[X-Post from /r/tinder] Every Guy Needs To See This...

[–]I3ut 155 points156 points157 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[+]snarkinator 10 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

The part that's scary is that, according to some people, yes can later mean no.

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[+]DewArmy 10 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

PIV?

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[+]InternetSafety101 10 years ago* [recovered] (27 children) | Copy Link

I had a friend tell me she was raped. I was shocked and she ended up telling me how it went down. Turns out they were messing around and he started to go a little further than she wanted to go. I said "Did you tell him no or tell him to stop?" She said "No I was in shock I didn't know what to do! I couldn't believe what was happening!" And I sat there like wtf and then she goes on to tell me "Yeah that's not the only time he raped me either! Every time I went to his house he would rape me..." At this point I had heard enough I said "Ok that sentence right there. That doesn't sound like rape... Because you don't keep going back to your RAPISTS house!"

We went on talking about it and she ended up admitting she just had screwed up and felt bad about it. Literally slandering some guys name because she felt bad. It made me furious.

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 87 points88 points89 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ILikeMyDogNotYours 29 points30 points31 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GSstreetfighter 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CaptCrit 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry for replying really late but I had a similar experience. In high school I dated a girl for about a year. We lost our virginity to each other. Obviously it was a long, drawn out process of being awkward high schoolers and constantly not knowing what was normal so we constantly asked "is this ok?" Everything was consensual because, ya know, consent is sexy. Anyways, we both enjoyed ourselves and had sex several more times throughout our relationship but eventually parted ways.

Fast forward a few years and we're both in college. Reconnect with her and decide to meet up to catch up in person. We start to talk about old times like ex-couples do and she bursts out "YOU RAPED ME!" I'm taken aback because like I said everything was consensual. As a young college male I was scared because if she ever told an authority it's basically her word versus mine and we know how that usually goes.

Anyways, it never went further than that thankfully. Haven't seen her since and don't really plan on it for my own safety.

[–]ryeshoes1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]queequeg092S -7 points-6 points-5 points 10 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

That's not necessarily true that she wouldn't go back, if mental illness is involved. And some people do freeze up, but usually they'll protest with actions which gets the message across to most peopke. Tbh, it sounds like this person had previous emotional issues.

I want to say, similar things happened to me(stayed with the person) I had previous emotional and mental health issues, but in my situation I told him no or to stop and then I'd freeze up. I think a lot of girls expect a guy to read them, but that doesn't happen often during sex. I expected the guy to read me, and when he didn't I felt horrible. I'd wonder how someone could keep going and not look at my face or hear what I was saying and have to stop themselves. But I said no.

For any guys afraid of this shit, I'd seriously recommend paying attention to a girl's facial expressions, keep your ears open, and asking a girl who seems quiet or a little less excited about sex than you are, if she's enjoying it throughout. Girls normally don't mind some talk, and that way if she claims a false rape later, you have that to go back on. You were checking in and being caring and responsible, so you've got your ass covered.

This girl sounds like she just had previous issues that caused her to not act in this situation. And it doesn't sound like she spoke with him either to try and gain any understanding. Who knows, he may have felt horrible if he heard her version of what happened. I feel like all this false rape talk just has to do with women's skewed view on themselves sexually. But I do want to say that coercion and pressure is completely fucked up and considered rape- but not necessarily legally. Just don't do it, and don't let a girl do it to you either.

[–]Lance_lake 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]queequeg092S -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Haha well you make a great point. I think body language should be taken into account, but women also need to be taught to speak up and not be afraid of hurting feelings or making things weird or anything else.

I do think verbal consent is a really smart choice and you can't rely on non-verbal cues, but if something tells you something is wrong(uncomfortable expression or anything), it wouldn't hurt to ask-but don't obsess over it.

Overall, verbal cues are most important, I was just recommending to pay attention to body language to avoid people who claim false rape. Just because if she looks uncomfortable, then at least you checked and she had a chance to say something-if for whatever reason she was avoiding it. This shouldn't be a responsibility even though it's a nice thing to do once in a while, and people having sex should be mature enough to speak their mind and not be shy, but most people aren't. Things need to change with women not speaking up, and hopefully they will in time.

I mean, I've been in a relationship for 6 years and my bf and I usually talk about when we want sex, but spontaneity is great. Though he gets that if I push a hand away, ignore him (this doesn't actually happen often at all) and or say no, he should stop. And in the middle of sex he has stopped plenty of times if I start to look uncomfortable or something to ask if I'm ok. I like that a lot because it feels more intimate, but there are also times when he does something and I reciprocate and nothing is said, and I personally don't see the problem with that when you trust each other's judgement.

I think talking is safe and a good call most of the time, especially when dealing with casual sex. In a relationship that's longer term, you eventually get a connection with someone where I think you are pretty safe to judge if it's ok and you learn the other person's body language. If you're not talking, body language is good to pay attention to anyway, but don't obsess over it. I guess when it comes down to it, you should access your relationship to the other person. But when in doubt, talk is most reliable. Even if she says she didn't consent, at least you can look back and remember her wanting to do it and saying it. Sorry if this is a little jumbled btw, I wanted to respond while I was still thinking about all of this, but I'm a little tired. Haha

[–]Lance_lake 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]queequeg092S 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Np :) And yeah, I totally agree with everything you've said. I think most of them probably are just those who feel uncomfortable afterwards too, which I guess means obsessing over precautions won't do much anyway. :/ I would just hope that it'd make them think more the next day, but I suppose these people have to be heartless, so it probably wouldn't. :/ Thinking of things this way makes me regret my initial post because it makes it seem like something avoidable on a guy's part, but that's not what I meant and I think you're right. Everyone involved should pay attention and everything, my hopes would just be that that would make someone hesitate before calling it rape and feel more comfortable speaking up if they were uncomfortable right then and there. But again, those people shouldn't be having sex anyway, and they're already heartless and possibly crazy, so I'm sure those people would still rarely hesitate to claim false rapes. Which just sucks.

