One question in the mandatory sexual misconduct quiz for all students at the University of Oklahoma.

Jesus_marley · 2014-12-12T17:07:47+00:00

"very flirtatious and making suggestive comments"....

"has not indicated a wish to engage in the act of sex"...

So which is it? When someone suggests to me that we should have sex, that is a pretty clear cut indication of consent especially when there is no effort to withdraw the suggestion. She was the initiator here.

tembaarmswide · 2014-12-12T15:28:09+00:00

So the fact that the male was intoxicated has no bearing huh

Gstreetshit · 2014-12-12T16:59:18+00:00

If women are so incompetent as to not be held accountable for their actions while drinking like they would have you believe, shouldn't it just be illegal for them to drink?

TheTwisted509 · 2014-12-12T16:54:48+00:00

"Mary is very Flirtatious with John and is making suggestive comments to him such that he think she is interested in an intimate relationship that evening" and "She has not indicated she wishes to engage in the act" are contradictory statements.

This is why "yes means yes" and VAWA are such bullshit. Women aren't responsible for their own behavior, and men pay the price.

pizzaISpizza · 2014-12-12T16:25:57+00:00

Is this a potential [Emphasis Added] violation of policy?

Good grief! Anything is a potential violation of policy.

SamHarrisFan · 2014-12-12T16:19:03+00:00

"check your understanding"

I smell a feminist.

smokeybehr · 2014-12-12T18:01:50+00:00

"Cannot answer with information provided"

Vietnom · 2014-12-12T19:18:35+00:00

This is thinly-veiled paternalism, and you would think that feminists would therefore be opposed to policies like it. It's removing female responsibility for her own actions, and places it on the male, as if she isn't equipped to make her own decisions.

Policies like this is why many believe that feminism is not about equality, but about domination.

SirElliott · 2014-12-12T17:43:12+00:00

I'm a freshman at the University of Oklahoma. I was disgusted when I took this assessment. Also, in every case of rape, the guy was the culprit. The only question where a girl was the violator was where she was stalking a guy. Apparently only guys can rape, and it's still rape if both people are silent and intoxicated.

Sasha_ · 2014-12-12T18:23:09+00:00

Hmm...so a drunk man is responsible for his actions, but a drunk woman isn't? How DO women expect men to take them seriously when they persist on being treated like children?

McFeely_Smackup · 2014-12-12T19:53:23+00:00

Here's a scenario to consider:

Mary goes to the bar with friends and has 5 drinks, she is tipsy and slurring her words. She leaves without paying her bill, gets into her car and drives to John's house who is in her class.

On the way she hits a parked car without stopping. A police officer sees this and attempts to pull her over, but she accelerates away and escapes after running over an elderly man in a crosswalk.

Upon arrival at Johns house, she finds an unlocked window, and climbs through, finds John sleeping in his bed and climbs on top of him, initiating sex before he is fully awake.

In the above scenario, Mary committed 1 misdemeanor, 5 felonies, and was then raped.

We expect 100% accountability for our actions while intoxicated, unless it's a woman consenting to sex. Then suddenly we can't hold her responsible because it was impossible for her to know what she was doing.

cuppycake_gumdrops · 2014-12-12T16:53:45+00:00

Why are grown adults accepting this infantalizing intrusion of institutional power into their bedrooms? To hell with whether this was a "policy violation" -- this is not a thing to make policy about in the first place! This is none of anyone's goddamn business but the people involved! The minute we get the Christian church out of the bedroom, the Feminist church sticks their foot between door and jamb and shoves their way in to dutifully fill the void. Fucking hell.

Archammes · 2014-12-12T18:10:50+00:00

Mary is very flirtatious with John and is making suggestive comments to him

She has not indicated she wishes to engage in the act

Thanks for making that crystal fucking clear OU.

