What is the big deal about submission?

TerracottaBunny · 2023-07-28T18:29:56+00:00

I have serious questions about the places you guys frequent if you think that many men are into submission.

Not wanting an overtly aggressive, obnoxious and entitled woman is NOT, nor EVER WAS, wanting submission. It is not wanting a terrible partner.

Excellent_Badger123 · 2023-07-28T18:37:04+00:00

NGL, the only time I've ever heard people say "I want a submissive partner" is in the context of BDSM activities or other bedroom antics. If someone says that about day-to-day life that would be the most crimson of red flags.

Daniel_Bryan_Fan · 2023-07-28T18:40:04+00:00

Speaking as a man who aspires to all things egalitarian, I think you’ll find a wide range of opinions on the subject, but the most common will be “I don’t want someone who fights me on everything”. Which is to really say they want someone compatible/agreeable. Which is fine, but then you ask them if they want to be submissive, and they’ll say “no” despite the definition they just gave being “not fighting on everything.” Ergo, they want to be able to fight on everything but a wife/gf/partner who doesn’t. All of this to say what they really want is someone to control because they’re insecure and don’t want to have a relationship based on mutuality.

anabelle02815 · 2023-07-28T18:54:46+00:00

I let my man lead all the time. I particularly love it when he takes the lead on making dinner, washing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, and changing diapers.

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pomoneomo · 2023-07-28T20:08:47+00:00

I think that it is a holdover from back when the world was a much more dangerous place, and it was more likely that men would have to physically fight to protect themselves and their partner. Men had to lead because they were more likely to have the physical strength and presence needed to fight and withstand pressures of the outside world.

Nowadays it continues because people like traditions, so more conservative people will want to structure their relationships this way, simply because that is the way it has always been done in the past and it has gotten us this far, and because that is the way most popular religions tell their followers to set up a relationship. A lot of men who are not particularly conservative or religious will also be drawn to this type of relationship as well because it gives them the power and control, which generally is attractive to people.

I think as the world becomes less dangerous and religion becomes less popular, this type of dynamic is becoming less searched for as well. Most people simply don't see a need for the man to be the leader, and for the woman to submit to him, so they opt for a more equal partnership, or one of them becomes the leader of the relationship based on both of their natural temperaments as opposed to a belief that the woman should always be submissive.

Soggy_Head_4889 · 2023-07-29T00:46:48+00:00

I think a very fair critique of today's redpill movement is they say stuff like "women want to be submissive to a high value guy" which I'd agree is generally true, but they often do a poor job of describing what that actually means/looks like.

It doesn't mean you treat your women like a lap dog you bark orders at and punish every time she doesn't follow one. It doesn't mean that you never ask her for her opinions, or never consider how your actions will affect her, quite the opposite actually. People in these spaces often confuse being the leader with being a tyrant.

The benefits to a woman of being submissive to the right guy is the sense of comfort and security it provides her knowing she doesn't have to worry about certain things because she can trust that her man has it covered. This only works with certain men though, and unless you're the type of man who's proven he's capable of providing that, there's no reason for a woman to submit to you.

sexualdeskfan · 2023-07-28T20:07:56+00:00

I don’t think the majority of men want a truly submissive woman.

I like the fact that my wife treats me like the man of the house while she takes on a traditional womanly role but let’s be honest that’s all just an illusion that we both like taking part in. Pretty much every large decision we make as a couple is a 50/50 decision.

Opening_Tell9388 · 2023-07-28T18:26:11+00:00

As a man, who is statistically a lot more physically manly than a major majority of people on this sub. I can't stand this arch that chronically online men talk about wanting submissive women.

It's not integral at all.

I do not think that whatsoever. Most people are complete and utterly followers.

Fuck no that's insane. The couple should be mature enough to work it out and have a healthy dialogue to come to a resolution.

Absolutely none. You just become easier to abuse.

MangoMaster1231 · 2023-07-28T19:11:07+00:00

women hate submissive men that’s it

HelicopteroDeAtaque · 2023-07-28T20:40:47+00:00

The submissiveness shit is weird, I just want someone who doesn't take herself seriously in bed, I just want to have fun.

Swimming_Fly_1833 · 2023-07-28T22:21:50+00:00

I'll say this: submission comes about as a result of trust. And not only is trust something earned and not given, it's important to give respect and then doing the work it takes to earn respect. And frankly a lot of guys nowadays want the benefits of ladies submitting to them yet wanting none of the accountability it takes to earn that trust and respect, most of which involves unlearning misogynistic and chauvinistic, redpill dudebro incel-adjacent attitudes that some dudes have. Now of course wanting a kind, classy, respectful and polite girlfriend that's not entitled, bullyish, ornery, shrill, etc. is one thing and that's not misogynistic. Being covertly misogynistic, sexist, controlling, bossy and condescending is what's bad. Plus, the last time I checked, submission in relationships is only reserved for marriage, not boyfriend and girlfriend dating.

KayRay1994 · 2023-07-28T18:23:02+00:00

in many men’s minds (especially around the spaces they bring it up a lot), submissive is just a way for them to say “obedient” - they want a woman they can have control over.

