What is the difference between toxic masculinity and high value men?

greedyleopard42 · 2022-03-18T14:50:12+00:00

the issue is really the fact that men who don’t do certain things are implied to be “less than”.

Puzzleheaded-Lab-165 · 2022-03-18T15:48:55+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SuggestedAd67328 · 2022-03-18T15:53:04+00:00

Almost every male starts from position of low value and slowly raises in value till mid-life. Some of that bunch might even achieve high-value.

However, the question is how rough that path was for male. If 20-or-so dude was routinely ignored by girls or even cheated on (happened to me twice) - what his mindset will be in his 30ies and 40ies?

In my early 20 I sucked, in my late 20 I started to deliver, in my 30 I kicked ass (and fucked around a lot), in my mid-30 I married a conservative hottie who sucks the air from the room when she walks in. However, I still carry lots of anger.

Unfortunately, in Western world this is norm, especially in larger cities. Most of decent guys are getting shafted for jerks, older men (sometimes married) and other ‘alphas’. Now I have money and I am more experienced too - it would be ridiculously easy to fuck those young stupid girls.

Toxic masculinity starts with girls playing hardcore bitches. Why do you later expect such man to be kind and understanding to women?

Accomplished_Gap5279 · 2022-03-18T21:38:53+00:00

As unpopular as it sounds addopting those above "toxic" traits will increase your smv exponentially make you a better person and a better father. I was a beta for my whole life and got exactly what you would expect. Through TRP I learned shit and I changed everything and became a high value man, physically and mentally strong. agressive. assertive made bank took the hits head on stopped complaining and became emotionally stoic. Everything you outlined above.. It was like I was playing the game on cheat mode. Those behaviours may seem toxic but they garner respect and admirarion from all the people in your life men, women and even children. The change is night and day.

daddysgotanew · 2022-03-18T15:02:34+00:00

High value man

Toxic masculinity

There you go.

John_Oakman · 2022-03-18T15:07:17+00:00

It's not anti-social behavior if those in leadership/influential positions does it.

purplish_possum · 2022-03-18T16:09:04+00:00

An ugly masculine man is toxic.

An attractive masculine man is high value.

M_LaSalle · 2022-03-18T17:06:35+00:00

If women find the men attractive, they are high value. If not, their efforts at masculinity are toxic. Alpha qualities are always attractive, but to aspire to them and fall short is toxic.

Kaisha001 · 2022-03-18T16:33:36+00:00

Does it benefit women = high value. Otherwise it's toxic. Whether or not it's beneficial, or even detrimental, to the man is irrelevant to women. As far women are concerned men's sole purpose is to serve women, anything else is toxic.

SmarmyPapsmears · 2022-03-18T14:57:06+00:00

All of the traits that my wife says are "toxic masculinity" are the same traits that she chose me for. Women just think that they can "change" him and make him more sensitive.

Women want stoic. Women want confident. Women want a dude who's able to defend himself and protect her. And it's toxic to pretend like it's not true.

HumanNumber348 · 2022-03-18T15:05:11+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a term for the societal expectation of men to always be masculine.

A high value man is just a man that is attractive to women, (including to women who may be influenced by toxic masculinity).

Visible-Doughnut-782 · 2022-03-18T16:31:52+00:00

It’s quite simple.

Toxic masculinity: Masculine men who Woman don’t find physically attractive.

HVM: Masculine men who Woman do find physically attractive.

Mobrowncheeks · 2022-03-18T15:48:14+00:00

There isn’t a difference. “ high value” is the sum of a man, “ toxic masculinity “ are traits that a man holds. Every trait that is considered toxic masculinity can detract from a mans value, but if he is valuable enough, will still be considered high value.

sootlord · 2022-03-18T16:23:12+00:00

Blame society for the monstrous destruction of masculinity. Men are getting told for years to be in touch with their feelings and that being strong is an illusion. Blame women for teaching boys lie, blame men in the highest positions of capitalism for extorting them.

Smitten_Squire · 2022-03-18T17:50:31+00:00

"Toxic masculinity" is when men hate on other men, denigrate men, "white knight" women, and act like "nice guys"

ApatheticHeretic_101 · 2022-03-18T20:09:51+00:00

I love how women try to explain things about men...they have no clue.

