnosed for sociopathy, narcissism... we don't talk about that?

I do agree that TRP romanticizes men, but "women are wonderful" effect is seen everywhere. Are women hurt so much if one sub has "men are wonderful" effect?

esdebah · 2023-04-19T12:03:59+00:00

I mean, yeah. It's a thoroughly misogynistic mindset. The basic tenet is 'all women are this way so all men should try to be this way.'

abaxeron · 2023-04-19T13:51:10+00:00

When you ask the average Red Piller "which gender is more narcissistic?"

TRP does not use the clinical definition of the word "narcissism", same as women (yes, women; not just "feminists") don't use neither scientific, dictionary, or common-sense definitions of sexism, misogyny, harrassment, or occasionally even rape.

Yes, it is not 100% scientifically accurate; no, it's not demonization.

Three of my favorite RP content creators outright said that women are perfect creations of evolution - for the specific purpose to guarantee that the womb, eggs, and progeny survives, at all costs, including at the expense of every adult man in the world. Same as women are perfect in the context of their evolutionary function, men are also perfect in the context of theirs. Neither is "bad"; both operate on different imperatives and premises for different goals.

One of the most impactful quotes by probably my favorite RP content creator was "Women can never love men, and it's not their fault".

The second most impactful quote from him was "How we change women is a pointless question, we can't, but more importantly, we don't have to. Women are not the problem; the problem are simps." Is this what you mean by "make men nicer than they really are"? I guess not.

There's also nothing "romantic" in the fact that men basically built civilization because they are the only ones who could. There's as much romanticism in it as in giving birth, which only women do or can do. Except, building civilization has higher mortality rate.

Vronicasawyerredsded · 2023-04-19T12:18:50+00:00

I’ll go further:

It’s not that “men” (sigh disclaimer: not all men) in TRP demonize women (sigh disclaimer: not all women) and romanticize men, it’s that they demonize women, who have relationships WITH OTHER MEN.

Additionally, narcissism is a form of arrested development that is rooted in deeeeeep insecurity that leads to a person being empathy and emotionally intellectually deficient and a lack of self-awareness.

You can’t have a relationship with someone who’s core personality is rooted in these negative attributes. They aren’t fixable.

Additionally, it is STILL in the best interest of a man for a woman to agree to be his wife or longterm partner than it is for women to be a wife and longterm partner with a man.

When a man has a longterm partner, he is also more likely to garner attention from OTHER women, especially if his female partner is attractive, gregarious, outgoing, and successful because OTHER women see that another woman with attractive well-liked characteristics have “co-signed” on that man as being relationship material. That is not the case for women who are longterm partners of men.

Men, who are deeply insecure are more willing to take the bait and step out or at least entertain the idea of an affair because it soothes those feelings of insecurity.

Women also do not benefit during or after a marriage. Women are viewed as “used” goods by men, when she has already been in a relationship with another man, by other men. The more relationships a woman has, the more “used” and “tainted” women are perceived by the male gaze.

The most unsafe time in a woman’s life is also when she’s in a longterm relationship and pregnant (ex: Chris Watts).

It is STILL not worth a woman’s time and effort to date or commit to a longterm relationship with a man.

It’s not a matter of being a “demon” but self advocacy and self preservation.

If a woman decided to commit to a relationship with a man, she had better be sure. Damn sure. Bet-her-life-on-him sure.

Also women are more likely to be the recipient of a STD transmitter to her by a man, than a man is from a women.

Women aren’t discerning enough, and are still too willing to involve themselves in relationships and having sex with men.

Most of them aren’t worth the effort or consequences.

KirthWGersen · 2023-04-19T10:40:38+00:00

"men consistently score higher on narcissism and have a higher self-esteem than women"

Narcissism and high self-esteem are almost complete opposites. The former is a dangerous personality disorder; the latter is a positive trait.

"The prototypical grandiose narcissist is characterized by arrogance, superiority, vanity, entitlement, exploitativeness, exhibitionism, and the incessant need for acclaim from others. Those scoring high on measures of self-esteem, however, tend to feel satisfied with themselves but do not necessarily see themselves as superior to others."

beleidigtewurst · 2023-04-19T12:14:45+00:00

constantly paints ... as helpless victims

Oh, the irony...