Now, i want to be very clear - submissive doesn’t inherently mean that - but I feel like in context of dating related convos you really have to hear it in context of who’s saying it

Soloandthewookiee · 2023-07-28T18:28:59+00:00

Many of the men who want a submissive wife have this idealized vision of a relationship that has rarely, if ever, truly existed (think 1950's housewife). They're insecure in their masculinity and need to assert it somewhere and relationships/marriage are an area that, in their mind, have a historical precedent. Some of them are also just control freaks.

I personally have no desire for that kind of thing and I think it's ridiculous to pursue it. Life is stressful enough without demanding to take on all household responsibility, and I think this is the part many of these guys don't realize. They just envision household authority and forget that responsibility comes with it.

Hatefuleight-36 · 2023-07-28T19:37:13+00:00

Wanting a woman who is submissive just means wanting someone who is softer, supportive, looks up to him, listens to him, trusts him. Women are often too masculine nowadays; they’re critical, bossy, and overbearing.

OppositeBeautiful601 · 2023-07-28T20:11:59+00:00

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

It's not.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

They aren't

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have final authority in decision making even if his partner disagrees?

No. The couple has to resolve the issues. Most healthy relationships feature compromise in order to resolve issues where the couple disagrees.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men? Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

It's easier for some to be agreeable rather than deal with confrontation and conflict. The price they pay is a lack of power.

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

You could, but you might be wrong. You don't know why he's domineering. It could be because of insecurity, how he was raised, his personality...who know?

2023-07-28T21:16:35+00:00

I don't think it's a binary question. I think some amount of submission is essential. Like if a woman is highly obstinate she's not going to be dateable. Both people have to be open to compromise and in some ways at least some of the time I think a woman should be submissive.

The thing is this also applies to men, but in men it's not submissiveness. It's humoring their woman even when they know their woman is wrong. This is a common trope with male and female comedians that women are right even when they're wrong and if you want a relationship you've got to just let them be right even when they're wrong. This is more like choosing your battles than being submissive but the female equivalent is kind of just sometimes being submissive and letting the man be the decider on some things.

But the idea of just like a submissive woman likes that's her primary personality trait is rediculous. I don't think many men even want that.

You also never know, sometimes all this rhetoric isn't even about personality traits or relationship dynamics but just about bedroom behavior. Lots of men want sexually submissive women and lots of women are sexually submissive.

SlowEffective8146 · 2023-07-28T22:03:57+00:00

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

Let's apply this logic in reverse. If you don't want a feminine man, then that just means you're not comfortable in your own femininity.

See how it sounds?

Sure-Vermicelli4369 · 2023-07-28T18:42:57+00:00

I wanna submit to a woman ‼️

AlmostKindaGreat · 2023-07-28T19:07:26+00:00

This is a tricky question and "submission" and "dominance" are somewhat loaded words. I will try to answer with care.

I don't expect submission to be handed to me because I'm some big, strong man or something. That's bullshit. I don't expect it at all, unless I've earned it.

What do I mean by earning it?

In every LTR and even casual relationship I've been in, the dynamic has been like this: When there is a decision to be made, all the big ones and many of the small ones, we talk about it as equals and consider what the other has to say. This talking continues indefinitely, with no resolution, until I make a decision. She may heavily suggest something like "So do you think we should go with option A...?" but she waits until I say "Yes. Let's do that."

This dynamic plays out in different ways, but in all cases I've been the final decision maker. Note that I was implicitly chosen by her to be the final decision maker. I did not go into it self-appointing myself for this role. It is what women have expected of me.

So I've come to recognize that this is something women want in a man. This is why they say they want a confident and decisive man - they want him to make decisions, obviously! That and also take accountability for the results.

Now, am I being overtly "dominant" and is she being "submissive"? Not really, not in the way we might imagine. I am just taking more of the burden in decision making and accountability, while having an open dialog that is mutually respectful and mostly equal. An outside observer would hardly perceive me as super dominant, and especially not domineering, nor her as very submissive.

So do I want "submission"? The answer is yes, if I usually make good decisions that take her needs and wants into account, I listen to what she wants and take her seriously, and I follow up and take accountability. In that case I want to be trusted by her when I make decisions and hopefully have her respect, if I've earned it. That is as much "submission" as I want.

Is this overt submission, like having some sort of slave? Not at all. It's merely acknowledging my role as decision maker, which she expects of me, and the quality of my performance in this role. Nothing more, nothing less.

The usual caveats apply. Some women want to be "dominant" and the primary decision maker in a relationship. That's fine and the above may not apply in those circumstances. In my experiences this is rare, but maybe your experience is different.

abaxeron · 2023-07-28T19:12:45+00:00

I've seen my fair, unfair, and unbelievably excessive share of women who are just being disagreeable cunts for the sake of it, as a way of self-actualizing, and to basically pussy-whip their partner and humiliate him, occasionally in front of kids.

I rarely mean anything on top of "not this" when I say or think "submissive partner". For me it's basically a woman who knows how to keep her neurotic non-agreeableness in check.

AnonJetlag · 2023-07-28T19:02:55+00:00

Men have difficult lives, our friendships are not as strong as female friendships, and we don’t get as much validation as females do. As such, we like to compensate for that by not pairing up with a woman that puts us down but rather a woman that is agreeable, soft, and helpful to us. We face enough challenges in the real world, at work, and in our social lives; we don’t want to come back home to another “challenge”.

thekinkyhairbookworm · 2023-07-28T18:50:50+00:00

I have serious questions about the places you guys frequent if you think that most men are into submission.