In many cases, behavior is only "toxic" only if they don't like it, don't understand it and can't control it.

How the fuck can any woman know what masculinity is? Familial, societal, psychological, behavioral, social or anywhere in between.

Men, never listen to women that claim they understand men...and try to tell you what is "wrong" with us. We are not women.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-03-18T15:11:13+00:00

The way I see it toxic masculinity comes from a deep seated need to prove that you are a man, that you are tough and powerful. A high value male has nothing left to prove, he doesn't need to impress or posture or feel inadequate because someone else has offered to lead.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-03-18T15:55:51+00:00

Toxic masculinity is more something that happens when various masculine traits manifest themselves in ways that are unbalanced. It's a specific manifestation rather than a particular quality, as most of the qualities that manifest in a toxic masculinity combination are useful (if not always pretty) in lower does and/or other contexts. I've worked in finance and been around higher-end finance people than I could ever have been. Toxic masculinity is real, but the term does get thrown around too liberally.

'High Value Man' (or woman) only makes sense when one is modeling the sexual marketplace as an economic dynamic for lower resolution, more abstract purposes. In such a case, 'value' has no moral connotations. It merely represents high demand from the other gender. So HMV really means 'Highly Demanded Man', with high SMV and/or RMV in a given context.

It is possible that some people are using the term in another sense, and loading more onto the 'Value' label. But in such cases, what they mean specifically would be very idiosyncratic.

gofigure62 · 2022-03-18T15:31:30+00:00

I believe "high value" is in reference to the benefit that someone can add to someone's life in all aspects of being with them. This means someone who can be an asset financially, while also being emotionally/mentally supportive, in addition to being an active participant in all other aspects of life as a partner.

Men who are toxically masculine are caricatures of social definitions of "masculinity", meaning that they're hyper violent, hyper sexual, needlessly aggressive, anti-social, emotionally numb, sub-humans. There is no humanity in them aside from their shape. They aren't capable of emotionally connecting or bonding with anyone or anything because it's not "masculine" to love or care for other people.

Toxicly masculine men are not coopertive nor compassionate enough to engage in a relationship that would be of value to anyone. They're dangers and detriments to those around them.

LittleDragonMaiden · 2022-03-18T14:43:04+00:00

Toxic Masculinity

-some drunk methhead making sexual comments about everyone that passes, even other men

High value man

-A king who knows his worth and plays Elden Ring

Professional-Car7752 · 2022-03-18T17:47:36+00:00

I always failed with women because I did not have a drivers license, not a good job and not the biggest arms, definitely women pushed me in the toxic masculinity field. Because I thought I have to do all that stuff to actually get a girlfriend

FoxCQC · 2022-03-18T20:31:57+00:00

Looks and/or money

gerrta_hard · 2022-03-19T01:42:11+00:00

Perception.

parahacker · 2022-03-18T14:37:35+00:00

'toxic masculinity' is a slur on men.

Your question can be translated to 'what's the difference between men and dogshit?'

As for the answer, it doesn't matter really. Pick your punchline. It's all bias. And any 'real' answers to your question are going to come from people who think it's perfectly fine to call men dogshit (except for that one guy! exception that proves the rule, hur hur).

The whole notion of 'toxic masculinity' has turned into a cruel joke and a way to demean people for being men.

2022-03-18T15:35:51+00:00

I can’t answer this from a female perspective, but from the perspective of who I respect as a man? It’s definitely not the guy trying to prove that he is the most tough and masculine in the room. It’s the man who embodies confidence and generosity (both masculine traits/traits women look for in partners) and uplifts the people around him. Who would you rather date/be friends with: the man who acts like he has something to prove, or the one who already earns your respect?

AssOfTheSameOldMule · 2022-03-18T16:52:15+00:00

Toxic masculinity pumps up or validates your own ego at other people’s expense. Neutral masculinity is for yourself, doesn’t really harm or help anyone else. Positive masculinity is acting for both yourself and the people around you (being a good leader, teacher, supporter, protector, etc.).

Example: Being competitive is considered a masculine characteristic. Nothing wrong with being competitive, it’s great.

A normal man will be happy when he wins but he won’t gloat or criticize others for their performance, he’ll be a good sport if he loses and won’t whine about how it’s unfair or get bitter at the winner. No one else will feel better or worse because that guy won or lost.

