CMV When a man doesn’t want a child but a woman still gives birth, a man should be cleared of the financial responsibility

Varyx · 2024-04-20T22:29:27+00:00

The argument that a man ejaculating is equivalent with pregnancy and birthing health risks is not a fair one. Pro choice exists in part because babies don’t grow in a vacuum, they grow in another human being who will generally have health consequences (minor or major) as a result.

It’s well and good to say “create ways to support the child”, but realistically the only ways most people have to do that is government funding. Either you would have to be all in on every man and woman in society with a job supporting single parent children, which seems even less fair, or ask the person who is biologically half of them to do so. There’s no secret third option where we withdraw monetary support and women work it out; that leads to generational suffering and societal issues that are the antithesis of what I believe government was formed for.

Slipthe · 2024-04-20T20:04:44+00:00

Verbal agreements don't hold water.

Lol if a man gets it notarized before having sex with a woman that he will not financially support any offspring, sure, that should be sufficient for court. Quite the buzzkill, though, isn't it?

Anything short of that seems easily falsifiable.

Defundisraelnow · 2024-04-20T20:05:46+00:00

Abortion is a special case because pregnancy involves a woman consenting to have her body used to grow a child. It's not about responsibility once the child is born. Men don't have their bodily autonomy taken away through parenthood. Once his child exists, he should have to support it.

Bekiala · 2024-04-20T20:27:29+00:00

Men have the simplest access to permanent sterility. Any man who wants neither children nor celibacy should get a vasectomy. If he doesn't he must take the consequences.

Also it is for the best in society if children are cared for and don't live in poverty.

Germanaboo · 2024-04-20T20:59:37+00:00

I would rather a biological father pay for a child than for society via taxes.

velvetalocasia · 2024-04-20T20:16:03+00:00

So if you and I each drive a car and get into an accident…..should I be free of paying for damages, if I state that I wanted no part in the accident?

wtknight · 2024-04-20T20:07:05+00:00

An uintended pregnancy is something a man should always consider before choosing to have sex. The harms are greater for allowing financial abortion than they are for asking men to be sexually and financially responsible.

Solondthewookiee · 2024-04-20T20:36:01+00:00

Abortion is for a fetus, child support is for a child. Neither parent can unilaterally discharge their support obligations to a child because the needs of a child supersede what either parent wants.

Women have the option for an abortion because they are affected and burdened by pregnancy in a way men are not.

Sad_and_grossed_out · 2024-04-20T20:01:55+00:00

If men are gonna kick scream cry throw up slide down the wall about paying for their kids existence then I'm into the idea of women just aborting every pregnancy that happens from here on out. Men on this forum constantly complain about the low birth rates and child free women, but they sure don't want to parent or pay for the next generation themselves.

If they don't care why should women shoulder the responsibility of giving a fuck? Quit pushing kids on these men ladies, they don't want them.

blebbyroo · 2024-04-20T20:20:14+00:00

I disagree because at the end of the day of a child is born that child has needs and as a society we generally think a child’s needs should come first over its parents wants. I.e parents who ‘want’ to live a child free lifestyle aren’t able to because they are responsible for bringing a life into the world and must ensure it’s cared for.

Abortion is seperate to child Support because it deals with pregnancy not with a live child. Women have the option of ending pregnancy in most places in the world because the pregnancy is within her body. Once it’s out and it’s considered a child that child then has rights.

DietTyrone · 2024-04-20T20:24:08+00:00

It’s such a complicated and difficult question to answer. But ultimately.. what affects the situation the most is the wellbeing of the subsequent child. The child didn’t ask to be born and will only be a functional adult if it’s raised well. If a man took the risk to have a child…. He should have to make sure that human being had a good childhood. There’s no other way that works. If you don’t want kids.. don’t fuck. Otherwise you’re accepting the risks.

And that does mean making sure you don’t fuck a woman who wouldn’t get an abortion if something did accidentally happen. Id get an abortion 100% no matter what the father said. Im a safer option for men who would rather die than pay child support. My best friend doesn’t believe in abortion and would never… she’s not a safe option

Economy-Shake-1448 · 2024-04-20T20:47:05+00:00

I think the government should incentivize being a single mom and provide things like universal free childcare, universal housing, UBI, free food, etc. I am not even joking. So many men complain about how they don’t want to financially support their kids that this will absolve them of that responsibility.