And that's great that you're open to talking and being clear :) but yeah, every 5 minutes would be pretty excessive haha. And definitely agree that if you aren't mature enough to be open, clear, and say no, sex should definitely not be on your agenda any time soon. I still feel that instead of teaching teenagers and young adults to not have sex, we should totally be teaching them shit like this, like how to be assertive, to be confident in what you want, and for sure, not to fuck someone's life over but instead deal with the guilt.

[–]Lance_lake 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]WPKage 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel like all this false rape talk just has to do with women's skewed view on themselves sexually.

I think it's more that men/boys have been so demonized that we're seen as unworthy to talk to or openly communicate with.

99.9% of guys want nothing more than to please the girl they're with, they want to do what makes her happy. But by what you're saying then there's a no small percentage of women that have so convinced themselves that men are such monsters that they can't even talk to us.

On top of that we have to be practically psychic or pesto we're rapists, god help the boys growing up with social anxiety/socially awkward.

It's gotten to the point where it's literally easier to call a guy a rapist (which shouldn't be a light charge to levy against someone) than it is to simply talk to him like a fellow human and avoid the ambiguity that leads these "technical rapes" in the first place.

Maybe instead of consent classes we should teach women not to do anything remotely date-like/intimate with any guy they don't see as human enough to talk to.

[–]queequeg092S 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]I_am_Anon_ 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

For any guys afraid of this shit, I'd seriously recommend paying attention to a girl's facial expressions, keep your ears open, and asking a girl who seems quiet or a little less excited about sex than you are, if she's enjoying it throughout. Girls normally don't mind some talk, and that way if she claims a false rape later, you have that to go back on. You were checking in and being caring and responsible, so you've got your ass covered

This sounds like some BS. Why do we have to walk on eggshells when it comes to sex. None of my friends or I go around just expecting sex. How about this, if we mutually start fooling around and then we mutually start having sex let's just call it good. Sex is complicated enough, I don't need to worry about wether she changed her mind or not, by checking her blood pressure, verifying it against an enjoyment chart and seeing if I'm still within the bounds of mutual sex or not. I gotta worry about my penis staying hard all while not popping off too quick. How about this, if you want to have sex with me great, let's have sex! If you don't want to have sex with me, then cool, let's not have sex.

[–]queequeg092S 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to. But being aware of yourself and your partner is respectful. For both people. I was giving advice, which doesn't need to be taken. I just thought it was a decent suggestion. Also, some things seem mutual, but may not be. Women are very non verbal, and yes, that is a flaw for them that needs to change.

I agree though, if someone doesn't want to, then they shouldn't. If they do, they should. And they should state if they want to continue. But on the other side, people should be aware and communicate. I'm more talking about staying on the safe side to avoid women who falsely claim shit. But I get that you shouldn't have to to begin with. And that just requires education for women, and men.But yeah, suggestions aren't demands. And I'm not looking to put anyone down or start shit with people. I just liked some of the things I found here and decided I would try to contribute in a non confrontational manner. I mostly want people to be aware that mental illness is a thing, and it can cause all kinds of shit that makes no sense for a healthy minded person. Even looking back, I know how stupid I looked as well. Lots of women are unecessarily complex and fucked up.

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[–]FightingPolish -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure a lot of it is copy and pasted, it's drawn on a computer, not paper. It's a fairly in depth comic with quite a few panels put out at a relatively high volume. I think the art is pretty good, he has his style that he draws his characters in but I don't think it's the same thing every time, the characters are done from lots of different angles and perspectives and they seem realistic and human like in their appearance to me. You can see it in the different angles and body poses shown in the OP. If you're not a fan of the style that's fine, I'm not a fan of the style of the Cathy or Doonsberry comics, but everyone that does a comic strip comes up with their own style that works for them so they can pump out as much content as fast as they can and I'm sure that a lot of that is taking shortcuts and reusing material so it doesn't need to be done again over and over.

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[–]kileyjay0311 224 points225 points226 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

I dated a guy who went on a date with a girl about two months before we started seeing each other. One day we were at the mall and saw this girl and he dragged me out suddenly without explanation. When we got to the car I managed to get him to tell me what was going on. Apparently he took this girl on a date to the restaurant we worked at, afterwards they went back to his place which was in the country in the middle of nowhere. When they got there they shared a joint and then had sex. She wanted to go home then so he took her home. By the time he got home, she had texted and said she decided that he had raped her and was going to the hospital to have a rape kit done. A couple days later, two cops came to our work and escorted him out. He spent 10 days in jail. The girl had told the police that he was 170lbs, he was really 130, that he had one of his coworkers drug her salad dressing and that he took her a confusing way to her house so she wouldn't know where they were going. Basically the police just told my ex to stay away from her and leave anywhere he is at that she is. She came into our place of work and declared that she couldn't sit in his section because he was her rapist. I was a host at the time and could have punched her in the throat. He was always very sweet to me and never tried to force anything on me. I've met the girl and have talked to her since the guy and I have broken up and she's a hot mess. She made up so many stories in the hour I talked to her that she couldn't remember all the details she said. It's so sad that there are women out there that even when having a good time and a nice date with a guy, they are still willing to just ruin a guy's life for attention.

