Gun Violence and School Shootings Mega-Thread

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[–]Professional_Entry721 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m sorry but are people really this stupid? Just take the whole 2nd amendment away? It’s scary that people put so much trust in our government, other countries, even home invaders that’s the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment! You may not be 100% on board with guns but maybe that single mother with her 2 little kids rely on that pistol she Carrie’s in her purse when she and her kids go to the store or sitting at home when it’s late. Who knows what would happen if they took the 2nd amendment away. It’s be very hard to do for one thing but if anything ever happens to our country an we get invaded by another country you can’t rely on the government to be there for you. You’d have to protect yourself in case of something like that. Red necks are just a slim part of the American gun owners

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Professional_Entry721 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m sorry but are people really this stupid? Just take the whole 2nd amendment away? It’s scary that people put so much trust in our government, other countries, even home invaders that’s the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment! You may not be 100% on board with guns but maybe that single mother with her 2 little kids rely on that pistol she Carrie’s in her purse when she and her kids go to the store or sitting at home when it’s late. Who knows what would happen if they took the 2nd amendment away. It’s be very hard to do for one thing but if anything ever happens to our country an we get invaded by another country you can’t rely on the government to be there for you. You’d have to protect yourself in case of something like that. Red necks are just a slim part of the American gun owners

[–]techr0nin2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Teflon081911 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Depends on your environment. If you're worried about over-penetration (you live in apartments for example), then stay away from AR15s. You can't go wrong with a 9mm handgun that you're well-practiced with. A shotgun can work for holding your position but it's no good for clearing rooms in tight quarters. Same with the AR15. You can get an SBR (short barrel rifle) to make it better in close quarters by virtue of having a shorter barrel length, but you need a tax stamp for it, which comes with a 6+ month waiting period, having your fingerprints recorded with the ATF, and setting up a trust if you want to do it right. If you go that route, may as well apply for a silencer as well, since firing an AR15 indoors without ear protection is perhaps the fastest way a person can experience permanent hearing loss.

If you're just looking for a minimalist setup, get a handgun, get extended magazines for it (15+ rounds), and get a lot of practice in. If you're looking for a CC weapon, or one that your wife could handle easily, pick up a Glock 43x. Amazing little gun that despite its size can carry 15 rounds with an aftermarket magazine.

Pistol caliber carbines are probably the best home defense weapon, but it's looking like those will be classified as SBRs soon with the stance the ATF has taken on pistol braces.

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[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So over six years, they only killed 50 people….

That is nothing.

https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism

Islamist extremists kill 21,000 per year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

Police kill about a 1000 people per year.

…42 people die annually because of toilets for crying out loud.

I could go on and on.

But 50 in 6 years is nothing in a world where 1000s upon 1000s die monthly.

And calling them a terrorist threat is just a way to hate sexually unsuccessful men, raw bigotry. We called Black civil rights movements terroists all the time.

There “ideology” is based on coping that they cannot get a girl and wanting a place to vent. That is it.

Pathetic? Sure. But terroists? No.

They do not have even make up a significant minority of mass shooters….

[–]ClaraBow011 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]The_Meep_Lord1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry, I meant over 50 in the US and Canada alone.

Over six years…aka basically zero when compared to ANYTHING else that kills people.

If we brought in deaths caused by beliefs that incels promote, the number goes way up.

Like what? Dishonestly including Nazis or some be to try and make your argument sound better?

Virgin men aren’t a threat.

“Virgin men who accept being losers with a smile on there face without complaining are not a threat. Those that do are all violent terrorists.”

The incel community is characterized by violent misogyny.

No, that is just what you wish it was. Only a minor part of incels is actually that.

The vast majority of it is just bitching how women chase Chad to cope about there own lack of success and self-pity.

All this talk about “x is filled with threats of violence or whatever, but nobody ever posts proof” is getting pretty damn old.

You are using the same arguing style all bigots use.

Claim all x is evil based on a few.

The only difference is severity, the pure raw hated is at the same level.

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What I’ve discovered is that even mentioning gun control

The USA already has gun control.

or better background checks and processes

Refer back to my list of preventable mass shootings where laws werent enforced. Background checks dont mean shit if you’re not giving people records.

not outright banning guns

That’s the end goal. This has become even more obvious now that Canada is trying to ban handgun.

met with the type of resistance as if you suggested personally raiding people’s homes and stealing their shit.

Because it’s obvious it’s going to lead to that point.

Pro-gun people on Reddit are too fucking extreme, and seem to think having something like a stricter processes around guns is akin to kidnapping their children.

Most gun crimes are done by criminals who already know how to get guns illegally.

I have spoken to no pro gun control people who “don’t believe in self-defense”.

Ask them if they thought Kyle Rittenhouse should’ve gone to jail. If the answer is yes, they dont believe in self defense. There are people who still think Kyle should have went to jail.

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[–]Aviadcool1111 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Dude, I am a huge class realist, care about it more than race and gender combined. But it feels like if I want to do anything about it I have to face the people in power, backstabbing feminists who are tools of the wealthy, and the constant race relation issue that is flamed once every couple of years. I would rather just stick to myself and work up to UMC and retire with a couple of mil from my Roth IRA no need to put in the effort when everyone would backstab me if I try to shake the boat, I don't even explain the issue to people anymore since they will just look at you strangely. Most people don't understand how having banks loan out the money we store in them and they profit off of it by giving us less than 1% interest is bullshit, I could go on about how capital gains are better than income, how politicians blatantly inside trade which if I did the same would land me in jail. I'll say this I don't believe that for the U.S. at least the laws of this country are fairly applied and the only reason I follow most is the threat of violence by the state. Like the system is so stacked at this point and people are too divided to actually make any real change it is better to just work on what is best for oneself.

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While I agree, I do not see how the right offers a better way. The right offer to go back to the traditional days yet fails to see our economy is nothing like the traditional days. Where one income is not enough to sustain a family. There is a reason most younger generations are living with their parents for a longer duration in comparison to any other. Because the standard of living is going up in all metrics. It's made the provider role dead for the average man. Not only because it's harder to do but also because young women are out-earning men. The way men got married was by showing the father he was capable of taking care of his daughter. They did this at a young age which resulted in marrying young. Men of this day in age take longer to become financially stable therefore cannot do this nor meet any criteria of the classic 'traditional man;

[–]FenaPugi1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men of this day in age take longer to become financially stable therefore cannot do this nor meet any criteria of the classic 'traditional man

'Hustler' Cultists and Sociopaths are the 'financially stable' men these days.

They're also setting the bar extremely low for obvious reasons.

Their hustling will also burn them out and the sociopaths have no care in the world for men other than himself to have career progression which would allow for equality/ equity.

Stem guys and tradies are the exception but that usually begets a form of nepotism.

Practically any guy that's financially stable and isn't a hustler or a sociopath can have their circumstances chalked up to nepotism.

It's funny, we've deemed all men to be dangerous but we still reward men for being dangerous so long as it's socially-accepted and when applied to certain socioeconomic conditions which exclude men who don't pander to sociopathy and psychopathy for career/ life progression.

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Those countries allow people to possess firearms but closely regulate where and when they can be carried, transported, and used.