Never said anything about most men.

Not wanting an overtly aggressive, obnoxious and entitled woman who will like them is NOT, nor EVER WAS, wanting submission.

Never said that.

moresleepy1 · 2023-07-28T22:56:03+00:00

Women generally prefer men lead in heterosexual relationships. If I'm going to lead i expect a follower.

SentientNose · 2023-07-28T18:19:38+00:00

Simply the inverse of dominance. Men are attracted to submissive women the same way women are attracted to dominant men.

beleidigtewurst · 2023-07-28T19:01:31+00:00

Are you saying that it isn't a lame strawman, but a real thing someone "asks"?

Given the popularity of "50 shades", could it be just a weird projection?

50 shades of Grey outsells Harry Potter

biscuitcatapult · 2023-07-28T18:25:32+00:00

I don’t demand or ask for submission, but for me it’s not about being submissive, more so being agreeable and not fighting me on every little decision.

I am aware this sounds egotistical, but objectionably speaking, I’m smarter than the average person and I am usually right. But I also know that I can be wrong, and have no issue admitting it when it happens.

I have dated women in the past that are stubborn and insist they are right in an argument. But they are usually wrong, and then it affects both of us. I’m talking about missing flights and trains, getting cab rides, how taxes and bills work, how to fix stuff, how the human body works, etc, the list goes on.

A relationship goes downhill quickly when you notice a pattern where there is a disagreement and you have to decide whether to:

1) let her win the argument, despite knowing the consequences, holding back the “I told you so” for the millionth time, and both of you being in a bad mood, or 2) win the argument, everything goes smoothly, but she gets emotional for the next week and calls you “controlling.”

The thing is, this isn’t true for everyone so it doesn’t work as a generalization for men/women, but I know what works for me.

Edit: Seems I’ve made quite a few people angry with all the downvotes on this. That tracks with this sub.

keenenandraz · 2023-07-28T21:10:41+00:00

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

Women are free to marry a follower if they prefer and wear the pants in the relationship.

Lovers691 · 2023-07-28T18:48:00+00:00

I'll say for majority of men that say they want a submissive woman, they just mean non-argumentative, which in that case I can easily see why you will want a woman like that and I would like a non-argumentative person. In the other actual submissive woman case, I don't think you can necessarily say he is not comfortable in his masculinity, if that's how he wants to have his relationship those her his preferences.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men? Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

This is context dependent, if the guy is a successful trad husband and is an honourable man, the woman will never need to pay for anything and will have someone take care of her.

Filmguy000 · 2023-07-28T18:48:54+00:00

Clappin' cheeks hit different during doggystyle.

Ayaka_Simp_ · 2023-07-28T20:21:57+00:00

I don't understand it either. It's probably a traditional thing? Submissive women are cool but nothing special. Or maybe it's a misplaced need to feel like the leader. Who knows?

MarBitt · 2023-07-28T20:52:35+00:00

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

The more important question is how many women want to lead, decide, be an active initiator and take responsibility both in a relationship and in sex? If you are a dominant woman and want to lead a man, there are many men who will gladly submit to you, because there are far more men who are submissive and want a dominant woman than there are dominant women in society who want a submissive man. You don't have to be a super capable leader, you just need to be willing to lead.

But there are many women who do not want to submit and play the traditional female role, but at the same time they want a man who will play the traditional male role and therefore lead and protect her. That typically means a fight for power in relationship, because there simply aren't enough men in the world who would surpass the modern, capable and educated women enough to automatically have the upper hand physically, intellectually, socially, character-wise..., without her consciously submitting at least a little.

The other solution is a strictly egalitarian approach where neither man nor woman play gender roles, but that surprisingly doesn't sit well with many people. Women often want men to play the male gender role. And the typical play of male and female roles is constructed in such a way that it tends to be more pleasant for both if the woman submits to the man to some extent.

Steakman1 · 2023-07-28T21:03:09+00:00

Im not really into the whole submission thing but I’ll answer the other questions.

what makes you think men are more capable leaders than women?

This is based on probability. It does not mean the worst potential leader as a man is better than the best potential leader as a woman. There are certainly some women who would be better leaders than some men. So based on probability, I think men are more likely to have good leadership qualities over women. It could be based on how men are raised compared to women, or maybe it’s biology. I’m not sure. For example, the idea of being able to take care of those one leads is something men are more likely to have. Men are much more comfortable overall with taking a more provider role in the relationship over women. Another example is men I think overall are more likely to take necessary risks rather than going the safe route. Historically and even today, men are still the ones expected to take charge and take the risk of approaching women. Even though more women today are starting to approach men, it is still seen as not the norm.

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have the final say?

Depends on what the disagreement is about. A good leader doesn’t lead like a dictator and should have a counsel of some sort that advises them and even make some decisions on their behalf. A leader isn’t going to be the smartest in every field and should not act like they are. Certain areas I think the woman should have the final say and others the man should. But of course it’s always best when you and your partner can come to an agreement.

What benefits are there to totally submit to totally submit to men….

