I see a lot of "call outs" where women wish men would share their emotions more, and now men are pushing back saying when they do, it's weaponized against them. What's the healthy balance?

no_usernameeeeeee · 2022-07-05T20:00:18+00:00

We construct a culture where male pain can have no voice, where male hurt cannot be named or healed. It is not just men who do not take their pain seriously. Most women do not want to deal with male pain if it interferes with the satisfaction of female desire. When feminist movement led to men’s liberation, including male exploration of “feelings,” some women mocked male emotional expression with the same disgust and contempt as sexist men. Despite all the expressed feminist longing for men of feeling, when men worked to get in touch with feelings, no one really wanted to reward them. In feminist circles men who wanted to change were often labeled narcissistic or needy. Individual men who expressed feelings were often seen as attention seekers, patriarchal manipulators trying to steal the stage with their drama.

When I was in my twenties, I would go to couples therapy, and my partner of more than ten years would explain how I asked him to talk about his feelings and when he did, I would freak out. He was right. It was hard for me to face that I did not want to hear about his feelings when they were painful or negative, that I did not want my image of the strong man truly challenged by learning of his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Here I was, an enlightened feminist woman who did not want to hear my man speak his pain because it revealed his emotional vulnerability. It stands to reason, then, that the masses of women committed to the sexist principle that men who express their feelings are weak really do not want to hear men speak, especially if what they say is that they hurt, that they feel unloved. Many women cannot hear male pain about love because it sounds like an indictment of female failure. Since sexist norms have taught us that loving is our task whether in our role as mothers or lovers or friends, if men say they are not loved, then we are at fault; we are to blame.

...

I did not want to hear the pain of my male partner because hearing it required that I surrender my investment in the patriarchal ideal of the male as protector of the wounded. If he was wounded, then how could he protect me?

Quotes from the book “The will to change” by bell hooks

This book was written a while ago but when i read this, as a woman - i realized that this is a reality that most of us ignore and fail to grasp. For me, reading this book is really what changed the game for me, it explained very well the many ways in which women harm men emotionally, even if they claim we want more emotions out of men. I think we’ve obviously gotten better as a society when it comes to mental health, and being welcoming of vulnerable emotions in general but there are still so many men who experience this. The book offers some great alternatives to this issue but i don’t know how long this can realistically take and how much men and women are truly open to such change but i encourage anyone - men and women to read this book. Although it’s not a recent book and some subjects may not be super relevant for today, it still provides so much information on a subject that isn’t talked about enough.

remmmmmmmi · 2022-07-05T20:32:00+00:00

Sorry, but I have heard too many stories of girlfriends telling their bfs who came fresh from the war to open up about their experience and feelings and 2 months later she "does not feel the spark anymore", because it just so happens

-passepar2t- · 2022-07-05T18:24:43+00:00

Do women even still tell men to share their feels? I thought that was greatly exaggerated and/or a relic of the past.

NockerJoe · 2022-07-05T18:24:27+00:00

The reality isn't that its just a turn off. There are women who will activley use literally anything against you in a relationship and see no problem with this. Its not just that some women lose attraction or respect, but that even if they don't a lot of women will freely say fucked up shit about your grandma's death or the time your dog got run over just to hurt you if they feel like it and they see zero problem with this, and that percentage of the population is bigger than you'd think.

Women will talk up all kinds of shit about men being a potential threat but this is the revsrse. After a while many men learn to essentially treat all guns as if they're loaded in the same way, because unlike the average woman if a man becomes a victim of abuse he has no resources and can expect no real help.

ruboyuri · 2022-07-05T18:37:09+00:00

Women can be sexist too

2022-07-05T19:18:58+00:00

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abaxeron · 2022-07-05T19:25:38+00:00

What's the healthy balance?

To first of all admit that men do show emotions; women are just terrible at reading them. I experienced personally women not noticing that I was:

energetic, tired, sleepy, horny, sympathetic, bored, depressed, happy, sad, crying, physically hurt and in pain, sick and was about to throw up. The last two also by female medical professionals.

Upon reaching the age 25 or so, I just started verbalizing whatever was relevant and happening to me, because I understood that women had zero ability to read my face and body.

inb4 "Well it's not a woman thing, maybe your face is ju-"

The day I lost my virginity, it took my (male) dorm roomie 2 seconds to understand I had sex recently. In the military, when I once got emotional watery eyes during the evening checkup, outside, after sunset, my top sergeant noticed it from another side of the formation.