Some Swiss firearm regulations:

Carrying guns

To carry a firearm in public or outdoors (and for a militia member to carry a firearm other than his issued weapons while off-duty), a person must have a gun carrying permit (German: Waffentragbewilligung, French: permis de port d'armes, Italian: permesso di porto di armi; art. 27 WG/LArm), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.[7] It is, however, quite common to see a person in military service or a sport shooter to be en route with his rifle, albeit unloaded. The issue of such exceptional permits are extremely selective (see #Conditions_for_obtaining_a_Carrying_Permit).However, it is permissible to carry firearms in public or outdoors if the holder (art. 27 § 4 WG/LArm):Has a valid hunting license and is carrying the firearm for hunting.Is participating in a demonstration and is carrying the firearm in reference to a historical event.Is participating in a shooting competition for air-soft guns, provided that the competition has a secure perimeter.Is an airport security officer for an authorized country, a border patrol officer, or a game warden, who is carrying the firearm in the course of their employment.Furthermore, any licensed holder of a gun may transport an unloaded firearm for special situations (see #Transporting guns).

Conditions for obtaining a Carrying Permit

There are three conditions (art. 27 § 2 WG/LArm):fulfilling the conditions for a buying permit (see section above).stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger.passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon.The carrying permit remains valid for a term of five years (unless otherwise surrendered or revoked), and applies only to the type of firearm for which the permit was issued. Additional constraints may be invoked to modify any specific permit. (art. 27 § 3 WG/LArm).However, a person who wants to renew his or her firearms license does not need to retake the practical test if the test was passed less than three years ago. They do not need to retake the theory test on the same condition, provided that the legal provisions have not been significantly changed and that there is no doubt that they have sufficient knowledge of the legal conditions for using a weapon. (art. 48 § 4 WV/OArm)

Transporting guns

Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply (art. 28 WG/LArm):The gun must be unloaded and transported separately from any ammunition, with no ammunition being transported in a magazine.The transport must be by a reasonable route and requires a valid purpose:To or from courses or exercises in marksmanship, hunting or for military purposes.To or from an army warehouse.To show the gun to a possible buyer.To or from a holder of a valid arms trade permit.To or from a specific event, e.g. gun shows.During change of residence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms\_regulation\_in\_Switzerland

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[–]Raven-Ray1 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (22 children) | Copy Link

Guns need to be heavily restricted. AND all these (usually white) men/boys have learned/inherited entitlement and hate. That’s why they kill people based on their emotions. Never see the CRAZIEST hood niggas shoot up Schools nor do you see teenage girl going and shooting up a school after she’s assaulted by a guy at a party and everyone just lets it happens or doesn’t believe her.

There’s a pattern recognize it.

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]smallstarseeker1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Can you guess which race committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008, and forms just 6% of US population?

Let me help you, it's not those evil white guys.

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Raven-Ray1 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Lmao no. Check your statistics you’re sounding like Facebook republican meme. Probably where you got that from anyways.

[–]smallstarseeker1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

How about a link straight from factcheck?

I feel offended because you called white boys bad, and I expect an appology for you being so racist.

[–]Raven-Ray1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Clearly you didn’t read my message very well. And you did not even say anything to cmv just replying in an off topic defensive manner. Maybe don’t be so eager to be the victim.

[–]smallstarseeker1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

No, no, no. Since I am from Croatia and we never owned slaves nor colonies that generational privilege/entitlement thing doesn't exist.

So no free pass for being a racist, apologize.

[–]Raven-Ray1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Bruh go back abd read your first reply. Why was that you initial reaction think about it truly.

Let it marinate. Maybe you’ll realize I’m not the one with racial biases here…

If your Croatian then don’t speak on American generational history if you don’t know. Which you don’t obviously.

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In the mental health institutions they need to be in?

There are more cases where we care to admit these young men had a history with police and the mental health system.

Severe antisocial behaviour, expressing interest in harming others, obsession with totalitarian leaders, severe narcissistic traits, fire starting, animal torture... it's like they're walking around with a sign that says "Hey I'm going to shoot up a school one day." And towards the end, days, sometimes weeks before the act they post manifestos or speeches on social media outlining their twisted "apocalypse" video where they are going to "avenge" society for the fact their spectrum disorder is so bad they feel they have to kill innocent classmates in an act of revenge.

There are patterns these guys follow like jigsaw puzzles, yet off to school they send them.

And look at Adam Lanza - just LOOK at him - and tell me this guy wasn't an accident of birth. What was his mother drinking during her pregnancy? Household cleaners?

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I don't think you can wrap this up neatly like you're doing. This country has been flush with guns for hundreds of years but it's only after 98 that we started to see a huge uptick in shootings. There is a societal problem here and even if red pill ideology is insufficient in explaining it, I think there are some cogent points to consider. I've seen people across all sorts of manopshere subs ring the alarms at the state of young boys and men today, often citing that they're sexually frustrated, alienated, and don't see the existence of a social contract. I'm hard pressed to see how that isn't a factor tbh.

You sound like the people in law enforcement and politics that mocked the fbi for creating a systemic method of identification and classification of serial killers back in the day. Shit isn't so simple that you can afford to brush it aside like this nonchalantly

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For anyone who doesn’t understand how authorities’ lack of action have caused mass shootings, here:

Pulse Night Club shooting - 2nd deadliest mass shooting in America. The shooter was constantly be reported to the police for his violent behavior, even on a terrorist watch list by the FBI. Turns out his father has connections with FBI, so that most likely had to do with why he was able to still get gun legally.

Parkland School Shooting - The shooter had a very long history of violence, including animal cruelty, putting a gun to people’s heads, and bringing weapons to school. The cops should have given him, but they didn’t because less juvenile delinquents means more money for local government. Even days prior to that shooting, he was posting pictures cutting himself onto instagram. Florida has The Baker Act, which would have been more than enough for the police to get him hospitalized. Even the FBI were alerted about the shooter because he threatened to shoot up the school on social media. On the day of the shooting, the school cop on duty did nothing to go in and stop the shooting. The parents are suing over it and the Department Of Justice gave them millions of because of neglectful the authorities were on every level to stop it.

Texas Church Shooting - Shooter was a convicted domestic and child abuser, but authorities failed to put his criminal record on the background check so he was still able to legally get a gun.

Buffalo Shooting - Shooter's from the strict gun law state of New York. Threatened to shoot up his school a year ago, so he shouldn’t have been able to get a gun in the state thanks to their Red Flag Laws, but it wasn’t enforced. It doesn’t help that he was in contact with a former FBI agent.

Subway Shooter - The shooter on a terrorist watch list. Prior to that, he had a list of arrests, but they were never felonies, so he was able to legally get a gun. What were the crimes?: James is "known" to police. He has nine prior arrests in New York, dating from 1992 to 1998. He was arrested four times for possession of burglary tools, once for a criminal sex act, twice for theft of service, once on a New Jersey warrant and once for criminal tampering. James has three prior arrests in New Jersey, in 1991, 1992 and 2007, He was arrested for trespass, larceny and disorderly conduct. It’s no coincidence people are leaving New Jersey and New York in droves now.

Uvalde Shooter - The police constantly lied about what happened, they did nothing to stop the shooter, but they did help stop parents from saving children.

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Not when it's a white girl trying to explain how black people feel.

A little secret, pretty much all people dislike when outsiders pretend to know more about their history and culture than they themselves as a member of the demographic.

And you are implying because we didn't take a college class on history we don't know black history.

Also kinda telling the only person defending her is (and excuse my stereotyping) also a white woman.

I'm sure she's very educated, but at the same time she's being told by actual black people that we don't care for the term

Maybe things have truly changed but I remember bubbling in "black/African American" on demographics sheets for end of year testing.

