CMV: the gas lighting needs to stop

DrStranges3rdEye · 2024-08-06T08:40:33+00:00

I've got a small penis. Women have all decided that was a deal breaker for them. What do people recommend? Therapy all the time. Change my mindset? Cool. My physical issue is still a deal breaker for most women. Another set of advice "go to the gym". My body gets in better shape. Cool. My physical issue is still a deal breaker for most women. Safe spaces for men who are at the bottom of the pile don't exist, instead you're lectured about how the outcome is all your fault because you didn't do A B and C.

I can't change your view. What you've wrote is spot on.

krackedy · 2024-08-06T01:09:59+00:00

You can't always tell what is holding someone back just based on photos/profile so it's hard to give actionable advice.

Maybe you're attractive enough but just in an area where you aren't the right demographic.

Maybe you are more socially awkward than you think.

Maybe you are boring.

There's so many possibilities.

Apps fucking suck. You're just a face on a screen in a sea of 100s other faces.

a_minty_fart · 2024-08-06T01:31:49+00:00

It isn't "gaslighting".

People are unique and want different things.

The problem that people have is that they see their preferred demographic as an amalgamation of the experiences they've had. And they usually remember the worst parts of those experiences.

Worse, those unsuccessful with their preferred demographic look for reasons as to why others are the problem rather than saying "what about myself do I need to improve or change to get better results" because change and the admission of inadequacy are hard things to do.

RP philosophy tells us that people have their own wants and that, unless you are providing value to someone in a relationship (personal or otherwise), they aren't going to want to be in a relationship with you.

petellapain · 2024-08-06T20:20:36+00:00

A man can update his wardrobe, take up a dozen hobbies, go to therapy, shower and get a haircut while doubling his respect for women. After all this he will still be told he is not entitled to so much as a kiss on the cheek from anyone ever. That's the magic of bluepill advice

weenieandthebutt · 2024-08-07T10:00:59+00:00

The main issue with the gaslighting is that any guy who isn't successful is made out to be some raging incel misogynist etc. Not only are they're unattractive but they're also made out to be inheritly evil as if it's down to a character flaw or moral failing.

I believe looksmaxxing is the next best thing a man can do whether it's lift weights or trying to experiment with a particular fashion/haircut that works best for you.

The only women who may just about empathise with a man's struggle are those who've constantly been ghosted or having to make that dreaded first move.

Siukslinis_acc · 2024-08-06T09:58:39+00:00

I always give this challenge to people, I am completely open to self improvement with the caveat that the person provides me with specific and actionable. I will give them my photos, my profile and a list of things I have tried and done.

To give actionable advice one needs to see you interacting with people IRL. So maybe a video filmed by a third party where we can see how you are interacting with the other person. Photos, your profile and list of things you have tried and done don't give the full picture.

You might be doing things that you aren't aware of that are making the person uncomfortable (like you are not aware what facial expresions you are making when you are talking). You might be mumbling, your body language could signal that something is off, you might be giving uncanny valley feeling, you might be attracted to people who aren't attracted to you and not be attracted to people who are attracted to you.

inherentlyvalued · 2024-08-06T03:17:34+00:00

If people have no advice to give you they aren’t gaslighting

danielbasin · 2024-08-06T02:02:24+00:00

Specifically it is that women's standards aren't high, in fact they are rock bottom and men who do struggle dating suck so much that they can't even meet those basic minimum requirements but there is hope, self improvement despite it often times being undefined, vague, unactionable or something that has already been tried countless times and failed.

Absoulety fucking true!!!

I always give this challenge to people, I am completely open to self improvement with the caveat that the person provides me with specific and actionable. I will give them my photos, my profile and a list of things I have tried and done.

No one has taken me up on that offer, at most I get one basic suggestion that was already tried multiple times and that's that.

I have no issues with whatever standards women hold, just stop the gaslighting and if you think there is something that can be done via self improvement, I am all ears and I am sure most men are just be actually specific and engaging. Don't just tell me I suck and give me self improvement riddle.