DavidByron2 · 2014-12-12T17:20:54+00:00

Make a sexual harassment complaint against the university on the basis of this sexist anti-male environment. Sexual harassment doesn't require a sexual aspect, only a sex discriminatory aspect (that's what the "sexual" in sexual harassment refers to). The university is showing itself as a hostile environment for a man because of its sexism and that is putting your right to an equal education in jeopardy. Make a sexual harassment complaint. They have to take it seriously and by law they aren't allowed to retaliate against you for making the complaint.

ImGoingToTroll · 2014-12-12T16:49:02+00:00

Sooo.... My ex was "Silent and Passive" the entire relationship does that mean since she sucked in bed it was also rape ?

Edit: Disregard the account name, I'm actually being serious.

scanspeak · 2014-12-12T19:28:54+00:00

Now you know where bogus 1-in-4 stats come from.

ChaosOpen · 2014-12-12T16:54:55+00:00

Wouldn't Mary also be guilty? As John was also drunk.

Maikowski · 2014-12-12T16:30:43+00:00

Women has no responsibility over their action.

grapherson · 2014-12-12T18:52:07+00:00

I had to take rape 101 too to enroll for the next semester at osu and the only thing I learned is techniques to increase my odds at doing what they tried to prevent. That and only men rape and commit sexual harassment. Its funny the SJWs make us take this shit. I remember an article from a month or two ago where a Forbes writer warned fratboys not to sleep with drunk girls and then got fired for it. Now his message is mandatory to stay in college. At least for me. Is this a national thing?

parkowork · 2014-12-12T17:42:03+00:00

If only John wasn't such an active partner in bed...

Got it gents? Want to avoid trouble, just be sexually passive, and all will be well.

Hermanoid · 2014-12-12T19:54:25+00:00

So "consent can be withdrawn at any time." Fair enough. At what time in this story was Mary's consent withdrawn, and how was that indicated to John?

qp0n · 2014-12-12T20:58:16+00:00

Know why this makes me angry?

This is why this makes me angry.

Would be nice if women could stop wanting everything & none of the consequences.

Maslo59 · 2014-12-12T17:50:55+00:00

I dont think slurred speech and off-balance walking is enough to indicate sufficient mental incapacitation to invalidate consent. I was drunk enough to exhibit both many times, and yet I remembered everything and thought reasonably clearly.

No coherent speech and not capable of walking is a better indicator.

b_sinning · 2014-12-12T18:21:56+00:00

It's a trap!

Zosimasie · 2014-12-12T18:38:58+00:00

So, right now, I've just had 5 drinks in the last hour. I'm tipsy, but I am still a fully responsible adult. I'm less nimble, and a little less careful in my speech. That's just what happens after 5 drinks. But guess what!? You're still responsible for yourself and your actions after 5 fucking drinks! Being tipsy is not rape. Fuck you! AaaaAaaaAAaAArrrrrgghhhghghgh!

Crushgaunt · 2014-12-12T20:15:29+00:00

I see that other people had to deal with this blatantly sexist bullshit.

Example 1 (The *correct* answer is the middle one)

Example 2

sweathead · 2014-12-12T19:17:02+00:00

Without reading all the comments and just reading the question and answer once:

The answer does not match the question, and the question was poorly written. Yes it is a potential violation. But if you answer yes, the explanation includes the assumption that it is a violation, not a potential one. The answer is also written to push a biased viewpoint. The question also states something about John being tipsy too, which suggests Mary was tipsy, not drunk. This is contradictory information and possibly a sloppy attempt to trip people up.

