Apparently "reading the room" is harder than people here claim it is

gmahogany · 2023-02-13T16:55:41+00:00

I throw out feelers and see how they engage. Yesterday a cute girl was in line for the bathrooms at a cafe, I said something about how all cafes around here have dozens of people drinking coffee and one bathroom. We talked about the neighborhood for a second and she broke eye contact and stopped talking to me. I see her at a table with her boyfriend shortly after.

Had I not talked to her at all, I’d have no chance. Had I jumped straight to flirtation, it would’ve been awkward for both of us especially considering she’s kinda trapped in line.

It’s not the most bold method, but I find it to be the best way to approach women without having to “read the room” perfectly.

RabidusRex · 2023-02-13T13:22:43+00:00

In this way, people can set themselves up in a win-win situation to avoid any embarrassment or bruised egos...... to the detriment of the other party.

It's a defense mechanism for people with low self-esteem.

Keep in mind, ***this kind of behavior is not exclusive to women***

although (in my opinion) it's probably a lot more common with women (in some western cultures) because of the way (western) society is structured.

jobbo321 · 2023-02-13T13:27:00+00:00

Reading the room is incredibly hard because people respond differently when they talk with someone who they're attracted to. I can be a comedian around girls I don't care about but I get shy and nervous around girls I want to ask out. Meanwhile, other men might have the exact opposite.

Same applies to women, some women become scared/shy when they talk with someone they're intested in, while others are very friendly. But still, you'll run into the problem of how she was just "being friendly". There's no guarantee for anything.

Even hitting on them/flirt and see how they respond won't work. A woman who isn't interested could simply say "thank you", just as much as a woman who IS interested.

AreOut · 2023-02-13T13:14:28+00:00

Every woman is different so unless she is doing something blatantly obvious, it' really hard to tell whether she is flirting or just being friendly.

I hate that women are taught that men should be the ones approaching them. I think they should be encouraged to make the first move if they are interested in someone. Yes, they can definitely start by giving subtle hints and being flirtatious, but if the guy doesn't get it, just tell him ffs.

CommodoreCarbonate · 2023-02-13T17:37:30+00:00

"Reading the room" sounds like gaslighting and superstition mixed together.

Hot_Scale_6383 · 2023-02-13T22:03:01+00:00

there is no such thing as ‘reading a room’ the only way to read a room is with your height, face and race lol.

NotARussianBot1984 · 2023-02-13T14:47:39+00:00

The unspoken rule is it doesn't matter.

Approach a girl you think is flirting with you, find out if you're wrong, no big deal if you accept the first no.

I've never had a bad rejection over hundreds of approaches.

The issue is some women will take you approaching them personally as if you're saying they are on your level, an insult if they view themselves as better.

It's like that meme of a hot guy and a ugly guy hitting on a coworker. Former she accepts, the latter she calls HR.

Safinated · 2023-02-13T15:31:50+00:00

If she likes you, she will not cockblock you. Seems simple to me

The problem is, at any point you can give her the ick

And the further you go, the more likely that is

atryhardrooster · 2023-02-13T18:28:48+00:00

OP I’m gonna give you some life changing advice right here. You are not wrong at all my guy. It can be difficult to figure out a females intentions when flirting is different with everyone. I’ve fallen victim to this many times when I was younger. But you have to also take some responsibility here. Reflect on your mindset and why you are being tricked. It’s because you are talking to these women solely out of a sexual desire. You aren’t genuinely taking time to get to know them. This is the way man, you gotta stop thinking with your dick. Get to know her, and you will 100% find out if she is interested in you or not. No need for guessing games.

justforlulz12345 · 2023-02-13T20:36:29+00:00

That’s plausible deniability you absolute toaster. The whole point is that they can provide an alternative explanation if things didn’t go the way they planned. I’ve hung out with women I was interested in over coffee, and when it didn’t go the way I wanted, “we were just bonding as friends”. Same principle.

Early-Christmas-4742 · 2023-02-13T16:29:07+00:00

Are you suggesting that inability to read social cues is not a symptom of autism?