Demasii · 2024-04-20T20:28:30+00:00

men are responsible for 100% of unwanted pregnancies

It's 50%

If she gives birth, he pays 50% and she pays 50%.

If she aborts, they both pay zero.

But are not these arguments the same prolifers use to justify abortion bans? Aka she should have kept her legs closed.

Getting pregnant and getting someone else pregnant are two different actions. Due to biological inequality, men and women can never be on an equal footing on this issue.

Sharp_Engineering379 · 2024-04-20T22:06:18+00:00

Doesn’t matter how anyone feels, elected officials and their constituents decided long ago that when possible: extract child support from responsible parties, whether male or female, to avoid taxpayer liability whenever possible.

And you know who are the loudest advocates of avoiding government support of impoverished children? You guessed it. The very men who demand to be absolved of financial responsibility.

Peculiar dilemma, ain’t it? Haters of public assistance demanding the right to consequence free sex.

Troublen421 · 2024-04-20T21:03:31+00:00

Utlimately this is just a simple - "it's unreasonable to be celibate, but there is ALWAYS a risk" sort of stance.

some things in life - are technically unfair, and this is one them, that unfortunately should not be changed since protection of children is priority #1.

even though it's a shitty situation - the only foolproof not have sex (as a women could SAY she doesnt want kids / be on birth control / etc. then CHANGE her mind, and you'd be still on the hook).

the ONE thing I'm completely against is the "deadbeat" dad stigma that exists for men who did not want children but are in this situation. Let's say you are in the rare case that a women re-negs on abortion/adoption after the conversation happens. you should NOT be called a "deadbeat" for not wanting to be involved.

Select_Self_6377 · 2024-04-20T21:41:13+00:00

You can already do this, its just a very complicated and difficult process. I know someone who did this.

NaviaMain · 2024-04-21T16:47:24+00:00

Get a vasectomy.

Bekiala · 2024-04-21T19:25:25+00:00

Women can abort a child without even consulting the father

She can give it up for adoption without consulting the father

But if she keeps it then he pays

Seems pretty asymmetrical

If my GF aborted my child without discussing it with me, I would leave and never speak to her again

Funny that women rarely discuss these things that work in their advantage

Most probably think “well of course I should be able to abort my LTRs child without telling him and he would be wrong to be upset” because women don’t realize it when they are being self absorbed

Safinated · 2024-04-22T01:14:08+00:00

We used to do that, and it was not economically or socially efficient

nytnaltx · 2024-04-22T18:04:21+00:00

What if, instead of all these questions, we said, what’s in the best interest of children?

It’s certainly not wise to conceive children outside of a stable, committed relationship. Ideally marriage. So don’t have sex with someone you wouldn’t want to parent with. And if you choose to, use at least 2 forms of contraception, one of which should be IUD/nexplanon. Or permanent sterilization.

If a child is conceived, the child’s best interest is to be healthy and grow up in a loving home. It is not to be aborted or killed. Therefore abortion should not be considered an option except in cases where it poses a medically determined serious threat to the mother’s well being. Unwanted children can be given for adoption.

Men AND women should take responsibility for the lives created by their voluntary sexual behaviors. Women, firstly by not aborting their child as a way of “eliminating the issue” and men by stepping up to the plate to be present, or at a bare minimum financially supportive.

This is nothing groundbreaking. Definitely don’t want kids? Get sterilized. If you have sex and make a kid, there is no undo button (a certain Juno quote comes to mind).

But of course, taking responsibility is not everyone’s strong suit, and therefore we have plenty of men and women selfishly and irresponsibly engaging in sex, simultaneously aghast that they should be held accountable for the consequences of their actions.

Any woman who supports freedom of elective abortion of normal, viable pregnancies is problematic and right there alongside deadbeat dads. Except you don’t just check out of your child’s life, you’d happily kill it to spare yourself the inconvenience. Monsters.

Obvious_Smoke3633 · 2024-04-20T21:44:42+00:00

When a man doesn't want a child, by the time he has impregnated a woman, he has lost his choice. Due to biology, men's window to choose is before & during sex. Once you deposit your genetic material in a woman, you've rolled the dice. Men can wear condoms, get vasectomy, abstain from sex, or stop having sex with women who you are not on the same page about pregnancy and children. Everyone knows that sex can lead to pregnancy it's a risk you take. If you can't handle the possible consequences, then you should not partake in the activity. 50 to 60 years ago, men would be expected to marry the woman and support her financially until the day she dies. Child support is already the compromise.

bluepvtstorm · 2024-04-20T20:12:27+00:00

Having sex is an implied contract that should a child occur and termination cannot be agreed upon that both parents will bear responsibility.