There is no clarity in the question and no consistency with the question in the answer. Question writer fail.

vanitysmurf · 2014-12-12T20:43:21+00:00

I'm so glad I went to university in the 90s, when we were allowed to get drunk and fool around, without having to talk to lawyers first. I'm not implying that date-rape isn't a huge problem, but it seems like we're in the midst of a massive over-reaction. Also unless things have changed a lot in recent years, there's no such thing as "rape culture". Quite the opposite in fact. Rape is almost universally seen as unmanly (which it is).

crazymusicman · 2014-12-12T22:23:23+00:00

notice how the sex act was done by the man to the woman.

the3rdoption · 2014-12-12T17:59:01+00:00

OK. Ya know what? For the sake of being a hostile asshole, I'll play by those rules. No sex unless I get express consent. But if we head back to my place, with the understanding that it's for sex, and she isn't capable of expressing consent, or changes her mind, it's time to get the fuck out. It's my responsibility to not rape. It's not my responsibility to babysit an adult. And, considering the current state of things, I strongly advise that policy to all the college boys. That seems to be the source of a lot of the bullshit stories.

BinaryMn · 2014-12-12T18:17:12+00:00

That explanation is absolutely bullshit. I really don't know what prompted this "consenting people must verbally express it" mindset, but it is being pushed to falsely suggest (and sometimes punish) decent people are some sort of sexual deviants.

I'd like to think that the average human being isn't so socially retarded that they can't tell when someone doesn't want to have sex. Actions are directly indicative of whether someone wants to have sex or not. It doesn't need to be verbally declared.

However, all of that said, the scenario that was described was a little sketchy. If I was taking home a girl who had five drinks and couldn't walk right, taking her clothes off just because she was "passive" but otherwise uninterested is a bit creepy. I'd hope most men have the common sense to realize this.

robak69 · 2014-12-12T23:37:45+00:00

like it or not:

this is not just oklahoma u policy, this is also how it works in the criminal law as well. you can be absolutely be charged and convicted of rape under those circumstances. and that is much worse than getting kicked out of school.

PerniciousOne · 2014-12-13T00:31:26+00:00

Mary and John are both students in the same class and live in the same town. They go out for drinks one evening. John drinks 5 alcoholic drinks and is slurring his speech and is off-balance when he walks. John is very flirtatious with Mary and is making suggestive coments to her such that she thinks he is interested in an intimate relationship that evening. Mary is tipsy too and takes him to her apartment. She undresses him and has intercourse with him. He has not indicated he wishes to engage in the act, but does not put up a fight or say "no," and he remained conscious, but passive throughout the incident.

Is this a potential policy violation?

When the genders are reversed is this not seen as as a violation?

duganaok · 2014-12-13T06:17:35+00:00

Not only is this completely biased, it shows they have absolutely no idea what sexual assault actually is.

adamsfan42 · 2014-12-12T13:39:02+00:00

sorry i know a screen shot would have been better, but i wasn't thinking.

Miskatonic72 · 2014-12-12T17:06:42+00:00

The answer to the question poses something interesting; 82% percent of those who engaged in non-consensual sexual intercourse were under the influence of alcohol or drugs. If that's the case, then why aren't they looking to ban the use of those for anyone who is enrolled at the university? Problem solved!

Obviously it is not as simple as that, but if they're truly concerned about their students and their well being, they should be looking for root causes and solving for those in order to reduce the potential issue(s).

adamsfan42 · 2014-12-12T17:29:41+00:00

for anyone interested in making a complaint to the university: http://www.ou.edu/eoo.html

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2014-12-12T22:31:48+00:00

John was drunk. John never explicitly stated he was consenting. Mary raped him.

Atheist101 · 2014-12-12T18:04:06+00:00

Just assume all sex is rape and get a 100% on that bullshit and move on with your life

differentiallity · 2014-12-12T18:33:22+00:00

Same at my Uni

Vietnom · 2014-12-12T18:52:41+00:00

Yeah, so the woman's intoxication excuses her behavior but the man's does not.

paracog · 2014-12-12T19:20:25+00:00

Once enough lawsuits start draining the coffers of universities for false rape cases, I imagine this will get tempered a lot.

2014-12-12T19:32:09+00:00

"john is tipsy too..." How much is "too"? and equal amount of tipsy? why are we not told if john said yes or no to mary? if they're equally intoxicated, and neither party said no, then they both violated the policy.