You can tell if it's flirting by comparing it to her behaviour towards other men. Also ramp up your own flirting gradually to avoid her being too schocked.

xxWhiteHorse · 2023-02-13T14:50:59+00:00

How do you tell if a woman is interested in you? The simple solution is that they're not.

The End

Ok-Professional3832 · 2023-02-13T14:58:47+00:00

So you’re saying that there are differences in the way people react and that they can’t all be neatly summarized into the same predictable behavior. Very interesting find.

I would also gather from your insight, that the same woman might even react differently based on external events that have nothing to do with you.

I bet if she just got a promotion, or just got her hair done, she will ALSO act differently than if she just received word that she got laid off and she had cancer.

duskst0ne · 2023-02-13T17:33:57+00:00

The thing with flirting is that you slowly escalate to less and less ambiguous interactions until either it's obvious to both people what's going on, or one person backs off because they aren't into it. Playfully punching someone in the arm is ambiguous yes, so you respond with some similar sort of playful teasing or a flirty-with-plausible-deniability comment and see how she responds.

What did you do to get these responses after these actions? It sounds like you're escalating from mild friendly interactions to very explicit interest way too quickly.

LeaveNCountAlone · 2023-02-13T16:45:13+00:00

If reading the room was simple this subreddit wouldn’t even exist because we’d have nothing to debate.

Silver-Tumbleweed351 · 2023-02-13T14:10:45+00:00

Flirting isn’t a one-sided process. You flirt and wait for the response. If the enthusiasm and intimacy is evenly matched, there is chemistry.

If the response to flirting is awkward or aggressive, it’s over.

Humans aren’t birds. You can’t flash some feathers or build a nest and expect a mate. Conversation, rapport, and chemistry are equally important to physical attraction and competence. And it’s fun, stop thinking of it as a stressful test. Don’t over-invest. Flirting is just light hearted banter between two people who find one another physically attractive. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, no harm done.

TermAggravating8043 · 2023-02-13T13:36:56+00:00

There is where I think empathy comes into place and why generally women are better at reading social signals than men are. Women do a lot more talking with people than men do and they notice the difference between how you speak to people and your body language. When they speak to someone it’s cause they want to talk or their interested in asking something or their just breaking the silence

Unfortunately empathy isn’t really something that can be taught, I’ve noticed it here a lot that guys won’t talk or even attempt to start a conversation unless they feel they can get something out of that person. If they ask a direct question they want a direct answer, if they start a conversation it’s cause they want to get to know you, they don’t bother “wasting” energy unless there’s a result,

Whereas as empathetic people let that energy flow naturally and are the generally nice friendly sorts that makes friends easily Guys that don’t value empathy and don’t use theirs don’t understand this and believe there must be a reason behind this person talking to me and if it’s a pretty girl they assume it’s a romantic connection, then get confused when it’s confirmed it’s not, it’s the “well why are you wasting both our times then”

Shebalied · 2023-02-13T14:56:28+00:00

I am friends with a lot of girls and can confirm that they use those tactics listed about, but will sometimes do them unknowingly. That can make it hard, but if you have someone who reaches out and touches your arm or shoulder. That is a pretty good sign.

dank_summers · 2023-02-13T18:03:50+00:00

The subtleties of Nonverbal / body languange communication is completely individualistic. Therefore you need to determine a baseline of neutral behavior for whomever you are observing. Then with any deviance from the baseline you can make an educated guess.

Only thing pretty universal is open / closed off signaling, which in the context of flirting it would be best to use your time elsewhere if her body language is closed off .

whitehack · 2023-02-13T19:34:02+00:00

This is actually a fair point.

It's not so much that flirtatious behaviour IS hard to see but more just that women DO seem to have a tendency to deny that their flirtatious behavior does mean anything.

On the one hand, this can almost seem like a playful form of gaslighting (denying the truth about what someone's observing when it's obvious?) yet at the same time, both men AND women will agree that men aren't very good at reading nonverbal cues. Here's the problem: when we do call something out, we get told we're mistaken, almost every time. That's obviously going to, over time, lead to a lot of self doubt almost to the point where you think that it's almost impossible to spot "indicators of interest" UNLESS they're extremely obvious.