Only in cases of deception like holes punched in condoms or retrieval of sperm from a condom should a man be absolved from paying child support.

I am 100% childfree and won’t have kids but also know that sex could potentially create a child. If you don’t want children, don’t have sex.

Dankutoo · 2024-04-20T21:05:54+00:00

If a person causes car crash by their reckless driving, but didn't "want" to cause a car crash....then they're off the hook, right?

What nonsense....

ExcelsiorState718 · 2024-04-20T20:19:45+00:00

I disagree ..the man shouldn't have busted all up in her after that it's out of his hands

ezbyte · 2024-04-20T22:53:41+00:00

Some men would literally nut in every woman they could, in efforts to have as many kids as possible, and then relinquish their rights for every single one.

SwimmingTheme3736 · 2024-04-21T04:45:30+00:00

The problem with that is it’s the child that will suffer

I do think ppl need to start being a lot more careful who they have children with.

I have always said to the older children when in a sexual relationship think long and hard if you want this person to be the other parent to your vhild

GlamSunCrybabyMoon · 2024-04-21T05:01:07+00:00

And what happens with serial baby fathers who keep getting women pregnant and saying “not it !” To avoid responsibility?

No one cares about the circumstances about how the child came about or if they were wanted or not. If you have an existing living breathing child, you are responsible for them. No amount of not wanting them is going to make their needs nonexistent.

I don’t support the idea because the fathers can easily come looking for a relationship when the child becomes an adult so they can try and benefit from someone they never contributed to. Which is a reality for many people.

Dapper-Shopping2840 · 2024-04-20T20:32:52+00:00

No. He should pay.

In my country - and in many conventions of international law there is a principle - "best interest of the child". It means that some things you enact can be unjust as long as they protect the child - cuz they obv can't protect themselves.

If you are dumb enough as a dude to pump up a woman- in year 2024. with all the contraception available - im sorry - but you are going to take care of that child, and I don't care if you like it or not. You will not just dump it on society to pay for you raw dogging somebody. Children are not a game and you are fucking adult. We are not going to collectively pay for your mistakes - nor should that child pay for them by being destitute.

I don't care is it fair to you or not. It's not fair to all of us to pay for your offspring - nor is it fair to that poor thing you took for granted. And if woman doesn't want to get abortion - it's her body, she has autonomy over it. So either be smart and reasonable or pay for your stupidity.

Direct-Alternative70 · 2024-04-20T20:48:56+00:00

Please space out your paragraphs man. Geez.

The money is for the child. If you make a child and the child is born you need to pay for it. You don’t carry the fetus so you don’t have the opportunity to get rid of the child and because you don’t have the physical needs to hold the child you have automatic responsibility to it.

Objective_Ad_6265 · 2024-04-20T20:08:17+00:00

Ï agree and the rules should somewhat mirror the rules for abortion with exceptions to prolong the deadline in case she told him too late on purpose. If she also finds out too late it's too bad for both. But there should be some exceptions to prevent women hiding the fact until it's too late and messing with contraception on purpose. And if a man wants to do it he should pay the women half of the cost of abortion.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-04-20T22:43:02+00:00

there should be no such thing as out of wedlock paternity at all, no marriage, no father no paternal rights or responsibilities. period. also, no welfare

GGMcThroway · 2024-04-20T23:16:08+00:00

What's stopping a man from bouncing after the gestation reaches a point where the woman can no longer legally abort?

What's stopping a man from bouncing once the baby is born?

I do think that this is part of why there shouldn't be any gestation limit on abortion, though.

OtPayOkerSmay · 2024-04-21T03:49:17+00:00

I used to agree with this sentiment. However...

The reason this debate is happening is because women can weaponize the ability to produce children for cash and prizes to subsidize their own lifestyles.

I don't think men should be completely off the hook from child support since the man did accept the risk of conception by engaging in sex; but I do believe there should be an upper limit to child support. Limiting child support to ensure that the funds are used solely on the child disincentivizes women from abusing this system, and incentivizes women to look for men that actually want families.

RAZBUNARE761 · 2024-04-20T20:08:30+00:00

It depend how it happens for me. If both are aware its not safe sex it meant they take that risk then you risk getting her pregnant. You need to man up and take your responsibility then since you cant force her to abort.