No. Just, No.

Unique_Suspect8711 · 2022-07-05T18:40:24+00:00

Um rephrase it.

Women have double standards that society approves that when they are emotional or crying its who they are but if men do it they are unattractive.

For once it gives the narrative that women are immature. Secondly, suicide rates among men are so high because its shameful to express human emotions like sadness, despair or cry about it.

Women don’t have or were never thought emotional capacity for a men to be able to share what they feel. Men do, they are the archetypical unemotional rock. Side note, if you bottle up emotions, can’t share it with a partner good luck having a meaningful long term relationship that’s not transactional where kids continue their parents flaws.

Btw. When you’re clinically depressed and say just lost a job good luck maintaining a frame.

To sum up, the answer is : teach ppl how to emotionally available and how to regulate emotions

Paranoidexboyfriend · 2022-07-05T22:09:51+00:00

The problem here is that there are misaligned incentives and you can mostly predict behavior by incentives.

Women can say that they’re OK with men expressing negative emotions, But frankly a man that is sad, annoyed, depressed or down is going to make a woman feel an emotion that kills libido. The man sees less sex which is the ultimate incentive to most men, So now the man has learned not to show negative emotions.

But then look at the other side of the equation. What is the reward for a woman who does listen to a man who is down depressed or sad and encourages him to express his feelings? Usually since men have so much back issues pent up the woman is rewarded with a lot more sad depressed emotional diatribes. That’s not a reward. But a woman who ignores men that are sad usually gets rewarded with men generally only expressing positive feelings to them, which is nice.

Behavior is governed by incentives. Behavior that is rewarded you’ll see more of, And behavior that is punished you’ll see less of. Women can get away with ignoring men’s emotional problems, because there is no punishment for the behavior. Men are so thirsty they won’t walk away from a woman who doesn’t listen to their emotions. Instead they’ll change to continue having sexual access.

Men could change women’s behavior by punishing it but we’re so damn desperate and thirsty that we won’t. Rich hot men could also change women’s behavior If they valued a woman’s listening and emotional support over her body and hotness, but they won’t, because sex is the priority.

Joelypoely88 · 2022-07-05T22:01:35+00:00

For relationships specifically, as others say generally the man is perceived as an emotional anchor by the woman. If you encounter a personal issue and start to feel anxious and emotionally unbalanced, she very often will too. At that point she might act out a bit. She doesn't consciously mean to hurt you, your own confusion negatively affects her and can make her question her choice of partner. When you've found a partial solution to your problem and feel somewhat back to normal, she very well may fully accept you again. So yes sadly there seems to be an instinctual bias against men showing negative emotions, especially anxiety or depression.

2022-07-05T22:18:56+00:00

Your wife probably sees you, and will always see you as the rock. A rock to hold on to, especially in rought times.

I guess, what women want to say with "emotionally" is that the husband speaks out his love for his wife. That he doesn't keep it inside him but also shares it with her. Even if she knows what he has inside him, I suppose it can still be super nice to hear it from your husband's voice, his warm alive voice. I suppose that is what women mean with "emotional".

I wouldn't suggest any men to cry because of materialistic reasons infront of their wives. That might shatter the rock she sees and wishes to see in you.

If you cry, then cry only by dropping one or two tears, when you both show deep love to each other, sharing the deepest of emotions, emotions that you and her usually don't dare to explore and are only able to explore because of the safety and security you give each other.

I suppose that is what women want to say.

SuperBodybuilder7405 · 2022-07-05T20:30:37+00:00

The problem is that there's little reason to open up to anyone, you're not going to get any kind of useful comfort or advice. People will tell you "pick yourself up, do better" and that's it. Which is not a bad thing in a vacuum but sometimes, when you're in a bad spot - you just want someone to listen to your problems and that's it.

That kind of skill is very rare in both men and women I feel.

Caring_Cactus · 2022-07-06T00:54:44+00:00

I feel like this is too generalized, because you can see this from any human regardless of sex/gender. I think it's more of a human problem, than a man/woman problem.

gofigure62 · 2022-07-05T18:42:40+00:00

People need to know what the people that they're specifically dating mean when they speak, and what they specifically want in execution.

