Real men have curves!

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Whether something effects how your body reacts to food means absolutely nothing on what I said, all it does is raise or lower the bar for weight gain/weight loss. Something may help you lose weight, because that's the exiting of materials from your body (could make you go to the bathroom more/lower water retention in the body or whatever, not that those sounds very healthy), but nothing can magically make you gain weight beyond taking in more calories than you burn off. Nothing you can say changes how matter works, your body can not create mass without a source material that you take in. If you burn off more of that source material than you consume, then guess what, you're losing weight, maybe not a significant amount depending on how much we're talking about, but you are.

EDIT: Extremely crude but pertinent example, there were no fat people in auschwitz, eating less (obviously in this example it's to an extreme degree but still) than you burn makes you lose weight no matter what, I don't care what your metabolism is.

And I mean hey, if you wanna keep lying to yourself to make yourself feel better, fine, I got no problem there. But don't push your bullshit on other people who might actually want to try to better themselves.

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That's not entirely true. Someone who body builds and then builds up fat for 6 months won't end up losing that much muscle mass. Once men reach 50, they typically lose 1% of their muscle mass per year. Before that, it's quite a bit lower(0.3% or something along those lines for a 20 something...I know, ^[citation ^needed] ).

The fact of the matter is, a young guy who puts on weight doesn't magically lose his muscles. It's just that you can't see his muscles as much any more, because they're covered in bulbous, amorphous fat. Even if he went back to a proper diet and only did cardio in order to reduce his fat, once he got back to his normal weight he would more or less be just as physically fit and muscular as before. Give or take 0.5%

Muscle memory was probably the wrong term, but I think the parent's post was trying to get to the point that the experiment didn't account for the fact that, as he got fatter, he didn't lose muscles.

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'muscle memory' is not a thing. what you're referring to is neurological development

NeuroDev is what I mean by MM. I don't literally mean tiny brains inside muscles, although there are reflexes that can perhaps be trained before going to spine, not sure.

accounts for (some) strength gains but has little to nothing to do with weight loss, improved muscle mass, etc.

If you can exert more force in a given amount of time, you can expend more energy (helping to lose weight) and create microtrauma faster (helping to initiate muscle building processes, if you have the nutrition) so I see it as an asset, not 'little to do'.

There is also, outside of neurological development, his own personal familiarity with various movements, machines and habits, which makes it easier than someone he is merely trying to convey them do.

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Where on earth did you get the idea that reducing your calorie intake can cause you to put on 50lbs of water weight? That's complete nonsense.

It isn't nonsense. Your body retains water and fat if it thinks it is going into a starvation state. For people doing certain types of weight loss regimens it can trigger what is known as the 'whoosh effect' where a person hits a weight loss plateau and looses a bit of weight overnight. It is also a big cause of distended bellies which can get massive in some cases. It's well known enough that I'm surprised you are acting like you are offended by the news. If a person has celiac disease they may also experience weight gain despite being unable to derive nutrients from food because they will begin retaining fluid. The amount of water you need to retain to gain 50 lbs isn't that much, but I am also a 6'7" person so my perspective is probably a bit skewed.

The specific mechanisms which cause water retention vary a bit but many of them have to do with elevated cortisol levels, something malnutrition causes.

Cushings is a rare disease, affecting 10-15 people per million, and its prevalence is linked to poor glucose control among people who already have type II diabetes and are obese. Hypothyroidism is more common, affecting up to 4.6% of adults, but it is also almost never responsible for the amount of weight gain required to become obese. Additionally, hypothyroidism is a very treatable disease, and thyroxine supplements can significantly reduce or eliminate most of the symptoms. Neither of these conditions comes close to accounting for the vast majority of obesity.

I've helped a friend out who has been dealing with cushings. He gained 400 lbs in about 3 months while eating ~1800 calories a day. Cushings causes weight gain through elevated levels of cortisol. High levels of cortisol is yet another cause of fluid retention.

Hypothyroidism may be easily treatable but it doesn't mean it is always diagnosed properly or at all.

Neither of these conditions comes close to accounting for the vast majority of obesity.