Bipoc pretty much just means not white and it's weird to lump black people Latinos and native Americans on the basis of "not white"

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I have nothing meaningful to add. But I vehemently hate these people, the shooters. I do have a shred of sympathy for their lack of access to mental health professionals and care but I absolutely don’t give a fuck about anything they have going on that makes them do this heinous shit

They waste away on echo chambers all day, radicalizing themselves with anger about a world that they truly don’t even understand but get told they’re right and that everything is everybody else’s fault

A bunch of misguided dumb ass soft dudes ill-equipped to handle any type of real adversity so they take it out on everyone else

My parents were in Vegas during the Mandalay Bay one. Granted they wouldn’t of been at a country concert but still an insanely surreal occurrence, this country is fucked and right now we have little to no chance of a future, this shit is not sustainable.

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Mental health coverage cant account for every unhinged crazy person in the country. Eventually one of em are gonna slip through the cracks.

[–]trail22 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nemma8833/F/UK Engaged 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

IMO there's intersectionality with poverty and class, availability, existing defense and property laws, mental health, fire power and gun culture all bubbling in a pot to create this and the wider gun issue in the USA, because it's not just school shootings that are a problem (and I'll stress this is a per capita basis).

Here in the UK guns are heavily controlled and most don't have nor want them. The remaining laws were restricted after a school shooting in 96 and we have not had a school shooting since. There are pockets that illegally obtain guns and they're mostly gang related who are concerned with shooting opposition members rather than being a threat to the wider population, they cost too much and are too hard to get to go waving them around. I know my grandfather was licensed and owned guns - I never saw them because they were locked in a safe at all times and after his death were handed to police.

But there are western countries with high take up of guns that do not have the same gun issues, so legality isn't the only thing.

On poverty, class and mental health; When you feel you have nothing to lose there's nothing holding you back. This won't be eradicated but it seems worse all around in the USA than it is in Europe, there's still all these issues but things many Americans frown upon like social democratic policies alleviate this and the gap isn't as extreme. Americas general medical treatment for the poorer hardly seems to be fit for purpose, how are you suppose to deal with mental issues for those with little money? And if 2A is an intrinsic right then removing rights of those pre-emptively, who have done no harm is minority report issue. Dealing with precrime is a delicate balance.

On availability and firepower; Just too much of each. I know it varies by state but conceal IMO is the only thing that's needed and if you can't conceal it don't take it out. Countries without the same gun issues you don't see groups walking around with assault rifles. This links into defense and culture too, but they're being used as a threat.

On defense and property laws; again varies, but the scope is wide enough in the USA I can go to /publicfreakout and watch someone deliberately escalate and goad another seemingly with intent to legally murder them. Here it would just be murder or manslaughter, property doesn't begin to approach the value of life, and defense must be proportionate to the threat. It feels like a outdated hangover from when insurance and police didn't exist and there was no other way a victim could be made whole. There are instances in the UK where this may be considered unjust and we're rather sensible with many of those instances resulting in a perverse verdict.

On culture; America would probably have a better time with gun crime if part of the population didn't worship them , its the same reverence that's holds some parts of the constitution up as absolute. This puts them beyond criticism and the bigger better arsenal is used as a clout making sure they stay viewed as cool toys rather than a weapon you would rather not need to be used as the absolute last resort.

Raising the age to 21 will likely help somewhat, but with so many ingredients baking this cake it'll take decades to really fix, and I'm not sure Americans really want to.

[–]Longshot_56No Pill 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

There is one factor you haven't mentioned (maybe tangentially related to the paragraph on social democratic reforms) and that is social and public trust. Strict gun control works if and only if

1) Citizens trust the government not to take advantage of the government's monopoly on firearm ownership. This requires decades of pre-existing, culturally engrained liberal values and a strong bill of rights with checks and balances that cannot be repealed with a simple 50.1% majority. (For its lack of gun violence, the UK has been trampling on some pretty basic liberal norms in some concerning ways recently. I wouldn't say its descending into a full 1984 style dystopia but I am concerned with what I am seeing.)

2) Citizens have a high degree of trust that the government to protect life and property. This means well-funded, well trained police and a relatively low rate of property and violent crime.

3) The culture and political climate foster a high degree of trust amongst citizens themselves. Of all the points listed, this is probably the one the US is falling the most short of. I'm not even Republican or a Conservative and even I can acknowledge the infeasibility of expecting half the country to willingly give up their guns when the other half has called them every name under the sun (white supremacist, nazi, fascist) and insisted they are ontologically evil for the past 10 years.

Also, fun fact: America's long-standing gun culture is largely your fault. Well, not you personally, but a hangover from the British Empire. The British Empire actually encouraged gun (at the time, musket) ownership because they assumed it made frontier settlements more self-sufficient and resilient against outside (coughindigenouscough) threats. The Spanish Empire, on the other hand, took the opposite approach, fearing that arming their settlers would make it difficult to suppress insurrections. Ironically, they were both right, because while English-speaking frontier settlements were better protected, the fact that almost every colonist from Massachusetts to Georgia owned a musket was one of the main reasons we won the Revolutionary War.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Mostly fair take tbh. The only thing I really can't agree with is the idea that insurance and police solve all problems.

You ever try to make a big insurance claim? They try, and usually succeed, to pay as little as possible. After the riots in Kenosha in 2020, some businesses that were burned to the ground had insurance that only barely covered clearing away the rubble, not rebuilding anything. And again, in Kenosha, the police just let it happen. They may have made arrests after the fact, but that doesn't put your business back together.

In Warren v. DC, the Supreme Court found the police have no duty to protect you. In that case, someone was being raped in an upstairs apartment. The woman in the downstairs apartment called the police. She watched out the window as a police cruiser pulled up. She yelled out that it'll be ok the police were there. She then watched as the police cruiser drove away, and the rapist came downstairs and started raping her.

[–]nemma8833/F/UK Engaged 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah insurance isn't infallible, monthly payments are calculated by cost in the cover, they will reimburse that cover. If the cost of rebuilding wasn't correct (which is different to the cost of a house at any point in time) then they're not obliged to give you more. A cautionary tale that building insurance should be about rebuilding rather than the cost of the house on the market.

I'm of two minds with US police. Again some of these issues come from your criminals regularly being armed and having to rely on a 'who shoots first' situation too often at any sign of threat meaning any involvement is considerably more dangerous than what our police have to deal with (you can fight knives with tasers in most situations, and even knife crime is lower per capita in the UK) and that does restrict and influence their responses, I can understand why USA police get trigger happy and it come around in a circle.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ahandtoyourdarknessxyour body, your choice, your responsibility 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]LillthOfBabylon 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Gun laws won’t stop bad guys from getting guns"

Most gun violence is gang-related, so yeah. Gangs know how to get guns. Ask Mexico.

Funny considering all these mass shootings are from people who legally obtained their guns.

Because the authorities didnt bother enforcing the laws we already have.

Also democrats don’t want to "ban guns,"

Yes they do. The politicians just dont have the votes and their voters dont realize their gun rights will slowly erode. Hell, Democrats were easily convinced to shutdown the economy for two years and that Biden was the better choice to vote on. Now we’re dealing with record inflation, record shortages, and record gas prices thanks to them. If Democrats had their way, we’d be like Canada where its banning handgun sales and fucking with people’s bank account over truckers protesting the government mandates.

they just want sensible gun legislation including background checks and training

Background checks don’t mean shit when your damn authorities don’t enforce them. Five shootings would’ve been prevented had they done their job. Go check out the most recent comment on here. I explained it.

[–]relish5kYang Pilled 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah it doesn't stop the bad guys from getting guns. But those bad guys are career criminals, the mafiosi and mercenaries.

You know what they have in common? They're in it for the business and murder is bad for business. Plus selling guns to some halfwit mass-murdering teenager that's gonna get his ass fried by the cops will lead those cops right back to the arms dealer and get the entire operation smoked.