TheObelisk · 2014-12-12T21:43:31+00:00

Sheesh, so it's at the point where if you're a guy in college, you should just avoid women. You could be sent off to jail by any one of these girls who regrets touching you. And they even have these rules to make it easy for them.

Ded0099 · 2014-12-13T00:31:27+00:00

This was the same question, and answer on my school's test as well.

hajamieli · 2014-12-13T05:19:33+00:00

Yeah, just like being incapacitated by being drunk is a good excuse for drunk driving as well.

pneurbies · 2014-12-12T22:02:34+00:00

Please correct me if I'm wrong: if you are "Incapacitated" after 5 cocktails, you are 5 pound kitty cat, and not a college student. If you are unable to awaken after 5 drinks, you should be forced to wear a bracelet that says: "I am a 5 pound kitty cat. Do not feed me alcohol."

dickholedoug · 2014-12-12T21:05:15+00:00

What a load of shit. It's called implied consent. The logical way would be the exact opposite, where they have to voice no, but no that would hurt their feelings too much. What about actions speaking louder than words? God this is stupid

Elvick · 2014-12-12T21:29:34+00:00

"consent may be withdrawn at any time"

Yeah, but you have to... I don't know, do something to indicate that shift in consent. You can't just sit there and wish it away. That's not actually withdrawing consent.

As far as the alcohol is concerned... I like how they are super specific about the female. Yet, vague about the male.

What defines tipsy? Is it slurring speech and stumbling a bit? What defines "incapacitated"? Because to me, that means you can't stand on your own and you can only mumble and are on the verge of passing out and are clearly in a blacked out state where you won't remember what's happening tomorrow.

I also don't see how you can say it's not a defense. If women can use it as a weapon, how can it not be a defense as well? Either being drunk matters to your decision making skills, or it doesn't.

Mach712 · 2014-12-13T04:37:10+00:00

The important things to consider in this situation:

It is somewhat unclear, but it seems that he is only tipsy, whereas she is drunk to the point where she is slurring her speech and lacks motor control. This means that her cognitive abilities are significantly more impaired than his are. This is an imbalance in current decision-making capabilities and awareness.
She never indicates that she wants to have sex. Flirting does not necessarily mean that you want to have sex, and the description specifically she never indicated (directly or otherwise) that she wanted to have sex. You should not assume what someone wants.
She was passive throughout the entirety of the sexual activity. He undressed her. He had sex with her. It is not directly stated, but is implied, that she was not participating.

Whether they are drunk or not, if someone hasn't indicated that they want to have sex and is not an active participant- simply lays there passively while you do things to them- why would you even want to have sex with them? Even if you don't think that this qualifies as rape, why would you even attempt to have sex with someone who is incapacitated and who is not reciprocating or enjoying themselves? Yes, they got drunk and flirted, but they didn't initiate or actively participate in the sex. Yes, people are not blameless for things they do while drunk, but in this situation he is in a better mental state than she is, and he is making the choice to initiate and perform the sexual behaviors on a passive person. Gender does not matter, you should always make sure a potential partner is able to consent, and then get that consent.

I_fight_demons · 2014-12-12T15:41:32+00:00

I'm totally comfortable with this (well, other than the patronizing nature of mandatory sexual misconduct quizzes, and the requisite male-predator female-victim).

They make it a very clean example and mention that it is a 'potential' violation. Clearly there is a lot of nuance in 'how drunk is too drunk?' and 'how is consent expressed?' and pointing out this kind of situation as a potential violation and problem area is ok with me.

keystothemoon · 2014-12-12T22:55:11+00:00

So if John raped Mary in this situation, doesn't that mean that Mary also raped John? After all, he was tipsy. He did not say that he wanted sex. They raped each other!

BreezyD · 2014-12-12T23:14:51+00:00

My research methods professor would shit if he could see that survey question. It has like every textbook error in it.