Yep, I can vouch for it!

The ONLY TIME I got results was. ..wait for it!....

WORKING OUT and building MUSCLE! That doesnt mean you have to be a bodybuilder but at least workout to be like a collegiate swimmer or a rugby player, either of these two is ideal.

Incels and other men reading, clipboard this post. I am serious!

Dont listen to womens advice in general. Go to the gym! Build muscle. It's absolutely bullshit that they dont like muscular men(exceptions of a few, like unattractive women,teenagers, and overweight women,as they dont have much options excluding teenage women)

Second, work on extroverted traits and dressing in style

OP, there is no changing your view as its correct.

Pathosgrim · 2024-08-06T22:43:30+00:00

Abandon your morals. Lie, cheat and steal your way into success. Your predicament is unfair so why play fair in an unfair game?

Nellylocheadbean · 2024-08-06T03:11:59+00:00

I don’t understand what men want women to say. Men wouldn’t be happy with the answer regardless.

If women were to say “you’re ugly & short so stop trying” men wouldn’t be satisfied with that answer and women need to give men a chance.

If you tell men to self improve, work on things in their control , they’re not satisfied with that answer because it doesn’t guarantee results even though nothing is ever guaranteed.

There’s no winning

Corbast7 · 2024-08-06T01:07:59+00:00

I think a huge part of the miscommunication here is that the TRPers seem convinced that all women’s standards are too high because we all just want to date men for their looks and money, meanwhile the women saying “the bar is in hell” are talking about men who refuse to develop their emotional intelligence and relationship skills.

As long as y’all keep believing that all women are lying to you when we say we don’t all want Chad’s looks and money, hardly anything is going to change.

Inb4 “ya but women only want emotional intelligence from chaaaad”

Whiskeymyers75 · 2024-08-06T03:04:08+00:00

The standards are wild to me considering the rate of female obesity.

berichorbeburied · 2024-08-06T01:06:18+00:00

I can give you advice on self improvement.

Good is not good enough.

Progress is not enough progress

Enough is not enough.

So you may be doing everything “right”

But as I’ve said before attraction and sexual attraction works on a threshold/barrier level.

You have to cross the threshold or barrier.

It doesn’t matter how much “progress” you’ve made to that threshold/barrier.

Until you cross it most women won’t care.

They won’t tell you that.

But I learned that through reverse engineering and looking through formulas and etc

So theirs advice.

It’s true women lie.

It’s true their advice isn’t helpful.

But self improvement is the pinnacle of male advice.

Any other type of advice WITHOUT self improvement is just female advice.

Istg

operation-spot · 2024-08-06T01:15:54+00:00

I just don’t know why folks thought they didn’t have to improve themselves in general? If you look at your life and don’t like it why wouldn’t you want to change it?

Setting a caveat of actionable advice puts the onus on them rather than yourself which is the whole point of self improvement. If you can’t look at yourself and see the problem that’s part of the issue and that’s okay. When someone gives you advice, take a moment to think about what they may have meant, what their motivations were, and decide how to move forward from there.

I say this with no malice but are you neurodivergent by any chance?

Fabulous_HonestTea · 2024-08-06T01:29:30+00:00

Don't just tell me I suck and give me self improvement riddle.

You don’t “suck” and there’s nothing you need to “improve”. You sound like a genuine, self-aware, intelligent young man. You’re perfectly normal.

And part of being perfectly normal as a man is being absolutely invisible to women. They are physically attracted to a very small minority of men. If you were born genetically gifted enough to be placed in this minority, then that would be weird.

But you’re not weird, you’re statistically average. And as such women have zero interest in you.

MistyMaisel · 2024-08-06T02:22:12+00:00

Most women's standards aren't high. Struggling in dating is normal. Being unable to find anyone isn't. All these things can be true.

A lot of good advice will include failure. Skills aren't typically one and done situations. Gotta keep trying even when it fails pretty often.