Different people have different boundaries and expectations regarding emotional availability. Asking what the definitions and boundaries that other people outside of the relationship have is pointless.

There's a difference between emotionally dumping and being emotionally vulnerable. There are also times where it's perfectly fine to emotionally dump and/or be stoic.

There also the required skillset necessary to determine if someone is SAFE enough to open up to. Just because someone is a woman, doesn't mean that they aren't a shitbag narc that won't emotionally manipulate or damage someone.

The problem comes from people on average not knowing how to walk or chew gum at the same time. If they can't go balls to the walls immediately, they call bullshit on everything.

There's a significant amount of nuance here that average people just aren't capable of understanding. Without a play by play rule book, with red flag and warnings to be weary of, no one is going to be aided with generic blanket statements regarding this conversation.

Especially if people on average are emotionally and stunted to the degree that they don't even know what emotional availability means, let alone how to enact it.

ExtraGreenBox · 2022-07-05T21:26:19+00:00

The healthy balance is don’t listen to women when they’re preaching. Watch what they do.

ALexusOhHaiNyan · 2022-07-06T01:57:18+00:00

I was a very sensitive young man. It got me nothing of what I wanted from women. I’m a naturally emotionally thinking person, into the arts etc, once I started practicing a little stoicism is when women started being attracted to me. Then to them it feels like they found a Diamond in the rough or what have you? Dunno, but I’m not a dick and I care. I just dont go out of my way to show that initially, and it’s a display of value ether I agree with it or not. I wouldn’t do it if it weren’t hammered into me that it works. So I wouldn’t say my experience was the norm but, here’s a cynical take that stuck with me…

When women say they want a man that listens what they really want is a man that listens, to her. A sensitive man, to her. Shares his feelings? About her.

It’s no different than an immature Incel wanting a woman that likes anime and vidya. They want themselves, with tits. It’s immature and solipstic. If these times need an antidote that might be - “It’s not always about you”

Until we can start unpacking how on surface that seems to be an issue with men, but is ultimately selfish or solipsistic on the part of women no understanding is made. And that’s what’s so sorely lacking. Just as much as women feel like they aren’t real to men, or seen, the reverse is true, and never discussed. I don’t see it being encouraged in pop culture that women do their part. In fact female chauvinism seems to be trending right now on TokTok as some sort of deliberate irony to show men how it feels that’s become sincere, how are younger girls to know the difference? The lines are being blurred here and the sexes seem more at odds than ever before by no choice of men imo.

We’re at a crossroads. We needed stoic men because of “male expendability”, a crucial factor if women are to understand men and what little space has been dedicated to that understanding since the sexual Revolution. The Industrial Age didn’t have time for men to have feelings. Just work. Build. Die easy. Disposable. Now we’ve built civilization to a comfortable level that, may be at a tipping point back to hardship.

Do modern women really want a man in touch with his feelings if shit goes down in the privileged isolated West or collapse comes to America? Or someone handy, quick with an axe and gun that can build things? There’s a distinct difference in class values the middle class seems oblivious to at times. Country vs City, and country values are just waiting for women and men to learn where completely upended gender roles gets them. Do Ukrainian women in fear for their lives, country and way of life want a good listener right now?

At the end of the day this brief moment of relative comfort in history has been the exception not the norm.

heyeveryonewhatsup · 2022-07-05T18:29:22+00:00

I mean yeah that's a risk that comes with opening up to literally anyone, including your family and closest friends.

"If this is a good thing why is it possible that bad things will come of it!" Because...that's how vulnerability works. It's a risk. You might get burned, you might get a great result.

The healthy balance is knowing that you will live. People get hurt everyday. Even if some bitch throws it back in your face, great she's shown her true colors. Next.

2022-07-05T20:51:14+00:00

At the end of the day, only certain sharing is okay for men.

Despair is the opposite of strength, and it does lessen the trust in you to be a strong stable partner. This is the big one that when men show it, attraction and maybe more is lost.

Others however are weaponized by shitty people. Women overall have a culture of being emotionally cruel (not all women of course) where as mens cruelty comes most often in the form of physical rage. Not too many women will stomp on a person, many men will. Not many men will cut another person to the core with their words (not that they wouldn’t if they could, but most mens brains turn to mush when they become very angry, some would do it if they had the presence to in those moments).