I suppose there will be less arguments and the woman won’t be responsible for bad decisions. But on a serious note, I think the idea of total submission could work on rare occasions. But I think the vast majority of men, including myself, are not worthy of that including most men who think they are worthy. Being fit, wealthy, and a manwhore does not make you worthy of total submission from a woman. When I think of a woman totally submitting to a man I think of that man as like some rich crimelord or something. I think the men who are worthy of total submission from women may want to lead the relationship, but don’t want that total submission.

Cant you just look at a man….

Being domineering isn’t a good way to lead. So sure there is probably something wrong with them. But I’m not sure why in these sorts of discussions that there’s this sort of idea conveyed where there’s no such thing as a good leader and that they’re all abusive, arrogant, narcissistic, or whatever.

Anti_Thing · 2023-07-28T21:47:44+00:00

For me it's a matter of religious dogma. I'm not exactly a macho guy. Personally, I'd prefer egalitarian marriage. Nevertheless, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches male leadership in marriage & I'm convinced that the Bible, properly interpreted, must be followed even when it doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm not sure why or to what extent men are more capable leaders than women, though like I said the Bible seems to be clear when it comes to marriage. Aside from explicit commandments in places like Ephesians 5, patriarchy is woven throughout the Bible from start to finish. The Bible seems to send the message that men (particularly older, married men with children) as a whole are generally better leaders than women as a whole, though on an individual level there are many exceptions. There are numerous examples of powerful women in the Bible, & the Christian tradition I belong to (Charismatics/Pentecostals) has often been able to make room for female leadership in the church without compromising traditional patriarchal family structures.

On major issues that concern them as a couple, the man does indeed have final decision making authority, though this should be a last resort; ideally, the couple make decisions through consensus.

I don't believe in total submission to anyone but to God. The authority of husbands is limited just as the authority of church leaders, employers, or the government is. Such authority is subject to critique, even resistance; if it goes directly against God's authority then in fact it must be resisted.

It's probably fair to say that a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship has issues with his masculinity. Rightful authority is no excuse for domineering behaviour.

macone235 · 2023-07-28T22:44:27+00:00

I often hear about men desiring a woman who submits to him. So the question is, why?I also have some additional questions that I hope the men here can answer to gain perspective:

There's two explanations I have.

One, it's either be dominated or be submissive, and men don't like the feeling of losing, so they inherently prefer winning.

Two, men don't mind losing, but prefer winning, because that's what women want them to be - winners.

I believe both can be true as masculinity is rewarded with more than just female attention, but I do think the second explanation is more prevalent as reproduction is a physiological need. More evidence of this is shown in the fact that men have willingly become much more submissive to women over the past century at women's behest, which tells me men are more concerned with pleasing women rather than dominating them.

I know for me personally, it's an internal struggle trying to suppress ideas like my woman should be able to wear whatever she wants vs. not allowing her to, but because I can recognize the root of the issue, I can then firmly say externally that I will not be with a woman who dresses provocatively in public. However, it's not necessarily what I want to do, it's what I need to do.

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

Most women ultimately want to submit to men. Every trait women are attracted to signals "better than them". This ultimately makes men want to be dominant to compete for women. Some species like the spotted hyena will act submissive to women, because that is what induces mating.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

Because women think so. Women mate with men who lead them which inherently makes them better leaders, and thus, I think on average, men are more suitable leaders. Women can say what they want, but they are drawn to men who are leaders outside of their relationships, and especially within them, and as always, actions speak louder than words.

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have final authority in decision making even if his partner disagrees?

Ideally, I think relationships would be egalitarian, but that inherently conflicts with decision making. So someone has to be dominant, and women want the man to be decisive, so I believe his word should be the law, yes. Like it or not, a man telling the woman to clean the house, and her obeying him is much more effective than squabbling about who does what all day with one trying to still get an advantage over the other.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men? Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

What I just said above. Things run more smoothly, and this can bring joy in some ways. It can obviously bring a lot of misery as well since you will inevitably be forced to do things that you don't want to do. Men also become more masculine which women are more attracted to which is a benefit. The trade off is some become too masculine which creates high-risk situations for women.

The biggest benefits I would say are society-wide though.

Pros - Men work more efficiently and are better citizens and create less social strife within communities + more children are born in traditional relationships.

Cons - Men create more social strife outside of their community + economic output is lowered + overpopulation can be a potential threat to resource management.

Societies naturally bobble back and forth between the two to varying degrees.

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

Depends how you define that. If you adhere to the first explanation that I gave in my first point, and you believe that men independently want to be masculine, then men should naturally be comfortable being dominant. Of course, some will pretend to be comfortable, but the majority should still be comfortable.

If you adhere to my second explanation, then technically all men are uncomfortable with their masculinity to a degree. Physically that makes the most sense as it's natural for all things to follow the path of least resistance. This is substantiated by the fact men (and all people) tend to do the least work possible to acquire the most value they possibly can. So essentially, a man who does not acquire a woman will be more uncomfortable than one that does, but one who works harder for a woman will be more uncomfortable than the one that works less for the same woman. Therefore, a man who seems insecure in their masculinity will likely be the person who has to work the hardest to acquire it.

YearnsToDestroySun · 2023-07-28T23:58:59+00:00

Sexual submission to me is how sex is done lol, I only been with 4, but 1300 times, and ya, it's hypergamy/hypogamy thing. In terms how you feel in power.