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yeah I wouldn't go to a church to find women, I have known a few and some of them are shrewder then the ones who don't go to church. There was a guy I knew a few years ago who was going out with a girl who was in one of those evangelist churches and man she was making him crazy. She slept with him and then was in hysterics because she felt guilty for "adultery", broke up with him, got back together because she "loved" him. Broke up with him because her "church" did not approve. Then begged him to come back. Rinse and repeat for two years and he was making life miserable for the people around him because he was in constant "give me advice" mode while doing nothing. So yeah I learned that lesson by proxy. Another lesson I learned by proxy is how a young woman was two timing with two guys who were best friends telling each that she wanted to keep it a secret because it was more romantic that way(plus she was really hot) so both idiots agreed. Went on for quite a few months. Ended badly for the guys, the girl just skipped to the next one. Lesson learned, if its secret and seems too good to be true then it is. A third lesson was of a girl going out with a guy and then trying to marry him promising him stuff like ability to invite other girls into the bedroom or even just cheat on her, turns out all she wanted is to stay in the country. Another lesson was personal, liked a girl, asked her if she wanted to be more than friends, told me she didn't want that with anyone at the moment, find her in bed with my brother a week later. Lesson learned. Plus considering the marriages of my relatives...well I am not sure its worth the trouble really. I have been on dates but it never got anywhere beyond that.

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According to her, she already saw the rapist.

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[–]SigmundFloyd76 42 points43 points44 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Right? No kidding. The feeling of regret that comes with "bad sex" (yes men have that too) is an emotion in and of itself.

That weird feeling of awkwardness, guilt, shame etc. Apparently, there is a thing called "regret asymmetry", and the idea is that woman have this powerful sense of regret too, but more so.

I can only imagine having that particular emotion coupled with "he raped you" drumbeat from every source is what makes all these girls claim they were raped.

They no longer have any accountability for their own actions. I promise you that in many cases, the guy feels just as awkward and regretful. Bad sex is usually bad for everybody involved.

To suffer the shame of an awkward sexual encounter and then be accused of rape, as if it wasn't already a bad experience, must be absolutely spirit crushing.

I've had my spirit broken, it sucks.

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All rapes matter bro!

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[+]Drabbeynormalblues 10 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

I can't speak on behalf of all rape victims but I can speak for me. My mom raped me from when I was in diapers until I was 10 years old and sold me for $20 a session to other pedophiles. When I tried to tell my aunt and grandma what was happening I was told I had a vivid imagination. When I persisted they told me they were going to send me to a mental institution and lock me up for life. I was a 5 year old child at the time.

What I can say about rape victims is that they don't always act logically and my default setting is to believe them. There are those that regret what happened and use rape as an excuse to explain their feelings but in my experience those are very few and far between. In my experience I have ran across the following scenarios.

Consent can be revoked at any time and that includes being in the act. Just because I consent to what we were doing 5 minutes ago and was into it in a text message I sent you 45 minutes before does not mean that someone has the right to say, do, or touch me in a way that I don't like. I think we can all agree that's reasonable. If you're a guy that's not into anal play and suddenly a woman tries to push a dildo into your butt and you don't want it but you consented to the sex in a text message you sent her 3 hours before without knowing about the dildo I think we can agree that consent for that act would be revoked because you're not into anal play. If I'm in a relationship with someone does that mean that even if I say yes to sex that they have the right to do whatever they want even if I don't like it and don't want it? I don't think so.

Drugs is another factor that has to be taken into consideration. How much is too much until you legally can't consent because you're stoned or drunk out of your mind? Would it be reasonable to say that someone consented when they were at a point that they were blacked out because they said yes as the time but have no idea what they did until they checked their phone the next morning and saw that they slept with someone? At what point does it pass from being merely buzzed to fully drunk? I'm not a medical doctor and I don't have a magical test to be able to judge and say nah you were just drunk and regret it versus you were unable to consent. In the eyes of the law drunk or otherwise people who use drugs can't consent and that's the reason why.

What if I'm stone sober but I feel coerced? I just want to play guitar but they keep caressing my leg and trying to kiss my neck. I tell them no and they back off but try again 10 minutes later. This keeps happening and you keep telling them no. You get up and go to the bathroom and they corner you in the hallway and give you a big kiss and caress your butt. It's been two hours now and you have told them no 100 times but they complain that they feel neglected because you haven't had sex in 3 days. You finally say yes so they will leave you alone. You're not into it and they decide to get a little rough with you because they've wanted it for 2 hours now and they're ready to go but you don't want it rough. You tell them to slow down or be gentle and they continue to be rough with you. You don't want it and it hurts and you try to make it stop but they continue to go on anyway. Is that rape? Is it consensual because I agreed to the original act in the hallway but when I tried to get them to stop repeatedly being rough they continued to do something that I clearly did not want and did not like?

The flight or fight response is different for everyone. Some people fight, some people flee, and others freeze. My default setting is generally freeze but various jobs have made me more into a fight person now because I have to be to be effective at the job. For a person who freezes when they're scared when they're faced with a situation that scares them they know they should do something about it but find themselves unable to move or do anything to stop it. A great example of this is when my fiance and I were doing construction on our house we had a solid heavy door propped up against a wall that we were about to install. My dog was wagging her butt excitedly and knocked the door and it started to fall on top of her. I was standing right next to it and could have easily caught it before it fell and smashed my dog but instead I instantly panicked and just stood there like an idiot and said mechanically "the door is going to fall on the dog." I willed my limbs to move but nothing happened. My dog took off running and the door just missed her. I do a lot of plumbing underneath houses. The same thing happens with me and bugs. It does not strike me as the least bit odd that if someone revokes consent in the middle of sex that they might have a similar experience and be unable to move or stop it.

After a person is raped they might go into a deep denial about what just happened. Women are told that a rapist will probably be some shady guy in dark clothes that you don't know. Nobody ever tells you that the person you've been seeing for 6 months may do something that makes you uncomfortable and that you don't want and either they don't hear or acknowledge that you don't want it anymore. You just want things to go back to normal. So you talk and act as if nothing happened because you don't know how to process what happened. I liked it up to x point and then after x point I didn't want it anymore but it continued even after I protested. What if I said no but didn't fight him off? Was I raped? Would it be rape if I just said no versus if I said no and fought as well? I can't be raped because we're dating / friend / we know each other. So you try sex again but you find you feel full of fear or disgusted or both. You don't know or understand what's going on. You try to talk with your partner about it and they act as if they don't know what the hell you're talking about and call you crazy for bringing it up.