The bitterest pill to swallow is that despite being complete lowlifes, illegal arms dealers do more thorough background checks than legal arms dealers and career criminals and the mafiosi are better at keeping law & order on their turfs than US cops.

"The bad guys" are not getting guns to shoot at civilians (with the exception of foreign terror groups). They are getting guns to shoot at other bad guys when they encroach on their turf.

[–]BoboliBurt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Organized crime is rational and for profit. To attack innocents is to invite repercussions. To attack rival gangs before they attack you is reasonable considering the murder clearance rate of those crimes in large cities.

Note that gangs arent robbing open air drug markets, they are facilitating them. If they began attacking their customers, theyd kill the golden goose and bring in the police.

But we should all know this. It is exactly why the ATeam never killed the toughs and hardmen they ran off. The people that hired them would be charged with felony murder, theyd be villians in the press, and the police (other than Colonel Deckers meager band) would get involved.

This is also why despite folk hero status in their communities at times, financial and organized criminals prey almost entirely and exclusively on members of their own community. This goes for modern street gangs, religious financial conmen, ponzi schemers line Madoff, and the mob. The cases where it spills over to other communities are immortalized because those are the cases the government chooses to pursue to reassert their exclusive right to violence and detention in the modern social contract

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Then how come when feminism became a thing, women started gaining more equality? Yes, feminism is about women. BLM is about black people. Western patriarchy is definitely real. Just look at how they are treating abortions. Less than 10 years ago, women couldn’t serve in combat. Women could be fired for being pregnant up until 1978. In some states, women couldn’t sign a business loan without a man signing it, until 1988. Women could be denied credit cards until 1974. Women couldn’t sue employers for sexual harassment till 1977. Marital rape was legal until 1993. Women couldn’t run in the Boston Marathon until 1972. Women couldn’t box in the Olympics until 2012. All of this stuff is incredibly recent and all within my parents’ lifetimes. A patriarchal society doesn’t disappear with some laws.

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Except for decades of the whole IRA thing, although I guess they're not really far right per se so that doesn't count. Or the dozens of stabbings, car attacks, occasional bombing. But that was mostly not white people so do those really count? There's still a few white nationalist stabbings too. But certainly the level of violence is much less than the US or any other American country.

Instead you see massive pedophile rings raping thousands of women because people are terrified of saying the wrong thing and winding up ostracized, attacked, or locked up for hate speech. Or 15 year olds being interrogated by police for posting the wrong type of jokes on twitter.

But fundamentally it's a question of whether you believe in free speech or not. And a lot of liberals (and leftists) simply don't. And that's fine. It's just not an ideology compatible with the spirit of the constitution and pretending you're protecting against some "ultimate evil mind virus" of nazism or whatever.

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The fetishizing of weapons by white men is a pathology that has greatly spread in my lifetime.

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And the fetishization of "violent" white men is a virally spreading POC pathology, even though it's completely inverted in terms of who is actually carrying out violence.

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Like you care about black folks shooting each other.

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American culture becoming more conservative. lol

America has gone so far left recently it has the heads of many nations spinning. Little wonder why it fails to understand Afghans, Russians, Chinese, and generally all those living in the south pacific. We thought the Afgan people wanted western ideals, they don't. We thought Russia would have huge internal backlash against Putin. Guess what? Russians like Putin, and hate what was before him. The west just ensured Russia is pushed into the arms of China which was a mistake. You'll hear USA leaders talk about this blunder in the future but as of now only a few (democrats) are willing to say it. Then China.. The US doesn't understand China at all. All the countries in the south pacific that the US thought would gravitate to it over China? Wrong. More miscalculations by the echo-chamber ethnocentric progressive west.

I am cheering for democracy and human rights. But tons of countries look at the push to hand out hormones (castrate) children and are just like, wtf? I'm getting ready to cringe at the next massive miss-calculation of the hyper liberal west in the south pacific.

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minor - a person under the age of full legal responsibility.

child - a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority

The age of majority (adult) refers to the age at which an individual will be legally considered an adult. It is the age at which one will be subject to the full legal rights and responsibilities of an adult, including the right to vote, the right to join the military or the right to sign a contract.

When compared to adults, juveniles are generally more impulsive, aggressive, emotionally volatile, risky, and reactive in their behaviors (all very well documented).

Are you really arguing this? We are having kids who people like you all misled, sue because they realize they made massive life-altering mistakes by trusting 'experts' while they were children. It's well known how impressionable children can be since they are still in the process of forming basic frameworks for understanding the world.

Most cultures look at the western world and think we are off the rails liberal. That was my only point. My point is accurate. The vast majority of non-western cultures have negative judgements on giving CHILDREN hormone blockers. Nothing I said is inaccurate. Sorry if you are offended by the truth.

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Nevada used to make divorce available after only a short period of residency. Don't know if that's still the case or if it's still important nowadays.

I'd argue that progressive welfare policies did as much to kill unions as Reagan et. al. When people can feed their families by signing up for bennies rather than running the risks associated with organizing, they'll naturally take the path of least resistance. No one ever got his head busted applying for an EBT card!

Also, there was no way to beat the unions without first taking fathers out of the home. When hard-working fathers come home to hungry child, they'll grab pitchforks and torches. When they don't have children, or don't come home to them, they tend to not look beyond making enough money to have a good time on Friday night.

Edited to add:

That's a function of economic deprivation.

History suggests otherwise. Women did not choose single motherhood in large numbers during the Great Depression.

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No one ever turned down a living wage union job for a pittance in food stamps.

If given that choice, of course not. But that's not the way life generally works, is it? Rather the existence of government benefits that allow the working class to get by disincentivizes them from organizing. What's the old saying? "Desperate times call for desperate measures"? As long as times aren't truly desperate, many if not most of the working class are content to take what they're given.

We need to support families more not less.

I disagree. I think people should support themselves. I grew up working-class at a time when most men had good union jobs that enabled them to support their stay-at-home wives and kids. That's the model we should aspire to, not one in which grown-ass men and women are dependent on handouts from the government!

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Pulse Night Club shooting - 2nd deadliest mass shooting in America.
The shooter was constantly be reported to the police for his violent behavior, even on a terrorist watch list by the FBI. Turns out his father has connections with FBI, so that most likely had to do with why he was able to still get gun legally.
Parkland School Shooting.
The shooter had a very long history of violence, including animal cruelty, putting a gun to people’s heads, and bringing weapons to school. The cops should have given him, but they didn’t because less juvenile delinquents means more money for local government. Even days prior to that shooting, he was posting pictures cutting himself onto instagram. Florida has The Baker Act, which would have been more than enough for the police to get him hospitalized. Even the FBI were alerted about the shooter because he threatened to shoot up the school on social media. On the day of the shooting, the school cop on duty did nothing to go in and stop the shooting. The parents are suing over it and the Department Of Justice gave them millions of because of neglectful the authorities were on every level to stop it.
Texas Church Shooting
Shooter was a convicted domestic and child abuser, but authorities failed to put his criminal record on the background check so he was still able to legally get a gun.
Buffalo Shooter
From a strict gun law state of New York. Threatened to shoot up his school a year ago, so he shouldn’t have been able to get a gun in the state thanks to their Red Flag Laws, but it wasn’t enforced. It doesn’t help that he was in contact with a former FBI agent.
Subway Shooter
The shooter on a terrorist watch list. Prior to that, he had a list of arrests, but they were never felonies, so he was able to legally get a gun. What were the crimes?: James is "known" to police. He has nine prior arrests in New York, dating from 1992 to 1998. He was arrested four times for possession of burglary tools, once for a criminal sex act, twice for theft of service, once on a New Jersey warrant and once for criminal tampering.
James has three prior arrests in New Jersey, in 1991, 1992 and 2007, He was arrested for trespass, larceny and disorderly conduct.
It’s no coincidence people are leaving New Jersey and New York in droves now.
Uvalde Shooter
The police constantly lied about what happened, they did nothing to stop the shooter, but they did help stop parents from saving children.