Knight_of_Inari · 2023-07-29T02:23:06+00:00

1) Because I want a peaceful relationship where I can lead the daily aspects, I dislike conflict and "strong woman" who love to cause drama and scream, I experienced first hand how loud and confrontational woman can make every situation miserable, I want the opposite of that, a submissive one. I also absolutely hate the idea of submitting to a woman, I don't mind doing things out of love and consideration, but being her personal servant is humiliating. I've seen since childhood how the husband is supposed to surrender to the wife, if both fight he needs to go or sleep on the couch, if he wants to play or do hobbies he must do it out of his wife's sight, if he wins money it must go to the woman, I don't like that, in my house I'm king I don't care what any butt hurt feminist says.

2) I'm not sure if men or women are better, I don't care, I know I'm good at it though, there are plenty of relationships where the lady is the "boss".

3) I don't think so, I at least wouldn't do something against my partner's wishes, although I would be the "leader" I wouldn't like to act authoritarian.

4) I'm not sure about "totally" submitting, wouldn't that make her another child? Lmao but average submitting comes with the benefit of not having to make decisions most of the time and just flowing with whatever the other person suggests, I would love that.

5) I mean I'm not comfortable without being the dominant one but that doesn't have much to do with manliness, I just have a phobia towards being at the mercy of others, one could say that the manly thing would be to comply and "eat" your frustrations, but I won't, I refuse no matter how good or bad I look.

katyushas_boyfriend · 2023-07-29T08:00:46+00:00

I often hear about men desiring a woman who submits to him.

A vocal minority of manosphere men.

Reasonable_Bar736 · 2023-07-28T19:07:01+00:00

Men like Submission like how Woman like Dominance it’s rooted in Biology

kvakerok · 2023-07-28T21:47:48+00:00

Alright so I'm a strategic planner and a walking library of knowledge. Those are god-given talents, I excel at that like nobody else. If we're relationship partners, I make the strategic plans, and that's non-negotiable. If my woman wants a change of career, investment plan, business plan, she comes to me. I make the plans, adjust them to her liking, everything comes together and works like a beautiful Swiss watch. I'm happy, she's happy.

Alternatively, my woman doesn't come to me, and makes half-assed uninformed decisions with long-lasting consequences behind my back. Best case scenario, she only fucks up a little bit and loses my trust. Worst case scenario she fucks up a lot and is in the hole a lot of money, fucks up her career, or her business dies a slow, painful, and meaningless death. She also loses my trust. Either way the relationship is dissolved.

I don't care if she has her own bank account, her own properties, etc. It's about her trusting that I act in her best interest even if she doesn't fully understand what is going on. If she doesn't trust me, then she hasn't done her homework in vetting me, or has chronic trust issues.

Now, I don't know about other men, but if someone had asked me to define "submission" in the context of a relationship, I would give them the above example. Maybe if I ever meet a woman who is at least as good as me at it, I would change my opinion, but it hasn't happened in over 3 decades and I'm not holding my breath.

basedmama21 · 2023-07-29T01:56:40+00:00

Women led cities are in ruin. I would also never vote for a female president.

If you have a job, you SUBMIT to your employer every day. I happen to be self employed so I get to enjoy a life free of this. Submitting to a husband does not mean he is domineering. It means you chose and attracted a quality man who can lead your family and make decisions with you but ultimately you need to trust him if there’s some nuance.

Ex: my husband wanted to move out of a large city, I was hesitant. I told him I needed to tour the new area more, once I did I could see why his decision was the best one. Doesn’t mean I am lesser than him.

Rhinosaur666 · 2023-07-28T18:19:05+00:00

Nature of men and women. Men are not supposed to lower themselves for a woman.

OpticalEpilepsy · 2023-07-28T19:00:18+00:00

Only the male version of the "don't need a man" women are expecting her to be a slave/doormat and for the very same reason the "don't need a man" women expect her partner to be santa claus/jeffrey the butler

DerayRevan · 2023-07-28T18:11:42+00:00

I never ask or seek submission from women

Since women l've dated past 4 dates and in the relationship, just naturally do it on their will

If we have disagrees that's completely fine and normal

My girlfriend has many times disagreed with me on many things but at the end of the day she hands the final decision to me

"What makes you think men are more capable leaders than women"

Because men tend to not let emotions get in their judgement, am not saying women can't be leaders or every man is naturally made to be a leader

But on average and in general when comparing both sexes, men always made better leaders throughout history

babazuki · 2023-07-28T19:45:58+00:00

There are things that women typically find attractive related to leadership in their partner. Things like: strength, ambition, motivation, confidence, assertiveness, independence, dependability.

It's good for the relationship if a man has those qualities, because his partner finds them attractive.

It's good for a woman to have those qualities for herself. It's good for her security and ability to survive and thrive on her own. But it doesn't add to the relationship if she has those qualities. Because if a man actually has those leadership traits, he doesn't need it from his partner. He has it taken care of. He doesn't mind leading his partner and he has no need to be led himself.

Submission has negative connotations and there are probably better words to describe this, but if you pick a partner for their ability to lead, then you should just let them do their job. If you pick someone because you think they're good at steering the ship, then don't fight them for the wheel.