However if a guy gets babytricked then he should be cleared of the financial responsibility. Problem is you cant prove it.

Also imagine if you live where abortion isnt allowed. And the guy lies about condoms and put holes innit to knock you up. Would you consider it fair if he didnt have to pay up atleast? If yes then it also applies to guys that get babytricked.

Zabadoodude · 2024-04-20T21:43:54+00:00

If you have a kid, you're responsible for them.

Women are the ones getting pregnant. They have to deal with pregnancy and childbirth or abortion happening to their bodies. That's not fair, but it's just a consequence of our different biology. One of the few upsides to having to deal with this is that women have one more opportunity to terminate an unwanted pregnancy than men do. That seems reasonable to me.

womandatory · 2024-04-20T22:18:11+00:00

Children have a right to be cared for and supported by both parents. He doesn’t want a kid? - have a wank instead; - get a vasectomy and/or use contraception; - and above all, don’t have sex with women you don’t know and trust to make joint decisions.

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MyHouseOnMars- · 2024-04-20T21:52:46+00:00

This doesn't work because there's no way to prof when and how she found out she was pregnant.

If she wants you to be a father she will just not tell the guy until it's too late for abortion.

obviousredflag · 2024-04-22T10:08:38+00:00

Just pretend to not know about the pregnancy until it's too late to abort. What now?

child0light · 2024-04-20T20:35:16+00:00

This debate is tricky. Both people weren't careful making a very, very expensive thing. I think in some cases the man should be relieved of that burden. Like if he was manipulated, if there's texts saying I NEVER WANT KIDS, if she sabotaged protection, etc. There should be arbitration for that to legally document a man's abdication.

But everyone involved in making the expensive thing knew the risks and still neglected to be careful. I have no pity for ignoring risks.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-04-20T21:35:35+00:00

Should the woman be cleared of financial responsibility if she doesn't want it?

damageddude · 2024-04-20T21:40:02+00:00

Don't want to do the time, don't do the crime. Someone is going to have to pay to help raise the child. Bio dad > over Joe taxpayer. Don't like it, get yourself snipped and have fun.

Zombombaby · 2024-04-20T22:00:33+00:00

If he doesn't want kids then he can get a vasectomy. Otherwise, unless it's rape or sexual coercion, then he's just as responsible as the other participant.

alebruto · 2024-04-20T22:07:20+00:00

The responsibility is with the child and not with the sexual partner. Neither the father nor the mother should be exempt from their obligations towards the child. Using abortion as a justification for paternal abandonment is wrong, because two wrongs do not make a right, especially against the same victim (the child) If it were legal for women to practice pedophilia, should they legalize the practice for men too?

FluoroBadger · 2024-04-20T23:05:56+00:00

The problem with this is the person who pays the price is the child. The father may not have wanted the child, the mother may be a shitty person, but the child is innocent and should not pay the price, so regardless both the mother and father should be forced to have parental responsibility. Comparing abortion to the abandonment of parental rights isn’t the same, the only comparison would be that if the father can do that then the mother should be able to give birth and then abandon the child onto the dad and not pay for anything either or go on the birth certificate and leave her parental responsibility. Both are wrong, BOTH parents should have to have some responsibility for the child.

ConsciousFood201 · 2024-04-20T23:15:44+00:00

When a woman doesn’t want a child but has one anyway, she is not cleared of financial responsibility just because she leaves the babe with dad and peace’s out.

There are two discussions you are conflating. The decision to have a child physically and the decision to care for said child once it is born.

Mom gets to make one choice and neither party gets a say in the second one. If babe is born, both parents are involved in its financial burden.

End of discussion. Not that difficult.

Ok-Remove3693 · 2024-04-20T23:55:05+00:00

That’s crazy, the child still needs financial stability regardless of the man’s feelings. He shouldn’t be nutting it someone if he didn’t want kids. Maybe vasectomy?

pieperson5571 · 2024-04-21T05:44:11+00:00

When we consider body autonomy, we are talking about authority. Whoever has authority has the responsibility. If a man has responsibility, he has authority over autonomy. Body autonomy is exactly that, full authority to carry or abort. Full authority equals full responsibility.

Critical_Corner_1859 · 2024-04-21T06:56:45+00:00

If a dude doesn't want a child he can wrap it or get snipped.

why punish the child? When one side doesn't pay child support that's directly punishing a child for what their mother and father did. That'd be unfair.