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Why do you think you are more capable of making these decisions than panels of world-renowned infectious disease specialists? I’ll listen to the doctors, thanks.

Again, the deaths were calculated as a percentage of the population, not in raw numbers. There were not significant differences in pre-existing conditions.

“People” are not “allowing themselves to be euthanized”. Assisted death is a complex decision made WITH panels of doctors who have to approve it. In the case you reference that made headlines, no decision has been made.

Yes Trudeau is banning the sale of handguns and significantly increasing the penalties for illegal gun activity and trade. This is a great thing that most Canadians strongly agree with. I think it will make most of a difference in suicide rates.

Also the truckers were absolute morons and freezing their accounts - they were eventually unfrozen - was one of the best ways to stop them. It worked.

[–]LillthOfBabylon1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why do you think you are more capable of making these decisions than panels of world-renowned infectious disease specialists?

Because they're corrupt and some of them aided in the creation of the virus, like Anthony Faucci.

Again, the deaths were calculated as a percentage of the population, not in raw numbers.

We’re the fastest country in the world and main people dying from the virus were obese.

There were not significant differences in pre-existing conditions.

Claims you trust the science while you ignore the science on who died the most from the virus.

“People” are not “allowing themselves to be euthanized”. Assisted death is a complex decision made

Which people are making because they're too poor to live, which is pretty awful for a country to condone.

WITH panels of doctors who have to approve it.

They approved of a woman getting euthanized when all she needed was better housing. Where the FUCK is the compassion in that?

Yes Trudeau is banning the sale of handguns

No thank you. Seeing how he handled the truckers, I feel safer in the USA.

Also the truckers were absolute morons and freezing their accounts - they were eventually unfrozen - was one of the best ways to stop them. It worked.

No thank you. Seeing how he handled the truckers, I feel safer in the USA. The government is the scariest people to give more power to. Those who give up liberty for safety lose both.

[–]MelodiousTones2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So now conspiracy theories. Dope. There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING true about Fauci “creating this illness”. There is NO proof the COVID was lab created at all. It would take thousands of people lying in perfect unison to cover something like that up.

“People” are not making that decision. The SINGLE case you are referring to involves a severely disabled woman. Do you really generalize based on single extreme cases? Did you go to university?

She needs a very specific type of housing. Pretty sure she’s gotten it at this point.

Again, there is much less poverty in Canada than there is in the US. Everybody knows that.

COVID laws and regulations were necessary and the vaccine is necessary. It’s notable that over 90% of the truckers affected by the mandate got fully vaccinated.

[–]DonQOnIce3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]themalcman3 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Melodious, you are putting up the good fight spitting actual facts. These people are beyond the point of reason. Once they go this far to the extremes of conspiracy theory and anti science there’s simply nothing you can do. You could sit there and give them immutable facts and you’ll just get ignored.

You are likely a lot like me, I don’t think Covid was handled perfectly in Canada (far better then US), you are aware lots of Canadian politics is flawed and are willing to have an intellectual discourse on the topic of these things - which is why you thought you could reach out to these brain washed morons, but they are on a different level of misinformation and lack of education.

Lilith literally said they feel “safer in the US than Canada” that really sums up how mushed this persons brain is, there no free health care, horrible transportation, greater wealth gap, mass shootings daily, higher all cause mortality, 18 year olds can get fully automatic assault rifles, and they feel “safer” there.

The funniest part to me is how they think the government is so corrupt and fooling the masses, our governments can’t build proper high speed transportation, we still fill out forms manually and use windows 98 software, melodious thinks the governing is both stupid and corrupt but also capable of engineering mass propaganda campaigns, creating viruses, fooling 100s of millions of people lololol go to a government office, it’s 50-70 year olds doing paperwork, you think they are wayyyy to smart and organized.

[–]IveGotIssues99181 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]LillthOfBabylon1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So now conspiracy theories. Dope. There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING true about Fauci “creating this illness”.

There is NO proof the COVID was lab created at all.

There were documents leaked showing his involvement.

https://nypost.com/2021/11/04/letter-confirms-wuhan-lab-virus-study-was-funded-by-taxpayers/

The SINGLE case you are referring to involves a severely disabled woman.

And instead of giving her housing, Canada decided killing her off was better?

Again, there is much less poverty in Canada

I mean, when you euthanize your poor, that’s easier to accomplish.

COVID laws and regulations were necessary

Before the vaccine, I’ll agree.

and the vaccine is necessary.

For the vulnerable, I’ll agree.

It’s notable that over 90% of the truckers affected by the mandate got fully vaccinated.

And?

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No, this is all taken in terms relative to population.

Also less people die our mass shootings in relations to our population than in 10 other countries. That’s what the link also said.

More people die from gun violence than in any other developed country.

More people, more cities, and more gangs. Yes, I'm aware. Gun violence and mass shootings are different topics. Most of our gun violence happen in urbanized areas with very dense populations. The USA, due to our population size, has a lot of very densely populated urban areas. Also, we still have more young than those countries.

These mass shootings in schools DO NOT occur with ANYWHERE NEAR the frequency they do in the US.

Also less people die our mass shootings in relations to our population than in 10 other countries. That’s what the link also said.

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[–]techr0nin 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (64 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think “X kills more people than guns so guns aren’t a problem” is a good argument against gun control. These are all separate issues and addressing one doesn’t mean you shouldn’t address others.

In addition, it’s really a case of cost/benefit. Cars kill people, but banning cars obviously would cause far more harm than good societally speaking. A good faith, intellectually honest analysis of the pros and cons of gun ownership seems to be in order here if this is the line of reasoning you want the pursue.

The legal argument regarding 2nd amendment and the interpretation thereof, or the principle of freedom/liberty and the distrust of government are separate arguments. Additionally, the solution doesn’t have to be all or nothing in regards to guns, nor does it have to be 100% foolproof, as much as the NRA seem to love to frame it as. A majority of Americans are pro tighter standards when it comes to gun ownership.

[–]LillthOfBabylon 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (31 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think “X kills more people than guns so guns aren’t a problem” is a good argument against gun control.

It is because it means you can't possibly care about the damage guns are doing, when you're not concerned about the damage cars/trucks can do when we let teenagers legally use them.

In addition, it’s really a case of cost/benefit

Using guns for self-defense is a really big benefit.

the principle of freedom/liberty and the distrust of government are separate arguments

They're heavily correlated. Just like it's always a weird coincidence that some time after countries establish massive gun restrictions/bans, the governments do some heinous shit. For extreme cases, The Armenian Genocide, The Holocaust, and the The Chinese Communist revolution all happened a few years after the government banned or heavily restricted guns. In milder cases, how Canada handled the truckers protest and how Australia handled COVID-19. Even in America, our more anti-gun liberal area were more dictatorial than the pro-gun conservative ones. Yes, they're separate issues... that correlate heavily.

the solution doesn’t have to be all or nothing in regards to guns

There is no all-or-nothing in America. We have gun control. In fact, a lot of those shootings would have been prevent if the authorities had enforced the laws we already have.

A majority of Americans are pro tighter standards when it comes to gun ownership.