If a woman picks a man because he's good at providing and protecting and driving success, then he must continue doing those things for the relationship to last. It's obligatory for him. And if he is good at those things, it's best for the woman to just sit back. Let him do his thing.

Barely-moral · 2023-07-28T20:50:15+00:00

What is the big deal about submission?

It is convenient.

I often hear about men desiring a woman who submits to him. So the question is, why?

It is convenient and it seems a fair reward for the costs payed.

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

It is not. It is convenient.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

One needs leadership when they are at their lowest and need help.

If a man is in such position his partner just for being a woman has another option, another man, interested in her that is not in such position so she has a reason to leave the relationship. She is less likely to stay and lead.

If a woman is in such position chances are that her partner does not have another woman interested in him that is better than his current partner. So he is more likely to stay and lead.

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have final authority in decision making even if his partner disagrees?

The one that has final responsibility should have final authority.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men?

The ones they negotiate for.

Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

Women are always at the mercy of men. Every single day. Every single moment.

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

I could. I don't see how this is relevant.

LoopyPro · 2023-07-28T22:06:35+00:00

Ever seen a ship with two captains? Many people seem to confuse being a leader with being a boss. It might seem that way if you take certain people's word for it, but men and women are supposed to be teammates, not adversaries. It's not about power, it's about a team of two with one common goal. Both members of the team have their respective and complementary qualities that they can use to achieve their common goal. If one person has better leadership qualities, then it makes sense to let that person do what they're good at: leading. Apart from occasional exception, it's fair to say that within that team, men more often flourish in that position.

If a man knows he's a leader, he will not be able to have a functioning relationship with a teammate who rejects his position. If a woman wants to take the lead herself, she is free to partner up with a man who is willing to be led. Nobody's forcing anyone into a "submissive" position as long as people have freedom of movement and are emancipated.

Before people start to throw rocks at me, I am aware that authority is not absolute, and can switch between the two people depending on the occasion. The point I'm making applies more in a general sense.

Key-Faithlessness-29 · 2023-07-29T03:32:35+00:00

No idea. There are some really weird men out there

beleidigtewurst · 2023-07-28T19:04:10+00:00

Isn't it exactly the opposite in the media, by the way?

Aren't we shown how men need to STFU and do what wives say?

E.g. the short Netflix series "The Watcher" (came off quite weird) where his wife literally orders him, as a 5 years old boy, what he MUST do, stressing she is not "asking", but that's what "he has to do"?

Blue_Robin_04 · 2023-07-28T20:57:01+00:00

Women want love, men want respect. Tale as old as time. Every relationship is different, and a man shouldn't hold their woman back in terms of confidence or comfortability, but submission means trusting and caring for your partner. Every guy wants that from a woman.

shadyMFer · 2023-07-29T03:06:52+00:00

Women aren't generally good at executive decision making, because they are frequently able to avoid the consequences of their actions by having men in their life who shield them from harm. Women are also bad at crisis management, because they aren't encouraged to become emotionally desensitized from a young age. Due to these factors, I want a woman who entrusts her decision making to me, because I'm the more qualified party. That's the ideal partner, one who delegates the executive authority in the relationship to the person most capable of wielding it for our mutual benefit.

thekinkyhairbookworm · 2023-07-28T18:05:42+00:00

It is how things have been with men and women throughout the whole cultural history.

Women's sexual instincts act them on submitting top 20% men while men's sexual instincts act them on having as much side chick as possible.

Ask any woman how they like it in bedroom. You'll get overwhelmingly "I love when he dominates me" It is just manifestation of their natural desires.

wtknight · 2023-07-28T18:35:06+00:00

I like egalitarian relationships. But evolutionarily, men prefer women to be submissive because it means that they are less likely to be cuckolded and end up raising another man’s child.

mummydontknow · 2023-07-28T21:16:34+00:00

1- You can't have two leaders. Have you ever tried to play a team based video game with two or more players giving contradicting plans? Yeah that team would get stomped on.

2- Men have historically demonstrated the competency to lead. And I have anecdotes of women being more susceptible to analysis paralysis.

3- Yes, similar to number 1. With the caveat that if you keep seeing your partner making bad decisions then find yourself a competent man.

4- Yes it does put them at the complete mercy of someone else. I don't recommend women be submissive in this day and age precisely because of the scarcity of reliable men and social safety nets.

As for benefits, well you have kinky in your name, you would know that you can achieve new heights in your relationship with trust, and you may be familiar with women being mostly subs in the scene anyway.

5- Is he being a selfish arrogant asshole or is he just confident about what's best for the relationship and taking full accountability?

And finally, the low-key behaviour just is attractive. I'm a shy person myself and want her to be even more shy than I am.

Popeman79 · 2023-07-29T02:18:24+00:00

I sometimes say to my friends I'd prefer a submissive woman. I'll say why:

I don't actually want a submissive woman, but most women I've been with, at some point in time, lose their mind, maybe once in a few weeks/months. It's not "all women all the time", women are wonderful partners to us, but they are emotional beings, and when shit hits the fan their emotions can lead them to do or say things that can really harm a relationship.

Whereas if it's established that if push comes to shove, I get the last word, it makes everything easier.