Suddenly you see a post from some bewildered guy who says that they have text message proof that their girl consented to sex. There are women out there that genuinely do regret what happened and consider that rape when it's not. In my experience those are very few and far between. I don't judge either party involved because I wasn't there and I'm only hearing one side of the story. What I do know is that we need to raise awareness of consent for both males and females and what that looks like. It seems to me that it would avoid some of these situations from happening or at least change the way we communicate with each other.

[–]marswithrings 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Consent can be revoked at any time and that includes being in the act.

but it does not include after the fact. and if you think the exception might be, as an example - yourself, as a child - the problem is as a child you could not legally consent in the first place. so i would argue that's not a retroactive revocation of consent, there just never was any consent.

honestly the rest of the paragraph following that sentence, i think everyone here agrees with. the one stipulation is that this revocation of consent must be communicated. it's not acceptable to change your mind in your head and just keep it to yourself, if the "rapist" has no idea you no longer want to continue, how are they supposed to know?

Drugs is another factor that has to be taken into consideration.

they are, certainly. but i literally saw a post a couple days ago where some "feminist" was arguing if a woman has "come into contact with" any sort of mind-altering substances "within the last 72 hours" it is rape. i think everyone here would agree if someone is passed out they can no longer consent, but most people here think some of the standards other people are trying to push are ridiculous. we hold people responsible for when they drive drunk, why not when they sex drunk? perhaps more importantly, why do we only seem to care when the woman is drunk, but it doesn't matter if the man is drunk?

it's a hard line to define, i totally agree. especially because everyone reacts differently to drugs. but i think if a couple likes to hit the bar for a bit before they come home and have sex they should have the freedom to do so.

What if I'm stone sober but I feel coerced?

coercion negates whatever "consent" was obtained. i am not quite convinced the situation you described is coercion... it's a little hard for someone not in the situation to judge that, but i think you might have used the word a little too lightly there.

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

i definitely didn't see any threats. i'm not sure persistence is interchangeable with force. either way, the trend continues - i think everyone here agrees there is a line that can be crossed. but i think most of the people here think the incredibly stringent rules that "feminists" are pushing are just puritanical.

if we made those standards into law we'd be severely limiting the freedom of normal couples to enjoy sex the way they want it, and especially if we allow consent to be revoked after the fact, we make it so there's no meaningful distinction between a guy who had sex and a rapist.

[+]Drabbeynormalblues 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with what you said but there's a huge difference between not consenting in the moment and revoking consent after the fact and my post never said anything about people revoking consent after the fact but people who were not consenting in the moment. If that was unclear that was my fault because that was not the intention of my post. Revoking consent after the fact is wrong. What I was trying to get across was that there are sometimes reasons where things are missed in moment and that may be why it looks like some cases are revoked after the fact when in reality they weren't consenting in the moment. I also wasn't trying to compare what I went through to any of it. I'm just stating that I am a rape victim because the OP I was replying to wondered what a rape victim's perspective would be.

As far as drugs go it's already law that people who are incapacitated by drugs can not consent to sex but 72 hours is long enough for someone to sober up. There's a difference between that an having 8 drinks at the bar and getting raped 45 minutes after leaving the bar. When you don't hold people responsible for sex that they have when incapacitated that opens up a lot of doors to victim blaming. When you victim blame you shame them and people are unwilling to come forward who are true victims. This is different than holding someone responsible for drunk driving. I can plan ahead and get a designated driver and take measures to ensure I don't hurt others. There's no one I can call to make sure that my booty call doesn't come over at 3 am and engage in non consenual sex with me after I've consumed so much that I'm blackout drunk.

There is also nothing stopping people from having a few drinks at the bar and coming home and having sex. I have been with my partner for 13 years and we've had sex while having a few drinks many times and I don't consider that rape. There's nothing wrong with that in the slightest and I never meant to imply there was. The problem becomes when one or both becomes so incapacitated that they are not capable of consenting in the first place or that they don't hear or understand that consent is being revoked. If my guy is plowing away and I'm slurring my words "naaaa" and what I'm trying to say is no because I'm on the verge of passing out and he continues away that's a problem.

Coercison is complicated. Like I said in my post I'm just using real life examples that I have seen. I have also seen many where there's force involved but I was going for examples where the guys aren't habitual rapists and have no intent to rape but find themselves in a situation where consent is being revoked instead of someone who is out trolling for a victim. Maybe I should have used more forceful examples to make my point more clear.

Some of these issues of consent apply just as equally to men. I have talked with many men on this sub who are in denial that they were raped because they believed they can't be raped in spite of not wanting it. The issues with victim blaming and not being believed are very similar.

[–]marswithrings 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

my post never said anything about people revoking consent after the fact

well, perhaps not explicitly, but you said "consent can be revoked at any time" in a thread that is specifically about people revoking consent after the fact, so i think the confusion was understandable. i'm glad to hear you're not defending that idea, though.

I can plan ahead and get a designated driver and take measures to ensure I don't hurt others. There's no one I can call to make sure that my booty call doesn't come over at 3 am and engage in non consenual sex with me after I've consumed so much that I'm blackout drunk.

kinda missing the point of the comparison. again, everybody agrees if somebody has literally up and passed out they are not able to consent.

the comparison is about the person's agency. if someone is drunk, but cogent enough to come on to somebody else and initiate sex, why are they not held responsible for that?

if that same person chose to get in a car and drive off, we would hold them responsible for the choice they made while they were drunk. why are we arguing they are not responsible for sexual advances they make while drunk?

your comparison is to a person who is so completely incapacitated they probably wouldn't even be able to get themselves in the car to try to drive off in it. if they've lost the ability to drive drunk, certainly they've lost the ability to consent.