Again, we have restrictions on gun. They don't work when the authorities don't enforce them.

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No difference between a 4% rate of mental health diagnosis in France vs. 23% in the U.S.? I'm not sure we are reading the same study, lol.

Now, since you're not from the U.S., let me tell you something you may not know. In fact, I'll say the quiet part out loud. Having spent the last year working in a school, I'm not surprised there are school shootings; I'm surprised that they don't take place every week ... because there are a whole lot of troubled kids out there.

In one of the schools I worked for, someone wrote "I will kill you all" on the wall of the fourth-grade girls' bathroom. Fourth grade.

The problem is that there are a lot of disturbed kids who never act out; who never harm anyone (except, perhaps, themselves). How do we determine which ones actually pose a danger, and then -- having made that determination -- what the heck do we do with them? As I pointed out earlier, in the case of at least one mass killer, her family recognized she was off her rocker and tried to have her committed, but there were no inpatient facilities available, at least to people of modest means.

This is the real problem, not guns, IMO.

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I think you missed the point I was making.

It’s that Switzerland has liberal gun laws only in certain respects, and regulates them quite strongly in a way that the US does not. In the US, we don’t even enforce all the laws we have: we have laws on the books that are supposed to block people with a history of domestic violence from being able to purchase a gun (and DV priors are a fairly good predictor for future violent crime)… and yet this law is often not enforced. We don’t even consistently do background checks, and guns are not registered.

When Australia severely reduced gun ownership following a mass shooting tragedy, their murders and suicides plummeted.

It is incredibly thoughtless to simply dismiss any and all gun reforms in the US just because “but but Switzerland!”

And if you didn’t know, Switzerland also didn’t legalize the vote for women until the 70s, and they couldn’t functionally vote in all cantons until the 90s. So… “be more like Switzerland” is kinda not that helpful. The US is not Switzerland. For one, I seriously doubt you as a European want Americans to have the kind of massive standing army a policy of mandatory military service would create.

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The constitution is not claiming an unlimited right to firearms.

Can you quote the limit stated within the constitution? If not, can you quote the amendment fully? The founding fathers who wrote the amendment let you equip yourselves equally to the military at the time.

I’ll go with the opinion of former Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Berger on this topic, rather than the “it’s your legal right to be murdered” lobby. opinion

And I'll stick with facts.

And another argument is that the constitution is not the infalible word of god. They also endorsed and allowed slavery, and we as a nation decided to undo that constitutionally allowed privilege. I would support a constitutional amendment to eliminate our gun problem.

Then make the amendment and have it pass all 3 branches of government.

my state constitution has an actual definition for our militia and states that any person who is over 18 is part of my state's militia.

I am aware that some states value gun ownership over human life and public safety.

That's your opinion, and the more I talk with you, the less I care about it. Legally, my right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

[–]badgersonice 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Can you quote the limit stated within the constitution? If not, can you quote the amendment fully? The founding fathers who wrote the amendment let you equip yourselves equally to the military at the time.

And at the time, the military weapons were muzzle-loading flint-locks. Muzzle-loading flintlocks are what the founding fathers has in mind. And as I mentioned before, they also had slave ownership in mind.

And yes, I can quote the amendment fully. I disagree with your “everyone can do whatever they want” interpretation of it. I don’t believe it’s reasonable at all to interpret the words of the second a amendment as meaning there should be no regulation whatsoever, especially when the word “regulation” is in the amendment. And it is actually insane if you think it should be illegal to outlaw civilians from owning nuclear fucking weapons or ICBMs.

And I'll stick with facts.

The constitution is in fact not an edict from God.

Then make the amendment and have it pass all 3 branches of government.

I am aware this is impossible in our broken incompetent government. That doesn’t mean I think it is right for people to hoard devices to kill everyone.

Legally, my right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

It legally already is: there are many legal restrictions on owning weapons, even if you think there should not be. If you have a conceal-carry permit, for example, you are complying with the legal abridgment of the right to bear arms in whatever way you feel like.

And hell, I’m sure even you believe felons in prison should have their legal right to bear arms abridged while they’re in prison, or that 10 year olds should be allowed to buy AR-15s. You simply disagree with where the line should be drawn, not with allowing all bearing of arms.

[–]NiceGuyNumber4 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Can you quote the limit stated within the constitution? If not, can you quote the amendment fully? The founding fathers who wrote the amendment let you equip yourselves equally to the military at the time.

And at the time, the military weapons were muzzle-loading flint-locks. Muzzle-loading flintlocks are what the founding fathers has in mind. And as I mentioned before, they also had slave ownership in mind.

No, the first automatic weapons existed. You were allowed to have cannons on your battleship.

And yes, I can quote the amendment fully. I disagree with your “everyone can do whatever they want” interpretation of it. I don’t believe it’s reasonable at all to interpret the words of the second a amendment as meaning there should be no regulation whatsoever, especially when the word “regulation” is in the amendment. And it is actually insane if you think it should be illegal to outlaw civilians from owning nuclear fucking weapons or ICBMs.

"Regulated" means properly functioning. A well regulated militia is one that functions well. That is necessary for the people to be free. It is the reason that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It does not say only militias should have weapons. That doesn't make sense anyway because a militia is just armed civilians who are not part of the military.

I am legally a part of my states militia because they actually define it in our state constitution.

And I'll stick with facts.

The constitution is in fact not an edict from God.

I never said it was. Keep on smacking them strawmen, though.

Then make the amendment and have it pass all 3 branches of government.

I am aware this is impossible in our broken incompetent government. That doesn’t mean I think it is right for people to hoard devices to kill everyone.

The law matters more than what you think.

Legally, my right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

It legally already is: there are many legal restrictions on owning weapons, even if you think there should not be. If you have a conceal-carry permit, for example, you are complying with the legal abridgment of the right to bear arms in whatever way you feel like.

I understand that.

And hell, I’m sure even you believe felons in prison should have their legal right to bear arms abridged while they’re in prison, or that 10 year olds should be allowed to buy AR-15s. You simply disagree with where the line should be drawn, not with allowing all bearing of arms.

Oh, wow more strawmen. If it wasn't for the wall of text I'd say you weren't even trying.

[–]badgersonice 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

No, the first automatic weapons existed. You were allowed to have cannons on your battleship.

Cannon in the American Revolution were not automatic or semi automatic weapons. They were match-lit and Had to be rolled forward back into place to reset for the next shot. They are nothing like modern weaponry.

"Regulated" means properly functioning. A well regulated militia is one that functions well.

A properly functioning militia is trained and isnt supposed to shoot at young children or shoot themselves in the head.

It does not say only militias should have weapons.

Nor does it say that civilians must be enabled to murder hundreds or thousands or people within minutes.

The law matters more than what you think.

And the law already regulates the ownership and use of weapons, contrary to your “everyone can own and do whatever they like” strategy.

I understand that.

You seem not to, since you’re arguing any regulation or restriction of ownership of weaponry is illegal, which is clearly false.

[–]NiceGuyNumber4 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

No, the first automatic weapons existed. You were allowed to have cannons on your battleship.

Cannon in the American Revolution were not automatic or semi automatic weapons. They were match-lit and Had to be rolled forward back into place to reset for the next shot. They are nothing like modern weaponry.

2 separate statements.

"Regulated" means properly functioning. A well regulated militia is one that functions well.

A properly functioning militia is trained and isnt supposed to shoot at young children or shoot themselves in the head.

How do you train without a gun?

It does not say only militias should have weapons.

Nor does it say that civilians must be enabled to murder hundreds or thousands or people within minutes.