Sentimentality should be expressed as a guy, most good women want to see that side of their man. They want to know their man cares about the people and things in their life….this does not indicate in any way a man would be anything less than a rock during a stressful situation.

qsdf321 · 2022-07-05T23:10:28+00:00

Pay your therapist $100 an hour to tell you to get the fuck over it.

Outrageous_Office_98 · 2022-07-06T02:42:37+00:00

Depends on the woman. Ex wife hated any display of emotion from me. Current GF of 3 years loves it. Maybe it’s generational? Ex wife was Millennial and GF is Gen Z.

mc0079 · 2022-07-06T13:12:00+00:00

Maybe not get your information form Tik Tok? It's a very slanted and abnormal group of subjects.

Who are "women" and "men"....we are not hiveminds.

herefortheparty01 · 2022-07-05T18:52:05+00:00

Sounds like it’s always the man’s fault. Ok

clara_12060139 · 2022-07-05T19:45:54+00:00

Pushing your emotions down is toxic! And harmful to yourself! This is a ridiculous take. No one can be strong 24/7. If your partner can’t accept that you’re human and have emotions then she’s just immature.

PurplePillEric · 2022-07-05T19:40:27+00:00

You're crying for a few minutes because you're upset that you didn't get something that you worked hard for and would like support from your partner? Normal. Crying over everything in your life that isn't going your way and you have no emotional regulation? Expecting her to be your self esteem? That's a mental illness that needs professional health treatment. That's the same for men and women.

Crying or not crying because your mother passed? Both are normal expressions of grief. Everyone handles it in their own way.

Sharing your strong feelings with your partner is normal, both highs and lows. Sharing every mother fucking thought that enters your head for them to validate you is not. Sharing with those closest to you is normal. Expecting an acquaintance to hear your darkest secrets because women want the men they're close with to open up is not. Healthy boundaries are not hard.

You can also get support from a partner for a mental illness, but expecting them to be your therapist while you refuse treatment is unacceptable and they're not responsible to either fix you or tolerate you destroying their own mental health. They're not medical providers and aren't equipped for that.

kblkbl165 · 2022-07-05T23:56:47+00:00

Sometimes this sub feels like aliens taking notes on how to be human.

2022-07-05T20:04:15+00:00

The healthy balance for men is to be a fucking vault. If you want to share go share with a male friend. You don't dump your purse in front of the woman you are fucking

bakalabalak · 2022-07-06T01:22:49+00:00

1st example)

Guy snapped at his partner, clearly acting hostile. Not a healthy way to show emotions. Claims she was just pretending to listen with no basis and refuses to say why. When he asks a few weeks later "do I ever get upset" The obvious answer is yes. He does get upset and snap. Emotionally immature. Not only that, but he was stitching a video where two women asked how they could help men talk about feelings and feel safe. Did he give an actual answer? No. He just made up a situation where he felt he was the victim, even though ironically in his situation he was being an asshole.

2nd example)

This guy is just very funny. He adds absolutely nothing to answer the question.

First, he says, something like "men are doing USEFUL things and don't WASTE THEIR TIME on silly emotional talk". Already, he has established that he bottles up his feelings. So again, emotionally immature. He also implies that women, don't do useful things? Which is weird. So he clearly doesn't see the value of being vulnerable in the first place. After that, he says whenever a guy is vulnerable with a girl, she "says something that makes him upset" and ultimately rage. Now I'm not an expert, but being vulnerable with someone shouldn't end up in a raging fight. This is just sounding like he thinks being emotionally vulnerable means throwing a screaming fit and ranting about every detail in his life that has made him upset for x amount of time.

3rd example)

Well yeah? I don't see what she did other than state the obvious. Men are humans, with human feelings. If you ask him about his feelings you should want to hear his feelings. Invalidating him is a bad thing. lmao

TheElusivePeacock · 2022-07-06T03:39:50+00:00

Do it for a woman you’re in a relationship with and actually care about.

Don’t do it to try to get sex. Like faking friendships and whining about the dreaded friendzone. Or “opening up” to make it seem like you’ve “bonded” on an emotional level. Pretending to have emotional attachments for sex is something men are known for. Then they wonder why women suddenly don’t care. This is the actual reason. It’s not that you look “weak”. It’s that men try to use emotions to get sex and women can finally see through that shit.