If you read what I wrote rather than going straight to histrionics you would note that I never denied caloric intake as a factor of obesity. My argument has consistently been that there are more causes of obesity than eating too much and exercising too little.

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What you mean is epigenetics. It has nothing to do with "muscle memory", which is a slang term for motorical processes the brain has formed special pathways for and thus don't have to be consciously controlled anymore.

I'm pretty sure I mean muscle memory. I've never heard of epigenetics... though it could be an additional process that could also contribute (perhaps moreso?) to explaining things.

Epigenetics includes the fact that genes that are used often will be folded less compactly and thus are more easily accessable to the body. So a body builder will have a way easier time to make proteins and build muscle than your average Joe.

That's pretty cool, perhaps that matters more than muscle memory, but I think muscle memory also matters too.

You can inherit these epigenetic traits. So if your father and/or mother were body builders, you will have a much easier time packing on muscles as well.

This sounds possibly Muad'Dibian so I am going to have to exercise some skepticism here.

Assuming that a parent used genes more often, I'm pretty certain these would be happening in our skeletal muscle DNA, ie our somatic cells. We reproduce with our sexual germ cells though. So why would the folding efficiency from soma translate to germ to pass it on to our young?

Parents being predisposed to better folding via germ DNA would pass on, but I don't think it would be acquirable through habit.

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Unilever is the company that owns Dove. They're one of those companies that makes like 100 different brands and employs an army of ad agencies to help sell it all.

This picture is funny. I'm not sure how well it works as a serious spite campaign, but it is funny.

Dove isn't typically geared towards men although they just did release a line of men's products.

Unilever makes AXE though, which is distinctly geared towards men.

Their body spray is just fast evaporating alcohol and a chemical scent. Using too much of it tends to dry out your skin.

Anyways, their commercial target men by portraying women as borderline sex-zombies who catch a whiff of their spray and suddenly can't resist mob groping the innocent young male 'victim'.

What pisses me off is that Unilever are nothing more than pandering dickheads who cause a lot of the negative perception stereotypes through their AXE campaigns, then turn around and sell positive perception 'cures' for women via Dove's natural beauty campaign.

Bunch of sneaky weasels personally who use guilt and shame to fuck with both genders to sell their crap.

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I think there is a difference between judging someone on their weight vs. their race or gender. A person cant control the latter while they have a choice to control the former. That identifying feature, as you call it, can and does speak to certain facets of their life.

If I had the choice between hiring a fit person or a fat person, then the fit person is going to get a leg up in the hiring process. Yes, the fat person may be a brilliant person with a great personality.... but being brilliant wont keep you from having a heart attack out in the manufacturing bay because they cant walk from station to station without needing to take a breather.

Our manufacturing bay has a lot of stairs. I've never once spec'd out stairs that were rated for "women", "men", or "black people only". They are always rated for weight. I cant have a fatty breaking my stairs while he tries to heave himself up onto a platform. Not only might he get injured, but he'll break my stairs in the process.

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Actually, I AM complaining about all those things, fundamentally. What I would wonder is why you think I shouldn't be complaining about those things...

But actually, I was responding to the idea of respecting women's body issues in the Dove campaign, literally "love your body." We aren't told to "love" men's fat bodies; men's fat is funny, a source of derision and (somehow) stupidity. The fact that many, if not most, men are a bit dumpy and pot-bellied and don't have dramatic swimmer physiques as Calvin Klein likes to show in his ads doesn't get a high five from a fucking soap commercial. Maybe it should--maybe women should respect men's bodies. But they don't, and nobody says they should. If anything, a woman who doesn't respect a man's dumpy bumpy body should be a called a pig. After all, a man who doesn't respect a woman's dumpy bumpy body is a pig. So why aren't more women pigs? Are you a pig?

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Soap commercials are reactionary? Yeah--that's not hyperbole at all. Dove commercials are not being directed at boys and men age 18-25, they're for the consumer group of dove products--mostly middle aged, possibly overweight women looking to beautify themselves. So the "love yourself" philosophy is both capitalistically and psychologically validating--love your body, love our products! Love your body WITH our products!