PuertoRock007 · 2023-04-19T10:42:30+00:00

Except your sources can't be taken at face value because psychology is filled with women and academia in general is filled with feminists trying to set an anti male agenda.

TRP theory was tested out in the field by thousands of men.

Safinated · 2023-04-19T14:29:03+00:00

I don’t think it romanticizes them as much as it denies or erases them, although in the long run it’s just as incorrect

Mr_Makak · 2023-04-19T10:52:37+00:00

When you ask the average Red Piller "which gender is more narcissistic?" 95% of them would say

I'm not sure if it's reasonable to make up a statistic and then get mad at how those people you just made up make up statistics in their arguments.

Besides, those studies use very specific definitions of "narcissistic" and "machiavellian" which are not necessarily what people mean when they use those terms in normal discussion.

ilovesoundtracks · 2023-04-19T16:53:15+00:00

The word "Narcissism" originates from the mythological figure Narcissus, who fell in love with his own reflection. Basically, an unhealthy relationship with their own reflection. Now tell which gender is notorious for the following:
Spending hours in front of the mirror, painting their face to hide imperfections.
Obsessed with selfies. Not for journaling, but to share (and show off).

Tell me when you crack this puzzle.

ragman75 · 2023-04-20T00:28:59+00:00

When you ask the average Red Piller "which gender is more narcissistic?" 95% of them would say that women are more narcissistic than men.

Yet actual studies show that men consistently score higher on narcissism and have a higher self-esteem than women.

Wrong. When people use the world narcissism they are not talking about the actual antisocial personality disorder, what a dishonest claim. They are referring to someone who is just self absorbed and selfish.

If you asked a Red Piller which gender is more machiavellian , they would say women. Yet studies once again refute that.

Another invalid argument. That term is literally a way to describe someone who is deceitful in a masculine way so ofc men are going to make up the majority of this. This is becuase deceitful women give up, are never met with enough pushback on their deceit that they ever have to be maceivelian in the first place or most likely they simply do not have the cofidence to reach for a goal that would need that kind of drive.

When the Chris Watts case broke out, prominent Red Pillers , like Rollo Tomassi started spreading conspiracy theories that he probably killed his wife and kids because his wife had an affair. When it was revealed that it was actually Chris that had an affair they had nothing to say. TRP constantly paints men as helpless victims and women as manipulative harpies from hell. They say they are realistic but they always have this romanticized idea of masculinity and men in general.

this is all just nonsense

bifewova234 · 2023-04-19T11:20:38+00:00

This is probably a straw man argument. You say that TRP says these things but do they actually?

LeatherCarpet6791 · 2023-04-19T11:29:20+00:00

Signs of Narcissistic Relationships 1. They Were Charming

They Crave Constant Focus

3.They Expect Special Treatment

They Act Important

5.They Need Compliments

They Dismiss Your Feelings

7.They Focus on Appearances

8.They Don't Have to many Friends

They Abuse Their Charm
They Hate Criticism

11.They Manipulate Others

What gender do you think have more of those symptoms?

Who want caonstant attention and being admire in relationship?

How many female partner dissmis thier men feeling just they are men they have to deal with

Who focus way more on thier appearance?

Who if you say something about them you got backlashed like you killed someone?

Who want special treatment without any contribution in the relationship?

Who keep changing thier partner because they feel they are not getting enough or deserve more ?

Narcissist wil always need narcissistic supply any they just cant live without it .

That why narcissist even they think of them as the prize wil come back to dating and searching for another supply

Also narcissist tend to soround thierself with people that they can advantage from .

Last thing and its very very important treat for narcissists ,narcissist wil always play victim card .

modidlee · 2023-04-19T15:21:07+00:00

I think behavior that people see as narcissism in men is called "feminine." But the same behavior by women is seen as just how women are. When I see women say a guy is "sassy" they're basically talking about men they feel are behaving like women. I think men and women are often equally narcissistic, but in men that behavior is called out more. For example, men that are said to have high standards and expectations of the women they date are called "sassy" and narcissistic. But women that have high expectations are told they're justified and should never settle for less than what they want and "deserve" what they want. Both of them are narcissistic.

fuchsiaeuRIor4683 · 2023-04-19T15:32:50+00:00

I believe women are way worse than men on narcissism.