Don’t share your emotions with someone who clearly doesn’t GAF about you. Oh, she uses you for money? Gaslights you? Mentally abuses you? Stop chasing a fucking asshole like you tell women to do. If women said they opened up to a Chad when he was treating her like shit, all the men here would tell her that’s her fault. Well it’s your fault too for picking an asshole. Choose better.

hollo_man45 · 2022-07-06T07:11:40+00:00

Honestly I think ya’ll are just bad at picking women.

AelfredRex · 2022-07-06T11:48:05+00:00

The key word there is "immature". If you're crying because a parent died, that's a reasonable emotional response. If they can't understand that, they got problems. If you're crying because you can't buy a yacht on your salary, then you got deeper issues and that's gonna put any person at a distance. Context matters.

Why does "lifting" always find it's way into this stuff? Are you people that obsessed with going to the gym?

sharksville · 2022-07-06T12:46:12+00:00

My take is that women want and expect men to be mature but they don’t mature themselves. For me it would be justified rather than immature if I cried over a promotion I missed at work. Maybe it was probably because of the fact that I was really looking forward it and having all my time skills and energy that I invested get some acknowledgment with something other than a pat on the back that comes with a thank you. Women are the issue if they expect men to open up about there emotions but then use it against them. I’d rather not open up at all about my emotions if a women isn’t going to take it seriously and just treat it like it’s nothing and tell me to get over it. Simple as that. It’s not just about not getting a promotion, it’s about me busting my ass off but not being acknowledged properly for it.

reforged-demon-blade · 2022-07-06T13:01:16+00:00

The healthy balance is men having good, genuinely trustworthy male friends for their emotional needs or a good therapist. You'll never know when it comes to women so better not show vulnerability around them.

Maxarc · 2022-07-06T14:19:39+00:00

I see men not being able to express themselves authentically as a serious social problem and no matter how much we say men need to open up, it's just as much a problem of those that socially punish or reward them. Claiming men need to open up and calling it a day is a very cheap way to score brownie points, because it's an overly addressed and oversimplified solution. The reason people choose to act a certain way has just as much to do with the path of least resistance. Those offering that resistance are therefore just as responsible for fixing the issue. I reject gendered issues as isolated. It's action and reaction.

I want to challenge the idea that men are naturally less emotional as well. I don't think they are, but that we culturally frame certain emotions as "more emotional" than others. Men seem to feel anger a bit more strongly and fear a bit less so, probably due to the effects testosterone can have on their feelings. I say can, because it is more complicated than that due to other chemicals like serotonin, oxytocin and cortisol having effects on how testosterone expresses itself, just like culture does. It's highly contextual and living in a culture that promotes men to seek out a bit more danger also probably has effects on desensitizing them. Moreover, there is no evidence men naturally feel less sadness, love or happiness, yet it is expected of men to express those feelings less. This probably means there is serious social conditioning going on and if we don't like that: the fix is a collective effort.

I'm spotting three problems from every side I interact with when it comes to this issue:

Some claim that men ought to act stoically due to their biology. Even if it were true, there seems to be little evidence that culture cannot override this tendency like it did so many other things. We produce different chemicals in the modern age, simply due to having an abundance of certain things like food, shelter, entertainment and stability. This changes how our brains express themselves and it's probably why men in prisons seem to feel different effects of testosterone than men that have stable lives and families (though, there's also probably a selection bias).
the other side sees the problem o.p addresses but then oversimplifies the fix. We cannot point to men and say they need to do this-and-that and call it a day. That's not how things work in the social arena. If you want to be a part of the solution you have to work on how you treat men that decide to open up and you need to work on the things you find romantically interesting, as romantic interest is one of many social rewards for said behaviour. If you refuse to do this, you must bench yourself and shut the fuck up about the issue altogether, as you're part of the problem. Your activism is hollow and meaningless.
Some men see the issue but flip their behaviour to an unhealthy extreme. I sometimes read posts from guys that say they expressed themselves and got fucked over. I totally believe this happens, but consider that there are different ways to express yourself authentically. Some ways unfairly fuck you over, but others improve your life. Even though it's absolutely fucked that you even have to think about this bullshit, there are a few hacks you can use to express your feelings without being punished for it. I would personally consider congruence. Which means: an alignment in your thoughts, words and actions. Do and say what you think as authentically as you possibly can. The reason this works is because it both makes you emotionally mature and signals a sort of "I don't give a fuck about what you think, because I think what I think and I express that" attitude. It brings respect and trust and allows you to blow off steam in time before you snap into trauma-dump mode and push people away.