It's a lot of self improvement, some patience, and a touch of luck never hurts.

If you're putting yourself out there to get lucky consistently, then you covered luck.

You don't sound patient with the process or the people, so that may be an area to work on. Yeah, a lot of people are asshats, but some people are nervous and putting their foot in their mouth. There's no loss to giving the benefit of the doubt when you're this committed to the end result.

In terms of self improvement: you come off as demanding, intense, and controlling to the point of scary. I'm sure you're somewhat better in less hostile environments than this, but I'd still bet a dollar it's somewhat obvious to women. Try to work on being more open, easy going, mellow, and go with the flow.

Additionally, don't match with women you aren't attracted to (obese). It shows poorly on your character and self esteem. Don't entertain them at all.

Comfortable-Dare-307 · 2024-08-07T00:27:23+00:00

Women do gaslight men a lot. But its usually in an already established relationship. Women complain about men not communicating, but yet, they never communicate their wants and needs. It's always "you should know what I want". Or we should read vague and useless signs of interest or disinterest. Men don't pick up on emotional cues as good as women. If you are uncomfortable, I'll tell you like I used to tell my toddler, "use your words".

Solondthewookiee · 2024-08-06T02:58:04+00:00

despite it often times being undefined, vague, unactionable or something that has already been tried countless times and failed.

Not tailoring advice to individual strangers on the internet is not gaslighting. Someone tried to make that same absurd argument last week.

I am completely open to self improvement with the caveat that the person provides me with specific and actionable. I will give them my photos, my profile and a list of things I have tried and done.

Cool, nobody knows anything about you. You actually have to spend time around people to get to know them.

There was a thread in r/AskMen awhile back where they asked people "why is your friend who is unsuccessful still single?" and pretty much nobody said "hypergamy," "80/20 rule," "delusional standards," or any of the other usual shit. It was things like, "he is morbidly obese and pursues Instagram models," "he is an utterly miserable person to women," or "he constantly sabotages himself."

Turns out the people who know these struggling men have a very different view than the struggling men.

just stop the gaslighting

People not kowtowing to your world view is not gaslighting.

ScarletRedShadow · 2024-08-06T07:07:20+00:00

Well the thing is, your issues aren't actually women's problem.

So men should stop acting like they are.

If you have issues dating Ok sure. That's not women's problem and complaining to women sbout it doesn't make it their problem.

MyLastBestChance · 2024-08-06T01:19:26+00:00

If the women you want don’t want you, you’re shooting above your league or outside of the niche of women who might be interested in you.

You’re choices are:

Keep trying (and FFS stop whining about it, if it’s that awful then choose a different path, otherwise suck it up buttercup).

Re-evaluate what you’re looking for (and FFS don’t whine about how you’re too good for what you can get or treat the women who do actually want you badly).

Improve to be as close as possible to the kind of man the women you want are looking for (and FFS don’t whine about how hard it is or how unfair, you chose this path so suck it up buttercup).

Give up (and FFS don’t whine about it, just find happiness in other ways).

I guarantee that posting the same whining every week on Reddit isn’t going to improve anything for you.

Pristine-Molasses-23 · 2024-08-06T08:33:58+00:00

Tee hee just get a job, shower regularly and don't watch Andrew Tate all day? Maybe stop being toxic and needy and entitled? Btw women have it hard tooooo

There people who made a hobby out of giving shitty dating advice to struggling men are cancer. It's not impossible to selfimprove into a gf but the difficulty level is like getting a university degree and you'd have to do all the research yourself all while "dating discussion from male perspective" is an unacceptable topic for most of the polite internet

Electrical_Novel1156 · 2024-08-06T02:01:41+00:00

You max out your attractiveness and then do all the other shit really about it. If you aren't 15%BF and below you get there. Get a stylist. Get a haircut and beard that complements your face. If you're into them get some tattoos.