On the other hand, what are men supposed to "love" about Kevin James in King of Queens? His jolly stupid laugh? His inability to do the simplest of tasks? His (yes) hot wife, who nonetheless is better than him at everything he does? I'm trying to avoid hyperbole here, but I'm having trouble finding anything whatsoever to love about the UGLY GUY of the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope. Please--tell me exactly what we should love about the UGLY GUY, not about the unrealistically hot wife he is lucky to even share screen time with?

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[–]mean0dean0 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Complain about them in another thread. This one is a discussion on why the Dove commercials are not sexist.

Way to make me feel welcome in my own safe space! Unfortunately for you, this entire post is a discussion on why the Dove commercials ARE sexist, because men are taught to love women's imperfections, but society in general is taught to make fun of men's imperfections. My thought experiment of asking whether women's fat bodies can be used for comedic effect on a billboard illustrates the fact that women's bodies are a sacred cow in society, and it's taboo for anybody to insult or deride them without punishment/derogation. Maybe you should stop colonizing threads in order to spread ideas that aren't even warranted by the posts threads you're commenting in.

You should be complaining somewhere relevant. I never said any of those things are not issues.

Again, I feel so welcome! But here is what you said:

What does that have to do with anything? Are you just complaining that men's body issues don't have an ad campaign? About how it's OK to use a man as a target dummy but not a woman? Does that somehow make the Dove campaign misandric or something?

Disregarding the "just complaining" comment, YES--men's body issues don't have an ad campaign; YES, it's okay to use men's bodies for comedic/derogatory effect; and YES, the fact that the Dove "Love Your Body" campaign has no similar "Love His Body" campaign even though Dove has a complete line of products for men and even has sexist commercials to sell their products. One group of men have actually started their own version of the campaign for themselves in the hopes that it will spark more awareness about "real" men's beauty, the way it has spearheaded campaigns for women already.

Just because men can also have body insecurity issues, doesn't mean you can't market to positively to women with the same issues.

This is just special pleading--you're deliberately minimizing the overall societal impulse to deride men's body image in order to legitimize YET ANOTHER campaign upon all the other campaigns to increase awareness EVEN MORE about women's body issues. The largest feminist organization in the US is already covering this, not to mention numerous other groups and websites. If the "big problem" with my post is that Dove, who has spent millions of dollars reassuring women about their body image, and who has spent millions of dollars creating and manufacturing a line of skincare products for men, can't (or won't) take the time to reassure men about THEIR body image except in jest, then I'd say it's not MY problem at all. It's Dove's.

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Definitely. But fatness (upon first impressions) also says that person is too lazy to look after his/her own body. Most people (at least here in the West) don't find fatness attractive. Also, I find that women's definition of fat tend to differ to men's. I suppose you can say that we (in general) have a higher fat threshold, we like a larger variety of guys, and/or we're more tolerable. For example, a guy may see himself to be obese, but to some women, he's just husky. Compared to the muscular and slim guys, it's unlikely that a decent-looking not-so-easy girl would approach the fat guy at the bar, or would show interest if he approached her ...even if he's not a lazy fuck. Of course, we shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but we all know just by the first few seconds of looking at someone whether or not we're physically attracted to them.

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Ummm... he is not among the "top mma fighters". Go ahead and look at his record. His only "worthy" win, was against a washed up Cro Cop.

And his losses were against legitimate fighters who looked liked this...

http://www.mmajunkie.com/files/large/frank-mir-abs.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Junior_dos_Santos.jpg

http://www.criticalbench.com/images/JeffMonson3.jpg

http://i2.listal.com/image/1295965/600full-andrei-arlovski.jpg

http://www.realitycagecombat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/stipe.jpg

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You wanted to make some thisisthinprivilege kind of argument and everyone rejects it because its pants on head retarded.

You HAVE to be fucking trolling at this point. Meh, I'm bored so I may as well answer.

I wrote TWO SENTENCES about an overweight MMA fighter, and the fact that he can beat up underwear models (Do you still deny that?). Aaaaaaaand now you're saying I'm in the fat acceptance movement?