Alright, that's it. Peace!

AidsVictim · 2022-07-05T19:58:23+00:00

Men simply need to recognize that they already have the internal tools to manage their mental and emotional state and there's is very little to be gained trying to rely on women for support. Most of them can't even manage their own mental health/emotions, why would want to rely on someone like that? The number of women who either a) won't think lesser of you b) are actually capable of helping you are very few.

It's ok to share some emotional insight about yourself, just don't expect anything from it beyond satiating her curiosity or desire for emotional intimacy, and keep in mind you probably need to frame it certain way to retain masculinity/respect.

EugeneCezanne · 2022-07-05T22:13:46+00:00

These videos are so sad. Men think the problem is women when it's not: it's the subset of women they choose to date. Don't date women who aren't emotionally supportive. Have a standard.

My job was prestigious yet incredibly stressful. I brought home that stress even when I tried not to. My gf, ambitious and accomplished, encouraged me to quit. When I did, she comforted me all day, celebrated with me since, and has been nothing but supportive, even though it's causing her some stress. Any of my female friends would do the same--many have had the chance to prove it.

If your relationship isn't helping you feel secure in who you really are, it's a toxic relationship and you need to keep looking.

Dafiro93 · 2022-07-05T18:18:42+00:00

I am turned off by men in cars with their sunglasses on talking about this.

AyWhatITIS · 2022-07-05T19:24:51+00:00

Women don't like emotional men because Emotionality =a cue of lower Testosterone Lower Testosterone= less physical abilities(strength energy, muscle) Less physical abilities = security threat to woman and offspring from outside forces( animals, hostile tribes, etc) Security threat =death

Death= you don't pass on your genes

Therefore because we as a species are about 400,000 years old, emotional men have historically been bad for the baby making business

We are monkeys with nukes and under the domain of our biological impulses, don't get it twisted. No one teaches a dog how to wag it's tail or a human baby to walk. Nature is nature

Slight_Fig5187 · 2022-07-05T21:12:17+00:00

I don't want to generalize, but at least in my case and that of most of the women I know, a man who expresses his emotions in a reasonable way is a very attractive person. And a man who never expresses emotions is one of the types of men I would never date.

But of course, the key is finding the right balance, and that would apply to any human interaction including friendship. Somebody who's constantly whining, expressing his insatisfaction about whatever is wrong in his life, his hatred or jealousy or whatever other emotion and not leaving space for a relaxed interaction is very unappealing. As a friend or as a romantic partner.

In my life, a couple of relationships moved from the "friendzone" to becoming a romantic/sexual relationship when I saw the man express emotion and show his vulnerability. In one case it was crying for somebody who was about to die, in the other telling me about some extremely painful events of his past life.

By the way, both relationships ended when, a long time afterwards, these men opted again for showing a very tough, unemotional masculine behavior, which I find very unappealing.

MachoMan617 · 2022-07-05T19:14:10+00:00

DON'T do it men!!! 😂🤣

insultin_crayon · 2022-07-05T20:42:20+00:00

Pretty sure this is rare. My husband cries way more than me but he's still my husband. Emotions are natural in human beings and it's sad that men make it out to be a weakness.

WYenginerdWY · 2022-07-06T00:21:31+00:00

The idea that this is a singularly gendered issue is mostly a bullshit take. The vast majority of the times that I've gone out of my way to be kind to men or vulnerable with them, it's been weaponized against me and made into "my fault" for being too trusting. Like, "you're a sheep and he's a wolf and what did you expect if not for him to slaughter you?"

That first video that you linked in particular made me unhappy chuckle. I'm not allowed to complain in public about hating my job either because all I'll hear is a cacophony of misogynistic men telling me that my misery is 100% my fault because I'm not where I belong and I'm trying to "do a man's job".