Coercison is complicated.

to say the least, haha. but i think a lot of people are using that word to describe situations where force/threats are not present. look at the other guy who responded to my comment, saying that coercion does not negate consent - but he says this because to him, "tricks" count as coercion.

coercion would be slightly less complicated if we didn't allow the definition of the word to become quite so convoluted...

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[–]Sadistictoastie15 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because what feminism should be and what feminism is are very different things. It's fine to say "well as a feminist, i don't do these things". But these things still happen, and it is because of modern feminism that it happens. I do believe in equal rights, everyone with a brain should, but in almost all the western world, women have equality (that's not saying they're treated exactly the same, society in some ways favours men, in some way favours women, both sides have their disadvantages) But most modern feminists seem to either state that women are still an oppressed class (the wage gap, the 1 in 5 rape "statistic"), or say that women are the only one's with problems.

They are responsible for the fact that a man can be kicked out of university, even after he's been deemed not-guilty. Even being accused of it, can ruin their life. So now more and more people make false accusations, or use these stupid defintions of rape " i regrretted it so it was rape" "we were both drunk, so even though i said yes it was still rape" "he lied about his job/marrying me/his wife so it was rape", and many feminists support these rediculous definitions of rape, which makes it harder for real victims to get help.

The problem is, most modern feminists i've met, want to seem like victims, when in reality they're more priviledged than anyone else.

And don't respond with "not all feminists", because i know not all feminists do this, i understand that. But the loudest feminists, the ones that seem to make the most impact do. It's a very rare day when i see anyone who calls themselves a feminist go against these people who are encouraging this.
Then again, it's a rare day when i see a feminist that isn't like this, but it's for that reason so many people refuse to call themselves feminist, prefering egalitarian, because so many feminists have corrupted a movement that actually stood for something, and instead of adressing real issues of equality (the treatment of women in the middle east, the rotheram rape scandle in the UK, the circumcision of males in america). They just create nonsense issues (stare rape, mansplaining, meninism) or just make them up (1 in 5 women get raped, or the wage gap).

[–]GSstreetfighter2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]olican1011 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im sorry. What? "feminism: the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." amything more than this has nothing to do with feminism.

Being a feminist does not make you a man hater any more than being pro-black makes you a white hater. Sure there are pro-black people that hate white people, but should we judge the whole community by those select few?

Women are still an oppressed class in the moddle east. I have personally witnessed a woman working in IT get asked if a male was available to help them with their issue.

If a person identifies as feminist and wrongly states that women get paid less than men (im the same field), is that an issue with feminism or that person? The answer isn't feminism so why blame feminism?

If someone LGBT makes a mistake, is it the LGBT communities fault or that person's fault?

Wtf does false rape accusations have to do with "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."? Absolutely nothing. Why blame non-guilty feminista for the actions of guilty feminists? Its like blaming all LGBT people for a few having HIV.

"I regretted it so it was rape" has NOTHING to do with feminism. Maybe blame the people promoting this bullshit instead of blaming a movement that, by definition, CANNOT have anything to do with this. Are they women? Why not blame all women? Are they white? Blame all white people. Are they christian? Blame all christians. See how obscene that sounds?

I am a male. I completely fail to see how identifying as a feminist makes me a victim. Surely under your (false) ideal of feminism i would be the villan?

Its a rare day when i see somebody straight at a gay pride. Doea that mean straight people cant be pro-lgbt?

Stop judging a huge community by the actions of a few. Next you will be saying that as a gay male i will be having sex with a different guy every night. When i have been in a commited relationship for 4 years.

Judging people by what they are instead of who they are doesnt help anybody. The only reason people are so against feminism is because people like yourself have no idea of what feminism is and judge feminism instead of individuals.

Feminism means "the advocacy of women's rights" nothing more. Nothing less.

[–]Sadistictoastie1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The thing is, i'm not judging it by the actions of a small few, i'm judging it by the majority of feminists i've met in real life, the majority that have any effect online, and the majority i read or see about in the news.

You keep throwing that definition around, that is what feminism, is supposed to be. But now, the vast majority have corrupted it, and so modern feminists claim they advocate for women's rights, but they don't.

And it is modern feminism that pushes the bullshit i regretted it was rape, it is feminists that push that women get paid less than men.

I judging people by what they do, not what they are, and quite frankly, the vast majority of feminists seem to act like this. You can say "but that's not the definition" as much as you like, but it doesn't reflect the actions.

People who call themselves feminists, push these ridiculous rules that get men expelled even when proven innocents, no "real" feminists come to stop them.
A typical response to that is "it's not a women's issue, so that's not our problem" and that's fine. You don't have to stop them, or even publicly disagree with them. But if the vast majority of feminists that i see in reality, online or in the news act this way, then that's what feminism is.

Saying feminism is all about the advocacy of women's rights is like saying "PETA is for the advocacy of animal rights, So you should support it, just because most of their major members and opperations kill thousands of domesticated animals and act like eco-terrorists, doesn't mean that's what they're like."

You can say that's the definition of feminism, and at one point, you would have been right, and many people might believe in it, and actually try to achieve it. Same with PETA, many people who support them genuinly want to help animals, and just don't know about the things that PETA uses it's money for.

I mean, even if PETA does kill thousands of innoccent animals a year, you can't blame them, because by definition they CANNOT commit harm to animals.

What feminism is in theory, and what it is in reality are two different things.

But even if Feminism is about women's rights, it still raises problems, because feminists switch between "it's about equality" and "it's about women"

If men try to meet to talk about male issues, they get protests, get the fire alarms pulled, etc. Because one major problem is, most feminists, seem to not believe men have any issues in the world at all, and hate it if people try to say there are.

Technically, feminism as a concept, is about equality, but modern feminists are not. Not from what i've seem

[–]olican1011 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The thing is, i'm not judging it by the actions of a small few, i'm judging it by the majority of feminists i've met in real life, the majority that have any effect online, and the majority i read or see about in the news.