After that you work on the concept of game which is really just being good socially and a fun flirt. There isn't that much super-specific advice here because it's personnel. I personally can teach a guy to be a funny flirt but that doesn't work for everyone.

It's not that vague. The reality is that it won't happen overnight or even that quickly it takes months and for some people even a couple of years to get to the point where they can get and keep the attention of attractive women. The average woman in the US is fat and boring, so if your "low standard" is in shape, attractive and fun then you're going after women who are high value. Same way if you're a fit well groomed man you're also above average. It just doesn't feel like it as much because a certain cohort of men have such non existent standards they will dumpster dive for a lay and that messes with what people think they're worth.

Jaded-Worldliness597 · 2024-08-06T01:18:35+00:00

The classical Greek philosophers identified 3 different types of love that men should pursue.

Eros, which is the love you get from a sexual partner, typically a woman but to the Greeks also young boys and men could be in this category. This was the lowest and least important type of love.

Philial love is the love between brothers and men. This was believed to be the foundation of civilization. The bonding of groups of men coming together to change the world, conquer nature, and topple great powers.

Agape love is the love of the spiritual realm... the love God has for man, and man has for God.

-Shes-A-Carnival · 2024-08-06T02:30:55+00:00

why do you all keep talking to or arguing with womrn about all of this

obviousredflag · 2024-08-06T08:07:33+00:00

So, how high is the bar? How high are the standards? Where is the cut off point for men? 70% of men are in relationships currently. 15% do not want to be in relationships currently. That leaves 15% of men who are looking for relationships but are not currently in one. Of those 15%, most will find a relationship within the next months/years, or have been in relationships in the last months/years. Where the fuck is the bar, that keeps men out of relationships? Also, there is ZERO evidence, that relationship qualification has a bar. You can find a man in the lowest percentiles of desirability be in relationships.

You literally don't have to meet ANY bar to be able to get a relationship. If you personally fail, that is due to your personal choices and circumstances.

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2024-08-06T16:14:51+00:00

The fact that no-one wants to be your personal, unpaid life coach does not mean self improvement is ineffective or that anyone is gaslighting you.

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Pedro_Lopes_Mateus · 2024-08-06T02:49:12+00:00

Ok, first of all, tell me what you have going FOR and AGAINST you in terms of looks/status/money.

Obs:Lookswise, there are 4 pillars for men; d-size, frame, height and face.

Patrickstarho · 2024-08-06T18:40:16+00:00

I am willing to help

Gogol92 · 2024-08-06T21:25:15+00:00

What are the action items you have taken from the feedback you were given?

Difficult_Falcon1022 · 2024-08-06T23:22:32+00:00

Alright then - maybe you are just ugly.

Sad-Engineering9688 · 2024-08-08T03:47:52+00:00

Yes, I understand that when women talk about the bar being low they are talking about emotional availability, not cheating etc. and yes, i’m also aware these women are mostly talking about men they find very attractive, but i also don’t think people are just saying you suck just because you struggle with dating dude. No one here really knows what the issue is as you’re a complete stanger on the internet, and honestly man, i know this hurts to hear, but average guys just aren’t that desirable. Women aren’t lining up to chase/date average men. Yes I also know that this applies to average woman as well, shit sucks brother, but there are women out there that will date you, you just need to put in much more effort than the higher echelons of attractive men that these women are usually talking about. It sucks, trust me I know, but life isn’t fair, and there is more to women as well. I’m saying all of this as an average man too. You can’t let it make you bitter and angry.

Level-Carrot-1157 · 2024-08-08T04:49:25+00:00

The issue is that you argue with people about this online

Nobody here is really sincere

letmein_96 · 2024-08-08T20:01:00+00:00

I’m a therapist and dating, relationship dynamics are a huge part of my practice. Careful evaluation is needed by both men and women. I do agree that it is not fair to simply say do better. There is nothing to be gained by making statements, such as “the bar is low or men suck.” Every situation is different and advice should be tailored to it.