OhDestinyAltMine · 2022-07-05T18:47:08+00:00

Except in cases where the guy is just being a little bitch, I think it’s about boundaries after the fact moreso. Like there’s a lot of manosphere emphasis on avoiding risk entirely, but that just hides the problem.

I will be vulnerable in a mature way, and if my partner has an issue with it, i will replace her with someone better (or at least newer and more enthusiastic). In fact, from an abundance position, any excuse to go new girlfriend hunting is just threatening me with a good time. Meanwhile some manosphere guy is so deathly afraid of rejection or emasculation from some random forgettable hoe that he never really knows who she is under there.

Jonesw16 · 2022-07-05T21:02:15+00:00

Crying due to grieving is turnoff too, it's best to be a cold emotionless psychopath.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-07-05T19:56:20+00:00

Men don't seem to distinguish between being able to talk about how they feel in a mature and adult way and turning into pathetic cry babies.

ItsAlexCostello · 2022-07-06T15:59:35+00:00

Thanks for tagging my video. Everyone in this thread should look forward to the podcast we are going to be recording about this exact topic.

sarkington · 2022-07-05T18:21:06+00:00

Depends on the woman. I bet there’s a negative correlation with her interest in height

Sad_Top1743 · 2022-07-05T18:49:04+00:00

Second vid was how I feel about it. No idea what they mean? Like I can share my feelings without being vulnerable also I’m to busy actually doing things than to care about that

Ian_Campbell · 2022-07-05T20:53:01+00:00

A healthy balance is completely recognizing these emotional vampires, never dating women like that, and ostracizing them from society

2022-07-06T01:59:01+00:00

The easiest way to avoid this is by dating a girl that is not a bitch and cares about your feelings, SIMPLE

Excellent_Trouble_97 · 2022-07-05T21:34:56+00:00

there is no balance, humans live separated from nature meaning women can't afford to be down to earth to remain competitive.

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321gumby · 2022-07-06T00:32:27+00:00

Be emotional and fuck them like you are heartless. Win win....

Asatmaya · 2022-07-06T01:34:33+00:00

Instances where the woman weaponizes a mature emotional vulnerability is the woman's fault, but the man could have seen it coming if he paid more attention when getting to know her and set the frame up better.

That's not good odds; this isn't a case of the occasional "bad apple" woman acting this way, but is in fact "normal" for most women.

IcarusKiki · 2022-07-06T01:37:19+00:00

80/20 alpha/beta rule for relationships. A man whos too stoic is going to intimidate and make his SO feel uneasy - like there's something he's hiding from her. A man who's too emotional makes the woman feel like she cannot rely on him to be a man and is a turn off too. Women want a tough guy with a hint of a sensitive side that he only shows to her.

2022-07-06T01:51:51+00:00

I think that a healthy exhibit of emotions is a good thing and obviously important for long term emotional stability and maturity. I don’t condone people who weaponize emotional expression, but it’s unfortunately to be expected sometimes. People weaponize womens’ emotional expression too - we get told that we’re too emotional to be intelligent and make rational decisions all the time.

The more emotional expression is normalized, the more we can move away from the toxic view society has on emotions.

LovesGettingRandomPm · 2022-07-06T03:16:02+00:00

It's one of those Ideas I find beautiful and desirable the ability to each be able to be vulnerable in a relationship and grow to love each other more intimately because of that.

I've tried to get at that and now believe it is impossible the closer you get to someone the more you have to deal with both your emotions at once, there's no split anymore, you would get anxiety when they are anxious and anxiety when you are anxious both of you would be anxious and feel the same emotions that the other one has leading to you infecting each other and doubling the amount of emotional damage to your mental health. Maybe you can offset this by an act of working together through all that but it wouldn't be simple and sometimes you both just don't have the time to do that. So I think processing emotions is something that is best to just do yourself and then the beautiful dream for coming together or "oneness" is just an unreachable illusion.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-07-06T06:08:17+00:00

My take is that:

Women are turned off by an immature emotional response. A man beating himself up and looking for sympathy from his woman because he missed a promotion at work for example, rather than regrouping and taking steps towards earning the promotion the next time it becomes available is low value/beta/immature display of character.

That's a natural response though. Attractive qualities are attractive. I'd lose attraction towards a woman if she was was struggling with her weight and opened up with me about how she couldn't stop eating emotionally or something. It's not fair, but it's innate.