I am from England so it may be different. But in my language (english), feminism means nothing more than woman's rights. Every person I know bar two are feminists. Those said two are basically anti-woman. Neither believe that women should be able to work. I don't socialise with these people as they aren't the kind of people that I would want in my life. Feminism literally means "woman's rights" nothing more. Sure you may have met some crazy people that identify as feminist and are crazy. But I have met some homophobic heterosexual people. Does that make all heterosexual people homophobic? it doesn't at all.

And it is modern feminism that pushes the bullshit i regretted it was rape, it is feminists that push that women get paid less than men.

Feminist =/= Feminism. Someone can be feminist and have a belief that has nothing to do with feminism.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbxSGu-SDg She explains what feminism is.

I do not understand this whole thing of men's rights advocates attacking feminists. Surely we should work together? I mean, don't we want the same thing? Equality?

Men and women both face issues. Femisism is also for men, not just women. Most Feminists believe that there is too much shaming on effeminate men. Which there is. Kids get bullied if they aren't "alpha male".

PETA is a company. Not a movement. They don't have a definition. What you are saying is basically "I have seen lots of people say "I could care less" therefore that saying is correct. When it isn't, the saying is "I couldn't care less"." Just because you have seen something incorrect does not make that thing correct.

Most men's rights advocates I have seen are anti-feminist. does that mean that the men's rights movement is anti-women? not at all. And you probably wouldn't like it if I did state that as fact.

[–]Sadistictoastie1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am from england to. Fine let me rephrase what have been saying. Feminism isn't responsible for this. Modern feminists are. But i tend to assosiate the members of a movement with the movement itself, as they follow (or believe they do) feminism.

Well i'd have no problem with you saying most mra's are anti-feminist. But not anti-women, as that is not the same thing, as i have said, most feminists i have met are exactly as described.

I don't understand how can feminism be for men? i mean the definition is "for women's rights" you can't have your cake and eat it to. If the definition of feminism is for women's rights, you can't claim it helps men to, because that's against the definition, and if i say feminism is something against the definition, that's wrong.

PETA does have a definition People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. It's an acronym. And it was an analogy, i know they're not exactly the same.

And in theory, yes mra's should work with feminists, it's called egalitarianism. However, most feminists i have met, don't care about male issues, in fact, most of what i see in real life, the news, and online they activley oppose it.

You can't bat away my criticisms by saying "the definition of feminism is women's rights" then say "but it can help men too" because that's not in the definition. That's just being hypocrytical.

Also being anti-feminist is not anti-female. My wife is anti-feminist, plenty MRA's are female and anti-feminist and do you want to know why? most feminists we see in day to day life, don't care about equality, they are hateful, spiteful people, who believe in female superiority, or are spoiled rich kids who think they're the most oppressed people in the world. And you can't just say "oh they're not feminist, because they don't follow the definition" for a few reasons 1)When they make all these "non-femenist" claims, no real feminists stand up to them, or tell them they're wrong, so they are left to represent the femenist movement. 2) I am a christian, i think the westbero baptist church is a horrible thing, but i don't say "they're not christian, because they don't follow my rules", i accept that they are christian too, even if they are radically different to me, and it is my responsibility as a christian, to give our religion a good name, so most people don't think they represent us. 3)definitions change, wicked used to mean horrible nasty as in "wicked witch" but then it changed to mean awesome "wicked man". Language is just a means to label things. And feminism as an orginisation, used to be about equality, but western feminism, in modern times does not mean that at all (well, the majority of active or public members don't, from mine, and a lot of other peoples experience).

If all you're going to say is "but that's not the definition", then i can't talk to you about this anymore, since we're operating from two completley different standpoints and there is little point in continueing. Let me clarify, feminism as a theory (equality for women) is a good thing it was necassery, and will be needed in the future, however in the western world, there is little need for it, and i believe it has been corrupted, and modern feminists no longer act as they should, fighting against invisible enemies like "rape culture" or the "patriarchy", treating all men like rapists, and fighting for stupid goals. Not all feminists are like that i admit, but most i interact with are, so that is what i mean when i say feminism. If you want to get a picture of what i mean Sargon of Akkad (a youtuber) did a video series called "why do people hate feminism". I know you probably don't have the same views as most of the feminists they're talking about, but it's worth a look as to why so many people, like myself, talk about feminism so negatively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua8T4nSTCWA

[–]iandmlne2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]kaihau 10 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

It's amazing how the human mind can be manipulated.

I've had sex with guys that I've regretted the day after. Was it rape? Absolutely not. I may have been a little tipsy, but I was still conscious and able to make my own choices. I had a little talk to myself, "Kiely, don't do that again", and moved on.

I know guys do this too, and just move on.

[–]Aaronf989 18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yea, i just dont get this kind of mentality. People make mistakes, its human, What you wanted a hour ago, in the heat of the moment is different post-orgasm and once your emotional state goes back to normal. To think people want to ruin other peoples lives because they felt bad about themselves afterwards its just utterly crazy. I have done sexual things with a couple girls that even going in i wasnt sure about. Did i call the police or anything? No cause thats stupid, i moved on with my life. While its a little more serious, the best way to put it is, you know how you were still a little hungry and you thought "I could finish that pizza" And after you finish it you completely regret yourself for it and feel ashamed? Yea, you move on, you dont call all your friends up and ruin the business because you made a bad move lol

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The end makes me jealous. Way to totally bypass the system.

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Their stupidity is offensive.

If they were raped, they would know it. There is no "hurr durr, 2 years later I took a gender studies course and knew I was raped that one time!" "After I talked about my consensual sex with some feminists, I realized I was raped!"

No, that's not how it works. You either agreed to have sex, or you didn't. And you later deciding you regret your decision doesn't make it rape. You fucking loons.

It's like black people whining about innocent use of "nigger". If someone didn't mean it hatefully, why are you so offended? Maybe they shouldn't say it, but if it was along with a song, don't be offended like they just whipped you.