Here's what happened, buddy. I posted a comment about a fat jolly guy, who happens to be a pretty good fighter who can kick yours and my ass both. I thought it was funny, and so did people commenting - because this entire THREAD is pretty funny.

Then along come shitbags like you, who seem to argue that Roy Nelson MUST suck, because he doesn't look like a person who can fight. Yes. That is really what you guys are arguing here by implication. I just thought it was funny; you're the ones being completely serious trying to dispel some imaginary fatacceptance movement, that you think I've been spouting all along (When in fact, all I did was state a fun fact).

But here's the downlow, if you dare to actually (For once) stop reading between the lines: A fat dude who is an experienced fighter will most likely be able to beat someone who is ripped, but not an experienced fighter. That's just how it is. And it doesn't matter how much you hate whatever YOU THINK that fact represents, it's still more or less the truth. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else is glorifying fat people, it means this: I AM GLORIFYING PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUAL SKILL, IN SPITE OF HOW THEY LOOK.

Ok, that's all I'll bother writing for now. I think I'll go back to watching some sumo wrestling.

EDIT: Fuck, why can't I stop thinking about Susan Boyle? It's not like she's relevant here after all. She's probably a piss-poor fighter.

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This is a false equivalency and also wrong.

Seriously, how did you not know that Jewish people can also be people of a religion? Nazi's made no distinction, and still don't to this day (hence the "fighting the Jewification of our culture!" motto they throw around). Jews are a people from a location, much like people who are from Berlin are Berliner. As well as people of a certain religion, you can convert to Judaism, and you can also freely leave the religion.

To further illustrate why you're wrong let's travel back three decades and examine the tattoo culture. If you had tattoos you were a vagrant. It didn't matter how much of a nice guy you were, or how successful you were, or how smart you happened to be. You had tattoos? You were a vagrant. This is fact, this attitude still permeates America to this day and it is only recently that tattoos have stopped having a complete air of "trashiness" around them. Tattoos are a choice. In fact, they're even less reversible than being fat. Tattoos can cost you jobs. Tattoos can cause police to immediately assume you're from a specific group of people even if your tattoos have nothing to do with being in a gang. Don't believe me? A circumstance dealing with this very matter was front page'd on Reddit just last week.

Piercings are also the exact same thing. Body modification in general is seen as trashy but does not tell you anything about that person. We can continue to delve into this discussion as I can continue to offer examples of things that you probably don't have a problem with that are all voluntarily and can negatively impact someone's life simply because of gross bigotry on behalf of people like you.

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If you saw someone with all their teeth sharpened to a point might it unsettle you? If you saw someone so covered in piercings in that they looked like something from Warhammer might it unnerve you? If you saw someone with a beard that reached their feet might it fascinate you? If you passed by someone in a dark alleyway with a tattoo of knives on their face might you be intimidated? Well I find the image of rippling flesh unsettling. Different people having different reactions to different bodies? What is this? Taste?

you're just being dishonest because you're unable to admit I'm right because you're immature

At this point I'm pretty sure you're trollin' but for the sake of people who sincerely aren't getting this, the difference between what I think of outrageously toned and muscled bodies and what this guy reckons is going on is that he thinks I'm saying "Oh they disgust me!" like a Victorian housewife stepping over a tramp. What I'm actually saying is more like the standard response to any number of shock videos out there - there's no moral or objective implication, I just find it unsettling. If you find it attractive or want that body image for yourself then all the more power to you.

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Because it wouldn't be reddit without a healthy dose of fat-shaming.

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If by 'reality' you mean a bunch of smug assholes congregating together to stroke their own egos and organize downvote brigades against anyone who says something that threatens their feelings of superiority. Both those subs are the fat-shaming equivalent of SRS.

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Many feminists legitimately believe that how the female body is portrayed in advertisements and in the media is actually a way for the "patriarchy" to keep women feeling ashamed of their own bodies. They honestly think that it's a real, legitimate violation of their rights. This post just goes to show how ludicrous that line of thinking actually is.

If you look at most of the posts that get over 30 upvotes in /r/mensrights , the vast majority of posts are a discussion or an observation that is pertinent to what this subreddit is about. It just so happens that easily digestible content like this image get the most upvotes, but it's not very representative of what this subreddit is about (a phenomenon that is in no way unique to this subreddit).