SOME of these examples don't quite fit/hold up though. Take number 4, for example "because you kept staring at me, weirdo". Really? That sounds quite hostile tbh, not so much "flirtatious". Of course... it DOES depend on... body language, tone, facial expressions. But purely on paper, it LOOKS what I said: hostile, and beyond sassy.

MC-Purp · 2023-02-14T01:01:12+00:00

You’re totally right, but if you don’t try it, you’ll never get any where. Just take the damn risk.

anon-sucks · 2023-02-14T01:53:19+00:00

Women expecting men to read the room is nothing more than a cop out for their own insecurities and inability to approach men.

Men can’t mind read, we can only guess. If a woman is interested she can say something.

CompleteRetard69 · 2023-02-14T03:29:14+00:00

Just ignore their feelings. If they’re uncomfortable around you they’ll let you know after you’ve gotten their number and tried to set up a date.

DionyBigu · 2023-02-14T03:49:16+00:00

Why Most People are jugding OP instead of Try tô help? Where's The empathy?

spunkystoic · 2023-02-14T11:09:13+00:00

I think it's easy to read the room in general. I just think that people - men and women both - like to delude themselves about levels of interest.

And that's coming from a guy that's vocal about men's rights etc.

One thing I do agree with though: this forum loves to gaslight any male comment with "well you're just socially inept..."

...something which I highly doubt is the case for 90% of the guys on here.

ReplyExtras · 2023-02-14T12:42:52+00:00

The whole thing is ridiculous and the only way to win is to not play.

gymbro718nyc2 · 2023-02-13T13:19:18+00:00

You are focusing way too much on what women think and want. You should only be concerned wjth what you think and want. Focus on that and you won't have a problem with women.

obviousredflag · 2023-02-13T13:37:19+00:00

Dude, your autism is the reason you cannot differentiate between flirting and being friendly. There ARE signals.

Also, what did you do after she smiled at you, that made her reply with "omg i was just being nice"? Because ANY socially adequate reaction of you thinking she likes you would have a million more steps where you would either get confirmation by more flirting or correction by rejecting or neutral behavior of her.

FlyV89 · 2023-02-13T15:25:53+00:00

Look...

When a woman likes you, YOU WILL KNOW.

And you won't need to read the room, plan your moves, think too much about what to say...

Hell you don't even need to do the "right thing".

She likes you, and that's all that matters to her.

When a woman likes you, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do.

Same when she doesn't likes you.

So stop thinking too much about one woman and go out there and meet lots of women instead.

LunasLoveChild · 2023-02-13T18:48:10+00:00

It's this simple. "Are you flirting with me?" Or "what do you mean by that?" Followed by actually listening to the answer. If she answers vaguely let her know nicely that her behavior is confusing you. If she doesn't care that she's confusing you, drop her.

Cue personal vent I was once assaulted and nearly raped just because I'm shy and I laugh when I'm nervous. Dude heard all my "no thanks" but assumed because I laughed that I was just playing hard to get. No, fucker. I was traumatized in my past by men and you're setting off a PTSD freeze response, to the point that I spent the next few days having intense panic attacks. To top it off I told my then boyfriend about the incident the next day and he held it against me. I want to slam my head into the wall sometimes when I think about ever being with a man again. Obviously they're all different and some are great but it's a damn lottery and even someone you're so sure is the one can just have you twisted up in a fog of manipulation. Men(and others) themselves probably don't even have a clue what a shit person they are and don't get why they don't have a partner because they "deserve" one and it's everyone else's fault for not giving them a chance.

I'm absolutely rambling now, but fuck it.

I want to be able to be nice to people. I want to look you in the eyes when we talk. I want to make you feel validated and worth something without you assuming I want you to fuck me. So maybe try on the other shoe before pointing fingers at "confusing women" because if you think I want to have a resting bitch face in public or have all this anger and resentment living in me, you're wrong. Literally all you have to do is ask me what my angle is and we can move on.

Edit: removed some personal shit

Affinity4186 · 2023-02-13T18:56:12+00:00

Western women give faux choosing signals to boost their egos. Thanks to extreme radical feminism, they know that most men wouldn't approach them otherwise so they have to give guys bait.

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2023-02-13T17:30:16+00:00

Shot your shots, who gives the f.