The only way I can see being offended, is if they don't really experience actual hatred in their lives. So they don't know the difference. Just as these women don't know what real rape is, so they don't know the difference.

People need to calm down, feel less and think more.

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[+]Frankly_George 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

its treating them like children.

I fail to see the issue with this as they have not demonstrated adult-like capabilities for understanding cause and effect or acceptance of responsibility for their own actions. Why not treat them like they act?

[–]Spidertech500 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]mean0dean0 10 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Why is there even such a thing as retroactive rape? If you give consent in the moment, then consent is given. You can't give consent, clearly and without coercion, and then later say you didn't give consent. I swear, this generation of girls is literally necessitating the use of dashcam-style cameras in the bedroom to keep people from being dishonest about rape.

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[+]Toalmaster 10 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Here is the comic. The interesting thing about this is that the girl is trans and this is the first time getting naked with her new BF

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[+]wilc8650 10 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Do people really think this is a prevalent problem?

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[–]_Fallout_-4 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Here's one thing that none of the guys in this thread are getting (and I'm a guy).

Consent can be revoked. If you're having sex with a girl, and she tells you to stop, then stop. You can get formally written consent notarized by an official notary, but none of that matters if consent is revoked during the act of sex.

Now, for the particular case mentioned in the picture, this guy is getting his life really fucked over by a rule that should not be in place. Both parties said it was consensual after the sex happened. The rule should be changed.

But to pretend like this is an extremely prevalent thing is delusional. If you're just a regular guy who doesn't want to rape people, just make sure the girl is coherent and actually wants to have sex with you and you'll be completely fine. Don't be creepy and coerce her. This fear monger isn't helpful or even relevant.

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I haven't seen an anybody actually answer your question so here's the real answer. The federal government sent out a Dear Colleague letter to colleges in the US saying that part of Title IX (gender equality in education), they need to respond to rape accusations on campus or else they will lose the majority of their funding. This was later expanded upon by a White House Task Force which included a statement stating that some schools have had success by having a single person act as investigator, judge, jury, and executioner. It additionally supports denying all due process guaranteed in the Constitution.

The police can do their own investigation, but oftentimes the alleged victim will not cooperate with the police. Such instances lead to the "Mattress Case." Where a young woman did not work with police, but rather received college credit for art by carrying a mattress around campus while bullying the person she claimed raped her.

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Wiki is not a good source. Wiki is not scientific or objective, and is often biased in how it chooses to represent an issue and which edits or editors it allows in an article.

Wiki can point you to good sources, via it's own sourced statements, though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3180619/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

Here are two solid studies that can be used as sources on the issue.

The TL;DR of these studies is such, paraphased fairly by moi, is:

Untreated MtF transgender individuals have brain structure and grey matter volumes largely consistent with biological cisgender males; however, homosexual MtF transgender individuals do differ in significant and generally consistent ways, in some areas. These differences are in the direction of female standards, but still closer to male averages than female averages.

Relevant direct quotes to source that TL;DR:

We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women.

and

Overall, our study provides evidence that MTF transsexuals possess regional gray matter volumes mostly consistent with control males.

and

The Rametti team used an MRI technique called Diffusion Tensor Imaging to compare homosexual male-to-female transsexuals (n = 18) with nontranssexual, heterosexual control males (n = 19) and with nontranssexual, heterosexual control females (n = 19). They contrasted the male controls with the female controls to identify the sex-dimorphic portions of the brain and then contrasted the homosexual transsexuals with each of the control groups on the dimorphic brain regions so identified. The initial contrasts identified six sex-dimorphic brain regions. The homosexual transsexual sample was intermediate in volume on all six brain structures, significantly different from the male controls on five of the six (and significantly different from the female controls on all six).

and

Savic and Arver (2010) applied anatomical MRIs with an analogous research design, identifying the sex-dimorphic portions of the brain and contrasting the (this time) heterosexual transsexual sample (n = 24) with each control sample (n’s = 24 each) on the sex-dimorphic brain regions. Of the eight brain regions that distinguished male from female brains, the heterosexual transsexual sample differed from the male controls on none (Savic & Arver, 2010, Table 3). Of the four brain regions that distinguished these heterosexual transsexuals from the male controls, sex-dimorphism was present in none (Savic & Arver, 2010, Table 3). As Savic and Arver themselves emphasized, “Contrary to the primary hypothesis, no sex-atypical features with signs of ‘feminization’ were detected in the transsexual group….The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain” although that statement should have been restricted to refer to heterosexual male-to-female transsexuals only.

This is why I said your post was misleading at best, and didn't outright call it a lie. If the intention of your post was "transsexual brains are different", than the answer would be, 'A little bit, yes; but for heterosexual transgender people, not in any way associated with sex, and for homosexual transgender people, not enough to say they have the wrong sex brain, or a brain closer to their desired gender than their birth sex, and we don't even know why they're different, and if it's a cause of transgenderism or a result".

If you meant it as "Transgender people are just people born with the wrong gender brain!", which is something of a feel-good myth that's been around ever since transgender identities became a known mainstream thing, the answer would be no. That's a lie, as it's unfortunately nowhere near that simple.

[+]WolfeBane84 -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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If it came out of natural processes, then it is by definition natural. Some traits show up in nature because evolution is pretty random. In species like humans, a lot of stuff that doesn't have much of an impact on our ability to reproduce persists because we exist in communities that can make up for any inherited traits that are even negative. But in the case of things like being transgender, it's speculated it may be a result of hormonal imbalances in the womb that affect the development of the fetus' brain. In this case, the individual could have perfectly good genes, but the changes done by womb hormones have caused problems anatomically.

In the case of bad wiring, then yes, it would be a mental illness of sorts with a definite physiological cause. The only reason I asked for you to specify what you meant by it is that typically when people use the term 'mental illness', they use it as a way to dismiss the human that has the illness. For example, telling people with depression to "just cheer up!" when they very well could have a chemical imbalance that could be resolved with pills.