A “HMV” will act humble when he wins and teach others how to improve without coming off as rude or condescending, be encouraging when people make progress, and when he loses, he might even congratulate the winner and ask him for tips. This guy uses competition to lift up the people around him in some way, whether he wins or loses.

Someone with toxic masculinity will gloat and act smug and superior when he wins, put others’ performances down or act like he’s “above” them, or if he loses, he’ll complain about it being unfair, act rude to the winner or talk trash about him, get pissy and sulky, etc.

All 3 are doing something masculine: competing. Whether they’re HVM, neutral, or toxic depends on whether they use their masculinity to make others feel better, the same, or worse.

techr0nin · 2022-03-18T15:24:09+00:00

Being tough, masculine, and powerful is considered toxic? What the fuck?

It’s one thing to say that it’s okay if you aren’t those things. But what this is saying is that in order to not be a toxic man you need to be physically weak, emotionally sensitive, behaviorally passive, effeminate, and powerless. This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

Best_Illustrator_137 · 2022-03-18T15:37:19+00:00

No such thing as “toxic masculinity” just another term to make men feel bad about being men. There’s toxic people but no such thing as toxic masculinity.

DiscoVersailles · 2022-03-18T15:34:56+00:00

Toxic Masculinity, to me, has always meant the performance of masculinity as a gender role solely for outside approval. For example, when Red Pill men and PUA scammers talk at length about how they’ll NEVER hold their wives purses in public, because it’s a “shit test”. The type of guy that prides himself on treating his girlfriends or wives poorly by never buying flowers or gifts. The kind of guy that wouldn’t watch a certain movie just because he’s afraid of the reaction he’d receive for watching it.

It’s something that doesn’t just hurt women but also hurts men by keeping them closed off and emotionally unconnected to the people around them. And that’s really sad.

A “high value man” I guess is man that isn’t insecure about that kind of stuff. I find that terminology silly though.

floralgirl2002 · 2022-03-18T15:40:49+00:00

according to that definition of toxic masculinity, I think the people who spout it just dont want any men to succeed in life. its almost like its spouted by people with toxic femininity lol

Ohmaygahh · 2022-03-18T17:19:19+00:00

I find more and more when people say "toxic masculinity" means guys are unapologetically looking out for their own self interest without input from other people's opinions.

HumanSockPuppet · 2022-03-18T19:52:34+00:00

Attainability to the person making the judgment.

The_Important_Stuff · 2022-03-19T02:45:51+00:00

I think the women on Reddit are more reasonable, but in the dating market as a whole you are damn right that being wealthy is an advantage. For many it is a deal breaker. Esp in this shitty economy.

So is physically strong, behaviorally aggressive (a "go getter"), social status. Number 3 is a given that the majority of women want this.

I do think when taken to extremes the traits listed by OP are "toxic" but on the average or lower end, lets be real, women want these things. Women are lying to us and themselves if they say they don't care.

Smithersink · 2022-03-19T05:58:01+00:00

I think all these qualities are things to be desired in men… but if the women you’re dating keep complaining and bringing up your shortcomings, you might wanna start dating other women 😳

leftover-pizza- · 2022-03-19T08:36:04+00:00

Neither, really. Evolutionarily, it has been beneficial for women to reproduce with higher status men. So I guess evolution is to blame. Societal structures have changed, but evolution hasn’t managed to catch up yet.

twotimegoat · 2022-03-19T21:06:01+00:00

One is ugly

The other one is good looking,

eyelinerqueen83 · 2022-03-22T22:49:25+00:00

I’m not sure what you mean by “high value” but I think that what women value varies from woman to woman. I don’t value money but I do value a man who is on the same educational level as me and makes a similar amount of money. This is because I want us to be equal contributes in our household. Because I value the ability to support myself, I sought out a person who can support themselves. My husband and I are equals in this way. So he’s a high value man to me for this among many reasons.