But you're correct, nobody can say that anything is a violation of your rights when you can just decide to not give a fuck about it and it no longer affects your life.

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woosh

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I think you are confusing some of the terms. The anorexic ladies everyone refers to are the runway models that wear all those crazy clothes by French/Italian designers. Nobody thinks those women are attractive.

In contrast, a Vicoria's Secret model pretty much can't be anorexic because she's modelling bras and panties. When one is anorexic, they do not have much in the way of breasts or gluteal development, which isn't going to look flattering in lingerie, which in turn, won't sell a whole lot of lingerie.

I don't see why you would "feel like shit" whenever you see a VS model, but I'll tell you right now, they are not unhealthy. For some reason people think that <10% body fat on a female is unhealthy/anorexic, which it is not. If you feel bad about your body whenever you see someone who looks "better" than you, that's simply due to your own insecurities and feeling sorry for yourself. Try being proactive; exercise hard and eat right. That's probably what the VS model does.

[–]GoForCody 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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I think I've been phrasing what I say incorrectly... I don't mean anorexic, I mean that models are RARELY above a size 6, any more and they are considered "plus-size" models, so although they are "healthy" to an extent (not all models ARE healthy), they are still extremely tiny. I think most girls are upset that their average body size/body type doesn't fulfill the "beautiful, model girl" that guys are attracted to. It's hard seeing beautiful women like that all the time, constantly bombarded by what women should look like or what men find attractive, because most women affected by that are growing girls who are susceptible to that kind of pressure.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT GIRLS SHOULD BE CONFIDENT IF THEY ARE FAT AND COVER IT UP BY SAYING THEY ARE CURVY, I'm saying I think this comparison picture is unfair although it had a good idea.

I'm no feminist, trust me.

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While you make a valid point, the way you make it kills the message. That message is that overweight and out of shape people of any of the genders are unattractive, and attempting to cover it up by claiming some new paradigm of attractiveness does not change this acculturation.

Yes the entire notion of "curves" when applied to overweight and obese people is preposterous. There are women who are naturally curvy, but that has less to do with being overweight and more to do with many very real structural differences.

There is no way for males to send the equivalent message since the male body is inherently less attractive than the female body when compared to idealized visions. There are idealized overweight women in the "BBW" community. But there is no such thing as a BHM (Big Handsome Man) regarding overweight men.

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[+]KwG_TwiTCh 12 years ago* [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

Not every single post has to be serious serious stuff, im sorry if you deem this little comic to not be serious enough but what you may be overlooking slightly is the point behind the comic is a issue which needs to be addressed, Men are held to a much Higher yard stick in terms of what is deemed to be attractive via the media and corporations. To achieve a body as shown on the left you need to work out 4-5 times a week, need to be constantly dieting and is a complete lifestyle choice which takes years and years to perfect. whereas for a female to achieve what is deemed to be attractive via media/corporations she would need to diet and do minimal exercise. Essentially Women have the easier goal here and yet they are able to campaign that "real women have curves" etc, yet in contrast where many men feel society's views on them that to feel attractive, they need to be in some way or the other muscular. I for one have experienced that first on, as growing up I wasn't exactly the thinnest of children, and as a consequence I had little to no self-confidence. I felt the need to exercise and drop the weight due to the perfect ideals planted onto society. Essentially the message is, if woman can express themselves to be pro all shapes and sizes why is it so ridiculous that men do the same

[+]frehop 12 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a subreddit for stuff like this: r/mensrants. It was made to divert a lot of the funny/meme stuff to prevent this place from becoming like r/atheism.

IMO, your post would have been better if you had taken what you just said in that comment and put it in a self post. It would have appeared as if you were trying to start a discussion rather than get a laugh/karma, so you would not have gotten complaints.