Now I have to say that I try to be a fair leader: I know I'm level-headed, always respectful, and if my woman trusts me like this I'll be extra careful to always try and take her needs first -as a leader should. Also, I want to add that I cook, clean, can take care financially of a whole family, and I am a proven 'good dad'. It's a good, healthy life I would lead a woman into. I've been with a few very submissive women, and I always was extra careful to always consider their emotions and needs.

I've also been with independent, strong women. Some of these relationships were good too, although with maybe more fights, and more mood swings.

Chemical_Major_1403 · 2023-07-28T18:39:00+00:00

This is just pure manipulation question?! Why do women want rich men when they themselves work?! See no one question women's action while everyone is trying to paint men as evil

Taylor_Momsen · 2023-07-28T21:45:25+00:00

A man is in charge of his success. He must succeed in life or be homeless. There is no room for error. With that kind of weight, a man trusts no one to run his life. A wise man does not trust a woman to make the best decisions for his life. She must be submissive and be willing to follow.

2023-07-28T19:05:53+00:00

Understand that I can't speak for all men, only myself and in generalities.

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

Because someone has to be the one who bears the responsibility, and it's usually the man. If I'm accepting the responsibility, I need the authority that comes with it.

Now, this isn't in all areas at all times. When it comes to my son, I don't undermine or second guess his mother because she has the primary responsibility for his upbringing.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

Men are better at taking risks than women, and you need that ability to lead into unknown areas.

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have final authority in decision making even if his partner disagrees?

Depends on what it is. The ultimate question is "who will be blamed if this gets fucked up?" That is the person with the final say.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men?

She gets freedom from decision making and the stress that comes with being responsible for another person.

Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

A man works to provide and support someone who can, at any time, leave the relationship, take half, get spousal maintenance, and get the kids. Who is at the mercy of whom?

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

You could, but it wouldn't mean shit. We're accustomed to having preferences and opinions incite attacks against our masculinity. It's just another Tuesday.

MarBitt · 2023-07-28T20:19:40+00:00

If I'm expected to play a typical male role, I'm more comfortable if the female role includes an element of submission. Even if only within a role-playing game and symbolically.

For example. If I'm expected to ask out, arrange and pay for the date, then I have no problem with that as long as the woman behaves like a good guest. The host ensures the guest's comfort, safety, takes care of her. If a man pays in a restaurant, then the restaurant cannot be considered a neutral space, it is a space that the man rents, including the services of the staff. It is therefore "his" space and therefore he can invite a woman to this restaurant. And the good guest is somewhat submissive to the host. A good ruler serves his subjects, a good host serves his guest. But still the host is in a dominant, active, giving role and the guest in a passive, submissive, receiving role. It's like dancing. If he is expected to lead, the woman must let herself be led. Or if a man is expected to protect a woman, the woman must allow him to protect her.

Men sometime experience that women want them to play their male role, but the women refuse to play their female role and submit to men at the same time. The result is typically very unpleasant and rude. In a style where a woman expects a man to pay for her on a date not because he invites and she is a guest, but because she is a woman and thus her time and attention is more valuable than a man's time and attention, for example. Or she expects him to bear the responsibility, but without having decision-making powers. But that doesn't make him responsible, it makes him the scapegoat.

NocturnalCoder · 2023-07-28T22:04:54+00:00

Submissive has a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people. In my experience, many woman want to look up to their partner and feel like they can let go trusting their partner has their best interest in mind. You can call this submission, you can call this trust. You can call this whatever you want. The point is: a lot of woman want to feel safe with their partner and the their character;and history will shape and determine how that their definition of safety will look like.

Some want a very masculine leading figure. Some want a following man. Some want a balanced man. Some want something different.

What is universal is they all want to feel safe according to their known world. And those are wildly different (same goes for men, all humans have their own reference framework based on their history)

To give a personal example: people at work call me dominating and steering, private people call me take charge but listening and also chill. (Recent workshop on Personality having to ask feedback from friends and co-workers gave me that feedback/insight). Personality is complex and I personally believe we became pretty quick to judge and fluid with the whole online dating and current believes in terms of relationships. If someone is not exactly like "this" , they are "this and that". People don't seem to go deep anymore. If you don't out out the exact right vibe in the first 5 seconds of conversation, you are out.

I went a bit overboard so tl;dr: a lot of woman like to look up to their partner but that is a blanket statement meaning something different to many people in my believe (taking a shortcut on people who don't even really know what they want and are chasing a projection)

MyUpSeemsDown · 2023-07-28T22:52:11+00:00

The "submissive women" concept I think is usually referred by RPers as ideal image of women, typically claiming that a moral, or biologically / evopsychly "sound" women are suppose to be submissive but modernity has ruined those for women. But I've honestly never heard any real points other than that "for a man and woman to have a good relationship a man is suppose to be the leader and the woman is suppose to submit."

Though I don't agree with RP's notion of submissive, I do think generally women are more likely to hold traits that can be deemed submissive. Imo there's is a huge distinction of characterization between the definition of the act of submitting vs what can be viewed as traits of submissive person, something like a diplomacy, amicability, acceptance etc, which I believe are traits that women hold far more often than men. They're usually positive traits when practiced with moderation especially in society where cooperation between parties are necessary, and the ability to network and socialize is definitely one of the ways to be competent in society.