EdwardTheeMasterful · 2023-04-20T00:43:18+00:00

There is no men are wonderful effect phenomenon like there is a women are wonderful phenomenon.

SteveSan82 · 2023-04-20T01:53:02+00:00

High self esteem doesn’t equal narcissism. Take a psychology 101 class

Women have a hard time relating to other people and putting themselves in other peoples shoes. Especially women raised by single mothers.

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Ok-Application-7614 · 2023-04-19T14:23:48+00:00

Counter-point: TRP criticizes and shits on blue pill men

Muscletov · 2023-04-19T14:56:17+00:00

Even if that was true, which I heavily doubt by the way, it would still be a much-needed counterweight to mainstream western culture which does the opposite: romanticize women and demonize men. And the ramifications of said state of affairs are much more dire due to mainstream culture being, well, mainstream.

AidsVictim · 2023-04-19T15:23:33+00:00

Your own post basically exemplifies why TRP, as a reactionary "ideology" (far past the point of original TRP but here we are), became popular in the first place.

nastyfella · 2023-04-19T15:28:19+00:00

why would anyone come here to defend a murderer. It’s never ok to kill your whole family.. even if someone is having an affair WTF

Safe-Pumpkin-Spice · 2023-04-19T16:01:31+00:00

TL;DR TRP is biased because they romanticize men and demonize women.

you're surprised a place of counterculture has its own bias? ;)

thanks for the data points though.

Amazing-Key-1575 · 2023-04-19T16:36:29+00:00

I don’t understand how anyone can define TRP in the first place. It is a collection of disparate bloggers, marketers, and writers mostly selling content & views. Do we say Jordan Peterson is Red Pill? Motivational speaker. What about Joe Rogan? Podcast host. Is Donald Trump? Orange. What about Bill Clinton? Impeached. The Rock? Disney. Kanye West? Unclear. Point being I don’t think “red pill” is anything or anyone beyond the individual business entities selling “red pill” branded material. If red pill truly exists in a consistent philosophical manner they’d be wise to rebrand and infiltrate politics, education, and feminist circles, rephrasing their major theses in universally acceptable language.

conspicuoussgtsnuffy · 2023-04-19T18:38:38+00:00

Hasn’t anyone on here seen the Matrix? It’s simply a different way to say “woke”. Obviously opposite perspectives, but based on facts and statistics instead of emotions.

What TRP actually is and what some people use it for (obviously those who don’t like TRP only hear about the worst cases of people abusing the perspective) are two different things.

2023-04-20T03:48:55+00:00

OMG my biased statistics confirms what I"m thinking??? Wow! Wdym narcissism and self-esteem can't be measured objectively

TheOrangeGhost · 2023-04-20T07:55:00+00:00

Guys become red pill because they lack guidance from male role models and from friends that are women. These guys are stuck thinking they are ugly and losers when in reality they 1. Have fairytale expectations for a partner. 2. Have not flipped their confidence switch yet.( Get your mind.out of the gutter lol) The good but also sad thing is that alot of these red pill guys could easily be full catches in 3 months if they got and took honestly given advice.

Arrathall · 2023-04-20T08:07:22+00:00

Have those studies adjusted for the women are wonderful effect and how that may affect the outcome? No? Hmm

HinduProphet · 2023-04-20T08:08:01+00:00

Women are biologically privileged because they are the female of the species, there is no denying that. So they don't need to do theas bullshits.

InjectAdrenochrome · 2023-04-20T09:43:55+00:00

Yeah the red pill likes to emphasize a very unflattering picture of women. I wouldn't say it "romanticizes" men, rather it just justifies a lot of problematic male behavior.

HobbitShaker88 · 2023-04-20T19:59:32+00:00

Red Pill is utter trash.

Thekurdishprince · 2023-04-20T20:18:14+00:00

Based red pill ? We need more of it

CMV: TRP romanticizes men and demonizes women

Comments

Most stereotypes are spot on

Title	CMV: TRP romanticizes men and demonizes women
Author	Novel-Tip-7570
Upvotes	139
Comments	326
Date	April 19, 2023 10:21 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/12rofq9/cmv_trp_romanticizes_men_and_demonizes_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-trp-romanticizes-men-and-demonizes-women.1214928 https://theredarchive.com/post/1214928