I am open to providing anyone with my opinion or advice.

PSSDscience · 2024-08-09T06:08:46+00:00

You have to understand that women aren't purposely gasligting you. They simply just have a very poor grasp on actual reality -- especiallly when it relates to things they haven't personally experienced.

I just got out of an argument without my hardcore feminist sister who somehow doesn't beleive that men are expected to pay for dates in the U.S. They litterally have no idea what they are talking about, and the sooner you disregard everything they say the better.

Stargazer1919 · 2024-08-15T23:18:34+00:00

I haven't seen a single person here use the word "gaslighting" properly.

xapollox_2953 · 2024-08-06T06:30:02+00:00

men when they see an "ugly" man in a relationship with an "attractive" woman: 😡🤬😡🤬😡🤬😡😡😡🤬😡😡🤬 men when women don't want to date "ugly" men: 🤬😡😡😡🤬🤬

Maryclitmas · 2024-08-06T08:54:15+00:00

The point of dating is that you’re supposed to figure it out yourself.

matten_zero · 2024-08-06T09:33:10+00:00

It doesn't though. Most of this is subconscious and advantageous. Why would anyone in their right mind stop "gaslighting" you if they benefit from it?

Y'all gotta learn how to play the game better.

flipsidetroll · 2024-08-06T09:40:43+00:00

Dude, people can give you advice, you can work on self improvement till you are a billionaire world leader and look like a GQ model, but if you have a personality that rubs people the wrong way, you’re gonna suck at dating. You are clearly super combative. Yet you lack the ability to see any flaws in yourself. If someone is constantly angry, blaming women for everything, and refuses to listen to advice because wuuuut how can it be you, do you really think that’s attractive? Maybe you are boring AF. Maybe you have a weird squeaky voice. I know loads of men who are average nice guys who are in relationships.

What you are describing is not gaslighting (so maybe you are dumb AF). It’s just advice you won’t follow or disagree with. Very different. And you think challenging people to fix things for you, somehow proves your point? “I’m too lazy to follow advice or I tried and it didn’t work so now it’s up to you guys to do it for me”. Can you imagine (insert some wealthy entrepreneur here) gave up because people didn’t see his vision? Or they told him he wasn’t worth it?

Most people have a life. Why the fuck should they drop anything to help you with the attitude above? Maybe you were spoilt and now can’t do anything for yourself or take criticism. But the only gaslighting going on, is what you tell yourself.

Sophiatab · 2024-08-06T14:22:32+00:00

There's no gaslighting. We give you the correct advice all the time (respect women and treat them as human beings not sex objects), but men refuse to listen. Women have been screaming this at the top of our lungs for decades, but men refuse to listen. Men refuse to make even the mildest effort to be tolerable (not likeable even just someone we could tolerate living in the same house with).

Saddestgirl49 · 2024-08-06T15:31:57+00:00

Bare minimum:

No porn/use of sex workers.
Not promiscuous (less than 5 previous partners)
No ADHD/Autism or personality disorders.
Not obese or severely underweight (can still be a little overweight/underweight)
No history of violence/cheating or abuse in relationships.
No criminal record.
Has or job or in some form of education.
Wants to be in a serious relationship and not 'mess around' for years not committing.

And I'd say no age gap bigger than 3 years for women under 30.

Most men can't even meet these basic standards so yeah, I'd say the issue is men.

apresonly · 2024-08-06T15:04:11+00:00

that women's standards aren't high

disagreeing isn't gaslighting

we think our standards are low because men can't meet standards like "is nice to me" most men would rather have a relationship with women where they neg and "banter" than to be sincere and nice. we are socialized very differently.

Men struggling to date are already at a low only for someone to run up, slap them and tell them they suck and told to improve themselves in some vague manner.

women talking isn't running up and slapping men.