[–]KwG_TwiTCh1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]enj726 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]KwG_TwiTCh 12 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with you completely! the point is showing the hypocrisy here, where woman are allowed to induce "fat acceptance" whereas men are shunned for being overweight. I'm not saying that men should have the same thing with fat acceptance, I'm saying there is a significant issue here with gender equality. also lastly just to say about myself I live a healthy lifestyle now, I gym three times a week and avoid all random crap for you bar the odd beer here and there and I eat relatively healthy

[–]enj726 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad to hear that you are taking care of your self. I'm sure you have noticed the positive changes that come with a healthy lifestyle. As men, we should strive to rise above the cry for "fat acceptance." We recognize that unhealthy women yearn for an excuse for their unhealthy lifestyles. However, this should not be reason enough to encourage the same acceptance among men. We should lead our fellow gender, not follow their poor example.

I say we cast aside the notion that it is alright to be unhealthy. Women are coddled by the media, and told by daytime TV that they should be proud of their fat. A national movement toward fitness is badly needed. A country of obese, unhealthy individuals weighs down (pun intended) our health care system, and has been classified as a national security risk.

Our generation should set an example for the young, and encourage healthy lifestyle choices. I've had way too much coffee.

EDIT: Also I appreciate you pointing out the hypocrisy. I thought the original image was funny, although the underlying theme concerned me. Best wishes... upvotes all around.

[+]Dabakus 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ejp1082 -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Men are held to a much Higher yard stick in terms of what is deemed to be attractive via the media and corporations. To achieve a body as shown on the left you need to work out 4-5 times a week, need to be constantly dieting and is a complete lifestyle choice which takes years and years to perfect. whereas for a female to achieve what is deemed to be attractive via media/corporations she would need to diet and do minimal exercise.

The guy on the left isn't conventionally attractive, isn't what the media deems attractive, nor is it what most women find attractive (on a purely physical level). None of these guys look like that.

The formula for men and women is basically the same. Have a proportional, symmetrical body (something you're born with or not, unfortunately). Be physically fit, which means regular exercise and maintain a healthy diet. Use skin and hair care products, and groom yourself.

But the fact is that women do have it harder, as their bodies are more likely to store fat, making it harder to lose and harder to keep off.

There's a valid point to be made about double standards when it comes to "fat acceptance" and the social pressures on men to look a certain way. But it's ridiculous to assert that men are held to a higher standard or have it harder when it comes to looks.

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[+]KwG_TwiTCh 12 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

okay look at it this way, If I would of brought this issue displayed in the image up in a text post, most likely this would of been ignored. Okay yes comics aren't necessarily the most serious of media, but don't take this at face value there is a message behind this which needs addressing, this was meant to incite discussion not to be a HUR DUHH I HATE FEMANAZI'S post

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[–]KwG_TwiTCh0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

(copied this reply from elsewhere as im not gunna type the essential same thing twice) Not every single post has to be serious serious stuff, im sorry if you deem this little comic to not be serious enough but what you may be overlooking slightly is the point behind the comic is a issue which needs to be addressed, Men are held to a much Higher yard stick in terms of what is deemed to be attractive via the media and corporations. To achieve a body as shown on the left you need to work out 4-5 times a week, need to be constantly dieting and is a complete lifestyle choice which takes years and years to perfect. whereas for a female to achieve what is deemed to be attractive via media/corporations she would need to diet and do minimal exercise. Essentially Women have the easier goal here and yet they are able to campaign that "real women have curves" etc, yet in contrast where many men feel society's views on them that to feel attractive, they need to be in some way or the other muscular. I for one have experienced that first on, as growing up I wasn't exactly the thinnest of children, and as a consequence I had little to no self-confidence. I felt the need to exercise and drop the weight due to the perfect ideals planted onto society. Essentially the message is, if woman can express themselves to be pro all shapes and sizes why is it so ridiculous that men do the same

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This is the Fit2Fat2Fit guy, check him out. He put on a whole bunch of weight just to show people how to loose it. It's incredible.

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Real men have curves!

Comments

1053 Ten Thousand

Title	Real men have curves!
Author	KwG_TwiTCh
Upvotes	1989
Comments	624
Date	August 13, 2013 12:07 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1k9ual/real_men_have_curves/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/real-men-have-curves.1166505 https://theredarchive.com/post/1166505