Fun_Push7168 · 2023-02-13T18:35:31+00:00

Just do the best you can. Keep it to situations you won't get in real trouble. If you're wrong you're wrong. Contrary to what a lot of women would like you to believe, there's no shame in it.

People try to make it like it's just different people, it's not. The same person will react to the same thing differently based on who you are , where you are and what mood they're in.

High_Pains_of_WTX · 2023-02-13T19:22:16+00:00

OP do you think you are on the ASD?
IMO everything depends on context.

neetykeeno · 2023-02-13T19:24:03+00:00

Well duh... that's just human beings. A man's overt approach suddenly becomes you're fat and I was just playing with you for laughs when the girl says no... a man's flirting attempt with a pretty girl at the bar becomes oh just talking about the football game and grabbing a drink here's your chair back when her seven foot tall well muscled boyfriend gets back from the bathroom.

And yeah dude you are goddamn autistic and you do need to learn to read the room. And ain't nobody got time to explain to you all the infinite variety of possible ways encounters between people play out, and seeing that your interactions turn out well for you is always going to be your problem not other people's problem. Suck it up buttercup, get used to it.

grummthepillgrumm · 2023-02-13T21:08:46+00:00

These are all different ways of being rejected. Rejection happens, it's not that scary. It's generally a good thing if she rejects you because then you can move on and find someone else.

jxjkskkk · 2023-02-13T23:20:32+00:00

Who gives a fuck about analyzing flirtation? Like who actually gives a fuck, just talk to her stop caring so much what she thinks

deadBeefCafe2014 · 2023-02-14T02:38:15+00:00

Society has grown cold to the point that someone being polite is easily misunderstood. Of course, that’s just my take on it.

It doesn’t help that a couple years in lockdown have really damaged people’s ability to communicate in person. The room is hard to read because nobody really knows how to act.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-02-13T15:18:03+00:00

You missed the key calibrating factor: is she in your league?

KayRay1994 · 2023-02-13T15:11:01+00:00

this is exactly why your female friends don’t introduce you to their friends

revente · 2023-02-13T14:43:03+00:00

Dude, fuck looking for signs.

Just approach the best looking girl and try to lead it towards the desired outcome.

There is a fuckton of girls who give signs just for attention, and there is a fuckton of interested girls who qre to shy to signal anything.

Instead for looking for signs approach the most beautiful girl, and if it fails then approach the second- and third-best ones.

TrueEnoughNewsViews · 2023-02-13T13:14:38+00:00

Reading the room is easy: if she doesn’t look at you the way a dog looks at its dinner bowl, she doesn’t want you.

You may be able to lie and convince her to pretend, but she’ll never genuinely want you.

Unfortunately, for average and below men, the women who want you genuinely are almost never the ones you want.

Your choice is typically: date a woman to whom you are unattracted but is genuinely attracted to you, or convince a woman who is genuinely unattracted to date you for access to attention/resources.

This is the hell we like to call dating for average men.

AlBundyJr · 2023-02-13T22:15:19+00:00

I mean all of this response in the nicest, most avuncular manner possible, but it pains me to see people this lost. My body hurts looking this conversation over. Man, this is exactly what the red pill was created for, this sort of pre-2000s level, no social skill, confusion. If you honestly believe this post, I mean, you have to clean out everything you think you know about girls and just start over, because you're literally well below knowing nothing.

Study how IOIs and IODs work. Realize that is reality, and what you think is reality has always been a lie. Unless you're seriously creeping girls out halfway through the process (and some guys do and of course girls always reserve the right to bail on a guy who turns out strange), then that whole list will literally never happen to you your entire life.

New_Relative_8709 · 2023-02-13T15:48:25+00:00

Maybe you never flirted with someone, bcs it is different and very noticible

Ok-Map-7596 · 2023-02-13T15:07:21+00:00

Username checks out

toasterchild · 2023-02-13T17:30:48+00:00

What possible reason would there be to hear these responses? You ask her out or whatever and she says no so you move on, right? You don't say "well you smiled at me" or whatever would cause these statements to come out. If you're so defensive that you have to argue with someone you approached them you shouldn't be approaching.

Learn to fucking flirt and learn to not take rejection so personally.