Toxic masculinity is wholly unattractive and unacceptable to me because I dislike a man who is hostile and aggressive. These traits are low value to me. So there is the difference.

flipsidetroll · 2022-03-23T23:16:33+00:00

It’s a term that’s been totally abused, and used as an excuse whenever a chick doesn’t get her way. If there is toxic masculinity, then there is toxic feminism. And I think it can be boiled down to the simplest definition of : when that person uses their gender for purely selfish reasons to get what they want, ultimately hurting others to do it. An example of toxic feminism, is the reproductive debate. The only rights men have there, are at the moment before sex, condom or not. After that, no matter what they discussed, every choice is hers if she falls pregnant. Keep it or not, doesn’t matter what he wants. And they abuse those rights constantly. That is toxic feminism. A high value man would simply be the opposite. Not a pushover, definitely not. Still masculine. But caring about how his actions or needs could affect others, while still leading. The very fact that there are so many definitions here, proves that making anything based on physical looks is stupid. Because everyone had different tastes. So a 9 for one person is not to another. Why do people not get this simple concept? I’ve added nothing earth shattering here, but trying to make the dating world into a one-size-fits-all little box, is only going to blind you to other possibilities. So you don’t have to be a high value man to everyone, but as long as you are high value to her, you are.

_Woodrow_ · 2022-03-18T15:22:22+00:00

Tony Soprano or Walter White is toxic masculinity

Hopper from Stranger Things or Raylan Givens from Justified would be examples of positive masculinity

It’s not that hard to figure out.

-angels-fan- · 2022-03-18T15:19:28+00:00

Why does me liking a pina colada and enjoying Wicked make me gay or girly in some men's eyes?

There's nothing high or low value about any of those things.

I have a Trump lovin cowboy bother in law that is overflowing with toxic masculinity. Anything other than beer or whisky is gay. Liking a musical? Might as well march in a pride parade!

Jacke766565 · 2022-03-18T15:19:58+00:00

The only big difference is if the mans actions come at the expense of others, as opposed to lifting others up.

But the differentiation is pretty uncomfortably close it seems

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-03-18T14:44:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2022-03-18T19:29:30+00:00

Negative: 1. Physically weak 2. Overly emotionally sensitive 3. Behaviorally passive 4. Effeminate (according to cultural gender roles) 5. Powerless

Positive: 1. Physically strong/capable 2. Emotionally stoic/stable 3. Behaviorally assertive 4. Masculine (again, gender roles, whatever they are) 5. Powerful

Toxic: 1. Physically oppressive? (schoolyard bully) 2. Emotionally unavailable/Dismissive/Avoidant to connection 3. Aggressive, 4. Hate the feminine 5. Overbearing/Oppressive/Controlling

All of the negative and a guy will be seen as pathetic or of no character. Toxicity is when none of the negative is accepted at all, and men are shamed or disrespected for any of it present. The positive is just balance, which may be natural for you or may have to be developed. Idiots will confuse "positive and balanced" as "toxic," like this article that states working out should be abolished.

ffandyy · 2022-03-19T12:01:33+00:00

This is fine, but don’t label men toxic that want to be manly men, that’s where I take issue.

briiiana1122 · 2022-03-18T16:04:00+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Pickle_Juice_Can · 2022-03-18T16:19:21+00:00

From the comments, it's apparent barely anyone here knows the definition of toxic masculinity

flapperfemmefatale · 2022-03-18T16:47:32+00:00

Seeing as I don't find traditionally masculine men attractive, a man I value wouldn't engage in toxic masculinity. He could be a target, though.

blondie-- · 2022-03-18T16:55:53+00:00

Toxic masculinity- demands to be treated a certain way.

High value- treats me in a way that makes me want to treat him the way he wants to be treated.

At least, that's my opinion as a woman.

PlayfulLawyer · 2022-03-18T16:57:33+00:00

High-value men are rare, toxic masculinity is not real that's the difference

juicyjuicery · 2022-03-19T04:35:49+00:00

Confronted about why you’re not the boss at your current job? I’m sorry but I know exactly zero women who would ask this or assume you should be unless you are actually complaining about it and saying you should be boss. I’ve known many women friends who’ve pressured their partners to leave dead end jobs they never shut up about and decide to stay at for 10+ years…. A bit different than “why aren’t you the boss”

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Slipthe · 2022-03-18T15:14:14+00:00

Toxic masculinity is aggression as an expression for emotional distress, sexism, sexual violence, hatred of homosexuality.