It doesn't say a lot of things. Focus on what it actually says.

The law matters more than what you think.

And the law already regulates the ownership and use of weapons, contrary to your “everyone can own and do whatever they like” strategy.

And those laws are unconstitutional.

I understand that.

You seem not to, since you’re arguing any regulation or restriction of ownership of weaponry is illegal, which is clearly false.

Laws violate the law all the time. It's why higher courts exist. Federal law supercedes all other laws. No law can be made that goes against the constitution. It's that simple, but people make livings off of being convincing.

[–]badgersonice 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

How do you train without a gun?

You don’t have to own the gun or sleep with it under your pillow to train with a gun. I’ve gone to a shooting range without owning a weapon. The members of the military do not own the weapons they use.

Think before you ask silly questions.

It doesn't say a lot of things. Focus on what it actually says.

What it actually says is that guns are needed for the militia and says nothing else beyond that. You’re imagining that it says “and anybody can do whatever they want”. Show me where it says “absolutely no regulation shall ever be allowed and everybody under all circumstances must be allowed to own any gun they want”.

And those laws are unconstitutional.

This is your own very uninformed gun-fetishizing opinion.

If no gun regulations are ever legal, then please answer: do you support convicted murderers in prison being allowed to possess any weapon they want? According to you, it is unconstitutional to deprive them of the right to bear arms.

Laws violate the law all the time. It's why higher courts exist. Federal law supercedes all other laws. No law can be made that goes against the constitution.

Then gun regulations and restrictions are indeed constitutional because they have been made, and you’re complaining about nothing.

[–]NiceGuyNumber41 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How do you train without a gun?

You don’t have to own the gun or sleep with it under your pillow to train with a gun. I’ve gone to a shooting range without owning a weapon. The members of the military do not own the weapons they use.

Think before you ask silly questions.

Oh so a militia (which by definition is comprised of civilians) would have access to guns to train? Does that not fall under the "keep and bear" part?

It doesn't say a lot of things. Focus on what it actually says.

What it actually says is that guns are needed for the militia and says nothing else beyond that.

No, it's the opposite.

And those laws are unconstitutional.

This is your own very uninformed gun-fetishizing opinion.

No laws can be made that violate the constitution.

If no gun regulations are ever legal, then please answer: do you support convicted murderers in prison being allowed to possess any weapon they want? According to you, it is unconstitutional to deprive them of the right to bear arms.

Prisoners don't have many constitutional rights. You're comparing people locked inside jail cells who cannot eat or go outside a small room without permission to free citizens.

Your inner authoritarian is showing.

Laws violate the law all the time. It's why higher courts exist. Federal law supercedes all other laws. No law can be made that goes against the constitution.

Then gun regulations and restrictions are indeed constitutional because they have been made, and you’re complaining about nothing.

Just reread that last quote. Both mine and yours. If twice isn't enough there's no reason to continue this conversation.

[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your inner authoritarian is showing.

Ah yes, I’d course. Any laws or restrictions are “authoritarian”. You’re free to move to countries like Somalia where there are no gun laws, or indeed any laws, to get in your way, if anything shy of absolute unfettered freedom to do whatever you want is your goal. But in the US, the libertarian (or sovereign citizen) obsession with absolute freedom in the absence of any regulation does not align with the actual practice of law or with the constitution.

But since you’re now resorting to slinging around bullshit insults and refusing to consider any possible position other than to demand private citizens be encouraged to each buy their own predator drones and nukes (a situation where really, only the modern aristocracy would be truly armed, because only they could afford the best), I agree, there is no reason to continue this conversation.

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[–]badgersonice1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Which is it? Are we scared of the poor having "weapons of war" or are we protecting the poor from only the rich having guns?

Both.

Your cheap AR-15 is nothing against the US military, and you cannot possibly hope to afford the equipment you’d need to be a challenge for the military or for the incredible equipment the ultra-wealthy could afford if they were permitted.

But likewise, that cheap AR-15 is more than sufficient to terrorize other poor people. Under a functioning government, I wouldn’t need to be wealthy enough to buy private security just to be able to be safe from marauding people wielding their favorite guns to get what they want.

It's not like every politician telling those silly poor people not to have guns is protected by men with guns, right?

How delightful. Your goal is to murder them so you can be the big guy on top with all the guns.

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It’s not a solution, there isn’t one at this point with the amount of guns in America.

If Americans want to have guns the rest of the world should just shut up and leave them to it. I’m glad that the people in my country don’t have any interest in guns, but we have our own problems.

Part of the American identity is the 2nd amendment.

I think a lot of people are just surprised how hard you hold on to your guns, based on some people you didn’t know making up rules that you never got to agree to, quite a while ago.

If I lived in America I would own a gun, and my reason would be to protect myself, but I would be pissed off that I had to own one.

Americans just find guns cool, in other countries these people go into the army so they can shoot so we know who is serious about it.

I just don’t get why you don’t want less guns in circulation in your country, do you want more?

I’m so confused.

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Can someone explain to me why we apply more value to people killed in shootings than people who die through other means? I will give two examples the first one being the obesity epidemic which will kill more people than gun violence ever would and this includes children with childhood obesity who will most likely die from adulthood obesity, this issue would most likely have bipartisan support if it was pushed but I never see anyone trying to address it. The 2nd would be medical malpractice again killing a far larger amount of people every year, this could also be addressed by pushing more highly intelligent people into medicine and through actions like select scholarships/debt forgiveness for people who are in and complete med school. Like I am able to understand how individual events can be traumatizing but I feel like it is such as waste of human effort when there are more important causes of deaths by the numbers, and some will say we can focus on multiple issues at once but I think at least the obesity epidemic is more important than gun violance.

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I'm asking once again: can someone tell me why the US government and their allies wouldn't just declare a potential uprising as terrorists and obliterate them? We're not talking about some caves in Afghanistan here. Every square inch of US territory is known by the US government and they're just going to drop thermobaric weapons on large gatherings of rebels and siege the rest until they die of starvation in their DIY bunkers. If the US government gets impatient enough I could even see chemical weapons being deployed.

We're talking about an existential threat to the US government, NATO and other nuclear powers here. If nukes fall into rebel hands, there's a very real risk of a global nuclear war. No one wants that. A couple hundred thousand dead rebels is a price that the world wouldn't think twice about paying to ensure that all nukes remain under official US government control.

Once the kiddy gloves come off, an AR-15 isn't going to do jackshit.

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The solution is to encourage celebrity shootings

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Shootings were a thing before the internet.

Why do you always have such brilliant takes?

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Compare the number of shootings before and after the Internet

C'mon bruh are you even trying?

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Ok

Still don't see it

[–]TheFinalDefender1 points 4 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Nice try at conflating mass shootings with suicides and gang violence which are a completely separate problem

[Now try again with the real chart] (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Total_Deaths_in_US_Mass_Shootings_1982-2021.jpg)

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ou're not even allowed to speak out against the mass migration going in your countries. You'll be arrested. Your news sites distort facts whenever anything goes against your government's liberal narrative. You don't even have the permission to voice your own opinions, and yet you speak of what the lack of guns cost you? It cost you the most basic right of self-expression, and you don't even miss it, because you're a sheep-like slave.

I have no idea where you get the idea that we cannot speak out about mass migration. It is always one of the top three political topics in the debate and it has changed the political landscape quite a lot in the last decade.

Take Italy as an example, because of geography it is the entry point for illegal immigrants from Africa. Starting from 2016 they implemented restrictions that reduced immigration by like 90% and allowing only asylum seekers.

We speak out against migration all the time and we are not arrested. The media do not silence anything migration related, it is an hot topic and generates clicks. Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about.