I am completely open to self improvement with the caveat that the person provides me with specific and actionable. I will give them my photos, my profile and a list of things I have tried and done.

teaching men how to have relationships is proof the bar is in hell

No one has taken me up on that offer,

your mom and dad should have taught you this.

y'all should have learned this your whole lives as you have relationships with your loved ones, friends, classmates, colleagues, etc. if men treated us w the respect and care they treat colleagues, it would be a huge improvement already. ex: if you wanted to see them, you would make a plan for a day and time, that's just normal relationship (all kinds of relationships) stuff.

the problem is men are socialized to not put effort into or value relationships, so they don't learn how to maintain them and keep them healthy, especially with women.

so then women are just supposed to accept this? why?

Lanaglu · 2024-08-06T01:22:41+00:00

the reason why people suggest to self improve is that it works for some people, and it's probably better to focus on how people who will have happy relationships rather then making the people who won't feel better about it.

For me that's more of a priority. and for a lot of people they probably believe that if you just do xyz you will succeed. It's also true that people who believe they will succeed have a far better chance of success, people who get into negativity spirals where they think it's impossible will sink themselves even if they had only minor issues to begin with.

the actual reality of the situation is people just don't know, there are no guarantees of whether you'll be able to get a relationship and no guarantees you won't, though obviously you can do things that are so unlikely to get a relationship your odds may as well be 0.

the advice people give you is just things that tend to work on average, or things that worked for them. And nobody on the internet knows you well enough to give you the best advice that's tailored to you, and most people are biased about themselves to judge their own success and that probably includes you. sometimes competent people think their incompetent and visa versa.

if you've truly given up, then realize the advice wont be for you, it might help someone else, take a break from reading it and focus on other things in your life.

Perfect-Resist5478 · 2024-08-06T12:57:12+00:00

You realize we don’t know you, right? You want something specific and actionable and I can look at your pics & profile and tell you where I think you can tweak things, but I’m not in your interactions. I’m not reading your chats. It sounds like the big actionable thing you can do is get off OLD if OLD is causing you more frustration than happiness.

When you give someone a catalog of options, they’re gonna try to find the best one. And that’s all OLD is- a catalog. If you’re a Honda Accord in a catalog with lambos, BMWs, Audis, even Acuras, you’re gonna get passed over. Not because you’re not a good car, but because the other ones are more eye catching

waffleznstuff30 · 2024-08-06T15:08:56+00:00

It's not gaslighting though.

You cannot control how people feel about you. You can't make someone fall in love with you. You can't make someone magically attracted to you if they don't find you attractive. It has nothing to do with women's standards. People are entitled to their own standards. If they are having no luck maybe they need to reevaluate their own standards maybe need to do some personal development so they meet their own standards.

LongDongOfMojave776 · 2024-08-06T14:44:13+00:00

Sorry fellas. It's clear cut. I wish I could tell you it's anything other then losing weight and working on your looks. If you're balding, get a hair transplant or shave it. I'm sorry boys, but I started getting treated as human when I grew strong and glew up. That's how it is. I fully understand everything and it hurts but you have to. Of course you have to socialize and all that, and social skills matter A LOT. But not unless you pass the looks treshold.

Goodgurusarefree · 2024-08-06T19:43:57+00:00

Men who struggle to get dates aren't trying. That's not gaslighting. It's observable reality. It's too damn easy to get a girlfriend nowadays with social networking being as easy as the click of a button. If they wanted a woman, they'd have one. But they don't really want one. They want to piss and moan and have people feel sorry for them.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-08-06T23:21:06+00:00

The misuse of the term “gaslighting” needs to stop. Advice you don’t find helpful is not gaslighting. Maybe it’s helpful to someone else, or maybe it’s poor advice, but either way, not gaslighting.

Title	CMV: the gas lighting needs to stop
Author	DrunkOnRamen
Upvotes	89
Comments	622
Date	August 6, 2024 12:58 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1el4kkm/cmv_the_gas_lighting_needs_to_stop/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-gas-lighting-needs-to-stop.1526451 https://theredarchive.com/post/1526451

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