Healthy masculinity (HVM) is being able to address people disrespecting you without aggression or violence, being decisive, confident and assertive while still being compassionate.

Raju1461 · 2022-03-18T15:55:13+00:00

Power: This is the assumption that men must work toward obtaining power and status (social and financial) so they can gain the respect of others.”

If this is part of toxic masculinity, we all should strive to be more and more toxic and more masculine.

Prize-Thought-4205 · 2022-03-18T16:26:27+00:00

Think of some super powerful and privileged white dude who is interested in sleeping with a women he deems as lesser than himself on the hierarchy, if the women rejects him and doesn’t want to sleep with the guy like all the other girls do, he may turn extremely aggressive, violent & try to socially harm her or attack her in a different way. He might talk about her to people behind her back very negatively. He might use all the power he has to try & make her life worse in that environment purely because of his male ego & not being able to take no for an answer or never being denied anything in his life so being too egotistical over it. If he just lets it go he feels it threatens his masculinity, and tons of men out there have a whole ton of insecurities that can manifest in VERY damaging ways, ranging from plain rape to sexual harassment to just locker room talk about girls they’re having sex with. Men always want to have sex with better & better women because they think it determines their value & masculinity, ignorance & insecure people thinking.

Super-Peoplez-S0Lt · 2022-03-18T16:26:57+00:00

The whole HVM nonsense is also a product of toxic masculinity.

goatismycopilot · 2022-03-18T16:36:21+00:00

I don't think men really care whether they are viewed as engaging in toxic masculinity or not as long as they are getting what they want. Lots of men here in PPD self identify as assholes or sexist and think it is funny or entertaining especially if it upsets women.

I think they care about the distinction when they are not getting what they want. Or they care when they see other men getting what they want and they are left out.

Men in PPD also really don't care what women think or they care when what the women here think echoes their exact opinion. So I can say what I think the difference is and the men will disregard it.

I think a man can be HV in some situations and not in others and appear very different depending on their context. So I can think of a view men I work with who I do not like because I have caught them in lies or they have tried to throw something on me that I was not involved with. But I am sure to their glassy eyed SAHM wives they are Gods where as I think they are assholes.

Very few men are consistently either but they often like to think of themselves as one or another for the ego boost. Lot of men are fine with negative attention and negative outcomes if they percieve they can mitigate circumstances.

2022-03-18T16:38:23+00:00

The toxic is an adjective. It's specific masculine traits and behaviours that are toxic to themselves and others.

A bunch of men beating each other up on the rugby pitch is masculine, but it's not toxic.

A man starting on a randomer in a pub for no reason other than to prove himself is toxic masculinity.

LUCKYMAZE · 2022-03-18T16:46:34+00:00

LOOKS

jdmki · 2022-03-18T16:53:08+00:00

Attractiveness.

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-03-18T17:36:49+00:00

I don't know any women who would interrogate a man like that. it sounds like you went out on dates with very shallow women who had poor priorities.

I don't really think there's any value in trying to access who's more to blame. Everyone has to some extent internalized toxic masculinity, women and men. It's often in our expectations and assumptions.

ohheyhi99 · 2022-03-18T18:07:20+00:00

Toxic Masculinity has to do with how you behave and think.

In the dating world, High Value Men are mostly made up of assets like good looks and social status. Their behavior only matters insofar as it doesn’t stop them from being valued and attractive to women with options. High Value Men’s behavior can be good, mediocre, toxic or even evil.

squeamish · 2022-03-18T18:31:06+00:00

The attractiveness level of the man in question.

Rough_Collections · 2022-03-18T19:04:03+00:00

This term is the most archaic thing in existence; we might as well go back to the Salem Witch trials or Inquisition when women were considered the wicked sex. Atleast those idiots had zero science to refute their delusion. There is no such thing as "toxic masculinity." There is only toxic behavior that we have known about for thousands of years. (Women, men, young, old, fat and fit, able-bodied and challenged, gender fluid & traditionalist, can all engage in toxic behavior) The fact this person was able to genderfy toxicity shows how mentally lazy we have become and how badly higher education has failed our society by making a mockery of the greatest creation of the Western World, the Scientific Method.