DizzyGravy · 2014-12-13T01:29:39+00:00

He undressed her. I think that's the critical detail.

bpj1805 · 2014-12-13T03:04:23+00:00

You guys are circlejerking hard again.

With her enthusiastic flirting, Mary was consenting to something, but we don't know what that is. We can't mindread. Being "very flirtatious ... and making suggestive comments" might just mean she wanted to make out or something; it doesn't automatically mean she wanted to bone.

Also, it's quite reasonable IMHO to believe both that this wasn't rape (if you believe that "being drunk" (but still able to be flirtatious / make suggestive comments) does not extinguish sexual agency), and that it was a "policy violation" (something the university discourages because it causes drama they'd really rather not have to deal with).

TheRealMouseRat · 2014-12-12T16:37:36+00:00

The difficulty of the question is that they don't explain in more detail the actions of the persons when they got to the potential sexual part. The last part is very poorly described in how the people behave, the only thing we know about the woman's way of being is that she is passive. In other words, from this one can draw the conclusion that after they got to John's apartment Mary was literally spaced out the entire time. In other words, she is basically black out drunk but just hasn't become unconscious yet. So she clearly didn't consent.

angryeti · 2014-12-12T19:23:34+00:00

I think the key word here is potential

Vandredd · 2014-12-12T22:31:44+00:00

Incapacitated has a new meaning. Good to know.

a_posh_trophy · 2014-12-12T23:37:41+00:00

If neither refuses, how is that classified as rape?

Atkailash · 2014-12-13T00:09:05+00:00

This pisses me off so much. Her intoxication is sufficient reason to claim lack of consent, but his intoxication means nothing and, if anything, implies he's being more devious than normal.

thedoze · 2014-12-13T03:12:25+00:00

so if the situation was reverse and John was nearly passed out from drinking and Mary was tipsy, he would be charged with rape/policy-violation, from what im reading there.

Dakrys · 2014-12-13T03:57:06+00:00

Can we talk about that bit of, "consent can be withdrawn at any time"?

If you're all up on me and you're trying to bone, so we leave and then bone, nothing is missed here.

We're not talking about a woman who is so intoxicated that she cannot speak. We're talking about a woman who doesn't communicate in any way that consent has been withdrawn.

Communication is necessary in situations like this. 99.999% of males would immediately cease any and all sexual contact if there was any sign that the woman didn't want it.

Implied consent is one thing that's kind of arguable. Most of the time in real world sexual encounters there aren't clear signs of consent, but I can see a case for "just because she didn't say no" being creepy and rapey. This is another thing entirely.

The right for a woman to withdraw consent at any time is ridiculous. You could be in mid-bone and she decides that she doesn't want to have sex anymore but doesn't say anything about it. So it's suddenly a rape, even if there is no communication on the matter?

The formula is simple. Women are special, men are primitive, and men should fear castration if a woman ever allows them access to her genitals.

When are feminists going to realize that a government primarily dominated by men doesn't mean they're using their power for men? Gynocentric views are sexist. "You need all this help and support because your genitals indicate that you're delicate and we(mostly male gov't) want to be the ones to help you through it."

ahmed_iAm · 2014-12-13T04:10:27+00:00

I remember getting is wrong. Everyone kind stared at me.

keeb119 · 2014-12-13T04:35:51+00:00

So if John and Mary went back to Mary's place, and on the way there John is making comments about how he wants to ride her doggy style, and then when they get there he changes his mind but doesn't say anything or do anything to show he's withdrawn concent. Mary proceeds to blow him down right when they get in the door and then she rides him cowgirl all night. If John had withdrawn concent at any time would that be rape?

No, John has a penis therefore only the penetrator Can be charged with rape not the penetratee.

cajunrevenge · 2014-12-14T08:10:15+00:00

So just to be on the safe side I think you should have the girl remove any articles of clothing, yours and hers. Also start with her on top. Pretty sure once she rides it they can't call or rape.....