Warm_Gur8832 · 2023-07-29T00:47:06+00:00

There’s plenty of us that would rather be the submissive partner anyway.

The loudmouths tend to speak over everyone else.

2023-07-29T12:22:13+00:00

What is the big deal about submission?

Most men are not into submission but someone who is a positive addition to their lives. It is women who want a dominant men. We just fulfil its role because it is needed for mutual hapiness. We rather have someone who is useful and can carry her own weight in a complementary manner. Not dominant nor submissive but an useful equal.

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

Ask women. We dont wanna be a slave master. We want a partner.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

Again ask women. But If I were to guess... Better social skills (men cant rely on sexual value so they tend to be better even if theybusually get worse results). Better competence (men cant rely on sexual value so they have years of relying only on themselves and leading their families to success) and stronger maturity (Men are not stopped or swayed by social pressures or many other things like their impulses, as ours are destructive)

If a couple disagrees on something, does the man have final authority in decision making even if his partner disagrees?

No. Arguments should be laid out and the plan made based on said arguments. Only if one part refuses being reasonable that they can be overuled.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men? Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

Again go ask women. We do not understand why women have this drive to submit to us. We just do what is needed to happiness.

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

No. Cause for the most part it is part of dealing with women. At best you get religious men and kids who never had to deal with a submissive asking for one... having what amounts to a living sex robot is not interesting.

No-Rough-7390 · 2023-07-29T13:26:37+00:00

The most important area of submissiveness for me is in the bedroom. If that’s taken care of, then everything tends to flow pretty well from there. Just what I’ve seen.

I also will say, I do value ambition however that trait needs to be directly tied to family.

jaypb182 · 2023-07-29T14:23:24+00:00

This is one of the major disagreements I have with the red pill. I personally have zero interest in being with a submissive woman, but I also don't like the bully, girlboss, antagonistic types either. In fact, thinking about it, I would choose the submissive one if those were the two options. I genuinely just want someone who's equal to me.

I think it has to do with conservatism and religion. The guys that say they want a submissive woman are very likely to be those things, but the rest of us probably don't care for it.

2023-07-29T17:14:50+00:00

Why is submission from a woman integral to a relationship?

Becuase most women now a days will only date thier intellectual superiors and no one wants to debate somone dumber then them all the time.

What makes you think men are more capable leaders than woman?

Less emotion, more confident, more physically capable, taller, higher % of high IQ population basically everything that makes a good leader men have more then women.

What benefits are there for women to totally submit to men? Is it not completely putting themselves at the mercy of another?

The benefit is they get what they want. Women want a much higher amount of security in relation to agency compared to men, so if they give a lot of that extra agency over they never wanted it matches want they want. You evne prove this in your comment bc that last part is what every woman says when you ask them to submit, they say "what if hes not the right guy" or "what if he leaves me" ; they say anything to show that they value agency in principle.

Can’t you just look at a man who feels the need to be domineering in his relationship and say he is not comfortable in his masculinity?

No becuase a man like this doesnt really need any particular woman or any women, he has his terms and women accept them if they want or leave if they dont. He does not apply pressure to women to be this way, they simply choose to becuase he would be their best option.

2023-07-29T17:27:12+00:00

I don't care about a woman being "submissive," but I think if women want a man who is "dominant," then these things kinda have to co-exist

MotherPermit9585 · 2023-07-29T18:50:55+00:00

Destiny the streamer has said in many redpill debates that in the real world each partner is going to have their areas of expertise and be the “leader” in those specific domains and then make decisions as a couple on what’s better for their family. That’s the way it should be imo. I have a friend who is a doctor but also from a conservative Christian background and her parents took medical advice regarding covid vaccines from her older brother who happens to be a truck driver. That’s just ridiculous but it’s what happens when men are elevated as leaders in areas that they have no expertise.

Most_Read_1330 · 2023-07-30T03:12:41+00:00

I think people are too focused on the word. Think of it as "defer". She's capable of making a decision but defers it.

Comfortable-Dare-307 · 2023-07-30T10:51:39+00:00

Men need to feel in control.

No offense, but men are better leaders than women. We don't get as emotional, we have better ideas, and we do more work. It may sound misogynistic, but it's still true.

Men and women should work together. No one has the final say. Unless it is about their property they had before they met you.

One benefit of a submissive woman is, let's face it, a better marriage. But why? Again, men need a sense of control. If a woman is dominant, and thus bitchy, men will resent them and be less likely to help out. Thus leading to divorce.

Maybe. Men shouldn't be too dominate. There should be negotiation on each side. But if women weren't so stubborn and gave a little, marriage would last longer.

Believe it or not, men are more susceptible to emotional termiol, but we just hide it better. Women can express themselves. Men are taught we can't. Men are more likely to dwell on problems, take more time to get over a break up, etc. Studies in infants show that males respond to pain more (by evidence of crying more, especially when a parent is gone). We need to work together. But more and more women are unwilling to do that.

Title	What is the big deal about submission?
Author	thekinkyhairbookworm
Upvotes	53
Comments	319
Date	July 28, 2023 5:59 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/15c4h2b/what_is_the_big_deal_about_submission/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-the-big-deal-about-submission.1226775 https://theredarchive.com/post/1226775

Comments

Aren't we shown how men need to STFU and do what wives say?