[–]Woozer 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]overtmind 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If it's in the DSM, there's no 'of sorts' about it. It's a de jure definition.

[–]greeklemoncake 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]thebornotaku 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it goes deeper than that.

Who you're attracted to is your sexuality. The gender you are (or want to be, or feel like you are) is your gender identity. The two are not necessarily related.

You could feel like a straight woman trapped in a man's body. You could also feel like a lesbian trapped in a man's body. You could be a gay man trapped in a woman's body. You could also be a straight man trapped in a woman's body. You could be bisexual trapped either way.

For instance, I know two people who are trans. The first is a pre-op transgender, currently male, who is attracted to women. But feels like he is a woman himself. And before anybody bitches at me about "pronouns", I've asked.

The second is a man who felt trapped in a woman's body. He has already done quite a bit of hormone therapy as well as a double mastectomy. He is also bisexual (perhaps pansexual, I can't remember which term he uses) and tends to have more relationships with other men than he does with women, at least from what I've seen.

I understand it can be hard to comprehend and I 100% thought the same way you did before I got to know and talk with these people. It's kind of an interesting and misunderstood subject though.

I hope this helps.

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I don't know how I ended up here, but this is wonderful. I'm a female, I've been assaulted various times, raped/coerced/threatened various times, and I fucking hate this shit.

If someone is drunk and says yes, just don't do it. That is rape along the same lines as having sex with someone mentally disabled or underage is rape.

But if someone is fully aware and says yes-without being coerced, threatened, or guilted by someone else- it's a mistake, not rape.

I lost my virginity due to a mistake I consented to, by a male who later raped me. The first time was a mistake- a huge one- by me. That will never change. Things got weird and an assault took place the same night- but the sex part- I wanted to at the time. It was my own mistake. These people who falsely claim rape undermine all people who have ever been raped.

Yes, do look for enthusiastic "yes" and no, do not coerce or pester anyone (woman this goes for you also), yes, pay attention to your partner and what they say during. But no, if they say yes with no pressure, it is not rape.

[–]InternetSafety101 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Demonicpoodle 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

...... I'm starting to agree.

I realize that although I get pangs of loneliness while I'm single, I'm... happy. I'm content. I'm strong enough to be happy with myself and enjoy my own company very much. I hang out with friends, go to bars, play games, work, have a fun time at work with my coworkers.

The absolute insane risk that women are, on TOP of the financial burden they' expect you to undertake, is just seeming less and less and less enticing. And the fact that the courts automatically assume you're guilty as a male...

Just why bother? I'm either turning gay since most gay men dodge all this bullshit, or I'm staying single.

Any time I decide to casually fuck a girl, I am at the very least giving her a fake name and never letting her see my ID. That's at the least. At most, I'll have a hidden camera because it just seems necessary to now. I'd rather be arrested for "illegal recording" than some psycho later deciding I raped her when it was consensual.

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Fair Use is a bit more complex than just parody (which this is not).

The four-point test is:

Is the use transformative?

In this case, the meaning and character of the work was substantially altered. It would probably pass this point.

Nature of the work:

Here, the author controlled the "first public appearance of the work". This point is probably upheld here as well.

Amount & substantiality of the portion taken:

This is the trickiest part. The art from that strip was essentially wholly used, although out of order and without the dialogue. This is the trickiest point for non-parody use, and the use here may not pass this point.

Effect of use on the potential market:

Negligible.

So, 3/4 of the test points seem to be passed without issue. The fourth is arguable given that the intention and character of the use are not notably harmful to the author or work, and would only really be an issue if Jeph decided to take issue with this particular work. It is certainly not egregious enough to be worried about unless the author himself were to find this usage problematic.

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Ah, Questionable Content. A comic strip that started off as pretentious hipster indie music elitism, and then went straight down the SJW rabbit hole. I stopped reading it when they introduced a trans girl as the main character's girlfriend and established that he was like totally cool with her being trans and that didn't affect things in any way all in the space of a single 6 panel comic.

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There is no way to really avoid that unfortunately. It is the society we live in. You pretty much have to let the court of public opinion decide what you are and what you did, then try to clear your name in civil court by suing the person who alleged the false rape allegations.

The ONLY way to prevent the court of public opinion would be through state public records law changes. It would have to be done at a state level since the Freedom of Information Act (the only federal law about disclosure of public records) only applies to federal agencies, not local police which would be the ones handling the investigation. If the campus has private police, well, that company can pretty much do whatever they want in regards to what information they choose to make public. I believe campus police fall under state jurisdiction when it pertains to public records disclosure.

That means each state would have to amend the public records disclosure laws to exclude rape victims and rape suspects information from the public records. I count the odds of that happening anytime soon at about even with the odds of me finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. It would be practically political suicide for a politician to suggest such an amendment, much less for an entire state legislator pass the law.

TL;DR: Court of Public Opinion sucks but there is really not much you can do about it other than let it happen and go through civil processes to get monetary compensation.

Edit: Clarification

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[+]mymonster8u 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Seriously? That's the dumbest cartoon I've ever seen. This down plays rape and violence. My husband almost beat me to death I called the police because I was being held at knife point and I couldn't believe how many shitty lawyers and family members and coworkers ran to his aide to fucking help him and bail him out. You know what he did when he got bailed out? Started sending me death threats. Real fucking cute. Ya... protect yourself from rape accusations what a shameful joke.

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Title	[X-Post from /r/tinder] Every Guy Needs To See This...
Author	misc412
Upvotes	3706
Comments	522
Date	October 17, 2015 3:30 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3p2ntc/xpost_from_rtinder_every_guy_needs_to_see_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/x-post-from-rtinder-every-guy-needs-to-see-this.969244 https://theredarchive.com/post/969244

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