One of these days we will need a hand written letter of consent notorized before we can touch a female.

2014-12-14T19:46:49+00:00

A similar quiz was given at SUNY Purchase to all incoming freshmen. It was mostly about intoxication, but once segment had to do with sexual misconduct.

thelazyking · 2014-12-12T21:42:57+00:00

As a student that attends this University I'd like to point out that this quiz is based solely off of a yes means yes approach to sexual conduct at the University. It has nothing to do with drinking or any other thing in the story, it just wants to know if both parties said yes.

llamallever · 2014-12-14T22:11:27+00:00

This is actually totally valid. In OK you can't give consent under the influence. What's fucked is that the same situation with switched genders would not get prosecuted

scanspeak · 2014-12-12T19:33:42+00:00

Is the guy's real name Bill Cosby?

co_radio · 2014-12-12T23:14:22+00:00

Why wouldn't Mary also be guilty of rape? Why can consent be withdrawn years later?

Stephen1985 · 2014-12-13T01:20:39+00:00

Heres the kicker: THEY ARE BOTH RAPISTS THEN!!!!!!!!

avantvernacular · 2014-12-12T17:53:12+00:00

They said "potential."

zombiepatrick · 2014-12-12T19:41:26+00:00

what the fack

wilson_at_work · 2014-12-12T20:53:09+00:00

The fuck is this shit

srnx · 2014-12-12T21:32:46+00:00

LMAO fuck off...

modern_rabbit · 2014-12-12T23:02:33+00:00

Is it a potential policy violation? Probably. Should it be?

nobody2000 · 2014-12-13T00:51:35+00:00

While the subtext of this quiz angers me:

It suggests that only women can be raped
Intoxicated men = capable of accountability, Intoxicated women = innocent princess
It was formed because of a fictitious sexual assault epidemic

...It's still useful. While we'd like to see change eventually to provide accountability for shitty actions by women, face it - it's not happening today. For now, men have to get by in a shitty system that's constantly out to get us.

Change will be incremental, and slow, unfortunately.

How do we get by? By informing ourselves on how not to find ourselves on the wrong side of a courtroom or university tribunal. Quizzes like these, policy expectations spelled out clearly help us avoid committing otherwise benign actions that would put us in danger of losing our enrollment in school or in danger of losing our freedom by being jailed or put on a registry.

Legionofmarduk · 2014-12-12T19:01:52+00:00

the u.s. deserve to die

ChicagoRunner · 2014-12-12T16:26:17+00:00

The question clearly establishes that the girl was drunk. Guys, dont fuck drunk girls without consent. John was tipsy, but he was not drunk. Big fucking difference. Why is it "men's rights" to be upset about not being able to fuck drunk girls who are more intoxicated than you and didn't consent? Jesus fucking christ

ThePigmanAgain · 2014-12-12T21:17:53+00:00

"an intimate relationship that evening." As "relationships" go that would be a very short one. Dumbass Amerikan colleges.

And if he is "tipsy" too, doesn't that make them both rapists? That's the worry, that her intoxication means something, his is irrelevant.

iMADEthis2post · 2014-12-12T23:47:46+00:00

A very dangerous definition of rape. I feel this is an example of the ultra rightwing traditionalists merging with feminism, one of the examples I use to point out the patriarchal aspects of modern feminism.

JosephBarryLee · 2014-12-13T01:12:17+00:00

holy shit fucky that's insane what the fuck is wrong with American Universities

LearnToScreenShootMF · 2014-12-12T18:13:16+00:00

Learn it MotherFucker...

Title	One question in the mandatory sexual misconduct quiz for all students at the University of Oklahoma.
Author	adamsfan42
Upvotes	601
Comments	387
Date	December 12, 2014 1:37 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2p2sit/one_question_in_the_mandatory_sexual_misconduct/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/one-question-in-the-mandatory-sexual-misconduct.992195 https://theredarchive.com/post/992195

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