Expensive-Tea455 · 2024-04-20T22:42:25+00:00

Men who don’t want children should be taking measures to prevent a pregnancy from occurring… if they’re not doing that, then they should not be acting surprised when a baby comes into the picture 😬

Sadsad0088 · 2024-04-20T23:15:21+00:00

When men will have an equal risk in pregnancy and child bearing then they will have the same rights.

Nature and our bodies aren’t equal, and that means that if a woman chooses to keep the child the man who contributed to making the child has to pay.

gymrattttz · 2024-04-20T20:08:23+00:00

Don't do this in Texas 🤠 Bro wont even get a chance to say a word to the judge . 20% pretax income to the baby mama

Nellylocheadbean · 2024-04-20T21:32:33+00:00

I think if that’s the case, He should have to pay an upfront lump sum hefty fee that’s relative to the man’s income (ex: if a man makes 50k he should have like a 15k fee that’s split between the state and the mother) along with signing over his rights.

There has to be some sort of consequence from the man’s side. He shouldn’t be able to walk away scotch free.

howdoiw0rkthisthing · 2024-04-20T22:00:20+00:00

I’m not opposed to financial abortion. Most single moms take on the brunt of the responsibility anyway so I don’t really see it changing much.

Wicked-sister · 2024-04-20T23:49:12+00:00

In a fair society with ubi this would not be a problem. Until then, the dude was dumb enough to bust a nut but then proclaims he didn't want to be a parent, yeah cry me a fucking river.

Wrap it up or stfo

Something-bothersome · 2024-04-21T00:01:12+00:00

We will then need to completely change view from determining a law that prioritises what is best for the child (financial support) to what is best for the adults involved. The downhill run from that decision will be enormous.

If he is not willing to take financial responsibility he will need to apply to the courts to have all rights and responsibilities to the child severed and it needs to be done within a time frame that she can still have an abortion. She needs to know if she will have financial support as it is part of her decision making on whether to abort or not. He will therefore be making a major decision that is irreversible in a very short timeframe.

She may also want to undertake the court process because she is only willing to have the child if she has sole legal rights, bypassing the hassle of joint custody and not having to negotiate with the biological father for 18 years might be extremely attractive to her. That opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans. There is a bunch of “baby mamas” out there that would love to get rid of their non paying baby daddies and the resulting back and forth court attendances.

If he is too young to make the decision, then an adult must make it for him. If his parents won’t make the decision, the courts must appoint someone to make it for him. The decision to sever all rights and responsibilities must be applied throughout his side of the family - so his parents don’t have any legal claim to the child (grandparent rights).

You also need to enforce the laws. If he agrees to pay and we are prioritising the agreement between the adults involved (rather than to the relationship and his rights to his biological offspring), then he defaulting financially is a wrong directly to her. We no longer need to fuss about the biological father’s relationship to the child, we can tie his rights to the child directly to payment - as was the intent of the law. That is going to get very nasty.

CatchPhraze · 2024-04-21T04:32:25+00:00

So then who pays for the child should the mother not be able, an abortion relives the state of fiscal responsibility for an unwanted child. But single parent providership increases it. Do we let it starve? do we pay for the child despite it being between the two if them?
For biology to be hypocrisy we'd have to give men drugs that caused cramping and bleeding from their genitals for a week a month for 30-40 years. Any of them wanting to become parents would have to have their genitals ripped into their anuss and hooked up to machines that would kick their organs and bladders for 4 months.

Then and only then would abortion be unfair. But men likely would not trade these definite pains for the potential to possibly need to have a fiscal abortion. Biology isn't fair but men get off very easy in regards to reproduction.

cloudnymphe · 2024-04-20T23:00:58+00:00

I’m not against the argument in favor of financial abortion hypothetically. The main issue I see pragmatically though is that in a world where we remove any incentive for men to be responsible, the burden on women to get men to agree to use protection or to not remove condoms without consent would significantly increase.

Considering this is already a problem even when men are on the hook for child support, its reasonable to assume this would get worse if now only women had an inherent incentive to avoid potentially pregnancy (because of the psychical affects) but now men didn’t have any at all. The consequences for women and society due to the rise of unwanted pregnancies may outweigh the benefits.

The only thing I can think of that would offset this would be if you put the burden on the man prior to sex to get his partner to sign something saying he’s not responsible for pregnancy. That way there’s still some responsibility on men to be responsible and avoid getting someone pregnant if he doesn’t want to try and get her to sign the contract.

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