Caring_Cactus · 2022-03-18T19:16:01+00:00

If we had to blame anyone, I would assume the patriarchy? It's such a closeminded box meant to strip people of their agency and autonomy because someone said a man/woman had to be a certain way, and I would say it also created some toxic femininity if that's a thing.

Lateralanouncer · 2022-03-18T19:25:57+00:00

Like most feminist arguments, they contradict themselves. I would argue that toxic masculinity and femininity are doing the opposite of a nuclear family as that creates a toxic society. Toxic men are generally brought up without a masculine roll model. Prisoners, for example, are brought up by solo mothers, and lower economic social groups have lower marriage rates. etc. etc.

WinchesterSXP · 2022-03-18T19:26:19+00:00

"This is the assumption that men must work toward obtaining power and status "

So what women want?

2022-03-18T19:34:18+00:00

Toxic masculinity is the belief that the traits defined by a culture as masculine, either from nature or nurture, are the only traits a man is allowed to have.

A high value man is too subjective to mean anything, but usually refers to a dude strutting enough traditionally masculine traits to reach some point of status or achievement.

hufreema · 2022-03-18T19:55:03+00:00

Toxic masculinity is when people dislike how you do man shit and being a high value male is when the manner in which you do man shit is attractive and appealing.

RepresentativeSwan1 · 2022-03-18T20:23:11+00:00

The latter are physically attractive.

EugeneCezanne · 2022-03-18T21:00:30+00:00

There's nothing wrong with being strong of successful. There's nothing wrong with being "masculine." The toxicity comes in when one tries to adhere too strictly to particular, exaggerated and limiting interpretations of masculinity means.

DeJuanBallard · 2022-03-18T21:56:31+00:00

If you don't measure up, you can't sit with us. It's that simple, call ot toxic, or whatever , life has never favored the weak.

JediGuitarist · 2022-03-18T22:11:59+00:00

If she’s attracted to him, he’s a high-value man. If she’s not, it’s toxic masculinity.

Commercial-Engineer3 · 2022-03-18T22:45:47+00:00

Amy Morin should change her name to Amy Moron.

toasterchild · 2022-03-18T22:54:22+00:00

Toxic masculinity is the insecure version of masculinity. The version where someone needs to lash out and fight over the slightest insult. The person who needs to control everything and get his way or he will throw a fit.

You can be tough and strong without being toxic.

CatchPhraze · 2022-03-18T23:39:40+00:00

High valuewmen take care of themselves. Toxic masculinity men are afraid the proctology exam makes them gay.

It's the difference between the hot guy who works with his hands and hikes with his dogs and is very manly. Then their is the drunk football fans with shaved heads who are also very manly but tend to be a menace to those around them.

Male competitive drive that established in socially acceptable and value building ways is hvm.

Male competition that displays in antisocial ways is toxic.

42nanaimobars · 2022-03-19T01:14:51+00:00

I think both men and women should aim to be physically strong. We should aim to be empathetic (within reason). We should aim to be assertive.
Showing emotion and accepting help is not feminine. Showing happiness is a good thing. I also think that it can be beneficial to be stoic (to a degree). We need to accept some forms of help while declining other forms of help. For example, it’s good to accept help from a doctor when your leg has been broken. On the other hand, it’s bad to accept your buddy’s offer to copy their homework.
People do not need to work towards obtaining power and status to gain respect from others. It could help though.

pokemin49 · 2022-03-19T02:13:01+00:00

Insert Pam Beesly "It's the same picture." The only difference is the context of whether or not the man is in a relationship with the woman. Then all that "toxic masculinity" just makes him a hot guy.

ClaraBow01 · 2022-03-20T02:58:59+00:00

Toxic masculinity is when masculine ideals are harmful. Toughness and power are not inherently toxic unless abused. I think generally men are to blame for it though it’s more of men in power. I also think men are the ones most effective in solving it.

Arnold_Incelinator · 2022-03-20T20:14:12+00:00

attractive masculine = hvm

unattractive masculine = toxic

Title	What is the difference between toxic masculinity and high value men?
Author	Puzzleheaded-Lab-165
Upvotes	91
Comments	512
Date	March 18, 2022 2:26 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/th2lq8/what_is_the_difference_between_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-the-difference-between-toxic-masculinity.1106976 https://theredarchive.com/post/1106976

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