If you're so happy in the liberal hellscapes of oppression and refugee camps you've created in Europe.

Have you ever been in western Europe?

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“…but there was never the intent for a constant regulated presence.”

“…and when a crisis emerges that population bands together, forms well regulated militias and gets after it. During the rest of the time they’re just people that own guns.”

Waiting until there’s a crisis to train people to work together as a cohesive unit, establish a hierarchy of capable leadership to lead these smaller units is the worst idea imaginable - especially if the pool of people to serve in the militia have no experience and no established protocols to guide them.

I have worked for three different hospitals, and they have protocols in place for a plethora of crises and mass casualty events that are almost never needed. But the protocols exist because you don’t wait until there’s a crisis to look for trained professionals to train John and Jane Everyman, and then formulate the protocols they need to regulate/operate cohesively as a unit and respond to the crisis effectively.

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Cajun Navy Foundation Origins Founded in September 2016 by Rob Gaudet, who was a key organizer behind the very first Cajun Navy, Rob’s thoughtful approach to citizen-led rescues helped save thousands of lives. His method was simple; he spearheaded a Cajun Navy group whose only requirement was that citizens agree to work alongside local authorities.

This was what separated his efforts from other citizen boaters who were frustrated at being turned back by authorities. By working within the guidelines established by authorities, Cajun Navy boaters with his group were allowed by the authorities to put their boats into the flood waters. This collaboration between authorities and citizens saved thousands of lives in the rapidly rising waters. Rob’s actions proved that citizens acting out of concern for their neighbors could be just as effective at rescue and relief as established top down organizations.” https://cajunrelief.org/about-us/

Per their own admission, the Cajun Army has successfully responded to emergencies because members worked with and listened to local authorities with formal training. In recent years, the group has started making efforts to become more organised.

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“General George Washington defended the militia in public, but in correspondence with Congress expressed his opinion of the militia quite to the contrary: ‘To place any dependence on the Militia, is, assuredly, resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender Scenes of domestic life; unaccustomed to the din of Arms; totally unacquainted with every kind of military skill, which being followed by a want of confidence in themselves, when opposed to Troops regularly trained, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge and superior in Arms, makes them timid, and ready to fly from their own shadows ... if I was called upon to declare upon Oath, whether the Militia have been most serviceable or hurtful upon the whole, I should subscribe to the latter.’”

At the end of the Revolutionary War, a political atmosphere developed at the local level where the militia was seen with fondness, despite their spotty record on the battlefield. Typically, when the militia did act well was when the battle came into the locale of the militia, and local inhabitants tended to exaggerate the performance of the local militia versus the performance of the Continental Army.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

[–]Slyfer_Seven1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think he compromised, not agreed. There’s more quotes regarding his opinion of the militias - he wasn’t a fan.

“At the time of the drafting of the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, a political sentiment existed in the newly formed United States involving suspicion of peacetime armies not under civilian control. This political belief has been identified as stemming from the memory of the abuses of the standing army of Oliver Cromwell and King James II, in Great Britain in the prior century, which led to the Glorious Revolution and resulted in placing the standing army under the control of Parliament. During the Congressional debates, James Madison discussed how a militia could help defend liberty against tyranny and oppression. (Source I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789) Though during his presidency, after enduring the failures of the militia in the War of 1812, Madison came to favor the maintenance of a strong standing army.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

[–]Slyfer_Seven1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, let’s make one thing clear: I don’t want sweeping gun bans. In my rural community, guns were tools for hunting and self-defence (living in the countryside, if the police were needed, then you had to be to defend yourself because they probably weren’t going to drive out in time).

However, I was taught that guns are extremely dangerous tools if mishandled. One of my classmates experienced that firsthand: he “showed off” his new shotgun to his friends, and ended up shooting himself in the nutsack/leg. They had to amputate one of his nuts, but otherwise he recovered and told us all about it at school (including details about his performance that none of us wanted to know). My classmate didn’t seem to understand his luck - he could have shot himself in the wrong place and either died or rendered himself disabled, or he could have shot and wounded/killed one of his friends.

When I took a CC course, my instructor emphasised safe handling above all else; accidents - often fatal - always happen because the guns were easily accessible by someone that didn’t know how to handle them properly (usually minors). So, I support gun control that requires licensure and training to own any firearm. I would like to go a step further and require a comprehensive background check that includes a psych evaluation when applying for the license.

Why do we need militias? Going by American history, their performance was mostly poor or subpar - they weren’t an effective military force overall.

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[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The problem with that is that, in American history, militias were often ineffective or performed subpar; those some proved to be an asset during the Revolutionary War, overall the militia wasn’t reliable more often than not.

“In September 1755, George Washington, then adjutant-general of the Virginia militia, upon a frustrating and futile attempt to call up the militia to respond to a frontier Indian attack: ... he experienced all the evils of insubordination among the troops, perverseness in the militia, inactivity in the officers, disregard of orders, and reluctance in the civil authorities to render a proper support. And what added to his mortification was, that the laws gave him no power to correct these evils, either by enforcing discipline, or compelling the indolent and refractory to their duty ... The militia system was suited for only to times of peace. It provided for calling out men to repel invasion; but the powers granted for effecting it were so limited, as to be almost inoperative.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

It sounds like General George Washington was trying to herd cats instead self-organised men in a militia.

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“In 1794, a militia numbering approximately 13,000 was raised and personally led by President George Washington to quell the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania. From this experience, a major weakness of a States-based citizen militia system was found to be the lack of systematic army organization, and a lack of training for engineers and officers. George Washington repeatedly warned of these shortcomings up until his death in 1799. Two days before his death, in a letter to General Alexander Hamilton, George Washington wrote: "The establishment of a Military Academy upon a respectable and extensive basis has ever been considered by me as an object of primary importance to this country; and while I was in the chair of government, I omitted no proper opportunity of recommending it in my public speeches, and otherwise to the attention of the legislature." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

[–]Reddit_User_543mil1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

“In September 1755, George Washington, then adjutant-general of the Virginia militia, upon a frustrating and futile attempt to call up the militia to respond to a frontier Indian attack: ... he experienced all the evils of insubordination among the troops, perverseness in the militia, inactivity in the officers, disregard of orders, and reluctance in the civil authorities to render a proper support. And what added to his mortification was, that the laws gave him no power to correct these evils, either by enforcing discipline, or compelling the indolent and refractory to their duty ... The militia system was suited for only to times of peace. It provided for calling out men to repel invasion; but the powers granted for effecting it were so limited, as to be almost inoperative.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

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Agreed. I was taught as a child that guns are dangerous but important tools for: Hunting and self-defence.

The current subset of Conservatives - even people that I’ve known most of my life - that have adopted gun ownership as a major aspect of their identity is ridiculous and disturbing. It’s the equivalent to adopting a power drill as a major part of your identity.

And now, the Conservative state I grew up in recently changed legislation to not require licensure to conceal carry. Which means less incentive for people to go through the proper, basic training for using their firearm responsibly.

I literally knew a guy in high school that was given his first shotgun, and he ended up shooting himself in the leg AND one of his nutsack (one nut had to be amputated, but the other was fine) because he was “showing his new gun off” for his friends.

These accidents become more common when people have easy access to guns without being trained to handle the damn things.

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Title	Gun Violence and School Shootings Mega-Thread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	22
Comments	948
Date	June 4, 2022 2:00 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/v4pgtr/gun_violence_and_school_shootings_megathread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/gun-violence-and-school-shootings-mega-thread.1117276 https://theredarchive.com/post/1117276

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