Same goes for crying. Crying because you missed the promotion is unattractive. Not crying if your mother died is also unattractive. Appropriate emotional response

This one is true. And I didn't cry when my grandpa died which is weird. I'm glad I was single at the time. To be fair he was dying for at least 2 years so it wasn't sudden but still.

Instances where the woman weaponizes a mature emotional vulnerability is the woman's fault, but the man could have seen it coming if he paid more attention when getting to know her and set the frame up better.

If a woman weaponizes your emotional vulnerability you need to cut the relationship off immediately if it's pre cohabitation stage. If you're living together or married you need to take a long solo vacation or somehow let her know that is not OK.

The solution to emotional maturity, setting the frame up better, and detecting a woman that's going to weaponize your vulnerability is self improvement: lifting, leveling up at your passion, and establishing financial security. Doing these things will give you a level, mature mind where everything else more or less falls into place.

Doing these things will give you a level, mature mind where everything else more or less falls into place.

This is false. Most mental illness does not derive from being vulnerable outwardly. I agree hard exercise and success will mitigate it. But I know plenty of successful fit men who have issues. I make 6 figures and also am fit and have natural (as in, big 5 trait based) neurotic personality issues. Alot on here would kill to have my life but sometimes I'm not happy. Sometimes I am. It's life. Finances increase your happiness up to 75k per year -- after that, it's flat

Whynotbebetter · 2022-07-06T09:02:38+00:00

Women stops weaponizing it. That's the healthy balance...

ex_red_black_piller · 2022-07-06T10:38:09+00:00

> because you missed the promotion is unattractive

Crying might be a bit much but I guess you have no idea what it feels like to work and work towards a goal and have it snatched away at the end.

I have see the strongest of men get knocked out (even if temporarily) by major career setbacks.

Intelligent-Term · 2022-07-06T13:32:37+00:00

It has been my experience that women only want to know my emotions or feelings so long as it benefits *them* in some way. And women have this uncanny ability to weaponize it against you. They remember everything that was ever said in an argument when I (and probably most men) just let things go and forget. Shit I can't even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. I really have no interest in manipulating people the way women seem to want to do.

CMDRReservoir · 2022-07-07T03:37:57+00:00

The reality of the situation is that any woman that loses attraction for a guy that opened up to her is that she was never truly attracted to him in the first place. Opening up and expressing your deepest feelings is revealing your true human self.

When a girl asks a guy to open up, she is essentially saying, "I'm very attracted to what I've seen of you thus far, and I want to dig deeper." What happens when you're excited about something you want to know more about? Your imagination runs wild with what it could be. She's hoping the man opens up and confirms the fantasy she's conjured up in her head. The man opens up, it doesn't align with the girl's expectations, and she is thus disappointed. The disappointment frequently brews into resentment, and then it all goes downhill from there. Guys who say to never open up to a woman are really only advocating for surface level relationships and robbing themselves from the genuine connection they are after.

The only "frame" that's ever going to matter is an authentic one. If a man is cool with himself, screw anybody else who isn't. If a man sets his frame by coming to terms with his own emotions, vulnerability, and who he is/wants to be, he'll automatically nail the presentation of his feelings because he's comfortable with them, aka, he's comfortable being his authentic self.

Obviously yes, having an emotionally immature reaction to something constantly is not attractive, but that's true for people in general. I'm not a fan of whiny men who don't take action, but I'm sure as hell not attracted to whiny women with a victim mentality.

NFthrowaway8302021 · 2022-07-07T08:09:26+00:00

Either they lose respect or hold it against you later, the reason that men dont open up is because they know this and may have even experienced it.

Ohms2North · 2022-07-07T10:31:39+00:00

Treat it like that question in a job interview “what’s your greatest weakness?” Do you tell the truth? Or do you say something like “I’m a bit of a perfectionist so sometimes I have to work really hard to produce the results that meet my standards”

cholmanattom · 2022-07-17T15:39:07+00:00

My ex gfs invoked various feelings out of me, desire to be loved, neediness, jealousy, sadness, loneliness and embarrassment. All of those were looked down upon by them and they left me because I was too weak and boring. So what sort of feelings I am allowed to have as a man? Well now I only have anger, hatred and indifference and they would surely label me as sexist.

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