Green-Quantity1032 · 2023-02-14T00:05:35+00:00

How have ALL of these happened?

do you ask a girl why she did something every time she's showing any sign remotely resembling of attraction?

What if all the signs are together in the same girl? is it still hard to read then?

Don't read - if you like her show the signs yourself, and no one cares it's "creepy" - that's how you get girls, you act.

EDIT:

inb4 incels rage - yes, you have to be somewhat attractive. stop being ridiculous.

Most men I know who DON'T fuck are attractive enough to fuck, they're just not good at being proactive about it.

pending_ending · 2023-02-13T17:03:36+00:00

wowwww women are such characters hehe hawhaw!

also god damn dude you have got to be the most frustrated guy ever. go do something with yourself instead of writing narratives of these endlessly deep and complex creatures that are so impossible for you to understand.

webernicke · 2023-02-13T14:44:54+00:00

Reading the room isn't hard, but it isn't math either. You have to learn to approach it in the same way you might estimate the temperature of water without a thermometer i.e. "hot" instead of 98.7°C.

puddingbike · 2023-02-13T21:31:43+00:00

I'm not trying to sound like an intellectual giant or anything, but this is a pretty lightweight article. It's quite brief built from just 8 sources. I don't believe the author actually provides a working definition for "flirting."

This is a problem because there can be an overlap with a very well-researched topic: nonverbal communication between men and women.

And, this should be definitionally differentiated.

SuspiciousRule · 2023-02-13T22:59:28+00:00

If you can't read social cues then that is autism. Autism is a spectrum, not one thing. You can be a fuctional adult and still be slightly autistic. Just how IQ differs between person to person EQ differs from person to person. Some are extremely good at reading social cues some people are average some are poor.

2023-02-14T00:51:00+00:00

If you're confused.. ask

Due-Lie-8710 · 2023-02-14T10:04:28+00:00

dont outright be blunt, start with a mundane conversation and build up, and if you see interest then move from there, also you have to accept that you will make women uncomfortable, even if you arent doing anything wrong, i think there is a fear of making a woman uncomfortable is something men have to accept and just go with , as long as you leave when she outright say it then it shouldnt be an issue

reddishrobin · 2023-02-14T16:17:35+00:00

Johnny Autism, you have autism in your name so if you are autistic, its not surprising that you struggle with social cues more than most men.

You seem annoyed that the actions of women you have interacted with don't follow the playbook you have read of ways that women supposedly show they are romantically/sexually interested in a man. Women are not a monolith, and as you have found, actions that some women display to show interest are not universal. Women are not a computer program.

Take the advice of people here on trying to gradually build rapport with a woman you are interested in and trying to get her interested in you. It's a process of gradual escalation while taking note of her response at each stage. Any time she shows disinterest, bail. Gymbro has good advice.

Autistic men seem to struggle the most with finding relationships due to difficulty with social skills. Women are really into social skills. Maybe you could find a therapist to help you practice and give you tips to improve yours.

CLyD3_H3ffalump · 2023-02-14T16:35:55+00:00

Didn't say your advice was off base, just trying to help with the delivery.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2023-02-14T18:25:11+00:00

You read the room by making a move and watching to see how it is received.

All of your examples involve the guy being passive.

That's not how it works.

Even when women approach you to talk or whatever, you're going to be the one who has to escalate and see whether or not she's open to the escalation.

The only test of whether a woman is interested is if she keeps allowing escalation. You can have women flirt with you, make out with you, even on rare instances sleep with you, who aren't particularly interested in you.

So stop being a pussy and waiting for women to 'let you know' about making a move. Make the move. Godspeed.

Kobe_curry24 · 2023-02-15T01:49:03+00:00

Basically you have to deal with a lot of women to get good experience with women boom * and no man is born good with women he’s either A very attractive or just socially active reading the room is no different than common sense or saying “man wish everyone was smart “,lmao

Title	Apparently "reading the room" is harder than people here claim it is
Author	Johnny_Autism
Upvotes	175
Comments	358
Date	February 13, 2023 1:06 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1117sop/apparently_reading_the_room_is_harder_than_people/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/apparently-reading-the-room-is-harder-than-people.1218111 https://theredarchive.com/post/1218111

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